Morning Joe - Morning Joe 7/7/22

Episode Date: July 7, 2022

British PM Boris Johnson expected to resign

We are following breaking news from the United Kingdom, a live picture from 10 Downing Street. Right now, British Prime Minister Boris Johnson expected to announce his resignation as Conservative Party leader. It comes amid a major revolt from his party after a series of scandals. Johnson essentially forced out as dozens of members of his government from cabinet level down resigned over the past two days. We'll have the very latest. Meanwhile, here at home, the seventh victim in the Fourth of July Highland Park massacre has been identified. The suspect in the case is ordered held without bond as prosecutors talk about his confession, what they're saying about

plans for a second attack. Also troubling developments at the massacre at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas. A report shows officers missed multiple opportunities to take out the gunman, including before he even entered the school. It's just unbelievable. Plus, NBC News confirms former Trump White House counsel Pat Cipollone will sit down for a deposition with the January 6th committee tomorrow. Will he help connect the dots? And the Georgia prosecutor investigating election interference in her state makes it clear if her investigation uncovers crimes committed by former President Trump, he will be held accountable. We'll have her exclusive interview with NBC News.

Plus, two former FBI directors spurned by Trump get swept up in highly invasive and rare tax audits that are supposed to be random. Wow. Were they targeted? That daily double, the odds on that daily double, pretty extraordinary, really. Yeah, that's a coincidence. Yeah, it was a special audit that very few Americans got. But somehow, somehow, right after Donald Trump was upset with James Comey and McCabe, both of them hit the daily double. The odds pretty extraordinary. We're going to be talking to

Michael Schmidt, who broke that story, Willie. Yeah, that's a tough exact day, even for the two of us. I think the odds are something like one in twenty thousand to be audited that way. And just purely by coincidence, the two of them who incurred Donald Trump's wrath, of course, eventually both were fired, were audited. We've got some new details, as you said, from Michael Schmidt in just a minute. Wow, that is incredible. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It's Thursday, July 7th. Along with Joe, Willie and me, we have White House pair chief Ed Politico and the host of way too early, Jonathan Lemire and a host of news to get to this morning.

Let's start with reports that British Prime Minister Boris Johnson may resign today. His government is on the brink of collapse after a series of scandals ultimately led to insurmountable political challenges. The boisterous British politician could just not overcome. The prime minister rose to power on the crest of a populist wave that led to Brexit's passing, Donald Trump's victory and the rise of right wing populist figures across Europe. With Johnson's collapse, Trump's post-election woes are only accelerating by the day. And with Marine Le Pen's crushing defeat in France, the rise of right wing populism in the West may soon be limited to the confines of cable news hosts and a dwindling number of dimwitted representatives in Congress. Congress will talk about that coming up. But first, let's go live right there to 10 Downing

Street and NBC News senior digital reporter Alexander Smith. Alex, what more can you tell us? Well, we're still waiting, quite frankly. The press cordon across the street from number 10 Downing Street is really starting to pack up now. Obviously, the reports are widespread that Boris Johnson does plan to resign today. Some reports saying that that could come as early as about hours time, noon local time. Those reports are unconfirmed. But what we do know is that the prime minister's spokesperson has said so far that the prime minister is expected to make a speech today. So that is ominous in and of itself as you say the last few days few weeks few months even of british politics

have really been an extraordinarily wild ride the resignations have just been coming and coming today perhaps most extraordinary among the statements nadimadeem Zahawi, who just yesterday was appointed the finance minister after the previous finance minister resigned. He has now called for the prime minister to go. So very widespread calls for Boris Johnson to resign his post. Until now, he has been clinging on with his fingernails in defiance of seemingly most of his party. But it seems that today he may have finally realized that the game is up. And Alex, it just became unsustainable. At last check this morning, 53 resignations from his own cabinet.

There just isn't a functioning government at that point. But can you walk us through a little bit, Alex, what brought us to this day? It wasn't just these late resignations from cabinet officials of why Boris Johnson may be compelled to step outside that famous black door behind you and resign in a short time from now. It's an extraordinary story. Less than three years ago, in December 2019, Boris Johnson secured a historic election victory, swept to a landslide in the Houses of Parliament. And, you know, he was really known as a totemic figure within the Conservative Party,

someone who had delivered Brexit, someone who had secured a Brexit deal with the European Union where other people had failed. And there were predictions then that he may go on to rule for 10, 15 years as this kind of talismanic figure, this force of personality. And really, it's incredible how different today's situation is from those times less than three years ago. And we got here by essentially six months of rolling scandal. Now, you mentioned at the start that the latest allegations are that Boris Johnson knew about sexual assault allegations against his deputy chief whip when he appointed him and ignored the warnings about this person. But that really is just a straw that broke the camel's back.

We've had a litany of scandals, including sleaze allegations, claims of bullying in other government departments, questions over who paid for the lavish wallpaper and redecoration of the Prime Minister's residence. And of course, the one that viewers may be most familiar with, Partygate. And that saw Boris Johnson being the first sitting Prime Minister in the UK to be essentially accused of and charged with committing a crime by the police. He stood up in Parliament and assured fellow lawmakers that no parties happened during Covid lockdowns while the rest of the country was staying inside, you know, keeping their distance. He stood up in Parliament, assured fellow lawmakers that no parties happened. And it turned out he was at some of the parties himself.

So in terms of his credibility, this really is not a dispute about policy. It's not about what the government wants to do in the rest of the country. It's really about Boris Johnson's character, who he is as a man. And it's a through line running through not just his political career, but his life before that, which has come to this stage. And opinion polls show that most of the countries just do not trust him anymore. And it seems like his party is coming around to the same idea as well. So, Alex, I wanted to ask you about that is history of lying. Of course, we in America aren't quite as familiar with all the lies. We have our own former liar in chief to follow those lies daily. But Boris Johnson, going back to 1988,

sacked by The Times for lying, making up quotes. He started writing columns for The Telegraph, caught lying and exaggerating in one column after another. Of course, one lie after another after he became British prime minister, lied about these covid. But Brits knew that the Conservative Party knew that and they accepted him. They understood that's just who he was. He lied and they wanted him in power after Brexit. I guess the question is, why are they now finally saying enough? We're sick and tired of his lies. I think you're absolutely right. And I think that few people were under any illusions about who Boris Johnson is and was when he was elected mayor of London, when he was elected as prime minister in 2019. But I think the bargain that lots of people made was that they were prepared to accept those foibles, you know, if you want to put it mildly, because of the force of personality that Borisis johnson is he's really seen or was seen at least by many as a unique uh figure who sort of cut through to the mainstream and really broke out of the political

bubble into the mainstream he was a household name when he was mayor of london you know he would do these kind of goofy uh things in public you probably remember him halfway up a zip wire waving union jack flags but i guess people were always prepared to accept that he maybe had some flaws in his character because he was he was able to um rally people around him like few other politicians could but now that bargain has obviously tipped too far the other way and people are starting to say actually that's a price that's too much uh you know to pay essentially and that the i mean lies are a very charged word in british politics and people are reluctant to use that word. But we can say at the very least that Boris Johnson has a record of saying things which either at the time were demonstrably

false or turned out not to be true. And so that's where we are today. And it's, you know, it's really a measure of just how that thinking has changed within the Conservative Party, that they are no longer prepared to accept that bargain. And they really see Boris Johnson as more of an electoral liability than electoral asset. And for the Conservative Party, which really has a ruthless history of gaining and hanging on to power, they really are the party of power in post-war British politics. That is the key thing here. Boris Johnson is going to cost them their seats in the next election. And that's just something not prepared to accept. NBC's Alexander Smith. Great job. Thank you so

much. And Joe, so interesting. So many potential parallels and trends going on here. There are a lot. I will say that Willie will remember when I tried to do the zip wire across the Rockefeller Plaza ice skating rink, just like Boris Johnson. I got stuck there. You know, it snapped. And weirdly enough, I, too, had a helmet on and was waving Union Jacks. It didn't really make any sense to any of us. But, you know, that time in your life was a dark period for you. It was the aughts.

It was aught seven, aught eight. I don't remember exactly when it was, but I'd you. It was the odd. It was odd seven, odd eight. I don't remember exactly when it was, but I'd like to just forget about it. Really. So it's interesting. You know, we keep hearing and we've heard about the rise of the authoritarians and Western democracy on the skids. We heard we've heard about the rise of the right wing populist and it's going to overtake Western democracy. And we saw with Boris Johnson, we saw with Brexit, we saw with Donald Trump. There is, without a doubt, a growing sense of exhaustion. Boris Johnson getting the boot from from his own party suggests that it's not just happening here because we're starting to hear more and more about it with Donald Trump. It's not just happening in France where the French people said, yeah, we don't like Macron, but man, we're not voting for the crazy woman. And and we're seeing it. We're seeing it

really across now Great Britain and across a lot of Europe, that it looks like the age of the right wing populace with with Johnson's departure may be may be coming to a short, short end. It was a fall spring, but wow, a spring with some very, very bad hair. Really, as you look at this collage of photographs, never really arrived at a haircut that made anybody happy. But that's Donald Trump. I mean, look at Trump's hair. Look, it is. It is just something about these right wing populists.

I mean, good Lord. You know what is interesting to note about this, if Boris Johnson, the prime minister, does in fact resign today, is that his own party is showing that there is accountability, that there are standards of ethics and character. And it feels like here in the United States, we don't see that, obviously, among Republicans with Donald Trump, but a party that's willing to say to someone that they thought was the vessel for the things they wanted to get Brexit done, as he promised during his campaign, they're saying, no, actually, there's a line you can't cross. We're all going to resign and run you out of office. That doesn't happen here. Maybe that will change. We haven't seen it yet among Republicans, though. And Donald,

to your larger point about authoritarians, we will see if Donald Trump runs for president again. We'll learn whether that tide has really been turned back, not just in Europe, but here in the United States. Well, we'll also see if our long held belief that no man is above the law is once again skirted and Donald Trump is above the law. More investigations going on, more shocking revelations coming out of January the 6th, an investigation in Georgia where he's caught on tape trying to rig an election there. We'll see whether that's the case, too. Jonathan O'Meara, though, Donald Trump is without shame. He refused to leave, even though about 80 million voters told him, get out of the White House,

tried to destroy our Constitution, tried to destroy our tradition of peaceful transfers. And my question is, there's just something in me. I just wonder whether Boris Johnson will be without shame also. I hear he's talking about stepping down, but there's something in me that says he may not give up quite so easily. Well, certainly he has tried to cling to power to this point in the face of allegations and calls for his resignation for quite some time. Let's remember, it was only about a month back he faced a vote of no confidence, which he survived barely and at the time thought was then sort of insulated from challenges to his power because by law he can't face another one of those for a year.

But this growing scandal has just escalated, the most recent being accusations that one of his appointees had exhibited some sexual actions of sexual misconduct at one of these parties that the prime minister claimed he never had and never attended. And he did both of those. And it does seem like, though, his party, the conservatives are saying to him, hey, enough is enough. And maybe some of that is moral high ground. But it's also just about looking at the next election. And they thought Johnson was going to cost them seats. And that might be if the Republicans ever get there with Trump, that's probably going to be

the same motive. It's not going to be they're going to suddenly condemn Donald Trump and his behavior, but rather they're afraid he's going to cost them some seats. I know some Republicans already right now are worried that if Trump were to suddenly announce his reelection bid for 2024 now, it could damage their chances this coming midterms. And they're asking him not to do that. Just briefly, lastly, on Johnson, the White House, no official response yet, of course. Certainly, President Biden and Boris Johnson, not exactly close personally, despite that

chummy photograph we're looking at right now. Boris Johnson, frankly, had a tour de force last week in a pair of summits in Europe where he was disheveled. I'm putting it mildly. And at one moment called out to his fellow world leaders G7 ride for life, which now I think may have been a last hurrah or cry for help. But certainly the biggest concern for the White House would be, does his replacement, does this impact at all the effort to back up Ukraine?

They don't think so. But yes, there's a great series of photographs of Boris Johnson losing articles of clothing as the summit in Germany went along. At some point, his jacket was gone. His shirt was untucked. And I kid you not, asked his fellow world leaders if in an intimidating message to Putin, if they should all remove their shirts and show off their pecs. Let me, you know, Willie, just for those that haven't followed Boris Johnson's storied career,

this is a man who in his first run for parliament promised everybody promised men and an audience. I don't know if we can quote it this early. He said, well, I better not say anyway. It had something to do with BMWs. Yes. Their wives. It was horrible. And money in their pocket.

It's the sort of thing. Well, I don't know. I don't know. It's the sort of thing, well, I don't know. I don't know. It's the sort of thing you wouldn't say in northwest Florida if you wanted to get elected. Back in my day. You described this disheveled look, and Jake Sherman comes to mind for some reason. Yeah, exactly. Go ahead.

Wow. Exactly. Totally. Speaking of hair, we're going to get to the rest of the news in a second. But Lemire's hair looking pretty good. That I was looking pretty good. It's you know what? Yeah. You know, Warren Zevon would say and his hair was perfect.

It is. Yes. Looking good. It's adorable. All right, Willie. Look, speaking of the other hand. Yeah. Jake, come on, Jake.

What's Jake wearing? Khakis. Yeah, right. You know, he's got's Jake wearing? Khakis. Yeah, right. You know, he got up early for John. He did. I appreciate it. I appreciate it. He set the alarm, but he didn't leave himself enough time to get dressed, apparently.

He did not get up early. He rolled out of bed and turned on his Zoom. That's what it looked like. Jeez. Yes. I know. I mean, I've seen him wear that chocolate brown polyester jacket. Just throw that one on. That'll cover up a multitude of sins.

You've got to watch Wait Till Early to catch this stuff. Good Lord. Willie, you had some news. That was Jake Sherman's last appearance on Wait Till Early. I think he won't be answering that call again. No, this was love. This was love. It's tough love. Jake, Jake, just pretend you care. That's all we're saying. Just just just pretend.

Just like you always say, TV show. You're not on radio. G7 ride for life. G7 ride for life. I think it's the same thing Vin Diesel said in the Fast and the Furious. Yeah, that was one of the lesser sequels. The Fast and Furious 7 ride for life. We're going to get back to the UK. We're going to get back to Boris Johnson, back to 10 Downing in just a few minutes. We're watching closely. We may hear from him soon. Formal resignation, we will see. But we want to turn to the investigation into the attack on our United States Capitol. A former White House counsel who some lawmakers have called the missing link in

the House January 6th investigation has now agreed to speak with the committee. After being subpoenaed last week, Pat Cipollone, NBC News can confirm, will sit down with lawmakers for a transcribed interview behind closed doors. Cipollone, who was in the West Wing during the insurrection, has been mentioned by several other witnesses during the House hearings. According to them, he repeatedly pushed back against the White House efforts to overturn the 2020 election results and often voiced his concerns directly to Trump himself. But until now, Cipollone has refused to cooperate with the House investigation, citing attorney client and executive privilege. Joining us now, New York Times congressional reporter Luke Broadwater. Luke, good morning. So obviously, Pat Sotolone's name came up a lot in the jarring testimony from Cassidy Hutchinson last week. Seems like he had to now step forward, or at least the committee needed to hear what he had to say to fill in some

of those blanks and at least to corroborate some of what she said. How is this? What does it mean to be a transcribed interview? Are we going to see him? What is this going to look like next week? Yes, this is a very important development for the committee. Pat Cipollone is an extremely key figure who is there for several of the major moments in this plot to overturn the election. And he may know things that we don't even know about yet that he could reveal to them tomorrow during this interview. I do expect Pat Cipollone's testimony to be played next week at some of the hearings. There was conversations about whether he should testify live in front of the public.

Liz Cheney had called for that. But the committee does like to know exactly what a person is going to say before they go up there. They don't want to turn one of these televised hearings into, you know, a food fight. So they they like to know exactly what a person is going to say before they decide to put them out there. So I think we'll see Pat Cipollone video clips, but not necessarily Pat Cipollone sitting at the witness stand. So and the privilege, privilege would be, would it not, from your understanding, legal recommendations he made to the president, anything touching on his representation

of the president where he and the president would have attorney-client privilege where they're just talking to each other. But so I would guess the comments that he made to Cassidy Hutchison, which would not be privileged. Yes, that was sort of the sticking point in the negotiations. Everyone conceives that Pat Cipollone does have attorney client privilege with Donald Trump. And he had sort of resisted coming forward and talking about some of those things.

So I don't think we'll see him necessarily talk about direct conversations with Donald Trump. But that doesn't mean he can't talk about lots of other material. You know, we heard Cassidy Hutchinson talk about how Pat Cipollone and Mark Meadows were going back and forth into the Oval Office to try to get Donald Trump to call off the mob. Can he talk about the things he said to Cassidy? Can he talk about the things he said to Mark Meadows? You know, we know he was there for meetings about seizing voting machines.

He was there when Bill Barr offered his resignation. He was there when they had draft letters to false draft letters from the Justice Department and for when he shot down plans from members of Congress or from John Eastman to put forward false slates of electors. I mean, there are so many things that Pat Cipollone knows, and I think his testimony could be absolutely crucial for this committee. And he was probably the biggest witness left that they that they could get that they hadn't yet. So, you know, I expect this interview to be very important tomorrow. Hey, Luke, Jonathan Lemire certainly aids to the former president concerned.

The White House counsel now cooperating, at least to an extent. Give us a sense of this committee has had these hearings so tightly scripted, each hitting a theme, really building towards a narrative. The one they've announced on Tuesday is about the presence of some of these hate groups, the Proud Boys, the three percenters, et cetera, would not seem that Pat Cipollone's testimony would really fit in there. So what's your anticipation as to when we will hear from this White House counsel, when that hearing could look like? What sort of themes might they hit? I would guess that they use Pat Cipollone's testimony during the final hearing, which we expect to be about what they call the 187 minutes of an action. That's those three hours from roughly one o'clock past four o'clock where Donald Trump does nothing as the mob is storming the Capitol. We've heard some testimony already that he was agreeing with the mob, that he was endorsing the chance of hang Mike Pence. And we do expect Sarah Matthews testimony, former deputy press secretary, to be used during that time. And so I think we'll hear a lot from him then.

But depending on what Pat Cipollone says on video, this committee has been known to throw out the playbook before, throw out the plan. And if he tells them something they didn't anticipate or found truly explosive, I think we could potentially see that at any time. All right, New York Times congressional reporter Luke Broadwater, thank you so much for being with us. We greatly appreciate it. And unlike certain punch bowl reporters, he actually got dressed for the hit. Yeah, he looks good. Yeah, he does. I mean, again, the bar is low. I mean, look at me. But still. So, Lamir, you this is your beat, obviously. It's been your beat for a very long time. And you've got a book coming out about it.

I'm curious, what do you expect to hear from Pat Cipollone? And what holds do you think are the most important ones in the timeline that he could fill in? The Big Lie, out July 26. Thanks for that plug, Joe. Cipollone, I knew you were going to say that that. You got to be subtle. I say you got a book coming out. You just start talking, right? And then we could go, oh, by the way, big layout, July. We'll coordinate that better the next time. Yeah. Cipollone, look, Cipollone is someone who is going to anticipate to exert extraordinary privilege for some of the conversations with the foreign president, as Luke just said. However, where he's going to anticipate to exert ex-attorney client privilege for some of the conversations

with the former president, as Luke just said. However, where he's going to be really important is corroborating the testimony we've already heard from Cassie Hutchinson, but others. And we know from previous reporting that he, on January 6th, was warning anyone in earshot about how bad things were going and how he felt that there could be criminal liability that very day. He expressed at one point to an aide that he thought Donald Trump could face some sort of charge on January 6th. Now, that, of course, didn't come to be. We know it's very complicated and potentially not possible to charge a sitting president. But he is keenly aware of the illegality, the potential illegality of what was happening

there and is going to be someone the committee aides tell us they anticipate painting in stark detail that Donald Trump knew exactly what was going on. He knew that it was wrong and that this could be a real problem for the former president as Department of Justice carefully watches these hearings. It's going to be fascinating watching the hearings. And I suspect DOJ is going to be watching, too. And Willie, just one one one side note. I just want to thank you. And Nico wants to thank you, too, for taking the sandwich boards off of Lemire as he was walking in that said the big lie out July. That was nice. He literally had the sandwich boards, which would have, of course, eclipsed that beautiful tie of his. So thank you for doing that. And it didn't work great because it was 3 o'clock in the morning.

There's not a lot of people on the streets, but he was trying anyway. Times Square again? Yeah, that's good. All right, big lie out in July. Still ahead on Morning Joe. We'll be keeping an eye on London. You guys are so punchy. Is it Friday?

It's not. They cuffed him. They put a bag over his head. We've got to wear something under the sandwich board. That was the problem. That note-taking. Yeah. You guys are so punchy. Is it Friday? They cuffed him. They put a bag over his head. There's just so much. We've got to wear something under the sandwich board. That was the problem. That note-taking. Yeah.

Yeah. Thank God. We'll be keeping an eye on London and the reported resignation that is coming from British Prime Minister Boris Johnson. Meanwhile, back here at home, we'll look at the limits of red flag laws in the aftermath of the Highland Park shooting. Plus, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis is a strong contender for the GOP presidential nomination in 2024. But he could face a challenge from another Republican governor who is reportedly eyeing

the White House. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back. Welcome back to Morning Joe. It is 31 past the hour. Turning back to news here at home, prosecutors in Illinois say the Highland Park suspect has confessed to the July 4th massacre. The 21-year-old appeared in court yesterday and was ordered held without bail. Officials say he acknowledged climbing a fire escape staircase to the rooftop of a downtown building before shooting into the crowd, killing seven and injuring dozens more. We're told he emptied at least one 30-round magazine and reloaded twice. As he ran from the scene, officials say he dropped and left the AR-style semi-automatic rifle used in the attack. It was later recovered by investigators and traced

back to the defendant. After escaping from Highland Park, officials say he then drove 140 miles to Madison, Wisconsin, where he considered attacking a second July 4th event. This is the gun officials say he carried with him to Madison, along with about 60 rounds of ammo. It was found in the car after he was arrested. Do you believe his plan was to go to Highland Park and then to Madison all along? We don't have information to suggest he planned on driving to Madison initially to commit another attack. We do believe that he was driving around following the first attack and saw the celebration. Indications are that he hadn't put enough thought and research into it. We now know the identity of the seventh victim of the Highland Park mass

shooting. Sixty nine year old Eduardo Uvaldo died of his injuries in the hospital. He had been on life support since Monday's shooting. He attended the parade with his wife and grandson, who were both also wounded. Joining us now from Highland Park, Illinois, NBC News correspondent Dasha Burns with the very latest. Dasha, how are people coping? What's the latest there? Mika, good morning. You know, this is a community where people have told me they always, always felt safe.

And now they say that that sense of safety, that sense of comfort here has been ripped away from them. And look, when the cameras go away, when the caution tape comes down, when that street behind me gets opened up again, people have to walk that street where this tragedy happened. They're going to be processing this for a long time. And especially some of the youngest people who were at this parade. You know, this is a place where kids were so excited to come because they would get candy, they would get prizes. They were excited to see the floats go by. I spoke with two little girls, nine-year-old

Lily and 11-year-old Sydney. They wanted to do this interview, Mika, because they wanted other kids to know that it's okay to be scared, that it's okay to talk about your feelings. Take a listen to some of what they told me. I'm still scared of maybe some louder noises, like when there was fireworks. That scared me. I'm still scared of big noises, like police sirens and stuff. I'm probably not going gonna go to any more parade i just feel scared that now parades um thinking about this would happen again mika they told me that their dad grabbed them screaming run they had to hide inside

of a local business they say that they're still getting stomachaches at night, that they're having a hard time sleeping. You heard them say there they don't want to go to a parade ever again. These are the kinds of stories that we're hearing over and over and over again. And imagine being a parent having to help your child cope with something like this, the tragedy that you went through with them. It's just unbelievable to hear these stories, Mika. And how to explain it. NBC's Dasha Burns, thank you so much. We appreciate it. And coming up, there's talk of a Southern governor making a run for president, but it's not the one you might be thinking of. Virginia Republican Glenn

Youngkin may be testing the waters, bringing something to the race that Governor Ron DeSantis does not. How Youngkin could bring some suburban voters back into the GOP, next on Morning Joe. Together, together, we will change to start that transformation on day one. There is no time to waste. This is the spirit of Virginia coming together like never before. The spirit of Washington and Jefferson and Madison and Monroe and Patrick Henry of Virginia standing up and taking our commonwealth back. So, Joe, that's obviously Virginia Governor Glenn Youngkin in November of last year after winning the state's gubernatorial race. What do you what do you think about that? And Glenn Youngkin overall?

Well, you know, I've got to say he is a more traditional Republican than what we've seen over the past five, six years. He doesn't go around, I don't think, carrying AR-15s. That's good. He tries to avoid looking too extreme. The national press was focused on his talks about CRT and keeping it out of schools. People were paying closer attention to his opponent, saying basically parents need to mind their own business when it comes to the teaching of their their children in school. That was obviously a gaffe that really hurt Terry McAuliffe. But also the ads that he was running, they were ads to cut sales tax on groceries at a time when inflation was starting to really grow. So there is some Republicans I've been talking to over the past week think there may be a path forward for Yunkin. If Donald Trump continues to take on water, as he's been doing with the January 6th hearings, as we're seeing in Georgia.

But also if the questions linger about Ron DeSantis, you know, Ron DeSantis, who who's been basically called the great white hope by so many, so many in the Trump faction. You know, the guy polls even with Kamala Harris, despite the fact he's been called the next big thing by by the national media on the left and the right for the past year and is Trump's successor. So it'll be interesting to see if there is a pathway for Youngkin. I suspect, despite the fact he's not a fire breather in the vein of DeSantis and Trump, I suspect that if those two fall, he's next in line. So joining us now, senior political

correspondent for The Washington Examiner, David Drucker. And David's latest article in The Examiner is entitled GOP Governor Glenn Youngkin Expands Political Operations as 2024 Speculation Grows. So is he thinking about it, David? He's thinking about it. You know, what he's trying to do over the next several months is see how he likes the national scene. You know, a lot of people will say that he hasn't only been governor for less than a year. And in a normal political environment, we'd say, who bothers with this after they've only been governor a year? Why don't you finish a term, take your time and then see what's going to happen in terms of any presidential ambitions you have. But he only has one term to serve as governor. He can serve

multiple terms, but not consecutively. And so his options are do nothing after his first four years are up, wait for 2029 to run for governor of Virginia again, wait for 2028 to run for president. And we have learned over the past 10 years or so that timing is everything. You strike when you're hot. Voters are not as interested in an expansive political resume the way they might have been in decades past. Chris Christie, many people feel, missed his moment in 2012. Barack Obama, the former president, clearly did not miss his moment in 2008, just four years after bursting onto the national scene with that Democratic convention speech. And so I don't think there's anything in the timing that's wrong here.

I think part of it is, number one, as Youngkin fans out across the country to stump for Republicans on the 2022 ballot, does he really take to it the way he took to the campaign trail in Virginia? Does he like it? Does he want to do it? And if he wants to do it, he can even cede his campaign with tens of millions of dollars of his own money. The second thing is, and this is really interesting, Joe and Mika, a lot of Youngkin supporters believe his best path to the presidency through a Republican primary is a Republican primary in which Trump runs. Because the thinking goes here, Trump will box out anybody else that wants to be like him, a Ron DeSantis, a Mike Pompeo, anybody else. And then Youngkin gets a very fresh contrast and is the new fresh-faced leader option for Republicans as they pick their next presidential nominee.

In a race without Donald Trump, they can have a Trump-like candidate and a fresh face all in one, and then it becomes a little bit more difficult for the Virginia governor. Yeah, David, Terry McAuliffe, who ran against Glenn Youngkin in that race in Virginia, and some pundits in the press tried to make Glenn Youngkin out to be Donald Trump in a fleece vest, but it turned out to Virginia voters he was basically Mitt Romney in their eyes. So to the point you're making there. Mitt Romney, who's better on the stump, too. Sure. Yeah.

But to the point you just made, your second point, is there really room in a primary for Glenn Youngkin, for anyone whose name is not Donald Trump, if Donald Trump, in fact, wants to run? Is that sort of just a spoiler campaign? Does he get a handful of votes in the suburbs? Isn't Donald Trump really in the driver's seat of this party if he wants it? Well, Donald Trump's always going to be in the driver's seat at the outset if he wants it, right? He's got the name ID. He's got the money into his political committees, not to mention

his own money. He was president. And, you know, when you've done the job, that's a big hurdle. We haven't seen a campaign like this before, but we've seen one when you're running for a second term. You're automatically presidential because you've been president. But there are a lot of Republicans that are going to run anyway, right? There are Republicans that have worked for Donald Trump that have not worked for Donald Trump. Not every candidate wants to be in their late 70s when they run for president or possibly become president. And so you have Republicans in their late 50s to late 60s to early 70s by the time the campaign starts that are not going to simply decide to wait around for 2028 or 2032. And they're going to take a look at an open seat and give it a shot now. And even though Trump remains very strong with Republican voters, a lot of the struggles that he's had in these key primaries where his endorsed candidates have lost

have made Republicans who want to take his place think that it's worth giving it a shot. And so then you ask the question, could Young can compete with Trump? Look, we don't know. And running for president is not the same as running for governor. So he can run and fall flat on his face. When you have Republicans coming at you rather than Democrats or the media, it's a totally different ballgame. But he does present as a contrast, right? He's a throwback to a 1980s, 1990s-style, sunny conservative who is still very conservative. If you look at his record as governor, if you look at the positions he has taken, they can accuse him of being a moderate or a centrist, but he's not one. But he's just got this different way about him. And that's why people that like him believe he could be a perfect contrast for Trump. Whereas without Trump in the race, you're looking at a

number of candidates that we've discussed who would automatically be the fresh face, but also provide that sort of populist pugilism that so many Republican primary voters like with Trump. So, David, if the former president decides not to run, we'll have an extraordinarily crowded GOP field. But let's get you to put on your forecasting hat. Let's say Trump does run. Which Republican, you're really plugged in with the GOP, which Republican contenders do you think would go ahead and launch their own campaign

anyway? Right. So I covered a lot of this in In Trump's Shadow, and I've talked to a lot of Republicans over the last year about this. And I think, you know, some of this now is a lot more obvious than it was when Trump left office. But I think it's very clear that former Vice President Mike Pence is gearing up to run regardless of what Trump does. I think it's very clear that Mike Pompeo, the former Secretary of State, is gearing up to run no matter what Trump does. There are people around Ron DeSantis who believe that he will run even with Trump in the race. I'm less convinced of that. I know that Arkansas

Senator Tom Cotton really wants to run in 2024. I think he's on that sort of Trump bubble. If Trump runs, he's young enough to wait it out a while. I think you have to look at Florida Senator Rick Scott, chairman of the National Republican Senatorial Committee, somebody who may run if Trump runs. And then there'll be some outliers there that we don't predict. But I think what's interesting here is for just about every name I mentioned, none of them would be considered, and I guess I should not leave out former New Jersey Governor Chris Christie, who ran in 2016, who's clearly signaling that he plans to run and take it straight to Trump. But even with him in this mix here, as critical as he's been of Trump since January 6, 2021,

none of the Republicans in this group you would consider anti-Trump or have particular animosity toward Trump from a policy perspective, or at least at the outset. Obviously, Pence is in his own little category now because of what's happened with their relationship. But none of them are, quote unquote, never Trumpers. None of them are centrists. They're all eyeing the White House. And I think a lot of them look at what Trump did in 2016 and are saying to themselves, why do I have to automatically conclude that I cannot win or should not run? So, David, let's finally, as we talk about the calculations for 2020, let's talk about Donald Trump himself. This is a guy who thought he had a way to win in 2016. He was right. If you talk to Chris Christie and others that were around him in the spring of 2020,

he knew he was in big trouble, knew he was likely going to lose. And so he started concocting the big lie about about the election being stolen so he could prepare for that loss. You talk to Republicans close to Trump. You talk to Republicans pretty high up in the party, and they're all saying the same thing. Donald Trump's done nothing to win back those voters that he lost from 2016 to 2020. He's done nothing to win back voters in the suburbs of Atlanta. He's done nothing since since the election to win back voters that he lost in the suburbs of Philly. In fact, he's become even more extreme. He's boiled his message down even more. He's limited his appeal even more. So my question

to you is, studying Trump the way you've studied Trump and, you know, knowing Trump the way I have known Trump in the past. I mean, isn't this a guy who understands that if he runs again, he can't win? And we got a hint of that when we got the reporting about him going crazy when he found out Roe was going to be overturned because he understood the reality that those suburban women that fled in 2020 will be even further away in 2024. Look, I think you raise a good point in that Trump was able in 2016 to put together a coalition of traditional Republicans and then voters that had not typically voted for anybody, right? And so he expanded the Republicans, the Republican Party's voting base.

And even though he ran into trouble in 2020, if you look at the turnout that he inspired for Republican candidates down ballot, you can't completely say that his candidacy was a bust for the party. And I think that's why they've had such a hard time getting over him or trying to shed him. Because when you look at gaining 15 seats in the House in 2016, in 2020, that a lot of that was turnout inspired by Trump and Trump's numbers with non-white voters actually improved in 2020. So then the question is, how does Trump look at this? And I think Trump and Joe, look, you know this. I mean, the man's had four bankruptcies. He just keeps coming back. Right. I mean, some people would have a little bit more shame about running into trouble like that. And he went through four

bankruptcies and then was on television as the greatest businessman ever with a decently rated show. And that's because Trump is either good at compartmentalizing or simply does not care. So does he look at this and say he cannot win? I don't know that he necessarily looks at it that way. I think he looks at an incumbent president who currently isn't doing too great in the polls. And then naturally you're going to have some buyer's remorse among some Republican voters who voted for Biden because they were exhausted with Trump. But maybe now they're looking at inflation and other matters and saying, gee, well, maybe his mean tweets weren't so bad. And Trump will selectively look at things that he wants to look at. You know, the polls that show him ahead, he promotes, right?

The polls that show him losing. Well, those are all fake news and they're manipulated by people like you and me because we don't like him. So I think he, I don't think it's a fait accompli that he's going to run. I think it's like 50-50. But I do think that Trump doesn't necessarily look at this and say, I have no hope. And, you know, all it takes is a little hope and a little desire and somebody gives it a shot. You know, Mika, in 2020, Republican candidates did well and Donald Trump underperformed them. To be remembered. In state after state after state, underperformed Republicans down ballot.

David Drucker, thank you so much. Thank you, David. Greatly appreciate it. And still ahead, a coincidental audit. Could that be coincidence? I don't know. Yeah. Like these two guys would be like have an in-depth random audit. For one person, as Willie said, it's like one in 20,000, one in 30,000 chance. You then stack one of those one in 30,000 chances on top of another one in 30,000 chances. I'm not good math,

but this is another paper trail to follow. The IRS took an extensive look at the records of two chances on top of another one in 30,000 chances. I'm not good math, but it's pretty long odds. The IRS took an extensive look at the records of two men who were frequent targets of former President Trump. We'll talk to the reporter behind that story next on Morning Joe.