Morning Joe - Morning Joe 8/25/23

Episode Date: August 25, 2023

Trump arrested for the fourth time; Seventeen of nineteen co-defendants have surrendered 

Terrible experience. I came in, I was treated very nicely, but it is what it is. I took a mugshot, which I never heard the words mugshot. That didn't teach me that at the Wharton School of Finance. And I have to go through a process. It's election interference. You know that better than anybody. You cover it so well. Just a fantastic job, I have to tell you, for the whole of us. You did a fantastic job, Greg. But it's a very sad experience and it's a very sad day for our country.

Donald Trump talking about his arrest last night in Fulton County. He's now officially inmate number P01135809. We'll have all the new developments out of Georgia. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Friday, August 25th. For the first time in American history, a former president of the United States has taken a mugshot. Donald Trump surrendered at the Fulton County Jail yesterday where he was given an inmate number and fingerprinted. It was weighed. Trump was processed on 13 felony charges over alleged efforts to overturn the 2020 presidential election.

The former president was released on two hundred thousand dollars bond shortly after, and he's now using his mugshot to solicit campaign donations. In his first post, since his account was reinstated on X, formerly Twitter, Trump posted the mugshot and linked to his website. His campaign is also selling shirts that say, never surrender, with the picture on it, even though that's exactly what he did at the Fulton County jail. Surrender, Joe. Yeah, Willie, obviously, the the view of any ex-president with a mugshot deserved or not is certainly jarring. I'm curious, what are the papers in New York and across the country showing? It is jarring. We knew it was coming. But to see it of any president, this president, it is.

It's incredibly striking. And for a man who grew up in these tabloids in New York City, who trafficked in them his entire life, whether it was celebrity stuff, his TV shows or women or business. Here he is now on the front page of the newspaper that he's been in for most of his life, the New York Post, no headline, just the mugshot of inmate P01135809 booked yesterday in Fulton County, Georgia, on 13 felony charges. Here's the New York Daily News. Enemy of democracy showing that mugshot as well, Joe. Yeah, and it is jarring. Mika, you look through everything that happened yesterday and how we ended up last night. Again, I guess it's predictable that he's going to

end up on a positive show talking about how he's the victim of things. I'll just say there's a lot of ground noise out there, a lot of chaos, a lot of people talking and chattering. The signal, what matters the most is what happens with the law, what happens inside the courtroom. And I've got to say, again, just every attorney that's ever practiced that i've ever talked to looks at all the counts that are brought against him and i just i i've yet to find one that doesn't say he's going to get convicted on one of these charges and likely going to end up in jail unless he pleads out yeah let's bring in nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent Ken Delaney. And Ken, obviously that the headline is the mugshot, the booking, the surrendering.

But what's next? What are the legal maneuvers next? What are the dates to look for? And what exactly is this former president facing, especially with all the other different trials and and indictments that he's dealing with. But in Fulton County, there are so many different co-defendants, so many different mugshots, so many different screaming headlines. But as Joe points out, what's the main issue here facing this former president? Well, the main issue is, to Joe's point, the avalanche of criminal charges, the dizzying array of proceedings. It's hard for people to get their arms around this. Most of us have never been defendants in a single white-collar criminal indictment, let alone four. These kinds of cases, they take a lot of mental energy to to devote to defending oneself, even if you're not even not devoting substantial time to your own defense.

You have to consult with your lawyers. You have to be in courtrooms. Now, look, this Fulton County case, even though co-defendant Kenneth Cheese, bro, has asked for a speedy trial and the D.A. Fannie Wallace has said she's ready to go to trial in October. Donald Trump's not going to do that. And nobody I talk to thinks that this is going to be the first case or even the second case to go to trial among the four. But on Monday, guys, in Washington, D.C., there's going to be a hearing before Judge Tanya Chutkan. And she's going to set a trial date in the other election interference case brought by Jack Smith. And that's the one that most people I talk to think may go to trial as early as next summer, because Donald Trump's the only defendant. It's less complex. They're ready to go. And so this is going to get real rather quickly. And then just back to the Fulton County, the mugshot situation. I think what's so interesting about what happened last night is that,

you know, the Fulton County sheriff, an elected Democrat, told our Blaine Alexander that he wasn't sure until the last minute, really, whether he was going to go forward with that mugshot. Because as you recall, in all the other bookings, two federal and one in New York, authorities determined that they didn't need to do a mugshot because the purpose of a mugshot is to, you know, to be able to publicize a person's image if they flee. Well, that wasn't going to happen here. Besides, there are a million and a half photos of Donald Trump. So the federal government, the marshals use an existing photo for the booking photo. In the end, the Fulton County folks decided they were going to treat him like any other defendant in that respect. And that was what was so jarring about that procedure. The other bookings and arraignments took place in courthouses.

This one was in the Fulton County Jail, a notorious jail that is, you know, the stuff of rap lyrics. It's under federal investigation. It's a nasty place where inmates have died under questionable circumstances. Now, he wasn't in the cells, but, you know, he had to go through that place where there's signs saying, you know, inmates this way. And he had to go through the indignities. I believe I don't believe he actually was way. We're told that that his staff filled out that form in advance, which is why he's listed at a height of six, three to 15, which probably hasn't been since since the Wharton School of Finance, as he said there. But nonetheless, a sobering moment, really different from the other cases.

And whatever happens in this Fulton County case, it's a reminder that, you know, this is the one that he can't pardon himself on, that he has maybe less control of. And it's a bit of a wild card, guys. Well, it was a very sobering moment. I mean, the one of the few moments of levity provided by Donald Trump's staff, self-reported weight and height. I've stood next to him many times. I'm about six, four. Maybe he's six, one, maybe he's six'1 1⁄2", 6'2". He's a good bit shorter, but his staff reported him at 6'3", and ended a fighting weight of 215. That would be like if my staff reported me.

Describe Mr. Scarborough's appearance. He looks a lot like Robert Redford in 1974. Wildly, wildly off. So I'm not going to tell you where the over under is on Donald Trump's weigh in. But it's a good let's just say it's a good 70 or 80 pounds higher than what the staff reported. But Willie, I'm sure you would describe me as looking like Robert Redford in about 74. But I don't know about Donald Trump at 250. Which Cassidy Sundance kid era. Yeah, exactly. Right in there.

Yes, yes. Right in there. With or without the mustache, yes. I like it with the mustache. I also like the self-reporting of strawberry blonde hair. I thought that was a nice flourish as well instead of just saying blonde. Strawberry blonde. He really went for it. He really went for it. He also, Ken, used a bail bondsman like anybody

else would. Foster's Bail Bonds in Lawrenceville, Georgia, where you pay 10%. His bond was $200,000. Not sure exactly what he paid, but it was in those ways that the ways you just described once you got through the motorcade and he got there, it was pretty quick and routine in the way these things go. I'm curious about trial dates here, Ken, because Kenneth Cheese, bro, one of the co-defendants, an attorney for Donald Trump, asked, put in a motion for a speedy trial. And D.A. Fonny Willis came back and said, sure, how's October 23rd? Let's get this thing going. What how do we interpret that move? Well, that was a be careful what you wish for moment. Fannie Willis is ready to go to trial. You know, she's been investigating this thing for two years. Presumably they have not just investigated the case, but prepared their trial strategy,

considered their witness list. But here's the thing. Donald Trump is not going to go to trial in October. He's fighting. He doesn't want a speedy trial in this case. And a lot of legal experts I talked to fear that because of the number of defendants in this case in Fulton County, it really could get bogged down. There's a racketeering case that Fannie Willis is prosecuting right now where it's taken eight months and they still haven't picked a jury. So this unfortunately, this office doesn't have a great track record of getting cases to trial quickly. And, you know, the lawyers in this one are going to take every opportunity, apparently, except for Mr. Cheese, bro, to slow things down, because for Mr.

Trump, delay is victory in all these cases. And that's been his strategy. He's just hoping that he can just play this out long enough to somehow get elected president. And even if he can't make this particular Fulton County case go away, there's a good chance that the Justice Department would say you cannot continue with the prosecution of a sitting president. Meanwhile, he could make the other federal cases go away. So, I mean, we've been building towards this moment, but now it's really it's here, right, where the choice for Donald Trump is get elected president or potentially go to prison. Yeah, this is about his freedom at this point. NBC's Ken Delaney. And Ken, thanks so much as always. Let's bring

in NBC News correspondent Blaine Alexander. She joins us this morning from in front of the Fulton County Jail, where the former president reported last night. Blaine, good morning. What was it like there last night? Well, Willie, good morning to you. It was certainly very busy, very crowded, and very locked down with security. That's the best way to describe it. He actually entered through this gate that you see right here behind me. I timed it. I was standing right in this very spot, saw his motorcade zoom past. He went in at 735, came out at 756. Those were the times that the motorcade came in and out of those gates. So we're talking about 21 minutes or so on the compound, less than 20 minutes inside the building. So when you consider the fact that Willie, if you or I or really any other person were to be booked into the county jail here in Fulton County,

it can run anywhere from 12 hours or so to get in, get out, get fingerprinted, really go through much of the same process that we saw from the former president last night. So the fact that he spent less than 20 minutes inside the building is stunning. It shows just how expedited this process was. We were speaking with some people here who work inside the jail. They said this is the fastest booking that they've ever seen, and understandably so. So that's what happened on the inside. We know that he took a mugshot. We know that he was fingerprinted. He also had his booking information entered. Now, what was interesting is that we actually saw the booking information pop into the system before the former president actually made it to the jail.

So when you kind of look at that, we know that that also helped expedite the process, that his height, his weight, his hair color, his eye color, all of that was entered before he even got there. So they all just had to do the fingerprinting and other things actually inside the building. Now, what security was like here outside? We saw it growing throughout the day. We know that the street was blocked off. The jail itself was actually on lockdown, Willie. They weren't letting anybody come in and be booked. Intake itself was cleared, which is something that you never see happen in a county jail.

So the fact that intake was cleared is also very stunning. So really, all of the operations had to come to a halt in order for the president to be, former president, to be booked in and out as quickly as he was. Willie Blaine, I mean, Trump's surrender came in advance of that noon deadline today. That's the deadline for all 19 co-defendants in the case to turn themselves in. Early this morning, five others were booked at the Fulton County Jail. Former DOJ official Jeffrey Clark, Georgia State Senator Sean Still, Trump 2020 campaign staffer Michael Roman and attorney Robert Cheely. They

were all processed and released on bond. Former Coffey County elections supervisor Misty Hampton also turned herself in, but it's unclear if she, too, was released. Clark is the most notable of the group. In the final weeks of the Trump administration, the former president came close to naming him acting attorney general. That potential appointment was the subject of a tense Oval Office meeting where other top Justice Department officials threatened to resign if he was installed as AG. Yesterday, Trump's former White House chief of staff, Mark Meadows, and the former executive director of the group Black Voices for Trump, Harrison Floyd, were also booked. Meadows, who has petitioned to have his case moved

to federal court, was released on $100,000 bond. A hearing on that matter is scheduled for Monday. And Floyd became the first co-defendant to not be released after being booked. That was because he did not have a preset bond agreement. A Chicago woman who was once a publicist for Kanye West and a Lutheran pastor who is also from Illinois are the last two co-defendants yet to surrender? Blaine, I guess we expect to see them before noon today. Do you know anything about the person who's being detained right now or Mark Meadows' efforts to try and put everything off that seemed to be failing so far? Yeah, Miko, I'll start with Mark Meadows. What we saw really from him was the most vigorous pushback, one, to getting arrested, two, to even having the charges be here in Fulton County. So what was interesting is yesterday played out. Remember, a judge denied his motion, his request, rather, to stop the D.A. from arresting him.

Remember, he put out a filing. And in that filing, we saw an email from the DA's office to his attorneys, and it was pretty strongly worded, basically making it clear that if he wasn't here by Friday at the deadline, she would not hesitate to issue arrest warrants to bring him into custody. She said that the Friday noon deadline was very generous, that he's no different than anybody else who is facing criminal charges, both in this case or in Fulton County in general, and made it clear that he had no choice but to come down here and turn himself in. We got a heads up a couple of hours before he did, and sure enough, we saw him come down, turn himself in, and was released very quickly thereafter.

So where it stands in terms of removing itself to federal court, that hearing is going to be held on Monday. That's an evidentiary hearing. We're going to see that on Monday. That will kind of give us a better sense of where things are going and how that case may turn out. Now, as for what we're going to see here at the Fulton County Jail, the sheriff has made it clear that he does believe that the remaining two people, all of the 19 co-defendants, will meet this Friday noon deadline,

that they won't have to issue arrest warrants in this case, that they expect everyone to come down, surrender and turn themselves in. Mika. All right. NBC's Blaine Alexander. Thank you so much. We really appreciate your reporting. Let's bring in now our panel, former chairman of the Republican National Committee, Michael Steele, Pulitzer Prize winning columnist and editor, associate editor of The Washington Post, Eugene Robinson and MSNBC justice and legal affairs analyst, Anthony Coley. He was recently the top spokesman at the Department of Justice under Attorney General Merrick Garland.

Michael Steele, let's begin with you. So here we are in August. We have a president that has been indicted four times and the number of charges. Well, 13 in Georgia, 40 in Florida, 34 in New York and four in D.C. So about 90 actual charges against the president. And, you know, I have so many people talking about this right now. And they try to talk about the political side of it. They try to talk about what they heard on TV last night. They try to talk about what so-and-so, you know, what so-and-so's hot take was on Twitter.

But, you know, every lawyer I've talked to at this point says, the only question is, is Donald Trump going to do a deal or is Donald Trump going to end up in prison? And the only political question is, if he doesn't do a deal, a universal deal, and he ends up in prison, will the Republican Party nominate somebody and elect somebody while they're in jail? Or will they choose a different path forward? It's it's it's pretty stark. And again, these lawyers I talked to, again, Republicans and Democrats alike, you know, they they say he can pose, he can preen, he can say whatever he wants to say.

At the end of the day, the walls aren't closing in on him. The walls have closed in on him. He's got 90 indictments. And even even his biggest apologists legally have said even one of those indictments could amount to a life sentence. Yeah, I think that's all right on point. Look, Joe, we are where we knew we'd be. Once this process started, you know, so you've got people, you know, sort of like, oh, this moment. Well, I'm sorry. I factored this moment in a long time ago because this is the natural course of how it should have gone once you started down the road in these four separate indictments of holding this president accountable. From my view, you know, watching yesterday the motorcades and the security, 80 motorcycles stationed, I'm sitting to go, he lost those privileges the moment this whole thing started to unravel. And yet we still try to keep him elevated on the same level as a Barack Obama or George Bush or

former president. He's not. He is now an indicted individual. Four times, 91 counts. He's got a mugshot. He's got an inmate number. He's not. Yeah, he's a former president, but he's a lot of other former things, too. And so I think the country now has to begin to contextualize all of this. The lawyers that you cited are exactly right. The politics on this is exactly clear. And we already know, Joe, what the politics is. We're seeing it play out. Jim Jordan and his ilk are all on defense to protect and block and tackle for Donald Trump to slow this process, because in their warped mind, Donald Trump wins next year. Come hell or high water, the fixes in and state in election boards and and processes around the country are already setting it up.

So let's not be surprised and act like, oh, my God, we didn't see this coming. They've been telegraphing it and preparing for it for over two years now. So we know what they're doing on the ground in a lot of states, particularly key states like Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania. Shall I go on? We've heard these places before, right? So let us stop being surprised by stuff and get in the game

and understand exactly what Jim Jordan and all the others are doing to set up 2024. And when that happens, we'll know how to deal with it because we will have dealt with it before that moment. And so this is this for me, this mugshot. We knew Donald Trump was going to put on a T-shirt. We knew it was going to say, all right, he's going to make his bling off of it. He's going to get his cash because that's what it's always been about.

So let's factor it all in, you know, and, you know, Marjorie Taylor Greene wants to take a mugshot of herself. Don't worry, baby, your turn may come sooner than you think. All right. So let's understand the moment beyond the shock and awe of it and recognize that the politics is in play. The legal system is doing what it should do. And the American people now need to decide whether or not they want to put this man back in the White House. Yeah. And Willie, it's a great point by Michael Steele. There's nothing to be shocked about here. It's something that we've been predicting on this show for a very long time, even before he ran for president, predicting that he would run for president in 24 to try to avoid the charges that were sure to come,

especially after after January the 6th. We had no idea what was going to be happening with the Mar-a-Lago documents case while we were saying those things. But, yes, if you steal nuclear secrets, if you try to steal elections in Georgia, if you try to steal secret war plans against Iran and then you start showing them after admitting that they're classified documents and you shouldn't be showing them, this is inevitably what would happen to any other American. For those who are shocked and stunned and deeply saddened that this has happened, I guess the only question is, why do you think the rest of America has one set of laws that we all live by and Donald Trump has another? Because clearly, at least in these four jurisdictions, he does not. Yeah. And if you

try to lead an attempted coup against the United States government and overturn an election, turns out there are consequences. And here we are at some accountability for that right now. And let's not be surprised either, as Michael says, about what Republicans are doing right now. The House Judiciary Chairman Jim Jordan is now demanding documents and everything that Fannie Willis has because he wants to sift through it and make sure it's all good with him. She doesn't owe him that, but he's going to pursue that just as he did with Alvin Bragg. Anthony, let me turn to you. Obviously, you worked in the Justice Department under Merrick Garland for some time while a lot of this was developing, while these investigations were going on. What is your sense?

Let's focus on Fulton County. Let's focus on Georgia and the mugshot we saw last night. If you had to rank these in terms of seriousness for Donald Trump, they're all serious. Let's be clear about that. But the peril he faces in Georgia feels pretty extreme here. That's exactly right. And that's because let's play this out is because if assuming he somehow returns to the White House, the Georgia case is sticks. Right. It's pardon proof. That's why I think this one poses the the most critical thing against Donald Trump. But I want to go back to something that Michael Steele just says. He says the legal system is working as it should. And that's exactly right. It is working as it should. But I think the reason we are seeing such a reaction online to this mugshot is because, Willie, Donald Trump has gotten away with pushing the bounds of what is legal for so long, for decade after decade.

He's done things that are untoward and he's gotten away with it. But this photo, this mugshot is a visible sign of the system working. And I think for many millions of Americans, we just thought that we wouldn't let ourselves believe that this guy could actually be facing the penalties and the consequences that he is now facing. Yeah. I mean, it's accountability. That image right there is the beginning, anyway, of potential accountability from your former perch at justice. How does this all fit together now? We talk about these four major indictments that were that were two from Jack Smith, one in Manhattan and this one now in Fulton County. How does the next year, the next 18 months, how does this all play out from your view? Yeah, my the thing that I really appreciate about the Georgia case is that we will all get to see it live unfold on television. And this is so important because we really we've seen so many lies,

so much misinformation coming out from Donald Trump that the the facts have got to remain front and center. The lie that I heard last night, and I just want to read it if I can. This is what Donald Trump told reporters after his booking. When you challenge an election, you should be able to challenge an election. Why he left out here is that the appropriate venue to challenge elections are courts of law. And they tried that. They lost some 60 times in Georgia and across the country. They also had recounts, hand recounts in Georgia. And then what Donald Trump goes on to do is try to persuade conservative Republican leaders in the state of

Georgia to go along with his illicit campaign. To their credit, they said, no, we're not going to do this. We're going to put our country ahead of our party. We're going to stand for the rule of law and we're going to stand for democracy. Somebody mentioned Jim Jordan early. He could take. That's a good example for him to follow, those conservative Republicans down in Georgia, because they stood for what they believed in and they did ultimately what is right. Chisholm is going to treat them well. Eugene Robinson, there is still a lot of concern in the days and months to come. The Republican Party has one problem, and that is how to deal with Donald Trump, who's the frontrunner,

and yet trying to move forward with Donald Trump, who's the frontrunner, and yet trying to move forward with an election that can be won. Secondly, for the country, Donald Trump keeps pushing these lies. He keeps drumming up anger. He keeps saying he did nothing wrong. It was a perfect call. It's not like anything is over because he's had his mugshot taken. And we have learned over the years that when Donald Trump says something to believe him. And I guess my question to you is, do you think he could push his supporters again to do things that are out of bounds? Sure, he could. I mean, let's let's be honest. He did it once. Of course, he could do it again. I'm not sure. I'm not predicting that he will, that he will try to do that. But and it is kind of interesting that in the places where indictments have come down or he's had to be booked and charged,

we haven't seen big, raucous pro-Trump crowds or many crowds at all, really. And that's not all due to strict security. People haven't showed up. So that's just kind of an interesting point. That doesn't mean they wouldn't at some future date. But, you know, we really are going into uncharted waters here because the Republican Party right now does not have an alternative to Donald Trump as it looks ahead to the to the November election. You saw the debate the other night and six of the of the eight people on the stage said, well, yeah, even if he's convicted, you know, we'll still vote for him. If they're not going to run against him, to run against, including running against the fact that he's now under four felony criminal indictments in four different jurisdictions for really serious crimes, if they're not going to run against that, he's going to win the nomination. And it's an interesting question.

Will he be in jail at the time? Or it's almost certain that he's going to still be facing these legal perils at that time. And, you know, what does the party do then? And I think the answer is the party just seems to be willing, the Republican Party, seems to be willing just to go with this awful flow and put Donald Trump up as its candidate for president. You know, Michael Steele, I want to follow up on something that was mentioned a few minutes ago. The lie that Donald Trump spewed yesterday that, hey, listen, I was only challenging an election. And you ought to be able to challenge an election in America. And Willie brought up the great point. Yeah, he challenged it the way you're supposed to challenge it first, which is through the court system. Three, four, five recounts. He lost every one of them when the cyber nerds went out there.

He actually lost by an even larger tally. You look at Georgia. Georgia had three recounts, three recounts. These are the ways you challenge an election, not by setting up a conspiracy and trying to set up a fraudulent set of electors. Each one of those electors representing millions and millions of votes that Donald Trump wanted to steal from the actual electors. And and you look at again in Georgia, what he did. He didn't he didn't go through the proper channels in Georgia. And when he did, when there were the three recounts, he didn't get in trouble for doing that. He got in trouble for calling the secretary of state, you know, one of his supporters, a Republican and leaning on him saying, you have to steal enough votes for me and you need to announce it to people

that you were able to steal enough votes for me to declare me the winner of the state of Georgia. So this would be like you and me having a dispute over a car that a friend gave to both of us. You being in possession of the car, me saying that's my car taking you to court. And because I didn't like how the court decision came out, I stole the car from you. Can't do it. Or in this case, to be more to be more accurate, I had five of my dumbest friends go over to your home and try to steal the car while I stood there telling him what to do. And the cop car showed up. That's really that's really a better metaphor for what happened with Donald Trump when he tried to steal an American election. He didn't

try to go through proper channels all the way to the end. At the end, he tried to steal the car and got caught. But what's important, Joe? And I love that analogy because I think for everyday folks, this is the part that's going to make the most sense about the rest of the story. A year before the cops showed up, you were telling everybody in the neighborhood, that's my car and I'm going to take it back. That's my car. It belongs to me. I own it. I'm going to take it back. And so when you try the legal process, you go to the judge and the judge says, nope, it's his car. You can't do that. Right. And when you get on the phone with, you know, the truck that can, you know, the repo man and say, I need you to go repo my car, right? Because you're a friend of mine. I need you to go do this. And he said,

I can't repo a car you don't own, right? That you don't have title to in any shape or form, right? That's what we're looking at here. Donald Trump, a year before all of this began, was telling us if if I lose this election, it's rigged because I own this election. This is mine. I'm going to be president for as long as I want to be president. And so, America, can I say to you, if you put the man back in office in January 2025, what the hell you think he's going to be trying to do for the next four years? He's not going to say, well, thank you for the four years. I'm ready to move on. He's got enough role models globally to look at and how he can try to lock in his power. And trust me, he's not going to have a Bill Barr sitting over at AG who's going to try to shut down that back-end process. He's not going to have, you know, people who are going to stand up to him in the FBI or anyplace else.

He's going to put the sycophants in place who will nod and say, yes, sir, how much of this do you want us to take for you? And that's what we need to understand here. He still thinks he owns the car when the courts and the process has told him he doesn't. Yeah. And as Chris Christie had said, he was he was going to be trying to do this from the summer of 2020. He was already starting to prepare people for this. The election's being rigged against me because he thought he was going to lose. And Chris Christie said that to me well before he was even thinking about running for president. And Mika, in case people are trying to

keep up with this metaphor at home, Donald Trump is, of course, the person who's trying to steal the car. The repo man, Brad Raffensperger, secretary of state of the state of Georgia, who refused to get the car because the guy asking him to repo the car didn't have the proper title and had three court rulings already against him in Georgia. Look, if anyone thinks that for some reason it's going to be different with Trump and that, you know, they're believing Trump's bravado where when he shows up on right wing talk shows, you just have to look at the whole vision of last night of the entire Secret Service flying him in his plane to Fulton County and then following him down the highway. God knows how much that cost in taxpayer dollars, by the way.

He had to show up because if he didn't show up, they would come and get him. And he knew that. And that mugshot is proof that the law is where things stop for Donald Trump. One way or another, he is dealing with consequences now. It may take time, as experts will say. The law works slowly. But it is now right in front of Donald Trump's face. He has to face it. He had to show up. And that's what we saw last night. And it was a big moment and a sad moment for the nation. Florida governor and Republican presidential candidate Ron DeSantis held a rally last night at the Field of Dreams baseball diamond in Dyersville, Iowa, and was asked about the

contrast between how he was spending his night compared to Trump. What do you think about this split screen of you here in the field of dreams and former President Trump being arrested in Georgia? Well, I'm glad I'm at the field of dreams. I'm happy to be here. Wow. Boom. Wow.

Let me tell you something. That was drier than a three day old bowl of grits, Willie. Drier than a three day old bowl of grits. I mean, come on now. Not exactly a Kevin Costner performance out there at the Field of Dreams. No. Why did he do that? Not a James Earl Jones moment.

No. Oh, and everything. It reminds us of what we once were and what we might be. Again, I am here and he is there. It is pretty. Thank you. You know, good night, Joe. I know you guys have had many of the similar conversations that I've had with Republican

friends and Republican sources who, let's say, six months ago were sure he was the guy that they were going to move beyond Donald Trump. Ron DeSantis just won by almost 20 points in the state of Florida, this key state. He's done a good job in their view, got them through covid, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And he's the guy. And we're turning the page on Donald Trump. And as this has gone on and particularly after the debate two nights ago, they all went, OK, who else is out there? Maybe Vivek. Maybe they're just still searching. Maybe Glenn Young will descend from the heavens. Yeah, a lot of people did watch.

But I would say the level of disappointment from Republicans who want to go somewhere beyond Donald Trump in Ron DeSantis has now reached a well, it's reached its peak, I would say. Yeah, exactly. I will say this, Willie. It was always fascinating to me that while people from 49 states were talking about how great Ron DeSantis was and how he was going to be the great hope for the Republican Party. It's very fascinating that Republicans in Tallahassee, Florida, that did not work for him. Whenever I called him up, I said said what's he like they'd be like kind of weird kind of weird don't know how he's going to do in those early states they were very because they had dealt with him very again it just again might lack uh the touch let's just say the the the common man touch there yeah like you know I mean nobody predicted that he would point at a little girl and tell her she was killing herself while she was drinking a Slurpee. But those are some sometimes we just we just get those special gifts from from the political guides.

But yeah. And some people are saying he can still win. I just I don't know. I don't see anything can happen. Anything can happen. Exactly. But let's talk really quickly because Mika brought this up. 13 million people. I mean, it wasn't Trump levels, but 13 million people watched the debate. And I will say a lot more people were talking about it yesterday than I was expecting. Yeah. And and a lot more people were talking about Nikki Haley. I know that in in hardcore Republican circles, they like the fact that

Vivac was rude and insulted people. They thought that was really cool and that he was petulant and he spouted conspiracy theories. So a lot of people love that. I think Republicans that want to win elections and that sort of come from the Republican Party of Ronald Reagan and what I was when I was inspired to join the Republican Party, really impressed by Nikki Haley. Yeah, I heard some of the same things. I would say that people who like Donald Trump also like Vivek Ramaswamy. They liked his what they perceived as a combative style. I would say again, he did say that climate change is a hoax. He did say that we should cut off all aid to Ukraine and we can go down the list and other conspiracy theories.

And by the way, that he would issue a preemptive pardon for Donald Trump in all of this. So perhaps that's why Trump supporters liked him. And he knew that he pushed all those buttons. But to your point, it was Nikki Haley who did seem like and along with Chris Christie and Mike Pence to other degrees, the adult in the room, at least on that stage. And perhaps she will get she's still way, way behind in the polls, as most of them are. But perhaps she will get another look from people looking for an alternative here. Let's bring to the conversation NBC News Capitol Hill correspondent Ali Vitale here in studio with me doing a great job hosting way too early this morning.

Good to see you. I got a treat in person. Yeah, it's good to see you. So let's talk about that, that debate and rolling out of that and what you're hearing, maybe even from your reporting among people on Capitol Hill about, you know, the private conversations we all have. They might say out loud that they like Donald Trump behind the scenes. They also are praying for an alternative to emerge. Did anyone like what they saw on that stage? Those prayers aren't getting answered after that debate, mostly because I think the sense that all of us had in watching it in Milwaukee, and it was echoed by my conversations

that I was having with electeds over text and in person, is it sort of felt like everyone there was just competing for the scraps while the guy who was actually at the front was eating at the main table. And I think that it's really hard to have a debate that feels untethered from the reality of the polls and of the state of the race. It's hard to take that seriously because Trump is so far ahead. He doesn't have to face any of his opponents. Now, there are some people who said to me, look, it was a great thing for all of those people because they weren't able to be deterred from their message by Trump, who sucks the oxygen out of the room. They were able to get a good look from the American public. Fine. But there's still the reality that he is the person

leading the pack. I do think the one thing I seized on, though, from that debate was something that Florida Governor Ron DeSantis said at one point. He said, well, this is not an election that's about January 6th. And I just don't think that I could agree, disagree more because every conversation that I have leads back to the 2020 election, people who believe it was stolen despite the fact that it wasn't, and the ways in which Trump has been able to remake and remold the party around that. I know that most of the people on that stage don't want to contend with January 6th because it's not politically expedient for them to go after Donald Trump or sell out the Constitution, but it's very much a central premise

of what's at stake here. And it certainly is going to be in the general as we've watched Biden make that the centerpiece of both 2020 and likely 2024. Well, speaking of Joe Biden, in response to that first Republican primary debate, the Biden Harris 2024 reelection campaign out just this morning with a new ad. It's titled These Guys. It highlights the issue of abortion, a topic candidates spent the most time actually discussing on Wednesday night. Here is a first look at that ad. Reproductive health care decisions are among the most personal a woman will ever make.

They are choices that should be made by you and your doctor. And the last people who should be involved are these guys. First of all, I'm the one that got rid of Roe v. Wade. Florida Governor DeSantis quietly signed into law one of the nation's strictest abortion bans. Governor DeSantis, you signed a six-week abortion ban in Florida. I believe in a culture of life. If I were president of the United States, I would literally sign the most conservative pro-life legislation that they can get through Congress. Do you believe in punishment for abortion? Yes or no?

As a principal. The answer is that there has to be some form of punishment. For the woman? Yeah, there has to be some form. President Biden and Vice President Harris are determined to restore Roe v. Wade, and they will never allow a national abortion ban to become law. As long as they are in office, decisions about your body will be made by you, not by them. That spot will run for two weeks on digital, be online on your phone in Arizona, Georgia,

Michigan, Nevada, North Carolina, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. Obviously, Ali, the issue of abortion was devastating to the electoral hopes of Republicans in the midterm elections. It's going to be a big factor again coming up in 2024. And those candidates on the stage the other night were all over the place. Tim Scott said, I want a federal law. We cannot allow abortion to be taking place in blue states either. So basically making the case against federalism. Yeah. And when he said that he would sign literally the most conservative bill that he could find, that was in an interview with me where I at one point said, OK, is that six weeks? And he even agreed that that was on the table. Even Ron DeSantis, who signed that bill,

says he was proud to sign it, but signed it in the dead of night in Florida, couldn't say on the debate stage that he wanted to sign a federal six week ban. So all of them are being pushed to the right here. Trump is perhaps one of the people who's a little bit more, we could say, liberal on this issue, even though it's not liberal at all. But this is a problem that I hear about often from Republican operatives. The fact that you've got to get through a primary on this issue and you have to sell it for the evangelical voters that come out in mass. But then you have to pivot to a general where this is a position that is out of step with the six and 10 Americans who say abortion should be safe or legal in all or most cases. And I was just in Ohio two weeks ago when they did that referendum.

The fact that they had three million people come out in the dead of August for an election that was relatively spontaneously announced really is a blinking warning sign to Republican operatives that I talk to in Washington who look at this. Maybe it's not a problem for right now, but it's definitely a problem for six months from now, because the thing I keep hearing is Republicans are the dogs that caught the car on this. Maybe it's not a problem for right now, but it's definitely a problem for six months from now, because the thing I keep hearing is Republicans are the dogs that caught the car on this. And now they're going to get run over by it electorally. And one group that understands this one group of people, Gene Robinson, Wall Street Journal editorial page writers, they have a they have a op ed today or they have an editorial today talking about Nikki Haley's GOP debate truths. And it says if Nikki Haley gets a bump in the polls Wednesday,

one reason will be that she actually respected viewers by telling the truth. The former South Carolina governor insisted, brace yourself that consent in consensus policymaking. Can't we all agree that we should ban late term abortions? Can't we all agree that contraception should be available? And then the Wall Street Journal goes on to say abortion advocates won referendums last year in Kansas of all places by 18 points. Then Michigan passed by 14 points a state constitutional amendment going beyond Roe v. Wade. And then the editorial board for The Wall Street Journal goes on to say her honesty didn't stop there. Donald Trump added eight trillion dollars to our debt. You look at the 24 budget Republicans asked for seven point four billion

earmarks. Democrats asked for two point eight billion and then went on to tell the truth about Donald Trump. We have to face the fact that Donald Trump is the most disliked politician in America. So just generally, the Wall Street Journal really does nail it here that it was Nikki Haley who actually told the truth, decided, hey, maybe I'll try this in the debate with all this crazy conspiracy theory talk going on. And she did stand out. She gave a lot of older Republicans a reason to hope. Also, on the abortion issue, Nikki Haley's right. Unless they figure out a consensus on abortion and get more in line with where the American people are, which really is somewhere like in Europe, somewhere between 15 and 20 weeks, they're going to keep losing elections. And Nikki Haley seems to be the only Republican on the national stage that understands that.

Certainly the only one who's willing to say it. I mean, and good for her. Good for her that she recognized objective reality. However, right after that, wasn't it Mike Pence who said that consensus is the opposite of leadership or something like that? I don't quite understand what that means in the context of how government works, how you get any piece of legislation through. There's got to be a certain level of consensus. And there is no consensus for these strict abortion bans that much of the Republican base seems to want, or at least the candidates certainly think that that's what the base wants.

So they're going to keep giving it to them. This really is the issue on which I think the Republican Party, one of the issues on which they fooled around and they're finding out that this is a powerful issue that is bringing people out in red states to vote for Democrats and to vote for enshrining the right to abortion in state constitutions. And this could be a huge issue in a lot of states in 2024, where abortion rights advocates are able to get the issue on the ballot. It's going to be a huge factor.

NBC's Ali Vitale, thank you so much for coming on.