Morning Joe - Morning Joe 7/4/22

Episode Date: July 4, 2022

Jan. 6 panel could make multiple criminal referrals to DOJ, says Rep. Cheney

A beautiful shot of Lady Liberty on this Independence Day morning. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Monday, July 4th. I'm Jonathan Lemire. Thanks for being with us today. The January 6th hearings are on a hiatus until later this month, but the committee is not letting up as members fanned out across the Sunday morning political shows this holiday weekend. They addressed the possibility of criminal referrals of Donald Trump to the Justice Department and what to expect from the evidence presented

at future hearings. And from sky high gas prices to canceled and delayed flights, a look at the chaos for holiday travelers across the country. We've got a lot of news to get to this morning, but we will start with the January 6th investigation and the possibility that former President Trump could be referred to the Justice Department for criminal prosecution. Here's an interview with Vice Chair of the Committee, Congresswoman Liz Cheney. So the committee will or will not make a criminal referral? We'll make a decision as a committee about it.

So it's possible there will be a criminal referral, which would be effectively the committee saying that he should be prosecuted. And this is the evidence that we've. The Justice Department doesn't have to wait for the committee to make a criminal referral. And there could be more than one criminal referral. I have greater concern about what it would mean if people weren't held accountable for what's happened here. I think it's a much graver constitutional threat if a president can engage in these kinds of activities and, you know, the majority of the president's party looks away or we as a country decide, you know, we're not actually going to take our constitutional obligation seriously. I think that's a much a much more serious threat.

NBC News has confirmed that at least one of the messages about possible witness intimidation presented in last week's hearing was received by former White House aide Cassidy Hutchinson. Take a look. This is a call received by one of our witnesses. Quote, a person let me know you have your deposition tomorrow. He wants me to let you know he's thinking about you. He knows you're loyal and you're going to do the right thing when you go in for your deposition. A source familiar with Hutchinson's deposition says the individual referenced as a person in that message is indeed former Chief of Staff Mark Meadows.

The committee declined to comment. A spokesperson for Meadows released a statement claiming, quote, no one from Meadows camp himself or otherwise has ever attempted to intimidate or shape Ms. Hutchinson's testimony to the committee. Vice Chair Cheney and several other members of the House Select Committee are weighing in on what will be presented during some upcoming hearings. Take a look. Do you have any evidence other than Cassidy Hutchinson's testimony to corroborate what she said happened in that presidential motorcade? The committee has significant evidence about a whole range of issues, including the president's intense anger. Anger at not being allowed to go to the Capitol. Yes, exactly. At that moment.

But let me just leave it there. I think you will continue to see in coming days and weeks additional detail about the president's activities and behavior on that day. I don't want to get too far ahead of what we intend to present in our next hearings, but our very next hearing will be focused on the efforts to assemble that mob on the mall, who was participating, who was financing it, how it was organized, including the participation of these white nationalist groups like the Proud Boys, the Three Percenters, and others.

This happens every day. Every day we get new people that come forward and say, hey, I didn't think maybe this piece of a story that I knew was important, but now that you guys are, like, I do see this plays in here. Will we hear from witnesses that you did not know about the stories you did not hear because of the hearing so far? Yes, yes, there will be. There is there will be way more information and stay tuned. It also now seems more likely that former White House counsel Pat Cipollone

will also soon appear before the January 6th committee. According to a lawyer familiar with the matter, Cipollone will probably agree to a transcribed interview that is limited to specific topics to avoid any privilege issues. in the investigation after former White House aide Cassidy Hutchinson painted him as a critical figure in the final days of the Trump White House during her explosive testimony. He clearly has information about concerns about criminal violations, concerns about the president going to the Capitol that day, concerns about the chief of staff having blood on his hands if they didn't do more to stop that violent attack on the Capitol. Hard to imagine someone more at the center of things. We'll have far more on the January 6th committee later in the show, but let's now shift to holiday travel chaos. There's no relief in sight as millions of Americans are traveling to celebrate the 4th of July. Flight delays, cancellations,

and even some computer glitches are showing the mass, slowing the masses down in a major way. And for those who hit the road, gas prices just went up again in some states, thanks to a tax hike. NBC News correspondent George Solis has more. Before the fireworks even begin, many Americans already blowing up in frustration. I've never come to an airport before wondering whether my flight's going to take off or not. So it's a little nerve wracking. The last minute scramble to get home for the 4th of July is on. TSA screened more than 4.6 million since Friday across the nation's airports. Those planning ahead still burn by ongoing delays and cancellations.

My wife booked two flights, and one of them, they just canceled. Since Friday, more than 1,400 flights have been canceled, and more than 15,000 have been delayed. What's happening at our nation's airports? It's a mess right now. There's no other way of saying it. I've never seen anything like this, not in all these years. Travel experts say it's a perfect storm where supply isn't meeting demand, calling on airlines to be more transparent about their staffing. They have to get in front of this. They have to be honest about it. American Airlines experienced a scheduling glitch Friday night that allowed aircrew to drop flights, leaving up to

12,000 flights without pilots through July. The airline, in a statement, said the issue has been fixed, adding they do not anticipate any operational impact. This is not about this one incident this weekend. You know, this is a much bigger, as you know, I hate to be negative, but it's not going to fix itself next week. Drivers facing other challenges. I think the gas prices are insane the national average now around

four dollars and 81 cents a gallon still a bargain compared to california where gas hovers around six bucks and prices are projected to creep even higher the golden state alongside six other states all impose new gas taxes starting fr. Nonetheless, some drivers still happily shelling out the green to see some red, white and boom. Worth every penny, right? To be with family over Fourth of July weekend. Joining us now from Newark International Airport is NBC's Isa Gutierrez and from Bethany Beach, Delaware, NBC's Gary Grumbach. Good morning to you both. Thanks for being here. Isa, I did some flying in recent days. Airports packed and analysts had predicted that air travel would return to pre-pandemic levels this weekend.

Is that what's happening? Absolutely. AAA had predicted about three and a half million people traveling by air this weekend. You just heard George say over 4.6 million people since Friday. Just yesterday alone, TSA screened over two million people. That number we hadn't hit since February 11th, 2020, before the pandemic. They had also predicted 42 million people hitting the roads. Of course, we still have the whole day ahead, but already we're surpassing those predictions. And as you can see behind me, this is not letting up anytime soon. You know, cancellations, flight delays, over 17,000 delays since Friday alone at this point. So travelers are really frustrated. And by the way, the cost

of traveling this weekend as well, astonishingly high, not only the flights, but the gas prices as well. These road trips costing families a lot this year. Gary, it's warm throughout much of the country. People want to go to the beaches. But as just mentioned, prices are up. How are you seeing the impact of high prices there in Bethany Beach and how is that impacting revelers and their holiday weekend plans? Hey there, Jonathan. Yeah, folks here in Bethany Beach and the beaches around the country are going to be spending the day enjoying their Fourth of July, but they're going to be paying a lot more to do it. Everything from getting there to staying there, even eating there, is more expensive this year than it was last year. Gas prices, I don't need to tell you, they are high. They're

at $4.81 a gallon on average across the nation right now. And food prices are really high as well, up 17 percent compared to last year, according to the Farm Bureau. I have a graphic here to show you. Ground beef is up 36 percent. Pork chops are up 31 percent. Even a jug of lemonade will cost you a few cents more than it did last year. So why is this all happening? Well, we spent the weekend here in Bethany talking to farmers and growers and consumers about their thoughts on all of this. Of course, it all starts with the farmers. That's where the fertilizer has to get to so these crops can grow. And folks and farmers right now aren't getting that fertilizer from Ukraine because of the war there. That cost of the high fertilizer then gets passed along to the consumer and consumers aren't happy about it

either. Here's what some folks I talked to this weekend had to say. I bought three apples the other day and they were eight dollars. They were Honeycrisp, but I was surprised they were $8. Did you buy it anyway? Yeah, I did. I mean, you know, I'm by myself and so I want to have what I have. With everything going on in the world and stuff like that, I just accept it. I'm not going to complain about it. You want it, you get it.

We've cut back on a lot of things. I mean, we're here now, but we have a place here, but we're eating in, right? Because you go out and it's just so expensive. But we look for bargains. And that's what you do when you cut back. Unfortunately, I don't think we've seen the end of it either. I think it's just going to keep going. And I think the demand's there. They know, too, when we go to the store and get things, you know, people tend to buy in bulk more, too. So, Gary, obviously, a lot of this is being blamed on the administration, even though some of this, of course, is out of their control.

The Biden team trying to do what they can to lower costs. The folks you're talking to there, are they feeling that impact? Who are they blaming? Who are they holding responsible for everything costing that much more right now? Well, there was a number of blames that were made this weekend. Most of it goes to the Biden administration, though. Of course, President Biden has said this will take, quote, as long as it takes. And that's how long these costs will stay high before Ukraine wins this war in Russia with Ukraine. Of course, that's what the Biden administration wants to happen. But folks here on the ground, they just want to be able to buy their tomatoes, buy their corn, buy their ground beef, and not have to pay exorbitant prices for it.

Jonathan? So, Issa, you mentioned the chaos behind you. A lot of crowds already at 6 a.m. on the holiday itself. Do we anticipate today being potentially another messy one at the airports? Is it going to spill over into tomorrow as well? Definitely. I mean, just in the last couple of hours since being here, this has already gotten a lot busier. I came up from downstairs at arrivals where there was a very long line at the bag office. You know, people who've lost their

bags and all of this travel chaos. And these delays and these cancellations are due to a variety of factors. We have weather issues. We have short staffing, of course, with these delays and planes grounded. Plane staffs having to switch out, right? They're only able to work for so long. So passengers having to wait for staff to come in and out. And then there's also the overbooking issue. There were even reports this weekend of one Delta flight offering passengers $10,000 in cash to rebook their flights.

So airlines here really just trying to do whatever they can to get people off the ground, to get people to reschedule to other flights. But passengers really frustrated here this weekend. And we're certainly expecting to not see that let up in the next day, day and a half. And also the impact, of course, of covid cases surging across the country, causing crews to go out sick and canceling flights. And certainly none of this unique to America. Europe also battling high inflation and chaos at the airports. NBC's Issa Gutierrez and Gary Grumbach, thank you both so much for being with us today. Still ahead this morning, Russia claims to have taken control in a key city in Ukraine's eastern region. We're going to get a live report from that war-torn country. Plus, protests erupt in Akron, Ohio, after authorities released body camera footage of a disturbing officer-involved shooting.

We'll be joined by the attorney representing the family of Jalen Walker. And President Biden admits that Democrats lack the votes to change the filibuster to codify abortion rights. We'll have his new comments on that and what Democrats are doing to put the pressure on Republicans ahead of the midterms. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back. developments surrounding the January 6th committee, perhaps none bigger than the idea that Pat Cipollone, former White House counsel to Donald Trump, may now be a step closer to appearing before the panel and the possibility that President Trump could be referred to the Justice Department for criminal prosecution. What's the latest you're hearing from your sources on the Hill and inside the White House as to how they think all of this is going down?

Yeah, I mean, first and foremost, you know, people have been wanting to hear from Pat Cipollone since the beginning. This is a man whose name popped up a lot for folks that don't know. The White House counsel is constantly in meetings with the president of the United States and others, constantly at the forefront of all of these conversations and issues. And as we heard last week with Cassidy Hutchinson talking about how Pat Cipollone was trying to get Mark Meadows, the chief of staff, for example, to go with him to talk to President Trump to get him to stop the folks from rioting in the Capitol. So he is someone that they definitely want to talk to. And when you talk to folks in the White House, either about Pat Cipollone or about the possibility of Donald Trump or the DOJ doing a criminal referral for Donald Trump, that is something that, one, they don't

really want to talk about because they know that they don't want to be seen as from the White House leaning on the DOJ in any real way. But also, they're obviously watching that. That is something that has been frustrating for a lot of folks, a lot of Democrats watching as all of this evidence is presented to the January 6th committee, all of this testimony, and people wondering what's going to happen legally. Because as we know, this committee doesn't actually have the power to put anyone in jail, doesn't have the power to take anyone to do anything legally to these folks. So this is about what the DOJ is going to do. But I would caution folks who think that something's going to happen pretty quickly, because this is a DOJ under Merrick Garland who has been trying to work really hard to get the politics out of there.

And if you come for a president of the United States, you have to have everything air tightened. So it's going to be a case, if that is ever something that Merrick Garland actually does, that he is going to be sure is a home run at any cost. Yeah, it does seem at times these committee hearings have almost been playing to an audience of one, to Merrick Garland, to the Department of Justice, trying to push them towards the direction of charging the former president. To this point, they, of course, have been quite reluctant to do that. And as part of that, there's some growing chatter that the former president may announce his next presidential campaign as an effort

to ward off some of this talk of prosecution. But, Eugene, let's talk now about the current occupant of the Oval Office. And it seems a bit of a moment of a perhaps a moment of reset for President Biden. I was on his trip to Europe last week. Undeniable successes, particularly in NATO. But he was celebrated on the world stage by his fellow leaders there at the G7 in Germany and then at the gathering of that alliance in Madrid, Spain. And he returns to the White House today. So tell us a little bit about just simply how he's going to mark the July 4th holiday, but also how the White House hopes to shape the week ahead. Yeah, we were just talking on Saturday, Jonathan, about how his

trip didn't really break through in America. Right. That is something all of these successes that he's had on the world stage aren't really cracking through here at home. So, today, the president, the first lady are going to have a barbecue, a July 4th barbecue. It's a tradition at the White House. I've been talking to aides who are getting excited, bringing their parents and grandparents to the White House to see some fireworks. And he's going to give a speech. It's very interesting to look at this July 4th compared to last July 4th and where the country is.

Last July 4th and moving into July 4th, the president was basically almost completely focused on COVID-19. It was the focus of the administration. A year later, there's this long, long laundry list of issues from including Ukraine, but also gas prices, also higher prices overall. I'm talking about lemonade being a little bit higher for folks today. But then also what happened at the Supreme Court just last week, two weeks ago, with the overturning of Roe v. Wade, and so much pressure being put on this White House to do something on, frankly, issues where there's not a lot of power from that the president can do. And so people want to see more executive action on abortion. People want to see what he's going to do to bring down gas prices. What are the things that he can do to fix some of the travel issues and nightmares that people have that are going on right now?

But there's not a lot this White House can do. That does not stop the pressure. That does not keep people from telling this president, telling this administration, telling us that they want to see more movement faster. And what I hear from folks is it's not just that they want to see actual action, they want to see bills, that kind of thing. They want to hear more from the president

about how he is fighting with X, Y, and Z, right? Whether he's, you know, they're beefing on Twitter with Jeff Bezos about gas prices and whether he's tweeting to gas company, gas and oil companies, telling them to make sure that their prices go down, all of those things they want. People want to see more. And you're right to bring up last July 4th, a moment when the president had positive poll numbers and also declared the nation was going to have its declaration of independence from the coronavirus. That, of course, is not the case. The Delta variant showed up just weeks later and the president's poll numbers have yet to recover. Politicos, Eugene Daniels, thanks for starting the holiday with us, my friend. We'll talk to you soon. Let's turn now to the ongoing war in Ukraine. After weeks of intense fighting, the last Ukrainian stronghold in the eastern Luhansk region has fallen to the Russians, signaling at last a

significant victory for Moscow. Ukrainian officials say their forces yesterday withdrew from Lysiashkanks as they were waging a stiff but losing battle. President Volodymyr Zelensky says the decision to pull out was made to save the lives of their soldiers from the relentless Russian assault in that city. He also vowed that Ukrainian forces would regroup and return to try to fight back in those city streets. Lysershanks was a key target for the Kremlin in its bid to control the entire Donbass region. Its fall now gives the Kremlin a stronger base from which to advance on the neighboring Donetsk region. Meanwhile, there

were some attacks reported inside Russia yesterday. Russian officials say three Ukrainian missiles hit the city of Belgorod near Ukraine's border, killing four people and injuring four others. The regional governor says the casualties included three Ukrainians who were refugees from Kharkiv. He also said the blast damaged 11 residential buildings and 39 private houses. There was no immediate comment from Kyiv, but an advisor to Ukraine's interior ministry accused Russia of carrying out the attack itself and blaming Ukraine as part of a propaganda campaign. This as Ukrainian forces did hit a military base in the Russian-occupied southern city of Militopol yesterday. In a telegram message, the mayor of that city said there were 30 strikes on a single base.

Joining us now live from Kiev is NBC News correspondent Ellison Barber. Ellison, good morning. Thanks for being with us. Obviously, the eyes of the world for a long time now have been focused on the Donbass, that region in eastern Ukraine. Russia now claims to control the Luhansk region. What's next there? Right. Yeah, so really you had this situation where Severodonetsk, the sister city to Lysyshanks, fell about a week and a half ago. And initially, sort of the thought was that in order for Russian forces to be able to take Lysyshanks, they were going to first have to capture Severodonetsk entirely and then make their way across a river to get into the sister city. They had actually

started to launch an attack on Lysi Shanks from the south while they were still fighting in Severodonets. Severodonets has been described as one of the bloodiest battles since Russia launched its full-scale invasion of this country. Yesterday morning, you had Russian forces claiming that they had taken full control of Lysi Shanks, the only city that remained between them and full control of Lysyshanks, the only city that remained between them and full control of the Luhansk region. Remember, if you look back a few months ago in May, that is when Russian forces claimed that they and Russian-backed separatists controlled about 90 percent of the Luhansk region. But you had these two cities, Severodonetsk and Lysyshanks, Ukrainian forces putting up a really

strong fight there. And you had this really bloody battle with heavy street fighting ensue. Now, the question in terms of what happens next is it's very clear that Russian forces want to move further and ramp up attacks into the Donetsk region. Remember, when Russian forces failed their initial goals of taking some of the largest cities in Ukraine, Kyiv and Kharkiv, they shifted their attention to the Donbass region. President Putin has made this claim that he needs to take back this area, liberate these areas, he says, of predominantly Russian-speaking people because he has claimed without offering any shred of evidence that Ukrainian government officials and others are carrying out a quote-unquote genocide against Russian speakers in that region. Again, absolutely no evidence for that. Ukrainian officials have

consistently said that this is a kind of a shift of where Putin didn't achieve what he hoped to achieve at the beginning of this full scale invasion. So in an effort to sort of consolidate resources shifted to focusing on the Donbass region. The question for military analysts has been whether or not if he were able to take the Luhansk and Donetsk provinces, if he could claim victory for what he has described as a special operation and then sort of go home. But you talk to Ukrainian officials, you listen to people like President Zelensky, and they will tell you that they feel that Putin has said this in many of his speeches of late, that this was never really about, quote unquote, liberating Russian speakers or trying to help anyone in the Donbass area,

that this was an imperialistic land grab of Putin trying to go back to the Russian empire and just grab as much land and as much territory as he can. President Zelensky has said consistently that Ukrainian forces plan to fight to take back control of any territory that Russian occupies right now. And he says again with Lisi Shanks that he will do that. And he also said that they will be able to do it with some of the artillery that they have gotten from Western allies. You talk to soldiers who have gone back and forth between the front line, Jonathan, they will tell you that this is an artillery fight. Jonathan. And this is a real topic of conversation at those European summits last week. Zelensky saying that he believes the Ukrainians can mount a counterattack to take back these territories even by end of the year. Western

allies less certain. We'll certainly be following this in the weeks and months ahead. NBC's Alison Barber. Thank you so much for joining us today. Coming up here on Morning Joe, Democrats aren't just using the courts to fight back against abortion bans. We'll explain what The Washington Post calls a, quote, patchwork of countermeasures. Plus, new reporting that the Department of Justice was caught off guard by the testimony of former White House aide Cassidy Hutchinson at last week's explosive January 6th hearing. Our legal panel weighs in on critics who say the attorney general needs to get a lot more aggressive on this case. Morning Joe is coming right back. In the aftermath of the Supreme Court's reversal of Roe v. Wade, Democrats across the country are

trying to different methods to keep the issue in the minds of voters. The ruling overturned decades of precedent, despite a majority of Americans supporting abortion access. But Democrats' response to the Supreme Court varies widely depending where you look. The Washington Post reports on this. On Capitol Hill, House Democratic leaders are discussing ways to force Republicans into uncomfortable positions on abortion, plotting potential votes designed to expose GOP opposition to some popular protections and underscore their own commitment to them. That's according to aides with knowledge of the Democrats' plans. Meanwhile, at the White House, President Biden first encouraged outraged Americans to express themselves at the ballot box and then days later and in response to some criticism, shifted to a more aggressive posture,

urging a change to the Senate filibuster to enable Democrats to codify abortion rights. He said that in last week's news conference in Madrid. And then across the country, liberal governors on the West Coast banded together to create a multi-state haven aimed at protecting out-of-state abortion seekers for legal consequences, while TV ads about abortion aimed at helping Democratic candidates are hitting the airwaves in battleground states from New Hampshire to Florida. And then there's this. A 10-year-old rape victim was denied an abortion in Ohio due to the state's ban after the overturn of Roe v. Wade.

The girl was a little over six weeks pregnant when the ban took effect, and now she must travel to Indiana to receive the procedure. Ohio's abortion ban took effect last week, and Indiana lawmakers are poised to further restrict an outright or outright ban the procedure in the weeks ahead. Right now, abortion providers like those in Indiana are seeking an influx of patients from neighboring states. Joining us now, former U.S. attorney in Michigan and law professor at the University of Michigan Law School, Barbara McQuaid, and state attorney for Palm Beach County, Florida, Dave Aronberg. Good morning to you both. Barbara, let's start with you and that headline about the 10-year-old girl obviously ricocheted across the country

yesterday. Just give us the legal perspective here that this could happen to her despite being 10 and what now? Is there anything that could stop her from receiving this abortion in Indiana? How do you see this playing out? Well, that is the cruelty of these laws, Jonathan. There are no exceptions for rape or incest. A 10-year-old who is pregnant is by definition a victim of statutory rape. And yet there is no exception in Ohio's law for this. There's all kinds of scenarios where people become pregnant in ways that I think are not envisioned by those who oppose abortion. And when the state has its hands tied by laws, you can't allow girls, women, doctors to make what everyone would agree is the right decision. And then with regard

to travel, for now, she's permitted to travel to the state of Indiana, but there are states, including Missouri, that are talking about having laws that would forbid someone from leaving the state for the purpose of having an abortion. I think that is a questionable constitutionality, but with the makeup of our current Supreme Court, I don't know that I have full confidence in them to apply the Commerce Clause the way it has been in the past. So, Dave, we talked about this sort of patchwork of defense measures that Democrats are trying to put in place, whether from the White House, on the Hill, and on the state level, to try to protect some access to abortion rights. I want you to focus, if you could,

on the states. What legal measures can governors, can state legislators put in place to try to protect abortion rights in their state and, to Barbara's point, to those who might try to travel to their state to receive the procedure? Yeah, good morning, Jonathan and Barbara. States can codify Roe versus Wade in their own laws. There are 20 states right now and the District of Columbia that protect a woman's right to choose. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any movement on a national law to codify Roe v. Wade because you can't get through the filibuster in the Senate. But each state can adopt laws, and the blue states are starting to do so. And as far as preventing people from traveling to other states, I share Barbara's concern, but I think it's blatantly unconstitutional to restrict

interstate travel. Even Justice Kavanaugh, in his concurring opinion in Dobbs, said that that would be unconstitutional. And now he was part of the majority in Dobbs. So I think that when states inevitably try to restrict their citizens from traveling to other states, it will eventually be struck down. But all it takes is one rogue district attorney who's really aggressive, one of my counterparts somewhere, to try to make an example out of someone. And then it's got to go to a jury and then on appeal until eventually hits the Supreme Court. So, yes, states can do things. But right now, I think you're going to see two Americas. You're going to see the states that outlaw abortion entirely and you're going to see the states that will welcome patients to be a haven.

And as far as that 10 year old girl, I mean, what kind of a world are we living in that forces a 10 year old girl to carry her rapist baby to term. I mean, that's crazy. And that's like when Kristi Noem was asked that, the governor of South Dakota, it really showed who she was when she supported existing law to require that 10-year-old girl to carry her baby's rapist to term. It tells you a lot about who these people are. And every candidate around the country should be asked about that. She was not the only governor this weekend who said that they also in their state would force that 10-year-old girl to carry the baby to term. But let's shift now to the January 6th committee. And every hearing has had explosive development after explosive development and yet also teasing what comes ahead. So, Barbara, we were talking about earlier in the show about Pat Cipollone, the White House counsel. Now, you're the lawyer, so you're going to tell me how he does have the ability to invoke executive privilege far more than some of these other Trump aides

try to. But what should we expect to hear from him as he has emerged as a real key figure here in determining what then President Trump was doing before and on January 6th? Yeah, well, with regard to the privilege issues, it sounds like they're negotiating to so that he can provide information. And to some extent, this is a little bit of a dance. I think he demanded a subpoena. I think he's going to testify. And I think there are many areas that he can talk about. Certainly, whenever there was someone present, a third party would waive any privilege he might have as to what he can talk about. Cassidy Hutchinson really opened the door, I think, to putting the pressure on him to testify when she talked about things like he came

barreling down the hall to say, if we don't stop this, there will be blood on your hands, Mark Meadows. When he said, if President Trump goes to Capitol Hill, we will all be charged with every crime imaginable. He was one of the people prepared to resign if Donald Trump fired Jeffrey Rosen and replaced him with Jeffrey Clark. So he was involved in those conversations. Whereas Cassidy Hutchinson heard about some of these conversations, Pat Cipollone was present for the conversations. And so I think he can provide very important testimony that could demonstrate any number of crimes for President Trump, from conspiracy to fraud the United States, conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding,

and quite possibly even seditious conspiracy, which means that there was an agreement to the use of force to stop that proceeding on January 6th. And Dave, Barbara teed me up well for last quick question to you. It's sort of been a pattern for years that in Trump world, they seize upon one detail that may not be 100 percent right to try to discredit everything else. And what they've done this time over the last few days is Cassie Hutchinson's testimony that the president, then President Trump, was reaching into the steering in the front of the limo or the SUV to try to grab the steering wheel. And she was flat out and said, hey, that's what I heard. I didn't witness that myself, although some video emerged over the weekend that suggests

that Trump in that SUV was gesturing at the minimum towards that front seat. How effective is that? Is this just a smokescreen by the Trump world to try to discredit the whole testimony? What should we really be looking at? It's a smokescreen and it's sad. They're trying to discredit her by saying it's hearsay. But hearsay is admissible in a congressional hearing. And besides, she was open about it from the beginning that she was not in

the car. She was retelling a story. So even if that story proves not to be true, it doesn't mean she was lying. She was retelling a story. But the thing to look for, Jonathan, is the fact that she said that Donald Trump knew that his supporters were armed that day, and yet he still wanted the magnetometers to be removed. He wanted them to march to the Capitol with him, and that will move the needle for prosecutors for possible charges of obstruction of justice, conspiracy to defraud the United States, even a possibility of incitement of a riot and maybe seditious conspiracy. Prosecutors will be very interested in her testimony.

I don't think they're really going to care much about that anecdote about Trump allegedly grabbing the wheel. Yeah, we can certainly toss that anecdote out and certainly her testimony damning from last week. State attorney for Palm Beach County, Dave Ehrenberg and former U.S. attorney Barbara McQuaid. Thanks so much to you both for joining us this morning. Coming up, we're going to be joined by the attorney for the family of Jalen Walker. He's the 25-year-old black man shot and killed by police in Ohio last week. New body cam footage sparking outrage as video shows officers firing dozens of shots and a medical examination revealing 60 wounds to Walker's body. We're going to have the latest from Akron next on Morning Joe. Newly released body camera video shows the moments leading up to the police shooting of a black man in Akron, Ohio, one week ago today.

There were large protests in the city over the weekend as an independent investigation into the shooting gets underway. NBC News correspondent Maggie Vespa has more and a warning. Some of the images in this story are disturbing. Nearly one week after Jalen Walker's death and facing growing community pressure, officials in Akron, Ohio, releasing the body camera footage. I won't mince words. The video you're about to watch is heartbreaking. It shows a harrowing police chase followed by a stunning hail of bullets, an estimated 90 rounds fired by eight Akron, Ohio officers killing and leaving 25-year-old Jalen Walker with 60 wounds to the body, according to authorities. My youngest is 25 years of age as well, and I cannot imagine what life would be like without my son.

The approximately seven minutes of raw video released alongside a second narrated clip gives new insight into what preceded the shooting. Police say they tried to pull Walker over for an unspecified traffic violation and an equipment violation, which is not shown on tape. But they say he took off driving at high speeds and Walker fired at them. Police saying you can see the flash from the gun from the security camera. 21 shots fired that he just had a shot come out of his door. Shot is fired. That changes the nature of the contact. Authorities say Walker later ran from his car wearing a ski mask. Officers,

investigators say, fired tasers but missed. What followed? That deadly barrage of bullets. Police saying officers said they thought Walker was turning toward them, reaching for a gun. Walker was unarmed when he was shot, though police say they found a gun and what appears to be a wedding ring in Walker's car. Shoot somebody 60 and 70 times like they're nothing in human. Anger in Akron boiling over. We have sons ourselves. It could be any of our sons. And this is just horrible. Like that many times?

We are done dying like this. In this manner, with this fate, nobody should ever suffer the fate that Jalen Walker did. The family revealing just a month ago Walker lost his fiance. We know that immediately after the death of his fiance, he was sad, but he wasn't exhibiting any kind of behavior that scared the family. The family's attorneys say the 25-year-old food delivery driver had no criminal record, his mother and sister pleading for peace, overwhelmed with loss. Why? Why did this happen in such a manner? Such a terrible, terrible way. Just why?

Joining us now, attorney for the family of Jalen Walker, Bobby DiCello. We saw him there in that package. Good morning, sir. Thanks for being with us today. What can you tell us about the latest in this investigation and the impact this new video, hard to watch, and also, of course, now the revelation from the medical examiner that many of 60 wounds were found on Walker's body. What impact may this have on the case? Well, the case is going to be notable for all time for what that package that we just played

shows. A young man running across a parking lot is met with over 90 rounds, 60, at least 60 of which strike his body. That's what the medical examiner is showing. And I need you to think about this. In Kentucky, just a few days ago, a white man sat in his house, barricaded himself, killed two or three officers and is in jail today. My client's in the morgue and the other guy is in jail. Now, why do I point that out? Because we have to talk about how police attack sometimes. Not all the time, not all police, but they do attack. And in this case, there was an attack on my client. That was an attack.

So, Mr. DiCello, authorities are claiming that Walker fired a gun out of his car during the chase. But Walker did not have the weapon on him when he was shot. Authorities saying it was instead found in his vehicle. What can you tell us? Did he fire on officers? You know, what what sort of is your sense of the the run of play here in terms of what happened when? What we're hearing from the police right now is an organized response that's designed to shed the blame and put it all on my client. And that is absolutely wrong. Let's think about this for a second. Just applying some simple facts.

You're driving the car. You open the car door somehow with one hand. Now, there's one hand on the steering wheel, presumably, and there's one hand on the open door. Which hand uses the gun? Let's assume you go no hands and you use the gun and you have no hands driving the car and you've got one hand opening the door. But the door, as you can see from the video, does not fly open and the hand doesn't flag a gun back in the direction of officers. So the only likely possibility, if there was any shot at all, was that he discharges around onto the ground or at the ground. Now, we also know that there's no bullets in the gun and there's no magazine in the gun. So they're going to have some explaining to do. And I think BCI, Bureau of Criminal Investigation for the Attorney General of Ohio, who's doing

the investigation, is going to have to piece this together for us. It's too early to tell whether or not my client even possessed the gun. And they're using a flash, they say, that they get from the Ohio Department of Transportation's camera that you guys showed. They circle it with a nice red circle, none of which, none of which details a gun being pointed at police. And I know I got to remind us that just a few days ago in a standoff with dead officers, a man went to jail. How my client goes to the morgue with over 60 wounds in his body is inexcusable. And lastly, sir, briefly, what do you want to

see happen next? Who do you want to be held accountable? What changes might you want to see made? We need changes, meaningful changes in Akron's pursuit policy. There is no reason for my client to have been pursued this way. Yes, he fled the scene of a traffic stop, and that is not anything that should be done. And, you know, they had his information, they could have prosecuted him, and he could have been fined, and he could have been put in jail if necessary, whatever his fine or penalty was going to be. But his penalty should not have been death. And I have to emphasize, not only does the chase policy need to be. But his penalty should not have been death. And I have to emphasize, not only does the chase policy need to be reformed, but their use of force policy needs to

be reformed. And it needs to be in line with the state of the art when we talk about how guns are used and under what circumstances. In this case, two officers used tasers. The first two used tasers. So there was no lethal threat. And to have eight officers in the spawn with over 90 rounds, more than 60 of which took my client down, is again, absolutely inexcusable. Attorney for the family of Jalen Walker, Bobby DiCello, this is a story we're going to be staying on in the days ahead. Thank you for being with us today. Coming up here on Morning Joe, are Trump's own staffers tanking his chances in 2024? The Daily Beast's Matt Lewis joins us with that take straight ahead.