Morning Joe - Morning Joe 9/19/23

Episode Date: September 19, 2023

Trump wrote to-do lists for assistant on WH docs marked classified: Report

All right, you're looking at live pictures from Capitol Hill, where lawmakers have 11 days to get a spending deal done and avoid a government shutdown. But it seems there's no sense of urgency from far-right Republicans to find an agreement. We'll talk about that. Meanwhile, many in the GOP are criticizing a deal that is bringing home five Americans who were wrongfully detained and imprisoned in Iran. We'll explain why in just a moment. It comes as President Biden is set to deliver a speech to the United Nations General Assembly

calling for continued support of Ukraine. The lack of prominent leaders in the crowd is raising questions about the importance of the annual event. We'll talk about that as well. A lot to get to this morning. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Tuesday, September 19th. And along with Joe, Willie and me, we have the host of Wait to Believe, White House Bureau Chief of Politico, Jonathan Lemire, U.S. Special Correspondent, BBC News. Katty Kaye is back, thankfully, and former aide to the George W. Bush White House and State Department, Elise Jordan.

She's an MSNBC political analyst. It's great to see you again, Elise. A lot to get to this morning. A lot to get to this morning, Willie. A couple of really good NFL games last night. I can't tell if you're being sarcastic. They were not great games, but they were NFL games nonetheless. So we watch.

A devastating injury for Nick Chubb, one of the best running backs in the NFL and the Cleveland Browns. They didn't even show the replay. It was so bad. But listen, I'll take a doubleheader Monday night no matter how so-so the games are. Yeah, Jonathan Lemire. I mean, it distracts us from the Red Sox baseball, right? Yeah, the Red Sox did, much to our surprise, manage a win last night. It was the first one in a while.

But to Willie's point, Nick Chubb, the Browns start running back. Just a devastating injury. Here's my one piece of advice for everyone watching today. Don't search this up online. Do not look at this. It is really, really quite terrible. His season is over and one wonders about his career. It's a real shame. He's one of the star running backs in the league. And the Pittsburgh Steelers, though, they got a win they needed. And then in the nightcap, the New Orleans Saints, two and up, undefeated in the NFC South. And by the way, you don't have to search it up today because, as Jonathan was saying, don't search it up.

TJ played it. Thank you, TJ. There's a worse one. There's a worse one. OK, thank you. All right, let's get to the news this morning. A former assistant to Donald Trump reportedly told federal investigators that the former president repeatedly wrote to do lists for her on classified documents. Wait, wait, hold on. Hold on. Hold on a second. Let's just it's very serious. But really, wasn't this the same guy that said Hillary Clinton should be locked up because of an email with a couple of classified documents?

And he's he's writing to do notes on classified documents and handing them to staff. Yeah, I mean, that's the Mika is going to go through it here. But this is the ABC News report. It really is extraordinary. I mean, it gets, this story just keeps getting more outrageous the deeper you go into it. One of his assistants says now, she's telling the authorities and investigators that he had wrote to-do lists, things he had to remember for the day on note cards, which then she would flip over and they had classified markings on them, classified documents with the grocery list on the back. It's unbelievable.

Miki, usually, by the way, when she has a list, she either like pulls up my sleeve and writes it on my arm and says, do these or sometimes it's a big one. You just do it right on my forehead. A notepad, not a classified document. All right. This is all according to ABC News. Let's just let's try and not. It seems cartoonesque, but he.

Well, it's classified documents. Anyhow, it's like several sources who are familiar with the statements from Molly Michael. She worked in the Trump White House and continued as his assistant at Mar-a-Lago until last fall. She says the written requests from the former president could often come on note cards with visible classification markings used to brief Trump while he was still in office about phone calls with foreign leaders or other international related matters. Sources tell ABC News that last August, Michael went to Mar-a-Lago the day after the FBI searched the property and found the notes Trump had written to her on classified documents in one of her desk drawers. She then made arrangements to turn them over to the FBI. ABC News reports that Michael is believed to be the person identified in special counsel Jack Smith's indictment as Trump employee two and handled many of Trump's boxes from the White

House. She also is believed to have taken some of the pictures of the boxes that were included in the classified documents indictment. Sources told ABC News that after Trump heard the FBI wanted to interview Michael last year, Trump allegedly told her, quote, you know nothing about the boxes. This is, again, Mr. Obstruction. He's been Mr. Obstruction his entire life. Yeah. And here you go. He keeps doing it.

He keeps lying. And again, the people that are turning on Donald Trump are not left wingers. They are not resistance Republicans. They are people that actually work for Donald Trump and work for Donald Trump, not in 2017, but at the end and even after January the 6th. A Trump spokesperson, by the way, said that ABC News's reports lack proper context. Yeah. And that the president did nothing wrong. I just you know, it it is so unbelievable that it's hard not to crack a smile because it's just it's so unbelievably stupid. It's just so unbelievable.

At the same time, this woman has, you know, turned over the information to the FBI and she's probably in a very serious situation. Well, she is in a serious situation. And I don't want to make light of it. I mean, it's gone from tragedy to force, but it is a tragedy. At least, Jordan, you worked in the government, You worked at the State Department. All this stuff is so important. I just can't underline enough the fact that if I were given classified briefings at armed services committees, if I were given classified documents, I would never leave the committee with any of those documents. You just don't do it.

I never knew a member who did. I never know a member who said one time, whoops, I accidentally took a classified document out of the hearing room. Why? Because you never did it. That's why these people out there that want to forgive Donald Trump and say, oh, it's much to do about nothing. That's just a lie. There are there are so many people that served this country in the military, in the State Department, in the DOD, in Congress that understood exactly what they could and could not do. And he has he has breached that that code of conduct

so many times. This is just the latest, most egregious and one of the most reckless examples, Elise. Well, and just think of how many Americans serve in war zones and when they have classified documents and they're at a remote outpost and they have a skiff for sure. But they're burn bags and things are burned and things are taken care of in a responsible manner. Remember the backlash that Sandy Berger got Bill Clinton's NSA when he stuffed documents from the Library of Congress into his shirt and left. He was charged. Yes. And he got into trouble for it. And here you have Donald Trump just treating this this important paperwork. These treasures of America's national security are secrets as if it's just, you know, paper that he can use for a to do list.

And it's suddenly environmentally friendly. It just makes no sense at all. And he just shows how he doesn't have any base conception of how what he was dealing with was so important and was completely unfit for the responsibility of commander in chief. Jonathan, as Joe says, one of the other problems that Trump has right now is that Molly Michael was in there through all of 2020, through the January 6th, through the time he left off. She was effectively a right hand to Donald Trump. She was his assistant. That's why he trusted her with this project. And as you read through again, this is just an ABC News report right now, but multiple sources were working to verify that she and Walt Nauta, according to this report, were the ones who brought the boxes from the Mar-a-Lago storage room, brought them up to Donald Trump and said, go through these.

What do you think we ought to give them and what do you want to keep? At one point, he said, all right, that's all the boxes. Tell them that's everything we have. And she says, according to this report, she knew there were many, many more boxes and that they weren't being forthright with the FBI. So it would seem she is, again, the right hand to Donald Trump, a key central witness in this case. Yeah, the report goes on to add this pretty damning detail that was sort the sources tell ABC that when Trump heard that the FBI wanted to interview Michael last year, Trump allegedly told her, quote, You don't know anything about the boxes.

So that is certainly would be a potential problem there legally for the former president and part of this investigation. On one hand, yes, this reiterates and underscores what we have known about the Trump White House. We were reporting it in real time, how chaotic it was, how they ignored norms and practices, how they turned up their nose at basic security procedures at times, both in terms of battling with, say, the COVID virus, but also handling of information, handling of documents. They didn't always go through proper and regular channels. And this is now we know that even classified documents were used at times as scrap paper. And we in those closing days of the administration during that abridged

transition, because, of course, they fought to stay in office until January 6th. Everything was done so haphazardly at the end and things were thrown in boxes they shouldn't have. It is not a surprise that this sort of inappropriate behavior continued. And this is all going to add up, Willie, to more problems for this president, as yet it is members of his inner circle. These are members who worked faithfully for the former president are the ones potentially testifying against them. Well, and the ones who don't, unfortunately, because they have classified documents in their presence, they could go to jail, which, by the way,

there's nothing political about that, I guarantee you at home. If you have classified documents in your drawer with notes on them somewhere, and the government finds out you have classified documents in your drawer with notes on them somewhere and the government finds out you have them, you're going to jail, too. It doesn't matter what your party registration is. It doesn't. None of that matters. If you're if you're trafficking in classified documents, if you have possession of classified documents. Like, it's trouble. And Katty K, most problematic is you have a former president of the United States who stole classified documents from the White House, who stole nuclear secrets from the White House, who stole war plans from

the White House, planned invasions of Iran from the White House. And to show that he actually did know what he was doing, he told one of his campaign managers, here, I shouldn't be showing you this. I could have declassified it if I were still president of the United States, but I'm not, so I shouldn't be showing you this. He knew exactly what he was doing.

And then he says to one of his staff members, forget that you ever saw this stuff, right? What did he say? You know nothing about the boxes. I guarantee you in the trial after she testifies, you're going to see those words up on a board in front of the jury. And I don't care how biased the jury is, Katty. Donald Trump continues to back himself further and further into the corner. And he does it here again with yet more proof of obstruction. Yeah.

Yeah. I was just watching that great classic, the first Star Wars, Star Wars 4 last night. You remember that scene with Alec Guinness where he says to the stormtroopers, these are not the drones you're looking for. They're not the ones you want. It works for Alec Guinness

and Obi-Wan Kenobi. I don't think it works for Donald Trump to suddenly say, you know nothing about the boxes and try and produce some mind trick on somebody who's been photographing the boxes. And we see there that she's also the same person that produced many of these photographs that have been used in this. She's starting to look a little bit like Cassidy Hutchinson for him, a little bit of a problem of somebody who has turned those documents into the FBI, presumably has been talking to the FBI and seems to have done the right thing when she realized she shouldn't be having shopping lists that were

written out on classified documents. Donald Trump also all through this time, remember, can't claim that he didn't know that what he had he shouldn't have because he was being asked repeatedly by the archives to return all of those boxes. So all along the steps, allegedly, there are indications that he knew he shouldn't have these things, had decided not to hold on to them, and then was saying to Molly Michael, even though you photographed the documents, even though you've seen these classified documents with notes written on them, you know nothing about the boxes. Wow. Yeah, you know. That is, you know nothing about the boxes. Wow.

Yeah, you know nothing about the boxes. And by the way, Willie, Katty K will get a special parting gift, Rice-A-Roni, the San Francisco treat, for all guests that bring up Star Wars. I think it's worth it. Allow me to say things like, we're going from Obi-Wan Kenobi's Jedi mind tricks to David Letterman's stupid human tricks. I'll let you

guess which one Donald Trump engaged in in Mar-a-Lago. Yeah, I mean, it is on one hand, as Vika says, you chuckle at. But my gosh, the brazenness with which Donald Trump just said, you don't know about the boxes in this report. Molly Michaels describes, according to sources, 15 boxes coming up to be turned over to the FBI. She says there were 90 boxes down in the storage room. Many, many more than Donald Trump was planning on giving to the FBI if they had not gone to exercise that search warrant. So more on that ahead. While Donald Trump is doing these things, while he is facing these crimes and these alleged crimes and these trials, Republicans are worried about Joe Biden. Two Republicans, though, warning their own party about the political brinksmanship the House majority is playing on Capitol Hill.

When it comes to President Biden's impeachment inquiry and the standoff over the budget. First, here is Republican Congressman Ken Buck of Colorado pushing back on GOP allegations that President Biden committed impeachable offenses. In the case of impeachment, we're looking for treason, bribery, high crimes or misdemeanors. And in this case, high crimes or misdemeanors. So the evidence is very strong against Hunter Biden. There is very little evidence that links Hunter Biden with Joe Biden. We have three committees right now, the Oversight Committee, the Judiciary Committee, and the Ways and Means Committee that are investigating Hunter Biden's activities. And they're doing a great job. They're uncovering

a lot of good information. They just haven't found that link yet with Joe Biden. So that's Republican Ken Buck of Colorado. Meanwhile, it appears Speaker Kevin McCarthy does not have the votes to pass a short-term funding bill with at least 15 Republicans saying they will vote against it if it comes up. They're demanding things that would never pass the Senate. Republican Congressman Steve Womack of Arkansas shared his concerns about that yesterday. Well, it's an unmitigated disaster right now on the majority side. Look, I'm fearful of what this leads to. But let's also remember it's the 18th of September. It's really early in the process. And I say that tongue in cheek. I am concerned right now that there are too many people up here that don't feel

like government shutdowns are all that bad a deal, that they don't really affect people. Let me assure you, and I don't care who you are, even if you don't think a government shutdown affects you, trust me, it's expensive. It affects you. And eventually we're going to have to get this thing operational once we shut it down. And the question then becomes what changes in order to do that? And was it a fool's errand in the beginning? So, Joe, you're seeing some of the private frustration we've heard from Republicans spill out into public now with the impeachment inquiry, number one. And then just with the way that Kevin McCarthy is being held up on a number of issues, including a potential government shutdown by this small caucus that says we gave you your job, Kevin McCarthy. We gave you the votes back in January to put you over the top.

Now, do as we say. Right. And I mean, the congressman's warnings are prescient, really, for somebody that hasn't served there a real long time. I will tell you, we were there and had a government shutdown. It never ends well. And it never ends well for Republicans, because Republicans are usually the ones that force Democrats' hands, with Democrats a little more free with spending unless Donald Trump's president.

And then, of course, Democrats, Republicans spend it in record record amounts. But just traditionally how this always sets up, it's the Republicans that are forcing the government shutdown and enforcing the government shutdown. Things may go well for a week or two, but I will tell you with us, it blew up. I mean, you find out very quickly over the course of a week or two, all the things that are impacted by a government shutdown. And it's not just liberal constituents who are impacted by government shutdowns. It's moderate constituents, conservative constituents, libertarian constituents who become far less libertarian when their paycheck from the government stops. I mean, this is this is a problem. And, you know, the bigger problem,

Elise, is and I said here all the time, I mean, and I don't I don't mind saying I've been saying it my entire adult life. The federal government spends too much money. Federal government is reckless with our money. We've got like a $33 trillion debt. That is devastating. Now, I've only been saying that for 30 years. I've written four books. They're all the same book. And they all say the same thing, which is just exactly this, that we are headed for big problems fiscally. The problem, at least, with the Republicans making this argument now is that they haven't done any of the groundwork. I mean, they've been reckless spenders. They went along with Donald Trump.

And if they were around when George W. Bush was president of the United States, they went along with George W. Bush's record deficits and record debt, too. So you can't just be for deficits and be for curbing deficits and shutting down the federal government when a Democrat's in the White House. That's why this is a terrible political play for them, not only in swing districts, but in every district, in every state, because they are raging hypocrites. Look at that. Contributions to the national debt. George W. Bush, six point one trillion over eight years. Obama, eight point three, four over eight years. Obama, 8.34 over eight years. Donald Trump, 8.2 trillion over four years. Donald Trump and the Republican Congress added more debt to the United States ledger than the first 42 presidents in U.S. history. The first 42 presidents.

Donald Trump in 40 years did more than they did in 206, 207 years. You know, and Joe, at least with the Bush administration for slight defense, at least there was a serious effort to try to reform Social Security that didn't didn't go anywhere. But it was a serious, well thought out effort. You saw nothing like that in the Trump administration. Instead, just like you mentioned, all the Republicans on the Hill were more than happy. Those so-called fiscal conservatives should just keep spending and spending and spending when they're in power. And so now at the 20th hour, as these negotiations really should already have been settled for so many Republicans to just be at a point of absolute obstinance and want the impossible when they know it's delusional and it's just not going to happen. It's just obstructionism. Well, and you know, the thing is, Willie, I don't, you know, usually when I'm in

Washington, what am I working on? I'm working on orphan relief. You and I, that's what we do, right? I don't usually go up to the Hill and talk to members and say, hey, I really think you need to look at this. I just don't do it. I will say one exception to that was when I went up and talked to people that ran the Freedom Caucus. And I said, listen, stop with your madness. Stop with the Trump madness, okay? Because they're all like going, hey, we're just like you were when you were here. I said, no, no, actually, we focused on balancing the budget. And we balanced it four years in a row.

Hadn't happened since 1920. For you guys to start doing that, you've got to be methodical. You've got to work on it day in and day out. And you can't be distracted by this Trump nonsense. Focus on protecting taxpayers' dollars. You know where that went, in one ear and out the other. And they blew through $8 trillion in four years, Willie. Such hypocrisy. It is. I think your efforts were better spent on those orphans than on the Freedom Caucus. It was a noble, a noble try. Yeah,

there seems to be some glee from the Freedom Caucus publicly about the potential for a shutdown, that they have the power to do that, saying that, yeah, maybe we'll be headed for a 10-day shutdown. Very cavalier with this to put pressure on Kevin McCarthy. And so, Jonathan Lemire, as you look at the way this dynamic is playing out with Kevin McCarthy on the House floor being told you are out of compliance by members of the Freedom Caucus. How does this get resolved? How do we keep the government open when he doesn't seem to have any power over most of his members? Yeah, McCarthy was betting that if he opened the door to the impeachment inquiry of President Biden, that would placate some on the hard right who

were already upset with him about the debt ceiling deal he struck with the White House earlier this year and who are upset at the idea of having to sign off on this spending bill to keep the government open this fall and winter. Well, McCarthy was wrong. These members of the Freedom Caucus, the far right members there, they can't be placated. They don't want to be placated. Many of them have openly said they want the government to shut down. And what we're seeing here from McCarthy is extraordinary frustration reporting each of the last several days about both public and private admonitions he's giving to members of his own party who are suggesting we're not being serious people right now. We need to actually learn to govern. And we're also seeing some unhappiness from other Republicans, even some

who would be deeply called conservatives, but not Freedom Caucus members who say, look, the pain of this is going to be too great. This isn't what we're set here to do. But there isn't an obvious solution here. The Senate, there's a sense that McConnell and the Republicans in the Senate are going to work with the Democrats there to potentially even jam up the House. But it's unclear how much pressure they'll actually put on McCarthy. McConnell has been far more hands off these days than he's ever been before. He took a real backseat in the debt ceiling deal. And, of course, questions remain about his health. The White House is watching this.

They don't want the government to shut down. They do believe that if it were to, Republicans would get the majority of the political blame. But of course, that's risky, too, because if there is an economic slowdown and we have the Treasury secretary coming up later today who could talk about this, well, some of that's going to come back on a president who, of course, is running for re-election and the healthy economy is issue number one. So before we go to break, let's preview the fact that President Biden's going to be speaking at the U.N. General Assembly in New York City today. Katie Kay, obviously, this comes amidst the ongoing war in Ukraine, the debate over climate

change and what to do about it, pandemics and and other global issues. But only President Biden, among the leaders of five permanent members of the Security Council, that's the U.S., Russia, China, France and Britain, are going to be there. What do you make of these no-shows? Yeah, it does make it a little bit of a scale down United Nations General Assembly. And it also raises questions, I guess, about how relevant this meeting is. It is important for Ukraine, obviously, and Zelensky is in New York. We saw the pictures of him earlier visiting

Ukrainian soldiers in New York hospitals, and he is going to be there desperately trying to rally the world's countries to make sure they keep up the efforts supporting Ukraine with this offensive that is not going as fast as many would have liked. But I think the important audience really for Joe Biden is the domestic U.S. audience. You know, you see the polls that show that 70% of Republicans don't want the U.S. to send any more money to Ukraine.

The numbers of Democrats who don't want to carry on financing Ukraine is growing as well. So Joe Biden up there, perhaps not so much of a focus on the international audience that he has, but a very keen focus on the domestic audience that he has, but a very keen focus on the domestic audience, trying to keep Americans on board and make that case once again, that this is in America's best interest, because if Russia manages to take Ukraine, the message to China is that it can take other countries. The message to any rogue actor is

that they can go ahead and invade any other country. And that would impact potentially America's own national security. Well, I will say this, Elise, and again, you can borrow on your your State Department experience here. But maybe it's just a politician in me. But I want a room to myself. Right. I want to be able to lobby all the non-aligned members myself. I don't want to be tripping over Putin or Xi or anybody else. I want to be able, because right now there is a real battle with these non-aligned nations. I want to give them as much time as they need. I want to spend as much time with them. I want to explain to them why Ukraine's important. I want to explain to them why we're there for them. And so there are two ways of looking at this. If you're in

the media and you like a big show and fireworks, awesome. But if you want to get work done with non-aligned nations, this is a pretty good opportunity for American diplomats. You know, Joe, and it's an opportunity for all nations, big and small, to be able to say something. And you know as well as anyone what Truman intended when he launched the first session in 1946 of the U.N. General Assembly.

And I just think as the years have gone on, there are certain presidents and certain moments that had been really big, like when President Eisenhower in 53 laid out what the American atomic warfare policy was going to be. And then you have President Bush after 9-11 addressing the assembly. You have Reagan talking about tyranny. And just unfortunately, I think in this age of social media, the power of a huge speech has been diminished and you just don't see

those moments happening and those leaders really necessarily coming out for that moment. And I wish that they still would show up, though, and focus on what happens behind the scenes with all those counterparts that they probably aren't going to see in any other room for the entire year. All right. We'll be following this throughout the day and still ahead on Morning Joe. As expected, Donald Trump will not be on the stage next week for the second Republican presidential debate. We'll tell you what he has planned and why his event is getting some pushback. Plus, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis once praised COVID vaccines at the height of the pandemic.

He actually... He was Mr. Vaccine. He took cameras into a senior citizen's place and said, I am so proud to deliver to you a vaccine. He was Mr. Vaccine.

What's changed? Has something changed? Well, since then, he's been on what seems to be an anti-vax crusade. Really? What happened? I'm so confused.

I don't really get it. Like, this is a guy who also said he's with Tommy Tuberville, that he wants to damage the military's readiness and stop the Marines from having a commandant. And Mr. Six Week Abortion Ban. Fantastic Florida. We'll have his latest comments that go against CDC guidelines. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back. YouTube is blocking Russell Brand from making money off its platform after rape and sexual

assault allegations against the comedian actor. The online platform says Brand violated its creator responsibility policy. Brand has a major following on YouTube with more than 6.6 million subscribers. Meanwhile, the three remaining dates of Brand's comedy tour in the UK have been postponed. Last Friday, Brand denied the claims on his YouTube channel and said his relationships all have been consensual. On Sunday, his management agency announced it had dropped Brand as a client. Republican frontrunner Donald Trump skipping the next primary debate once again will attempt his own counterprogramming. The former president planning to travel to Detroit on September 27th to give a primetime speech before current and former union members.

It comes as thousands of autoworkers are currently on strike against General Motors, Ford and Stellantis. The Trump campaign even considering having Trump make an appearance on the picket lines. But the United Autoworkers Union is not welcoming the move, writing in a statement, quote, Every fiber of our union is being poured into fighting the billionaire class and an economy that enriches people like Donald Trump at the expense of workers. We can't keep electing billionaires and millionaires that don't have any understanding what it's like to live paycheck to paycheck. So Sean Fain, Joe, the president of the UAW, has been publicly critical, not just recently, but in the past of Donald Trump, has not endorsed the union, has not endorsed Joe Biden as yet

in this case. Jonathan, actually, I'll kick this to you. And so Donald Trump in his Meet the Press interview on Sunday went after the leadership of the UAW. So there is a personal element to this. But again, Donald Trump trying to do something to create his own show away from the debate, just as he did last time. Yeah, this is a real general election play by Donald Trump on two levels. First of all, to suggest, hey, I'm too big to even participate in the Republican primary debates.

I don't need to. I skipped the last one. My poll numbers only went up. By some measures, he's up 40, 50 points on the next highest Republican. So he's sending that signal. But he's also making a move here about the November 2024 map. Of course, that's Michigan. That's Detroit. These are union workers.

And yes, you were right. Sean Fain on our air a couple of weeks ago, the head of the UAW, was deeply critical of Donald Trump. He was again in that statement. It's clear that the leadership of that union is not going to back Trump. But Trump people in his orbit believe that a lot of rank and file just might. They feel like these are working class voters, white working class voters, where Trump has had some success. We know the UAW has not backed President Biden just yet, although most other unions have. They certainly anticipate.

White House officials tell me they think that they will. The president has also spoken very positively about the striking workers there. But, Joe, this is an interesting maneuver by Trump to sort of put forth what's going to be a central conflict, electoral conflict, as we head into next fall. Yeah, I mean, union workers have traditionally they've organized Democratic and they voted Republican a lot. Working class voters have voted. I even remember going back to back to when I was running in 96. I was attacking unions that were attacking some of my friends in other races. And a guy came in to me, was fixing my phone. And he said,

hey, Congressman, if you just keep your mouth shut, you're going to get everybody's vote in the union. I was like, yes, sir. And there was an eye opener for me. But, Katie, that was the play Donald Trump made in 2016. You'll remember near the end of the campaign, they moved forward with really, really populist messaging at the end of the campaign. And he even met with a couple of, I think, still worker unions at the beginning of his presidency. I thought that was the direction that he might be going in. It would cause a real problem for Democrats. But then, of course, he had the biggest giveaways to billionaires ever with his Trump tax cuts, and he never looked back. But this meeting and this push is absolutely critical if he wants to win back Wisconsin,

Michigan and Pennsylvania. Yeah, he knows where these races are going to be won or lost and where his chances of winning the White House, potentially even of staying out of jail, are going to be won or lost and where his chances of winning the White House, potentially even of staying out of jail, are going to be won or lost. And it's up in those states which are heavily union. I have a really clear memory of in Ohio in 2016 of spending time in a steel town in northern Ohio and talking to union members who had been lifelong Democrats, lifelong union members, and had switched parties in order to vote for Donald Trump because they so liked his populist message. They liked the anti-China message. They liked the fact that Donald Trump broke with Republican economic orthodoxy and said that he

was going to shore up the welfare programs that they liked, the social safety net that they liked. So there's a lot about Donald Trump that I imagine that they could still find appealing. And it's a bold move to be going to Michigan in the middle of this strike. But it's not one that's uncharacteristic of him. Yeah. And at least, you know, through your focus groups that people are so less ideological than we on TV claim they are. Our people in the news tried to put them into into a box. I've retold this story time and again about your Trump voter in Georgia that when you brought up abortion said, wait a second, I'm a man. Why would I be concerned with that? I said, oh, OK, there's a great example. But another great example is the fact that, you know, the New York Times and other outlets reported near the end of the 2016 campaign about the Trump Sanders voters, people who would have voted for Bernie Sanders if he had made it through the of Bobby Kennedy's campaign in 68 switched to George Wallace after Bobby was shot.

You see those moments where these issues on the far right, the far left, they just cross cut. And then those voters come together. And sometimes when you have voters in focus groups who are shifting from, you know, say, being a Hillary voter in 2016 to then going to Donald Trump in 2020, you say that they're confused. They've gotten radicalized with the Trump Sanders voters. You saw where Donald Trump really tapped into something that other Republican leaders hadn't understood, that the populist forces taking over the party, that that was the emerging future of the party. And, you know, his speech, choosing to do that counter program and to, you know, be pro-auto workers in Detroit, that is a good move for Donald Trump. It separates him from the rest of the Republican pact. It makes him look more more less business friendly and less

for CEOs pay and more for the rank and file man. You look at how J.D. Vance has just chosen to write an op ed in support of the workers. This is a dramatic shift from where elite Republicans have been for so long. And Donald Trump is really just continuing to firm up his grasp on that part of the Republican electorate. Absolutely. Coming up on Morning Joe, Sweden is making plans to boost military spending as part of its efforts to join NATO. But its membership has been delayed as two NATO countries signal possible objections to allowing Sweden in. We'll talk to the Swedish Minister of Foreign Affairs about the setback and how it impacts security in Europe. That's just ahead on Morning Joe.

46 past the hour. Welcome back to Morning Joe. The United Nations General Assembly will see hundreds of world leaders gather today to discuss a variety of issues affecting international relations. NATO's commitment to the war in Ukraine. One wild card in all of this is Sweden and the question of if and when its bid to join NATO will be complete. To join the alliance, every current member state must agree to a new country's membership. Sweden is still waiting for their membership to be ratified by Hungary and Turkey. However, leaders in both countries have recently raised new concerns. Turkish President Erdogan spoke to PBS yesterday regarding Sweden's NATO membership. Take a listen. So to be clear, I don't hear you committing that this is something you see them taking up anytime soon. For that to be happening, of course, Sweden should keep its promises. Terrorist organizations should immediately stop their demonstrations on the streets of Stockholm, and they should

stop their activities, because seeing this actually happening is going to be very important for the Turkish people. Sweden seemingly carried out legislative amendments, but it's not enough. And with us now, let's bring in the Swedish minister of foreign affairs, Tobias Bildstrom. Minister Bildstrom, thank you so much for being with us. I must say that like most Americans, we are very excited about Sweden becoming members of NATO. Very excited. I am a bit confused, though. What are you supposed to do after Sweden has followed through on the commitments they made to Erdogan? What are you supposed to do about protesters in your street? Does he expect you to ban free speech in Sweden? Well, thank you very much. First of all, I think we have to take into account the fact that the trilateral memorandum signed at the NATO summit last year was fulfilled.

We fulfilled every commitment within that and that was acknowledged at the NATO summit in Vilnius. Otherwise, we wouldn't have had the handshake, which you show in the picture between the Turkish president, the prime minister and the NATO secretary general. And secondly, we believe also that the Vilnius statement that came out means a lot to Turkey. They will get a lot of things out of this statement, not at least the development and installment of an anti-terrorism coordinator, something which they have been fighting for for 10 years. I would find it very curious if they just ditch that.

Very curious. And of course, I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but Hungary's objections even more curious because they don't have a list of demands. Orban, a man who's bragged about illiberal democracy there, a man who suppresses free speech, who erodes the rule of law, is actually just criticizing Sweden because

there are some people in Sweden who actually is encouraging him to be more democratic. But has he actually made any demands of Sweden? No, he hasn't. And it's worth noting that Hungary at the summit in Madrid last year accepted to give Sweden the status as invitee to NATO without any preconditions. So right now, we rather expect that if there is white smoke coming out from Ankara, there's definitely going to be white smoke coming out from Budapest as well. So, Mr. Minister, obviously, Sweden is bidding to join NATO because of what happened in Ukraine, Russia's invasion there. As the UN General Assembly gathers this week in New York, what is your sense of commitment from member states here to backing Kyiv, especially as the counteroffensive has really slowed down and there's a sense this war could drag on for years?

You're quite right that since the war is going to take a long time, we're in for that. We also have to prepare ourselves accordingly. And I think we should do that by backing Ukraine in every possible way, economically, politically, militarily, financially. And we should do that, and humanitarian as well. And we are doing it. Sweden is increasing our budgetary support to Ukraine, making it the largest receiver of Swedish aid ever in history. But also we should give acknowledgement to the

efforts made by the American people. The fact that without US military support, Ukraine wouldn't have been lasted. And we need to step up in the European Union with our efforts. However, I should also say that the financial support provided by the EU to Ukraine has made it possible for Ukraine to survive as a state with the administration running, the salaries being paid. But we should do more on the military side and we should give proper acknowledgement to the American people for all the financial efforts in military ways provided to Ukraine. Mr. Bilstrom, in some years, there is a certain issue that is obviously the issue of concern at the UN General Assembly. COVID has dominated the last few years, Ukraine the last two years. In previous years, terrorism, Syria.

What do you think this year? Obviously, the war in Ukraine is still in Russia's aggression is still a huge issue. But what issues do you think are really at the forefront of this year's discussion, trying to reach some positive agreements among members? I think that in the list that you provided, you can find many things which are which are interconnected. And one of the most important things, I think, is to realize what the war that Russia is waging against Ukraine is all about. It is a neocolonial imperial war

and a good old-fashioned imperial war, to what that matters. And we need to show this to the world, what Russia is doing. They are harming food security. They are increasing the risk of famine. They are disrupting supply chains. They're doing a lot of things which are stemming out of this war. And we need to counter the Russian narrative

among countries in Africa and in South America and in Asia that this war is somehow, you know, something which the West has dreamed of. It isn't. It is a good old neocolonial war and something that countries in Africa knows a lot about is colonialism. Minister, I was lucky enough to be in Sweden this summer and I was struck by the degree of unanimity in popular opinion in terms of wanting to join NATO and wanting to help Ukraine. So what more can the country do whilst your NATO membership seems to be being delayed or in limbo a little bit at least? What more can you do? I see that there's discussion about sending Gripen jets to Ukraine. Do you think that might happen?

Do you think it might happen soon? Could it happen in time to help the Ukrainians with this current offensive? Yes. When President Zelensky visited Sweden just a few weeks ago, I was there and I stood at the press conference when our prime minister and the president made their speeches. And yes, it is true. We are now training fighter pilots, Ukrainian fighter pilots, to be ready for the moment they can use the Gripen air fighters. And we do not rule out anything in this regard. We have also provided the archer artillery system, the CV-90s, armored vehicles,

and we're going to do more. And we're also going to step up on our own defence spending. We're going to reach next year, 2024, with the budget, which is now proposed to Parliament, the 2% spending ratio provided by NATO. So we are fully prepared for NATO membership. And we will come with well-trained forces and well-equipped troops. We will come with the capabilities in cyber, in new technology, and with space technology, being the only one of two countries within the EU with the ability to

launch satellites, the other one being France. Helping Ukraine is a long-term commitment from Sweden's side. And, you know, a failure in Ukraine, seeing Russia win, would mean the end of a rule-based world order which Sweden cares a lot about. It would mean that countries like Moldova and Georgia is next on the list, and who knows where we will end up after that. So a failure for Ukraine is not on as long as we have something to say about it. Swedish Minister of Foreign Affairs Tobias Billström, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. We appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you very much.