Morning Joe - Morning Joe 8/15/23

Episode Date: August 15, 2023

Trump among 19 indicted in Georgia for efforts to overturn 2020 election

Good afternoon. Good afternoon. Good evening. Thank you for joining us. Donald Trump was arraigned on a New York Supreme Court indictment. Citizens in the Southern District of Florida, here in the District of Columbia. A Fulton County grand jury returned a true bill of indictment. 34 felony counts of falsifying business records. With felony violations of our national security laws conspiring to defraud the United States. Criminal racketeering enterprise to overturn Georgia's presidential election result. We today uphold our solemn responsibility to ensure that everyone stands equal before the law. We have one set of laws in this country and they apply to everyone. Their evidence can be tested in court and judged by a jury of citizens.

We look at the facts, we look at the law and we bring charges. For the fourth time in as many months, Donald Trump, the former president of the United States, is facing a criminal indictment. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Tuesday, August 15th. Let's dive right into the latest indictment for the former president. The charges are from Fulton County, Georgia, where Trump and 18 others were named in a sweeping 41 count indictment targeting alleged attempts to overturn the state's 2020 election results. Fulton County District Attorney Fannie Willis announced the charges just before midnight.

The state's role in this process is essential to the functioning of our democracy. Georgia, like every state, has laws that allow those who believe that results of an election are wrong, whether because of intentional wrongdoing or unintentional error, to challenge those results in our state courts. The indictment alleges that rather than abide by Georgia's legal process for election challenges, the defendants engaged in a criminal racketeering enterprise to overturn Georgia's presidential election result. The indictment charged under Georgia's anti-racketeering law accuses the former president and his allies of running a criminal organization that, quote, knowingly and willfully joined a conspiracy to unlawfully change the outcome of the election in favor of Trump. District Attorney Willis said she would give all defendants until August 25th to turn themselves in and would push to go to trial within six months. The indictment charges Trump

with 13 felony counts, and they are violation of the Georgia Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act, or RICO, three counts of solicitation of violation of oath by a public officer, two counts of conspiracy to commit false statements and writings, two counts of conspiracy to commit forgery in the first degree, two counts of false statements and writings, conspiracy to commit impersonating a public officer, conspiracy to commit filing false documents and filing false documents. Many of Trump's allies were also charged with various crimes, including Trump's former personal attorneys, Rudy Giuliani and John Eastman, former chief of staff Mark Meadows, former Justice Department official Jeffrey Clark, former Trump campaign

attorney Kenneth Cheesebro, former members of Trump's 2020 legal team, Jenna Ellis, Sidney Powell, Giuliani, Eastman, Clark, Cheesebro, and Powell are also allegedly co-conspirators listed in Special Counsel Jack Smith's indictment of Trump in the 2020 election case in D.C. Joining the conversation, we have U.S. special correspondent for BBC News, Katty Kay, the host of way too early White House bureau chief at Politico, Jonathan Lemire, Pulitzer Prize winning columnist in Washington at The Washington Post, Eugene Robinson, former U.S. attorney and senior FBI official Chuck Rosenberg, former U.S. attorney and MSNBC legal analyst Joyce Vance, and political reporter for

the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, Greg Blustein. So, Joe, this happened overnight. The indictment is almost 100 pages long, and some Republicans were quick to jump in front of cameras and make ridiculous parallels to this. Well, it's because they're still playing the game of politics. And they somehow missed the memo months ago that this is turned from a political facade, a political charade into a deadly, serious legal issue, regardless of where the indictments are. So they can lie all they want. They can try to puff up smoke. They can talk about Hunter Biden. As we've said before, Hunter Biden will be judged. He'll be judged in a court of law and he'll be judged by a jury. And however, that jury rules will be how things are determined. So Ted Cruz and the rest of them can can huff and puff and try to blow the house down.

But it doesn't change a damn thing about Donald Trump's future. His future rests, whether he's in jail for the rest of his life or whether he's a free man. It doesn't rest on truth social. It rests in a jury box. And that's going to be in four different jury boxes. Now, Joyce Vance, your takeaway from what you saw in Georgia last night. Well, Joe, it's a broad and a sweeping indictment, as we've all been discussing. Something that I'm intrigued by is the appearance at least 89 times in the indictment of the phrase unindicted co-conspirator. And prosecutors like Chuck and me, when you see that in an indictment, you begin to wonder if there's cooperation going on, because that suggests that the grand jury at least knows about these folks, may have heard from them.

And they appear in some key junctures in the charges that Willis brings. There's mention of an unindicted co-conspirator on January 6 and January 7 as Sidney Powell goes into Georgia, into Coffey County, and illegally accesses voting machines in that friendly county that is Republican-controlled. There's mention of unindicted co-conspirators in White House meetings in late December when obstruction of the electoral count is discussed. And it's been difficult for prosecutors who've investigated Trump to get insider cooperation in the past, both in cases like this one that are related to the election, also in cases related to Trump's other dealings.

He maintains fierce loyalty in those around him. If that bubble has finally burst and if there are unindicted co-conspirators walking into this indictment who are cooperating, Willis may well flip some of these folks who are indicted alongside Trump and be able to present a firsthand, very detailed picture of this conduct to the jury that ultimately hears the case against Donald Trump. Chuck Rosenberg, I'm curious, the defendants have 10 days to, quote, turn themselves in. What might be different in Georgia in terms of process? What will you be looking for there? And then overall, what stands out to you in this

nearly 100-page indictment? Yeah, well, first, I agree with Joyce, which is always a safe position. Broad and sweeping indictment and the number of unindicted co-conspirators, Mika, as Joyce referred to, is telling. The other thing that's really interesting to me is that the feds took a very different approach to their election interference case. Mr. Trump was the lone defendant in the federal case in D.C. with six unindicted co-conspirators. Here he is one of 19 co-defendants with 30 unindicted co-conspirators. I don't mean to suggest that one is wrong or one is right. They both may succeed.

I suspect they will. But they're very different approaches. And then to a point that Joe made, which I think is really important. Lots of people are going to say lots of things about these various cases. Folks like Senator Cruz, and I don't mean to pick on him, but he sort of volunteered. What they say has no meaning. There will be four trials unless folks plead guilty. That means there'll be 48 people, four sets of juries, 12 people on each jury who will determine whether or not these charges are valid. That's it. It's not going to be me. It's not going to be Senator Cruz. It's not going to be anyone else. We're not going to qualify for any of these juries. It's going to be 48 people

in four jurisdictions who are going to decide. Prosecutors don't put words in an indictment unless they can prove it. So assuming they can prove it, Mr. Trump is in a lot of trouble. So are a whole bunch of other people, too. That is one of the striking things about this newest indictment. The breadth and the scope, as Joyce too. That is one of the striking things about this newest indictment. The breadth and the scope, as Joyce said, the sweeping nature of the indictment, but the number of people who have been charged is utterly fascinating, complicates the case, but gives us rich detail and something to really follow in the months and perhaps years to come.

Donald Trump is largely running for president to stay out of jail. The bank shot is if he were to win the three federal cases, the federal cases against him, he can make go away. He can tell his attorney general to stand down. He can even try, if convicted already, to self-pardon. We'll see if that holds up in courts. But that's the theory. But this, this is a state case. He can't do that. He can't self-pardon. He can't make it go away. And that's the theory. But this, this is a state case. He can't do that. He can't self-pardon. He can't make it go away. And that's why those in the Trump world that I've been talking to for months now know that this case poses a particular danger, that the big lie, Joe, could come and get Donald Trump here in a way that it maybe can't somewhere else.

And we can't emphasize this enough. The indictment paints Trump as the leader of a vast, quote, criminal organization, which knowingly and willfully joined a conspiracy to unlawfully change the outcome of the election in favor of Trump. One of the members of the conspiracy, a man once known as America's mayor, Rudy Giuliani, now a part of this plot, a criminal organization for a man who once was president and wants to be again. Well, and from from what I've been told and just a little bit of reading and I'm sure others have seen this, But what causes even greater concern is he can't just talk to the governor. His supporters can't pressure the governor of Georgia to pardon him because Georgia is one of only two states where the governor does not have the power to pardon. That that power comes from a parole and clemency board, the Georgia State Board of Pardons and Paroles.

So, Jonathan, his situation even more complicated in the state of Georgia. If a jury of his peers find him guilty, then it's not going to be as simple as just putting pressure on Governor Kemp politically or having Kemp's constituents do that because it's one of two states where a governor does not have the ability to pardon somebody who's been prosecuted. Yeah, only ramps up the legal peril he faces. And Greg Blustein, you're obviously the expert here on Georgia politics. Talk to us a little bit about this racketeering charge, the RICO charge, which seems so powerful and potent here, and for Donald Trump, perilous for all the reasons we just outlined. There's no easy way out for him this time around. Yeah, that's what strikes me. This is not just a handful of indictments. These are indictments that allege a criminal enterprise involving 19 co-defendants, 41 charges, 30 unindicted co-conspirators, dozens of separate acts the prosecutors depict as a criminal conspiracy.

It ranges from the high profile cases that we've talked about for years now, including the famous infamous phone call from Donald Trump to Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger. But it also includes some lesser known issues. The folks who are accused of illegally breaching elections equipment down in Coffey County, a rural Georgia county in South Georgia. The people in charge with intimidating Ruby Freeman, a Fulton County election staffer. You know, some of these names of the suspects, of the ind indicted defendants we've been talking about for months, years now. Rudy Giuliani, John Eastman, Mark Meadows, Donald Trump, of course. But some of them are relatively new to the stage. And that's what's so fascinating about this case.

So false statements and solicitation of high ranking officials, state officials. They talk about Georgia, the secretary of state, the speaker of the House, pushing them to violate their oaths of the Georgia Constitution and the United States Constitution by unlawfully changing the outcome of the November 3rd, 2020 presidential election. Here's that phone call that everyone has heard a number of times today. It takes very significant meaning. Take a listen. I only need 11,000 votes. Fellas, I need 11,000 votes. Give me a break. So look, all I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more that we have, because we won the state. There's nothing wrong with saying that, you know, that you've recalculated. Jonathan Lemire mentioned the harassment and intimidation that took place. That's on page 17.

Also, creation and distribution of false electoral college documents. The false documents were intended to disrupt and delay the joint session of Congress on January 6th, 2021, in order to unlawfully change the outcome of the presidential election in favor of Donald Trump. Similar schemes were executed by members of the enterprise in Arizona, Michigan, Nevada, New Mexico, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. Gene Robinson sweeping to say the least. Absolutely sweeping, Mika. And, you know, that phone call we just played with Brad Raffensperger, we've all heard it a million times. It features in the indictment that special counsel Jack Smith brought. But I

think it is absolutely wrong to say that Fannie Willis, the Fulton County District Attorney, is just replowing ground that Jack Smith has already plowed. In fact, this goes much deeper, and it's so much more granular. And it details the alleged actions not only of Donald Trump, but all those co-conspirators. And in just, again, granular detail, talks about, for example, the interference with ballots and voting machines in Coffey County, the intimidation of Ruby Freeman and Shay Moss, the attempt to ruin their lives, basically. And it holds accountable not just Donald Trump, but the others who helped in what Fannie Willis has alleged was a corrupt enterprise, a racketeering enterprise to steal the election and to deny millions of Georgians their vote.

I think there is great worth in this indictment just for the detail it puts out there. And perhaps we don't need a similar indictment in every single state where he did this. But I'm awfully glad we have it in this one because we see exactly how this this I'm just going to call it this evil scheme worked. Yeah. Well, you know, it's very important what, Gene, what you just said is Fannie Willis did far more than just replow the ground that Jack Smith started to replow. Another big difference in this, Mika, is the fact that Andy McCarthy yesterday in the New York Post, yesterday afternoon before the indictments were coming down. He talked about the strengths and weaknesses of each case.

Like a lot of people said, the Manhattan case seemed to be very weak. But then he said then he said the documents case was the strongest case because it's just all there. And it's something like Jack Goldsmith also said in last week's just really chilling op-ed in The New York Times. Those are actions Donald Trump committed after he was president of the United States. And they've got him dead to right there. He had no right to steal the documents. He stole the documents. They've got the testimony. So that's the tightest case. And then it was very interesting when talking about the Georgia case. He said Fannie Willis actually has some advantages over Jack Smith because Jack Smith, he's got Trump's abhorrent conduct, but he doesn't have statutes that fit quite as tightly. In Georgia, Fannie Willis charged the former president under statute specifically drafted

for this sort of activity. So far from sort of going over again what Jack Smith did nationally, she actually has more relevant statutes to the improper, possibly illegal conduct of Donald Trump because of those Georgia statutes. McCarthy, a very conservative jurist, Andy McCarthy says, other than the docs case, the Georgia case is the strongest because it's on a state level for a state who actually anticipated in the future behavior like this. And they have specific penalties for that behavior. A lot of people were asking, why is this taking so long? I mean, what's going on in Georgia when you look at this and you read this? What she's describing is a criminal enterprise. She calls it the enterprise. And we're talking about, and I'll continue, page 18, solicitation of high ranking United States Department of Justice officials, solicitation of the vice president of the United States and unlawful breach of election equipment in Georgia and elsewhere. And it goes on to describe the cover up and to Katty K, Jonathan Lemire's point. This is Georgia. He can't run. He can't hide. He can't pardon himself. And he cannot avoid going to jail if convicted of these charges. Yeah, which is why the Georgia case has been the one that has always worried people in Trump world that I've been in contact over with the last 24 hours more than the other cases,

because even if he were to win the election, potentially he would still have this hanging over him. Now, you know, whether the the sequencing of all of this and I'd love to get Joyce to weigh you know, whether the sequencing of all of this, and I'd love to get Joyce to weigh in on this, the sequencing of all of this is going to be fascinating. First of all, does the January the 6th case go first, the federal case? It's simpler. There's just one defendant. If that then were to push the Georgia case to when? To after the campaign has all been concluded and election day?

And then if Trump were to win in 2024, then what happens to the Georgia case? Does it wait until after the presidency? Or would Fannie Willis be able to bring the Georgia case to trial while he was president? And if he were convicted, then what happens? Because he can't pardon himself. I mean, I think there are still a lot of questions we still have around the sequencing, all of this. I don't know, maybe Joyce could weigh in on that, because that seems to me critical as well, how this all plays out. Right. So the sequencing will be very interesting to watch. I mean, Trump has a full dance card to

state the obvious. I would look for prosecutors and judges to coordinate. Willis has a lot of complexity in this indictment. Lots of defendants, lots of moving parts, people who may challenge being tried together. I think we'll see a relatively quick effort to remove this case to federal court. We saw that earlier in Manhattan. Trump's lawyers will argue that he at least should be tried in federal court where he has unique federal defenses to assert because of the role he played as president. This one won't go to trial on the six month schedule that Willis said last night she wanted to see. Chuck Rosenberg, talk for a minute about the complexities of a case involving—put aside for a second—involving a former president of the United States, involving 19 defendants who are charged as being part

of a racketeering conspiracy. How does a prosecutor think about presenting such a case, and sort of delays might we expect and what sort of complications? Yeah, good questions, Eugene. So 19 co-defendants means 19 sets of defense counsel. It means 19 opening statements and 19 closing arguments. It means that every government witness would be, in theory, cross-examined 19 times. Now, if passed as prologue, a lot of these defendants will plead guilty, will cooperate, will testify at trial. But it's a big, cumbersome, complex case.

By the way, when Georgia brought RICO charges against a group of Atlanta teachers and school superintendents, I think the number who went to trial were about 10 or 12, Eugene. That trial, I think, took about six or seven months. And so it's more cumbersome, not just because you have more people in the courtroom and more people talking. It just takes longer. And so there's going to be a lot of coordination that's required by the judge, by all of these counsel, by court personnel. And it's just bigger and bulkier and more cumbersome. How long does it eventually take? When is it eventually set? I don't know, but I don't believe it's going to be fast or soon.

So in an appearance on Fox News last night, former Republican Speaker Newt Gingrich criticized the grand juries involved in Donald Trump's indictments and encouraged GOP lawmakers in the House to go after the funding for special counsel Jack Smith's office. If you're in a jury pool, which was 19 to one for Biden over Trump, that is not a fair jury. That's not an honest jury. That's not a jury of your peers. That is a rigged game by a really bad person. I really believe that the Republicans in the House should cut off Jack Smith's money. I think that his last day on the payroll should be September 30th. They should do whatever it takes to close down this entire anti-constitutional, ruthless breaking of the law. So, Joyce, on page 20, Willis really maps out how this criminal enterprise worked, and it goes through it very methodically and very chronologically.

On the fourth day of November, Trump does a speech declaring victory. Then Rudy Giuliani does this telephone call and leaves an 83-second voicemail message for unindicted co-conspirator to making statements concerning fraud. Act three, he has his press conference with the other attorneys. I don't know if that one was in the back alley or not. And then act four, again, more very specific details on how they were pushing this lie, the big lie. And then Act 5, Donald Trump and Mark Meadows met with the majority leader of the Michigan Senate and the Michigan Speaker of the House and other Michigan legislators in the Oval Office. The meeting was an overt act in furtherance of the

conspiracy. And then Mark Meadows trying to get a meeting and sent text messages to different people to try and get POTUS to quote, chat with them. Another act in furtherance of the conspiracy. And it goes on and on and on, and it gets worse and worse. It's kind of hard to hear people like Newt Gingrich and Ted Cruz trying to fight this when you're looking at indictment that lays out crimes. And whether it's Hunter Biden or former President Donald Trump, it's kind of important to let the law play out and see what happens here. We are looking at 100 pages of a complete assault on our democracy.

So to Chuck's point earlier, this case will be decided by a jury in a courtroom that will hear the evidence and be instructed on the law. That's where the decision will be made, not on Fox News, not anyplace else. And it's increasingly clear that Donald Trump's perfect phone call wasn't. And as a result of that phone call, Georgia prosecutors did what prosecutors and investigators do. They looked into whether or not a crime had been committed. And instead of finding something specific that was limited to that one phone call, they found this ongoing pattern of conduct reaching across the country. And what it comes down to when you read this indictment carefully, which honestly, none of us I think have done yet, we've been through it. But as you begin to look

at the allegations, it becomes very clear that Donald Trump used fake claims of fraud to try to perpetrate election fraud on the country. That's the heart of the charges here. Someday, one hopes that people in the Republican Party will take a deep breath and the fever dream will break and they will begin to see this for what this is, because continuing to defend this conduct, it's past the point where it's conscionable. Fannie Willis was clear last night. She said the statements in the indictment, they're just allegations. Donald Trump remains cloaked in a presumption of innocence, as do his co-defendants. And that's true in the court of law sense. But in the political arena, we are now well past the point where anyone can maintain that

this conduct was democratic, was fair, was legitimate. That's just no longer the case based on what we know. So, Greg Blustein, the conduct was abhorrent. I think most people, if you read Andy McCarthy yesterday, again, a very conservative, conservative former prosecutor will agree that that the conduct is abhorrent. And and yet he, as well as Jack Goldsmith, who certainly has never been a Trump defender. In fact, it's been quite opposite. He's been openly hostile to what Donald Trump has done to the presidency and the Constitution. Also is concerned about the political impact down the road, the political scar tissue of all this. So I have a question for you. Maybe you can help explain this.

Their concern and my concern also, it's not that Trump got indicted. It's that he got indicted in one of the most Democratic counties in the state of Georgia. And it does beg the question, what happens if, I was just checking this, Holmes County, Florida, Northwest Florida, went 87% for Donald Trump. What happens if, for some reason, a county prosecutor decides to prosecute a Democratic president in the future, brings the case there where 87 percent of the population voted for Donald Trump and and then holds that president or ex-president to account for activity. And again, I know people are saying, oh, but Donald Trump.

Again, I agree what Donald Trump did was abhorrent and appears illegal. At the same time, my question to you, Greg, is why did this get brought in the most, one of the most Democratic counties in the state? Did other county prosecutors have the ability to bring these charges as well, but just didn't do it? Well, the main reason, Joe, is because Fulton County covers Atlanta's capital, and so much of what happened happened in Atlanta's capital. Fannie Willis even said in an interview at the beginning of the process that when she first heard Brad Raffensperger's phone call, she wished he lived in Middle Georgia. She wished he lived in Macon, very far from where we are right now. But he didn't. He lived in North Fulton County.

And so she said she had to follow the facts. She had to follow the law. And that led her to begin the process of bringing these charges. But that wasn't the only thing that happened in Fulton County. When Donald Trump called the Speaker of the Georgia House, when he called the lieutenant governor, when he called the leader of the state senate, when he called the governor of Georgia. All of that happens in the capital of Georgia. All that happened in the seat of Fulton County, Atlanta. And so that's the reason why. But I'd also say, you know, when we hear, when we're going to see motions to move this to federal court, one of the reasons why, of course, is because Donald Trump's lawyers want a broader jury poll. They want a more favorable jury poll.

So you'll see that. But I know we have a tendency to look at it partisan, but I'd say that Republicans here in Georgia, too, it's not so easy for them to write off what happened, to dismiss it, because they lived through it. They also saw what we saw, what the rest of the world saw. They've heard the phone call that you played. They've they've they've read the reports in the AJC and seen them on MSNBC of all Donald Trump's efforts to overturn the election. And I think it hit close to home to them. So we'll see how this jury poll looks. But those are the reasons why this was brought by Fannie Willis in the seat of one of the bluest counties in Georgia. So, Greg Blustein, thank you very much for being on this morning. And former U.S. attorneys Chuck Rosenberg and Joyce Vance, as always, it's great to have your insight. We

appreciate it. A long night it was. And still ahead on Morning Joe, much more on the new indictment brought against Donald Trump on racketeering charges in the state of Georgia, how the former president's fourth criminal indictment could play out in court and what it means for his political future. We'll have live reporting from Fulton County throughout the morning and we'll be joined by a Georgia state senator who testified before the special grand jury in June of last year. Also ahead, the latest on recovery efforts in Hawaii, where devastating wildfires have now claimed at least 99 lives. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back. I won't even introduce myself by my name anymore.

I get nervous when I bump into someone I know in the grocery store who says my name. I'm worried about who's listening. I get nervous when I have to give my name for food orders. I'm always concerned of who's around me. I've lost my name, and I've lost my reputation. I've lost my sense of security. A lot of threats, wishing death upon me, telling me that I'll be in jail with my mother and saying things like, be glad it's 2020 and not 1920.

Were a lot of these threats and vile comments racist in nature? A lot of them were racist. A lot of them were just hateful. That was Ruby Freeman testifying before the House January 6th committee last year, along with her daughter, Shea Moss. They testified they lost all sense of safety after former President Trump, Rudy Giuliani and others publicly accused them of tampering with votes in Georgia following the 2020 election. Freeman is the Fulton County elections worker who became the subject of pro-Trump conspiracy theories after the 2020 election. And some of the charges in the latest indictment of Donald Trump relate to Freeman. Both Freeman and her daughter were officially cleared of any wrongdoing.

Joining us now is Democratic state Senator Elena Parent of Georgia. She testified before the Fulton County grand jury in June of last year. And thank you for coming on this morning. You talk about doing your job and dealing with these lies. And it was like a bomb got dropped on your life. Can you talk about that and the sort of stress that you were put under? Well, yes. And thank you for having me. Good morning. I did not have it as bad as Ruby Freeman or Shea Moss. And my heart really goes out to them. I obviously had put myself in the public eye a bit by running for office and being a state senator here in Georgia. But by showing up that day at the Georgia Capitol, when I was surprised, I had no forewarning

that Rudy Giuliani and Jenna Ellis and the rest of the crew were going to be showing up at this state Senate subcommittee hearing that that I was a member of. When I pushed back on the lies that the myths that they were bringing before us during that hearing instantaneously, I, too, became a target online. And I say a bomb got dropped on my life because our family ended up having to have some police protection for the next month or so. So, Jean, you can take the next question. But when you look at what has happened to some of these people's lives and also many are mentioned here, many Republicans as well as Democrats and just innocent citizens who held the line in the process. And then if you read in the indictment of the chairwoman of the Republican Party, Ronna McDaniel is mentioned because Trump and John Eastman reached out to her and they wanted her to figure out a way to get certain individuals to cast electoral votes for Donald Trump,

even though he lost. And she continues. I mean, how does she continue to protect Donald? When you're seeing and you're hearing just like these other people that this doesn't feel right. How about let's let's not even say this. This feels like a crime. Maybe you can't identify that conversation yourself as a crime. Not sure how Rana, but at the same time, you know, something is wrong. You see with your eyes what he's doing and you get calls like that and you can't stand up. Exactly. What strikes me about this indictment is, you know, you see that the two levels of this. You see in Washington and elsewhere in the country, people like Ronald McDaniel and others, Republican senators, Republican members of the House are buying into this big election lie for political reasons. Right. It's all It's all political, and they're making these

grand sweeping statements that are lies. But here you see the effect on people. You see what it did to people. You see individuals who were involved and what it looked like on the ground. And it's very different. And so my question for the senator is that because this is so focused and so granular, how is this, how do you think this will be received in Georgia, really across political lines. I mean, obviously, the state is polarized, like the American electorate is polarized. And, you know, there are people for whom Donald Trump can never do any wrong. But what do you think the impact will be broadly as the dust settles here? Well, thank you for the question. You know, I think you, in your question, hit on part of the answer, which is that our state and our country do remain completely polarized, and we just have a split in what information people have. You know,

it wouldn't have been so many decades ago that any indictment would have been viewed as disqualifying, not just by elected officials, but also by the voters, by the people. And we've devolved into this media ecosystem, especially on the right, where there's no sense of shared reality, which is a huge problem facing our country as we try to solve problems. But, you know, I do think that there are the swing voters in the suburbs and the exurbs here in Atlanta for whom this will be meaningful. They did live through it. They understand that this was a conspiracy to try to disenfranchise millions of Georgia voters by someone who had sworn to uphold, protect, and defend the Constitution. But for many others, nothing

will shake them out of their belief that Donald Trump simply did no wrong, that the election actually was fraudulent or stolen, and that this is some sort of political witch hunt. Yeah. Democratic Georgia State Senator Alaina Parent, thank you so much. Greatly appreciate you being on the show. And Jonathan Lemire, there are, again, these two realities. We've been talking about it this morning. There are these two realities. And really, there's the political reality when you see Republicans going out talking about Hunter Biden, talking about whatever else. And there are even sort of up is down, you know, for instance, the argument that, oh, the worst things get for for Hunter Biden, the worst they get for Donald Trump.

It's just the opposite. The Hunter Biden nonsense gets ginned up. The more legal trouble Donald Trump is in. But again, this doesn't matter. And it doesn't matter because we're not having a shouting contest over conspiracy theories. We're not even having a political debate. Donald Trump is now in four courts, a charged criminal defendant. And he's going to be judged not by what he puts on truth social and how many people he can lie to. He's going to be judged by a jury of his peers in, you know, four different venues. One of those venues is where he lived most of his life. One of those venues is where he worked when he was in the White House. One of those venues is where he lives now in South Florida.

And the fourth venue we got last night, Georgia. Yeah, four very different venues, but all posing real peril, legal and political to Donald Trump. And you're right, Republicans were out with their predictable attacks last night and their defenses ginning up the Hunter Biden nonsense. The 2024 candidates,

with the exception of Asa Hutchinson and Chris Christie, largely attacking DOJ, attacking this prosecutor in Georgia for their two-tiered system of justice. Vivek Ramaswamy even offering to serve as Trump's lawyer for some reason, which is an unusual tactic when a man you're trying to beat for the Republican nomination. But that's not where this is good. That's not where Donald Trump's future and fate lies. But we should also note, of course, as we talk about the cases of Ruby Freeman and Shea Moss, these election workers just trying to do their job, just trying to do their civic duty, whose lives were endangered, who were afraid to open the door of their house, those storm clouds haven't passed. And there is real concern that there could be acts of violence around one of

these trials or around the upcoming election and how hard it's going to be to get people to do their civic duty, to step into those election worker roles, to be a poll worker again because of the harassment they may receive from followers of Donald Trump who believe he won the last time in 2020 and who believe that this time around the entire American legal system is out to get him. So Donald Trump's fate very much in the line by juries of his peers. But they're certainly not the only people who are going to have very potentially very difficult months ahead because of his lies. For sure. And obviously you're following Jonathan Lemire, what he tweets out or truths out on his truth social.

I know he's definitely already attacked Fannie Willis calling her names. More to come, I guess. But in these four cases, also the defamation suit and some other legal problems that he has in each one, judges will make decisions as to whether or not bail should be revoked or whether or not he should be sanctioned in some way or something else if he continues to behave this way. Like everybody who is an illegal expert who has been on the show so far in the first 47 minutes of this show said this isn't about Ted Cruz or Newt Gingrich or what they say or what they say about Hunter.

This is going to be dealt with in the courts and the courts are going to deal with him accordingly in four separate cases. Good luck. Coming up, the former lieutenant governor of Georgia had a message for the Republican Party after testifying yesterday. We'll play for you those comments. Meanwhile, Donald Trump and his campaign went back to their playbook right after the indictment came down. We'll explain more on that straight ahead on Morning Joe. 52 past the hour. Some other stories we're following this morning. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin was in Annapolis, Maryland yesterday, where he spoke at the ceremony marking the departure of the top ranked officer in the Navy. The Navy is now the third U.S. military branch without a Senate confirmed leader. Secretary Austin offered his strongest words yet regarding the blockage of military promotions by Republican Senator Tommy Tuberville. Take a look. I want to take a moment to mark a painful milestone. As you know, more than 300 nominations for our outstanding general

and flag officers are now being held up in the United States Senate. That includes our top uniformed leaders and our next chief of naval operations. Because of this blanket hold starting today, for the first time in the history of the Department of Defense, three of our military services are operating without Senate-confirmed leaders. This is unprecedented. It is unnecessary. And it is unsafe. And this sweeping hold is undermining America's military readiness.

It's hindering our ability to retain our very best officers. And it is upending the lives of far too many American military families. Our troops deserve better. Our military families deserve better. And our allies and partners deserve better. And our national security deserves better. You know, Caddy, I'm often dismissive when people talk about how dysfunctional American politics are. I said we've been through it before. We'll go through it again.

But it is hard not to look at a system that allows one one senator to to stop for the first time in American history, to stop the United States Marines, the Army and the Navy from having a leader. Again, for the Marines, it's 150 years since they haven't had a commandant in charge. And so now this is infecting the readiness of three of our four main branches of government. And it's it's just it's first of all, it's devastating for readiness. Also, though, it must be a bad, bad look for the United States of America among its allies. Yeah, I mean, look at Lord Lloyd Austin is a pretty low key secretary of defense. And for him to come out and say it is just not acceptable to have the three branches of the armed services without a chief officer for them is. And the way that he put it, I thought was really interesting that this is not safe. It's not safe for the United States and that it's not fair.

It's not fair to the military members, the troops themselves, and it's not fair to their families. And, of course, the irony all of this is we're kind of in an Alice in Wonderland world, isn't it? The Republican Party that is meant to be the strong supporters of the U.S. military and often campaigns on being strong supporters of the military. Indeed, there are people running for president on the Republican side at the moment who are campaigning on how Joe Biden has undermined the U.S. military and has proposed cuts to the U.S. military. And yet we have at the moment one Republican senator who's actually having a real impact, a material impact on the lives and actions of those who are serving in the U.S. Well, and, Jean Robinson, you look at what's happened across NATO, stronger than ever. It's extraordinary. You look what's happening in Asia.

We have a stronger presence's happening in Asia. We have a stronger presence than ever in Asia. But you look at what Tommy Tuberville is doing, how he's letting politics get in the way of readiness. And this is the same guy that went on a Fox News show and according the headlines said that he was spouting Putin's talking points. I don't know if you'd say that or if you'd say that he was providing aid and comfort to points. I don't know if you'd say that or if you'd say that he was providing aid and comfort to the enemy. But there is no doubt what he was saying was was music to Vladimir Putin's ears, saying that Ukraine could never win and we need to stop funding Ukraine. At the same time, he's he's damaging U.S. and U.S. military readiness in a way that even his own Republicans

in the Senate colleagues and members of Alabama, voting members of Alabama understand as well. This is this is really destructive. It is destructive. And it's amazing to me that those Republican colleagues in the Senate haven't pulled him aside and said, knock it off, stop this now, or there will be consequences. Mitch McConnell ought to assign him a new office that's in a basement closet until he relents on this ridiculous stunt.