Morning Joe - Morning Joe 8/2/22

Episode Date: August 2, 2022

U.S. drone strike kills Al Qaeda leader Ayman al-Zawahiri in Afghanistan

Tonight, I can report to the American people and to the world that the United States has conducted an operation that killed Iman al-Zawiri at my direction. The United States launched a precision strike that would remove him from the battlefield once and for all. It was nearly 10 years ago that a bright September day was darkened by the attacks that murdered 2,977 people on American soil. Over the years, I've repeatedly made clear that no matter how long it takes, no matter where you hide, we will never tolerate our security being threatened. If you are a threat to our people,

we will be relentless in defense of our citizens. And the United States will find you and take you out. Tonight, we give thanks to the superb patriots who serve the United States intelligence community and counterterrorism communities. Finally, let me say to the families who lost loved ones on 9-11. Fathers and mothers, husbands, wives, sons and daughters, brothers and sisters, friends and co-workers. We have never forgotten your loss. May God protect our troops and all those who serve in harm's way.

And may God bless the United States of America. More than 20 years after 9-11 and more than a decade after the killing of Osama bin Laden, the U.S. takes out the terrorist leader who helped plan that attack and others against Americans, with President Biden declaring the mission a, quote, total success. We'll explain how it was carried out. Also this morning, China is now threatening a military response over House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's expected visit to Taiwan. The U.S. is warning Beijing not to turn the trip into a crisis. We'll go live to the White House to speak with the National Security Council's John Kirby. And it is primary day across five states with major implications for abortion rights and election integrity. Meanwhile, Donald Trump stirs up confusion in Missouri after an 11th hour endorsement that has two leading candidates

in the Senate primary. They're both claiming the former president is supporting them. We'll explain. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Tuesday, August 2nd. Good to have you all with us. Good to have Joe, Willie and me together. Nice to see you, Willie. Good morning. Great to see you, Willie. You know, every September 11th for 20 years, we have reflected either personally or on air about what was lost that day, who was lost. And you talk about people on your street. You talk about loved ones that you knew. Of course, it was deeply personal for Mika as well, down at ground zero for a couple of weeks. I didn't quite understand how personal the first couple of years, both of you, when we would, when the show started and we would recall what happened on 9-11, tears would fill Mika's

eyes. I could tell you were fighting back really deep emotions on a personal level. We all obviously were impacted. But it's incredible that that all these years later, the terrorist who was not. I saw the headline that said he described him as bin Laden's successor. But as Lawrence Wright, the looming tower and so many other people uh taught us through the years zawa hiri was actually the one that went to bin laden he was bin laden's mentor he was the one that said hey you could use your family's wealth and power and fame to kill americans to launch terrorist attacks to do things things against U.S. warships and things like 9-11. I mean, he really was the center of al-Qaeda and their terror campaign against America. And finally, finally last night, I never thought it was going to happen

because it seemed that we killed every other leader in al-Qaeda through the years. Finally, last night, he was brought to justice and brought to justice in a very disturbing location in the capital of Afghanistan, where the Taliban, make no mistake of it, are enemies. The Taliban once again sheltering an al-Qaeda leader. Yeah, right in the heart of a wealthy neighborhood, by the way, of Kabul in Afghanistan, it'd be like if he'd been sitting out on his balcony on the upper east side on Fifth Avenue or something and a drone strike took him out. But you're right. He'd almost faded from memory from the public. He the United States has been after this guy for a long time. He was behind the 1998 embassy bombings in Tanzania and Kenya. He was behind the bombing of the coal, along with bin Laden, of course.

And as you said, he really did push Osama bin Laden to attack the United States. The head of the snake is the way they put it. We can't just be happy with Israel and Middle Eastern countries that support the United States. We have to go right to the top. And that was this guy. And he was killed. He was killed on Saturday night, Eastern Time. Been on the run for decades.

Ayman al-Zawahiri killed over the weekend by a CIA drone while standing on a balcony in downtown Kabul. He was second in command to bin Laden during the September 11th attacks, became the top leader when the United States killed bin Laden in 2011. A senior administration official tells NBC News the strike was so precise, none of his family inside the home were killed. In a rare evening address last night, President Biden said justice has been delivered. People around the world no longer need to fear the vicious and determined killer.

The United States continues to demonstrate our resolve and our capacity to defend the American people against those who seek to do us harm. You know, we make it clear again tonight that no matter how long it takes, no matter where you hide, if you are a threat to our people, the United States will find you and take you hide. If you are a threat to our people, the United States will find you and take you out.

This operation is a clear demonstration that we will, we can, and we'll always make good on the solemn pledge. My administration will continue to vigilantly monitor and address threats from al-Qaeda, no matter where they emanate from. As Commander-in-Chief, it is my solemn responsibility to make America safe in a dangerous world. The United States did not seek this war against terror. It came to us, and we answered with the same principles and resolve that have shaped us for generation upon generation, to protect the innocent, defend liberty, and we keep the light of freedom burning a beacon for the rest of the entire world. You know, Willie, it really is incredible what we've been able to do, what the CIA has been

able to do through the years in bringing so many of these terrorists to justice. It is fascinating, though. There you have the same man that withdrew troops from Afghanistan, something that I was against. It was against giving up Bagram Air Force Base. I still think we need to peacefully repatriate it, but we'll save that for another day. And what did we hear? We left Afghanistan and now the terrorists are going to be able to run wild in Afghanistan. Now Al Qaeda is going to be able to reform in Afghanistan. And ironically enough, and I'm not suggesting that Joe Biden saw this ahead of time, but ironically enough, it was the United States leaving Afghanistan that had the head of al-Qaeda feel comfortable sitting in an apartment in Afghanistan where we could find him and take him out.

Yeah. And, you know, obviously, there's course, this is good news. But this shows that the Taliban is, in fact, harboring people like Al-Zawahiri and other terrorists in the country, contrary to what President Biden told us. But it gets at this over the horizon, as the military calls it, capability. In other words, not needing boots on the ground in Afghanistan, not needing to have a couple of thousand troops there to be able to exert power and to take out somebody like al-Zawahiri. But it does raise the big question, Joe, of the Taliban and this deal that Donald Trump struck with them in Doha and that President Biden has kind of signed on to, which is that the United States will get the troops out of Afghanistan and rely on the Taliban

to sort of keep track of and not harbor these terrorists, which clearly, if Al-Zawahiri was living in downtown, out in the open, standing on the balcony of Kabul, the Taliban wasn't watching him too closely. Well, I would say it's time to renegotiate that deal, Willie. When you have something as basic as this. I mean, this is the reason we went in Afghanistan in 2001. And no, I'm not saying that we invade Afghanistan again. And I'm not saying we go because most Americans, even though, of course, Joe Biden's withdrawal from Afghanistan blew up in his face politically and it caused chaos. ISIS killed 12, 13 Marines.

At the same time, we've we've got to make sure that that terrorist groups can't reconstitute there. And the Taliban have just proven to us in the most dramatic way, just as Pakistan did with Osama bin Laden, that not only are they not our friends, not only are they not our allies, but there are sworn enemies still. As people were saying, as we were talking about getting out of Afghanistan, the new Taliban is the old Taliban. It's the same thing. And when I say we need to repatriate Bagram Air Force Base, I'm, you know, like I said, we'll talk about that on another day. But I see absolutely no reason why we should respect anything the Taliban has to say. And I think strong American leadership demands that we sit back down at the table with them and renegotiate terms and let them know we can renegotiate terms anytime we want to renegotiate terms, especially if they're holding the number one terrorist in the world who who has has made it his life's mission to kill Americans. Yeah. Richard Haass will be joining us later. And he's he's got a sense of, you know, maybe a more conditional relationship and what that might look

at look like. Now, al-Zawahiri escaped U.S. forces in 2001. His whereabouts had been unknown since then. But earlier this year, U.S. intelligence determined he had moved from Pakistan to a Taliban-supported safe house in downtown Kabul. That's when officials began planning the strike. In a July 1st meeting, officials used a model of the terrorist leader's safe house to bring President Biden on the risk to to brief him on the risk to civilians if they were to take him out. Then in a meeting on July 25th, President Biden authorized the strike, telling officials to carry it out when the time was optimal. That time came Friday night here in the U.S., Saturday morning in Kabul, when the terrorist was hit by two Hellfire missiles.

The U.S. did not warn the Taliban ahead of the strike. Let's bring in former NATO Supreme Allied Commander, retired four-star Navy Admiral James Tafridis. He is chief international security and diplomacy analyst for NBC News and MSNBC. Former senior operations officer with the CIA, Mark Polymeropoulos, joins us. Chief White House correspondent for The New York Times, Peter Baker, is here. And the host of Way Too Early and White House bureau chief at Politico, Jonathan Lemire, along with former aide to the George W. Bush White House and State Department's Elise Jordan. A great group for this really momentous morning. Yeah, you know, the Pensacola boy in me always demands that I defer to the admiral and go there first.

But this morning, I think I'm going to go to the guy who lost friends looking for Zawahiri, looking for this monster. Mark, we spoke yesterday. You were very emotional when the news came in. You were emotional because of the men and women who lost their lives hunting this animal down who plotted out 9-11, who, wasn't bin Laden's successor to al-Qaeda. He was bin Laden's mentor who pushed him towards al-Qaeda. Tell me what this means to you. Tell me what this means to the professionals in the CIA who have been hunting this person down for 20 years. Joe, you're absolutely right.

And I find it even hard to talk about it now. This is a really deeply personal moment for me in the hunt for Ayman al-Zawahiri. I lost friends. I helped bury them. And and so so yesterday, you know, we're hearing this news, you know, you kind of sit back and you kind of reflect back on the last 20 years. You know, former CIA director, General Mike Hayden, on social media yesterday essentially said, remember, coast. And what does that mean? On December 30th, 2009, a suicide bomber, a double agent, you know, ultimately working against us, killed seven of my colleagues in coast Afghanistan. That operation was designed to ultimately try to find and locate Ayman Zawakri. So I think last night or yesterday when we heard the news, I had extraordinary pride for my colleagues in the intelligence community who really have perfected this art of manhunting.

But let's just tip our hat to the men and women of the intelligence community of my old organization, the CIA. We don't forget. We always remember. it took 20 years. But I think for the families of some of the victims, certainly of 9-11 and also the families of those officers, the intelligence community lost their lives yesterday, you know, perhaps would give some closure. Admiral Stravitas, we've been looking for this terrorist leader for 20 years now. It seemed that he would always elude us. He would always escape to the next safe house. What were your thoughts yesterday when you heard the news?

And how important is this? It's huge. And this sort of reflects the arc, if you will, of this forever war. And it really goes back before 9-11. Don't forget in 98 is when bin Laden with Zawahiri right there at his right hand side launches these attacks on American embassies, killing American diplomats, but also our local workers in Tanzania and Kenya. Then we have the cold. Then we have 9-11. Finally, in 2011, we kill bin Laden, our Navy SEALs. And now in 22, we take out Zawahiri. Again, as Mark says so eloquently, the CIA does it. I mean, this is, if you will, the ultimate

expression of the interagency continuing to take this road to find this killer. It's a remarkable moment. We ought to take a lot of pride across the interagency, but especially today to Bill Burns, the director of the CIA, his men and women, everything they have done really puts this as a fine moment for America. We can't let our guard down. There are going to be many challenges ahead. We can talk about what this means for over the horizon, for Afghanistan, for the Taliban. But we had to just stop and celebrate for a minute a very important moment in this war. And needless to say, it's not often that these things are executed perfectly. And this was executed with precision. As we mentioned, al-Zarhaheri was second in command to Osama bin Laden when al-Qaeda attacked the United States

on September 11th, 2001. But he was wanted by U.S. officials well before then. He helped plan the 1998 bombings of the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania that killed 224 people, including 12 Americans. He was also involved in the planning of the U.S. of the attack on the USS Cole in 2000. That attack in that attack, two suicide bombers and small boats pulled up alongside the destroyer as it refueled in Yemen and detonated their explosives. 17 American sailors were killed and nearly 40 were injured. Peter Baker, what more are you hearing from the White House at this moment in terms of what more they plan to communicate to the American public about this attack? Obviously, the president had some comments, but there will be a lot more questions

about what's next and also about the Taliban itself, their involvement. Yeah, that's right. I think you're right. They'll send out their officials this morning. Obviously, Jake Sullivan is going to be on NBC. Others, I imagine, will be fanning out. It's a big day, obviously, for President Biden, an important victory for him at a time when he's feeling or when he's, you know, enduring still, you know, some domestic political troubles, you know, a clear victory for the United States, assuming the facts are as they've been presented, you know, to be able to take out the number two, you know, plotter for the 9-11 without any civilian casualties is actually a remarkable feat. And I think what you see now is that Afghanistan has returned in some ways to that state that it was back then, where somebody like Zawahiri feels that he can live there relatively openly with impunity. You know, he was not he was right there in the middle of Kabul.

That wasn't some cave in the mountains of Tora Bora. That was right there in the heart of where the Taliban officials themselves live, a diplomatic enclave in the capital. The fact that he felt that he had impunity to do that is rather remarkable after 21 years of searching for him. On the other hand, obviously, what President Biden has said, he can now argue is true, that the Americans can still wage war against terrorists without having to put large, you know, ground forces in the country that we don't have to necessarily have tens of thousands of Americans on the ground in order to be able to to take out a figure like Zawahiri as they did through these drone strikes. So it's going to raise a lot of questions. You already heard Republicans last night saying that, you know, Zawahiri's presence

in Afghanistan demonstrated the failure of President Biden's withdrawal. And you saw Democrats saying that the ability to take him out demonstrated the success of his policy in Afghanistan. Mark, we'll come back to the policy in just a minute. But I want to just talk to you about the pursuit of Al-Zawahiri and reading the accounts of this, just the extraordinary patience of American intelligence, the extraordinary patience of people like you in the CIA. I mean, we go back to 1998. He's had a twenty five million dollar bounty on his head. I've been looking for this guy. And, you know, in some ways, reading these accounts, there are echoes of the pursuit of bin Laden, which is, you know, rebuilding the

apartment somewhere so that intelligence officials can look at and plan how to go after him. The use of this hellfire missile, which just has blades on it. There's no explosion, so it can cut through metal. It can cut through concrete and a target as well. This is not weeks or months in the making. This was years. This was a generation effectively in the making. Willie, that's right. You know, I think back to a really good friend of mine who spent and understand that spent 10 years searching for bin Laden. That's all he did every day for 10 years. And it wasn't in Paris or Berlin. It was in South Asia. It was in some really nasty places. So that's kind of the dedication that you find in the U.S. counterterrorism community. At the end of the day, the United States has perfected the art of manhunting. You know, and I call it a triad that we have.

You have human intelligence, which is spies on the ground. You have signals intelligence intercept and you have ISR, which is in fact eyes in the sky, you know, manned or unmanned platforms. And our ability to over time, very patiently, very methodically. And with, you know, the notion of doing this with what we call zero collateral without zero collateral, without civilian casualties, you know, it is it is absolutely extraordinary. You know, we've we've actually perfected this art of of manhunting. Let me say something just just quite quickly, because I think it's important in terms of counterterrorism strategy. We do two things in a proper counterterrorism campaign. You try to take out the leader in a decapitation strike,

like what happened, you know, several nights ago. So, you know, that's that's cutting off, you know, the head of the snake. But at the same time, you do need to keep pressure on the ground troops, on the foot soldiers of al Qaeda. And I think that's where, you know, there is an element of truth in the notion that, yes, we killed Ayman Zawahiri, but we need to keep a sustained campaign on al Qaeda in Afghanistan. And over the horizon, operations are going to be a bit more difficult in doing that. Let me ask you, Admiral Stravitas, your thoughts about where we go from here with the Taliban, with Afghanistan. Obviously, we were successful yesterday in this strike in Kabul, in the heart of Afghanistan. But what do we do now? We wake up to this news.

Obviously, the president is known for some time that the Taliban was was hiding this guy in their country, of course, lying to us as we knew they would. So what's America's next step with the Taliban? Before we get to the Taliban, let me just say our next step with al-Qaeda is to keep the pressure on exactly as Mark just said. And of course, it's not just the CIA. It'll be DOD. It'll be the Department of Defense. It'll be the Department of State. It'll be all of our entities of government that protect us. And here at home, our Department of Homeland Security. So point one is keep the pressure on. Point two with al-Qaeda is the new leader of al-Qaeda will probably be anointed within the next five days. His name will probably be Saif al-Adel. And guess where he is?

He's in Iran. So point B, we're going to have to continue to focus on this organization, al-Qaeda alongside Islamic State, al-Shabaab, Boko Haram. Everyone's very tired after 20 years and plus of these forever wars. But we're going to have to continue to focus on and look for potentially reaction from al-Qaeda somewhere to strike back. In terms of the Taliban, Joe, I would say we need, as you said, to take a fresh look, if you will, at our relationship here. This is taking us right back to 9-11. Here's this guy in the, as Willie said a minute ago, in the Upper East Side, kind of hard to picture that rule. But at the end of the day, we need a transactional relationship with the

Taliban. Let's know, OK, this is unacceptable. Here are the consequences. Here's how you can begin to get back into a serious relationship. And the tools here are going to be economic. And then third and finally, and perhaps most obviously, we need to maintain the ability to replicate this kind of action, this over the horizon. And sometimes it'll work. Sometimes it'll be less effective. But it beats having 150,000 troops on the ground in these countries. And I'll tell you who are masters at this are the Israelis. We can learn from others. We can continue to keep

our skills up. We ought to be prepared for what's coming. But bottom line, today we ought to celebrate and we deserve that today. Hey, Peter Baker, let's talk about what this means for President Biden. It was almost exactly a year ago where the U.S. withdrawal of its military forces from Afghanistan began with real tumult and violence, including that suicide bombing at the airport there. And now we have him at the White House, still in COVID isolation, announcing this drone strike. He famously opposed the bin Laden raid. He gave the order to go ahead and take out al Qaeda's new leader yesterday. It also comes at a moment where maybe it justifies the over the horizon method that he has pushed for U.S.

approach to Afghanistan, but also comes at a moment where he's got some domestic political wins on the offing as well. Talk to us about where this means right now for the commander in chief. Yeah, I think that's all exactly right. I mean, you know, I think that for President Biden, obviously, this is going to be a big win. I mean, taking a guy like Zawahiri off the board for any commander in chief would be a big win. You saw him, you know, using the venue of the White House to announce it, a la President Obama in 2011. You played the two events back to back. I think that was an intentional echo. Some of the wording was the same, right? President Obama said 11 years ago that justice had been delivered. President

Biden said last night that justice has been, actually, I think it was President Biden said last night justice has been delivered. And President Obama said justice has been done. Almost exactly the same wording. They wanted to evoke that same sense of national pride and spirit that, you know, that we saw 11 years ago. But, you know, it's a it's a different era than it was back then. You know, politically, you know, you know, a whole generation has passed. A lot of, you know, Americans don't remember who's out here he was. I mean, obviously, they're going to be reminded of him today as we show images and remind viewers of his critical role in planning, not just the 9-11, but other attacks.

But he didn't have the same visceral presence, this global notoriety, I think, that Nassau bin Laden did. But you're right. You know, I think, John, to look at what it's going to do in terms of the Afghan anniversary, it's about to come up. President Biden obviously will have a better argument to make that his policy, as bad as it looked a year ago, has, you know, borne fruit today in the sense of his ability to still take out terrorists even without those troops on the ground. But there'll be a lot of quite second guessing about, you know, turning Afghanistan in effect over to the Taliban and whether Zahiri's presence there indicates that it is now becoming again what it was 21 years ago,

which is a haven for for terrorists. Elise, in your time at the NSC in the State Department, you, of course, worked on Afghanistan policy in the Bush administration. How big a target was this man when you all sat down and looked at it? And also your view currently of our policy in Afghanistan. This is what a lot of people predicted. Of course, there's no new Taliban. The Taliban is the Taliban. It's always been and always will be. They may have put on a face a year ago to say, we'll accept the transition. We won't harbor terrorists. But now here is the number one terrorist standing on a balcony in downtown Kabul. Well, big picture, I think it's unsurprising that we had al-Zawahiri standing on a balcony in the Tony area of Kabul, where he was in a nice home, a big mansion from the looks of it, as I've seen. And he wasn't in a cave, as Peter said, in Tora

Bora without running water. But he also reports have said that he was harbored by senior officials who were associated with the minister of interior, Haqqani, who has also a 10 million dollar bounty on his head for terrorism. So this is it's pretty unsurprising that he was there, that he had safe harbor. This is still the same Taliban. I think that the CIA and the Intelligence Committee deserves huge props for what they were able to achieve here. And it does show that perhaps we don't need boots on the ground to still be able to have this kind of targeted strikes. I just wanted to go to Mark and I wanted to see if Mark could talk a bit about what this means that the minister of interior had a role in housing this terrorist who was so wanted by the United States in downtown Kabul in an area where you had to go through checkpoints, Taliban checkpoints. No one was living there that they didn't know.

And ironically, it's an area that is actually close to the U.S., the old U.S. embassy. Let's just kind of think about that for a moment. But at least you're 100 percent right. So so reportedly, Zawahiri was staying at a house connected to the relative of Siraj Akhani, who is not only the minister of interior, but in essence, the de facto Taliban leader. And I, who is not only the minister of interior, but in essence, the de facto Taliban leader. And I think this is something that, you know, when the Doha Accords first were signed by then President Trump and then essentially ratified by President Biden, somewhat surprisingly, that was all of our concern. You know, there is no new Taliban. It was always the old Taliban. I started working on Afghanistan in 1994. I remember the rise of

the Taliban in 1996, the same individuals, you know, back then who rose to power and, of course, turned Afghanistan into a terrorist haven. They're still there today. So I think that's enormously problematic for the United States as we move forward, because once again, you know, there are a terrorist safe haven is something of huge concern. But don't forget, we also have, you know, tens, if not over 100,000 of our Afghan allies, you know, individuals who work for us still trapped in Afghanistan. So we do actually have to deal with the Taliban to still try to get our old allies out. So it's an enormous challenge, both, you know, on the counterterrorism side, but also kind of on the humanitarian side as well, with many really incredible, I would call them patriots, who helped save American lives still stuck in country today.

Well, I mean, it seems to me there are a lot of opportunities for some negotiations here. They can help there. We can give them money. We can get Bagram Air Force Base back. If they don't want to give get Bagram Air Force Base back. If they don't want to give us Bagram Air Force Base back, we can take Bagram Air Force Base back. Still give them money. I mean, here you go with Bagram. We gave up one of the most strategically located bases on the planet. There's absolutely no reason why we couldn't have a relationship with the Taliban like we had with Castro, where we had Gitmo. We had a base in a hostile country. But if it's hard,

Admiral, is it not to find a base in 2022 more strategically located than Bagram in between Iran and China. And if we're reopening any negotiations, I sure would want that to be on the table. I know I know it's it's it's not likely, but certainly, again, when you are harboring an American enemy, when you were lying, when you have broken the negotiations, I think everything's back on the table. Indeed, it is. And, you know, I'll give you another example of this. It would have been incomprehensible in 1975 when helicopters were lifting off the roofs of the embassy to think that we would ever go back into Da Nang, for example, one of the most important ports on the South China Sea in the country of Vietnam.

So things change, negotiations occur. We've got a long way to go with the Taliban. But I think, again, the word in my mind is transactional. We have things we can offer. They have some things they can offer. Mark's excellent point about our patriots who stayed and worked with us and are still at risk. But also that strategic location, the ability to operate in and out of their intelligence cooperation. We have a shared opponent with the Taliban in the Islamic State, which is another global organization, perhaps more lethal today than the Taliban are, and certainly than al-Qaeda. So I think there is room to negotiate, Bagram critical. And by the way, the Chinese love that site. The Russians love that site.

There will be competition, shall we say, for working there. Life is in negotiation. Again, today we scored. Let's see where it goes in the future, but let's keep our guard up. Retired four-star Navy Admiral James Stavridis, former senior CIA officer Mark Polymeropoulos, chief White House correspondent for The New York Times, Peter Baker. Thank you all very much for being on this morning.

And still ahead on Morning Joe, we have much more on that drone strike that killed the leader of Al Qaeda. White House National Security Council official John Kirby will join us with more on what it means for U.S. counterterrorism efforts. We'll also be joined by a member of the House Armed Services Committee, Congressman and Marine Corps combat vet Ruben Gallego will be our guest. Plus, a man who took part in the Capitol riot gets the longest sentence for a January 6th defendant so far. What his family had to say about that and who they think also deserves to be in prison. Also ahead, Chairman of the Veteran Affairs Committee, Senator John Tester will join us. He'll be here to weigh in on where the health care bill for veterans exposed to toxic burn pit stands in Congress right now. And Kentucky's National Guard has been airlifting dozens of people stranded by deadly floodwaters. We'll be joined by Governor Andy Beshear for the latest on the rescue and recovery efforts.

You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back. eating people that are dying my only son what do i say to him? How do I tell him? I'm here. He's like, mom, go get him, kick ass. What good news am I going to tell him when I get home? I'm sorry, son. They put it off again. You know what he's going to say? Oh, that doesn't surprise me. That's the government. It's been days since Republicans blocked a key health care bill for veterans. And this morning, it is still at a crossroads. Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer says another vote on the PACT Act will happen in the coming days. It comes after Republicans blocked the bill to provide life-saving health benefits for veterans exposed to toxic burn pits in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The woman you just saw is one of dozens of people camping out on the Capitol steps to protest the holdup, including many who are sick and dying themselves. Republican Senator Pat Toomey is facing the most pressure after he said he wants an amendment to make technical changes for the accounting of VA funds. But those veterans and their most famous advocate, Jon Stewart, say it can't come soon enough. I just consider this like the lowest hanging fruit of a functioning society and government. Like, I think what's most upsetting to me is if you have to push this hard for something this obvious, what chance do the rest of us have on health care, on weight, on anything? Joining us now, the chairman of the Veteran Affairs Committee, Democratic Senator John

Tester of Montana. And Senator, Republicans supported this bill before they were against it, but they claim that Democrats forced them to oppose the bill by making changes to it, that there were, it looks different. Is there, were there any changes made to the bill that would put Republicans in this position? Any at all? There was one sentence taken out of the bill that said that VA could buy out provider contracts. That's it. That's the only change. One sentence.

And the only reason that was done is because it raised revenue, and so we had to strip it out. The bottom line is this is exactly, exactly the same bill that we voted on on June 16th and passed with 84 votes. And I've got to tell you, I cannot figure out why we passed this bill, gave the benefits. The folks thought they had them. And now we've taken it away, you know, two, three weeks later. It doesn't make any sense to me. These folks fought for our freedom and fought for our keep us safe. And now we're going to deny them benefits that they have earned. Well, that was what I was going to ask you. I mean, why would they all of a sudden oppose it? That one change you talked about, does it change the way money is allocated? Does it change timing? Does it change amounts? No, there are no changes. No, no changes. And look, there are 84 people

voted for it. Senator Toomey is a friend. He's a smart guy. He voted against this bill. He was one of the few that voted against it on June 16th. And to be honest with you, I don't think the Republicans that voted against it knew fully that this was the same bill that we voted on on June 16th. And there were no changes and there are no changes to it. And we're still in that point. And it's a big bill. It's a complicated bill, but not that complicated that folks couldn't sit down and ask questions about it. So look, what I'm hoping for, Mika, is I'm hoping that Senator Schumer and Senator McConnell get together and develop a path forward on what amendments or amendment we're going to deal with and get this thing passed. These folks are dying by the day.

Health care that's delayed is health care that's denied. And quite honestly, we wouldn't have the people out here on the steps. We wouldn't have every veteran service organization out here fighting for this bill if it wasn't important. And so we need to get it done. So, Senator, it's Willie. Good morning. I just want to underline what you said, because it's the heart of the opposition from Republicans that we're hearing, which is that you guys, Senator Toomey says sneak something into the bill that's completely unrelated to getting money to these veterans. Is is untrue. There is no sneaking in. I don't operate that way. Everything is transparent.

This was done in a bipartisan way. We've worked on this bill for the last year and a half. It's been out in the public. There's no sneaking around here. Veterans are too important to sneak things in. Well, that really undermines their entire argument. And as you say, Senator Toomey voted against this bill originally. He was one of the few. But how do you explain all the Republicans who voted for it? You say this one sentence was put in by the House. Why do you suspect they're voting against it now? Yeah, the House took out a sentence, by the way. But I think that there was presentations done and phone calls made and people switched their point of view, I think, improperly. So, Senator, go ahead. I'm sorry, Willie. Go, go, go, go, Willie.

Well, I just I just wanted, Senator, because so much has gotten lost in this. It's become about the machinery of Congress right now. What we're talking about exactly. We had Paul Rykoff on with Jon Stewart a couple of days ago. Paul has been, as I said the other day, out front on this, a veteran himself who started IAVA talking about burn pits, burn pits, burn pits. What kind of problems these veterans are seeing and how urgent this legislation is? Well, we've had hearings for the last year and a half on this. We've had veterans that have testified in front of the Senate Veterans Affairs Committee that have died because of their exposure to burn pits. The cancers, the lung conditions that are caused are serious and they need to be dealt with.

We send folks off to war in places that are a whole lot different than the United States of America. When they come back, they have injuries. Whether they're injuries you can see or not see, it doesn't matter. We need to take care of them. And that has been the goal of the Senate Veterans Affairs Committee. And my goal as chairman of that committee. It's been delayed right now, and I hope it's a delay. I hope we get this bill done. We're going to continue to fight to make sure it does get done because it's too important not to get done. I said on the floor last week, Willie, that we have an all-volunteer military.

Folks sign up. We make promises to the folks who sign the dotted line. They make promises to us. We need to uphold our end of the bargain. And part of that bargain is health care and benefits associated with that health care. Hey, Senator, though I find it hard to believe, I have heard reports that Republicans are actually holding up this bill that veterans desperately need for their health,

to save their lives, because they're being petulant about a reconciliation bill that may pass. Is it really just a game for these Republicans? I mean, does it really come down to something as small as that, that because of this little pitched political battle, they're willing to leave veterans that have fought for this country for years hanging? It's not a game for the veterans, Joe. It's life and death for the veterans. And I will tell you that some of them, because there's been quotes in the paper that says we're not going to do this. And look, you know this. You've been here. If you want to figure out a way to vote against a bill, you can do it. The problem here is our veterans are too important to our nation.

They are part of our fabric. And if we don't take care of them, why should we expect them to take care of us? And so, yeah, I'm sure there's folks out there that are using this as an excuse, but remember this, Joe, it's just an excuse. Take a look at what's going on out there with our veterans and the impacts of toxic exposure through the generations, by the way, and it's real and we need to get it done. Paul Rykoff, I will tell you, talked to me about this issue when I walked through the doors of the United States Senate over 15 years ago. And so it's not an ailment that's come up just recently. It's been around. We've talked about it. We've worked on it in committee for a year and a half. The secretary is in full support of this. They can handle the

workload and it is going to be additional workload. But ultimately, in the end, it's the right thing to do and we need to get her done. But Republicans, in the end, it's the right thing to do, and we need to get her done. But Republicans claim, they've always claimed that they were the champions of vets. But for the Republicans, this would have already passed, right? Yeah, absolutely 100% correct. And I don't understand the thought process here. It doesn't make any sense politically or from a policy standpoint to hold this bill up. All right. Chairman of the Veterans Affairs Committee, Senator John Tester,

thank you so much for being with us. And more importantly, thank you so much for your important work here. Thanks, guys. Jonathan, Jonathan O'Meara, I just I just want to follow up with you and Elise Jordan. I do. I mean, you know, I I worked up there. I know how things get. Things can get testy. But, man, I can't remember any party holding aid for vets in such a serious in such a serious situation, holding it up and switching their position on a bill because they're angry about a reconciliation package that's passing or they're they're angry about another bill. It's it it seems, again, like extraordinarily short-sighted and cruel. And it also seems like a strategy that's doomed to fail politically. Yeah, an act of pure petulance.

A rare moment where Senate Minority Leader McConnell got outmaneuvered by Senate Majority Leader Schumer. And the Republicans threw a fit. They tried, first of all, to try to whip against the CHIPS bill. It already had passed the Senate at that point. They tried to whip against it in the House, making their Republican colleagues take pretty unpopular stances to go against a bill that would have potentially hurt China economically. That's number one. And then number two, veterans, to try to deprive them of such necessary health benefits there out of active pure petulance, an extraordinarily unpopular maneuver. And then at least Jordan, they announced that with no

changes to the bill, it's going to pass anyway. We heard from Senator McConnell yesterday that before this week is out, this is going to get done. So what was the point of the delay other than to try to throw some sort of fit? I have no idea other than a fit and other than just trying to create beautiful attack ads for Democrats in, you know, these purple districts where you can just have veterans talking about how someone denied them care for their horrific condition post burn pit. It just really is disgusting that we can we have politicians who are so eager to send men and women to war, yet they don't want to pay for the care that they require in the aftermath, the long term bill, the long term cost of those wars. And we just heard

from Senator Tester, not an activist, not a, you know, a partisan hack by any means, that it's just patently untrue that this bill was changed between that first vote where it got 84 votes and now where all these Republicans have changed their votes. He just said it very clearly to you and again to me. There was one line taken out having nothing to do with the supposed complaint from Pat Toomey and others. Well, that's what I was trying to understand. Yeah understand. Yeah, it's crazy. I mean, you look at the position that Republicans have put themselves in just out of pure petulance. They have opposed veterans health care to try to make some procedural point. So they're against veterans health care. Well, they're against women's health care, so I'm not surprised.

And they also, as we as John Jonathan brought up, they're also against the United States being more competitive against China. That's the position they've taken over the past couple of weeks because of sheer petulance. They keep getting outmaneuvered. They get outmaneuvered on the January 6th commission going, oh, no, we're not going to take part in it. And now they see they've made a colossal, I would say possibly a historic mistake. They keep getting outmaneuvered. They just may not be as good at this game as we give them credit for being. Well, we're going to get back to this, but we're going to now jump back to our top story of the day, which is, of course, the U.S. taking out the leader of al-Qaeda,

who is being harbored by the Taliban. Joining us now, National Security Council coordinator for strategic communications at the White House, retired Rear Admiral John Kirby. Admiral, it's great to have you on this morning. We understand this was a very specialized drone strike that killed al-Zahrairi. Can you give us more details, perhaps anything that hasn't been released yet surrounding the nature of this, well, pretty important moment for justice in American history? Yeah, I think obviously we're being somewhat careful, Mika, in the way we describe this strike, because we want to be able to preserve our flexibility to do these kinds of things in the future. But this was, you know, about a year ago, Mika,

and you and I were talking, you know, after the withdrawal from Afghanistan, we're talking about over the horizon counterterrorism capability and to the degree to which we could do it. This proves the case that it can be done. We didn't have any boots on the ground, but over a constant series of meticulous gathering of intelligence and information over the course of many months, we were able to execute this strike with great efficiency. And from the time the president decided to move forward on the 25th of July till the strike itself this Saturday night. Really, the only things that were kind of holding us up was weather, making sure that we exactly had eyes on the target. And of course, really importantly, because the president made this

very strongly, is that there was not going to be any civilian casualties. So timing was critical, but it really proves the case that over the horizon, counterterrorism capability of a significant effect can be done. You know, I'm not sure if you're a who fan or not, the band, the who. But if you are, you'll get the reference. Meet the new Taliban. Same as the old Taliban. What do we do about that fact? We're dealing with people who are harboring our our our worst enemies, who are hardening people who've devoted their entire lives to killing Americans at home and abroad, Americans in civilian clothes, Americans in uniforms.

Don't we have to go back and look at that agreement we made, renegotiate it, rewrite it? I don't know that we're going to be rewriting the Doha agreement. Clearly, though, Joe, the presence of Mr. Zawahiri in Kabul violates the Doha agreement. There's no question about that. And we've made that clear. I think the Taliban very much understand what we're about and how seriously we're going to take our commitments to protect this country against terrorism threats. Believe me, they got the message. And this strike itself was a measure of accountability, not just for Mr. Zawahiri and al-Qaeda, but for anybody else that would think next time about harboring terrorists that could threaten the homeland. So we're going to keep an eye on this. We're going to watch this very,

very closely. We knew when we left Afghanistan, we knew that there was a small presence of al-Qaeda already in the country. And we said that at the time, we're going to continue to monitor the threat to make sure that we can deal with it. Admiral, this is perhaps not isolated, though, as you know better than than I do. This entire neighborhood is sort of been cleared out by the Taliban to house VIPs. And I think there were there was a large group of people, the Connie Network and Taliban who knew that Al-Zawahiri was there. What do you do about that? You say this was a message to the Taliban. Do you think they'll change their their practices, their views the way they've always been because of this one strike?

Well, we certainly hope so. I mean, we certainly hope that the message has been sent that we that we meant it when we said it, that we were going to make sure that we would not allow Afghanistan become a safe haven for terrorist threats again to the homeland. So we hope it does. We hope it does have an effect on them and their behavior. But if it doesn't, Willie, we are still going to stay vigilant. We're still going to stay capable. And as we proved just over the last couple of days, we have the capability to conduct over the horizon counterterrorism strikes from far, far away with great effect. So I think the message has been very, very clearly sent, not just to Al-Qaeda, but to anybody that might harbor them there. So, Admiral, without giving too much of your operational plans and how you carried this off, can you explain to the viewers, because I think it does get to the argument that over the horizon strikes do work and that you can do this without boots on the ground. How exactly you ID'd and then carried out a strike that, according to reports so far that we have, killed only one man on one balcony in the middle of Kabul.

Yeah, I mean, it's just an incredible amount of painstaking work that went into this. And I want to be careful here about the intelligence stream. But basically, we were able to track the movement of Mr. Zawahiri's family to Kabul. And then by tracking that and understanding where they were, we were able to then track his movements to join up with his family. Then it was simply a matter of, once we knew where he was, of watching, developing a pattern of life, if you will, trying to understand both the habits of this individual, but also confirming that this individual, but also confirming that this individual was, in fact, Mr. Zawahiri. Once that was done, and that took a matter of,

well, that took some weeks to do. And once we had that in place, then it was really a matter of presenting the case to the national security team and to the president, of course, for the president to make a decision. And then he obviously made that decision. And then, as I said, a few days, a few minutes ago, it really came down to timing, to making sure that all the conditions were right, that we could get him and that we could do so without hurting any civilians. And of course, the weather also played a little bit of a factor there. Wow. National Security Council coordinator for strategic communications at the White House, retired Rear Admiral John Kirby. Thank you very much for coming on this morning. We appreciate it. Security Council coordinator for strategic communications at the White House, retired Rear Admiral John Kirby. Thank you very much for coming on this morning. We appreciate it.