Morning Joe - Morning Joe 8/18/22

Episode Date: August 18, 2022

Pence calls on Republicans to stop attacking the FBI over Mar-a-Lago search

the Republican Party is the party of law and order. Our party stands with the men and women who serve on the thin blue line at the federal and state and local level. And these attacks on the FBI must stop. Calls to defund the FBI are just as wrong as calls to defund the police. I also want to remind my fellow Republicans, we can hold the attorney general accountable for the decision that he made without attacking rank and file law enforcement personnel at the FBI. former vice president mike pence calling on fellow republicans to stop attacking the fbi over the search of mar-a-lago and it's not just the fbi will explain how violent rhetoric from

the gop also put irs agents in danger meanwhile a court hearing is scheduled for today on the request to unseal the affidavit used to search Donald Trump's Mar-a-Lago home. We'll have new reporting on where that investigation stands, plus new polling in the fight to control the Senate from a tight race in Ohio to the Democrat in Wisconsin expanding his lead over Republican Ron Johnson. We'll have the latest numbers for you this morning. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Thursday, August 18th. So, Joe, we're looking ahead to a big hearing today and a lot of political waves beginning to sort of form out of this. They are. I'm curious, what do you think of Mike Pence's speech?

It feels it feels like he's looking for a lane. I believe his speech, Willie, if I'm not correct, was in New Hampshire, was it not? It was. Yes, it was. That would be that would be kind of the I think that the real story there is what's he doing there? And there's obviously maybe a long game being played here. I don't want to get ahead of anything. Well, but just taking it on the surface, that and family members talking, repeating the hateful speech from Republican legislators calling Republican congressmen and women calling the FBI the Gestapo. And it's having a real impact. And you're hearing more and more on these calls for civil war. You're hearing it muttered under the breath of people who voted for Bob Dole and John McCain. The radicalization

is coming from the top down and it continues to come from the top down. And a great example of this, Willie, is like we're talking about the FBI and how Republicans now want to defund the police, according to, you know, a lot of Congress, Republican members of Congress, leaders talking about the IRS getting AR-15s and going door to door and knocking on doors. It's a complete lie. It was completely fabricated. I don't know who sent it out on their blast fax machine and sent it out. But it came out the day that Republicans started to back off on on the search because the Trump people said, hey, listen, this could be really bad. So we may want to back off of this narrative immediately. This IRS, these stories of IRS agents carrying around AR-15s, knocking on small business people's door. Again, from the most powerful Republicans in the Senate and the House of Representatives started making its way around.

And so, of course, threats now going up. It's a lie. It's another conspiracy theory. But this party, my God, it's and by the way, I'm hearing it from I can't I wish I could. No, well, I have used the word before here. I'm hearing it from idiots who I've known my entire life. So, you know, yeah. Well, what about the IRS coming to small business owners doors where they are 15s. And how do you respond to that lie? It's just like I've been saying since for two years now, people read these lies on Chinese

conspiracy websites, Chinese religious cults, conspiracy websites. They read them at other websites. A member of Congress says something about it. And they run with a lie. And in this case, it's a it's a lie that inspires even more violence against workers for the United States government. It's it's un-American. It's unpatriotic. And it's just it's if you're a Christian and I find it hard to believe that you'd be doing all of this stuff if you were. But if you're a Christian, it's un-Christlike to be going around lying and spreading violent rhetoric against people who are working for the United States government. Yeah, it's a wild conspiracy theory. People are going to think you're making this up,

we're going to dig into it later. It's out there and it's as you say, it's been elevated to prominent United States senators talking about eighty seven thousand IRS agents who will be added because of the Inflation Reduction Act and some of them, according to the conspiracy theory, with weapons threatening small business owners. So obviously we know what the climate is right now. We know that people are prone to violence. They're open to it. See January 6th. And to put that out is beyond irresponsible. And as for Mike Pence, Joe, it is such a statement and such a commentary and such an indictment of the state of the Republican Party that it's even noteworthy that the former vice president of the United States has to come out and say, hey, leadership of the Republican

Party, let's stop attacking the FBI and threatening them. We just had a guy shoot up the Cincinnati field office with a nail gun and had an AR-15. Let's stop doing that. Now, he said, look, sure, we should question the Justice Department. So he's not completely clean on this because he doesn't like the raid. But he's at least having to go out and say, let's stop attacking the FBI. That's a bad idea. And Mika, they believe that that is something that

has to be said, which is, as I said, an indictment of the party right now. It really is. With us, we have the host of way too early and White House bureau chief at Politico, Jonathan Lemire, and former aide to the George W. Bush White House and State Department's Elise Jordan. She is an MSNBC political analyst. We've got a lot to get to today, including a hearing on whether to unseal the search warrant affidavit from Mar-a-Lago. That hearing is set for 1 p.m. today. It comes 10 days after the search of Donald Trump's home. Two law enforcement officials tell NBC News the FBI is still sifting through the seized documents, separating those determined to be covered by attorney-client privilege from those that are relevant to the

case. Let's bring in NBC News correspondent covering national security and intelligence, Ken Delaney. And Ken, what are the chances there will be a decision to unseal it? It seems to be a highly confidential case in terms of national security from what we're hearing so far. Good morning, Mika. Yeah, from everything we can tell, there's very little chance that this document is going to be unsealed. And even if by some remote possibility the judge decides to unseal a portion of it today, the Justice Department would then ask to black out portions that they think are sensitive. And so there will be a process there. They'll say, Judge, we have these redacted, these proposed redactions. So we won't see anything today. I think the best we can hope is that we may learn some new things when we listen to the DOJ prosecutors stand up in court

and reemphasize to the judge, they already did it in writing, but say it orally today, why they want to protect this document because they say that it would, release of it would compromise an ongoing criminal investigation, a grand jury investigation involving multiple witnesses and they said investigative techniques. So I think what we're hoping to learn is new insights into how big this investigation is and where it's going, Mika. Jonathan Lemire, I know you have a question for Ken, but I've got a quick one for you. There was talk yesterday that Donald Trump was thinking about releasing security footage of the search. And then some people close to him said, I don't I don't know that that's a good idea, boss. There are a lot of boxes there that might look really bad for you. And so now maybe they're

pulling back. What can you tell us about that and that mysterious voice that Donald Trump? Yeah, it sounds like Trump's hired from the old neighborhood there to help him out down at Mar-a-Lago. Yes, that is true. There were some people, Trump himself and some in his orbit, did suggest they want to put out the video. There's a lot of cameras up at Mar-a-Lago, as you might expect, thinking that it would display the FBI abusing their power and traipsing all over the carefully manicured lawns and the croquet set. And others close to him said, no, that's a bad idea because it will also reveal just how many boxes of stuff are coming out. And this may undermine your argument as to how this would look. So they have opted against that, at least for now, although you never know. Keep an eye on

your truth social accounts. Ken Delaney and wanted to ask you, though, we obviously will learn more about the contours of the investigation if the affidavit is unsealed at one o'clock. But everything we know about Attorney General Garland and his Justice Department is that he moves very methodically, he moves very carefully. There's been some reporting this week that he took weeks to sign off on whether to go ahead with this search. So with knowing that, with that as the backdrop, do we have any sense, people that you've talked to, just the timeline we might be operating here as to when a decision could be made as to whether an indictment may come for the former president. We really don't, Jonathan, because there's a couple of mysteries here.

And one is, when does the clock start where the Justice Department decides it's inappropriate to take action before an election? And does that apply in this case since Donald Trump is not on the ballot? You know, I've talked to DOJ officials about this. They've said it's a gray area. It's really not clear. And it's sort of a stay tuned situation. But you're absolutely right. I confirm the reporting that Garland took. He carefully considered this decision and took as many as a couple of weeks to have high level meetings with senior DOJ officials and with FBI Director Christopher Wray. And, you know, some people have portrayed this as dawdling or indecisive. Most people I talk to about this,

though, say this was an incredibly momentous decision and it's perfectly normal that Garland considered this for some time. And it also suggests that this, again, I have said this before, this is not really just about the urgency of getting back classified documents. It's about more than that, clearly. They've said as much in their affidavit now. There's an ongoing criminal investigation. And what we're looking at here, again, is Donald Trump didn't pack these boxes himself. He didn't bring these documents to Mar-a-Lago by himself. So there may well be other people who have criminal exposure, and that will take some time to unfold.

You know, we may see the Justice Department doing the classic thing that they do, which is going after the lower level people and trying to flip them against higher level people. And then just one thing, Jonathan, on your point about the surveillance camera, the thing that the thing about that that's actually rather troubling is the FBI asked the Trump folks to turn those off because they wanted to. They didn't want the faces of their agents to be on camera. And from what I understand, the Trump folks to turn those off because they wanted to. They didn't want the faces of their agents to be on camera. And from what I understand, the Trump people declined to do that and continued to film those FBI agents. Yeah. So those tapes are definitely out there right now. While that piece of the Justice Department investigation is going on,

there's a new development in DOJ's separate probe into the January 6th attack on the Capitol. The New York Times is reporting federal prosecutors issued a grand jury subpoena to the National Archives for all the White House documents it gave to the January 6th Select Committee. Meanwhile, in that New Hampshire speech, former Vice President Mike Pence said he would consider speaking with the House Select Committee investigating the attack on the Capitol if he were asked.

If there was an invitation to participate, I would consider it to be unprecedented in history for a vice president to be summoned to testify on Capitol Hill. But as I said, I don't want to prejudge. If there's ever any formal invitation rendered to us, we'd give it due consideration. So at least there are a lot of ifs in there. But the headline was, if he were asked, he would give it consideration. We don't know if he'd do it under oath, if he would just go have a conversation. But obviously, it goes without saying, he's a central figure to this investigation. It would be hugely significant if he did sit for an interview.

Well, it was an interesting move from Pence. And now it's the committee's move and it's in their court. Because basically, he's signaling signaling I'm open to it. I would like to. He teased it. He brought it up. And so next month, who seems likely to be a featured speaker at the next episode of the January 6th commission? Mike Pence. It sounds like he is ready and he wants to. And he's using this moment to define himself against Trump and the lawlessness of January 6th. Well, speaking of Rudy Giuliani testified yesterday before a grand jury in Georgia

that is looking into efforts by former President Trump and others to overturn the 2020 election. He spent six hours at the courthouse in Atlanta, but it is not clear what questions he answered. The former personal attorney for Donald Trump told a far right news outlet earlier this week that he would likely invoke attorney client privilege if asked about the former president. Giuliani's testimony comes days after he was told he was a target in the criminal investigation of election interference. So, Ken, I'm curious if you've heard any reporting from George, if you can help us out here. If you're pleading the fifth, that usually doesn't take six hours. At the same time, if Giuliani is now a target of a criminal probe, I guess it's just a lawyer in me. I don't really know how it would serve him legally to go in there and blabber for six hours.

I think most attorneys would tell him plead the fifth and we'll talk. We'll figure out what our defense is when they bring the charges. What can you tell us? Clearly, your legal training is at the forefront of your brain still, Joe, because that's absolutely what every practicing lawyer tells me. And we don't have reporting on what happened in that room, but it's very possible that they just required him to answer every single question that they had. So it may be that he pleaded the fifth 600 times over six hours. They've done that with other witnesses, as have federal grand juries. We just don't know.

But it's really hard to believe he answered any substantive questions, given his enormous legal exposure that we can all see in front of our face and given that he's been told that he is a target of this investigation, Joe. So what what what insights, Jonathan LeMire, can you give us about Rudy Giuliani in this Georgia case and his his responsibility, his part in the big lie? I know he was pushing the big lie from the very beginning after the election. And there were a lot of Trump attorneys inside the White House trying to keep keep him away from Donald Trump. So, so much of this, so much of this and other most Trump insiders will say so much of this began with Rudy Giuliani telling Donald Trump, being the only person who would tell Donald Trump close to him what he wanted to hear. So what can you tell us about his possible exposure? Yeah, Giuliani excluded from the Trump administration in the early days, made it clear

to the then president he was always happy to do the dirty work. He, of course, played the role of a smoke machine during the Mueller investigation and then, of course, traveled to Ukraine and basically got Donald Trump impeached for his efforts there to try to extort President Zelensky and his government to get damaging information about Joe Biden and his family. And then that, of course, led to Trump's first impeachment. And then after, you know, during the election, Giuliani was a surrogate. And then, of course, in his role as personal attorney was one of those, along with Sidney Powell, Michael Flynn and a few others who really pushed these conspiracy theories that in those days after the election, the West Wing hollowed out, people starting to look for new jobs. There was a COVID outbreak. Giuliani and his ilk had basically free reign of the Oval Office and were pumping these conspiracy theories into Trump, who was more than happy to hear them.

And Giuliani became the point person publicly. We all remember that news conference of the RNC when the hair dye came down his face. And he would go to state legislatures and courthouses across the country and outside talk about how this election was stolen, but then inside not exactly testify the same. But George is interesting here because he did talk to state legislatures there, legislators and prosecutors that he lied, that he presented false evidence here. And he has real exposure. There is a real sense that charges could be coming. He's named a target at any time. And as a postscript, the Associated Press found him on his return to New York last night being wheeled through an airport in a wheelchair. And he simply said that he he satisfied the obligation

to be there from prosecutors, but did not go into details any further. He would not say if he took the fifth or how many times he took the fifth. Joe, so we don't know what Rudy Giuliani said, but we know he was in there for six hours, which is a long time. And the other point to make here is that we know from the last year and a half or so or two years that Rudy Giuliani will be brash. He'll make big claims in front of a microphone with the hair dye dripping down his face, all of those events we've seen. But when the screws are put to him, when he goes into a federal court in Pennsylvania, for example, and the federal judge confronts him about what evidence he has, he goes, well, actually, I don't have any evidence. And this isn't a fraud case after all. I know I said all

those things outside the court. So point being, he makes these big defenses and these big claims on behalf of Donald Trump. But when it's his rear end on the line in front of a judge, he tends to have a bit of a different tone and to change his story. Well, then that's what will be fascinating about what happened during these six hours. Again, I couldn't imagine any attorney suggesting to Rudy Giuliani that he testified for six hours in front of a grand jury who's considering criminal charges against him. I suspect Ken's probably right that maybe they just walking through question after question, took breaks. Remember, there's a lot of waiting. And maybe they just dragged it out a little bit. But you were so right. The attorney in Rudy Giuliani, there is still one in there. The attorney in Rudy Giuliani was always careful enough outside of federal courthouses after launching wild conspiracy theories about widespread voter fraud to go in. And when he understood that that he actually could be held in contempt of court or

could be sanctioned, possibly disbarred, he actually usually left that outside during the press conferences and say, no, we are under we're not alleging any instances of widespread voter fraud. In this case, Mika, I've got to say Giuliani and this is this is just based on actually I don't base it on what I heard from the Trump people back in 2016 from Trump and the Trump people themselves when he was considered as the secretary of state. They were even saying back, God, what's that six years ago that Rudy Giuliani had lost a few steps, that he was not the intellectual power that he had once been, that he was addled at times. And I only say this to say he finds himself in an especially precarious legal position right now.

And I would suspect I would suspect that the last thing again, let me circle back and say it one more time. His lawyers that want him doing is rambling on incoherently for six hours. Chances are good it would do him no favors if there is, in fact, a criminal trial that's coming up. We shall see what happens. And then there's this former Trump organization, CFO Alan Weisselberg, is expected to plead guilty today to 15 counts of fraud and tax evasion. Weisselberg was previously charged with participating in a years long scheme to help top officials in the Trump organization avoid paying taxes. People with knowledge of the matter tell The New York Times as part of his plea deal, Weisselberg could be

called as a witness in the company's trial this October and would have to testify about his role in the scheme. He's not expected to implicate the former president or his family if he takes the stand. NBC News also had this reporting earlier this week. Weisselberg is expected to receive a five month jail term, but with credit for good behavior, he will likely only serve part of that. So can walk us through this. That seems to be a ton of questions to be threading the needle a bit. I committed all of these these felonies. I'll plead to him. But I won't talk about the family. And I will plead against I'll testify against the Trump organization, but not will not testify against Donald Trump personally. Seems like he's threading a needle there. What can you tell us?

Yeah, and perhaps successfully for him. I mean, I mean, five months, you know, even less he could do standing on his head, as the old saying goes. And he seems to have escaped this thing without giving prosecutors what they wanted, which is the testimony against Donald Trump himself. But let me ask you this question, though. Like, why would prosecutors, if they had him dead to center on all of these counts, on 15 counts, why would they give him five months? Is it possible that he actually gave them some information that would help them in their prosecution of Donald Trump privately, but said, I'm not going to testify against him openly? And I know this speculation,

but I just can't figure out how this guy could have skated like this unless he had. I mean, unless he had turned on Trump in some way and given him information, said, I'll give you this information privately. I'll tell you where to go. I'm just not going to testify against him or his family in court. That's an interesting theory. I mean, I don't think we can rule it out. But my colleague, Tom Winter, who's an expert on this case and has done a lot of reporting, is really under the impression that he's not giving them what they need on Trump. And I think one of the reasons perhaps for the

sort of paltry sentence is that these counts, this case that the prosecution has brought against Weisselberg has been roundly criticized by sort of tax professionals and lawyers who practices in this area. It's kind of the kind of thing that a lot of companies do. And it's rarely prosecuted this, you know, hiding income through different kinds of payments, you know, to avoid paying taxes on certain compensation. It's sort of a it's a thing where they they brought this case because they were really interested in getting Weisselberg's cooperation. But again, stepping back, I don't we should also remember it's not insignificant if the Trump organization is convicted of a crime that could have serious repercussions for its ability to borrow money. Could really, you know, could really put a crimp in some of President Trump and his family's real estate dealings and business dealings.

But again, not the prize that prosecutors were looking for. All right. NBC News correspondent covering national security and intelligence, Ken Delaney. And thank you very much. And still ahead on Morning Joe, Donald Trump is reportedly piling up campaign cash after bombarding his supporters with emails for donations following the FBI search of his Mar-a-Lago home. did that letter start? Hi, everybody. I removed top secret classified information regarding national security from the White House. Please send five dollars. Yikes. We'll discuss what he intends on doing with that money. Talk about this is taking grifting to a new level. Meanwhile, more on what we were discussing at the top of the show. Top members of the Republican Party warning Americans the IRS is coming for them with guns. Plus, Republican nominee for Pennsylvania's Senate seat, Dr. Oz, is asked how many houses he owns. His response leads to another memorable online video from his Democratic opponent. We'll show it to you ahead on Morning Joe.

We'll be right back. And there's Mika's house. Oh, Dr. Oz. How many houses do you own? Well, I, legitimately, I own two houses. Survey said! Rich people think different. Steve Harvey, ladies and gentlemen, that's quite a real estate portfolio. That's an online ad from the John Fetterman campaign playing off the response by his Republican opponent for the Senate in Pennsylvania, Dr. Oz, to the question on the campaign trail. How many houses do you own?

The question did come from a Democratic campaign operative. As you heard, Oz said he, quote, legitimately owns two homes. The other ones I rent. But the Daily Beast reports public record show he does own at least 10 properties. They include mansions in New Jersey and Florida, a 7000 square foot country house in Pennsylvania, a couple of condos in Manhattan. And yes, those three properties in Turkey, Joe. Yeah. Why? Things aren't going great. He apologized for a crudite

dust up in a grocery store, Mika. Now, let me tell you, when you were apologizing for using the word crudite in a campaign, I mean, first of all, I would not use the word ever crudite in a campaign. You wouldn't know what that is. Because I don't know what it is. I was like, crudite? Is that a sport?

So, but yeah. Okay, so the video. He's just kind of bouncing around. Let me explain. Harvey, Family Feud, 10 Houses. That was from the Fetterman campaign. The video of Dr. Oz shopping for crudite at, quote, Wegener's is turning out French.

I'm sorry, turning out to be very profitable for his Democratic opponent, John Fetterman. Here's that video made back in April that has just gone absolutely viral. I thought it was some grocery shopping. I'm at Wagner's, and my wife wants some vegetables for crudite, right? So here's a broccoli. That's two bucks, about a ton of broccoli there. Here's some asparagus. That's $4.

Yep. Carrots. That's four more dollars. That's $10 of vegetables there. And then we need some guacamole that's four dollars more and she loves salsa yeah salsa there six dollars must be a shortage of salsa guys that's twenty dollars for crouton this doesn't include the tequila i mean it's outrageous and we got joe biden to thank for this oh You have Joe. OK, so people blame Joe Biden for everything.

You're now blaming Joe Biden for your crudité issue. Oz apparently meant for the video to highlight high prices at the grocery store. But the message that was lost on Oz appears to mix up the names of grocery chains, Redner's and Wegmans, saying that he is shopping at, quote, Wegner's. And he uses the term crudité for what many simply call vegetables on a tray. Oh, that's what, a veggie tray. Yeah, I've had a veggie tray before.

Throw a bunch of vegetables on a tray. No, you can get those things for like $7.99. You just go in, you get it. Where's your veggie tray? Fetterman jumped on the fundraising opportunity and the chance to continue his claim that put A1 on the carrots and like we're off to the races. Let me tell you, folks in Pennsylvania aren't talking about crudite at all. It is pretty ridiculous. So Fetterman released limited edition stickers

for his campaign and continued making jokes on Twitter about the gaffe. Time Charlotte Alter reported Fetterman raised more than $500,000 in the last couple of days, including $65,000 of the Wagner sticker alone. Oz responded yesterday, appearing on Newsmax to defend himself and to explain his flubbing of the grocery store's name. But it does get to the factor, is Dr. Oz relatable to the everyday, hardworking American there in Pennsylvania? Listen, I rolled my sleeves up my whole life. That's what my life's been about. You know, when I joke about a crudité, which is a way of speaking about how ridiculous it is that you can't even put vegetables on a plate, in the middle of a campaign, we'll do whatever we need to do to make sure the people of Pennsylvania respect what we're about and that we're going to work as hard as we can to fix their problems. It's what I've done my whole life. It's what I'll continue to do.

I challenge my opponent. What have you done rolling your sleeves up in your own life to make life better for the people of Pennsylvania? And I mean to fixate on it, but just for those watching in Pennsylvania, you know how particular many people are about their groceries. What happened with Wegmans and Wegners? Can you explain that to them? Yeah, I was exhausted.

When you're campaigning 18 hours a day, you've, listen, I've gotten my kids' names wrong as well. I don't think that's a measure of someone's ability to lead the Commonwealth. I don't know that that actually helps on Main Street in Scranton, Elise, when you say, yeah, I can't remember my kids' names. I just hope he at least remembered some ranch dip with all those vegetables that he claimed to buy at inflated prices. It's just pitiful. You can tell he hasn't been in a grocery store in years and and frankly, probably has been on some wacky diet to boot.

Not even limiting vegetable intake. It wouldn't surprise me. So, wow. Just, you know, God bless whatever Republican campaign consultant is managing this one, because it's really going to be an interesting ride. All of them, really. I mean, I mean, now I guess we can look forward to stickers being on crudité sections of high end grocery stores across America. Thanks, Joe Biden. But like, why did his folks on his campaign say, dude, that's really it's too much. John Jonathan Lemire was just telling me when he goes out to prepare his charcuterie board for his campaign and say, dude, that's not... Yeah, Willie, it's too much. Jonathan Lemire was just telling me when he goes out to prepare his charcuterie board for a Wednesday night of watching the Red Sox. Celebrate the big lie. The prosciutto is getting very expensive.

And you've been blaming Joe Biden for that as well, haven't you? But truthfully, it's a painful campaign to watch. It is. I mean, first of all, whoever's filming that didn't say, hey, sir, why don't we stop to say vegetable? Let's say let's take this from the top. OK, we got all the time we need. But the fact that the houses he spent the summer abroad, John Fetterman, it's just back on the campaign trail. And the contrast of John Fetterman, a guy in a hoodie sweatshirt out shaking. And Dr. Oz in a grocery store talking about crudité is stark. Yeah. Barada prizes soaring. Thanks, Joe Biden. No, it is. It is certainly this is a how you let that campaign video hit the air when he gets the name of the

grocery store wrong. He's awkwardly holding all the vegetables in his hands as opposed to using some sort of basket. And then, of course, using words that most Pennsylvanians or Americans probably don't often use. Perhaps that's they've said that's the term Turkey is popular is there. But more than anything else, this is something John Fetterman, who suffered a stroke a few months ago, has basically been invisible on the campaign trail for months. He's just started in recent days coming back out again. And his poll numbers are only soaring because the more people see of Dr. Oz, it seems as if they less they like him. And this is yet another example of a Donald Trump endorsement of of Oz, where he could have gone for a far more mainstream candidate, David McCormick, and probably who would probably have a much better chance to win.

And this like Herschel Walker in Georgia, perhaps J.D. Vance in Ohio. These are seats that Republicans could have won, maybe even won easily this November. And their loyalty to Trump may cost them. Okay, coming up, first it was defund the FBI. Now it's watch out for the IRS. Some Republicans are pushing dangerous rhetoric about the tax agency. We're going to get into this latest conspiracy theory from the far right. They're actually saying, they're actually saying members of Congress that the IRS is coming to your house with AR-15s.

It's just abominable. Plus, the latest on a major shakeup at the CDC. The health agency says it's about to undergo a reset. That is straight ahead on Morning Joe. beautiful shot of new york city at 42 past the hour on this hot summer morning tj's dialing them up this morning yeah there's that from poll workers to capitol police officers to fbi agents the modern day republican party has seemingly left no stone unturned in recent years when it comes to unleashing violent rhetoric against public servants. And now there's a new target of the party's attacks, IRS employees. In recent weeks, a baseless conspiracy theory propagated by top GOP leaders has spread to all levels of the

Republican Party. And it's a lie. Responding to the new funding for the IRS and the recently passed Inflation Reduction Act, Republicans have united around a lie that 87,000 armed IRS agents will soon come breaking down the doors of middle class Americans. In reality, most of the new funding will be put towards hiring desk workers to enforce tax laws against the highest paying Americans, the richest Americans. But that hasn't stopped key Republican voices from spreading lies about a federalized militia. Are they going to have a strike force that goes in with AK-15s already loaded, ready to shoot some small business person in Iowa? Is the IRS gearing up for war in our country? Is

Nancy Pelosi trying to start a nuclear war in Asia? Is there an effort by the national security state to stoke violence in a civil war here at home? Those IRS agents are designed to come after you. They're not designed to come after the billionaires and the big corporations. They're designed to come after small businesses and working families. They're going to go after the mom and pop. They're going to go after the small business person, the independent contractor, the Uber driver. And they are going to focus on basically parts of the

country that don't support what the regime is trying to do. Let's bring in NBC News reporter Ben Collins. He's been tracking the spread of this far right conspiracy theory on the Internet. He's with us now. So one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you today about this is I had, which I talked about on the show yesterday, two really disturbing discussions with people I've known. One family member I've known my entire life talking about civil war and another, a conservative thought leader in Washington, D.C., who's always been responsible, always been a small C conservative. We've agreed on most things. And he also was talking about civil war, talking about how the United States government was not sacrosanct and could be replaced. Civil war. In both of the conversations,

one of their key talking points was that eighty seven thousand IRS agents are going to be armed with AR-15s and they're going to be coming to kick down their doors. I knew it was a spectacular lie, a spectacular conspiracy theory, but I must say most of these conspiracy theories and lies that put federal employees at risk are spread by backbenchers. This lie is being spread by the top Republican in the House, some of the top Republicans in the Senate. And Charles Grassley asking, are they coming with loaded AR-15s? Mitch McConnell, what are you going to do about this, Mitch? Are they coming with loaded AR-15s to mom and pop houses? I think Marco Rubio's writing about it, Kevin McCarthy. And all this is doing, I don't have to explain it to you and forgive the rant I'm trying to explain to my viewers why we're having this discussion right now.

It's just putting more people's lives at risk because of this conspiracy theory. Where the hell did this conspiracy theory start? It started, obviously, in the dredges of the Internet. But the differences between now and several years ago, all the GOP lawmakers are in on this. They're clearly fine with it. So let's take, for example, Jade Helm in 2015. Jade Helm is this conspiracy theory that Texas is about to be taken over by Barack Obama, who wanted to take over the government permanently. He wanted to run for a third term or something. So he was getting all of these military contractors

together to quietly take over Texas. And in 2015, Ted Cruz got a lot of phone calls about this because it was on Infowars all the time. It was a huge thing in malicious circles. It was finally happening. They were finally coming to take your guns. But Ted Cruz went and said, I called the Pentagon. There's really nothing going on here, guys. Don't worry about it. The difference is now Ted Cruz is trying to amp this up. Ted Cruz is trying to say the IRS is coming after you specifically. The IRS is part of a larger mob. And that's the difference now is those Infowars ideas that used to exist exclusively on the extreme far right, the stuff on the end caps at the supermarket that wasn't brought up in regular politics.

That is the GOP now. That's a huge part of what they do. They ramp up the fear. They try to break down the walls between two different ideas. For example, the idea of the FBI is searching Mar know, is searching Mar-a-Lago with the idea there and come after you with FBI agents. Those two things coalesced into one big idea last week. And it's because it suits their narrative that they're coming. If they're coming after Donald Trump, they're eventually going to come after you. You know, Ben, as you

know, because you've looked into this, there is a division of the IRS that carries weapons and it has since 1919 for 100 years. So I think that's where they're digging deep to try to find some evidence. But that's not a new thing. And it was happening under Donald Trump as well a couple of years ago. I guess the question is what this means to the base, the people who are hearing the voices of Chuck Grassley and Ted Cruz and other members of Congress, whose words they follow and listen to very closely when the stakes are raised to, as they have been with the FBI search of Mar-a-Lago. We are now at war with the government. And you now have members of Congress saying, in fact, the government is coming to your door, armed, ready for war.

Be ready. What do people online hear when they hear those comments? Yeah, they hear war. And these are in civilian spaces, by the way. This is on TikTok. Militias have taken to TikTok recently specifically to recruit based on this thing. It's people holding up their guns and saying, you know, come and take it basically to the 87,000 IRS agents. It is very viral and it's very visual the way that they talk about

people coming to their homes. It's also on LinkedIn, which sounds ridiculous. But in relatively professional settings where this sort of stuff was not allowed previously, it's taking over that part of the party. A large part of the GOP right now is absolutely convinced that there is some sort of fascist takeover of the United States. And they're getting convinced of this because, in a lot of ways, their basic ideas are losing, and they're resorting to threats and intimidation. And that is an enormous problem for them. And by the way, when you talk about the gun part of this,

the thing that they always bring around, there are, like you said, there are parts of the IRS that are supposed to be part of the job description literally online is that people should be comfortable holding a gun. And it says it on that job description. That's just one of several kinds of jobs. Just like, you know, if you're in the NBA,

a coach does a very different thing than a point guard. In this case, some people do have to hold guns at the IRS. And they found that one job description and said, that's what's going to happen with all these 87,000 people that come to your home. So it's the old Russian disinformation tactic of, you know, find that grain of truth. You don't need to be a Russian disinformation agent to use that tactic anymore. Ben, you've talked a couple of times throughout this segment about InfoWars and Alex Jones, you could say, is maybe the chief disinformation officer of all the conspiracy theories in this country, because either if it doesn't start with him, he amplifies it. Can you give us an update on what's happening with the Sandy Hook parents and their case against Alex Jones in Connecticut?

Yeah. Yesterday there was there was a hearing to see if those that leaked phone of Alex Jones's from a couple of weeks ago. I remember that. If that broke some sort of law the fact that um his lawyers accidentally leaked that to another team of lawyers uh because it had medical information of the people in the connecticut case a second case that is upcoming here um including psychiatric records of the sandy hook parents which is pretty grim that's that sort of thing should not be let out into the public and that's why they are facing sanctions in Connecticut for this. The actual hearing is upcoming. This could be another much more, I would say, onerous trial for Alex Jones, because this is in the backyard of

the Sandy Hook parents. But I just want to caution you guys that he has made more money than ever in the last few weeks. He's had record sales selling those doomsday and prepper kits. And it's in part because he was able to fundraise off of that lawsuit in Texas. It's also in part because he's able to fundraise off of the mainstreaming of this idea that the government's going to take your stuff and the apocalypse is coming. It is a very regular thought right now in the GOP that Alex Jones planted a seed for in the last two decades. And obviously, Joe, the irony here, whatever it is, is that they're going

to make it so that IRS agents will need to protect themselves because they're ginning up all this hatred. They're the ones creating the danger. Well, they already have. I mean, if you're an IRS agent, you're far less safe today than you were a couple of days ago when Chuck Grassley went on Fox & Friends and suggested that IRS agents were going to come with AR-15s loaded to people's front door in Iowa. I mean, it's just that it's so extraordinarily reckless. The fact that Kevin McCarthy, the head of the Republican Party in the House, is saying the same thing, spreading these conspiracy

theories. This is, you know, this sort of talk is what led to Oklahoma City. It's what led to Timothy McVeigh. And after it happens, it's too late to pull back and say, oh, let's be responsible after it happens. And this is this is again, this is what we were warning about the inflammatory rhetoric about the search, the legal search. We kept warning and sure enough, a guy tries to break in to an FBI office, field office in Ohio, break through the glass with a nail gun, shatter the glass and then go in

and slaughter FBI agents with his AR-15. It's too late, Republicans. After the next Oklahoma City happens. And that's why I had said Chuck, I mean, somebody I did. Maybe maybe Mitch can't say something to Chuck Grassley about this, but somebody in the Republican Party needs to pull back on this, just like Mike Pence pulled back on the radical, reckless talk regarding FBI agents and defunding the FBI and calling them the Gestapo. And again, I think and I've just got to I've just got to say this, Ben. This doesn't happen just online, contained online with some crackpots. I've got mainstream Americans, two in the same day, talking about civil war and revolution and overthrowing the U.S. government because

IRS agents are coming to their house with AR-15s. I mean, this is a stakes. And this is the Republic. By the way, nobody else is spreading this. The Republican Party is spreading this right now. They're putting not only federal employees at risk, but you look at the pictures of Oklahoma City and see who else died in that blast. That's what's at stake here. By the way, I was in Congress during Oklahoma City. I saw the craziness that led up to it. We're there again. Yeah, there are people, by the way, Joe, you talk about the mainstream Republicans who are worried about this thing, but the people who are focused on action, they talk about the Oklahoma City bombing. They talk about that as an awakening for them and a blueprint. And that's more in the militia and extreme far right spaces. But they do. They talk about that as a model for them because other than the whole bombing millions of Americans, hundreds of Americans think that that was, uh, to them protest. Um, and that is a, that's the scary part of this entire thing is that we, they are entering a phase where violent action is,

is their form of protest. Um, it is a scary time. And I just do, I do want to say this. If you are somebody who at one point in your life in the future want to disagree with Donald Trump about anything, they will come after you next. The idea that you are somehow safe because you are defending their conspiracy theories right now, it will it will come to an end the second that you stand on some sort of principle that goes against what they have to say. All right. NBC's Ben Collins, thank you very much for coming on this morning for this important conversation. We hope somebody's listening. Coming up, President Biden's recent string of legislative wins seems to have had an impact on his poll numbers. We'll show you what

voters are saying about Biden and what it means for Democrats in November, what it could mean. Also ahead, new attacks in Eastern Europe as Russian missiles hit Ukraine's second largest city. We'll be joined by Ukraine's ambassador to the United States ahead on Morning Joe. We'll be right back.