Morning Joe - Morning Joe 8/23/23

Episode Date: August 23, 2023

Key witness flips in classified documents case

I am confident that when the law is faithfully applied in this proceeding, all of my co-defendants and I will be fully vindicated. Do you still think the election was stolen? Absolutely. Absolutely. Still? No question. No question in my mind. That was former Trump lawyer John Eastman right after he surrendered to authorities in Fulton County, telling NBC's Ali Vitale he absolutely believes in Trump's big lie. And then he told everybody, just, I promise if you just stay here and just be patient, the great pumpkin will rise behind us from the pumpkin patch.

Speaking of, the former president is expected to turn himself in tomorrow. But Rudy Giuliani has a big issue to resolve before he can do the same. We'll explain that situation. Has nothing to do. Regardless, there's a deadline. They all have to turn themselves in. Also ahead, House Speaker Kevin McCarthy again floats the idea of an impeachment inquiry into President Joe Biden when Congress returns next month. Oh, Kev, Kev, Kev, that'll really help with the swing voters, which you're doing so well with already. We'll show you.

Why don't you go ahead and just buy gold watches for all of your members that won in Joe Biden's districts and hand them to them now and say, it's been nice knowing you. We're going to show you. Because you're not going to be around next year. Keep acting this way. Kevin McCarthy's confusing comments on why it should happen. And we'll have more on the president's visit to Hawaii and the video that the far right is obsessed with.

This is crazy. You know, Willie, we're looking at the headlines from the local papers. Now, if you were following right wing media yesterday and even if you weren't, if you just a lot of it was reaching out and pulling you into your smartphones, you would think that everybody in Maui was angry with Joe Biden, that Joe Biden was having a siesta during every I know this is going to shock you. It was all garbage. You look at the local newspapers. You look at the local reports. You listen to the local people.

These weren't Democratic operatives. It was the Maui newspaper. Everybody in these newspapers glowing coverage, thanking the president for being there, saying it made such a difference that he and Jill were so empathetic. They were so giving. They gave them hope. And again, just read the papers. And it's the same thing with this Joe Biden and his sleeping deal. You actually look at the longer the longer video he coughs he bows his head like the woman next to him

he takes like four deep breaths like he's trying to catch his breath we don't know why maybe maybe he was moved and then he's like nodding looks up and yet the screaming ahead on just Biden's sleeping Biden's sleeping, Biden sleeping. He calls and now look at this. Okay, goes down. He's been traveling a lot. Look at this. He takes one to catch in his breath.

By the way, the lady next to him several times head bowed to is very moving. And you know, he's listening to the speaker. He goes, Yes, he raises his head. Oh, my God, it's the end of the world as we know it the only thing willie the only thing that we can thank god for is that joe biden was not wearing a tan suit because then we've been a total meltdown on the far right but i will tell you the people of maui and again, read, read the local coverage. Don't listen to the lies on Trumpy outlets. Read the local coverage. All incredibly

positive. Wearing a tan suit or perhaps even riding a bicycle. Even worse, Joe, that could have been a big news as well. If you're watching this this morning, you have no idea what we're talking about. It's because you live in the rational world where this was an insignificant moment, not a controversial one anyway. But you're right. It was on certain news outlets and by prominent hosts tweeting out the video and saying what's wrong with the president. Watch the video and listen to the video. What's going on? They're talking about all the people who died, at least 100 with more than 800 missing in Maui. And he's bowed his head in that moment in some kind of reflection, as you say, with other people there. So this has become, and if this is supposed to be the whataboutism for everything that's happening to Donald Trump right now,

where he's going to turn himself in tomorrow in his latest indictment in Atlanta, if this is supposed to be the whataboutism, yeah, that stuff is going on. But look at this. Joe Biden bowed his head for 20 seconds at a ceremony in Hawaii. It's pretty weak sauce, if that's what you're looking at. Well, and again, they cut clips short. They get him just when he's bowing his head. There's no context. And you're right. It's the whataboutism. Yes, Donald Trump may have tried to steal elections. He may have tried to destroy democracy. He may have unleashed an angry mob to beat the hell out of Capitol Hill cops.

He may have stolen nuclear secrets. He may have done that. But look at Joe Biden, he's so old. He's so old because he vowed to say, you know, we've all been to ceremonies where we're moved, where, and I would guess a guy who's actually lost three family members, close family members. You know, we've seen him get emotional before. And my God, again, the fact this is not about that.

This is about the reaction where, like you said, Mika, it's this what about ism. It's Hunter Biden's laptop. It's Hunter Biden. It's Joe Biden falls asleep. It's Joe Biden falls off of a bicycle. It is also shallow. It is also stupid. And it is all they have.

So they have. And I'll add to your list that many people have gone to jail for many, many years and are bankrupted and ruined because they followed the lead of Donald Trump. Well, the lead of Donald Trump and the lies, Willie,

of these channels. Well, the hosts don't even believe what they're saying. The hosts know what they're saying are lies. But I'm just saying, as we've learned, there are consequences to lies. And you can only lie to people so many times before they catch on and they know you're lying. And again, this not only infects the Republican Party and undermines Donald Trump in the long run, which it will, it makes the swing voters, it makes the independent voters, it makes the moderate Republicans all say, I'm not voting for that guy. I'm not voting for that party, even if it means I stay home. It's again, there is no this is the long this is not the long play.

This is just short, stupid stuff that always backfires against them. And the facts and the allegations in all these indictments, including the one we're focused on today in Georgia. And by the way, we're going to talk in just a second. Going back to the Mar-a-Lago documents case, the facts are so damning that you have to talk about someone else. If you want to change the subject, you have to talk about Joe Biden sleeping that you have to talk about someone else if you want to change this subject. You have to talk about Joe Biden sleeping. You have to talk about Hunter Biden. And we'll say it for what, Joe, the one millionth time if Hunter Biden committed a crime, he should be prosecuted and go to jail. That's true. But if you if you read these indictments,

they're so damning to Donald Trump and the people around him. I'd want to change the subject, too, if you were my guy. Absolutely. Along with Joe, Willie and me, we have the president of the National Action Network and host of MSNBC's Politics Nation, the Reverend Al Sharpton, and special correspondent at Vanity Fair, host of the Fast Politics podcast, Molly Jong Fast. And we're following, and this is, again, the kind of stuff that right-wing networks would try and ignore, a major new development in the classified document case. A key witness against former President Donald Trump and his two co-defendants has retracted previous false testimony.

He's flipped. Yeah. He's flipped against the president. And has provided incriminating information about the defendants after switching lawyers. A new court filing by special counsel Jack Smith's office reveals that Yusel Tavares, who served as the director of information technology

at Mar-a-Lago, changed his testimony about efforts to delete security camera video at the club last month. I'm sorry, to do what? To delete security footage that the Justice Department actually that was all this came out after he switched his lawyer to a public defender. Tavares was initially represented by Stanley Woodward, who also represents Walt Nata and several other Trump allies, and whose fees were being paid by Trump's Save America PAC.

But they won't pay for Rudy's fees. That's interesting. Anywho, according to the filing, Tavares decided to switch attorneys after he learned he was being investigated on suspicion of having made false statements in his previous grand jury testimony in D.C. When testifying before the D.C. grand jury, Tavares initially stated that he was unaware of any efforts to erase the videos at Mar-a-Lago. But yesterday's filing reveals, quote, Immediately after receiving new counsel, Trump employee four identified Yusel Tavares, retracted his prior false testimony and provided information that implicated Walt Nata, Carlos de Oliveira and former President Trump in efforts to delete security camera footage as set forth in the superseding indictment. Additionally, the filing reveals prosecutors plan to call Tavares as a witness at trial.

There's not good for him. All right. Attorney Stanley Woodward declined to comment to NBC News. So, Molly, who would have ever believed that Donald Trump would be guilty of obstructing justice other than everyone? I mean, you go back and you look at the Mueller investigation and he talks about, in the Mueller investigation, the multiple acts of obstruction of justice by Donald Trump.

But they weren't, because he was president, they weren't going to prosecute it. The multiple acts of obstruction by Donald Trump. You look at this documents case, the FBI, the DOJ, they ask for the information. Trump and his lawyers lie. They obstruct justice. This is what Barr says is what's going to end up getting Trump. What makes this a slam dunk of a case? And then we have this fascinating and may I say legally, legally explosive reality of this obstruction inside of the obstruction. And that's Donald Trump ordering his workers to delete the security footage that the DOJ has subpoenaed.

And now we've got somebody who's flipped because he must have somebody who loves him in his life saying, are you really going to jail for this guy? Because he would not go to jail for you. And you still probably will. Yeah, I mean, it's incredible stuff. And look, we saw this in the first season of this drama with Cassidy, Cassidy Hutchinson, right, where she changed lawyers and then decided she wanted to testify. Trump is you know, he's this is continual. I mean, since he has started running for president, we've seen, you know, twice impeached for indictments, plus the superseding.

And there is no I mean, this is what he does. And then conservative media and Fox News obfuscate for him and say, what about Joe Biden? What about Hunter Biden? And we saw this in 2015 with what about Hillary Clinton? Remember when Hillary Clinton was so sick and that that was why she was unelectable? I mean, they just pick a sort of trope and they keep going with it. Let's bring to the conversation NBC News justice and intelligence correspondent Ken Delaney and political investigations reporter for The Guardian, Hugo Lowell. Good morning to you both. Hugo, I'll start with you here in the studio. Let's talk about Trump employee number four, who now can identify as you seal Tavares, the I.T. guy at Mar-a-Lago.

How significant is the fact that he has now flipped and will testify, changing his testimony, by the way, but will testify to the fact that, yes, there was a request made from the top to delete the video from the servers at Mar-a-Lago. It's really significant because, you know, this obstruction that is described in the super senior indictment is coming back out now because Ucil's former lawyer, Stanley Woodward, currently represents de Oliveira who's the Mar-a-Lago guy that Walton out I was stomping around in the bushes with and shining flashlights into you know the cameras and basically Stanley Woodward has this massive conflict of interest because you know if he was to let you so Tavares's false statement stand that he wouldn't be representing him as a client because he'd be getting done for perjury.

But, you know, at the same time, he can't be representing Diolivera particularly zealously because their testimony kind of incriminates each other. And so this is a massive problem. Stanley Woodward is deeply embedded in Trump's legal team now. They're all part of a joint defense agreement. And I think this is going to cause a real problem for Trump's legal team as they get into the Mar-a-Lago case. Ken, do you expect to see more of this, which is to say a lower level employee at Mar-a-Lago saying, hang on a second, I was told

to say these things to protect the former president, my boss at Mar-a-Lago. But now that I'm seeing these indictments and the seriousness of the case and of the charges against everybody involved, including me, I'm not going to jail for this. I'm not going to lie for Donald Trump. Well, here's the thing, Willie. Walt Nauta and Carlos de Oliveira are in the exact same position as Yusel Taveras was. But for some reason, they declined to do this and they found themselves charged. And now they're stuck in a situation where they've been charged de la vera according to these documents lied to the grand jury that's a crime but he hasn't been charged why because he got a different lawyer cooperated changed his story and that became by the way the basis for the superseding indictment just to be

clear this didn't just happen this happened in july and and then we saw the superseding indictment which made the most significant allegations of obstruction of justice in this whole affair didn't just happen. This happened in July. And then we saw the superseding indictment, which made the most significant allegations of obstruction of justice in this whole affair, which is, as you said, Donald Trump conspiring with his employees, allegedly, to destroy evidence that was under a grand jury subpoena. That's a huge deal. Even Richard Nixon wasn't accused of doing that. So DeLavere is a key witness. So he gets a get-out-of-jail-free card by cooperating. But as Hugo said, Stanley Woodward represents actually Walt Nauta in this matter. Another lawyer named John Irving, who is also funded by the Trump operation, represents Carlos de Oliveira. Both men presumably would be highly sought-after witnesses by the special counsel because they're the ones, according to the superseding indictment, that actually spoke with Donald Trump and could testify that Trump ordered

the destruction of the video. Yusel Tavares can't do that. He's a third hand witness. He was the director. He spoke to the other two guys. So Jack Smith would really like to get their testimony and presumably there would be a deal on the table. But now they're a bit of a bind because they've already charged them with lying to investigators. So if they brought them before a trial jury as witnesses, they would have to acknowledge that they lied and clear all that up before they get it under cross-examination. But to answer your question, absolutely, there's more avenues for this to happen. It really is sort of like a mob movie when you have these lawyers all being paid for by Donald Trump representing witnesses. And suddenly when one gets a different lawyer, they utterly change their story and start

remembering things they didn't remember before. That's where we are. And I think we absolutely may well see more of this. OK, so that's the classified documents case, which is clearly, if it's possible, getting more serious and ominous for the former president. Now let's move to Fulton County, where former President Trump is expected to surrender at the Fulton County Jail tomorrow evening. Trump reportedly had his lawyers negotiate for him to turn himself in during primetime television hours. As The Guardian reports, Trump wanted to maximize television ratings to his benefit for his surrender to authorities in Atlanta and could extend the coverage of the proceedings by speaking afterwards in front of cameras and reporters. This is Trump's fourth indictment in as many months. In each, he has worked to turn appearances into spectacles in a, quote, effort to discredit the indictments. In Fulton County, he is one of 19 co-defendants charged in a sprawling election interference investigation. The booking process in Fulton County typically includes a mugshot,

fingerprinting and taking height and weight measurements. The Guardian reports Trump has asked his lawyers and the Secret Service to get him out of taking a mugshot. In previous cases, he did not have to take one. But the Fulton County sheriff has stated the former president will be treated like any other defendant. So, Rev, you've known this guy for a very long time. His made for TV reality TV show candidacy and presidency now rolls into the law and order is sort of part of part of the television series. And now he's demanding prime time coverage of his fourth indictment. Most would want to slink in the back. Most would want to hide from the photographers.

No, not not this president. He's he's running straight straight into the sunlight here. And wants everybody to see him indicted for the fourth time. Well, for those of us that have known Donald Trump for 35, 40 years fighting theatric, trying to at all levels become the point of attention. So certainly he did not want to be indicted. But if I'm going to be indicted, if I'm going to surrender, I'm going to make it a spectacle. And for those that would dare compete with me and have a debate about substantive issues, I'm going to overshadow that with a dramatic surrender and then make a speech like I'm a model. You know, I've told you before, Joe, if if Donald Trump had been born black, he'd have been Don King.

It's about the spectacle. It's about the show. And at some point, his lawyers need to sober him up that he's flirting with jail, because when you see people begin to flip on you, Donald, and you see people beginning to get their own lawyers, you are going to understand that the show doesn't end with applause. It could end with some of those cuffs that you go through during your surrender may become more permanent. I think the most embarrassing thing for him may be if they release his weight when he weighs in at the preliminaries on Thursday, because there's always a weigh in, Donald, before there's a fight. And, you know, because of his vanity, that will definitely be on his mind.

We say that only half kidding that he's very worried about that. Hugo, you're writing about this surrender tonight for The Guardian today. What's it going to look like? What does it look like for? This is not obviously a regular defendant. This is the former president of the United States and a showman, as Rev said. What is this night going to look like tomorrow when it plays out? So tonight he has, well, he's not going to the debate, but his aides are. They're going to be in Milwaukee. So when they're done tomorrow morning, they're going to fly back to Newark,

where they're going to get on Trump's plane from Newark, and they're going to fly to Atlanta in the afternoon, in the evening. He will then motorcade from the airport to the Atlanta jail, the Rice Street jail, this crumbling facility. And then Trump's going to go into processing. Once he's done, we're not exactly sure what he's going to do. He could come out. He can speak to the cameras right outside the jail. He might go back and do some sort of press conference at Bedminster, at the airport. It's not exactly clear. But I think, you know, fundamentally what is happening here is what has happened in each of his previous surrenders and arraignments is this is a real moment of indignity for him. And this is the

counterattack, right? He doesn't have very many moves. When he feels like he's boxed into a corner, he's going to snipe back, he's going to bite back. And this is the counterattack. This is the, I'm going to cover up the embarrassment by saying, oh, look, you know, I'm a model and, you know, play to the cameras. So I'm curious, Ken Delaney, and if you have any information on why this was set up this way, obviously, Trump wants to turn it into a spectacle. it possible that the other co-conspirators or co-defendants needed to be processed during the day and they were doing Trump after hours to try and control the situation? I'm just wondering why he would get this opportunity to have a primetime moment. It seems that the officials in Fulton County play by the book, like Mark Meadows was asking for more time. You know, no, you can't have more time. We do things by the book. And yet this seems was asking for more time. You know, no, you can't have more time. We

do things by the book. And yet this seems different. Any information on that? No, Amika, but the jail officials have made clear they run a 24-7 operation over there. So I think it's a matter of scheduling that they, you know, they they were open to doing it at any particular time. I just think it's deeply significant, though, that unlike in every other booking that we've seen with Donald Trump, it's very clear these guys are affording him no special breaks in terms of the mugshot. From all accounts, they're going to take a mugshot. We've already seen some of the mugshots of the co-defendants published. They're not flattering.

They look like mugshots. Whereas, remember, in the federal system, what the marshals did was they said, well, he's the former president. We don't need to take a mugshot. We'll just use an existing photo for the booking photo. And they spared him some of the other indignities of the booking process. In this case, as you guys were saying, it doesn't appear that that's going to happen. And so he has no choice but to lean into it. And by the way, you may have seen John Eastman, a co-defendant, the lawyer who is the one of the architects of the false elector plan, interviewed by our own Ali Vitale as he was turning himself in and leaning into the idea that he believes the election was stolen.

And my reaction to that was, what else can he say? It's actually it's actually a smart legal strategy on his part, because that's a cornerstone of his defense, is that he legitimately believed in everything he was doing and he thought he was practicing law. Well, we'll have to see whether that flies. Yeah, Molly, we're going to see a nice split screen shot of the Republican Party. And it played out in two parts, one in Milwaukee at the debate and then the next night in Fulton County, Georgia, where the other 50 percent of the voters seem to be with a fourth indictment.

Talk about what you're going to be looking for during the debates. Also, well, over that entire 24 hours, as we see again, two sides of the Republican Party. So the Republicans who are not Donald Trump, who are largely polling in the single digits, except for DeSantis, who is, you know, stuck at 16, 17, 18 percent, are going to try and get some of the oxygen back. But you see with this reporting that Trump has sort of set this up to get as much oxygen as possible. Remember, Thursday would be the day when all the debate coverage would drop. And that's the day that Donald Trump is going to be on his way to get booked. He's going to have this mugshot. I think it's very likely he will

use this mugshot for fundraising. I don't think a mugshot necessarily grows the electorate, but I think the base is going to love it. And I think he'll take advantage of that. I don't think these people have a chance. And I think that they're scared, too, to try and think of a non-Trumpy GOP future. There's just a certain lack of imagination that the rest of the Republican field has. Yeah, I think so. And Rev, again, let me just keep saying it just to keep reminding people that with gravity returning, as gravity has been returning and bad acts come back and legally

slap the bad actors in the face. And we've seen it time and again. In this case, all this talk about Donald Trump and the mugshot and, oh, we're going to sell the mugshot and, oh, we're going to raise money off of the mugshot. I don't I don't mean to second guess Donald Trump's sort of gut instincts in politics, but all he's doing is revving up a base that will be shrinking. And with every shot, can we can we show the mugshot of of that of John Eastman, who just who that's what that's that's what the lies lead you. That's followed. This is where Donald Trump takes you.

When all of the lawyers in the White House are telling you that your idea is a scam and you ignore them. And, you know, there's no case law supporting your fraudulent scheme. This is where it takes you. And only Donald Trump and Donald Trump supporters would think that this is a plus. Again, will 20% of Donald Trump supporters turn on Donald Trump? No, no, they won't. But I will tell you, Rev, another half a percent in Atlanta, another one and a half percent in Philadelphia suburbs. You know, another another three quarters of a percent in the Detroit suburbs, another half a percent in the the Milwaukee suburbs. That's the race. That's the race. It's on margins.

And every time he shows the mugshot, he tries to sell the mugshot. The mugshot goes viral. There's one more Republican that's been holding on for dear life and their support of Donald Trump that goes, oh, I just can't do it anymore.

But I don't think he seems to get that. He doesn't get it because he's always been delusional. He lives in his own world and he's trying to paint a picture of defiance rather than of one who obeys the law and that is being prosecuted wrongly. So rather than come out with the persona that I'm being misunderstood or being miscast, he's going to play defiant, which plays right into the hands of his political opponents, i.e. President Biden and those that are prosecuting him, because he doesn't understand every time that a mugshot is shown. He's saying the independent voters and to moderate Republicans, do I really want to vote for that? Do I really want my children to feel I identify with that? But he doesn't think in those terms, which is why he will be in ways, the victim of his own bombast.

Because this is not something to be bombastic about. This is very serious. And you really have to ask yourself at the end of the day, someone that is that given to trying to exploit everything as something sensational. Do you really want them back making decisions that is that could be war and peace and economy? I mean, at some point, voters are going to say, wait a minute, I might like the show, but I don't want that guy in charge of my life. Yeah. The Guardian's Hugo Lowell and NBC's Ken Delaney. And thank you both very much for being on this morning. I am sure we will see you again as we get through this momentous week. I hardly think the race is over.

You know, this is not the Yogi Berra school of political philosophy. It isn't getting late early. And so we're going to let this play out. And I think the big loser in tomorrow night's debate has already been determined. And it's Donald Trump because he didn't have the guts or the respect to show up on that stage and defend his record and advocate for the future of America. Former New Jersey governor and 2024 White House hopeful Chris Christie weighing in on the upcoming debate during an interview with Newsmax last night. Christie will be one of the eight candidates on the debate stage tonight in Milwaukee. Frontrunner Donald Trump qualified for the event,

but will not participate. Let's bring in staff writer at The Atlantic, Mark Lebovich, who will be in Milwaukee later today to cover the debate. Mark, your new piece out this morning in The Atlantic is entitled A Parade of Listless Vessels. Borrowing a recent phrase used by Ron DeSantis. And Mark, you write in part, quote, Tonight's contest will inevitably suffer from two basic structural flaws. The main point, theoretically, of a political debate is to try and persuade voters to support your campaign instead of the other candidates. But that presupposes a constituency of voters who can be persuaded by hearing a set of facts or are open to being educated. This, on the whole, is not the

audience we have here. A large and determinative and still deeply committed portion of the GOP electorate, the MAGA sector, has been more or less a closed box for seven years now. The other structural defect involves the likely self-neutering of tonight's putative gladiators. Ideally, a debate features participants who actually want to win. That generally requires a willingness to attack their biggest adversary, whether he's participating in the event or not, and especially when he holds a massive lead over them. Other than Kamikaze Christie, whom Republicans will almost certainly not nominate most of the remaining challengers on the stage seem content to play for second place running mate or 2028 so um if i get this right you're going to milwaukee to see a group of self

neutering empty vessels that maybe no one will set it up for us yeah i mean wouldn't you do the same i mean like i'm going to Milwaukee. What are you doing in Milwaukee? You see self-neutering empty vessels. No, yes, I'm going to Milwaukee. There will be a debate tonight. What I'm looking for tonight is, you know, whether there, in fact, everyone says Donald Trump steals the oxygen from an event like this. Is there any oxygen left in the Republican Party? And more to the point, are there people who are willing to listen to an argument or listen to any kind of counter narrative about, you know, what this party is and what this party

is ready to vote for? I'm dubious at this point. And I also think that, you know, there aren't a lot of voters out there or the critical mass of voters out there isn't terribly big at this point. And I guess we're going to sort of see tonight how the other candidates try to divide that up. So, Mark, obviously, Ron DeSantis's launch these months and months now has not gone quite the way he imagined it would. He started competitive and actually led for a little while in some polls over Donald Trump. Now has fallen way back as the country has gotten a look at him.

But that's mainly people like us who follow politics closely. over Donald Trump now has fallen way back as the country has gotten a look at him. But that's mainly people like us who follow politics closely. I think the DeSantis campaign is looking at tonight as a chance to sort of relaunch him and introduce himself to a wider audience. What is their hope coming out of tonight? And is there any chance that he goes a little harder, as he did with the listless vessel comment and says, you know what, Donald Trump was wrong in Georgia. Donald Trump was wrong in the Mar-a-Lago documents case. He was wrong around the 2020 election. Any chance we hear that from him? I mean, there's a chance. I think that's his only chance, frankly. I mean, I think, you know, Ron DeSantis has an extremely tall order tonight and it's a very tall order, especially since he's never done this before. I mean, this is his first televised presidential debate.

And he really has to assert himself as the main alternative to Donald Trump. People have assumed that's been his position for a long time, but he hasn't really proven it. In fact, he's been a disappointment again and again and again in the various efforts he's made to try to launch himself in this race. And so I'm really curious to see if he's up to the job. I'm also curious to see if he's serious about it and is willing to really frontally attack Donald Trump in a way that he hasn't so far. I mean, he has to show or hasn't shown to this point

whether he wants to win, frankly. I mean, he's given off a sense lately that he is content to try to, you know, win a respectable second place. You know, maybe, you know, keep whatever goodwill he had coming into this for next time and hopefully, you know, make a few friends along the way. But that doesn't seem to be something he's exceeding at very well. Is it a possibility that tonight that he, being DeSantis, becomes the target of those that want to take him on under culture wars? He has led the battle of trying to eliminate some parts of black history from studies, LGBTQ women. Even Tim Scott took issue with him about whether slavery had advantages or in some ways helped the enslaved. Will any of the candidates in your judgment take him on on that? And if so, what will that do to him? Does he dig in or does he try and modify the statements that he's made

that has really been abhorrable to many of those communities yeah i i don't see him you know backing down i mean literally his super back is called never back down what i think is more interesting is that he uh he's really bad at he doesn't think well on his feet i mean he's a pretty easy target in his own way and someone like christy who can be a real bulldog in these settings especially especially when, you know, he's planted out beforehand, can really, really run circles around someone like him because he's not a nimble debater at all. At least he hasn't proven to be so far. So, look, I mean, I think in the absence of Donald Trump, who I think is going to take a lot of incoming, whether he's there or not um you know desantis is is really the biggest

target and and i think that he's got to be ready and i think as he's shown again and again he's he's not terribly good in these situations i mean there was a moment in his debate in his last governor's uh race last november against charlie christ where he um you know he just froze for a moment up on stage and it didn't hurt him because he was ahead in the polls. But it was a bad moment for him. Yeah, just just absolutely froze. Let me ask you really quickly about one other person who is probably going to may have a breakout night tonight. And that's feedback. Here's a guy who is is young, gifted, really good at connecting with people. The crowd, good with connecting with reporters.

And despite all this and despite a past where he's criticized Donald Trump after after January the 6th and criticized Donald Trump after denying the election, he's decided to take the path of of conspiracy theory, sort of the Republican Party's RFK Jr., where he's talking about conspiracy theories involving January 6th and vaccine and September 11th and has even gotten into a bit of a scuffle with The Atlantic reporter who actually wrote down his words, who released the video, the audio yesterday. Yeah, released the audio yesterday of him saying, well, we just need to ask questions. Like 9-11, yeah, how many federal agents were on those planes?

This was the anti-Semitic trope that was going around, like the anti-Semitic trope after 9-11 where people were saying, well, how many Jews were in the towers, right? Trying to suggest this was a plot by Israel to set up Saudi Arabia. Now it's moving to, oh, how many federal agents were actually on those planes? And so the question is, why would somebody who is talented, who can connect, who could see a path forward as an alternative to the general craziness of a segment of the base here, the QAnon types. Why would he go head first into that? It's good to know now. I think it I think it says an awful lot about the party, as much about the party as it does about the guy who's chosen this path.

Yeah, I mean, look, there's a lot of voters there. There's a lot of Republican voters there at this point. I mean, we talk about how fringy, you know, these views are. You know, it's not that fringy in a lot of the parties. Now, you know, what's interesting about what Ramaswamy is doing here is that 9-11 is pretty much has been a conspiracy, you know, theory hotbed, but it's been kind of kept out of the political discourse at this point. And, you know, now it seems like, you know, this is, I don't know if it's an issue he wants to talk about, but he's willing to go there. And yeah, my colleague, John Hendrickson, you know, followed him around for a few days, taped him saying this stuff on 9-11.

He, of course, claimed to be misquoted. And then John, you know, produced the audio. And lo and behold, he said this stuff again, though, this is this is a party that is pretty it's it's very much in the thrall of these views. I mean, it's one thing when it's, you know, anti-vaxxer stuff. I mean, there was a lot of it around COVID, but this is kind of a next level thing. And when you have a new and kind of fresh and kind of compelling figure that no one really knows about on a stage of people who are maybe less so, you know, it's going to have a built-in audience. And I think that's what he's banking on. All right. Staff writer for The Atlantic, Mark Leibovich, thank you so much. We'll let you leave your camera. Go find those listless candidates.

Yeah. Listless vessels. Etsy vessels. Texas Book Depository shot there all the way to Milwaukee. All right. Very good. Thanks, guys. It's great to see you.

Thank you, Mark, and some of the best talking over each other in the business. Ever. That's what we do here. You guys are so good. Molly, let's just talk about, let's talk really quickly again about a guy who wants to win. Young guy gets into politics. Of course, he said some rational things in the past. Didn't vote until he was 30 years old.

It was critical of Donald Trump suddenly getting in the race, reading the room and deciding to start spinning up conspiracy theories about just about everything with the sort of the RFK thing, like RFK Jr. Thing like, oh, you know what? We need to ask questions. We need to ask questions about this and i just whether it's conspiracy theories about january 6th or conspiracy theories about 9-11 whether it's conspiracy theories about covid whether it's conspiracy theory i don't know i don't think he's gotten to the moon landing i think what he said on the moon landing was well we have no evidence yet to suggest that it it didn't happen something along those lines, I'm focused less on him here than what it says about the room that he's walked into

that he thinks he has to do this to get ahead. Well, it's not so different than Ron DeSantis, right? Ron DeSantis decided he needed to run to the right of Trump. And then we have Vivek, who's running to the crazy of Trump. Right.

He's taking all the sort of QAnon conspiracies. And I think he's like a little bit addicted to it at this point. So every time he says something like this, he gets sort of a you know, this is, you know, he bump in the polls. He's doing a little bit better. He's not you know, there are so many people in this contest who are polling in the single digits or even less. And here he is as sort of he's sort of rocketed on these conspiracy theories, which I think is a really bad indictment about where the GOP base is. Yeah, I'm just curious, are people going to watch? I'll watch the debate, but I just wonder it's going to be interesting, too, is just the tune in factor. Well, it's our job. These characters are not so interesting.

Watching tonight, Mika. Yeah, no, I know that. But I'm just curious if it'll. Could you tell me how it goes? Do I have to watch Vanity Fair's Molly John Fax? Thank you. It's not just defenders of democracy here at home who worry about another Trump presidency. There are similar concerns overseas. According to The New York Times, the prospect of Trump in the Oval Office is almost too upsetting to even think about for most European governments. That's especially true in Germany, a country that was often on the receiving end of Trump's diatribes. Diplomats are particularly concerned about international alliances, the future of NATO

and the war in Ukraine if the Republican frontrunner returns to the White House. Joining us now, former CIA officer Mark Polymeropoulos. He's an MSNBC national security and intelligence analyst. Also with us, MSNBC host Eamon Moaldine to talk about this as well. Mark, can you expound upon the concerns there are overseas, especially among diplomats serving abroad, but also NATO members about what would happen if Trump were to come back into the White House. Sure, Mika. And I think the New York Times article really got it right. I mean, when I talk to my old colleagues across the pond, there is this almost collective European freakout over a Trump too. And why is that? And that's because alliances really matter.

Since World War II, the United States, and really was a brilliant national security strategy built this incredible constellation of partners in Europe and Asia. This is in the political field, the military economic field and my old field, the intelligence field. And let me let me kind of expand a bit about that, because that means intelligence sharing. So if you're a German government official, if you're in France or if you're in the United Kingdom, you know, what they do when they collect intelligence is they shared it with the United States. They did so knowing they could trust us. But and this doesn't, of course, apply to other Republican candidates. This is just just Donald Trump who can't handle classified information well and, of course, is seen as pro-Russian. And so why would the British or the French, if they have critical information on Russia, why would they ever share this with us now? And I think the fear is they're going to just turn this spigot off. That's something

that worries me as a former intelligence official and certainly is of concern to our European partners. And of course, and in fascinating the context of the war in Ukraine, where most people believe that Vladimir Putin is waiting out the American election to see if Donald Trump is put back into the White House, then he's got a buddy and he can kind of go with impunity through Ukraine. And perhaps some of that support will be will be rolled back. So the focus on this Times piece, of course, is Europe. But this is a global question for sure. It is a global question for sure. I think if you look at where the Republican Party is today, you see how far Trump has moved the Republican Party. I mean, when you have people like Vivek Ramaswamy basically saying we're going to concede territory to Russia and, hey, I'm going to pick up the phone and tell

Putin I want to break this alliance up between you and Russia and you and China, and he thinks it's going to happen that easily. It just gives you a sense of where this Republican Party, which was once known for standing up to the Soviet Union, which was this pro-democracy, we're going to stand up for human rights, Ronald Reagan-esque type of national security posture, where they are. You've got Trump, who's buddies with Vladimir Putin. You've got Vivek Ramaswamy, who wants to concede territory. And you've got others who, like Kevin McCarthy in the Republican Party, who are just not as tough on Russia as they once were.

And so all of that you can attribute to Donald Trump in the four years that he was in office and how much he's changed the dialogue about Europe, about European security and and Russia. I mean, and as you lay that out, I talk to a lot of leaders in Africa, of African countries, and Russia and China has made a lot of moves in terms of trying to affect African policy, work closely with African leaders, even what's going on in Nigeria. And the rumblings are that, well, there's not a lot of opposition to Russia or China. Then what are what is the concern about what we do? Talk about the ramifications this has globally when there seems to be this kind of ambiguity in terms of U.S. policy.

Yeah. And we kind of knew what Donald Trump thought about Africa and some of the comments that he made about African countries being asshole countries. And I think that kind of summed up the Donald Trump presidency foreign policy towards Africa. And to his credit, Joe Biden has been way more engaged with Africa. They've had African leaders summit here in the United States and Washington. A big one. A big one, a very big one. And so it gives you a sense of how much the United States under President Biden has reengaged with Africa, because to your point, we are playing catch up for the last several years. China has certainly moved into Africa with heavy investments in countries. Russia, through its proxy organizations, you know, like the Wagner Group and the mines,

they've exploited that and in doing so have contributed to the destabilization of some of these African countries because the U.S. has not been present in the four years of Donald Trump. Now we're starting to see that kind of change a little bit. But to the wider question, you also have countries in the Middle East who are looking at this particular presidency of Joe Biden and hoping that who are the who are the countries that are looking for Trump? It's the authoritarians. It's the strongmen that want to welcome back a Trump presidency because they knew with a strongman they can trade with in this kind of like quid pro quo kind of transaction, not necessarily about values or human rights or interests, but more about what can I give you? What can you give me? Well, and Mark, I want to let's talk about that. traveling across the globe that Donald Trump has caused, where more authoritarian nations

and more authoritarian leaders will say, you know, Trump understood us much better. I mean, you look at what he said to President Xi about the concentration camp, saying that that was fine at Mar-a-Lago. But also now you're starting to hear, I didn't I didn't hear this 10 years ago. People go, you know, we're just we're tired of the United States lecturing us. It's much easier to deal with China. And it comes even Germany. We have Germany. And you look at the German officials being concerned, of course, in large part because of how horribly Donald Trump treated German leaders.

But also, as you know, the far right wing party there, sort of a most neo-Nazi party, is really gaining strength in Germany. And they're looking to Donald Trump and saying that part of their inspiration comes from Donald Trump, a guy who, of course, attacks Western Democratic leaders, but praises President Xi, praises Vladimir Putin, praises Kim Jong Un, talks about love letters to Kim Jong Un. presenting a very clear message to people in the West who may also, well, actually who do have the same autocratic leanings as Donald Trump. That's right, Joe. I think there is a danger, you know, in Europe, the only the only leader who would kind of welcome a return of Trump would be Orban in Hungary. You know, America does stand for something in terms of our economic and political values. And the problem with Trump, too, is that you are, you know, once again celebrating, you know, fascism and autocracy and really a pro-Russian sentiment. You know, I think about what a foreign intelligence service, a leadership profile of Donald Trump would look

like. And that's what it would say. And that is certainly not the message that the United States since World War II has really put forth to the world. And so I think there is there certainly and of course, there's growing right wing movements, as you noted, all over Europe and Donald Trump to presidency certainly would would exacerbate that. So the world watches us. I think that one thing that would be remarkable if there ever could be any any kind of data is how many actually, you know, Europeans will actually watch the debate tonight. I think a lot of them will. All right. MSNBC national security and intelligence analyst Mark Polymeropoulos. Thank you. And Eamon Mouldeen, thank you as well.