Morning Joe - Morning Joe 8/31/22

Episode Date: August 31, 2022

DOJ says Trump team likely 'concealed and removed' classified docs at Mar-a-Lago

So let me say this to my MAGA Republican friends in Congress. Don't tell me you support law enforcement if you won't condemn what happened on the 6th. Don't tell me. Can't do it. For God's sake, whose side are you on? Whose side are you on? And now it's sickening to see the new attacks on the FBI, threatening the life of law enforcement agents and their families for simply carrying out the law and doing their job. Look, I want to say this as clear as I can. There's no place in this country, no place,

for endangering the lives of law-a-lago we will have much more on the president's remarks which came just hours before we got stunning new details overnight about why the Justice Department felt it had no choice but to seize classified documents from the president's Florida estate and club, including evidence that some of the documents were likely moved and hidden. We'll have the many new revelations from the late night court filing. Also this hour, remembering Mikhail Gorbachev, the final leader of the Soviet Union, a reformer who lifted the Iron Curtain and helped to end the Cold War. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Wednesday, August 31st. Along with Joe, Willie and me, we have the host of Way Too Early

and White House bureau chief at Politico, author of The Big Lie, Jonathan Lemire, president of the National Action Network and host of Politics Nation, Reverend Al Sharpton, and Washington bureau chief for USA Today, Susan Page. And in light of the new revelations, Joe, that happened through the GOA, DOJ late last night, President Biden's remarks seem to really be cutting through. Well, they really do. And it's always fascinating. By the way, this is one of those mornings I would have just absolutely loved to hear your father's take on Mikhail Gorbachev. I know, obviously, you knew him and dealt with him. We do have David Ignatius, a good friend of your dad's, who's going to be on here.

Also, Admiral Stravitas, obviously someone that your father had great respect for, going to be here talking about that as well as things turning around in Ukraine. It's pretty extraordinary. But, you know, Willie, there's a time in a game, basketball game. You can just see it on the court happening, football game, soccer and in politics. I've always noticed it in politics. I'm sure you have, too, where momentum shifts in a very significant way. And again, we're still we're still a long way off until the elections. I'm not saying that Republicans aren't going to have a historic year. They should. But last night was Joe Biden and the Democratic Party off their heels for the first time, I think, since 2020 and actually leaning in,

going on the offensive, telling Republicans, Joe Biden saying, not only am I not for defunding the police? I'm not for defunding the FBI. And the words that will break through to independents who are looking at this MAGA Republican Party and understanding they're so disconnected from the most basic of American values when it comes to patriotism, whether it's January the 6th or threatening the lives of law enforcement officers and their families for just carrying out a lawful search. That question that just rings in the ears of so many Americans, for God's sake, whose side are you on? And it's interesting. He addressed he addressed these words not to Republicans across the nation, not to super MAGA Republicans across the nation, but to those in Congress, to Republican leaders. You know, it used to be that somebody would say something on the left or the right. That would be a crackpot statement. And then everybody rushing go, oh, my God, look what all Democrats are saying. Oh, my God, look what all Republicans are saying. And it would be some insignificant figure. Joe Biden is now telling the truth that Americans are starting to understand that this extremism,

this is coming actually from leaders. This is coming from Republican members of Congress who are calling law enforcement officers the Gestapo, who are calling law enforcement officers communists, Republican leaders and thought leaders calling law enforcement officers wolves who want to devour you. Defund the FBI? No. Defund police? Absolutely not. And at the same time, Joe Biden is giving a speech to Main Street, America, to Main Street, Pennsylvania, about backing the FBI and backing law enforcement officers. And just how crazy the Republican Party's done and doing. What's Donald Trump doing? He is circulating QAnon conspiracy theories on social media, QAnon conspiracy

theories on the same day Joe Biden is saying, bring it in, Republicans. You all are being extremists. Come on. This is their turning point. This is this is a turning point. And all of those people that have been lying about the DOJ and FBI on this search, we're going to get to the news in a second. That's going to change as well. It's funny, Alex Corson, our our EP before said that he had read a tweet yesterday that said the news was so bad last night that somebody had tweeted out. All right. Pay attention, because now we're going to hear a lot about Hunter Biden's laptop or caravans coming in from Mexico. And sure enough, on cue. Here we go.

New York Post talking about those caravans that for some reason only come up every two years around election time. And by the way, John Heilman called me the morning that you remember the Trump people like actually literally every two years around election time or when Donald Trump's in trouble every two years. I mean, you can you can write that story every day, every two years, because there's chaos on the southern border. And we've been saying it here. But, you know, Willie, it's it's it's just like, you know, John Heilman called me up the morning that the word got around that Trump people said, hey, you know what? I'd be quiet. This stuff is a little worse than we expected at Mar-a-Lago. Don't get too front out front there. Suddenly this IRS lie that morning, he said, you see what they're doing now? They're spreading lies about IRS agents going around with automatic weapons, shooting people in middle America because they've got to change the subject. That's what's happening before our eyes.

And you see it right there on the post. You'll see it all over right wing media today. Joe, I'm going to quote you for months now. Freaks, weirdos and insurrectionists. You've been advising Democrats talking about Republicans. This is who they are. This is what they're doing. And the president effectively was saying that yesterday in different terms, perhaps.

But that's what he was saying. He was like tapping into something that is really out there. And his boost in the polls is coming from independents who are watching what's happening in the country and saying, no, it's it's not OK. It's extreme to defend an attempted coup of an American presidential election. No, it's not OK to force a 14 year old girl to have her rapist baby. No, it's not OK to take boxes and boxes of classified documents to a country club and then lie about them and not turn them over when asked. That is extreme. And so that is why you're seeing these conspiracy theories.

And as the president pointed out last night, it's coming from the top. It's not just coming from QAnon, which you're right. Now, President Trump is just directly amplifying QAnon messages, not even through subtext or innuendo. He's just amplifying them. It's coming from senators. It's coming from Chuck Grassley talking about IRS agents with AR-15s kicking down the doors of small business owners. It's coming from Lindsey Graham saying there's going to be violence in the streets if you do anything to Donald Trump around these classified documents. So it seems, Jonathan Lemire, that Joe Biden, and maybe we'll

see more of it tomorrow night in that primetime speech, he is stepping into this place right now where a lot of Americans are, where things seem like they're going off the rails on one side of the aisle. And think of the different places, the split screen by these two men right now. Donald Trump, you know, headlines growing worse by the day about what the DOJ found at Mar-a-Lago. Republicans left to scramble, to try to defend that or in this case, distract, try to deflect, talk about something else. They see the polls, their Senate candidates and a number of states are in trouble. They're worried also now about their ability to flip the House. And then you have President Biden, who is quite simply on a roll. Democrats have momentum. They have the win at their back, a series of legislative wins, some bipartisan, some Democrats only.

And there's just a new energy. White House aides I spoke to say the place feels revitalized. They feel like as we hit Labor Day, a stretch run of this campaign, Democrats love where they are and they are painting the Republicans as being out of touch with mainstream Americans on a number of issues, abortion, guns. And now yesterday we really heard him forcefully say defensive police and law enforcement. Republicans aren't doing that either. And then tomorrow night, which is sort of really the kickoff, Democrats say, to this midterm stretch run. He'll talk about how Republicans are out of step with American values and democracy itself. It's a primetime speech being delivered at Independence Hall. The stakes are big for this president.

And Democrats feel like this is the moment where they make the case to American people that the Republican Party does not represent American values. Well, and Donald Trump's Republican Party doesn't represent a hell of a lot of Republicans. They're going along for the ride. I understand that. Please, I mean, don't tweet at me. I mean, I hear it from, but Rev, Jonathan just talked about guns and abortion. There used to be a very clear line on that debate. Now Republicans are waking up to see that they've got a party that is electing candidates in primary contests that are bragging about making a 14-year-old girl who is raped by her uncle having a forced birth in the state of Michigan. That's the Republican nominee for governor there. We have a 10 year old girl being raped in Ohio and having to flee the state before authorities there compel her to have a forced

birth and not even let her parents or preacher or mental health counselors or doctors have any say at all. It's just a forced birth on guns. Eighteen year olds with metal problems are able to walk in and buy weapons of war and gun down little children. These are issues that a lot of Republicans, a lot of NRA members, actually, if you talk about universal background checks or some of these other safeguards, they oppose. Yet the Republican Party takes even more extreme positions.

There are pro-life people, and I know you've heard from them too. So many pro-life people that I've talked to this summer since Dobbs said, yeah, I So many pro-life people that I've talked to this summer since Dobbs said, yeah, I consider myself pro-life. But no, no, this is so extreme what this Republican Party is doing. And then you got Willie talking about Americans, swing voters, independents, suburban Republicans going, OK, wait a second. Why is my party defending a coup attempt against the United States government stopping a peaceful transition? Why is my government actually cheering on people who beat the hell out of cops on that day?

Why is that OK for them? And then, of course, the 10 year old girl, Donald Trump. And now this is the latest. The Republican Party. It's crazy. The Republican Party has put themselves in a position where they have to defend a former president stealing boxes of classified information. And by the way, they don't have to do this. They just are. They can't stop themselves. It's what Ben Shapiro and Brit Hume and everybody

else is starting to talk about now. They don't have to defend them, but they are going down with the ship. I think that that is why what President Biden did yesterday was so important because all of what you said is clear to most Americans. They just needed someone to bring it together and say what he said. What has happened to us? I thought it was a brilliant delivery from him. And as much as I am on him and will continue to be about police reform to make them the defund the FBI flips this whole thing of painting everybody else's defund the police that disagree with them. They're the ones that are not about law and order. They're the ones that have brought this kind of lowering the standards of the presidency. The way he laid it out yesterday, I thought, was absolutely what was needed because it was something that everyone knows from Democrats to independents to real Republicans, but it needed to be articulated, and it was from the largest bully pulpit in the world,

and that was the president of the United States in a way saying, wait a minute, look at who we are becoming. We can't let him make us like that. And the danger of Donald Trump by normalizing all that you outlined accurately, Joe, is he is beginning to normalize it where we are all acting like this is all right. And I think we got a very much needed wake up call from Biden yesterday that this is not who we are and who we want to be. And that is the backdrop. Now, Susan Page, I'm going to have you help me frame out what happened overnight, this pretty staggering new revelations from the Justice Department's investigation into former President Donald Trump. Several major headlines emerging from the DOJ's midnight filing in response to Trump's request

for an independent review of the materials known as a special master following the search of Mar-a-Lago on August 8th. The DOJ argues that appointing a special master quote is unnecessary and would significantly harm important governmental interests, including national security interests. The DOJ points out government review teams have already finished their work and a third party reviewing the documents would only impede its ongoing criminal investigation. The 36 page filing also reveals the Justice Department sought a search warrant for Mar-a-Lago after obtaining evidence that highly classified documents were likely moved and hidden and that Trump's representatives had falsely claimed all sensitive material had already been returned.

The DOJ filing states, quote, the government also developed evidence that government records were likely concealed and removed from the storage room and that efforts were likely taken to obstruct the government's investigation. It goes on to state, quote, three classified documents that were not located in boxes, but rather were located in the desks in the 45 office were also seized. The DOJ also included a picture of the documents seized during the FBI search of the former president's Florida estate, several of which are clearly marked top secret. In all, the filing says more than 100 unique classified documents were seized. And some of the documents were so sensitive, FBI agents and DOJ attorneys needed additional security clearances to review them. The DOJ filing reveals the FBI recovered twice as many classified documents than what was turned over by the Trump team, casting doubt over their claim that there had been a diligent search following the grand jury subpoena in May.

Susan Page. Go ahead, John. No, I should say, this is just amazing. And Mika, top secret documents moved after the DOJ asked for them to be returned. Not good. Hidden, concealed. Look at that. Top secret. I see the most secret documents that the government has, the highest classified rating right there at Mar-a-Lago. And this is this is it appears because the DOJ wasn't going to release this.

But, you know, the court, a Trump appointed judge pushed for this. And it seems that every everything is breaking against Donald Trump. There's they're just he can defend himself. But bottom line is, Mika, if you take top secret documents out of a government facility and then you lie to the Department of Justice about them. You have your people moving top secret documents out before a search comes. You tell them you've given them everything and you haven't. This isn't just Donald Trump who could be facing serious consequences. His lawyers and other people handling those documents, other people representing to the FBI and the DOJ that they've given back all the documents while hiding them at Mar-a-Lago, according to these pleadings. That means quite a few people now in trouble for possible obstruction charges.

Susan Page, from what we know so far from this, your thoughts. So this is storytelling by legal filing. You know, it's been legal filings do not always give us this kind of detail. It is they're not always written in this kind of accessible language. They don't always include a picture that tells the story. But this is clearly the DOJ playing hardball with Trump and his legal team. If they hadn't filed their own suit in this case, the DOJ might not have had the opportunity to respond. There's this very detailed timeline, information about the documents that they found, contrasting that with the assurances that they

received from the Trump team. This really undermines many of the basic arguments that former President Trump and his people have been making about what was behind the need to get a warrant and to do a search on their own and not to trust the Trump team to turn over the documents they had promised to turn over and were obliged to do so. Let's get more on this from NBC News Homeland Security correspondent Julia Ainsley and MSNBC legal analyst Danny Savalos. Julia, I'll start with you just looking through this 36 page filing. It's not just what the president took back to Mar-a-Lago. His team took back to Mar-a-Lago. It's that they lied about what they had at Mar-a-Lago. And in fact, according to this filing, obstructed the Justice Department, the FBI's efforts to get these documents.

At one point in the filing, it talks about the attorney for President Trump, former President Trump, Christina Bob, as being so uncooperative as to lead agents to suspect the Trump team might be obstructing the investigation. What stood out to you as you read through this last night? That's right, Willie. I mean, this is the most significant rebuttal that we've seen from the Justice Department to the arguments made by Trump's legal team. I think we're learning more from this than we ever did from the warrant or that redacted affidavit that we're all waiting for so roughly last week. Now we're learning that this is not just a matter of the president taking back records that should have been stored in the

National Archives. In fact, they go so specific as to say that in a footnote, that this is a matter of taking classified documents where they should not be and obstruction. And they talk about how they believe that some documents were taken from a storage room, that they were first told, look, here's everything. The Trump lawyer signed it, said they had handed everything over. Then they had significant information that there was still more left behind. They were told anything left behind would be in a storage room. That's also what the Trump legal team said, that they didn't need to go all over the premises. They said just alone in that storage room, there were 76 documents with classified markings on it. But that it went beyond the storage room.

As Mika points out, it was in the office, the 45 office, that little mock oval office that President former President Trump has created there at Mar-a-Lago. And so they were able to show that these documents have been moved, clearly pointing, they believe, to obstruction of this investigation. Also, the attorneys claiming they'd handed everything over when they had not. And the other thing that's standing out to me, Willie, is just the overwhelming amount of cooperation that they have from witnesses inside Mar-a-Lago that were able to provide all of this evidence that led to this search in the first place. There seems to be a lot of people cooperating. And one last thing on witnesses. It seems that some of these documents in the possession of the former president could have outed human intelligence.

Americans working as spies, as CIA agents, as human informants around the world, not just Americans, but other internationals who we have cooperating with us in very dangerous parts of the world. And if they're outed, that could put their lives at stake and the national security of the United States at stake. And that is why this is so serious. And that is why the Justice Department made this very lengthy rebuttal. Remember, they asked for more pages just to go through all of these arguments. Now we're learning more of that here. And I would just encourage anyone to take a look for themselves. Those pictures really do tell a story. Yeah, they're striking. Danny, I know that Donald Trump doesn't exactly have a dream team of lawyers with him. But the more they file, the more they ask for a special master, an independent review of the documents,

the more the Justice Department puts out in public of potentially crimes that they've committed. Now we've seen the documents. Now we're seeing in these 36 pages of these efforts of obstruction by the Trump legal team. So it seems to me that Donald Trump and his team keep opening themselves up to more exposure the more they ask for. When DOJ asked for additional pages to respond in this filing, I was surprised. I didn't understand it because I thought, well, there's a 20 page limit. You don't normally ask for more pages unless it's really important. And in this case, it seems DOJ had already won. They had their filter team review the documents. And let's face it, the filter team is also the DOJ.

So they've already had time to review everything. Why ask for additional pages? Why even oppose the appointment of a special master? How could it even hurt DOJ at this point? Well, now I understand. Two major reasons. Number one, DOJ wanted to put out its definitive piece on the bad behavior of the Trump team in returning these documents. And part two, DOJ wanted to make it clear we weren't kidding. These documents are really, really top secret. See Exhibit A, the picture you're looking at where they are almost comically marked top

secret SCI on the cover. You can't make a mistake about these documents. So that is the reason why and to put out an argument against the appointment of a special master that, look, these documents are so secret we couldn't even review them without getting clearance. So we the special master could compromise things even more and delay the investigation. So DOJ putting out a strong argument. One thing I just want to add, watch the space where DOJ argues about standing. Standing is a constitutional argument. It's not sexy, but it is quietly the reason that courts love to dismiss cases, including the Supreme Court. It asks the constitutional question, is this even any of your beeswax to begin with? And the argument is, look,

Trump is no longer the president. He doesn't have any interest in these documents. He's essentially a private citizen saying, hey, I own these government documents and I want them back. Not a strong argument. A lot of people are going to run right over that argument in the government's brief. But it is quietly the government's most powerful argument for this judge to dismiss this case entirely. So, Julie, if we can bring the DOJ photo back up, you can weigh in if you want about Mar-a-Lago's questionable carpet choices. We should also note that just off screen here, there is a picture of a Time, part of the same photograph, next to these top secret documents, a Time magazine cover, which is sort of the ultimate Trump tableau. But I want to ask you as to what happens next. We're supposed to have a hearing, I believe, tomorrow. There's the Trump cover. Cover tomorrow about this special master. How do we think

this revelation from overnight could lead to that? And what might a special master help? How could that help or hurt Trump's cause? Well, the other thing we also have between now and that hearing is a filing from the Trump legal team that's expected by 8 p.m. tonight. So that will be another document we'll be looking into. How do they defend themselves against this very lengthy, as Danny pointed out, you know, definitive rebuttal of what the Trump team tried to posit as the reason for a special master, that they somehow were just the victims of this giant sweep that had included so many of Trump's personal documents that should have been privileged.

How will they now defend that? So we're really going to look at that tonight. And then you're right. We'll have this hearing tomorrow before Trump appointed judge. And she has already said that she had a preliminary intent to grant the request for a special master. How will she now oversee this hearing? What arguments will we hear? And will she go ahead and make her decision early? And we may even find out tomorrow how she will weigh in on this. Now, after reading this, you realize just how much this could delay the process or even impede the process if a special master is appointed. One thing they point out as well is that when the 15 boxes that were originally handed over for Mar-a-Lago came into the possession of the Justice Department and later to the National Archives, there was no

argument about attorney-client privilege there. And they think that really there's very little that former President Trump needs back, that this really is just a claim being made to try to slow things down and kind of blur and confuse the American people about what's really going on here, that these are very sensitive documents that should be in the hands of the Justice Department and not in the hands of a special master and certainly not back at Mar-a-Lago where they could be stuffed into a drawer in a private club or residence. Well, and there's no confusion about that. And Donald Trump, the former president, doesn't even deny that he had the documents. NBC's Julia Ainsley and Danny Savalas. Thank you very much. Joe, it really feels like the DOJ is almost saying, and I just want to stay right in the space where we are with what we know. You know what? You give us no choice but to show you more about what we have.

And every time we learn more, it appears to box the former president in. And what is the former president doing? He's posting on his little social media, his own personal social media engine that he created QAnon stuff. Yeah, well, you know. There's a reason why people close to Trump started warning Republicans when they were getting out there and calling the FBI the Gestapo and calling them communists, calling them wolves, saying they're going to come after you next. There's a reason why Trumpists warned these Republicans quietly, hey, this is worse than you think. You need to just kind of be quiet and back up. And so then, of course, they started conspiracy theories about killer IRS agents. They they are now talking about caravans. They'll talk about Hunter Biden's

laptop and, you know, and, quote, QAnon conspiracy theories, because, Rev, the news doesn't get any better for the former president. Those Trump allies were right. This is bad stuff. Trump's lawyers make a move, get his special master involved. The DOJ is like, do we really have to do this? And they put all of this out and you see that actually the story is even worse than what we first heard about them concealing documents, moving them from storage spaces when they thought the search was coming and having, I think, keeping about half of the documents, if I read it right, keeping like half of the documents

that were requested and lying to the FBI, lying to the DOJ. This gets no better. If Trump had any defense, he sure as hell wouldn't be churning out QAnon conspiracy theories while these pleadings were going on. He'd be talking about this case. But he hasn't. There is no defense. Well, for those of us that have known Donald Trump and fought with him and against him for years, clearly, if Donald Trump thought he had any defense, he'd be out there very loud and very boisterous trying to bring that forward. Clearly, the fact that he's going to these other theories and not addressing doubt is he projected himself as the one that was going to preserve in this country exactly what it now clearly is showing that he is not. Don't forget, he started his political career questioning the birth of a sitting president, Barack Obama, with birtherism, that this guy is not real and that they were the party of law and order and that they were going to make America great again.

How do you go from making America great again to defund the FBI? How do you go from make America great again to saying that you're going to have top secret documents at your residence and act like they were your personal property? He's undermined his own theme. And the hypocrisy is glaring. And I think that President Biden did a great job bringing that clearly to the American people. You can't be a fraud. And that's what Donald Trump has become to even those that were giving him the benefit of the doubt. And, you know, Willie, I'm going to I'm going to do a Harold move. Harold Ford move here. I agree with what Mika said. And I agree with what Danny said in this respect. Danny brings up a great point. What's the standing here?

These aren't his documents. Why does he even have standing to suggest that he can keep these documents? The documents belong to the United States government, which leads to what Mika said, which is. Donald Trump's never given any excuse for having top secret documents. He's never said, oh, I needed it because of this or I needed it because of that. Rudy Giuliani, Kevin McCarthy, Newt Gingrich, all the MAGA extremists in the Republican Party calling the FBI fascists, calling them communists, calling them the Gestapo. Not one has stepped forward with an explanation why a former president would illegally take top secret documents from a government facility to his home. Not once. There is no reason. There is no reason. No, there's no defense for it. And even just based on the publicly available information, we know what happened here. I mean, we'll see what the Justice Department does with it.

But not only were the documents taken, classified documents taken to a country club, but they lied. And the National Archives tried for more than a year to get these documents back. They had to put pressure on. We're going to call Congress. We're going to escalate this. And finally, they got some of them back. And what we see in this filing overnight is there was even more obstruction from the from the Trump lawyers and saying we won't give them back. And remember, all the people defending Donald Trump here, it's worth pointing out again, are the same ones literally chanting for Hillary Clinton to be put in prison because she had a private server at her home with emails in there. So hypocrisy. There it is right there.

Put Hillary in prison for having the server. Donald Trump, no problem having classified documents in the basement. And if you try to hold him accountable, Mika, well, Lindsay says Republicans will riot in the streets. Republicans will will will commit acts of violence and cause chaos in the streets of America. I'm not saying that like some left wing. Is that what Republicans are? Freaks not saying that. That's that's one of the most senior Republican senators saying if Donald Trump is held to

the same standard that Lindsey would be held to or any member of Congress be held to. We Republicans are going to riot in the street. We Republicans are going to commit acts of violence. Really? OK. So, Lindsay, thank you for admitting what you think of your party members. Reverend Al Sharpton, thank you very much for being on this morning. And still ahead on Morning Joe, the latest from Ukraine as nuclear inspectors head over to a Russian-held power plant amid growing concerns of a nuclear accident. Plus, former Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev, who is largely credited with ending the Cold War, has died at the age of 91. David Ignatius, Admiral James Tabredas, and Susan Page will weigh in on his legacy. Also this morning, the latest back and forth fight between Pennsylvania's two Senate candidates. Democrat John Fetterman is accusing the Oz campaign of mocking his recovery from a stroke.

We'll be right back. That's quite a political move. No one expects politics to be a patty cake. It sometimes gets mean as hell. But the idea you turn on a television and see senior senators and congressmen saying, if such and such happens, there'll be blood in the street. Where the hell are we? Take me, take me to the riot General Secretary Gorbachev, if you seek peace, if you seek prosperity for the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe,

if you seek liberalization, come here to this gate. Mr. Gorbachev, open this gate. Mr. Gorbachev. Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall. An extraordinary moment in June of 1987 when Ronald Reagan went to the wall. Of course, if you imagined at the time that would ever happen. Miguel Gorbachev, though, ended up being the final leader of the Soviet Union and along with Ronald Reagan, oversaw the end of the Cold War. He, of course, died at the age of 91. NBC News Chief Foreign Affairs Correspondent Andrea Mitchell has details.

Mikhail Gorbachev, the communist leader whose brief six-year reign transformed the map of Europe and the world, the first Soviet leader with a larger vision for his country, and who was willing to hold a summit with Ronald Reagan, the American president who called the Soviet Union an evil empire. Little did Gorbachev know he would preside over the end of that empire, years later saying, we could and should have saved the Soviet Union, but we lost politically. The two men clashed famously at their next meeting in Reykjavik, Iceland, but by December of 1987, partly through the influence of Nancy Reagan on her husband, they were at the White House, signing a treaty to reduce the threat of nuclear weapons.

The same year, Gorbachev gave his first American television interview to NBC's Tom Brokaw. And by the next year, a return summit in Moscow. The two were walking arm in arm in Red Square. And later, Gorbachev let the Berlin Wall come down without sending in Russian tanks, for which he won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1990. Americans were charmed by this new kind of young Soviet leader with his ideas of glasnost and perestroika, openness and economic restructuring, and his very modern wife Raisa. But back home, his Kremlin colleagues tried to overturn him in a three-day coup and failed. Gorbachev returned

from house arrest in Crimea to find Russian President Boris Yeltsin in charge and soon resigned. He said to avoid a bloody civil war in a country saturated with nuclear weapons. Mikhail Gorbachev, the man who changed the world but could not save his own country from falling apart. Andrea Mitchell reporting there. Joining us now, columnist and associate editor for The Washington Post, David Ignatius and former NATO Supreme Allied Commander James DeVritas. He is chief international analyst for NBC News and MSNBC,

Washington bureau chief for USA Today. Susan Page, still with us as well. Good morning to you all. Admiral, if I'm not mistaken, maybe a tear in your eye or a chill up your spine, at least, as you watched President Reagan back in 1987 there. Boy, talk about perfect timing and delivery by Reagan, but talk about enormous courage, integrity by Mikhail Gorbachev. Really a remarkable moment. You know, Willie, at home I have a strand of barbed wire from the old wall. And every time I walk by it, I think I'm walking by freedom. It hasn't turned out perhaps the way we want it to.

In fact, yesterday someone said to me breathlessly, a Russian leader has died. And I thought, Putin. Turns out, nope, Gorbachev. And this is Russia. They roll the cosmic dice. One time you get Ivan the Terrible, then you get a Peter the Great. You get Stalin, then you get a Gorbachev. And those dice have landed again on Vladimir Putin, and the world is poorer for it. And we should miss Mikhail Gorbachev, who had his flaws, but delivered so much to this nation, working in concert with a great American president, Ronald Reagan. He really did working in concert. And that's the thing.

David Ignatius, I remember after Reykjavik, commentators were so shocked that Reagan walked away without doing the deal. But ended up Reagan knew what he was doing. It's fascinating, though. Through the years, you've had many in America on the left credit Mikhail Gorbachev with ending the Cold War, acting as if Ronald Reagan had nothing to do it. On the right, giving all credit to Ronald Reagan, acting as if Mikhail Gorbachev was not necessary to expedite this. But in reality, they did work in concert. They were partners in history, weren't they?

They were partners, an unlikely partnership to be sure. But Mikhail Gorbachev was a miracle, to use the words that George F. Kennan, who was our ambassador to Moscow, used, architect of the Cold War. And his point was that Gorbachev was a product of the Soviet system. He'd been a party boss in Stavropol, where he's from. He'd come up through the party. He was the Soviet man. And he began to see, as he moved toward the peak of power in the 1980s, that this was a system that was corrupt.

It was inefficient. It was broken. And so he thought he could reform it. And it turned out to be a terrible mistake, because the system was so rotten from within that the more change he made, as Andrew Mitchell reminded us, the words glasnost, openness, and perestroika, economic change, the more he tried to do that, the more the system crumbled until by the end of his time, he was being overwhelmed by more radical forces who wanted to sweep Soviet

communism away. It ended so quickly. I find, Joe, a great poignancy in thinking about this man, Mikhail Gorbachev, who, with Reagan's help, swung the door of this monstrous Soviet regime open, let the fresh air and the sunshine in. And now we've seen that door slam closed again with a despotic leader in Vladimir Putin. Putin has done something in Ukraine that even the worst of the Soviet dictators wouldn't have contemplated. It's really a tragic finale to the story of Gorbachev,

almost an accidental reformer who started a process that once it began, simply couldn't be stopped. An accidental reformer that Ann Applebaum said yesterday after hearing of his passing said, not many people have it in their power to change the world as much as Mikhail Gorbachev did, even if he didn't start out wanting to do so. And of course, so right, Admiral, much like much like Zelensky. I'm sure when he was an actor, he never foresaw the future that he would find himself in the middle of the history that he would find himself in the middle of, the history that he would find himself in the middle of. But I do find it fascinating, David, talking about how this evil empire, and yes, Reagan was right, it was an evil empire. They killed tens of millions of their own people.

I don't think many people understand the scale of evil that was the Soviet Union, but they killed tens of millions of their own people. And yet when Gorbachev tried to reform that system, it was corrupt. It collapsed from within. And you talk about history rhyming. We look right now at Putin's Russia and they try to invade a country and take it over in three days. And we see that it is rotten to the core militarily, economically, culturally. It's this, you know, this guy, this guy, Putin, who wanted to undo Mikhail Gorbachev's work, actually is presided over a corrupt century was the collapse of the Soviet Union. I would argue potentially the greatest tragedy was the ascension to power of Vladimir Putin. And you say, Joe, correctly, under Stalin in particular, Russians killed millions of their own.

Unfortunately, that's what's happening in Ukraine. And Putin wants to have it both ways. He wants to say Ukraine isn't really a nation. They're really part of us. They're part of our body. And yet we see these terrible war crimes, these attacks on civilians, all of the awful events that have unfolded here. And, you know, you think of how Gorbachev must feel or felt until a few days ago watching all of this unfold. Finally, you know, our great statesman Henry Kissinger's new book, Leadership, looks at a number of different figures over the last 40 or 50 or 60 years. He didn't profile Mikhail Gorbachev. I think today we need to hear from Henry Kissinger to understand how to put him in a context. But I'm with David Ignatius and our previous

conversation show. This is the passing of a remarkable figure in history, a poignant figure, I think is the right term, some tragedy mixed in with it. But I think as Mikhail Gorbachev looks down on us from the pearly gates, let's hope that he sees the good that he did not being completely undone in this dark period with Vladimir Putin. It is a dark time. Susan Page, your thoughts on the legacy of Mikhail Gorbachev? You know, it's really an example of how an individual leader can make all the difference. There was nothing inevitable about the course that Mikhail Gorbachev took. He made a huge difference after just in about six years in power, but he needed a partner. He had a partner in

Margaret Thatcher. He had a partner in Margaret Thatcher. He had a partner in Ronald Reagan. I was covering the Reagan White House for Newsday. And we shouldn't forget how much resistance there was within Reagan's own ranks to engaging with this Soviet leader, that there was a lot of suspicion about whether you could trust Mikhail Gorbachev. And as Andrea Mitchell mentioned in her piece, Nancy Reagan played a big role in countering the advice of some of Ronald Reagan's most hawkish advisors in saying you can trust him, you need to do this, this makes you a president of peace. Her role, I think, should also not be overlooked here. And just one more thing. George H.W. Bush managed to land the plane

with the dissolution of the Soviet Union, with the end of the Cold War. That was a treacherous period. And he handled it with enormous deftness. And I'd be curious, in fact, to hear what my friend David Ignatius has to say about this. The series of partners that that that Mikhail Gorbachev had that were so important, enabling him to do this important legacy that he has left. David. So if I can respond to that, Susan, I do think that George H.W. Bush was a master at playing out the endgame. The Soviet Union was crumbling. All the weakness that Gorbachev had seen was coming down around him. But to keep that debris from causing enormous damage, to see the change all the way through without it erupting,

was an amazing achievement done by Baker, done by Brent Scowcroft, his national security advisor. Baker is his secretary of state, and then Bush himself. Just want to note, thinking of something that Joe said, in 1983, I went to the Soviet Union, went to Moscow. Gorbachev was then a rising protege of the KGB chairman on drop-off. And I went to see a dissident in an apartment outside Moscow, somebody who had been fired from his job and lost everything. And this person turned to me in this cold study and said, Reagan had just given the evil empire speech. He turned to me and said, how can it be that in your country, which is so rich and we thought had forgotten about us, that you have a president who still calls us by our true name, who calls us the evil empire?

How did this happen? What a miracle. And I never looked at Reagan the same way after that. That's how his words were heard in Moscow by people who desperately want to change. You have a president who's told the truth about us. And I think in that sense, Reagan was central to this story. And Gorbachev brought that change and he had, Admiral, contempt, although he didn't express it often publicly for what Vladimir Putin is doing right now, undoing, attempting anyway,

all of his work. I did want to ask you, Admiral, we're talking in the break about our previous segment about classified documents and what's been found at Mar-a-Lago. And you had some insights into what might happen to you if you've been found with even a single classified document in your home. Yeah. And here I'm kind of speaking to all the military people who are handling classified documents every single day. When I was Supreme Allied Commander in NATO, every day at 10 o'clock, a young captain would show up with a binder full of all that SCI, TK, top secret. And literally both our hands were locked on that binder as he passed it from himself to me. And, you know, if either one of us had torn out a few pages, hey, I'm going to look at this

a little later, whatever, they would have come, discovered that and taken us away in handcuffs. Me, the four star admiral, him, the young captain or the sergeant who did the same thing. So however, this all turns out at Mar-a-Lago, my insight is there are people protecting classified material every day and they are watching what happens here. And the next time someone mishandles classified documents, they might say, oh, gosh, someone else got away with this. But I assure you, that's a bad lesson. And you're talking about one document and you're not obstructing, giving it back. You don't have any bad intent. Something completely different going on at Mar-a-Lago. Retired Admiral James DeVritas, The Washington Post, David Ignatius, USA Today, Susan Page.

Great conversation. Thank you all for being here this morning. Good to see you. Mika. Wow. A lot going on coming up. Former President Trump spent yesterday posting online like a paranoid conspiracy theorist. We'll take you through his disturbing promotion of a fringe movement. Meanwhile, President Biden laid out more priorities for his party after the midterms, and he's vowing to take action on an issue that many Americans support. Morning Joe is coming right back.