Morning Joe - Morning Joe 7/20/22

Episode Date: July 20, 2022

Secret Service says it's unable to recover lost text messages from Jan 5 & 6

Whether they were lost or destroyed because of negligence or willfully, we have yet to determine. But there is a very strong conflict between what we're hearing from the inspector general, the Department of Homeland Security and what the Secret Service is telling the public. A big development for the January 6th committee. It will not get the text messages from the Secret Service from the day leading up to and the day of the Capitol attack. How convenient. Yeah. I mean, come on. It is. I mean, Adam Schiff saying we don't know whether it was through. This wasn't through negligence. You don't you don't burn papers. We'll get there. At Pearl Harbor from correspondence on December 6th, 1941 and December 7th, 1941. You don't burn papers. You don't shred papers.

They know what they were doing. This is just I mean, I think they have to be presumed. You can't presume that this was just something that happens to bureaucratics in Ithumi. Well, the agency's explanation for the, quote, lost data sounds more suspicious this morning. Based on a new timeline from lawmakers, Julia Ainsley is standing by with more on this story. Plus, new subpoenas for supporters of former President Trump. Big news out of Fulton County, Georgia. Nearly a dozen fake electors from one state could face criminal charges for election interference.

Things are heating up. Meanwhile, Trump hasn't given up on overturning the election he lost, apparently. A Wisconsin lawmaker says the former president called him just this month following a court ruling on ballot drop boxes. Also, Vladimir Putin takes his first significant foreign trip since the invasion of Ukraine as the Russian president looks for an ally in a nation also isolated from the West. And the Bidens meet with Ukraine's first lady at the White House. Olena Zelenska will address Congress later today. We're going to cover all of that and a lot more on this Wednesday, July 20th. Welcome to Morning Joe. With Joe and me, we have the host of Way Too Early and White

House chief at Politico, Jonathan Lemire, and former aide to the George W. Bush White House and State Department's Elise Jordan. Good to have you both with us. We're going to start with the Secret Service text messages. The Secret Service now saying those messages that may have been able to corroborate some or even all of the events of January 6th are likely gone forever. They erased them. After being issued a subpoena by the House Select Committee investigating the attack,

the agency had until yesterday to turn over its records from January 5th and 6th of 2021 that it said had been accidentally erased. But after initially being hopeful that the data could be recovered, committee member Stephanie Murphy revealed otherwise. We received a letter today that did provide us with a lot of documents and some data. However, we did not receive the additional text messages that we were looking for. They received four requests from congressional committees on January 16th to preserve records and they had this planned migration for the the 25th I believe of January and nobody along the way stopped and

thought well maybe we shouldn't do the migration of data and of the devices until we are able to fulfill these four requests from Congress. First of all, I've just got to say, I've got to say that Jonathan O'Meara, that's just absolutely outrageous when you have the Department of Homeland Security's inspector general, like also wanting to get the information. And he told the House committee last week that the Secret Service failed to provide him all relevant material for DHS's own probe into the Capitol attack. So National Archives is going to investigate whether there is unauthorized deletion of these text messages. They're going to give the Secret Service 30 days to give them a report.

But, man, I got to say, Jonathan, this is outrageous. Again, let's, to put this into perspective, let's talk about the environment uh around the white house the environment around the capitol right after the president of the united states tried to overthrow a presidential election tried to overthrow a constitutional government and they're and they decide oh you know what now would be a great time to delete the text messages from the day before when he was planning this overthrow of the federal government and the day of when he actually tried to have the mob stop the counting and the tabulation of the electors. This is beyond outrageous, Jonathan. Yeah, here in Washington, the words cover-up continue to be uttered. Yeah.

Continue to be uttered here. This seems to be hard to offer any sort of explanation. It does seem that the Secret Service's efforts to turn over the devices, that this was this maintenance for their phones, that was pre-planned. That's fine. It was scheduled for the end of January. And they had received a request to preserve records a solid week to 10 days prior to that date of migration

was set to begin. January 5th and 6th happened. The request came in 10 days later. The device migration didn't start for the week or so after that. There is no excuse, officials that I've talked to here, saying that there's no excuse that migration wasn't paused and those records weren't preserved. Because to your point, Joe, you're right. You know, we've lived with January 6th for so long, but it's important to remember just the atmosphere and the feeling and the environment around the insurrection in those days immediately after the attack. And there was immediately in the hours afterwards, after the Senate went ahead

and certified Joe Biden's win, there were already calls for not just Donald Trump's impeachment again, but to have a fully comprehensive investigation as to what happened, what led to it, and what went wrong. And the actions of the Secret Service, of course, a part of that. And yet, those records still disappeared, nothing this was the committee is now deprived of important information that would corroborate not just what president trump was up to that day but the circumstances surrounding vice president pence and efforts to evacuate him from the capital from the mob trying to kill him and and they destroyed elise they destroyed the records of the people that were closest to the president. their text messages to get the information on the inside what was going on while this

fascist attempt to overthrow American democracy was playing out. While it was planned on the 5th and while it was playing out on the 6th. I mean everybody in Washington knew the import of those records, of those two days the importance of getting everything together on January 5th and 6th this is this is just on its face it's it's bad faith and I can't believe if they're ignoring a request from Congress I can't believe if they're destroying documents despite what an inspector general is asking that there aren't criminal charges attached to this. Joe, I'm just not going to dismiss at hand, though, the possibility that the government is just completely broken and can't do anything right here. You look at just how bumbling and idiot, you know, this is just idiocracy that a couple of days after something as huge as January 6th that they go ahead with this planned migration. And it really just seems like utter stupidity and the incompetence of a government bureaucracy.

And the fact that this happened and they've known about it for a while and there wasn't any immediate attempt. I think that this has been a year or so that they've known that these records weren't transferred. And yet, you know, now it comes into the focal spotlight. But it takes the urgency and immediacy of these January 6 hearings to make people care about the government and records preservation. It's it's hard to believe. It's hard to believe somebody didn't say we need to make a we need to preserve everything from these days. And, you know, if that was planned and it was something that was, you know, already on some sort of technical calendar. OK, but hold on a second again.

It doesn't matter. Let's put it in context. I got it. Let's put it in context, OK, because it's very easy for us to just talk generally about this, but put it in context. I know. On January 6th, Donald Trump attempted a fascist takeover of American democracy. On January 6th, Secret Service members were ordered by him to go up to the Capitol so he could take part in a fascist takeover of American democracy. Where violence was underway. According to testimony before the committee and corroborated by others.

Donald Trump lunged and grabbed the steering wheel and lunged at a Secret Service member's neck, telling him to take him up to the Capitol. And that that was known within Secret Service circles. And now, of course, the Trumpers who he put in place in the Secret Service to politicize the Secret Service, as Washington Post Carolina Lending reports all the time, now they're denying it. I mean, they've lied about so many other things in the past for Donald Trump. So, no, everybody knows they're lying. But now we're supposed to think that when we have text messages that would back this up from the Secret Service, we're supposed to think it was just a bureaucratic snafu. No, sorry, it doesn't work that way. No, it's too.

They knew. They knew. Again, this was this was like the days after Pearl Harbor. It's like the days after Pearl Harbor. The people running radar burning all their documents at the base there. No, nobody would believe that was a bureaucratic snafu. It was the destruction of documents that could help us better understand what unfolded as a president who had been defeated at the polls, was attempting a fascist takeover of American democracy. He was having a huge fit. There is new reporting to

back all of this up and to this, all of your points from The Guardian, from Hugo Lowell, revealing the Secret Service turned over just one text message to the January 6th panel. He also reports on the timeline that we've been discussing, quote, House investigators also learned that the texts were seemingly lost as part of an agency wide reset of the phones on January 27th, 2021. The sources said that's 11 days after, after Congress first requested the communications and two days after agents were reminded to back up their phones. Come on. Let's bring in NBC News correspondent Julia Ainslie.

She covers the Department of Justice and the Department of Homeland Security. Julia, what more can you add to this? And also, what are the potential next steps here? Are there going to be questions asked by the Department of Justice? Well, the questions that you all are asking are exactly the questions that I think DHS is asking internally today, as well as the Department of Justice. What we understand or what I understand from my reporting is that the question here is what was actively deleted and what disappeared and what could have been done to preserve these records.

As we've now learned, it wasn't just the DHS inspector general. There were now four requests from Congress immediately after January 6th to preserve those text messages. They were flooding in the door. Instead, they go forward with this planned migration. And here's the key here. Agents were told that they could upload material to a server to be preserved. But a lot of people didn't do that. In other words, rather than going through and actively deleting, perhaps it's a step they did not take. But you have to think, of course, there should have been someone actively going through and preserving this, considering the magnitude of the importance of these messages and the

fact that there had been so many requests. As we've talked about before, when you get a request like this, people in Washington know, people in the government should know, you immediately preserve those records if they are in your possession at the time of the request. If those have been deleted as part of routine maintenance during way before the request and they simply weren't in their possession, that's another thing. But if they're in your possession at the time of the request, those are expected to be preserved and that will be looked at.

It's often something that lawyers use in civil litigation matters when they can't get the discovery when they can't get the material that they want through discovery. Also, we did hear from Secretary of Homeland Security Alejandro Mayorkas on this just last night. He was speaking to MSNBC's Tremaine Lee at the Aspen Security Forum. And he said he really defended the Secret Service while saying as little as he possibly could, probably not trying to get out over his skis on this, but saying that the planned migration was planned well before January 2021. But the planning of it aside, of course, as you all point out, doesn't change the fact that these messages appear to have been deleted after those requests came in. That timeline is actually just becoming more and more firm. We saw that first from the Department of Homeland

Security Inspector General and his letter to the committee. And now it's also clear that those requests from Congress came in before the deletion as well. Mayorkas said that he does expect DHS to disclose any more it learns over time. But I think it's frustrating to the committee and a lot of Americans this morning that we now know what we won't ever know. And that's what was in those text messages from such a key agency that was so close to the very inner workings, the president's thoughts, what was happening with the vice president on that crucial day in American history, Mika? What was happening with the movement of the vice president, the attempted movement of the vice

president? What was happening with the president who was trying to join the mob on Capitol Hill? Sure looks and feels like. Well, it doesn't look and feel. It jonathan o'meara i know you have a question uh but but first i just want to say uh again jonathan following following a key event i mean uh you know i've worked i've worked in the government you know you would even as a member chief of staff would would go around if if there was something requested and would tell everybody, hey, get your data together, get your information together, protect it. I mean, this is what happens not only in government. This is what happens in in the private sector when people demand document requests. You you know, if you destroy the information, there's liability attached to it

here. And again, this whole idea, I mean, did the director of DHS really say, oh, well, this is planned, everything's, I mean, I'm sure somebody planned to have tea and crumpets on the White House lawn. Like, you know, between, you know, I'm sure that they plan to have some very nice get together between the president and the incoming president, or they had other things planned under normal circumstances that presidents do when they're turning over the reins of power to an incoming president um it's just not applicable here nothing's applicable here this was this was the first time that we had somebody who lost an election trying to overthrow the government trying to throw out tens of millions of votes so he could, so through violence, he could maintain power. The Secret Service knows exactly what they're doing. Why do we have

somebody running a department who's pretending like there's nothing to see here, move along, move along. T.N. Crumpet's not served for the White House since the War of 1812, but setting that aside, Joe, it is, records here need to be preserved for all matters, even trivial ones. That's the point. Government records have to be kept. And this is far

from trivial. This is a significant moment in American history, and again, even if that data merge was, migration was pre-planned, there was time to stop that data merge was migration was preplanned, there was time to stop it. There was time to save the records. And because that didn't happen, that is why there's such a cover up. And we know in Washington how important it is to maintain records. I seem to recall a presidential campaign conducted not that long ago, all about missing emails. So this is something that is certainly in the forefront of people's

minds here. So, Julia, two questions for you. Can you give us a quick update? Are there any efforts, any still avenues that the committee or other investigative bodies could use to try to restore these records? Or are they indeed gone for good? And whether or not they are, are people at Secret Service going to take the fall for this? Is there punishment coming at Secret Service or DHS for what seems like a cover-up or at least gross incompetence? Well, those are great questions, Jonathan. And on the first, it appears from everything that we're learning yesterday, they're gone, that these messages cannot be recovered. Next steps are really from the National Archives to go through, actually see what happened here, really just to hold the people responsible for their disappearance responsible, figure out exactly what should have happened and what wasn't followed. That's why you

would bring in the National Archives, who are the experts on records preservation in a situation like that. But they're not there to restore the text messages at this point. Those appear to be lost. Of course, the committee has other tools. We've seen how much they've been able to compel testimony. That could be what they may be able to get where people can recall those conversations. But of course, it's not as strong as getting the real in-time, minute-by-minute exchange of information and dialogue and perhaps fears between Secret Service agents on that key day. And then as far as any kind of accountability, yes, we do believe that the Department of Homeland Security Inspector General is going to keep looking into exactly who was responsible for this.

What steps weren't taken? Could it be a matter of negligence? I think that the key of all of this here, maybe this sounds like it's getting too into the weeds, but I actually think it's part of the bigger picture is, is it that there was a step taken to destroy this information or is it that there were steps simply absorbed into this larger agency where a lot of people would argue it doesn't get the oversight that it needs and deserves given its role in American government. Is that what's going on here or is it something more malicious? And we've heard time and time again from DHS officials defending Secret Service agents on the record saying that this was not malicious. But I think time will tell as those investigations continue. Yeah. All right, Julia, thank you so much for being with us. Greatly appreciate it. Yeah. You know, you know, I just don't believe it's not malicious. It is malicious. Nobody's that stupid. Not even bureaucrats that that are the worst of the worst are that stupid. And especially when you have books that have been written

about how Donald Trump politicized the Secret Service. Yeah, well, in a statement yesterday, the Secret Service says it will continue to, quote, scrutinize its records to ensure full compliance with the House January 6th probe, including taking steps such as forensic examinations and other investigative techniques. You deleted the text that would have shown us real time life of a vice president from the mob that Donald Trump was sending his way, tweeting actively. We would have seen that in real time, Mika. It would have all been revealed. And this agency, which needs a top to bottom review, top to bottom.

And everybody on the top level should be fired for this. Everybody, everybody. This is not about the Secret Service. This is not about Donald Trump. This is about American democracy. We need transparency. We need accountability. And the Secret Service decided protecting Donald Trump is more important than protecting American democracy.

I can't imagine. I can't imagine how the Department of Justice wouldn't launch an investigation today. Hey, Merritt, wake up. Merritt Garland, wake up. Wake up. Hey, Merritt, wake up. Investigate this cover up. Let me put it in stark terms for you in case you're afraid to break Marcus of Queensberry rules in boxing. There was an attempted fascist overthrow of American democracy. The people that taxpayers pay to protect the presidency, not Donald Trump, but the presidency, they destroyed text messages that would have taken us to the heart of the fascist conspiracy to overthrow American democracy. This isn't a normal day at the office, Merritt. This isn't a normal day at the office for the head of the DHS. This is a cover-up of a fascist takeover of American democracy that failed.

And it failed in part. It failed in part because some Secret Service members did the right thing. Did the right thing. They didn't take the president up to the Capitol. But now they're lying about it. We need the truth. Well, it's not over. We need the truth. And by the way, one could come by the way, if if if if if Trump's lackeys inside the Secret Service keep lying, they need to be they need they need to be charged with perjury. They need to be convicted. They need to be thrown in jail if they're not going to help Americans get to the bottom of this fascist overthrow of American democracy that failed. Fulton County prosecutors have issued subpoenas to the 16 Trump loyalists who worked as fake Georgia electors in 2020. The move was made public by a court filing from lawyers from nearly a dozen of them asking for a judge to rule against the subpoenas.

The lawyers argue that Fulton County District Attorney Fannie Willis, her office initially said their clients were witnesses, not subjects or targets of the investigation, and that the electors had agreed to voluntarily interview them with the team of investigating election interference beginning in April. According to the attorneys, the electors had the right to cast contingent electoral votes, drawing similarities between the 2020 actions and those made by Democratic electors in the judicially contested 1960 presidential contest between JFK and Richard Nixon. The case stems from a plan devised after President Biden won the state of Georgia and its 16 electoral votes. Some of the former president's advisers created groups of alternate electors in swing states with false

allegations of voter fraud. NBC News has reached out to the Fulton County District Attorney's Office for comment. And it feels, Joe, like things are really heating up in Fulton County. Yeah, they really are. Jonathan Lemire, we've been talking about the inaction and other parts of this conspiracy by the Justice Department. But you certainly can't say that for the DA of Fulton County. That case continues to move forward. It's moving forward actively. They're asking all the right questions.

They're subpoenaing all of the right witnesses. And it appears that right now you at least have one officer, one DA who actually knows what they're doing. Yeah, certainly, Joe. There's been a lot of frustration among Democratic circles here in Washington about the Department of Justice. You don't hear that about the Fulton County D.A. The district attorney there has been extremely aggressive in subpoenaing members of Congress even. Let's remember, we just talked yesterday about how Senator Lindsey Graham is trying to fight efforts there because the phone call he made to Georgia's Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger asking about ballots and whether some should be tossed out. We, of course, remember Donald Trump's call to Raffensperger is at the heart of this particular

investigation. And now the scope has broadened and we're hearing about these alternate set of electors which we should just remind viewers was part of the trump world plan uh all those memos that were being thrown around the white house in the days and weeks after the election to try to get an alternate set of electors seated for the number of battleground states with with the plan being that come January 6th in those battleground states, the Republicans would point out like, hey, we've got some electors that say Biden won. Sure. But we've got these that say Trump won. Therefore, we should just

toss them all out. And if that's the case, well, Donald Trump will get reelected and Mike Pence would certify that. That, of course, did not come to be. It was farcical at best, but still potentially criminal, which is why it's gotten the district attorney's attention. So Senator Lindsey Graham has reversed course and will cooperate with a subpoena by the Fulton County grand jury. As part of the agreement, Senator Graham won't waive his ability to file a potential future challenge. The court filing also specifies any challenges that Senator Graham may make to the subpoena will be made in Georgia. His last argument was made in his native South Carolina, which the Fulton County D.A. said was improper. Senator Graham will answer questions related to phone calls he made to Georgia's secretary of state, Brad Raffensperperger and his staff about Georgia's 2020 election

ballots. And Joe, my question for you is what could be worse than the call the president made? Well, I'll tell you what more do they need? Find me. Find me. Seven hundred ninety five more whatever votes. Yeah, that's what the kids. Specific number. That's what the kids call a smoking gun. Annalise Jordan, you have you have the Georgia secretary of state being told it can't be that hard. Find me one more vote than I lost by find it. And then you have Lindsey Graham calling up the Georgia secretary of state, who, by the way, voted for Trump, lifelong Republican, loyal Republican his entire life. And he just out and out says Lindsey Graham was trying to get me. I had the impression Lindsey Graham was trying to get me to throw out

legally cast votes. It's it's frickin frack. They stumbled into the wrong fascist conspiracy together and they talked to the wrong guy because Raffensperger has the receipts. You know, first of all, Joe, I just have to say I agree with Mika. What else do you need than the president himself calling and saying, can't you just, you know, finagle a few more votes for me? But then you add the Senator Lindsey Graham element and the small town Mississippi girl in me just thinks, wow, this is expensive to be Donald Trump's friend and, you know, plotting to dismantle a free and fair election at this stage with, you know, Graham being called now into Georgia. And he's going to have to, you know, go before the court and talk about what his role was. And, you know, what is the point at the end

of the day for these Republicans who have just sullied themselves to, you know, help Donald Trump's Trump's fantasy, his coup fantasy. And that's where we are. And luckily, Georgia, they have prosecutors and a D.A. who's taking this seriously and they're trying to have accountability and to take it seriously when someone tries to steal an election. Yeah. Well, former President Trump, you guys apparently is still at it, still trying to overturn the 2020 election that he lost, that everybody around the world knows he lost. Well, that everybody inside the White House knew he lost. And they knew at the time that he lost. That's why he started calling

in Mr. Pillow and trying to make up stuff. Yeah. And Sidney Powell, the Kraken lady who Ginny Thomas, of course, thinks hung the moon. That's sort of bizarre and sad. Is a strange

anti-democratic. A strange need not to be seen as a loser. Well, well, when you lose, you lose. Wisconsin's Republican House Speaker Robin Voss says the former president called him earlier this month, urging him to take back the earlier this month man it's july get a life to take back wisconsin's electoral college votes for president biden take a lost when's the last time you talked to the former president president trump uh within the last week in the last week yeah before after he tweeted about before and what was that conversation like that you know it's one of those that it's very consistent he makes his case, which I respect.

He would like us to do something different in Wisconsin. I explained that it's not allowed under the Constitution. He has a different opinion. Then he put the tweet out. So that's it. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. I explained that it's not allowed under the Constitution. He has a different opinion. Trump has claimed the recent Wisconsin Supreme Court ruling that the decision on the use of drop boxes is up to the legislature, not the state's election commission, would have retroactively changed the outcome of the 2020 election. The former president has alleged with no evidence that drop boxes were used in Wisconsin to rig the race against him. He's got a hobby.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. I mean, you know, this is sad. This happens to retirees. Sometimes they move to Florida. They lose. No, they lose meaning in their life. And they're they're wandering. And I think this is some.

But here's the thing., but here's the thing. Okay. Here's the thing. Okay. Some pick up shuffleboard. Right. That's all right. You can pick up shuffleboard.

Bingo. Some do like bingo. I love bingo. Bingo is very popular, and you can get swept up in the excitement of bingo. Oh, my gosh. You really can. Alex said pickleball. Pickleball's another thing, of course.

My friend Jackie loves pickleball. She Alex said pickleball. Pickleball's another thing, of course. My friend Jackie loves pickleball. Well, and this is something, again, that a senior who is on, let's just say, the back nine of his life and has failed at just about everything he's ever tried, maybe they could pick up pickleball. Canasta. My grandparents. Canasta. My grandparents loved Canasta. And what's that, Alex? Mahjong? I don't know. What is that? Mahjong. It's a card game. If you're a retiree in Florida, you know what Mahjong is. Mahjong. OK. If you are. So my grandparents played Canasta. A retiree in Georgia, you know it. Yeah. But you see, these are all noble pursuits in retirement that somebody could pick up.

But continuing to attempt to overthrow American democracy through a fascist takeover of Congress and continuing those efforts, you know, a year and a half later, that's not cool. Yeah. And just if you're a Florida retiree and you're thinking that this is going to go well for you, well, look at your TV screen and understand sometimes you have to let it go. And the immortal words of American poet Don Henley. Yeah. Don't look back.

Well, instead of canastas. Hold on, hold on, hold on. We need the pause there. The dramatic pause. Don't look back. You can never look back. All right. Now you can't be.

I just want to say for the record that if Donald Trump tried to play pickleball, Jackie would beat him. So that wouldn't that wouldn't work. And now, now, now, there are, by the way, yeah, there are people who are dead because of what this Florida retiree tried to do on January 6th. And let me say this. And maybe people will disagree with me. There are good people that are sitting in jail right now. That were swept up by the lies of this man. Who actually believed they were coming to Washington DC to

save American democracy they bought into his license all this firsthand Jim and Tammy Faye Baker they would lie every day on television to get my grandmother's money my grandmother loved the Lord and Jim and Tammy Faye Baker used that love of Jesus Christ to get her social security checks from her. Much in the same way that this man that you're seeing on the television right now used good Americans' love of this country to rile them up,

to buy into lies, to come up to Washington, D.C., and to storm the Capitol because he kept telling them that the election was rigged. And, Mika, the consequences have been deadly. And too many lives have been deadly. For too many, and too many lives have been shattered. And they've been shattered because of that man, because of his lies.

Trump released a statement in response to Voss, which reads in part, quote, I don't know his opponent in the upcoming primary, but feel certain he will do well if Speaker Voss doesn't move with gusto. Robin, don't let the voters of Wisconsin down. Just like he beat Governor Kemp in Raffensperger. Yeah. Okay. That's painful.

He can't let go. No. He can't face it. He just can't let go. 47 past the hour. Tension is running high in Germany and much of Europe as it awaits the potential restart of the Nord Stream one pipeline, which was shut down for more than a week, more than a week ago for maintenance. The pipeline funnels natural gas between Russia and Germany, servicing much of Europe. Maintenance like this has happened in the past, but this year, the closure has raised concerns that Putin will keep the pipeline shut to punish Germany and the rest of Europe for their opposition to the war in Ukraine. Joining us now from Germany,

senior national correspondent for CNBC, Brian Sullivan. Brian, can Putin do this? And what would the ramifications be? Hi, Mika. Yeah, we're at a steel mill here in Langenfeld, Germany, to tell the human story about what's going on. Yes, he could do this. Now, will he? We don't know. The next 24 to 48 hours is going to be incredibly critical, not only to Germany, but to Europe and the world.

Germany is the fourth biggest economy in the world. It's the biggest economy by far in Europe. And steel mills like this require natural gas to heat that metal up to 1,700 degrees, which is what you need, by the way. So that's why we're here. The reality is this. Tomorrow, we are expected, hopefully, to get the Nord Stream pipeline from Russia to Germany back online. But I want to make it very clear, guys, that even if it comes back, even if they restart it, it's not if, it's how much.

It's unlikely Russia's going to restart it to 100% flow. Now, if they go at 40%, which is where they were before, Germany's still in a race to fill up its natural gas by winter. Why do we care in America? We care because this is Putin playing games, playing sort of puppet master, if you will, with Germany, which, by the way, Helmut Kohl, if we're going to go all the way back in time, remember that name, Helmut Kohl? He said we should use Russian gas, but no more than 30%. Over 20 years after that, Germany went to 55% of its natural gas coming from Russia, coming from Putin. Now that gas is at risk, guys. I can't overstate the economic story enough.

I know it's a little bit wonky. The economists put it on their cover. If that pipeline does not come back on tomorrow, and there is no indication of when it will, you're going to see Germany immediately ration gas, shut down industries, businesses, maybe like this one, and force people to save gas for winter. It is a dire and scary situation the next 24 to 48 hours. All right. CNBC's Brian Sullivan will be watching this. Not wonky at all. Thank you. Let me ask Brian. Brian, what are German leaders talking right now to Russian officials? Obviously, there's been great tension between Zelensky and Germany's leaders

because they have forged an economic alliance with Russia that that Zelensky feels is getting in the way of them defending democracy. But but is Germany trying to talk this through with Russia? Not directly, Joe, but I'm going to give you the craziest story that involves everything you just talked about. All right. The Nord Stream pipeline was down in part because one of its turbines, this big engine basically, had to be sent to Canada to be fixed. The turbine is German by Siemens, the German company. They can only repair it in Canada. They had to take it out of the Russian pipeline, but Canada wouldn't take it directly because of sanctions. So they had to go through Germany and bring it back. The Canadian people were really ticked off at Justin Trudeau saying, we've got these sanctions on Russia, and now you're allowing a Canadian factory to repair one of the machines that makes Vladimir Putin's energy monopoly operate.

But then Trudeau apologized. He said, said basically he blamed it on sort of germany germany basically asked us to do it and we want to do it because they need to keep the natural gas flowing vladimir putin has germany on a string guys and he's kind of playing with that tap to see how much the west might give back he's ticked off about germany and europe's and the west support for ukraine with weapon systems and whatever. And he's messing with that tap and putting literally lives at risk in Germany. If there's not enough gas in the winter, you've got people that are already high risk at risk of freezing to death. This is not fear mongering.

This is not my words. Read the New York Times. Read the journal, the FT, The Economist. It's the story. It's happening in the next 24 to 48 hours, guys. All right. Thank you so much, Brian. Greatly appreciate the reporting. My God, so much at stake right now. Let's let's get more insight from a man who knows very well the issues that Brian was talking about and that that all of of Eastern and Central Europe are grappling with right now. Let's bring in Poland's former foreign minister and minister of defense, Radek Sikorski.

He's a current member of the European Parliament and chair of the Delegation for Relations with the United States. Thank you so much, Radek, for being with us. Let's just start. We'll talk just legacies and history a bit here for a second. Angela Merkel has been seen for some time as an era-shaping chancellor of Germany. How much is her legacy damaged by her over-reliance on Russian oil and natural gas? The simultaneous building of Nord Stream and shutting down Germany's nuclear industry was clearly a mistake. But the pipeline, remember, is a secondary issue. The Nord Stream pipeline

should never have been built. There are other pipelines. If Russia wants to sell Germany gas, it can do it through the Yamal pipeline, above all through the pipeline that goes from Ukraine to Slovakia and the Czech Republic. The only purpose of Nord Stream was to enable Russia's war on Ukraine and to deliver the gas directly to Germany. Our response to this should be that the European Union should buy its gas jointly from suppliers, the way we buy uranium. Then we can be the largest customer for Putin's gas and then we can get the security of supply at a competitive price because that's key, too. Yeah, let's let's talk about what's been happening in Poland over the past six months or so.

And let me just start with a personal observation. My daughter went over, worked, worked in Poland and worked on the border, spent about a month over there this summer and was just absolutely blown away by the Polish people, how extraordinary they were in helping Ukrainians and how welcoming they were in in helping Ukrainians uh and and how welcoming they were um talk about what the past six months the past nine months uh has has meant to Poland not not not just as the indispensable ally of of the United States but just for Poland itself, that's been through so much over the past 100 years. Well, it's actually very simple.

We feel that if Putin succeeds in conquering Ukraine, he'll come for us next. So the Ukrainians are fighting our fight, and the least we can do is to protect their women and children. And yes, we've taken in three million refugees into our homes. I had 10 Ukrainian refugees in my home at a certain moment. The men, many of them have gone back to fight and we hope they will succeed and push the Russians out and then the women and children will be able to go back. But yes, you know, solidarity is a word that we value a lot in Poland, and I'm very proud of my nation that we've shown this hospitality to the Ukrainians.

It's incredible. And for people that, this is depressing to me because I'm so old, but too young to remember the importance of solidarity and what happened in 1980, 1981. It was a democratic revolution that began in Poland, and it still is. That solidarity, extraordinary. Go ahead. I'm sorry. Well, of course, Mika's father and my friend and patron, Zbigniew Brzezinski was a great friend of Ukraine and also appreciated Ukraine's importance to the balance of power in Europe. You know, a pro-Western, pro-European Ukraine is the best insurance policy against the revival

of Russian imperialism. Radek, we get conflict—and by the way, if Dr. Brzezinski were still with us, he would agree with you that he was an astute observer. So we get conflicting signals from, whether it's from British intelligence, whether it's from Pentagon intelligence, whether it's from the continent, about how well the Russians are doing. One week we hear from British intelligence that their supplies are being exhausted, that their manpower is drying up, and that they just can't continue this war. And then a week later, we'll hear a conflicting report.

You're on the ground. You are you are you're right next door to it. I know you know so much about this conflict and what's going on this war. What can you tell us? What is your best assessment of the current situation militarily on the ground there? Well, first of all, Russia has already lost strategically. In four months, Putin has caused for two new countries to apply to join NATO and two new countries, Ukraine and Moldova, have become candidate members of the

European Union. As regards the military situation, Putin has lost the battle for Kiev, he's lost the battle for Kharkiv, he has made some incremental gains in Donbas at a huge cost to himself, and he's suffering a logistical collapse of his armies. Look, he's having to go cup in hand to the Iranians to buy Iranian drones? Come on, Russia was supposed to be,

to have a first class army and now, and they can't coordinate their actions at sea, in the air, they don't even have air domination over Ukraine. And Ukraine is now successfully attacking Russian arms depots, their ammunition depots, their command posts. I think the Russians are capable maybe of one more push, and then I think they will have lost this war. So, Radek, at the same time, we're hearing reports that they want to annex more parts of Ukraine, pull a Crimea, the Russians. Is this even in the realm of possibilities?

And how long can the Ukrainians manage dragging out this war, trying to run the Russians down, this strategy? Well, the Russians can announce what they will. It will have no legal standing. We don't recognize conquests in Europe these days. And the issue will be settled by whether or not the Ukrainians can get their provinces, their country back. And that will depend on how much we help them. We are very grateful in Europe to the United States for the package of economic and above

all military assistance to Ukraine. We the European unions are doing a lot too. We just voted in the European Parliament another billion euros for Ukraine. Poland, Britain, others are rallying around to help Ukraine. This will be decided on the battlefield. And if we are to see reforms in Russia, Putin's armies have to be defeated in Ukraine. All right. Former Polish foreign minister Radek Sikorski. Radek, always good to see you. Thank you very much.