Morning Joe - Morning Joe 7/5/24

Episode Date: July 5, 2024

Keir Starmer to become U.K. prime minister as Labour Party wins election in a landslide ...

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Starting point is 00:00:00 We're the only nation on earth founded on an idea, not ethnicity, not geography, not anything else, on an idea. Now, decades later, we have to look at ourselves and ask the question, will we stand for freedom again? We stand for democracy. We stand together as Americans. I believe we will and we can. How moving. That was part of President Joe Biden's message. And the 4th of July celebration on the White House South Lawn yesterday talking about how America is an idea. Donald Trump had his own ideas on how he would celebrate the 4th of July. And he used a holiday message to once again air grievances.
Starting point is 00:00:50 In a series of Independence Day posts, the former president barely mentioned America. Starting off by writing, Happy 4th of July to all, including our highly incapable president who uses prosecutors to go after political opponents. USA. In total, Trump mentioned America just one time in his 4th of July post. I know this will shock you. Only when promoting himself by saying,
Starting point is 00:01:14 make America great again. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It's Friday, July the 5th. With us, we have the president of the National Action Network and host of MSNBC's Politics Nation, Reverend Al Sharpton. Also, Washington bureau chief of the USA Today, Susan Page. And the Western world right now is waking up this morning to news of a landslide victory. I mean, this is this is a massive victory in the United Kingdom's Labor Party yesterday's general election.
Starting point is 00:01:44 They were swept into power. NBC reports that with some of the votes still being counted, the Labor Party has secured 412 seats in Parliament. That's well above the 326 seats needed for a majority. Meanwhile, the Conservative Party has been reduced to the lowest seat total in its very, very long history with just 120 seats. This morning, Labour leader Keir Starmer is going to be meeting with King Charles to formally be appointed as the UK's next prime minister. And earlier today at a rally in London, Starmer spoke to the crowd about what's next. Country first, party second isn't a slogan. It's the guiding principle of everything we have done and must keep on doing.
Starting point is 00:02:36 On the economy, on national security, on protecting our borders. The British people had to look us in the eye and see that we can serve their interests. And that work doesn't stop now. It never stops. The changes we've made are permanent, irreversible, and we must keep going. We ran as a changed Labour Party and we will govern as a changed Labour Party. And moments ago outside 10 Downing Street, the now outgoing Prime Minister, Rishi Sunak, acknowledged defeat and apologised to the citizens of the UK. Take a look.
Starting point is 00:03:14 To the country, I would like to say first and foremost, I am sorry. I have given this job my all. But you have sent a clear signal that the government of the United Kingdom must change, and yours is the only judgment that matters. This is a difficult day at the end of a number of difficult days, but I leave this job honoured to have been your prime minister. This is the best country in the world. And it is thanks entirely to you, the British people, the true source of all our achievements, our strengths and our greatness. Thank you. For our Trump fans out there, let's that is what you call. Are you ready for it? You ready? Because I know we don't have it here in the United States.
Starting point is 00:04:06 You have no idea what it's what it's called. That's called a peaceful transfer of power. Actually, that's what we had in the United States of America from the late 1700s until the year 2020 when Donald Trump refused to do it. See, it's better that way. It's better that way because you actually let the voters decide. And that's what democracies, constitutional republics are all about. Well, he had a very bad day. Liz Truss, remember, she had a terrible day, too. Liz Truss actually lost her seat. Her cabbage lost an adjoining seat, parliamentary seat nearby.
Starting point is 00:04:49 All in all, bad day for Liz Truss. But to talk about that and much more, let's bring in the president emeritus of the Council on Foreign Relations, Richard Haass. And that are in chief of the Economist, Zannie Minton-Badows. Zannie, let me start with you, because the thing that stands out in my mind is the historic nature of this election. You know, it's not like the UK was was discovered after leisure suits hit the scene. UK's been around for a very long time. The Tories have been around for a very long time. So when you say things like this is the Tories, this is the conservatives worst showing ever. That's that's just breathtaking. Talk about it and talk about what led up to it and what it means. So you're right, this was a really, really bad result for the Tories. It was a landslide victory
Starting point is 00:05:37 for Labour. We haven't quite had all the votes counted, but I think they have they have 412. The Tories were down to about 121. Their worst results is out of 650 seats in Parliament. I think what this really was, was a collective shout by the British people, we want the Tories out. People voted against the Tories much more than they did enthusiastically for Labour. If you look at what happened, Labour's overall share of the vote actually wasn't that dramatically different. But what happened? People voted tactically. People voted for the party in their constituency most likely to beat the Tories. And so this was a terrible day for the Tories. But after 14 years of Tory government, there was one clear message
Starting point is 00:06:19 from Britain, which is we've had enough of these people. We want them out. Yeah. You know, Richard Haass, you go back, you talk about how much can change in politics, how quickly, of course, is one of the things I'm saying when when when Democrats are like ready to jump off a cliff. When I every what I talked have talked to over the past week, you know, a week is a lifetime in American politics and in British politics, said said a certain British prime minister. But even five years ago, let's just let's just say five years ago when Boris Johnson ran for reelection. You remember he won and all of those Tory strongholds across the North and all of those labor strongholds across the North. And it looked like the conservatives were rewriting the map. And a lot of talk about what was happening in the United States was happening there and that it was going to change forever. Five years later, Johnson's Tories completely wiped out.
Starting point is 00:07:23 Oh, absolutely. And it's one of the characteristics of a parliamentary system is that it's less difficult to affect wholesale change because you essentially have a single vote. You vote nationally and it has all sorts of repercussions. As Zannie pointed out, what's so interesting about this vote is if you add up the Tories and the Farage's reform movement, the conservative, if you count them all as conservatives, were pretty competitive with labor. It was really a lot of this was the characteristics of the British voting system. But your point's exactly right, Joe. And it's a little bit more difficult to bring that about here because we have all the separate elections for for Congress.
Starting point is 00:08:05 The other thing is where you began. I had the same reaction you did. The concession speech by the outgoing prime minister had grace notes. He was generous towards his successor. He talked about how remarkable a country Britain was. There's someone such as himself, given his his roots in India. He talked about his daughters lighting the Bali candles at 10 Downing Street. It was a remarkably generous, gracious comment. And it's it's it was a little bit of it to me, actually found it poignant as an American how we no longer have quite those grace notes, shall we say, in American politics. You know, not only peaceful transfer of power, but how fast do they
Starting point is 00:08:46 do these things? The new prime minister poised to take over. Zaini, let me ask you, we heard the new prime minister say he would be leading a changed Labour Party. What does that mean? What do we expect? What do you expect to see from this new government on issues like the economy and immigration? How big a change are Brits in for? Well, he has, first of all, really dramatically changed the Labour Party. I mean, it's worth remembering the last election in 2019, the one that Richard was referring to, the Boris Johnson one so overwhelmingly, was against the Labour Party led by a far left radical called Jeremy Corbyn, who essentially wanted to renationalize. He was a very, very, very left-wing guy.
Starting point is 00:09:29 And Keir Starmer came in and has completely transformed his party, ruthlessly, actually, and effectively transformed his party. And having transformed his party into a centre-left party, he is now determined to bring competence and kind of effective functioning of government to running the country. What his main priority is, and he's said it again and again, is to boost Britain's growth rate. British economy, unlike the US economy, has been barely growing. Productivity is very stagnant here. It's the single biggest problem the UK has. And the question is, is he going to be radical enough to do what needs to be done to really
Starting point is 00:10:01 boost the British economy? And that's things like changing the planning laws, so it's easier to build, so it's easier to build infrastructure, it's easier to build houses, doing kind of fairly big structural things which require a degree of boldness and radicalism. And we've seen that in how Keir Starmer's transformed his party, but we haven't really seen it in how he hasn't really laid out a bold agenda. He's got bold aspirations. And the question now is, is he actually going to use this enormous. He's got bold aspirations. And the question now is, is he actually going to use this enormous majority he's got to do some of the really quite dramatic things that need to be done so that the UK economy is kickstarted and he grows and it grows faster again? And that's the question. What is the impact, Richard Haass,
Starting point is 00:10:42 of this election, do you think, on policy and on getting the British economy moving again? Look, I think he's already stated that he's not going to revisit the Brexit question that is off the books permanently. I think you'll have a closer relationship with the EU, which should help a little bit. Joe, in order to win the election, Labour was quite I guess the word I use was cryptic about what it would actually do. It didn't want to put forward specifics lest it alienate some potential voters. I think the one area they're going to try to make a big difference in is housing. If you saw what happened in the stock exchange this morning, a lot of companies associated with building had a pretty good morning. So I think that'll be their big approach is to get that going.
Starting point is 00:11:29 But beyond that, again, I don't think you're going to see anything radical. This is a centrist labor party, and I think they're going to be careful, and they've got enough of a majority. They don't have to do it in the first couple of months. They're pretty safe for their term. So my guess is you're going to see a gradual rollout of policies. And again, probably great, you know, continued integration of Britain with the West, with the United States, with Europe, obviously very close to NATO. And in some ways, you're going to have Britain much more,
Starting point is 00:12:06 I guess I'd say, more familiar to what Americans would think. Yeah, and boy, what a long, long move also in the Labour Party from Jeremy Corbyn to Keir Starmer. Starmer is a centrist, a moderate, and a steady-as-she-goes ma'am, sort of guy. He is not going to see any quick movements from him in policy or personally. One more foreign policy issue before we get to American politics, Richard, the White House is calling the latest ceasefire proposal from Hamas a, quote, breakthrough. A senior Biden administration official told reporters yesterday that the group's response is fully consistent with a framework deal that was approved by the
Starting point is 00:12:50 United Nations Security Council last month, which they picked up from President Biden. President Biden also spoke with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu over the phone yesterday about finalizing that deal. A senior White House official tells NBC News negotiations are expected to resume in Qatar in the coming days. If Hamas is finally moving toward this deal that Biden proposed to the UN and the UN adopted, why is it, Richard, and might we have, if not peace at hand, at least a ceasefire at hand?
Starting point is 00:13:23 Well, I think Hamas would obviously like to have an end to major Israeli military operations. Israel is running out of large military targets in Gaza, Joe. There is growing pressure, continuing pressure to get the hostages home. I also think, Joe, the Israelis now have reached a point where if their policy towards Gaza, and I don't mean to use unattractive wording, is almost like a maintenance situation. They just want to keep the lid on there. The Israelis are far more preoccupied with Hezbollah in the north. And they're also increasingly preoccupied with the almost Gaza-like situation in the West Bank, a story that hasn't gotten a lot of attention in this country. But we're no longer talking about intifadas in the West Bank. We're no longer talking about kids with rocks. We're now talking
Starting point is 00:14:09 about growing numbers of groups that have modeled themselves on Hamas that are increasingly involved in armed confrontation with Israeli settlers and with the Israeli defense forces. The last thing the Israelis want is a three-front war. They want to focus on Hezbollah in the north. They want to gird their loins to what could come in the West Bank. So I think they like the idea of turning down the temperature in Gaza. Yeah. Thank you, Richard, so much. Greatly appreciate your insights on foreign policy. Now, if you could only provide us some insights on why the New York Yankees cannot win a baseball game.
Starting point is 00:14:51 Joe, Joe, it's not the way to begin the day after July 4th, where we're all Americans here. It's the fabric of our society. And I think focusing on the Yankees swoon, at least talk about the Knicks. There's possibilities there. The Yankees make me sad. The Red Sox make me happy. And the Red Sox are winning. The Yankees make me sad. The Red Sox make me happy. And the Red Sox are winning. The Yankees aren't. But a perfect time for a series between the Yankees and the Red Sox this weekend. You guys probably will sweep us. So there you go.
Starting point is 00:15:16 Thank you so much, Richard Haas. What's that? If things go badly this weekend, I look forward to not seeing you Monday. All right. I look forward to not seeing you as well, Richard Haass. Thank you so much. During a meeting with Democratic governors on Wednesday, President Biden suggested he might start limiting events after 8 p.m. so he can get more sleep. One source tells NBC News the president was asked about his health
Starting point is 00:15:40 and he said that he was doing fine, adding, quote, it's just my brain. The governor's took that as a joke, as did Biden campaign chair, Jen O'Malley Dillon, when she was asked about the remarks. She said Biden was clearly making a joke. I think that he also said, all kidding aside. And in the Wisconsin interview that aired yesterday, President Biden acknowledged that he had a poor debate performance, but defended his candidacy. I had a bad night. I had a bad night. And the fact of the matter is that, you know, it was I screwed up. I made a mistake. And but I learned from my father.
Starting point is 00:16:20 When you get knocked down, just get back up, get back up. And, you know, we're going to do, we're going to win this election. We're going to just beat Donald Trump like we did in 2020. We're going to beat him again. But we need all of you to get this done. All of you. Look, I came back from, I was in a situation where I was wired. I didn't have a good debate. That's 90 minutes on stage. Look at what I've done in 3.5 years. Yeah, I'll tell you what. So many Democrats on the phone nonstop since that debate.
Starting point is 00:16:58 And there's panic. No doubt there's panic all around. I said eight days ago that the president needed to consider getting out. He said that we needed to give it time, needed to see what was going to happen. And I think we're still there. I mean, it is July the 5th. This happened eight days ago and decision time is not upon us yet. And though it may be coming soon, I think we should first honor a man who was first on the ballot 54 years ago by giving him the time and the space to make his decision before we tell him that we've made ours.
Starting point is 00:17:48 This week, there are going to be a lot more polls. There are going to be more interviews. There's going to be a NATO summit. And we're going to have more information to take in. Now, the test of our democracy and of our citizenship is to contemplate different scenarios that could happen if Joe Biden decides to get out of the race. But the first is to see where the man is who got all of the Democratic delegates in primary season this past year. We do actually have a democracy still in America. This is not a reality show. We cannot make up things as we go along.
Starting point is 00:18:28 That's what the other side does. We must instead watch with open hearts and open minds. And we can't be Trumpian and yield all of our desires to our dear leader. Facts are coming in. Facts will keep coming in over the next week. And we stipulate right here and right now that Trump's Republicans are not serious about their politics. They're not serious about their party. They're not serious about this republic. And unfortunately, last week's debate reinforced that sorry truth more than ever. Because get this, you probably missed this with all the whining that was going on out there over the past week.
Starting point is 00:19:13 As bad as Joe Biden was that night, and he was historically bad, Donald Trump was even worse with his lies. And if you saw any of the polls that came out that had Joe Biden losing a few points, you may have noticed, as the New York Times wrote, that independent voters took notice and that Donald Trump actually lost independent voters in that debate. I find that staggering. Now, Republicans and their far-right allies in the media are in meltdown mode, saying, I told you so, and they're accusing the press of a cover-up. Let's just say, before they get too self-righteous, let's remember Republicans
Starting point is 00:20:01 long idolized an aging Republican president whose decline was so bad. It led an incoming chief of staff, Howard Baker, to commission a study of the 25th Amendment in case they needed to use it on Ronald Reagan. So please, please, Republicans, please, right wing media outlets, spare us your moral indignation over a man who had a really, really terrible debate. But a man who's been the most effective president over the past three and a half years, the most effective president in passing bipartisan legislation this century. The most effective president in strengthening the dollar over the past 50 years. The most successful president when it comes to expanding our alliances, expanding NATO, expanding our defense reach all around China. Spare us your shock and your indignation. Three and a half years and a terrible debate. And what Democrats need to find
Starting point is 00:21:18 out this week and what Democrats need to worry about this week are not what the newspapers that were lying about Joe Biden for years before this past week say. They need to look to Joe Biden and he needs to answer the question, is he capable of moving forward? And he knows he needs to answer that question. He needs to answer it in interviews. He needs to answer it in press conferences. He needs to answer it at the NATO summit. He needs to answer it in everything that he does. That's for the rest of us. And that's Democrats. That's independents. That's Republicans of good faith, let's be smart. Let's take a deep breath and let's understand it's only July the 5th. Such an historic decision should not be made in haste. Now, listen, the Democratic Party is not my party.
Starting point is 00:22:19 I'm an independent. But it is the only party that is standing between our democracy, our great constitutional republic, and an autocratic thug who has promised to be dictator on day one. So Democrats, you better get this right. You better think through it. You better take your time. You better take a deep breath. And you better get this right. And if you do, America will follow you. Most Americans do not want the other guy to be elected president of the United States. So don't put them in a position where they feel like they have to vote for the tyrant by default. Do take the
Starting point is 00:23:07 time necessary, though, to get this right. Because American democracy is riding on it and the whole world is watching what you're doing. Good luck and Godspeed, John Glenn. Let's bring in MSNBC contributor Mike Barnicle, Reverend Al Sharpton, Susan Page and the economist Zannie Mitten-Bettos again. Still with us. Mike, I start with you. I swear to God, it is it has been like it's been like therapy. I've been on the phone, unfortunately, taking a lot of calls over the past week. I know you have, too. It's like therapy sessions, talking these people down off of a ledge. I mean, they they they they need the answer. They need it right now. They bounce back and forth. They don't realize that it's July the 5th. And they don't remember maybe 1988 when Michael Dukakis was up 17 points over George H.W. Bush in August. Yeah, you know, Joe, we will get
Starting point is 00:24:17 an answer. We will get an answer from Joe Biden sooner rather than later, I would think. This is a man who, as you indicated, has been in the business of politics for over half a century. He's been on the ballot multiple times. He's been in multiple debates over the years. He can read polls. He's pretty good at the business of politics,
Starting point is 00:24:39 as proven by his career. He knows what's going on. He knows the depth of trouble. He knows that the debate, that people saw something that they cannot unsee. But he also knows something that apparently the Biden administration hasn't fully explained to the American public. You know, I was thinking about this over the weekend. There are several great elements of history and different presidents that moved the economy and the country forward. There was Eisenhower's Highway Act in the 1950s that created suburbs and there was a boom in the economy and a boom in the population.
Starting point is 00:25:17 There was JFK and the Moon program that changed things for all time in terms of technology and research and progress for America. And there was Lyndon Johnson on July 2nd, 1964, all those years ago, signing the first really effective civil rights legislation, improved the country, made people feel better about the country. The Biden administration has passed the Inflation Reduction Act and the CHIPS Act, two pieces of legislation that I'm told by people who know far more about economics than I do, will change and improve the progress of our economy, modernize it, make it more widely spread in terms of both the country, red states specifically will benefit from it more than blue states will.
Starting point is 00:26:04 Employment is on the rise. It's at record numbers. More people are going to go to work today than any other time in American history. That's the Biden administration. Now, the decision on what he does going forward is his and his alone in concert with his family. Clearly, he will make the right decision for the country and for himself. Yeah, no doubt he's got a great record. There's no doubt about it. And you can go through it and compare that record domestically, legislatively, foreign policy wise to anybody else's. And certainly all of the numbers far, far surpass what Donald Trump did over those four years. Donald Trump lied. I got to say really quick, just have to stop right here and just say one of the most remarkable things
Starting point is 00:26:52 I've seen in all the polling. And the White House was trying to tell me this the night of the debate in shock while they were in shock. They said, well, the dial group show the independents really, really broke away from Donald Trump. I said, are they spinning me? Are they not spinning me? So on The New York Times yesterday, incredible. Biden lost two, three points in most polls. But independents actually broke away from Donald Trump toward Joe Biden. That's how much they were turned off by seeing this guy. And you will notice, too, for all the talk about Joe Biden being hidden and eight o'clock and all of this other stuff. You notice Donald Trump has kept his head underground politically since this debate.
Starting point is 00:27:35 Like his staff is scared to death of having their old man go out and say crazy things to get him out on stages. They know that when Donald Trump goes out, he forgets whether we've had World War Two or not. He forgets who the current president of the United States is. He thinks he's run against Barack Obama and beaten him. He thinks he's running against Barack Obama again. And sometimes he tries to get to the end of the sentence and he just sort of kind of goes off into left field, into the pasture. So, again, they're hiding Donald Trump right now. They don't want Donald Trump to get behind a microphone because the less he says, the safer they believe they are.
Starting point is 00:28:19 So, Reverend Allen, another thing the Biden team needs to explain is still what exactly happened on Thursday night. He talked about being exhausted. I'll tell you that, again, these right wingers, oh, there's been a press cover up. You know, people love writing this. The same people that basically parrot Russian talking points on their on their, you know, little newsletters, people like that and others who always make sort of a cottage industry out of attacking the press. And oh, the press knew all along Biden was this bad off. Let me tell you something. You and I spent a lot of time with the president. I spent as much time with the president probably over the past six, nine months as anybody in the media. Maybe somebody spent more. I doubt it. And I
Starting point is 00:29:08 never saw anything approaching this. I spent three hours with a guy back, I think, in March, April. And we talked foreign policy for three hours. He walked me around the White House. He walked me up five flags and stairs. He took me up to the balcony. We kept talking policy everywhere we went. And so, you know, I left there and talked to me. I said, man, this guy, you know, reminded me of your dad. He he is he's on top of it, man. He is on top of it. I'd ask him tough questions about Russia and Ukraine, about the peace process, what Bill Burns was doing. I'd ask him about Netanyahu. We went through the West Bank, what all the options were. I saw none of this. And the thing is, people should know this about me by now. If I had, I would have said, I love you, Mr. President. I'm going to have to tell people
Starting point is 00:29:55 tomorrow on the show, just like I did last Friday. I always say it. It's just like Donald Trump. People didn't like it. Meek and I said Trump was going to win. Trump could win in 2016. And so I so I say this to say I've spent a lot of time with him. I've been on the phone with him. You have as well. And even I, I have no idea what happened on Thursday night. I saw none of that in all of the time that I've spent with him and all of the time I've talked to him. I'm curious your reflections on a guy that's been in the Oval with him and been at the White House with him a good bit. No, I certainly agree with you. I've spent a lot of time with this president in person, on the phone. I probably spent more time with him than even with President Obama, who I was privileged to spend time with. I never saw any signs of this.
Starting point is 00:30:46 I think the biggest surprise for me watching the debate is it was a Joe Biden I had never seen. So I totally agree there needs to be a real concrete explanation of what happened on Thursday night. But I also think where the Democrats are not bringing up the right point is they need to force Trump's party and Trump to explain the lies he told on Thursday night. There's no real pressure on going down the 30 lies, according to The New York Times, and say, explain to us how you justified this lie. One, this lie to all the way through. He should be having to respond to the lies he told. As much as we are having Joe Biden respond to a clearly a bad night at best that he did in terms of his performance. The other thing in the middle of all of this, Joe, that you and I talked about during the week,
Starting point is 00:31:48 let's not forget the devastating decision the Supreme Court made in the middle of all of this that is a real threat to the democratic principles of this country. So we can't get all caught up on whether Joe Biden's going to work after 8 o'clock and forget that they have, during the week of the Fourth of July. There was a revolution where in 1776, the country declared independence from monarchy.
Starting point is 00:32:16 They moved us back. This Supreme Court, three appointed by Donald Trump toward a monarchy, say that a president can get full immunity for what he calls official acts. That's a bigger threat than all of this. Well, yeah. And I'm so glad you brought up, too, I mean, Republicans would have loved Donald Trump to work, like work till six o'clock, work till five o'clock. You remember those schedules? Executive time, executive time, executive time. He sat in his dining room off the Oval Office and watched cable news most of the day. They couldn't get him to work. So again, it's rich Republicans complaining that Joe Biden's only going to be working until 8 p.m. at night. But again, that said, we've talked, Rev and I talked about the time we have spent with him
Starting point is 00:33:18 and the fact that we still are trying to figure out exactly what happened on Thursday night. I think, again, you look at the independents that are breaking Biden's way because of all of Trump's lies. Think if he can do that effectively, if he can do it on George Stephanopoulos or in another interview, that could be a reset. But a lot of Americans still have that question hanging over their head, obviously. Yeah. You know, no more loyal Democrat than Nancy Pelosi. And she raised a question after the debate. She said, was this an episode or is this a condition? And however well Joe Biden does in the interview with George Stephanopoulos and with the NATO, the news conference after NATO this this next week, it seems to me he must answer that question there. People have to understand
Starting point is 00:34:05 people like you who have spent time with Joe Biden need to understand what exactly was at play there. It seems like you have to have some kind of medical explanation, maybe an independent medical examination. I'm not I'm not sure how that would work, but that would reassure people that would answer the question that Nancy Pelosi posed. And, you know, we but we hear editorial comment from outlets like The Economist, Zannie, saying why I think you I believe The Economist has an editorial that says why Joe Biden must withdraw. Tell us why you came to that conclusion. Well, for a start, we actually argued back in 2022 that he should be a one term president and should not run again, which was something in large part because of his age. And that was massively reinforced last week. I mean, I watched the debate like millions of Americans and was shocked, shocked to see a befuddled old man struggling to recall words and facts. And you're right that maybe this was an episode, but the president has not really been made available to very many people in informal
Starting point is 00:35:12 settings or settings where he can really be questioned. And I think like many Americans, we were just shocked at that performance. And that doesn't detract at all from his accomplishments. I completely agree with you all that his presidency has been incredibly effective. It's passed tremendous amounts of legislation, but I think what most Americans who were as shocked as we were by that performance were thinking about was the next four years because everyone knows an older person,
Starting point is 00:35:40 a frail older person. And unfortunately, and this is brutally true, the passage of time goes one way and the impact on mental acuity really only goes one way. And I think that's the reason that we wrote what we did, which was pretty tough, I admit. And that's because this is the toughest job in the world. And you can't run a presidency on auto queue. You can't put off an international crisis because the president is having a bad day. And yes, there may be a fulsome explanation for what happened last Thursday, but unless there is manifestly over the next coming weeks, a vibrant
Starting point is 00:36:18 Joe Biden, President Joe Biden, who can convince Americans that not just that he is capable today, but he is capable to be president for the next four years. I think that's a really tall order. And I think there is, unfortunately, whether it's because of, you know, loyalty to him or frankly, because of kind of cowardice and complacency, there is too much unwillingness in the Democratic Party to acknowledge that. This is not about detracting from Joe Biden's accomplishments. He's been, as I say, a very, very good president. But that does not necessarily mean that he is the right
Starting point is 00:36:51 person to defeat Donald Trump, which is, as you say, Joe, the most important task at hand. And I think there's a bit of, you know, a kind of unwillingness amongst people on the left, amongst Democrats to acknowledge that. It's not undermining President Biden to come clean about that and to say, actually, this man has been an extremely good president, but he is not the best person to lead the country for the next four years. Well, that is a debate that is raging inside the Democratic Party, all corners of the Democratic Party. Zannie, thank you so much. And what exciting times reporting on just a political earthquake in Britain. Great to have you here. Thank you so much.
Starting point is 00:37:34 Thank you. All right. Coming up, the man behind Project 2025, the right wing roadmap for a second Trump presidency is raising new concerns with a cryptic threat about a second American revolution. Dear Lord. We're going to be taking a look at his remarks coming up next in the morning show. We're back to Morning Joe. Former U.S. Attorney Joyce Vance has a new piece for Substack titled, Bloodless If The Left Allows It To Be. Oh, my God. I just got to say, I'm skeptical.
Starting point is 00:38:22 These people talking about a second American revolution. Good luck. Good luck whipping people into a frenzy. I don't think they're ready to give up their Friday night football, their Saturday night SEC, yet they are they are obsessed with it, obsessed with trying to start a civil war or divide America while America is stronger economically and militarily and culturally than it's ever been. about the head of the Heritage Foundation and the architect of Project 2020-25, Kevin Roberts, who recently suggested there's going to be a new American revolution. Listen to his comments from earlier this week. The left has taken over our institutions. The reason that they are apoplectic right now, the reason that so many anchors on MSNBC, for example, are losing their minds daily is because our side is winning. And so I come full circle on this response and just want to encourage you with some substance that we are in the process of the second American revolution, which will remain bloodless if the left allows it to be. Yeah. OK, so that's Kevin. Kevin Roberts,
Starting point is 00:39:47 is that right? First of all, Kev, I'm not losing my mind. I'm I'm actually talk. You know what I talk about, Kevin? Like I talk about how great America is. I say it all the time, all the time. Talk about how great our military is. I get sick and tired of people like you trashing our military, talking about how weak our military is. It's not weak. Our military is stronger than it's ever been. The communist Chinese are scared of us. Russia is scared of us. Our enemies are scared of us. I'm not talking down America. I'm actually very bullish on America. Like Warren Buffett, after the 2008 collapse, Warren Buffett said only a fool would bet against the United States of America.
Starting point is 00:40:35 I believed that then. I believed it my entire life. And I believe it now. You're the one talking about revolution. Why are you so angry, Kevin? Why are you losing your mind? America's great. We're strong militarily.
Starting point is 00:40:53 We're strong economically. We're strong culturally. We're strong culturally than ever before. There's some things that we need to improve on. We need to do a better job building community. Be great, Kevin, if you'd focus on that, building community and not trying to divide people, but unite people, bring them together. I'd love to see the church pews fill back up. That would provide some community as well. But this whole idea that we need a new revolution. I mean, I know it's great fundraising, but it's just BS.
Starting point is 00:41:32 And as far as people on MSNBC, I don't know if they're freaking out. I'm not freaking out. It's not because we're losing. Let me get some iced tea here, Kevin, because I'm going to drink to you. Man, I'm going to have to give up sweet tea one day, but that day is not today. But Kevin, just a little reminder, Trump Republicans lost in 2017. Trump Republicans lost in 2018. Trump Republicans lost in 2019. Trump Republicans lost in 2020. Trump Republicans lost in 2021.
Starting point is 00:42:16 Trump Republicans lost in 2022. Trump Republicans lost in 2023. And it's Trump Republicans talking about revolution because you can't win at the ballot box. So please, who's freaking out? I didn't see people at MSNBC like starting riots on January the 6th. I didn't see people at MSNBC bear spraying cops, are crushing cops heads inside of doors, are defecating. No, that's your side, Kev. That's your side. The so-called hostages, as Donald Trump calls them. Yeah, you guys are the ones who've been freaking out. So I don't know why you're so angry.
Starting point is 00:43:14 Try reading the red letters in the New Testament and just take a deep breath. It's going to be OK. We're not going to have a second American revolution. We're not going to have a civil war. Americans, they're OK. They're OK. They respect each other too much to do that. I want to bring in Joyce now. She joins us. She's a co-host of Sisters in Law podcast. Also with a special correspondent for Manny Fair and the host of Fast Politics podcast, Molly Jong Fast. Both of them off of, I'm sure, staying up all night watching fireworks.
Starting point is 00:43:52 She is, of course, an MSNBC political analyst. So, Joyce, this is a frightening document. I understand. I mean, I hear it's I hear it's really frightening. And what I want to know is, is this is this a fundraising gimmick or do they want to fundamentally remake American democracy in a way that's more authoritarian? It looks like the latter, Joe, because the context for the comments that Mr. Roberts made is Project 2025. He heads the Heritage Foundation. The Heritage Foundation has produced this immense document talking about retuning America's values. of America. It's an America that would be just for a slice of our population rather than this inclusive notion that America is a country where everybody can have their own beliefs and we can live our lives consistent with those beliefs so long as we don't infringe on other people's values. This is a sort of a Christian nationalist approach that is really in many ways this second
Starting point is 00:45:04 revolution that you're talking about as being something that Americans don't want. This is an effort to force that on other Americans. Molly, when we look at the 2025 and this guy Roberts and saying it will be bloodless if the left allows that, which in and of itself is very dangerous language. Who knows what it means? But when he says we're winning, are they winning? And is that not something that would should cause a real pause for most Americans and a challenge to the Democratic Party to get their stuff together, because if these guys are advancing, if that's not just some hype statement, it's a threat to American democracy and all of the interests that we fought to make progress over the last 50 years. Oh, absolutely. Project 2025
Starting point is 00:46:00 is a threat to American democracy, and I think that should be the top line here. But the other thing that I think is really important when you talk about Project 2025 is that Project 2025 is wildly unpopular. A lot of this stuff is not popular. And Joe was talking about this earlier. The problem Trump is having is not that he's not a charismatic guy. The problem that he's having is that the Republican Party's platform of what little is left is not popular. Right. And I mean, what's interesting about 2025 and I've written about it and I've, you know, I've read about it and it really is really important. But there are things in it like they want to regulate in vitro fertilization. Right. Think about that. IVF, wildly popular scientific marvel produced children for many, many, many people in this country. And they want to regulate it because they believe. And one of the central tenants of Project 2025 and the Heritage Foundation and this whole gestalt is that a fertilized egg is a human being.
Starting point is 00:47:10 Yeah, you know, it is Joyce. What's so pretty remarkable here is how unpopular these ideas all are. If you just look at the numbers, of course, 70 percent of Americans for a very long time were against overturning of Roe. You look at other cultural issues that Republicans, conservatives like me, when I was one, we used to win on this stuff. We used to win on social issues. Now Republicans are wildly unpopular. You look at background checks. They're the 10% against background checks. The rest of America is the 90 percent who wants universal background checks.
Starting point is 00:47:48 You look at red flag laws. They are the 20 percent that are against red flag laws. The rest of America is the 80 percent who wants red flag laws. I could keep going down the list, but these are extraordinarily unpopular things. And as far as Christian nationalism goes or whatever, they like to talk generally about values. Yeah, you know, you and I both born and raised in the Bible belt. And like I said, I think it's I do think it's a real problem. I think this that that, you know, our church pews are emptying out. But I would never in a million years think that this was something that was the government's job to to
Starting point is 00:48:33 get people back to church or to get people back. I mean, that's pastors. That's that's that's communities. That's parishioners. And so, again, this sort of view that America's lost its way and only we can get America back to where it conscience, whether we attend church or not, whether we go to a mosque or a synagogue, what form of religion, if any, we choose to practice. That's a matter of conscience. But when it comes to matters of policy, we decide those in elections in this country. We vote and then we agree in advance to abide by the will of the majority. And that's exactly what Project 2025 rejects. And here, this notion that the second revolution can be bloodless if the left will allow it to be lands is nothing short of a threat to American democracy. We should read it that way and we should take it seriously. The problem here is
Starting point is 00:49:45 it's very easy to set this aside as comments made by one man. But these are the comments made by the man who helms the Heritage Foundation, the man who wrote the introduction to Project 2025, which sets forth this very dark vision of America that's not the America that many of us would want our children to grow up in because it removes those choices from voters. And Joe, here's one great example. Molly talked about IVF. There are many others. You know, there are folks and I have a lot of friends who are conservative Republicans who believe in small government, who aren't huge fans of the Department of Education. That's a policy matter we can all debate.
Starting point is 00:50:26 But one of the points that Project 2025 makes would be an end to programs like Head Start and a phased out termination of funding for kids with special education needs. I don't think that you'll find a majority of Americans or even a strong minority who would support that sort of change in our society. We need more support for people, especially from those who would advocate against abortion, right? If you're going to force women to have children, well, we should at least provide for them. And that's why it's so important for people to understand what's in Project 2025, which seems to be the functional equivalent of Trump's plans for the next 2.0
Starting point is 00:51:07 Trump election if he wins again. All right, Joyce fans, thank you so much, as always, in coming up. It was another tough day for the New York Yankees after they got swept by the Reds. Pablo Torre joins us next to celebrate. Actually, no, he's not happy hey welcome back to morning Joe view of New York City. We got a little grim this morning, a little fogged down right after 4th of July celebrations last night. Hope you had a great 4th of July. Hope you have a great 4th of July weekend coming up. Of course, a staple of 4th of July celebrations across America are Nathan's annual Fourth of July hot dog eating contest.
Starting point is 00:52:09 And they have a new champion. Patrick Bertoletti won yesterday's contest on Coney Island, eating 58 hot dogs and buns in 10 minutes. Well, it's a personal record for Bertoletti. It doesn't even compare to former champion Joey Chestnut's all-time record of 76 hot dogs. Chestnut, who won Nathan's contest 16 times, wasn't at this year's event because of his partnership with the rival brand Impossible Foods. Chestnut did, however, take part in a different challenge in El Paso, Texas. He competed against four soldiers in an Army base, eating 57 hot dogs in five minutes. The soldiers ate a combined total of 49 hot dogs.
Starting point is 00:52:51 I don't know what's wrong with that guy. Chestnut says he's still leaving the door open to participate in Nathan's hot dog eating contest in the future. It says he's going to need an apology if he's ever going to be able to work with a major league eating contest again. With us now, the host of Pablo Torre finds out on Metal Arc Media, ESPN's Pablo Torre. Have anything to say about Joey Chestnut? It's kind of hard for me to watch that. Joey Chestnut, Joe, I want you to know this. I want America to know this, is the first athlete I ever interviewed.
Starting point is 00:53:24 I was an intern at Sports Illustrated. I covered his first Nathan's hot dog eating contest. And I've always thought about him, specifically on July 5th, even more than July 4th, because that guy needs to reckon with what's happened to him. And I don't want to be in his home on the day after this happens. Maybe the only example of somebody defeating America's military that we can safely celebrate on today's show. But it's bad. And the fact that he got signed.
Starting point is 00:53:50 It's bad to Impossible Foods, Joe, which is, of course, the fake hot dog, vegan friendly, you know, brand has created a whole bunch of actually texts and Google searches that I have seen and heard. Where is Joey Chestnut? And so will he return? In one year's time, we will find out if America's long national nightmare will be over, I suppose. Yeah. Well, thank you for giving a perfect segue into you just kind of walked right in it. Where is Joey Chestnut? Leads us to where are the New York Yankees? What has happened? Speaking of gluttony for punishment.
Starting point is 00:54:29 Look, speaking of truly like almost un-American Cold War era headlines, the Reds swept the Yankees yesterday, Joe. The Reds hadn't done this. The Reds of Cincinnati had not swept the Yankees since the 1976 World Series. For those keeping score at home as we watch this. The Yankees, I come on here and I do my best to remind everybody, look, they got 54 wins. They're still in this. They're one of the best teams in baseball.
Starting point is 00:54:59 And every time I come here, I look at, OK, how have they been doing the last 10 games? And it's like, oh, right, they're 2-8 right now. And the Reds handled them quite easily. And so this doesn't happen very often. They had not been swept, the Yankees had, in three games at all this season. This is the first time. Well, Pablo, what's the problem, man? Is it pitching?
Starting point is 00:55:17 Is it hitting? What's the problem with the Yankees right now? The problem is that they have the greatest lineup in baseball, I believe. Aaron Judge, Juan Soto, these home run hitters, these sluggers, all-stars both, amazing. But the depth, the depth is not there. And so when you look at the starting pitching also, they can't get into the seventh inning. The bench is not very helpful to them. It's one of those teams where you look at the very top and it's a World Series champion. Right below, you're like, I wish there was a little bit more help that the best players
Starting point is 00:55:50 on this team had. But, you know, there's still time. There's still time, Joe. I'm not giving up. Not giving up. No, it's a marathon, my friend. You guys are going to end up winning 108, 110 games. Red Sox, we have no chance at all. I mean, we look like Mr. Burns softball team. I mean, there's no way. That said, though, Mike Barnicle, it's been a heck of a run. I mean, you look at these young kids. I mean, you look at Duran, who, again, Duran won another game last night with an extraordinary throw, saved the game from center field. I think he's in the top five in war stats, wins above replacement. This guy just keeps going.
Starting point is 00:56:32 And the Red Sox have a young, aggressive team. And, of course, you and I both know it's all because of Alex Cora. This is Alex Cora's team. Alex Cora is the face of the Boston Red Sox, more so than any other of the young players who fill out this roster. They are playing exciting baseball. They are playing winning baseball.
Starting point is 00:56:52 They play the Yankees, three big ones this weekend in Yankee Stadium, the house that Babe Ruth didn't build, the house that George Steinbrenner built. The Yankees have played 79 games. They have played 89 games. Sorry, they've got 73 games left to play. It's a long season. The Yankees have a pretty good roster, not a complete roster. The Orioles are their biggest problem in the American League.
Starting point is 00:57:17 They might have a better roster, but they're one of four great teams in baseball. Yankees, Orioles, Dodgers, Phillies. Yeah, and I mean, again, it is a long season and you'd much rather the Yankees be being having their problems right now. It kind of like Joe Biden. You'd rather have the problems in June and July than in September and October. Pablo, a couple of things we're going to talk about first. I want to talk about U.S. soccer and just how monumentally disappointing that was. And I'm wondering, I've been hearing for about a year now, even before he announced his retirement from Liverpool, a lot of U.S. soccer fans wanting Jurgen Klopp to come to the
Starting point is 00:57:56 U.S. to coach the team again. I started hearing that months before Klopp was talking about leaving Liverpool. And when he announced that he was leaving Liverpool, I was wondering if this was lining up. I sure as heck hope it's lining up one of the greatest managers in the world. Yes. Let's just keep in mind the big picture here, as we all are humiliated by the United States being limited by the Copa America tournament in it by Uruguay earlier this week. The World Cup is coming to America in 2026, Joe. It's almost here. And so the entire point is to not squander what has been called a golden generation of young American soccer players. And so you have this young talent that has been underperforming. And the question, of course, when all of that talent underperforms is, well, who do you blame? And as much as you can individually
Starting point is 00:58:46 pick nits with Gio Reyna and Christian Pulisic and all of these young, Weston McKinney, the issue is that you have a manager in Greg Berhalter, we should say his name aloud, all of those Gs. Greg Berhalter has been an embarrassment for a really long time. When you think back to the last World Cup and he made the round of 16, you're like, OK, not bad, but also not inspiring. Why are you keeping him? Why, after this whole conflict, this soap opera with Gio Reyna and his family, did you bring him back? He got re-signed, Joe, re-signed to lead this team into the World Cup in 2026. And I can imagine no affirmative reason, literally no affirmative reason why he should still be the manager. And meanwhile, Jurgen Klopp.
Starting point is 00:59:32 Look, the problem, of course, for Mr. Klopp is that he made a ton of money managing Liverpool. Eight figures easily. And that's not what you pay typically U.S. soccer managers in the United States. But if you are serious about getting soccer in a good place before the World Cup and the world looks at this country and says, how long has soccer been the sport of the future for you guys? Then, yeah, you might want to spend a little money to get the best in the best in class. And that would be Klopp. Yeah, yeah. Spend a little bit of money and he may get an endorsement deal or two out of it if he comes to America. And finally, help me help me understand this Sunday ticket lawsuit. It's a it's a massive lawsuit. What's going on?
Starting point is 01:00:16 Yeah. The NFL is facing a almost 15 billion dollar judgment because this is an antitrust case. Treble damages. And I'll explain it this way. So Reverend Al told me he's headed to New Orleans pretty soon. Well, if you're a Saints fan, OK, and you move to like L.A. and you want to watch your Saints games, the only way you can do it is by buying what's called NFL Sunday ticket. You can't watch individual games in a package sold by your favorite team. And so all of these fans combined into a class action lawsuit and they sued the NFL saying, this is anti-competitive.
Starting point is 01:00:48 We shouldn't have to spend $350 to pay for all of the games that all of the teams put out. We should be able to buy them individually or just the ones we want to buy. And this has been going on for a decade, Joe. I started monitoring this years and years ago. Roger Goodell gambled, said,
Starting point is 01:01:03 I don't want to settle this case. And he lost. And so this may head to the Supreme Court ultimately. And at stake here is nothing short of how sports business actually operates, because all of these leagues have these deals where they say you got to buy everything or you get nothing if you want to watch out of market games, as they're called. And so if you're Jerry Jones, for instance, Joe, he said in this trial, he knows he's going to make a lot more money selling his Cowboys games a la carte than, say, the Cincinnati Bengals will. And so how this case resolves is going to have real impacts for how the sport actually is played, how teams are built. It's a giant, giant sports business story that's actually just started,
Starting point is 01:01:45 I think, and again, may go to the highest court in the land. Yeah, it doesn't, you know, it seems to me it probably will go to the highest court. And I would guess they would overturn the judgment because it's the NFL's property and they can decide what they want to do with it and what they don't want to do with it. Seems to me the problem is here, though, if you're selling things a la carte, like the plaintiffs want in this lawsuit, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer. If you did this in baseball with MLB, the Yankees would get richer, the Red Sox would get richer, the Dodgers would get richer, you know, and the Pirates and the royals would be suffering. You'd create a two tiered system. I mean, I've got to say in this case, looks like we want to be on the side
Starting point is 01:02:33 of the NFL on this because, man, you talk about creating a two class system with this lawsuit. Yeah. If you are in favor of the way sports has been, which is to say a level of parity that has been enabled because the financial system says that we got to treat each of these teams equally. It's just one of those stories in sports, Joe, which I find fascinating, where anti-competitiveness when it comes to consumer protection is in conflict with anti-competitiveness when it comes to how these teams are able to fund themselves and compete on the field. And so, yeah, if you're a sports fan, this is scary. If you're a small market team, as always, this is scary.
Starting point is 01:03:10 If you're a Cincinnati Bengals fan, again, this is scary. You don't have to be a Cowboys fan to realize this is going to change how all of us maybe get to keep our favorite players. And that's something that everyone's going to realize if this thing goes the other way. Yep. All right. The host of Pablo Torre finds out on Metal Art Media, ESPN's Pablo Torre. As always, thank you so much.

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