Morning Joe - Morning Joe 7/14/23

Episode Date: July 14, 2023

Biden: Putin already lost war in Ukraine

If you and Trump got in the ring, he loves his UFC and stuff like that, right? If you got in the octagon, you and him, who'd win? Come on. Guy's 78 years old. I'd kick his ass. All right, Republican presidential candidate Chris Christie takes talking tough on Trump to a new level there. We've got a lot to get to this morning, including new reporting on who in Donald Trump's inner circle is talking to special counsel Jack Smith about efforts to overturn the 2020 election.

Plus, the party that doesn't want to politicize the military crams its far right agenda into the defense bill. We'll explain what's happening in the Republican controlled house. Also ahead, some star power is coming to the picket lines. Hollywood actors join the Writers Guild by going on strike. And there are conflicting opinions from top scientists and health officials on an artificial sweetener that is in a lot of products from diet sodas to cereals. We'll go through that debate. Joe, you and your Diet Coke. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. Wow.

Let me just say this, Willie. Let me just say this, okay? So, yeah, I've had a few Diet Coke in my day. But let me just say, growing up, growing up, I think we all knew three things. Number one, of course, Willie, we know you never eat, eat a big dinner before you go swimming. Right. Just don't do it. Number two, to never, ever, ever. And MacArthur taught us this. Don't don't get engaged in a ground war in Asia.

And number three, I think we all knew from the first sip of Diet Coke that we had in 1982, we knew it caused cancer. You have a sip of it and you go, you know, this tastes okay, but it's going to probably kill me. But let me have another one. Seriously. We were sitting around having our Pop Rocks and everything else, put down our tabs and our Mr. Pibbs. And then we picked those things up and you drink Diet Coke and you just knew that first sit hit the back of your throat. You go, yeah, yeah, this is this is what killed Elvis.

This is going to take me down. And now Mika, Mika, a health care nut, because she's still because she's a health nut. She runs five, six, seven miles a day. She still drinks tab and she still smokes a Virginia Slims. So she's still like, you know, she's playing it safe. Willie, remember Fresca? Oh, yeah. Fresca's still around.

They still have Fresca. You can still get a tab, too. You can still find a tab. You got to look hard, but you can still find it. Joe, there's so much in there. MacArthur, ground wars, tied to aspartame. That's an incredible connection you made there. The Mr. Pibb reference revealing, like me, you like an off-brand Dr. Pepper as well.

That's fantastic. And when we read this news about aspartame yesterday, Joe, I hope this isn't too bleak, but we began to prepare your obituary, And we've been talking privately about how we're going to handle the news that it's over for you since you mainline Diet Coke. No, stop it, Joe. Let me tell you something. Put that away. I need you to stop. I'm telling you.

I've seen it a long time right now. This is like in the cancer section. He's holding up Diet Coke. Please stop. I wonder how Atlanta feels about that, Joe. What? Let me say, there's no hard evidence. Yeah, I mean, it's just like...

Yeah, exactly. So, anyway, Mr. Pim, that was good. But you always feel like when you're drinking this, you're kind of like, you're living on the edge. I feel like Evel Knievel with every sip I take. Oh, my God. Are you the guy who has the button, and you hit a button, and the Diet Coke comes into your office, or is that somebody else?

I don't know. I remember somebody. That was Trump. That was Trump. But I will say, I'm thinking about that, actually. Okay. I'm going to. I actually bounce back and forth, actually.

I do, really, between Diet Coke. I go, that's not good for me. And then I'll have sweet tea, and then I'll pass out because my blood sugar is too high. And you wonder why your ears hurt. It's a whole cycle. It's really bad. You need to stop with the caffeinated drinks. My ears hurt because I play really loud music, yeah.

That and the caffeinated drinks. Okay. Along with Joe, Willie, and me, we have Pulitzer Prize winning columnist and associate editor of The Washington Post, Eugene Robinson. And here in New York, the circus is in town, specifically co-hosts of Showtime's The Circus. Former White House director of communications under President Obama, Jen Paul Mary. NBC News national affairs analyst John Heilman and political strategist Mark McKinnon is here. You guys look good. It's good to have the circus in town. So here we go. President Joe Biden wrapped up his five day European trip in Finland yesterday with NATO's newest member. Finland

ended decades of diplomatic neutrality in April when it became the alliance's 31st member. The move was also significant because the country shares 830 miles of border with Russia. President Biden yesterday celebrated Finland's membership and NATO's united front against Russian President Vladimir Putin. Mr. President, at this critical moment in history, this inflection point, the world is watching to see. Will we do the hard work that matters to forge a better future? Will we stand together?

Will we stand with one another? Will we stay committed to our course? This week, Finland, the United States and our allies and partners says a resounding loud yes. Yes, we'll step up. Yes, we'll stand together. And yes, we'll keep working toward a stronger, safer and more secure world. President Biden delivered those remarks in the very same room in Helsinki, where former President Donald Trump met with Putin almost exactly five years ago. That day, then President Trump famously sided with the Russian president's denial of interference in the 2016

election, going against the findings of American intelligence. Yesterday, the president drew a sharp contrast with his comments about Putin and the state of the war in Ukraine. Putin's already lost the war. Putin has a real problem. How does he move from here? What does he do? And so the idea that there's going to be what vehicle is used, he could end the war tomorrow. He could just say, I'm out. But what agreement is ultimately reached depends upon Putin and what he decides to do. But there is no possibility of him winning the war in Ukraine. He's already lost that war. Hey, John Heilman, the White House was just absolutely delighted with the contrast. I was

told very early on politics is all about contrast with your opponent. The White House could not have been happier to be in the same room five years later where they believe and most Americans believe, even most conservatives believe Donald Trump humiliated himself in front of Vladimir Putin. The contrast could not have been sharper, could it? Could not have been starker, starker or sharper, Joe. And I think, you know, he didn't humiliate himself. I think even for people who supported or wanted to support Donald Trump, there was never a moment where it was more clear, unfit for office than with that moment.

It was a shock, literally, even for people who thought Donald Trump was off the chain and crazy and intemperate and a lot of things. That moment was, on the world stage, was a moment where a lot of people who were trying to give Trump the benefit of the doubt said, oh, we're in trouble here. And I'd say another thing that I think the White House is delighted with and I'd be delighted if they were to people, you know, banging this kettle drum all day long. Joe Biden is senile. Joe Biden is infirm. Joe Biden has lost his mind. Joe Biden needs, you know, all that stuff. He's seven hours ahead. He stands up there. He doesn't have the press conference went for more than an hour. He's taken hard questions on foreign policy and look pretty good. Great before you gave a great like he didn't have a tough schedule the day before. Right. Tough schedule, tough traffic. He gets in there, does a long press conference. Not only is the contrast with what Trump did five

years ago, just in general, the guys up there handling questions on the world stage. And without really missing the beat, if I if I want to run a tape to refute the absurd notions of Joe Biden's senility or his infirmity, I run this tape if I'm the White House and say that guy is doing better in this space than almost than anyone else around this table could do with this. The economic news of this week and inflation, that's a pretty good double win, win, win, Jen. And I'm looking like what he is, a statesman on the world stage. Yes. So much winning. Just like exhausted by all of the winning. Yeah. And it was it was there was the speech the night before and Lithuania was was commanding the press conference and even to go back a second time to the Finnish reporter who continued to question America's commitment to Finland as part of NATO. And he's like, no, no, let me like let me go back to what, you know, let me go back and correct you.

But I also want to know, does anybody know who decided that the trip would end in Helsinki? Because it was a genius move. You know, that's actually not clear to me if it was the White House that said, hey, I know, let's go back to Helsinki five, five years to the day, same place. It just couldn't be a more if that was, you know, if that was baked from the Nordic leaders themselves, but either way. And still just like so breathtaking that moment from Trump. Like I actually, I still gasp when I hear it. Me too. And that contrast for Biden to be, you know,

not just defending, not just showing American leadership, but also just be so great at, you know, at nailing that speech and that press conference. So Joe, how does he continue this type of momentum in terms of not just the optics, but a real kind of generating a sense of having complete control over the situation? What's different at the NATO summit? Nothing's different. And that's the thing. I mean, I will say this, Mika, following up on what you said a couple of days ago,

that got you in red on the Drudge Report, which is pretty big when they give you the red headline. They do have to schedule him better. They do have to schedule him better. And I thought it was important for them to say, hey, you know what? He's been going night and day. We're going to let him take off for the dinner. Of course, plan that ahead next time. But little things like that make a big difference.

But look at this, Joe, Joe, Joe, look at this. Everything here is tightly produced. It's beautiful. And everything here allows these world leaders to do what they do. And there's no concern about the small things. And I would suggest that what I said that I guess put me in the red is taken seriously when he comes back home, because this president is good at what he does. And these people. No, I just always told people that he's the president's very sharp. If you say something or write something, there have been times he's called and he's refuted it very sharply. I've talked to foreign leaders that have had conversations with him that said that he was on top of every issue. the degree that they were actually some some some NATO leaders have told me they were very

surprised the contrast between the image in the public and the Joe Biden behind closed doors because he is so sharp and he's on top of everything. So much of it has to do with presentation. I will say also for any Trumpers that are saying, oh, my God, they're talking about how we may need to take a rest every once in a while. Please, you're talking about Donald Trump who did nothing but sit in his office and watch cable news all day. The executive time, would we like to get the, well, I'm sure we could go to Mar-a-Lago. He probably has them shoved in drawers, all of his stuff. But Gene, let me just say, if we were talking about style over substance, that would be

one thing. We're talking about style over substance, that would be one thing. We're talking about matching reality with perception. And Bill Clinton had a great saying, which was, if a turtle shows up on top of a fence post, it didn't get there by accident. NATO did not expand the historic links and have power by accident. It was Joe Biden, along with his equal partners, that masterminded this. But NATO allies will tell you they look to America for leadership. He did this. History will record this, whether idiots on the Trump right online want to admit it or not. History is going to report this, that this is this is pretty remarkable. You look at the economy exploding just just like Obama rightfully got credit along with Bush at the end of the term for helping save the economy.

Joe Biden's going to be credited for moving us beyond one of the great economic crises of our time, which was, of course, COVID, post-COVID. It looks like we may have a pretty safe landing here for an economy. And I just say this isn't happening by accident. And if people want to focus on him falling on a sandbag or falling off of a bike. That's fine. But while they're talking about that, Joe Biden's making, you know, Europe safe for democracy. Yeah. Anybody who's spent any time with Joe Biden since he's been in the Oval Office knows that the reality is nothing like the dystopian picture that the Republicans are trying to paint of this, you know, doddering president in his sharpest attack. And, you know, this NATO summit, I just thought, was stunning.

When you look at the NATO expansion, when you look at how NATO now surrounds the Baltic Sea in a way that was unimaginable, when you look at the summit itself, you know, NATO doesn't do anything without American leadership, period. And despite what generations of French presidents would like you to believe, in fact, it is U.S. leadership that shapes NATO and that moves NATO forward. And this is Joe Biden. It is remarkable the statecraft that has led us to this point. And they say, you know, U.S. elections are not usually decided on foreign policy. But I think people just have to give this a look. It's really an extraordinary achievement. And then on top of it, as you mentioned,

the economy, we are having a soft landing, which nobody thought was conceivable. And everybody is, oh, wait for the recession. It's coming. It's coming. It doesn't seem to be coming. It seems that inflation is being tamed. And the job market is roaring unemployment below 4 percent for a historic length of time. This is a record that I think any president would want to go into re-election with. And it's a matter, the campaign is a matter of making the reality shine through the false perception that is being created. Mark McKinnon, as Gene says, an objectively successful trip to Europe with NATO, celebrating Finland's ascension, Sweden being admitted now on the path, and Ukraine getting

security guarantees and the promise that they too someday will be added to NATO. That's three new countries added to NATO just in the last few weeks, potentially one of them being added. Then the economy, inflation down to three percent. That's all the substance. And on the style, if you watch President Biden at Vilnius University two days ago giving that speech, talking about the courage of the Ukrainian people, talking about the American will to stand with NATO, to stand with Ukraine. And if you want to make the contrast, watch a Donald Trump rally in South Carolina. You could ask yourself in that side by side who actually is losing it, as some Trumpists

have said of President Biden. Yeah, well, nothing will more quickly put the age debate behind him than weeks like this. If he can stack up more than that's going to go a long way toward toward his reelection. It's been a fantastic week, both internationally and domestically. So when you look at Republicans this week trying to fight back against Biden, they're just punching air because all they've got left is Hunter Biden, Hunter Biden. They are very focused on that. And far right media outlets as well. They are literally that's

their lead. Hunter Biden. When you got nothing left, all you got is Hunter. OK, still ahead on Morning Joe will be joined by two Democratic members of Congress, Mikey Sherrill and Seth Moulton, on the heels of half Republicans adding several controversial amendments to the annual defense spending bill. Plus, President Biden is criticizing Republican Senator Tommy Tuberville over what he calls his ridiculous decision to block hundreds of military nominations. We'll show you Biden's new comments on that and how the senator is responding. Also ahead, Hollywood actors will be on the picket line this morning after union leaders

voted to strike yesterday. We'll take a look at what it means for the movie and television industry. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back. That's a beautiful live picture of sunrise over the United States Capitol at 622 in the morning. The Republican-controlled House voted last night to include dozens of controversial amendments to the National Defense Authorization Bill. Among the measures, limits to the DOD's diversity initiatives, bans on the military covering gender-affirming care, and the approval to roll back a Pentagon policy that guarantees service members access to abortion. Far-right Republicans also tried to push proposals that would limit America's involvement in Ukraine.

But those failed. A full House vote is expected today. Democratic leaders have pledged to oppose the bill, writing in a statement Republicans have, quote, hijacked what always has been a bipartisan legislation to continue to, quote, jam their right wing ideology down the throats of the American people. That's a quote from the House Democratic leadership. So, Joe, once again here, we can add Senator Tommy Tuberville to the list, what he's doing in the Senate. But House Republicans slowing down this. You've been there many times voting on this, something that happens every year, getting the military the money it needs to do its job. I'm telling you, I was on the Armed Services Committee and pointed there four times.

And man, I can tell you, Mark McKinnon, nothing drives military leaders. Nothing drives the rank and file crazier than people fighting culture wars. basically in these military funding battles and author, you know, whether it's authorizing or appropriating and all they're doing. And John Thune said it about Tommy Tuberville. All they're doing is, you know, they're hurting America's readiness. And how I mean, how hypocritical you have Republicans always saying, oh, our military is woke and weak when we're actually stronger than ever, because Democrats are trying to politicize it and have culture. No, it's it's Republicans that are literally fighting culture wars instead of funding our troops. Yeah, Joe, I mean, they're clawing their way to the bottom in two ways. First of all, on the issue of abortion, which if you saw the Kansas referendum, which is a pretty conservative state, Republicans should have gotten the memo. But clearly they haven't. And at the same time, they're doing it while denying military leadership, which is notion that that the Republicans would be holding up the leadership of the military is so contrary to the conventional history of the

Republican Party. Yeah, John Heilman, it's crazy. It's just absolutely crazy again how politicized this house is has become and especially on an issue like this, especially when you have readiness issues, you're actually not only just driving women away who would want to serve, you're also driving a lot of men whose spouses are not going to want to come with them, not going to want to be a part of this lifestyle. And it seems that the Republicans are doing everything they can to hurt recruitment here. Yeah. And I look, Joe, there's there's clearly some element here of House Republicans having feeling like they have a free vote where it's like, you know, the Senate's not going to do it. We can pass these crazy amendments. The Senate's not going

to do anything. But that then not going to do anything on these don't become law. But that just raises the political question. Jen, we were talking about this last night on Alex's show. I continue to not understand it. They put in this basically, effectively, a ban, effective ban on abortion for women in the military by not allowing them to be able to go back to places where they can get an abortion if they need one. And, you know, it's like we're here in New York state where you've got five or six Biden districts that that Republicans won, crucially won and able to enable them to take control of the House of Representatives. All of those Republican members, all of them voted for this effective abortion ban. I don't get that. That blows me away. It's just like, wait, you guys, how many times do you have to put your hand on the hot

stove? It's like, ouch. That's like a Simpsons cartoon or something where you like, you guys, how many times do you have to put your hand on the hot stove? It's like, ouch. That's like a Simpsons cartoon or something where you like burn your hand, burn your hand, burn your hand over and over again. Like, I don't get how much does your hand have to be on fire for them to understand that this is a losing issue? He brought this up last night and I thought for sure you're getting ready to say the five or six. They have like, oh, obviously those those members of Congress voted against this amendment and they voted for. I mean, you can lose your Congress voted against this amendment and they voted for.

I mean, you can lose your House seat over this amendment. You can Biden. I mean, not only. First of all, America is not with you on this issue. And then you are on top of that. You are putting this extra burden on the military that is already strapped, that is already you know, that is it's doing great. But recruiting is not it's not easy. It's not easy. I come from a military family. The strain on stress on the families, on the spouses, and they're going to put up with all this nonsense. It's chain of command. Tommy Tuberville. Like this is why the military works. And you're taking your very unpopular agenda and then layering it on top of the military. It is like it's nuts to me that they voted for that.

And, Joe, it's just impossible. They couldn't see the ramifications of this, you know, the many layers of ramifications. Yeah. They don't care. They really don't care. They live in their own world. They live in a bubble. They don't care what our military leaders think.

They don't care about the people that are going to be taking our men and women into war, into combat. They don't care about the readiness. They care about appealing to a small slice of their district in districts that are overwhelmingly red already. Again, I can tell you, you go to the Pentagon, you talk to military leaders, they would be so angry when members would use their positions on the Armed Services Committee or in Congress to push this sort of nonsense because it got in the way of focusing on protecting America against threats from China, from Russia, from from from terrorists, all these other things. But, Gene, this has just been an ongoing assault from Republicans over the past couple of years. They trash our military. They trash our military leaders.

They say that we should be more manly like the Russians, ignoring the fact that, you know, our troops are the best. Our military is the most powerful relative to the rest of the world at any time since World War II. But they keep trashing our military, saying they're weak and woke. And so they hurt recruitment in middle America. And they do these sort of things. And they try to social engineer. they do have their social engineering, their their cultural wars inside the United States military. When what is as as Jen said, what does middle America want? Ask Kansas. They don't want a total abortion ban. Ask Kentucky. They don't want

a total abortion ban. Ask Wisconsin. Wisconsin, which had an 1849 total abortion ban. How did that work out for them? A landslide in the most important Supreme Court election in years. They're not listening to America here and they're hurting the military because of that. They absolutely are. There's a definite impact on recruitment. After all, in the military, you don't get to choose where you serve. And and and that that sort of mobility for reproductive health is is important. I think something like, you know, one out of five members of the military is a woman. Plus, you know, you mentioned spouses as well. I mean, this is, this is, the substance of this, if this ever became law, this would be a terrible thing for recruitment at a time when recruitment is not going as

well as the military would like. And so that's the substantive problem. The political problem is it's not just those seats in New York, those seats that Republicans won in Biden districts there. But, you know, I can think of a seat or two in Virginia and other places in the country. And this absolutely will be a huge ball and chain around the necks of those Republicans as they seek reelection next year. It's really going to hurt them. During the House debate over amendments to

the defense bill, Republican Congressman Eli Crane of Arizona brought up a proposal to ban the Defense Department from considering race, gender, religion and political affiliations when recruiting, training, promoting and educating service members. Here's what he said, though, when he took to the floor to defend his measure. My amendment has nothing to do with whether or not colored people or black people or anybody can serve. OK, it has nothing to do with Mr. Speaker and any of that stuff. What we want to what we want to preserve and maintain is the fact that our military does not become a social experiment. We want the best of the best. We want to have standards that guide who's in what unit, what they do. And I'm going to tell you guys right now, the Russians, the Chinese, the Iranians, the North Koreans.

All right, so they took down his words. Let me tell you something. I had somebody ask me because. Yes, they didn't grow up in the South. When I did said, well, you know, is that just what people say behind closed doors? I can tell you maybe in the 1960s, but I haven't heard in in polite society or in Sunday school class or behind closed doors and law firms or anywhere else. People using that term. I only bring that up to say that when he goes on the floor and talks about colored people or using that language, that's something, it's like that sports guy who talked about the Negro League. You know what?

Those words are coming out because obviously they're using it in everyday life. I mean, people make mistakes all the time. That's just a mistake I haven't heard in 50 years in the South. Well, you know, of course, I guess I wouldn't hear it if it were being said. But, you know, welcome to the 2020s and in the in the mega Republican Party. I mean, apparently, because, yes, you're right. If that comes out on the House floor, then clearly this is the way that guy talks in private conversations. And this is the way that

guy thinks, which is, you know, shocking, I guess, to hear it out loud, it sort of it sort of makes you understand and there that continues even all these decades later. I've got to bring this case up again. Jen, it wasn't so long ago that the Republican Party pulled Steve King from Iowa off of committees and basically ran against him to destroy him. Because if him doing things so much more moderate, I hate to even use the word, than what Trump Republicans are doing every day. It's, you know, I'm so optimistic about this country. And, you know, we always talk about the MLK quote that MLK like to say about justice. You know, the arc of history is bending towards justice. They will say over the past seven, eight years, and at least in the Trump wing of the Republican Party, it's taken a massive, wicked, depressing detour. And yesterday was another example of that.

I mean, it's 635 and the Republicans have taken my breath away three times already in this show. It's like when we heard that Trump, the people in the Biden district's voting for the abortion amendment. And then this man talking about colored people. First of all, I mean, I mean, I these guys know Mark and John. No, I have a big facial reaction. But I was like her arms went in the air and me, too. I didn't know what they were talking about. It's just so wild to me. But also, does this man know anything about the American military right now? Because it is I mean, I think it's the most diverse institution in the United States, if not one of the most diverse institutions in the United States.

I was on a Navy ship recently where they spoke. One of the officers there spoke so proudly of the diversity in their ship and how everyone's from a different part of the country and they all make it work and learn from each other. I mean, this man, so not only is it, you know, from the 50s, 60s and racist, but also just shows his ignorance about how the military operates today. That's because he would say, you think that that's laudable diversity. He would say that just proves that the military has become a woke social experiment. That's like that diversity is not to be admired. Yeah, DEI. Those guys are obviously that diverse. You think that's great?

We've got to fix this. But that needs to be, what he wants to say is that, he wants to say that ship needs to be a little whiter. Okay, so we're going to try and take your breath away a fourth time. And coming up, we're going to talk about the DeSantis campaign. Coming up, Ed Luce joins us with his new piece in the Financial Times as the Florida governor works to reassure supporters about the potency of his presidential bid. Morning Joe. Look at that beautiful shot of the White House on this

Friday morning. So down by more than 20 points in a recent poll, Florida Governor and White House hopeful Ron DeSantis is once again looking to calm nerves among his donors. A new campaign memo obtained by NBC News shows the DeSantis team trying to reassure supporters by laying out a plan for the future of the race. The memo is labeled confidential and dated July 6th. It says the campaign will continue its focus on early nominating states and will consider adding more resources to Super Tuesday states in the fall. The memo also argues the only people who could viably win the primary are him or former President Trump. It also previews some tough weeks ahead for Senator Tim Scott, saying

he will, quote, receive appropriate scrutiny in the weeks ahead. This, as Politico reports, some top DeSantis donors are starting to consider Senator Scott instead drawn in by a more traditional Republican rather than a combative, the combative styles of both Trump and DeSantis. Willie. Well, we know they're worried about Tim Scott, for starters. Meanwhile, the Florida governor's team already is looking for a possible reset of its media strategy. A number of sources tell ABC News the DeSantis campaign has been weighing a shift in media strategy, while the governor has largely shunned mainstream media outlets and mainly stuck to friendly platforms like Fox News and conservative media outlets that may be about to change.

Several sources telling ABC News the governor's team is leaning toward having DeSantis begin doing mainstream network interviews and possibly some town halls. The move would mark a stark shift in strategy for the governor's team, whose sources said felt earlier in the year, DeSantis could afford to engage only with more friendly platforms and media figures. A spokesperson for the DeSantis campaign did not return ABC's request for comments. So, Joe, it's going to be a hard pivot if there's a new strategy when you've attacked the media is out to get him, dismissed polls showing you not doing well, saying the media is out to get you and that doesn't want you to become the nominee and then to turn and say, sure, I'll sit down with ABC or NBC or CBS. Yeah, I mean, that strategy works. It doesn't work, though. I mean, his

strategy of shunning the media is a failed strategy and it will never work. And John Heilman, let's let's talk about Donald Trump and specifically let's talk about Donald Trump in this show in 2015 and 2016. You know, people said, oh, Donald Trump's on too much. This bears repeating. We told every presidential candidate when you're out on the road, you want to be on the show, pick up the phone, give us a call. And let me just say, he's a friend of mine. I've known him for a long time. I was begging Jeb Bush to come on the show. Everybody in Jeb's camp, like, no, no. They were so careful. They were so scared. Jeb Bush, so tight. I got to tell you, Jeb Bush, I've said this time and again, one of the smartest guys, one of the best leaders I've seen up close in all my years in politics.

He froze. I'll say it too. Hillary Clinton in 2016, despite the fact we always had great interviews with Hillary Clinton in 2008. Her campaign team so tight. She never came on the show. Sorry, Jen. I remember talking. Remember when you guys made. Hold on, Joe. She's right here.

You're talking about Jen. Remember when you guys made us like fly to some southern state and drive on a dirt road for two hours to sit in a school with her for 20 minutes. Oh, I forgot about that. I mean, that was just, you know what I mean? Like it just come on TV. We were on the phone though. And so let me address this to Jen then and, and, and jump in. She's sitting right here. No, no, no. No, but Jen would always be saying she'd be very polite. She'd be very loyal. And she'd say it's above my pay grade. And because I'm very polite and very loyal, I'm not going to say all the reasons why we weren't able to do your show as much as I would like.

That a girl. I know exactly. Or the circus. I never went on the circus. Not once. But you tried. But here's the bigger point, though. You're right, though.

If Hillary Clinton had come on the show in 2016 early on, it would have been like 2008. It would have been great for her. We would have had a discussion. Her donors would have seen her. It would have worked well if Jeb Bush had come on the show. I mean, we're like free form. We just kind of go. People try out their riffs on our show. Then things work, goes out on the campaign trail. They get calls from donors. They get just just show is a unique situation. Somebody let me just go and let you talk. Bring it home, Joe. Here's the point. All of these people have always been afraid, not just of our show, but of the media.

Now let me bring up Donald Trump. Donald Trump and Lindsey Graham were the only two people that took us up on our offer. And they called. And Lindsey only called a couple of times. But Jen, Donald Trump called like nonstop. I'm here, I'm there. And it made a lot of people angry. And I always call the campaigns and I would say, come on the show. Talk. You don't like what he said. We don't like what he said. Come on, Jeb. Tell us why it doesn't work. Or if not Jeb, I'm talking to Jeb's people or John Podesta. I talked to John. But come on, John, what are you guys afraid of? And it didn't work for them. And Janet's not working for Ron DeSantis either.

This is a very long way of saying, you know, you hate Donald Trump. You hate that he was on the show a lot. Well, he was on the show a lot because he wasn't scared of his shadow. And it made a difference. DeSantis is scared of his shadow and it's killing him, isn't it? I mean, DeSantis is scared of his shadow. And I love that. I mean, it's all here.

The confidential memo, like, first of all, marking the memo confidential that you obviously wrote to link to the press, backdating it to July 6th, talking about resetting the media strategy, saying that telegraphing that you're going to go after Tim Scott, who donors are now saying, well, now they're looking at Tim Scott. Donors, you know, donors think they're controlling events here. They're actually just sort of commenting or observing what's happening in terms of Republican primary, not really looking for an alternative to Trump, whether it's DeSantis or Scott. But like they have it's all of the markings of a campaign that just can't get traction. And the staff is trying to do all the things that the staff tries to do to like reset and show that we can still win this.

And we have an early state primary strategy. This doesn't work anymore. Let me interject one contrast here, right? The great mystery around Hillary Clinton as an example of this was that people, she was great. She could do a great interview. As we saw, she went on Howard Stern. Let's depersonalize it. She went on Howard Stern after she lost, did a two and a half hour long interview with Howard Stern, which was,

she was masterful, masterful, human, empathic and sympathetic. And everybody looked back and said, Howard Stern had begged her to be on the show for two years. She didn't do the show. She went on the show. She was fantastic. So that's, so, but this is the difference. And this, Joe, I think this is the problem is that there's a reason why they didn't want Ron DeSantis to come on this show and to go on a mainstream media shows. They were afraid that he would not be good. That's not why you didn't want Hillary Clinton to come on this show. It wasn't that you thought she couldn't perform. And I think part of the reason why the shift, this shift is a sign of desperation is they hit him because they didn't think he could handle these forums. He doesn't like the press. He had very rarely done mainstream interviews.

They didn't think he had the chops to be able to come on Morning Joe and have a free forum interview or to go on a place where he'd get tough questions. So they hit him because they thought that would be a way to protect him from what he's, from forums that he wouldn't be good in. So now it's like they're being, they're desperate. So we're saying he's tanking in the friendly forums. We've got to do something different. It's a desperation move. And the reason that I think it won't work is because the fundamental problem is still he's not going to perform well in these environments. And so I do think it was a mistake to not have him try.

You can't be a presidential candidate if you can't come on Morning Joe and other places like this and do well. But I think there was a reason why he didn't come on. And it wasn't because this is a lion's den or because places like this are a lion's den, is that they were his new interviews like this in Florida either. Joe, I mean, you saw Chris Christie come on and Mika disagreed with him a lot of issues. We disagreed with him a lot of issues, but he got to say, and I think it was good for Chris Christie. I think it's good. I think it's good for everybody that comes on this show or other shows.

I'm not just talking about our show again. Let's depersonalize it and just other shows. But you know, Mark McKinnon, if they don't think he can hit a curveball, then don't send him up to the big leagues. And by the way, you learn how to hit a curveball in the big leagues by facing curveballs in the big leagues. You got to get your reps in so they don't really have a choice. They never really did. This was a stupid strategy from the start because he's he you know, and maybe he starts out by doing a lot of local radio stations in Iowa or New Hampshire.

That's what I'd do with a candidate and get the reps in. But you can't hide from the press. Well, you know, it's a problem when, you know, months into the campaign, they're finally saying, well, maybe we ought to let people actually see him. And it's the problem, as a lot of people have said about DeSantis, it's not that voters don't like him, it's that he doesn't like voters. And we think about the people that we've worked with and for and covered, Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, Reagan. You can kind of go down the list, Obama.

These are people that love to be out with crowds, love people. And that comes across ultimately. And that's what you want in a president is the people that actually likes to interact with people. And that's a fundamental problem for Ron DeSantis. Joining us now, U.S. national editor at The Financial Times, Ed Luce, who writes for the paper about the, quote, great Ron DeSantis campaign train wreck. Ed, tell us, why is it a train wreck? It's a train wreck because he started with every advantage, you know, money, front runner status in a lot of polls after his reelection last as governor last November, big donors like Ken Griffin, support of the Murdochs,

the support of the New York Post, for example, which called him the future. And he squandered all of that, beginning, of course, with that notorious campaign launch with Elon Musk on Twitter spaces. And his numbers have been plummeting ever since. Their ticket per head, you know, for Hampton's fundraisers for DeSantis has been halved. He's now trading at a deep discount, if you like. And I think that the reason for this is that for all his talk of being a real man and the machismo and this sort of graphic novel superhero image that he likes to project. He has been tiptoeing around the dragon, the dragon being Donald Trump. And you shouldn't you shouldn't tell. You need to show you are what you claim you are.

And there's no way of winning this nomination unless you take down the frontrunner. And so I think he's probably, as all your panelists have just been discussing, fatally flawed anyway. He's not likable. He doesn't like people. He doesn't like unscripted encounters. And I think that's why he's not appearing on Morning Joe and others. But his strategy is also deeply flawed. His strategy needs to recognize that the front runner is in charge of a cult and you cannot take down a cult unless you attack it directly. Might well fail. The chances are he would fail. But the current strategy, he is guaranteed to fail. Ed, would you agree with me? It seems to me that the problem is not really the strategy.

The problem is the candidate. The problem is DeSantis himself. And, you know, we've seen candidates reset their strategy. We've seen candidates get better in the middle of a campaign after they were trailing. Barack Obama did that. And on his way to victory, he was way behind Hillary Clinton, but he changed. He found his voice and he found his momentum. But it just seems to me that DeSantis just isn't the guy who can do that.

Or do you think there is a possibility that he could turn it around? I very much doubt it. I mean, I share the premise of your question. You know, the last thing I see my role as in life is being an advisor to Ron DeSantis as to how to turn his fortunes around. But what we're discussing applies more generally to any non-Trump Republican. You know, let's say Glenn Youngkin does get into the race. And I believe, you know, Rupert Murdoch is now agitating for that to happen. A lot of big donors are beginning to look elsewhere. Let's say that Glenn Youngkin gets in, then the same strategic dilemma of whether you take on Trump and how you take on Trump

and what you diagnose Trumpism to be is going to confront him as it confronts Ron DeSantis. But I share your premise. I don't think Ron DeSantis is a likable or plausible politician. I think that this tendency of his to think that what is really catering to conservative Twitter and not necessarily to ordinary voters, these very sort of contrived cultural positions are too clever by half and belie the fact that the guy just isn't getting out there and persuading voters. Yeah. And, you know, Mika, Ed brings up such a great point and something I don't understand about the Republican Party in general, everything they've got to own the libs, they've got to own the libs. I understand that. But everybody is moving to Florida. He could talk about, you know, Dukakis talked about the Massachusetts miracle.

You know, DeSantis could talk about the Florida miracle or whatever he wants to talk about. But talk about economics instead of like, I'm going to pick one cultural scab after another cultural scab and make everybody bleed out and feel uncomfortable. Yeah. I'm going to do for the rest of America economically what I'm doing for Florida. There's a reason I had the biggest landslide in Florida history. There's a reason why Republicans won from Pensacola down to Key West. It's because we focused on first things first. We got the schools open. We got the businesses open and we got the economy running again. That's what he has to do.

I don't understand, again, all of these stupid cultural battles that Republican Twitter likes. Let me just say this is the mistake that 15 Democratic candidates made in 2020. They were playing to left wing Twitter and Joe Biden kicked their ass. Well, and I just said this is playing to right wing Twitter and it's not working for him. Play for Main Street Republicans and start winning. Trump has right wing Twitter. He has the insurrectionists, the weirdos, the freaks. Get Main Street Republicans who want their businesses open, their schools open and their economy running with low taxes and low interest rates and and less regulation. That's what they want. Do that and start building momentum. That's the contrast to insurrectionists, weirdos and freaks.

The new piece is online for The Financial Times. Ed Luce, thank you very much for being on this morning. It's great to see you. Mark McKinnon and Gene Robinson, thank you both as well.