Morning Joe - Morning Joe 8/5/22

Episode Date: August 5, 2022

Kari Lake, Trump-backed election denier, wins GOP primary in Arizona governor's race

Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It's Friday, August 5th. We're following a lot of breaking news this morning. China announcing a short time ago that it has sanctioned House Speaker Nancy Pelosi for her visit to Taiwan this week. We'll discuss what, if anything, this means for U.S. foreign policy. Plus, Democrats are now on track to pass a sweeping spending bill that is key to the Biden agenda. More on the negotiations that won over Senator Kyrsten Sinema, allowing the bill to move forward. And Donald Trump's Arizona sweep is complete as Carrie Lake wins the Republican nomination for governor, becoming the fourth election denier and Trump endorsed candidate to win a major nomination in the state. Look at that. Look at that. Look at that. There's a whole lot of crazy. That's election deniers, insurrectionists, weirdos, freaks. You've got it all.

Really, you've got a variety of candidates for the Republican Party in Arizona, all of them extreme, all of them insurrectionists, all of them people who actually don't believe in American democracy. They believe in their form of government where, well, you only recognize elections where your side wins. And this is what folks on the far right have been working on for quite some time. What this says about Trumpism and the future of the Republican Party. Also, a Russian court sentences WNBA star Brittany Griner to nine years in prison. We will have reaction from President Biden and the latest on efforts to get her home. And monkeypox now declared a

national public health emergency. We'll speak with a top White House health advisor about this later this morning. You know, Willie, we have a lot, a lot to talk about. We also have some polls out of Ohio. It seems it butters now down by 10 or 11 points, according to his survey, falling behind Tim Ryan. That one's that one is fascinating. You look at Dr. Oz in Pennsylvania and it's a precursor. Those things are a precursor to what happened in Arizona. I mean, you talk about I've got to say you you talk about extremes. And I think the Arizona Republican Party, the rank and file selected, again, the most extreme slate of candidates probably in modern American history for election deniers, four people who, despite all of the federal courts, all of the Trump appointees, all of the Trump Supreme Court justices, all of the Republicans

up and down the line who have said that this election was legitimate, all of the people who worked in the Trump administration who said this election was legitimate. The Republican slate of candidates this fall, insurrectionists, freaks, weirdos, really, really extreme, the most extreme slate of candidates in American history. Yeah. And some of those in Arizona, not just casual election deniers. Mark Fincham, the nominee to be secretary of state, was at the Capitol on January 6th. He was at the Stop the Steal rally. Carrie Lake, the nominee for governor, has adopted the language of election denial. She was a different person, of course, a couple of years ago when she supported Barack Obama.

An Obama supporter. Exactly, exactly. But she now says, yes, I have evidence that the 2020 election was rigged, except I'm not going to share it with you because you're in the fake news. So she keeps saying she's got evidence but won't share it. But that's sort of beside the point, because now the four of them are on the doorstep. They're one step away, one election away in Arizona from being in positions of real power where they could have if they'd been in place in 2020, they could have done something to change the outcome of the 2020 election. They could have flipped votes there.

And it's not just Arizona, as you say. It's Pennsylvania, where Dr. Oz is also playing a part, pretending he's crazy. Voters are starting to see through that in that poll that you mentioned. Same goes for J.D. Vance, the venture capital guy, the guy from Silicon Valley also playing a part. Ohio voters, it looks like, are starting to see through that. So none of these elections will be easy for Democrats, but these are definitely the candidates they hoped to face in the fall. Well, and the stakes, Mickey, could not be any higher. Couldn't be any higher, especially in these races where you have election deniers who are running. Is it an overstatement? I don't know. I mean, I guess our viewers can decide whether it's an

overstatement to say to say that our form of American democracy is at risk if we start electing people who deny election results when their side loses. Yeah, that's where we are. So you don't want to overstate it. You don't want to be hyperbolic. But but it's dangerous. But but but yeah, I so much is at stake this fall when you have these people who are insurrectionists or who supported the insurrectionists or, you know, you've got the Republican gubernatorial candidate in Pennsylvania who showed up on January the 6th and and again, talks the language of insurrection. It talks the language of election denial. It's it's anti-democratic and it's un-American. Well, along with Joe, Willie and me, we have the host of Way Too Early, White House bear chief at Politico, the author of The Big Lie, Jonathan Lemire. And Pulitzer Prize winning columnist and associate editor of The Washington Post, Eugene Robinson, joins us this morning as well.

Thank you all for being here with us. Senator Kyrsten Sinema has agreed to back Democrats, the reconciliation bill clearing the way for a vote this week. This was quick. Yesterday didn't look too good. Her decision comes after days of fellow Democrats lobbying her on the deal. In a statement last night, the moderate senator said she would come on board after the carried interest tax provision was removed. The bill also imposes a 15 percent minimum tax on large corporations after many companies paid little to no taxes after the 2017 Trump tax cut. A new excise tax on stock buybacks was added and lawmakers also agreed to add funding to combat droughts. The package includes many top items on President

Biden's agenda, including other tax reform measures, investments to combat climate change, help for people to pay for prescription drugs. That was a big one they were fighting for. And the package reduces the deficit. Both Senate leaders spoke about the bill yesterday with Senator Schumer praising the package, while Minority Leader Mitch McConnell criticized its size. Soon the Senate will vote on this groundbreaking legislation. I expect we'll have some late nights and extended debates here on the floor. But in the end, we're going to make good on our word to pass the Inflation Reduction Act. The Democrats have decided to spend hundreds of billions of dollars of the people's money on a bill that laughs at the people's priorities.

So I would dare any of our Democrat colleagues to walk up to a working class American on the street and ask them what the government ought to spend hundreds of billions of dollars on. Well, first off, in a time of inflation, they'd probably tell them not to spend hundreds of billions of dollars in the first place. You know, it's interesting. I guess. Mitch and Republicans are against stopping prescription drugs and those prices from being high because that's anti-inflationary. I guess Mitch and the Republicans are against allowing Medicare to negotiate with big drug companies to get better deals that would drive down the price of Medicare. So that's anti inflationary. I guess Mitch and the Republicans are against limiting out of pocket drug costs for working class Americans. That's anti inflationary. I do understand why Republicans would be against reducing the federal budget deficit by 300 billion dollars after they raised it by record levels under Donald Trump year after year after year after year. Same thing with tax credits. of oil companies and tech companies and Amazon.com and Occidental Petroleum and Nike and all of these massive corporations over the past several years paying zero in taxes. And you look at these

numbers, Willie, 77 percent like the Democratic plan to place caps on prescription drug price hikes. They like the plan to allow Medicare to finally get to negotiate with big pharma. Seventy seven percent. Seventy three percent. Seventy three percent like the limiting out of pocket drug costs. Seventy three percent actually like reducing the federal budget deficit, even though Donald Trump and Republicans hate that and have proven that by blowing blowing a hole in the deficit over the past five years. They like tax credits for renewable energy tech, and they like actually making the largest multinational corporations in America pay a minimum tax. It looks pretty popular. So I'm going to be curious to see all the Republicans who are against this.

Actually, this anti inflationary package that actually lowers the deficit. And those numbers are not just among Democrats, we should point out that's among all Americans. You have three quarters of the country supporting a lot of the provisions inside this bill. And that is why Chuck Schumer feels like he is on good political ground as they look like they're going to pass this. And that is why Senator Joe Manchin of West Virginia came around to it because he believes it will, in fact, reduce the deficit. Let's go to Ali Vitale. She's, of course, NBC News Capitol Hill correspondent. Ali, most people thought that, yes, Senator Sinema would come around eventually. She did last night, really just getting this carried interest tax out of the bill.

But it was, in fact, replaced by another tax on buyback of stock for corporations that Democrats say will even this out in the end. Was she a tough arm to twist or was she always going to be there for Chuck Schumer? Look, this is one where Democrats were hopeful that she would come around, but multiple senators who I talked to over the course of this week said this is not something that they're confident in until the vote actually happens. Of course, having Sinema on the record saying that she's on board is a really big help. It doesn't do anything to speed up the process. We are still in for what Chuck Schumer warned us about, which is many late nights. And in fact, those nights are going to be happening this

weekend. So you're going to see a lot of tired senators going into their summer recess and then a lot of tired reporters waiting for the House to come back and do their job to do their side of passing this bill. But what this is going to look like over the weekend, Willie, is the Senate parliamentarian still doing their scrub of this bill, making sure that the final text will be ready for some point this weekend when they're going to start this process Saturday afternoon. That's going to kick off the first vote on it and then up to 20 hours of debate and then a very lengthy round of unlimited amendment votes. So it's going to be a very long weekend in the Senate. But look, what the upside of this cinema thing is, is the fact that for Democrats, this was always going to be a top priority in part because of what you guys were talking about, that a lot of the things that are in this poll very popularly, not just among Democrats,

but across the political board. And then, of course, the other piece of it is the fact that they would love to be able to go home and not just say that they're doing things on climate, on prescription drug pricing, on all of the other pieces that are popular in this bill. But the very name of it, the Inflation Reduction Act, is the very counter that they want to be able to bring to Republicans who are trying to make at every turn this midterm election cycle a referendum on the economy. Democrats now get to say that not only have they ticked through several of their policy priorities in this bill, but they've also done things to blunt the impact of inflation that Americans are seeing on their wallet every day. All right. NBC's Ali Vitale, thank you so much. Greatly appreciate the reporting.

Gene Robinson, a lot of very popular things in this bill. I just I do need to say, though, you do need to say, though, I do find it incredible that for years Republicans and I guess now some conservative Democrats go out of their way to continue to protect the wealthiest hedge fund managers in America. And that that was the deal killer for Kyrsten Sinema, trying to save a provision that, as Warren Buffett has said for years, allows the richest hedge fund managers to pay lower tax rates than their secretaries and clerical staff that work for them. It is crazy. It's crazy. It is crazy. It is crazy. And I thought that maybe this time they'd finally gotten rid of this. It's manifestly unfair. It is just a tax break just for these super wealthy hedge fund managers and lets them count what is clearly income is, you know, in some different category and pay very little tax on it. It's ridiculous. Who knows? I don't think anybody is quite sure why this is such a huge issue for Sinema.

My supposition is that she and perhaps other Democrats, who knows if there were other senators who secretly wanted to keep this, will continue to get big campaign contributions from hedge fund managers. That's the only thing I can figure out. I mean, or maybe that's that's, you know, the business she wants to go into when she leaves the Senate someday. I just don't. Those are the only reasons it's it's so manifestly ridiculous on its face that you would think that would be the first thing to go. But here it is. We still got carried interest. You know, Jonathan Lemire, as the White House watches this unfold, Chuck Schumer says he's got the 50 votes he needs right now, believes the parliamentarian is going to rubber stamp this, and it will, in fact, go through the Senate. He's got to be celebrating today. I mean, his personal numbers are still down in the 30s if you look at more polling this week. But when you look at the last several weeks, a lot of it bipartisan.

This on party lines, major pieces of legislation going through the Senate and signed on his desk. Not just good for his party, but much of it good for the country and something that his Democratic candidates can run on this fall. Yeah. White House aides I've been in touch with are going to hold off on the full on celebration until the vote is done, just because, you know, there are some unpredictable characters. But certainly this is well on its way and they are deeply relieved and very pleased. And they point to the idea that suddenly the Biden administration here has overseen a number of major legislative victories. The bipartisan infrastructure deal, of course, the chips package just this past week or so that will allow the U.S. to better compete with China conducting and making computer chips, COVID relief funds, the gun control bill, and now this biggest of all.

Is it smaller than Build Back Better was going to be last year? Yes, of course it was. But it is still significant. It hits a lot of Democratic priorities, including on climate change, biggest climate change investment ever made in this country. And it gives, as you say, Willie, Democratic candidates something really to run on this fall with a lot of popular items. We just showed that poll. Everything in this bill or most things in this bill, perhaps except that carried interest loophole, resonate well with Democrats and Republicans alike. And there is a real sense, particularly for the Senate, that Democrats have a fighting chance here and could do better than a lot of people expected a few months ago, particularly considering the quality of candidates the Republicans have put up, as we mentioned, at the top of the show. So this is significant for Democrats running this November. It's significant for this president,

who's had a number of wins here and seems to have some wind at his back. White House aides will be watching a couple of late nights, August weekend. That's tough for the U.S. Senate, but they feel like this is a good thing. It's almost there. All right. We're going to come back to this in just a minute. Some more news this morning is conspiracy theorist Alex Jones now must pay more than four million dollars in compensatory damages to the family of a child killed in the Sandy Hook shooting after Jones spent years peddling false claims that shooting was a hoax. But his troubles may only be beginning as he focuses now on his text messages. Prosecutors are looking very closely at those. They were mistakenly sent to prosecutors by Jones's attorneys.

NBC News correspondent Anne Thompson has details. Alex Jones learning the cost of his lies. Some members of the jury have reached a verdict. An Austin, Texas jury saying the InfoWars host must pay $4.1 million to the parents of one of the Sandy Hook victims for years of unfounded claims like this. Sandy Hook is a synthetic, completely fake, with actors, in my view, manufactured. But Jones didn't about-face from his lies about the school shooting. It's 100% real. For the parents of Jesse Lewis, who brought the suit, the damages were far less than the one hundred fifty million dollars they sought, but far more than the eight dollars Jones attorney offered in closing arguments,

a dollar for each of the claims. The jury just returned a verdict for compensatory damages exceeding four million dollars. That's a darn good start. We now have the punishment phase. But Jones may face even bigger troubles over that trove of text messages mistakenly sent to the plaintiff's attorney. I've been asked by the January 6th committee to turn their... I mean, I don't know the... The texts include what the attorney called intimate messages with Trump advisor Roger Stone. The committee is looking into Jones' role in the rally and riot at the Capitol. Jones' attorney asked for a mistrial based on the emails. The judge denied the request.

Ann Thompson reporting for us there. Joe, this all is a money-making game and has been for a decade now for Alex Jones, but I'm not sure people fully appreciate the pain that he has brought upon families who already were living with the fact that their children were slaughtered inside a first grade classroom in Sandy Hook, that they've been harassed by people who listen to Alex Jones, who believe the conspiracy theories and the hoaxes that he puts out there. They've had to move. They've had to change their names. They've been told that they're liars, that they're crisis actors. It's real additional pain on top of the unimaginable pain that they're already in. Unimaginable, the hatred, the cruelty. And, you know, it seems that

for too long we've lived in a political and media culture from the far right that's been defined by these sort of lies, falsehoods, by the slander of people, whether it's on Twitter or social media or in podcasts or on the radio, or treason. We've moved on to treasonous language. And for good reason, I think a lot of Americans, millions of Americans have asked, where is the justice? Where is the accountability? Are there no rules? Are there no guardrails in American culture to stop these sort of lies where you have a guy, a conspiracy theorist who can actually tell parents of slaughtered six-year-olds that your children never existed and make millions and millions of dollars from it. Or you can have news networks going on spreading lies about American democracy, spreading lies about voting machines, trying to destroy companies' reputations. Have a president that every day would lie about people.

And I know that very well. And again, no accountability, no accountability from Twitter, no accountability from Facebook, no accountability from social media for all of these lies. Maybe. Well, Mika. Yeah. Maybe just maybe we are starting to see in time over time that there is a cost for for for for being defined by these fire hoods, fire hoses of falsehoods where you have Alex Jones now being accountable for at least four million to start. We're now moving on to the punitive stage. Rudy Giuliani being disbarred. One network after another on the far right being sued for billions of dollars for the lies that they spread about Dominion and voting machines. Perhaps, just perhaps, this is the beginning. This is the first guardrail that's being put up there to send a message to other people, to other liars out there that actually would lie about six year old slaughtered to make money to protect the gun industry.

Maybe maybe this is the start of accountability at long last. It might be. It might be. I find his behavior in court to be repulsive. He continues to try and snake his way out of arguments with different lawyers and the judge. And I draw a direct line to even some of the politicians we're seeing now in Arizona, Carrie Lake, just cravenly lying about the contours of our democracy and how to behave in it. If you want to be in a democracy, pushing lies, pushing conspiracy theories, hurting people. Just loving, hurting people. It is repulsive because it's disgusting. It's money and it wins votes for hope and change. Kerry, you know, hope and change. Kerry decided to to adopt Donald Trump's lies because hope and change. Kerry got tired of being an Obama supporter

and thought her best chance of getting elected would be to stop being hope and change. Kerry and start being stolen election. Kerry. And, you know, it worked in the primary process. And Kerry. But but perhaps the right rapists carry. Perhaps these lies will will will be called out by the voters. In a few hours, the jury in the defamation trial will reconvene to deliberate on possible punitive damages to be paid out to families of Sandy Hook victims. We'll be following that. More now on those text messages. The attorney for the Sandy Hook parents suing Jones confirmed the January 6th committee has requested the two years worth of records from Jones phone that were mistakenly sent to him.

Whoops. By Jones's lawyers. Oh, this is a request and not a subpoena. But attorney Mark Banston has said he intends to comply. Jones heavily promoted the stop to theal rally and is alleged to have been involved in the planning and funding of it. Jones did speak with the January 6th committee back in January, where he claims to have pleaded the 5th nearly 100 times. A spokesperson for the committee declined to comment. Let's bring in congressional investigations reporter for The Washington Post, Jackie Alimany. She's an MSNBC contributor. Jackie, what more do you know about this and other requests, perhaps for records by the committee? Good morning, Mika. Yeah,

these text messages from Alex Jones could be a treasure trove for the January 6th Select Committee, and they're very likely to actually receive these texts. As you just noted, Alex Jones was not that cooperative with the committee. And as we've seen previously, text messages have been key evidentiary building blocks for the committee as they've done their work throughout the past year in a subpoena letter from Congressman Benny Thompson. They noted several areas and topics that Jones's text messages could provide further light on. One, Jones was involved with the planning of the January 6th rally on the Ellipse. We've previously reported about some of his communications with planners of the rally,

people like Caroline Wren, Katrina Pearson, and others, and Ali Alexander as well, another pretty notorious insurrectionist who was cooperating with the committee. They're also extremely interested in what Jones said to Trump after his infamous December 19th tweet where he told his supporters, be there, it will be wild. Jones went on InfoWars that same day and called who were staying at the Willard Hotel, which was sort of the home base for some of these schemes to overturn the results of the election. And especially as the committee is pursuing further threads, trying to shed light on former President Trump's ties to extremists and what exactly he knew about some of the planning taking place that day. Jones's text could be very key evidence in that regard. Yeah, Jackie, as you say, Alex Jones could be a link between a lot of these pieces the committee is putting together, including his friend Roger Stone.

And you talk about the Willard Hotel, that sort of command center that was set up there, especially on the night of January 5th, with that group of people trying to help Donald Trump with his attempted coup. Does the committee have any sense? I mean, obviously, Alex Jones didn't tell them anything. He pleaded the fifth more than 100 times when he sat with them. Does the committee have a sense or a suspicion about what his role may have been in getting people to the Capitol and trying to pull off this coup? They have a superficial sense, and they also have been able to sort of cobble together a picture based on cooperation from other players who were around Jones and close to him. Again, people like Ali Alexander and maybe some other names that we haven't yet heard from.

But I think that what the committee has realized, even after a year's worth of investigating and obtaining hundreds and thousands of documents and interviews, is that there are still evidentiary gaps here. People have successfully been able to avoid being fully transparent. We've seen entities like the Secret Service, the Department of Defense. And so I think they're failed to turn over everything that's been required of them. So I think that there is an expectation that they are going to learn a little bit more about the efforts with planning the rally on January 5th and January 6th and the role that Jones played, whether there was any coordination. And, you know, we've already seen some threads of this so far in the previous eight hearings. suggesting that the former president knew that and was telling supporters in a quiet way that he was going to be walking to the Capitol after his speech. How did they know that? So there are a lot of questions here and investigators are hoping that Jones's text

messages could shed some new light on that. All right. The Washington Post, Jackie Alimany, thank you so much for your reporting on this Friday morning. Have a great weekend. All right. The Washington Post, Jackie Alimany, thank you so much for your reporting on this Friday morning of a great weekend. Thank you. And still ahead on Morning Joe, breaking overnight China sanctions House Speaker Nancy Pelosi on the heels of her trip to Taiwan. What she's saying about Beijing's reaction to her visit. Plus, Russia's foreign minister says Moscow is ready to hold talks about a potential prisoner swap following WNBA star Brittany Griner's conviction. We'll have the latest on the effort to bring her home. Also this morning, Congresswoman Liz Cheney gets a little help from her father, former Vice President Dick Cheney, ahead of a tough primary challenge.

We'll show you the ad. It's pretty impressive. And with more infections being recorded, the Biden administration declares monkeypox a public health emergency. We'll talk to a White House health advisor about that. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back. I like it around here. Thirty four past the hour, American basketball star Brittany Griner has been sentenced to nine years in a Russian prison after being convicted yesterday on in February at a Moscow airport with vape cartridges containing cannabis oil in her luggage, made a final plea for leniency after closing arguments yesterday, apologizing and repeating that she never intended to break any Russian laws. I want the courts to understand that it was an honest mistake. I had no intent on breaking any Russian laws. I had no intent. I did not conspire or plan to commit this crime.

And I hope that in your ruling that it doesn't end my life here. Greiner must also pay a fine of about $16,000. Shortly after the verdict was announced, President Biden released a statement reiterating the U.S. position that Greiner is wrongfully detained, writing, quote, it's unacceptable and I call on Russia to release her immediately so she can be with her wife, loved ones, friends and teammates. Greiner's WNBA team, the Phoenix Mercury, participated in a 42 second moment of silence, signifying her jersey number before last night's game. Attention now turns to the potential for a prisoner swap between Washington and Moscow. This morning, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said the Kremlin is ready to talk through

an existing back channel after no substantive response to a U.S. offer for Greiner's release made in June. NBC News has previously reported the offer was a swap of Griner and another American being held in Russia, Paul Whelan, in exchange for imprisoned Russian arms dealer Victor Boot. Whelan was arrested in Russia in 2018 on charges of spying that he and his family absolutely deny. He was convicted and sentenced to 16 years in prison back in 2020. Joining us now, NBC News senior international correspondent Keir Simmons. Keir, any more word on the potential contours of a deal and if it's being taken seriously by the Russians? Omeka, I think the Russians are taking it seriously. But I think what we now have in store is pretty brutal politics, frankly. Now, Sergei Lavrov, as you said, does say that he is ready

to talk. What he also said, though, was he criticized America for what he called public diplomacy. That comes after Dmitry Peskov criticised what he called loudspeaker diplomacy. And the foreign ministry spokeswoman, again, she too criticised the White House for kind of making all of this public. I think we're in a really difficult place, honestly. I think we need a reality check here. This sentence of nine years, just one year short of the maximum sentence that was possible, gives the Russians time. And I don't think that you should expect the Russians necessarily to be prepared to move fast. There is the opportunity for an appeal within 10 days by Brittany Griner's team, and they are suggesting they plan to do that.

But we've discussed before, I mean, it's incredibly unusual for the White House to openly kind of put on the table the offer they're making. My prediction is that the Russians will now view that as a starting point. I don't think that they're going to be prepared to do a two for one deal, if you like, Brittany Griner and Paul Whelan for this arms trafficker. I suspect that they are going to look back at the deal with Trevor Reid, where a drug trafficker, Konstantin Karaschenko, was swapped for Trevor Reid. And they're going to say, well, that was one for one. So we're going to do one for one now. And this is, sorry to say it, but I think this is an example of where inside the Beltway politics, good, you know, probably smart from the White House point of

views, inside the Beltway politics is not good geopolitics. So clearly, the White House felt that they needed to indicate, particularly, I suspect, ahead of the midterms, that they were doing everything they could to try and secure a Britneyney griner and paul whelan's release but i mean publicly negotiating i mean the russians are criticizing it let's be clear it is the russians who are responsible for what's happening to britney griner it's an appalling sentence but publicly negotiating is a very strange way to negotiate and by the way keep in mind too that what that what the Russians are trying to do here is to embarrass the White House. They once again try and show America as being weak. And they will see this as an opportunity to do that by turning around and saying, OK, that's what you're offering. But this is what we want. And we're going to stand

firm until we get what we want. So, Keir, you're right in that the public posture from the White House is unusual. But aides there have told me, I mean, it had to be in response. They were getting so much pressure from the rest of the country. They had been silent for the first couple months of her detention. And then, of course, there was so much push there to do something and therefore they are. But you're right. Certainly there's some concern that it may not be successful. It's completely understandable, right? The politics, the U.S. domestic politics is understandable. Undeniable. It just doesn't make Britney Greiner, I don't think it helps Britney Greiner's case. Right, it may not be exactly right. So what is also, as we think they're looking for a two for two perhaps, but what are also the

concern level in international diplomatic circles that this is just going to embolden Russia to do something like this again? That there will be some sort of American or otherwise, some sort of civilian that they can detain and then try to hold them up for another public relations coup and prisoner swap. Well, that's another one of the issues. What we've done, what we've seen effectively is a quite a stunning policy shift from a policy that said we don't do these kind of prisoner swaps for precisely the reason you're suggesting, which is that what you do is you say to Russia and many other countries, go arrest another American citizen and you can get whoever it is you want back from an American prison. So we've seen a shift from that policy to what we now appear to have, which is that, yeah,

America is prepared to swap when needed, when they're under domestic political pressure. Again, just to be clear, it's completely understandable. Everybody feels for Britney Greiner's family, for Paul Whelan's family. It's understandable, the politics of it. But there are huge risks here for other Americans in the world. And I think also, again, risks to the negotiations themselves, because while the Russians are criticizing this, what they're calling this public diplomacy, they're also going to be enjoying it, frankly. Yeah. And Gene Robinson, of course, the problem with a one for one swap is you have Paul Whelan, who has been there longer, has a longer sentence. And his family, of course, is is is not going is not going to be quiet if he's left behind for political purposes

or because he doesn't have as high of a profile. And the Biden White House, let's just face it. I mean, they haven't been they haven't been pressured to get to gain his release as much as as Britney Grinder. So I think I think we're this discussion is important because maybe the White House has backed themselves into a corner by publicly talking about a two for one swap. It seems to me they have no other option to get both out or get none out. That's probably right. You probably have to get them both out. I mean, the whole thing is complicated by the fact that Brittany Griner is a famous person. You know, she is a she is famous around the world. She's one of the best basketball players in the world and known throughout the United States, known throughout Russia. And so that that just complicates things. And I think here is probably right that the Russians will feel that they now don't have to do a two-for-one. On the other hand, they do really want this arms

dealer, Victor Boot, who's been in a U.S. prison for a decade. He's a bad, bad guy and, you know, a merchant of death and richly deserves to be in a U.S. prison. But he's been in there for a decade, and I can understand why the administration would be willing to say, OK, it's worth making that trade. And he is somebody that, for whatever reason, the Russians really, really want to get out of the U.S. prison. They want him back back home. And so apparently Putin wants him home.

Lavrov apparently raises this with with U.S. officials. Boots situation pretty regularly and has for years. So so we'll see how badly they want this guy. All right. Here, why don't you stand by? We've got a lot of other foreign policy news to talk to you about, including Nancy Pelosi, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's trip to Taiwan and the reaction to it by China. We'll be back in just a moment. It is 648 on an August Friday morning at the United States Capitol. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, meanwhile, is wrapping up her trip to Asia with a stop in Tokyo today. But the focus remains on the Chinese response to her visit to Taiwan earlier in the week. Moments ago, China announced sanctions on

Speaker Pelosi and her family for what it calls vicious and provocative actions. Earlier today, Speaker Pelosi reiterated support for Taiwan, saying China is trying to isolate the island. We have said from the start that our representation here is not about changing the status quo here in Asia, changing the status quo in Taiwan. They may try to keep Taiwan from visiting or participating in other places, but they will not isolate Taiwan by preventing us to travel there. We've had high-level visits, senators in the spring, a bipartisan way, continuing visits, and we will not allow them to isolate Taiwan. That's Speaker Pelosi earlier today. China now is conducting military drills near Taiwan in

response to Pelosi's visit. Japan's prime minister condemning the military exercise after five ballistic missiles launched by the Chinese landed in Japanese waters. Meanwhile, Reuters is reporting China's top diplomat walked out of a high profile dinner last night in Cambodia. The gala was attended by more than a dozen foreign ministers, including United States Secretary of State Antony Blinken. So, Keir, it's not just these sanctions specifically on Nancy Pelosi, but we're learning this morning, just minutes ago, actually, that China says we are going to cease talks with the United States on the economy, on climate change and other matters we've been discussing because of Speaker Pelosi's visit, throwing a full diplomatic tantrum here.

Yeah, the Chinese are furious. I think they are deliberately furious in the sense that it's not surprising. Richard Haass has been saying this very clearly on the show for many weeks. I've been listening. I think the timing of this ahead of the 20th Chinese Communist Party convention where President Xi is expected to get his third term. I think the timing of this is significant. They will see Nancy Pelosi's visit as significant because it's so close to that moment. But also they will see it domestically as an opportunity to assert the power of China, the confidence of China in the world now. And that will be a good message that the Chinese government, I think, will think as they head towards this decision to give President Xi more time

in the presidency. And I think really what we're seeing here is a kind of a reality of the situation surrounding Taiwan and in the world, a much more assertive China. I mean, in a sense, you could call it what the Russians call hybrid warfare. It's an example of what the Chinese call the wolf warrior diplomacy, you know, shouting loudly, criticizing openly America's policies. We're seeing that play out here. And effectively, the Chinese are asserting themselves over Taiwan through this Pelosi visit. And I say all that because clearly there is the domestic politics surrounding this here in the US. But the reality in kind of the geopolitical sense is that, again, some of this is politics and deliberate politics.

Well, Gene, it works actually perfectly for Xi politically at home, domestically, where, again, he's trying to be crowned king for life or whatever he's trying to do and trying to gain more power than any political leader since Mao. But his economy is in trouble. His zero covid policy was a nightmare. Him busting up Hong Kong has led to this once extraordinarily vital center of in in Asia to start to fall apart. His enslavement of two million Ouijas continues to haunt him on the global stage. So he has a nice little diplomatic war here. It plays well at home. He's been sort of amping up the jingoism as he moves towards this fall election. So Nancy Pelosi going there sends a good message, I think, regarding America's stance towards Taiwan. But it's a great opportunity for Xi

at home to use it for his own domestic political purposes. Yeah, maybe. And maybe he will see it as a great opportunity. And he's making all this noise, you know, in advance of his getting his third term. I mean, but, you know, remember that people in China, Chinese citizens, they know about the economy. They know what's happening with the economy. They know how bad and disastrous as zero COVID policies have been. So they've, you know, they're not necessarily thrilled with how the government's been handling things recently. And remember, before the Pelosi visit, she made a very big deal. The Chinese made a very big deal. She cannot come, she must not come. Maybe that was all for show, but she came anyhow. And so what I'm hoping is that this flurry of, you know, getting up and walking out of the dinner and we won't talk to you anymore and all of that is enough for him to feel that, for Xi to feel that he has he has saved face after Pelosi, you know, did something in his face that he he demanded she not do.

And so hopefully, you know, this is this is enough and he'll get his third term and things will calm down here briefly. We were just talking the break. Let's look ahead a little bit. The G20 is scheduled for Indonesia this November. It's believed likely to be the first face-to-face meeting for Presidents Biden and Xi. Since Biden took office, it would be after we presume Xi gets another term. Where do we think the relationship will be then? Can these two sides start to mend fences or is this tension only going to get worse? I think that's a great question because in the end, this is brinkmanship. And the question is, at what point does the brinkmanship stop, if you like, and a reality check come in on both sides? And the issue here, though, is that there is a view

in various parts of the world, Russia, China, maybe you could say Saudi Arabia, that America is weaker, that it is going through a very difficult period, and that the right diplomacy is to take advantage of that. And that's, in a sense, why you could argue the Pelosi visit was important. Because in the end, what people will remember is that she did go. And ultimately, if that view turns out to be wrong, and it may well that America is weaker, then things like this Pelosi visit may be part of sending that message. So how will they interact

at the G20? We shall see. But it's a very different world. And President Xi is going to go in there believing that he's facing an American president as an equal. NBC's Keir Simmons, thanks so much for joining us this morning. We appreciate it. And coming up, Hungary's far right leader, Viktor Orban, gets a starring role and standing ovation. A guy who attacks Western democracy. At CPAC. He's beloved by, well, you can't even say conservatives, I guess the extreme anti-democratic right. Just add it to the list.

It's crazy. So we're going to have much more on the troubling extremism that we are seeing in the Republican Party. Plus, we'll go through the changes Democrats made to the party's spending and tax legislation that got Joe Manchin, Kyrsten Sinema and Steve Ratner on board. Steve joins us with the charts on why he thinks this version of the Democrats agenda is better than the original build back better one. Morning Joe is coming right back.