Morning Joe - Morning Joe 7/19/23

Episode Date: July 19, 2023

Michigan AG charges ‘false electors’ over efforts to overturn 2020 election

Under a Biden administration, Biden-America, you'd expect this. If you noticed recently, President Trump went up in the polls and was actually surpassing President Biden for re-election. So what do they do now? Weaponize government to go after their number one opponent. It's time and time again. The president bears responsibility for Wednesday's attack on Congress by mob rioters. He should have immediately denounced the mob when he saw what was unfolding. Make no mistake, those who are responsible for Wednesday's chaos will be brought to justice.

What do they do now? Weaponize government to go after their number one opponent. The president bears responsibility for Wednesday's attack. Those who are responsible for Wednesday's chaos will be brought to justice. Well, you wonder who will be brought to justice in the Republican Party for dragging the Republican Party to its lowest point ever. A Republican Party that now, because of Kevin McCarthy and others like him, now defend a man, former president, who stole nuclear secrets from the federal government, who stole military secrets from the federal government, who stole top secret classified plans from the federal government to invade Iran. A House speaker who is perfectly fine now with Donald Trump sitting back after launching a riots to overthrow the federal government. Who said that? My gosh, it's so

terrible that I would say something like that. Kevin McCarthy must think that that's the weaponization of federal. No, no, Mika, that's not the weaponization of federal government. And that's not what Kevin McCarthy thinks. Those are Kevin McCarthy's own words. And you will remember, too, when Kevin McCarthy got on the phone on January the 6th and he called over to Donald Trump. Here's a guy that's now saying weaponizing, weaponizing government. It was Kevin McCarthy on January 6th in the middle of Donald Trump's riots, which he started but refused to stop. It was Kevin McCarthy who called the White House screaming, telling him to call them off, to call the rioters off.

And Donald Trump said, oh, it's Antifa. And Kevin McCarthy screamed at him, screamed at him. Other members, he told other members about this call. He talked about this call for quite some time, said, you know exactly who they are. They're your people. Call them off. And Donald Trump refused. So what happened? Kevin McCarthy says they're going to be brought to justice. But instead, he decides to attack the people that actually are trying to bring to justice a man who's stolen nuclear secrets from the United States government, a man who's stolen military secrets from the federal government,

won't return them. And now because this is how sick and corrupt the Republican Party in Washington, D.C. is, now Kevin McCarthy is defending the very man who he said was responsible for these riots. What you heard was House Speaker Kevin McCarthy then and now when it comes to Donald Trump and the January 6th insurrection at the Capitol. We're going to have new reporting this morning on new potential new indictment of the former president. Also ahead, the big lie has real life consequences for Trump supporters in Michigan, with more than a dozen people now facing charges for trying to overturn the 2020 election. I mean, they lied. This is a false electors claim, Jonathan O'Meara, where they're claiming that they're false, you know, that they were actual electors and making an oath to it.

And they're shocked that they're actually going to be brought to justice because they lied about Donald Trump winning that state. They lied about claiming being electors that they could go to Congress. I mean, this entire false elector scheme. My God, it was shocking when we heard about it. But again, it just shows in America, the wills of justice may turn slowly, but they turn fine. And they're going after all of these people who tried to rob Americans of that which is most precious to this country. and that is our own democracy. Yeah, these assaults on the democracy are not being let stand.

And it goes to show the long arm of the law. It's not just been focusing on those who stormed the Capitol on January 6th. The events of the last 24 hours make that clear. Is Donald Trump seemingly about to face charges himself for trying to interfere with that election, for inspiring what happened on January 6th. And now this in the states, these false electors who tried to to to undo the will of the people to put forth their candidate, their candidate who lost and yet tried to cheat the system to keep him in office.

And this is Michigan. There are plenty of other states where one wonders if charges could come to. Some of these are former Republican state officials, others just everyday citizens. But everyday citizens who bought the lie and pushed the lie now will face consequences. Well, and again, you look at other states, as Jonathan said, Donald Trump was desperate to get people in other states to put themselves up to commit perjury, to claim they were the actual electors when they were not. And in so doing, Donald Trump has put even more people in legal jeopardy. Again, you think about all the people right now, the working class Americans, middle class Americans that went to Washington on January the 6th because their president told them that the

election was stolen. He was lying, of course, and he knew that he was lying, but he did it anyway because he wanted to stay in power at all costs. All of those people now in jail. And the question is, are we a land that allow billionaires that fly around on 757 jets that have golf courses all over the world? Are we going to allow them to actually push other people to do the most unspeakable acts to cops, brutalize cops, try to overturn the federal government, trash the United States Capitol, the people's house, the epicenter of freedom across the globe, and let him continue

to go about their merry way. No man's above the law. No, no. And it is about time. Donald Trump is held to account for what he did on January the 6th, just like Kevin McCarthy said he should on January the 7th, just like Lindsey Graham said he should, just like Nikki Haley said he should, just like all of these Republicans said he should, just like Nikki Haley said he should, just like all of these Republicans said he should before they lost their courage. We're also following the latest on the American

soldier who's still in custody this morning in North Korea after trying to bolt across the border. The latest on that. And Israel's president is in Washington this morning after meeting with President Biden yesterday at the White House. He might want to take a trip down to Mar-a-Lago, though, before heading home to recover some of his country's ancient artifacts. We'll explain how they reportedly ended up at Trump's country club. Jonathan O'Meara, you remember that Nazi collector in Raiders ofiders of the Lost Ark? He'd go around stealing. I mean, Donald Trump, like life imitates art. So the Israelis come over. They have some Jewish artifacts. They place them in the White House. Trump steals them just like he steals military secrets, just like he steals nuclear secrets.

And he takes them to Mori Mori Lago and he won't give them back. Yeah, it's not like Donald Trump has any history at all. Hang on to things he shouldn't have and bring them to his Palm Beach resort. This does feel like it's the maybe this is the plot for that new Indiana Jones sequel that's in the theaters right now. Indeed, the backstory here is Israeli officials for a ceremony at the White House scheduled for 2019 brought over a number of ancient artifacts, sacred candles, some of them hundreds of years old. They were at the White House. They were never actually displayed because there was some concern that they may have come from the West Bank. But they were kept at the White House. The pandemic hits. They got boxed up. Eventually, we're supposed to be returned to the Israeli government.

They weren't. They end up at Mar-a-Lago somehow. It's unclear how, but we can hazard a good guess, I suppose. And now a number of seer Israeli officials have petitioned Trump's team, have tried to go to Mar-a-Lago to get them back and have been refused. As Donald Trump has come on to these ancient artifacts, just add it to the list, put it on Jack Smith's docket next. It literally is unbelievable. And yet it is. They want us, the Trump team wants Americans to believe that he doesn't take stuff that isn't his. They want

Americans to believe that the people at the Capitol carrying Trump flags and wearing Trump hats had nothing to do with Trump as to why they were there. And, you know, we sit here and watch. It's almost ludicrous what's happening, although it appears the wheels of justice are turning. Well, finally turning for him again. I just want to underline again, working class Americans, middle class Americans who follow Donald Trump, they're sitting in jail now with their lives, their lives shattered, shattered because of Donald Trump destroyed because of Donald Trump. And he's still wandering around the world. And it's 757 with ancient

artifacts. Also with us, stealing ancient artifacts from Israel, former aide to the George W. Bush White House and State Department, Elise Jordan. Former chairman of the Republican National Committee, Michael Steele. And former U.S. attorney and MSNBC legal analyst, Joyce Vance. And congressional investigations reporter for The Washington Post, Jackie Alimani, is with us this morning. Great to have you all on board with us. Let's dive right into the new developments and the story that broke while we were on with us this morning. Great to have you all on board with us. Let's dive right into the new developments and the story that broke while we were on the air yesterday morning.

Two sources confirmed to NBC News that former President Donald Trump received a letter from special counsel Jack Smith this week, informing him that he is the target of a federal investigation into efforts to overturn the legitimate results of the 2020 election. Those efforts include, but are not limited to, the January 6th attack on the United States Capitol. Although a target letter does not definitively mean a person will be charged, in most cases, it is a precursor to an indictment. Joyce Vance, tell us why this is so significant. Well, it's particularly significant in this case, Joe. It's correct that in a normal situation,

when prosecutors send out a target letter, it means that they anticipate that they're about to charge that individual. In a high profile matter like this, you can be certain that Jack Smith thoroughly considered what evidence he had, what his charging decisions were going to look like before he issued this letter. This guarantees to almost a moral certainty that Jack Smith will charge Donald Trump. What we'll see next will be the typical process where lawyers will try to engage. I think it's extraordinarily unlikely that they'll permit Trump to testify in front of the grand jury if there's any way to restrain him from doing that. But the lawyers will want to have a conversation with prosecutors at justice and perhaps will want to appeal their decision to indict Tamer Garland. That's what the next week or so will look like.

Then I suspect we'll see an indictment. So, Joyce, any more details you can provide, given what we know? And we know that it's very limited, but in terms of what the charges might be pertaining to specifically and where this may all play out. There's been a little bit of reporting about what was in the target letter but we haven't seen that letter itself and even if we have the opportunity to see it expect the details to be pretty sparse prosecutors typically will say we are considering indicting you on charges involving and then they will list a couple of topics here the reporting is that the charges may include some form of a conspiracy, that there may be charges involving violation of rights and obstruction of justice. But the reality is that under the federal principles of prosecution, prosecutors are supposed to charge the most serious, readily provable crimes.

And here there's a lot of hunting. Jack Smith will have to be strategic about bringing charges. He believes he can get in front of a jury without undue delay. Tell us, Jackie, what do you expect to hear from the target letter? And what does your reporting tell you about the story? Yeah, Joe. So we actually have yet to confirm what exactly was in that target letter. I know there's a lot floating around out there about some of the more specific charges and statutes that are listed. We do know, according to our reporting with my colleagues, Perry Stein,

Josh Dossian, Spencer Hsu, that there are multiple charges listed. But again, the exacts of what those span are still a bit murky. We do know that one of them that is most likely included, the conspiracy to defraud, is a charge that has been widely discussed. It's something in 2022 that a federal judge said that John Eastman and former President Donald Trump were likely guilty of committing. But again, the rest of these are still TBD. As for, you know, to just piggyback off of what Joyce just said, essentially, this target letter indicates to us that an indictment could be coming very soon. It doesn't mean that's guaranteed. But if we look at the Mar-a-Lago indictment last time around, there were roughly, I had said 10 days on way too early. I apologize, John, for making that error. It was actually 20 days between when the target letter was delivered to former President Trump's lawyers and when he actually received

that indictment. So we are sort of looking at that time frame. But it's clear that Jack Smith is picking up the pace here. We have been told that his investigators are still actively interviewing other witnesses. They're knee deep in this investigation still, according to those witnesses and some of the lawyers representing them. And that for Smith to roll this out at this time is a bit unusual and suggests maybe he's trying to get ahead of some other potential indictments coming. The last question that we are asking around about is who else has received a target letter? Who else might be receiving a target letter since this is obviously an enormously broad investigation and there were several other key players involved with

Trump's efforts to overturn the results of the 2020 election. Yeah, Michael, still, you and I both have run for office, both been elected as Republicans, politicians. We've been surrounded by Republican politicians. Maybe they're not all saints. Maybe maybe they weren't all saints. Maybe there were a lot of sinners there. But, you. But I must say, looking at Kevin McCarthy now and looking at him after January the 6th, looking at a guy who then was saying that Donald Trump was responsible for cops getting the hell beaten out of them, responsible for the chaos of January the 6th, responsible for riots that attempted to overthrow

the United States federal government, responsible for the trashing of the United States Capitol, for animals going in and smearing excrement all over the United States Capitol, for trying to stop the counting of electoral votes. That same Kevin McCarthy now coming out and saying that it's the Justice Department's fault. He said after January the 6th, these people, Donald Trump, these people must be brought to justice. Now that the Justice Department has somebody who's trying to bring them to justice, they are actually attacking law enforcement. Like I said, we both served. But I must say, I never met anybody like that.

I really never did. I mean, have we really gotten to the bottom of the barrel where it's so bad that you have somebody who knows and who admitted on the House floor? Donald Trump was responsible for trying to overthrow the federal government on January the 6th, who now for political expediency is trying to blame. It's like the sheriff come into town to clean things up, trying to blame the sheriff for trying to clean things up. Yeah, Joe, there are far more sinners than saints in this iteration of the Republican Party. You and I know that well. We've watched people that we worked with, that we, you know, were in the field of politics with side by side, become otherworldly in their view of situations like this. The thing that's the most interesting for me is the transformation. In the past,

our elected officials, in a serious matter like this, Watergate comes to mind, where they would not elevate the politics over the rule of law, the pursuit of justice, doing the right thing, as our mamas used to tell us, right? Today, this iteration of MAGA republicanism is all about elevating the politics over all else, making everything subject to it, because at the tip of that spear is Trump and Trumpism. And so that's what's used now to pierce the veil of justice, to take off that blindfold, as we saw with Judge Cannon in the first Trump matter before her trying to sort of game the system politically or game the system because of your political interest. That is far removed from what you and I remember. Certainly, when you came into Congress in 94, it wasn't it wasn't about elevating the politics. It was about elevating the policy.

So, even when you look at these issues from justice and crime and criminal behavior to policies in the House and in the Senate, the politics is what animates the narrative now. And there are no objective players. There's no one who's sitting back looking to call the balls and the strikes. Everyone from Kevin McCarthy on down has their finger on the scale to tip it towards Donald Trump. Yeah, and it's all about power. I mean, it's all about trying to get as close to power as possible. And, you know, yeah, we came in in 94.

There are a lot of positions we took that maybe a lot of people didn't like, even though they were very popular. Most of them were very popular in the polls. But after four years, we had a leader that we didn't think was adhering to what he promised to do. And so we ran him out of town. People are like, you don't do that. Well, we did do that because it was like you said about the policies. I remember saying to Newt at the time, I said, listen, if my own mother was running this place, like you were running this place, I would vote to send my mom home. Hopefully she'd have me for Thanksgiving dinner, but

if not, well, she would just, she'd just have to deal with it. And I said that to say this is a turkey, Joe. Yeah, I just say, you know, this wasn't personal. It was about what we promised we were going to do. And that's what is that's what's so foreign here. Elise, you two also worked with Republicans, served with Republicans. Now we have a Republican Party. And again, we knew that it was corrupt. As John Meacham said, we knew how bad things were. Elise, is Elise there?

Yeah, she is. Elise. Show Elise. Thank you. Elise, we now have Republicans who are attacking the Justice Department because they tried to get nuclear secrets that were stolen back in the White House. They were trying to get military plans, secret military plans get top secret military classified documents back in the White House. the Justice Department and the FBI for doing what Kevin McCarthy told them they needed to do. And that was to bring the perpetrators that caused the rioting and the cops getting the hell beaten out of them on January the 6th. What did he say? Not bring them to Mar-a-Lago to get a picture taken, smiling like Kevin McCarthy did, but to bring the perpetrators to justice. And he said on the House floor,

we've got the tape that Donald Trump was responsible. Joe, when you're attacking the refs, I've said this many times, when you're attacking the referees, you're losing the gamees, you're losing the game. And if that's the best argument that Republicans have right now, and frankly, it is the only argument they have right now, given how many charges have piled up against Donald Trump and how much evidence is out there in the open to see, not just with January 6th, but you look

at the charges in Georgia where there are recorded phone calls that are so damning for Donald Trump and his defense of election malpractice down there. They are only blaming the refs because that's the position. That's the sorry position that Donald Trump has let them in. And this is a ticking time bomb for the Republican Party that maybe Donald Trump is going to skirt past justice and he'll evade justice just as he has in the past so many times. And maybe he'll still be able to run for president as the Republican nominee. But he could blow up any day given all the legal problems that are swirling around him. And that is the huge, huge risk that the party is taking by going forward with him as the as the likely nominee.

Well, and again, they're choosing to defend again. They're choosing to defend a guy who stole nuclear secrets. They're choosing to defend a guy who stole who stole military secrets, who stole plans to invade Iran in case we needed to invade Iran. They're defending a guy that they blamed afterwards for the riots on January the 6th, for trying to overthrow the United States government, for trashing the people's house, the United States Capitol. They don't have to do that. They can actually select somebody who could win. But for some reason, they won't do it, it's just crazy. Jonathan O'Meara, you wrote the book on January the 6th.

It seems kind of funny not to bring you in here and just put all the pieces of the puzzle together. Kind of like the Red Sox, you know, tried to put the pieces of the puzzle together last night, and they couldn't hit the ball. Yeah, hopefully I'll be more successful than they were. We should note, it was a historic day of offense across major league baseball. A record-setting day of runs scored. Red Sox, eh, we got shut out. But hold on, Jonathan.

In our defense, we were shut out against one of the worst teams in modern baseball history. That's true. It was a bunch of minor leaguers and a couple of folks they pulled from the stands and we couldn't get a run across them. So at least there's that. As terms of where we are, though, trying to go big picture here. I mean, this is, I wouldn't say the culmination because there are plenty of chapters still to go, but this is the byproduct of the big lie. And it shows in some ways, we should take a glass half full look here that the system has is holding. It held in November of 2020. It held some Republican state officials. Some judges did the right thing. Even some members of Trump's administration.

It took them to the 11th hour, but they did the right thing. And though January 6th, 2021 will always be one of the darkest days in our nation's history. People have started to begun to be brought to justice. As you've been saying, Joe, for too long, it was only those everyday Americans who actually stormed the Capitol, listening to Donald Trump's words that inspired them to commit violence in his name. But now we're seeing others too. Those electors in Michigan, we'll talk more about that later, and now potentially Trump himself and the people around him. It is being held accountable, seemingly on the verge of being held accountable for months and months of lies that threatened our democracy like never before.

And as we discussed yesterday, as the news broke, maybe in some ways this will still be the hardest case to prosecute. Maybe this will be the hardest one to deliver a guilty verdict. But it's also the most important one. The man should be charged for what he did. Yeah, consequential. And you mentioned Michigan coming up. We'll talk with Joyce Vance about the felony charges against fake electors in Michigan. Also, the latest in the Mar-a-Lago documents case.

Also ahead on Morning Joe, what we're learning this morning about a U.S. soldier detained in North Korea. Plus, with his poll numbers lagging, Ron DeSantis returns to mainstream media to defend his 2024 presidential campaign. Also ahead, President Biden out with a new campaign ad featuring an unlikely spokesperson. Or did they do that to him? Yeah, they did. It was they didn't have to do any editing. No, they just played what she had to say. Pretty good.

We'll show you that. She's a pretty good writer for Democrats. Yes, she ought to take that up. And later this morning, Speaker Emerita Nancy Pelosi is our guest on Morning Joe. We'll be right back. a lie that I couldn't see. Some things you have to believe, but others are pencils puzzling. As top law enforcement officer, I am obligated to hold bad actors accountable whenever and wherever such violations occur, irrespective of party affiliation. Free and fair elections are the foundation of our system of government

and one of the most important principles in our democracy. People should have confidence in our election system and a belief that their vote counts. Our democracy must be perpetually defended by every generation of Americans. You know, this has to be really kind of confusing and disconcerting for these Trumpists that you actually have elected leaders. Right. Who don't let you lie about being electors to the United States Congress for the purposes of actually representing the state of Michigan and who they actually voted for. And so, again, these are basic things.

I think what we're going to look back on years from now, and you're starting to see again, we've been talking for about a year now, maybe nine months, about how gravity is returning. That actually all the things that we thought no longer matter and no longer matter in this country did matter. Gravity is returning. I think a lot of people are going to look back after Trump is gone years from now and just to say, how did these people how did they ever think they were going to get away with that. I know. They're going to ask, what was going on between 2015 and 2021 that made these people think they could act like thugs, beat the hell out of cops,

try to overthrow the federal government, lie repeatedly, be part of this scheme all because they wanted to get close to a former reality TV host who had lost election after election, after election, after election. They will ask, well, why did they do it? And we still don't have that answer. I think it'll be a really those those questions sound like a farce, but I think that's going to

be a really important discussion as to how we got here and what were the different factors involved over the course of decades. And these people who these people who knew better, who knew they were breaking the law, who knew they were lying, who knew they were trying to undermine democracy, not not some generalized concept, but democracy in their own state, trying to undermine the will of the people who had just voted pretty comfortably in Michigan, by the way, not as close as the race was before, but voted for Joe Biden instead of Donald Trump. And you had people who actually plotted and schemed to take away the popular vote, like they were in Turkey or Russia or in Saddam Hussein's Iran.

It's just crazy. So that was Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel announcing felony charges for 16 people who worked to overturn the state's 2020 election results. The defendants allegedly met in the basement of the Michigan Republican Party's headquarters and signed multiple certificates claiming they were Michigan's duly elected and qualified electors for the presidential election. Some of the electors then tried to deliver the documents to the state Senate, but were turned away. Each of the defendants faced several forgery related charges, which could result in multi-year jail sentences. The 16 people include a state Republican National Committee chairwoman, as well as a former state Republican Party co-chair. Unbelievable. It really is. And Joyce Vance, again, gravity returns.

People, people again, you just wonder what people were thinking at the time. They said, you know, we're going to lie about being electors. We're going to try to under, you know, Donald Trump has this keystone cop plan for fake electors, which apparently is going to end up snagging a lot of people, not only on the state level, but possibly on the federal level. But what's going to be the outcome for these people, again, trying to take away the vote from their fellow Michigan residents. So Attorney General Nessel, I think, said words that will resonate throughout this historical conversation that you and Mika have been talking about this question of how did the fever dream last for so long? You know, Dan Nessel says democracy has to be defended perpetually.

And so she's put down her markers that she intends to be part of that process. And she's starting in classic prosecutorial fashion at the bottom of this particular food chain, not of the entire food chain where we've seen rioters and protesters prosecuted by the attorney general in the District of Columbia. But here we see where it began in Michigan with people who tried to overturn the outcome of the election, something like close to 155,000 more votes for Joe Biden than for Donald Trump. But you have folks engage in a clear scheme of forgery and election crimes. And Nessel makes an important point. She says, I have to prosecute this case because I prosecute forgery every day. And I prosecute people who try to fraudulently obtain absentee ballots. And if I didn't prosecute these people, would it be because they were well-connected political

actors? You know, in some ways that makes it worse. We'll see that as the evidence in this case evolves. These were people who understood what they were doing, who knew what was going on, who were asked to conduct themselves with great secrecy to conceal what they were about, and who ultimately were living in the same environment

that we were all living in, watching lawsuit after lawsuit be dismissed in courts who said there was no fraud that tainted this election. So these folks, these are what prosecutors would call righteous targets for prosecution. So, Joyce, there is such a long list of legal troubles facing Donald Trump. It's tough to keep track and we should not overlook another major development yesterday, which is from South Florida in the classified documents case and about the timing of that potential trial. And Trump's team, as we know, has argued to say, hey, we shouldn't even have this trial until after the election. And they did raise the point that, well, because there are

so many other matters, including now this January 6th investigation, that it's going to be difficult to schedule one. We know that Jack Smith, of course, is saying we want it to begin at the end of this year. So the judge didn't give us a definitive ruling. But what sort of tea leaves? How do you read the tea leaves there? What do you anticipate? Where do you anticipate she'll end up when she makes her decision in the coming days? So from what we learned in the hearing, the judge was a little bit Solomonic. She didn't seem inclined to go along with prosecutors proposed schedule of a trial in December, saying that that would be out of line with other cases involving classified documents.

But at the same token, she didn't seem persuaded by Trump's argument that this case could not be tried and should not be tried until after the election. She's taken the issue under advisement. She said she'll issue her ruling in a couple of days. We'll know a lot more when we see what month she lands in and whether she's committed, as the prosecutor said, to putting a date on the calendar that even if it's a little bit aspirational, sets a schedule that will guarantee justice can be done here. And Joyce, what do you think that date should be? I mean, in line with other cases, which the judge says she's trying to do. Right.

So classified documents cases, for all of the obvious reasons that we can all readily understand, are a little bit more difficult to do than a regular case. For one thing, those documents will have to stay in a skiff here. That means that lawyers and their clients will have to travel to the skiff to look at documents. Motions that you could normally write in the comfort of your own office will have to be written in the skiff. This complicates the process. It slows things down a little bit. All of that is important. Defendants are entitled to due process rights. But what the judge seemed tempted to do in this hearing was to equate those sorts of delays that are encountered with a more complicated case and cases that have slower schedules, more deliberate schedules because they're complex and they require additional process. Prosecutors say, look, judge, it's possible that we can have a

classified documents case, but one where we don't have to treat it like a complex case, because here the government has done something really extraordinary that we haven't talked about enough, I don't think. Instead of producing discovery to defendants on a normal, somewhat delayed rollout, the government put together all of the non-classified discovery and they gave the defendants a roadmap to how to review it. They told them how they would be using the evidence. That's unusual. It saves defendants a lot of time. It gives them a real leg up. And it looks like we'll see the same thing with classified discovery. That means prosecutors are serious about getting this

case done quickly. Former U.S. attorney Joyce Vance, thank you, as always, for coming on this morning. And amid all of this, Jackie Alimany, what are you watching for moving forward? Yeah, Mika, again, we are on high alert for when this indictment potentially comes down. This would be former President Donald Trump's third indictment related to the January 6th attack on the U.S. Capitol. And what exactly those charges are, we have yet to see the target letter that indicates some of the statutes that Trump might potentially be charged for. We're also looking out going forward for more target letters that were potentially sent to people right now. Rudy Giuliani's lawyers and the lawyer for John Eastman say that their clients have not received target letters. That, of course, could change. We also have been lied to by these lawyers in the past. There are some other key players, people like former White House chief of staff

Mark Meadows, who has been conspicuously quiet and staying out of the limelight. Has he received a target letter? We do know that he has gone in before several grand juries related to several of these different criminal investigations, from the Mar-a-Lago documents case to January 6th to the Fulton County investigation. Is he cooperating or is he someone who also is potentially anticipating a target letter? And then lastly, we're also looking at the order of all of these simultaneous criminal investigations going on. As Joyce noted, a lot of these states ended up conducting their own criminal investigations because they sort of doubted that the Justice Department would move along with charges related to January

6th. So what is going to come first, indictment from Jack Smith related to January 6th, or is Fannie Willis going to get out in front of it as we are expecting some sort of decision with regards to her investigation in Fulton County next month? Joe, Joe Mika, one of the interesting aspects of all of this, when you look at Joyce's analysis and Jackie's reporting, is that the tension that we're seeing play out. You've got, to Joe's opening point about the wheels of justice, finding that groove and grinding through this process, while at the same time, you have political actors that are trying to exempt the politics from that legal process, elevating the politics above the legal process,

making Trump the greatest citizen who is untouchable, giving credence to his pronouncements and his rants, while at the same time leaving by the side of the road everyday citizens, because they're fodder. They're part of the distraction. But what justice does is, nope, we're pulling it all together. We're pulling them back into the conversation. And we're going to show you, Mr. Trump, that while you think these folks are just, you know, pieces that can be jettisoned, they're important pieces that lead to your eventual conviction. And that's the tension I think we're seeing play out between the politics and the law. The Washington Post, Jackie Alimany, thank you very

much for your reporting this morning. And coming up on Morning Joe, smart, brilliant, and perfect. Those are the words Donald Trump used last night to describe the rule of Chinese President Xi Jinping. Are you kidding me? We'll show you that fresh praise for the communist leader that Joe Biden has labeled a dictator. What deals does he have with China right now? Remember, they're in the same building, Trump Tower.

Anyhow, Morning Show will be right back. President Xi, central casting, brilliant guy. You know, when I say he's brilliant, everyone says, oh, that's terrible. He runs 1.4 billion people with an iron fist. Smart, brilliant, everything perfect. There's nobody in Hollywood like this guy. I got them to pay us $28 billion because they screwed our farmers for years. You know, the thing is, he calls she brilliant, smart, perfect.

This is a guy who, again, has clamped down. He's a tyrant. And Donald Trump is calling him smart. Again, we've talked about this before. Republicans used to believe that the government they governs least governs best, right? And they believed in individual liberties and individual freedoms. Donald Trump, and we saw in the New York Times a couple of days ago, praises authoritarianism. He's always loved authoritarians. He loves the most brutal dictators in the world, whether it's in North Korea, Russia or in China.

And that's the thing. You have all of these people. Oh, oh, Joe Biden's so soft on China. No, he's he's called Xi a tyrant. And you look at our military expansion around China. It's been it's been pretty awesome, to be honest with you. But brilliant, smart, perfect is what he says about President Xi. This is also the same Donald Trump who during COVID said that the United States, on behalf of the people of the United States, he wants to thank President Xi for his openness. For his openness and full cooperation with the people of the United States. It's just bizarre. Let's bring in right now the President Emeritus of the Council on Foreign Relations. Richard Haass. Richard, again, it doesn't, you don't have to dig too deep to find

one tyrant on the globe after another tyrant on the globe that Donald Trump has praised. And as we all remember, it was always sort of a nightmare during those NATO meetings and during the G20 meetings where he would constantly be attacking leaders from democratic countries, but always praising the tyrants. He seemed kind of envious there when he equated brilliance with ruling China with an iron fist. That seems to be his approach. And whatever else you can say about Xi Jinping, a lot of flaws right now. The demographics of China are bleak. It's shrinking and getting much, much older. The ratio of working age to non-working age population is skewing very badly. The economy,

economic growth has really plummeted in that country. All sorts of financial bubbles that could pop. And as Joe, you've pointed out several times, the principal effect or consequence of Chinese foreign policy seems to be to have galvanized a regional response against China. And you have these new formal and informal groupings that are essentially wary about the extension of Chinese power. So whatever else you would say, Xi Jinping has clearly created a lot of headwinds for himself. Richard, moving along a little bit, private second class Travis King crossed over into the border voluntarily into North Korea. How do you see negotiations proceeding to bring him home where he faces

a prison sentence? It'll be interesting. If you're in North Korea now, this will be one of those Rorschach tests. If they want to show that, quote unquote, they can be reasonable, they want to give a signal, maybe they're hoping that it could lead to some talks that could reduce sanctions, they will be forthcoming. If, however, they want to continue to up the tension, and they want, it's almost like station identification for the North Koreans, put tension on, do the odd missile test. At some point, we're going to have another nuclear test. They're going to play hardball. So I don't know what they're going to do. This is a decision making system of one, almost like several of these other places. So I think it's going to

tell us where the North Koreans are right now tactically. And this young man, however misguided he is, is clearly now caught up in something much bigger than himself. So Richard, let's continue our tour of the globe and talk about the ongoing conflict between Russia and Ukraine. A lot of good feelings coming out of the NATO summit last week, certainly a note of unity struck by President Biden, the alliance growing. But the facts on the ground remain what they are. And the president even acknowledged that President Zelensky told him that the counteroffensive has been a real, real slog. There also seems like there's no momentum, none, for any sort of negotiated settlement any time soon. And we now have Russia bailing out of the grain deal, which could have real consequences

far beyond Ukraine's borders. Everything you said is spot on. Look, this counteroffensive is encountering all sorts of difficulty. You've got dug in Russian forces who have used mines in enormous quantity and it's slowed things down. Plus, it's churned up, churned a lot of Ukrainian equipment, caused a lot of casualties. So right now, the counteroffensive probably cannot be sustained at this level of intensity. And the cluster munitions in the aircraft are not going to transform that. So that's one thing, too. Yeah, the Russians are pushing back, but they've got limited leverage. One thing is the grain deal. So we'll see how disruptive

that can be. But the bigger story, yeah, this is going to go on. I see zero reason to believe that either side is ripe or ready for negotiations. I think the Ukrainians haven't yet come to the conclusion that they can't militarily liberate their land. Russia clearly is playing for time. It would love to see whether the West fades or obviously looking at the American presidential race. So I don't think, Jonathan, you're going to see serious negotiations of Ira Beddingman until early 2025. I think the Russians want to see the lay of the land. Ukrainians want to see how well they can do. So my guess is no matter how much diplomatic effort there is, I don't see a big payoff probably for another 18 months, which means this, the second fighting

season has to end and probably a third fighting season. And this just means an enormous amount of destruction is still ahead of everybody. I mean, again, if you're Vladimir Putin, you're sitting there hoping, just like Donald Trump's hoping he can avoid prison by winning the election in 2024. Vladimir Putin's hoping he can win the war to take over another country. If Donald Trump wins, he knows Trump will let him do it. Richard, we also have you here, obviously, for your position as Morning Joe's emeritus golf correspondent. We have the British Open coming up this weekend. Excuse me, Joe. Across the pond as the Open. We no longer call it the British Open. I didn't get the email. It's now just called the Open.

Somewhere, I don't know, in our collective youth, it was called the British Open. And now it's just called the Open. Well, and that's what I was saying over across the pond. They refer to it as the Open as in the premier event. We are Americans, though. So let's talk about the British Open and tell you, I must say, it's I love the Masters. It's it's so exciting. But there is something wonderful about the British Open, especially when the winds are blowing about 45 miles an hour. There's rain and everything's going sideways and they get like there is six iron out to like tee off because they know, you know, they're just they're going to punch it. And that's about it. But what are you looking for this weekend?

Well, Rory McIlroy won the Genesis Scottish Open this past week. So he goes into it as one of the favorites. You see John Rahm and others. This course is interesting. Two things. One is when they played out, I don't know, it was 15 or 20 years, Tiger Woods won there. The entire course was brown. There was a drought. This year, the entire course is thick, lush green. And the difference is interesting. The rough is much thicker. It's going to be a much tougher course. Secondly, Joe, I don't know if you've looked at it, the bunkers around the greens and on the fairway, you do not want to get on one of those. You join one of those, you might as well join the witness protection program. You're never

going to be seen again. They are the narrowest, deepest bunkers I have ever seen in my life. On Twitter, there was this thing the other day where someone took six strokes to get out of a bunker. That is that is a bad afternoon. And Richard speaks as a man who has spent some time in the bunker. All right. President Emeritus of the Council on Foreign Relations, Richard Haass. Always great to have you on the show. Thank you for coming on.