Morning Joe - Morning Joe 7/3/24

Episode Date: July 3, 2024

The Morning Joe panel discusses the latest in U.S. and world news, politics, sports and culture.

It sounds like you are not entirely convinced that he has convinced people that he can do it. You're leaving the door open. Well, I am. I mean, it is open. Let's be candid. What we saw can't be unseen. That was an unsteady performance and it raised questions about his physical condition. And that the campaign itself has acknowledged. And it's important for us. We have an obligation as a party who's committed to serving the future of our democracy. I happen to have a lot of confidence that President Biden, when he makes his final decision,

will do it on the basis, as he's always done, of what's best for this country. How can he best serve? So big, big decisions for the president. That was Democratic Senator Vermont Peter Welch criticizing the Biden campaign, saying it should acknowledge concerns about the president's poor debate performance and not dismiss them. This is one House Democrat is now publicly calling for Biden to bow out of the race. We'll tell you who it is and what this means for the party's unified front. Plus, for the first time, we're getting an explanation from Biden about his debate performance and what he's now blaming for his disappointing showing. Also ahead, why Judge Juan Merchan decided to delay Trump's sentencing in his criminal hush money case in the wake of the Supreme Court's immunity ruling. And Rudy Giuliani is officially disbarred from practicing law in New York over his false 2020 election claims.

We'll have all that straight ahead. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Wednesday, July 3rd. Along with Willie and me, we have the co-founder and CEO of Axios, Jim VandeHei, the co-host of MSNBC's The Weekend, getting up way too early, Simone Sanders Townsend and White House reporter at Politico, Eli Stokols, is with us this morning. And Willie, a lot of calls for the president to make calls. And my sources are telling me he's going to make them simmer. But here we go. Yeah, and he's going to sit down for an interview today with George Stephanopoulos of ABC News. All this talk around the president, the pressure now ratcheting up on him to at least

make some kind of decision. And President Biden made his latest and most candid remarks last night about his matchup with Donald Trump during a campaign fundraiser in Virginia. That was last night. The president apologized for his lackluster debate performance, blaming it on his extensive travel in the weeks before. He told the crowd he didn't listen to his staff, then joked he almost fell asleep on stage, adding, quote, this is not an excuse, but an explanation. The president had traveled to France for the 80th anniversary of D-Day in early June, then went to Italy and Los Angeles. He returned to Washington on June 16th. That was 11 days before the debate. The New York Times this morning is taking a look at President Biden in the weeks and months before his debate performance.

The paper reports, quote, Mr. Biden was drained enough from the back-to-back trips to Europe that his team cut his planned debate preparation by two days so he could rest at his house. In the weeks and months leading up to the debate, several current and former officials and others who encountered him behind closed doors noticed he increasingly appeared confused or listless or would lose the thread of conversations. This is all from the New York Times. The paper continues, quote, like many people his age, Mr. Biden, 81, has long experienced instances in which he mangled a sentence, forgot a name, or mixed up a few facts, even though he could be sharp and engaged most of the time. But in interviews, people in the room with him more recently said the lapses seemed to be growing more frequent, more pronounced, and more worrisome.

The Times notes the occurrences, quote, seemed more likely when he was in a large crowd or tired after a particularly bruising schedule. So Eli, you're part of a reporting team for Politico that includes our buddy Jonathan Lemire out with a new piece titled We've All Enabled the Situation, Dems Turn on Biden's Inner Sanctum Post-Debate. So fill us in a little bit more, Eli, on what you're hearing. Thanks, Willie. Well, we talked to more than two dozen people who are close to this administration, close to the senior staff.

And, you know, it's understandable after a debate performance like that, that there would be a lot of frustration and finger pointing. And a lot of that has been directed at the five or six very senior aides, people who have been with the president a long time, who a lot of people throughout the party now are sort of blaming for them being in this predicament, for cloistering the president, sort of trying their best to manage the age situation, to mitigate coverage of that by the media, to really attack coverage of that by the media, and more than anything, to come up with this rationale that he has to run for a second term. One person told us that, you know, that was a conversation that just never expanded beyond the senior group, all of whom would benefit by the president getting another four years in the Oval Office. And that this senior team has been sort of resistant to bringing in other opinions, to changing course. I mean, there's a lot of frustrations, not just about the debate, the decision to do it, how the president was prepped, but also just, you know, with how the president has not

been able to lift his numbers. They look at the people who have been running this campaign for over a year from Delaware, some from within the White House unofficially, and they say, you know, these people have not moved the numbers. Joe Biden has not addressed his deficit. On Thursday night last week, he made things a lot worse. And that is largely because you got the same people cutting the ads, the same people figuring out how they're going to deploy the president and the same principal who, you know, despite their very up close knowledge and seeing the president every day and realizing his limitations, you know, they came up with this rationale for him to run anyway, that he's the only person who's ever beaten Donald Trump. And thus he has

to be the candidate again. And I think now the view across the party, at least among a lot of the people that we talk to, is that that seems to be a pretty self-serving and maybe delusional case for another four years. And Eli, the argument we heard last night from President Biden that he had been traveling in Europe, that's true. But as I pointed out, he'd been home for 11 days and been resting at Camp David for a week by the time the debate took place, which kind of reinforces the point, does it not, that he needed 11 days to rest before a debate and still performed that way? Is that the argument that they're going to go with for his performance on Thursday? Well, they keep kind of adjusting the argument, which is a tell in and of itself. I mean, at first it was just a bad night. And now it's, oh, I was traveling 11

days before the debate, you know, a lot. And granted, that was those were grueling trips going from Italy to Los Angeles overnight, doing the fundraiser after two trips to Europe. That is a lot to do right before the debate. And some people were nervous about that ahead of time. But, you know, the discrepancies here, the sort of changing picture, none of this is reassuring. Democrats are really concerned at this point about the sustainability of Biden's candidacy, the shifting explanations not reassuring to people. And even though this is obviously damage control, this is an effort meant to sort of keep the trains on track here in a very difficult moment, it's also a huge shift for this White House that for three and a half years up until this point insisted that nothing was wrong.

And even the suggestion that the president had aged or lost a step, which now the White House is being explicit about to explain away the debate, for three and a half years, that suggestion was dismissed out of hand. Reporters were attacked for writing it and suggesting that the things that were in plain sight about the president being very slow, say, to get into his motorcade, you know, not taking the big steps down from the main door of Air Force One, using the lower steps because there are fewer steps to climb, you know, all those things. There was just so much frustration and defensiveness and dismissiveness about those stories from the White House. And now suddenly they're here acknowledging

the obvious, which is that, yes, the president has lost a step. He's not quite how he was even four years ago. He's 81. Meanwhile, the White House is working to tamp down concerns within the party. President Biden is scheduled to speak with Democratic governors tonight. Three sources say the details are still being hashed out, but it comes after governors held a phone call on Monday to discuss the party's path forward. Separately, NBC News has learned Biden's chief of staff, Jeff Zients, will hold an all staff call this afternoon where he is expected to tell staff members to weather the storm and keep your heads down. The president spoke with House Democratic leader Hakeem Jeffries by phone yesterday. It is the first reported conversation between Biden and a member

of congressional leadership since the debate. That comes as Congressman Lloyd Doggett of Texas became the first sitting Democratic member of Congress to publicly call on President Biden to drop out of the race. Here's what he told NBC's Hallie Jackson about the president's debate performance and what he's hearing from voters in his district. I would say that the input from my constituents has been 10 to 1 in favor of replacing President Biden on the ticket. You would think after the kind of performance that we saw there, he would be out engaging not with a teleprompter, but with one reporter after another to answer the hard questions that are out there.

I think that's more important to me than a cognitive test or anything else, is to demonstrate that last Thursday was an aberration and that he's ready to actively engage and answer all the hard questions again and again. That's the kind of engagement we need to have if he chooses to stay in the race. I hope that he will put country first. I know Trump would never do that, but he will put country first and decide to step aside. Give us a fair, open, democratic with a small d convention. Jim VandeHei, your piece with Mike Allen for Axios this morning for your behind the curtain column is entitled Democrats Rage at Biden Rises. Explain what you're hearing. Yeah, I would say we've talked to literally dozens of House members,

most of whom aren't going to go on the record yet. The ones who are going to go on the record already have. They're furious, like they're just not buying it. Now, I would say they're madder about the response to the debate than the debate itself. They can't believe that he's deflecting and saying it's much ado about nothing. They can't believe he's blaming staff for it. And now this idea that an 11-day jet lag would cause you to have a poor debate performance strikes them as a crazy explanation for it. And all if you're a member of Congress, to be honest, all you care about is your voters first and your donors second. Yeah, you like the president if he helps you. But if he doesn't, you will turn on him because you care about self-preservation. So they're talking to donors. Donors are furious. Voters are telling them what Lloyd Doggett's voters are telling him, which is we want him to step aside. That's why yesterday we talked to several people who are on multiple calls with a lot of members. And when there was either a show

of hands or, hey, should he stay in? Almost nobody said that he should stay in. They want Hakeem Jeffries. They want Chuck Schumer, the two Democratic leaders, to go in and talk to him and have a very serious conversation about getting out of the race before the convention so they can have a messy but somewhat orderly transition to somebody else. They believe, and I think they're right, that the Biden family and the Biden staff are trying to keep anybody who might make that case to Biden away from Biden. Now, he started to make calls yesterday. You're correct. But it took him a while. And there's a lot of people in senior positions who love the man, love the president, have been with them from the beginning, who want to have this gut check with him about whether or not he could not only lose the presidency, but cost them the

House and Senate. You toss in that Supreme Court ruling and you have Democrats saying this could be an existential threat to our party, to our majorities, hell, to the country in their own personal views. So Vice President Kamala Harris is defending President Biden and made calls for him to buy out. In response to Congressman Doggett speaking out against Biden's candidacy, Harris staunchly stood by the president. And speaking about stakes, you just came out of a fundraiser. We know that many in your party have expressed concerns about President Biden's health. Just this morning, Congressman Doggett said that he's calling on President Biden to withdraw from the race, given that there's too much at stake to risk a Trump victory. What's your response to this?

Look, Joe Biden is our nominee. We beat Trump once and we're going to beat him again, period. Are you ready to lead the country if necessary? I am proud to be Joe Biden's running mate. Thank you. Harris also acknowledged Biden's disappointing performance, saying it was not his finest hour, but added the election cannot be decided by one day in June because the stakes are so high. Democratic Congressman Jim Clyburn, who played a key role in helping Joe Biden win the presidency in 2020, spoke with MSNBC's Andrea Mitchell yesterday, and Andrea asked him about a potential Kamala Harris candidacy. Take a listen. Congressman, how would you feel if there is a decision for him to step down, if he decides that and he has to decide that, or if the party

pressures him to do that? How would you feel if they worked around and tried to go around Kamala Harris because of her lack of high poll numbers and popularity and broadly based. Do you think it's hers to have if it is not his? I will support her if he were to step aside. But I'm going to support her going forward at some time in the future. I want this ticket to continue to be Biden-Harris. And then we'll see what happens after the next election. No, this party should not in any way do anything to work around Ms. Harris. We should do everything we can to bolster her, whether it's in second place or at the top of the ticket. Simone, your comments on both of the stories that I just put out there. I'm curious what former presidents are saying from the Clintons to the Obamas to the Bush family at this point, since democracy is at stake.

I think it'll be interesting in the week to come to see how this plays out. But as you see, Congressman Clyburn is standing firmly behind Joe Biden and Kamala Harris. Congressman Clyburn has proven to be one of the president and I would also argue the vice president's staunchest allies in politics, frankly. You know, Mika, as I was thinking about this this morning, I thought back to 2019, 2020, when Joe Biden had, you know, swept South Carolina. He swept the Super Tuesday states. And there were all these calls for the other candidates, Democratic candidates in the race to step down. And then candidate Biden, I distantly remember him being asked many different times about should Amy Klobuchar drop out? Should,

you know, everyone from Amy Klobuchar to Bernie Sanders, everyone in between. And time and time again, he said himself that this is a personal decision that candidates will have to make. He himself had had to make that decision in the past, and he would never call on someone else to drop out. And I just had to juxtapose that with literally the onslaught of elected people and folks that have known the president for such a very long time, privately and now some publicly, calling for him to step down. To me, it was just astounding. But I will say, Mika, again and again, I think people need to talk to voters, because the elected officials and the donors—I think the donors and the elected officials forget

that it is the voters that put the people in the positions. You know, the donors help fuel campaigns. And frankly, given our party system, it doesn't work without them, because of the money that is needed—hello, Citizens United. But it is the people that elect the representatives, from the president to governors to members of Congress to mayors to state representatives. And much, much more focus, I think, needs to be put on the voters and what they are

saying, because it is them who will decide who I think will be the biggest influence on what unfolds. And lastly, Mika, I really think that a lot of folks, as I've been reading the coverage and talking to folks, I don't know if people are very aware of the rules of the Democratic National Convention and that there are rules that govern what happens if a nominee has accepted the nomination and then decides to step down or something happens if they are not the nominee. And there are not many rules, non-existent, frankly, rules that exist if this all happens before the nominee accepts the nomination. So it is it is it is not cut and dry and an orderly democratic process that people have described. That's

called a primary process that already played out. So I don't know me. And so we're we're we're going to hear from some of those voters that you spoke to a focus group in Pennsylvania after the debate that's coming up in just a few minutes. So, Eli, reading through your piece about this, the inner circle that's been around Joe Biden, as you write, many of them have been at his side for 40 years, put them together with his family as well. The advisers in the family seem to be the ones who will make this decision ultimately. Is there any sense that the pressure now that's built over, say, the last two, three days even, where you're hearing people saying out loud, Democrats now elected Democrats saying out loud that it's time for Biden to step aside. Do you get any sense that that message has cracked through, has broken through that inner circle?

I don't know what the metric would be to say that it's broken through, but they're definitely hearing it. They're aware of it. The interview with George Stephanopoulos, that is obviously a sign that they have heard some of these calls from lawmakers, that they know they have to fix this. They're trying to fix it. They're trying to reassure people. The outreach has been slow. There were a lot of days that went by before the president started really getting on the phone and talking to the people who are important here. He'll obviously, as you said, meet with the governors today. He has started picking up the phone and talking to members of Congress, as far as I understand what those conversations are like. Hard to say. But, you know, I think that, you know, the campaign has pointed at this point to polling

and they've said, well, the debate has not really changed the race. We're only starting to get a sense of the public's reaction to what happened on Thursday night, what they saw changed the race. We're only starting to get a sense of the public's reaction to what happened on Thursday night, what they saw from the president. I think Simone is right. The voters are going to have a lot to do with this public perceptions, public support. If the president's support craters, if we're looking at a place where states like New Hampshire and Minnesota are suddenly now in play for Donald Trump. That's not a race that the president can win. And so I think that his inner circle, as cloistered as they have been, as much as they have tried to kind of circle the wagons around the president here in the last week or so,

they are realists. They are seeing all these polls. The president is seeing all these polls. And I'm sure that if they continue to mount, if we hear more calls from from more senior members of Congress for him to consider stepping aside, I think that will weigh heavily on this president, certainly on the senior staff as well. And by the way, that interview with George Stephanopoulos takes place on Friday. I misspoke earlier. I said it was today. It only feels like Friday here on Fourth of July Eve. So, Jim VandeHei, I'm curious. You are so plugged in in Washington. You have such good instincts about these things. What is your sense of how this might play out over the next

couple of days? A long Fourth of July weekend here coming up, a lot of time for the president to speak with his advisers and his family. And if he does, in fact, decide to take the extraordinary step of dropping out of the race, how confident are Democrats in what comes next? It's kind of a great unknown, whether it's Kamala Harris or it goes to the convention and something else happens. How are Democrats feeling about what potentially, if he does take this step, could come after Joe Biden? What Simone said is correct. It's going to be about the voters. So what you need to watch for are the polls. If you start to see states like Minnesota, New Mexico, New Hampshire and Virginia move towards Trump, that's going to be that is going to be DEFCON 1. People are going

to be freaking out. If you start to see swing polls, swing state polls for House races and Senate races start to dip, that's when you're going to see intense pressure on members of Congress to go as a delegation or individually and talk to the president about stepping down. I think if that's going to happen, it probably happens over the next week to 10 days. So let's say let's play it out. Let's say that does happen. There's a lot of Democrats who say, yes, it's going to be messy. Everything in politics is messy. But if you have to pick a new ticket, there are advantages to that, right? You would come out of the convention with two much younger candidates. You'd get a hell of a lot of attention because it would be a spectacle unlike any seen in recent American politics. The money would flow. There's lots of

money in America. If people want to back it, they'd figure out a way to get it to them. And then you have, you know, seven to eight weeks to be able to prove that this ticket is a superior alternative to Trump. And getting lost in this is that Trump, he's seeing some benefit, it looks like, in the polls, but it's not like people are racing to embrace Donald Trump. They're racing to say, we have deep, deep concerns about President Biden and his fitness for office, given his age, given his performance in the debate.

That's a very logical position for voters to have because they saw what we saw. And that's what you keep hearing members of Congress and governors say. You can't unsee what you saw. And they know that that has an effect on voters because they're human. They have parents. They have grandparents. They've seen what happens when people start to get older and they start to get tired. Even the jet lag thing on 11 days, like you wouldn't say that about most of your parents or grandparents at 81, that it would take them 11

days to recover. So there's a human reaction to it. And so, yes, it would be messy. Yes, it would be unprecedented, but it's not like it's impossible. Co-founder and CEO of Axios, Jim Vande Hei and White House reporter at Politico, Eli Stokols, thank you both so much for your reporting this morning. And still ahead on Morning Joe, Pennsylvania clinched the presidency for Joe Biden in 2020. But can he win the state again this November? Simone, you spoke with a group of black women voters in the state. We'll hear what they had to say about the 2024 race. We're back in 90 seconds. Is democracy still America's sacred cause? This is not rhetorical, academic or hypothetical, but the democracy is still America's sacred cause

is the most urgent question of our time. And it's what the 2024 election is all about. That was President Biden at the start of the year outside the Valley Forge in Bluebell, Pennsylvania, in an event that was largely considered the launch of his reelection bid. Seven months later, MSNBC's Simone Sanders Townsend and MSNBC legal analyst Melissa Murray sat down with a group of black women from that same town to discuss Biden's debate performance and whether the campaign can be saved. And Melissa Murray joins us now. She is Stokes professor at New York University School of Law. And Simone,

why don't you set the scene for us a little bit more than I did to give us context for this conversation? This is right after the debate, correct? Yes, correct. Thanks so much, Miko. So on Sunday, the Sunday right after the debate, Melissa and I traveled to a play. One of the states is going to be critical for both candidates, Trump and Biden, in this 2024 election, Pennsylvania. And we went to Montgomery County, Pennsylvania, to Blue Bell. And we sat down and had a wide-ranging conversation with seven intergenerational women, and they all knew each other. Many of them knew Melissa, which is how we kind of sourced and found different women in the area. And we talked about a lot. But as a part of our conversation, Melissa and I thought it was important to make sure we talk about the recent events that happened, the debate, these calls for the president to step down.

And what these women, these black women in the suburbs who will be deciders in this election, black women all across this country about what they think the path forward should be. So it was it was great. All right. Let's take a look at part of the conversation where the women react to the actual debate. Take a look. Anybody here think that Joe Biden, after seeing that first debate, that Joe Biden should drop out of the race? I hoped that both candidates would drop out of the race. Both. I didn't like either one of them. I didn't think they represented the United States well. And that's to Joy's point. Being in a different country, I traveled outside the country a while ago to visit Joy. And I get it. People are looking at the United States like, what are you all doing? What are you all collectively smoking?

It's embarrassing. So I wanted them both to drop out. Same here. Absolutely. Wish they would both drop out. I'm a bit worried about Biden's ability to be able to run a country. I don't know if he'll be able to do it if he is elected for the next four years. And I do think he does have other options within the party who could step up and carry out similar things that he wants to be carried out. It just doesn't. I don't think it should be him. Trump is only a few years younger than Biden. Do you worry about his ability to run the country? Not just age, but like mentally. That man is unhinged. Absolutely. Yeah. No, I don't I don't trust Trump at all. All right. So, Simone, you can take it to Melissa, by the way.

I just wonder what you both think in terms of overall what you heard from these women in terms of looking at the options. And the options are Biden and Kamala versus Trump and whoever. And that that could not be more stark whether or not Joe Biden is struggling with his age. Fair to say. Yeah, I think it's fair to say. I mean, Melissa, I'm interested in what you gleaned from that part of the conversation. But I will note that, you know, other women went on to say it was really a range of views, right? Shelley, who also we have clips of Shelley from this conversation, who said she never thought about Biden dropping out. But as, you know, the time went on and she

saw more of the news, she really thought about the fact that she doesn't think that there's an alternative and that she brought up on her own. Democracy was on the line. She talked about the Supreme Court and said that the president would have a number of great people on his team as well. And she thinks that folks should stick with Biden. And Vanessa, also in that conversation, made the same assertion. So, Melissa, I don't know what you what you thought, but I thought the range of thoughts was very interesting. Well, one of the things I thought was so striking about this conversation, Mika, was how practically minded these women were. They really felt that this was an existential choice between having a democracy and having

something like an autocracy. And Clark said something in very stark terms. They all thought that Donald Trump was unfit to be president. They just really worried if Joe Biden had the stamina, had the vigor, could make it through a difficult campaign season to ultimately prevail. And they said that not prevailing was not an option, that this was a fundamental choice between having and maintaining a democracy. And they wanted whatever would allow the country to get through this.

So some of the women actually said President Biden should not be removed as the Democratic candidate. Let's listen to what they had to say. For me, my visceral emotional reaction after the 90 minutes was, wow, we need to find another path forward. The practicality of having who would that next person be, getting them on the ballot, raising the money or getting access to the money that has been raised, it feels impractical to change course. And I think at this point, strategically to rally around our guy who was elected through the process, and he's got the best shot at beating the alternative. I think initially, I didn't think about him dropping out because I was like, what's the other alternative

at this late date, as far as being strategic and making sure that we have someone in place who will definitely defeat Trump in the fall. And as time has gone on, I just, I'm still with, I think that he should stay in the race because that's kind of the trajectory we're on. And then we all have because he is not even though he's old and seemingly evil, he surrounds himself, namely the vice president, all a lot of other people with people who are competent and who will make sure that this country is moving forward. He's not in there by himself twiddling his thumbs. So I'm confident that once he, I'm going to put it

out there, wins in November, we will be okay. So the obvious option, if President Biden steps aside, is the vice president, Kamala Harris. Here's what the group of women that Melissa and Simone spoke to had to say about the potential of her at the top of the ticket. I just think strategically at this point, if we were to, on at least the Democratic side, we all know that polling for Vice President Harris isn't as high as we would like, even if all of us, or I can't speak for everyone in here, but, you know, have great feelings towards her and think she's a great vice president. And I just think at this point, is that going to be a sure loss for us if we switch up or do we hedge our bets and hope that Biden will pull through at least

on the Democratic side? But yeah, I think both of them, I think in my opinion, I agree with people who say there should be, you know, age limits or just term limits on all of our federal offices. And so, yeah, again, it's just kind of Supreme Court. Exactly. Yes. First of all, Simone, what an extraordinarily thoughtful and dialed in group of women you found to talk to. They really obviously understand politics well and follow everything here. You worked, of course, for Vice President Kamala Harris, but you hear even in some of those comments a little bit of trepidation about her at the top of the ticket. What was your takeaway? My takeaway is that, again, these women that we spoke to and the range of women, right, Alexis, who was speaking last year in that clip, she is younger. She's, I would argue, a younger millennial, if you will, who has graduated. She,

you know, lives and works outside of Blue Bell now, but she's originally from that area. And she represented the sentiment of a lot of younger voters who say, hey, I'm just looking at what is happening out here, my own experience, and these are my thoughts, and this is what I think. So I think that voters, Black women voters especially, they are extremely pragmatic. They are paying attention. None of the women in this group are political professionals. They do not—they are not activists for the Democratic Party. None of them are running different organizations. They are in business. They are teachers. Some of them are homemakers. Some of the younger women work in marketing and finance. And I really think that what we heard is representative of truly what a lot of black women specifically are saying across the country.

And Melissa, I'll just tap into your expertise if you guys didn't discuss this, but I'm curious, did any of these women bring up Trump's legal issues, the countless counts against him and the things that have already happened in civil court and in criminal court? Does that play into this conversation at all? And what do you make of the recent decisions, whether it be to delay his sentencing and the partial immunity decision. Well, we did ask them about the Supreme Court and about Trump's legal troubles. One of the women, Shelley or Sheila, excuse me, was a veteran. And she noted that, you know, seeing those documents arrayed at Mar-a-Lago, that was a really surprising move.

And for Trump to say during the debate that he had done the most to support veterans while we had those pictures of those classified documents at Mar-a-Lago, that was to her a stunning dereliction of duty. For all of these women, though, I think the Supreme Court is top of mind. They mentioned it several times unprompted. And they also noted that democracy is on the line. And this was obviously before the immunity decision came out on Monday. But that decision, I think, is a really stark line in the road. If the court delayed on immunity, it certainly gave Donald Trump de facto immunity in the January 6th trial. But going forward, the court's decision really does lay out a scenario where anything a president does, including Donald Trump in a second term, would be

prospectively immune from criminal liability. And I think for them, that would have been chilling. Yeah. Fraught times. MSNBC legal analyst Melissa Murray, thank you very much. And Simone Sanders Townsend, thank you as well. We'll be watching The Weeknd Saturday and Sunday mornings beginning at 8 a.m. Eastern, right here on MSNBC. And thank you for bringing us those interviews. Coming up, we'll take a closer look at the decision to delay Donald Trump's sentencing hearing in his criminal hush money trial and how this could impact his presidential campaign. Morning Joe, we'll be right back. The sentencing in Donald Trump's hush money criminal trial conviction now will not take place next week as originally planned.

The sentencing hearing will happen now on September the 18th. That's at the earliest. Judge Juan Merchan approved the delay yesterday after Trump's lawyers asked for more time to argue the Supreme Court's recent immunity decision calls for a new trial. Let's bring in former litigator and MSNBC legal correspondent Lisa Rubin. So, Lisa, first of all, were you surprised by this delay? And secondly, what are these months now, a couple of them at least, by Judge Mershon, by Trump's legal team? So, Willie, I wasn't surprised that there was a delay of some sort. I thought that the judge would allow there to be briefing on the question of whether to set aside the verdict, particularly after the New York D.A.'s office said they would consent to having that briefing. What surprised me was the

amount of delay that we're postponing the sentencing, if it happens at all. And those are the judge's words, not mine, to September 18th. That was the big surprise. And so July 11th, originally scheduled, that was a week from tomorrow, now September 18th, and it could be later than that. So what is the link here as you look at it between the Supreme Court's decision on presidential immunity and what we're seeing now? What could Trump's team argue? Could they argue for a new trial under the ruling from the Supreme Court? They're not even arguing for a new trial. They're arguing to set aside the verdict completely. And their argument is this, that the Supreme Court's decision doesn't just stand for the president having immunity from prosecution for his official acts, but it is immunity from even offering official act evidence in any case, no matter whether or not the charges deal with official acts or purely personal or private conduct. Let's rewind back in time to the Manhattan DA's trial, where even though the grovement of the case was about the payments to Stormy Daniels and then later the cover up of that through business records, there was evidence of things that happened during Donald Trump's presidency, including tweets that he issued in May of 2018 after the truth became known, where he admitted that he reimbursed

Michael Cohen. There's also an Office of Government Ethics financial disclosure that Trump filed for the year 2017 that also admits to that reimbursement. And then there are a slew of other public statements and tweets that the prosecution said during the trial, go to the pressure campaign on Michael Cohen, not to flip. In other words, from Donald Trump indicating or insinuating, if you stay in line, we'll take care of you. But if you turn me in, your life is about to become a living hell. And indeed, that's what happened to Michael Cohen. The prosecution introduced all of that evidence at trial. The defense now saying none of that should have entered into evidence because it's all reflective of his official acts.

And therefore, the verdict should be set aside. I don't think that they'll win because I don't think that any of that evidence was critical or pivotal to the prosecution proving all of the elements of the crime. But it's not a crazy motion, as with some of the things that they've tried in the past. It's certainly what I would describe as non-frivolous. So Rudy Giuliani can no longer practice law in New York. The former New York City mayor who tried to overturn former President Trump's 2020 election loss was disbarred in the state yesterday. The order came from a New York state appeals court citing false statements Giuliani made about mass voter fraud after Joe Biden's 2020 victory. The order

states that Giuliani had no good faith basis to believe the lies that he spread about the election, specifically citing comments Giuliani made at his now infamous Four Seasons Total Landscaping press conference, which took place on the day the election was called for Biden. Giuliani currently faces charges in Georgia, in Arizona, and is an unindicted co-conspiracy in special counsel Jack Smith's federal election interference case against Trump. Giuliani's law license in Washington, D.C. remains under review. And remember, Steve Bannon is now in prison. Lisa, your take on this Giuliani development? I think, Mika, my take is where you were about to go,

which is we continue to see the consequences of participating in the big lie or in efforts to obstruct investigations into the big lie, as in Bannon's case. From everybody around Donald Trump, all of his loyal acolytes will continue to pay the price for their loyalty, whether through indictment or other serious consequences like civil liability. You know, Rudy Giuliani, you didn't mention, owes Ruby Freeman and Shea Moss, two Georgia election workers, $148 million after a defamation verdict. And yet the lesson of earlier this week is that Donald Trump will likely escape criminal accountability for his participation in efforts to overthrow the results of the 2020 election while everyone else around him falls. And that's a lesson not only for all of us,

but for all of the people who continue to surround him and to enable his lies and his attempts at autocracy, Mika. Yeah, it's a one way loyalty oath. MSNBC legal correspondent Lisa Rubin. Thank you very much. And still ahead, President Biden now has his eyes on North Carolina, where the Latino population is growing. But the turnout is shrinking. NBC's Morgan Radford will join us with her new reporting from there and whether the president's messaging is resonating with Latino voters. Plus, it's time to rip off the Band-Aid. That's what former Democratic Congressman Tim Ryan says, arguing for Kamala Harris to be the Democratic nominee. He'll join us to make that case. And tell us why he's lost confidence

in Biden's ability to defeat Donald Trump. Morning Joe, we'll be right back. Beautiful live picture of the White House at 650 on this Wednesday, July 3rd, just ahead of the 4th of July celebrations across the country. Tomorrow, the Biden campaign is ramping up its efforts in North Carolina, hoping a Democrat can win the state for the first time since 2008. Donald Trump, you remember, won North Carolina in 2020 by fewer than 75,000 votes. Now both Democrats and Republicans are focusing on North Carolina's nearly 300,000 eligible Latino voters. Joining us now, NBC News correspondent and co-anchor of NBC News Daily, our good friend Morgan Radford. She traveled to North Carolina to see firsthand whether either party's message is breaking through. Morgan, good morning. What'd you find out there?

Hey, they're really good morning. Yeah, I went back home and we spoke to voters, non-voters, organizers from both sides of the political spectrum there in Wake County. It's home to the second largest Latino population in the state. And the best summary actually came from the leader of one Latino outreach group called Siembra, which in Spanish basically means planting seeds. And she told us that there are three choices in this election, Joe Biden, Donald Trump and the couch. And right now, she said the couch is looking pretty good to a lot of voters. Here in Wake County, North Carolina, the temperature is rising. But interest in the election among these Latino voters. I just don't know who to even lean for. Is anything but hot.

I don't think people are particularly excited in this moment about this election. Nikki Marin-Bahena leads a voter outreach group called Siembra North Carolina. Its goal? To reach 5,000 Latino voters this election year, mainly in support of progressive causes and candidates. A feat they say is harder than it's been before. You know, in 2020, the last presidential election, I think that it was so much clearer to people kind of what we were up against and what the choice was and how the two candidates were different. I think that all of that felt sharper. North Carolina's Latino population has increased by 40 percent in the last decade, but Latino voter turnout here has actually decreased, lagging non-Hispanic turnout in both the midterms and the 2024 primaries.

It's a trend Marin Baena says is due in part to a misunderstanding of what Latino voters here actually want from either candidate. I think if either one of them had a coherent plan that was like your kid will not get shot in school, here's what we're going to do about guns, and talked about that to Latino voters, I think this would be a completely different conversation. Another issue resonating here, a series of ICE raids under the Trump administration that saw hundreds of people detained across the state. They saw a thing happen over and over again where people got taken who weren't even the person that ICE was looking for. And so I think that that had a really big impact in our community and creating a lot of fear and causing a lot of chaos. An issue that ultimately played a role

in sheriffs from the state's three most populous counties losing reelection in 2018. It's one reason 19-year-old Josa Handi Avila says she's leaning toward Biden. Right now, the immigration laws that are going on have been very impactful to how my family lives. But interestingly, you say you're still undecided. Are you excited about voting for either candidate? I mean, not necessarily. It sounds to me like you're almost choosing reluctantly between two options that you don't love. Am I hearing that correctly? A sentiment the state's Republican Party is hoping to capitalize on.

When you're out here talking to Latino voters, what is the number one issue you talk about to to recruit them? The economy is definitely the number one issue. Why? What do you say? We talk about, hey, where grocery prices is high when President Trump was president or gas prices is high when President Trump was president. Well, a lot of these Hispanics, what's the American dream? To own a home. Are you able to put a down payment down? Are you able to afford a mortgage with the interest rates so high?

And they say, no, we're having a big problem. The rent market is actually booming, but the housing market is not. But as both candidates try to drum up enthusiasm in the Tar Heel state, voters here say there's still a long road ahead. Honestly, like, I don't even know who to vote for just because it's like, no matter what side you go to, there's something iffy about it. What do you think of Biden and Trump? You agree with your daughter. You think both candidates are too old. You want to see something new.

Exactly. Yes. We reached out to the Democratic Party and they said it's investigating and really investing earlier than ever in the state's Latino community, adding in part, while Trump oversaw a 47 percent spike in unemployment among Latinos and is pushing to raise our health care costs. President Biden has delivered for our Latino communities, creating more than 400000 good paying jobs across the state. They also pointed to a seven figure ad buy for a TV ad specifically target toward Latinos watching the Copa America tournament. They say that that spot will be airing across several battleground states, including North Carolina, just in time for Wednesday Copa America match happening there in Charlotte on July 10th. Willie. Fascinating. And this group could be decisive, as you say, in a race that was one point last time around in 2020. NBC's Morgan Radford, thank you as always for your reporting. We appreciate it.