Morning Joe - Morning Joe 9/23/24

Episode Date: September 23, 2024

Poll: Newly popular Harris builds momentum, challenging Trump for the mantle of change

In Springfield, they're eating the dogs, the people that came in. They're eating the cats. They're eating... They're eating the pets of the people that live there. Yeah, that was Donald Trump accusing Haitian immigrants of killing and eating people's pets. And can you even remember a time when something like that would have been disqualifying? Because I can't anymore.

Republicans have now nominated Trump three times. Democrats have so far lost to him half the time. And this election is still inexplicably close qualifying because I can't anymore. Republicans have now nominated Trump three times. Democrats have so far lost to him half the time. And this election is still inexplicably close because, unfortunately, some Americans watched that and thought, I don't like how Kamala laughed when he called immigrants dog eaters. That wasn't very presidential. Wow. Good morning and welcome. That sums it up. Good morning, Joe. It sure does. It is Monday, September 23rd. With us, we have the host of Way Too Early, White House Bear Chief at Politico, Jonathan Lemire, and NBC News National Affairs Analyst and a partner and chief political columnist at Puck,

John Heilman. Good to have you with us this morning. We have six weeks to go until Election Day. And there's new NBC News polling out showing a major shift in the 2024 race. In the latest survey, Vice President Kamala Harris leads former President Donald Trump by five points, 49 percent to 44 percent among registered voters nationwide. Although that result is within the margin of error, it marks a change from the previous NBC News poll conducted back in July, where Trump led President Joe Biden by two points. Since then, Harris has nearly doubled Biden's lead over Trump with women voters, going from 11 points to 21 points. Harris's favorability rating has also soared since July, with 48 percent of voters now saying they view her positively compared to 32 percent in the last poll. Trump's favorability has essentially stayed the same since July, with 40 percent viewing him positively now. Despite being the sitting vice president,

Harris leads Trump by nine points when voters were asked which candidate better represents change. And when asked which candidate they trust more to handle top issues, Trump still leads in most areas, though by smaller margins than in a January poll.

Voters trust Trump by 21 points on immigration, by nine points on the economy and by six points on handling crime. Harris, meanwhile, is trusted more to handle abortion rights by 21 points after Biden led by 12 in January. Joining us now, NBC News senior political editor Mark Murray. Mark, take us through this. These polls are consistent with a lot of other polls that have shown big momentum in Kamala Harris's direction. Of course, they're always outliers. In 2012, we had Gallup throughout the race saying that Romney was going to beat Obama by 11 points. This year, we have the New York Times-Siena poll, which is an outlier.

But this NBC poll goes with almost every other poll that shows the wind at Harris' back. Why is that? Yeah, Joe, you know, basically our poll ends up showing this is a transformed race. And the last time that we were in the field was back in July. And, of course, so much has happened. Democrats have a new candidate at the top of the ticket. You've had two presidential conventions, two vice presidential selections, a presidential debate just a couple of weeks ago. And our poll shows that this is a changed race.

But two things can be true. This can be a changed race where the Democrats now have a little bit of a win at their backs, but it also can be very, very close. And Joe, one of the things when you have Kamala Harris more popular than Donald Trump, you end up having Democrats leading on our ballot. You end up having Democrats with a slight lead in congressional ballot. That looks a whole lot like October of 2020 when Joe Biden was running against Donald Trump the very end of that race, according to our poll. And as we all know, that turned out to be a very close race. And so Democrats should feel very good about this poll and a lot of others that are consistent with those findings. But also, I think we should also

get ready for another very close election. So, Mark, let's dig into some of these numbers here. I was really struck by this. How Harris's favorability has jumped 16 points since July, which is the largest increase for any politician in NBC News polling since George W. Bush got a surge after 9-11. That just speaks how the voters are just viewing her so differently now. It's the biggest jump in 35 odd years. But so talk to us a little bit about that, but also drill deep for us about certain key voting blocks. How is she faring in the groups that many people will decide this election?

Sort of women and voters of color and the young voters. Yeah, you know, Jonathan, you know, you mentioned our poll ends up showing that 16 point rise in her favorability. That's larger. That's the largest since George W. Bush after 9-11. And when we're talking about a candidate from a major party in a presidential contest, we've never had numbers like that in our 35 year history of our NBC News poll. And so, you know, again, that just shows you how she is transformed, too, since July. And of course, her ratings since her vice presidency pretty much mirrored what we ended up seeing from President Biden. But her being at the

top of the ticket, she is now in a different place, not only that Biden was in, but also where Donald Trump is in popularity. And Jonathan, when we look at the key voting blocs who have moved in this, it is black voters. It is women in those and also, importantly, young voters to Harris is doing better with those groups than Joe Biden was doing in July. And that's reflected in our overall ballot score. Hey, Mark, it's John Heilman here. You know, we talk a lot about Harris's movement here. And obviously, as you said, the race is transformed it mostly by in terms of her versus Joe Biden. Talk a little bit about Donald Trump and whether what we see in these numbers is, again, kind of consistent, as Joe said, with what the other polling,

which is that Trump seems to kind of have, if you look at it, kind of the big takeaway to me is it looks like we know where Donald Trump stands with this electorate. And he may have kind of hit a ceiling across a lot of different vectors here. Just talk about that. Yeah, you know, John, what our poll has shown over the course of the last two years is how Donald Trump's ballot number really hasn't changed. It's been in this 45, 46, 47 percent range in every track that we've done going back to 2023. And what has moved is been first Joe Biden's numbers. And now we end up having Kamala Harris. But, John, it's also important to note, again, that with all the kind of the ups and downs, the changes in our poll, this remains a margin of error contest. But we have seen time and time again where Donald Trump, you know, that 46, 47 percent of figures that matched his popular vote in 2016,

it matched his popular vote in 2020. And it really kind of hasn't budged much. And it's important to remember in 2016, 46, 47 percent became a winning number, particularly in key battleground states, because of the size of third party vote. This time around, this is looking a whole lot more like 2020, where that third party vote is much smaller, where in key states, you might have to get 49, 50 percent to be able to win. All right, NBC News senior political editor Mark Murray, thank you so much. Greatly appreciated. Fascinating numbers. John Heilman, I'm curious, you look at the poll, Mark used the word a transformed race, and it certainly is a transformed race. If you again, if you look at every poll, almost every poll that's out there, except, say, for the New York Times-Siena poll, which, again, is very consistent with where Gallup was in 2012 throughout the entire campaign,

saying that Mitt Romney was going to be the next president of the United States. So you look at the move of all of these polls, and it is transformed. And this NBC poll shows she's doing extremely well. And yet, if you talk to both campaigns, they will still tell you this race isn't, in fact, a tie. Are you are you comfortable saying, OK, it may be a tie, but it is a tie that is definitely leaning Harris's way. I think I put it this way, Joe, which is that if you looked at all these numbers and you and you talked to the campaigns, I think you would hear that it's a margin of error race. And that's slightly different than a tide race. And that that and that and that that you can you know, if you played out scenarios, there's, you know, there's a slightly Harris at this point, I would think most people would agree it was maybe a little bit over 50 percent

chance of winning the race. And Trump has a little under 50. And this is kind of a little bit of an any given Sunday kind of a situation where, you know, no one at this point is comfortable. This is also a national poll. Right. And so the campaigns are not are not paying attention to polling like this anymore. They are looking at battleground state polling.

They are looking at those numbers. And I think they all think that all the battleground states are within the margin of error. I think they would also say, and Jonathan, I think you probably hear this in your reporting too, which is what the Harris campaign would say precisely is, we know this is going to be really close, but we would rather play our hand over these next six weeks than their hand in terms of the money we have, the resources we have on the ground, and the candidate quality that we have. We would rather be us than them, but we understand that it's going to be really tight. Yeah, that's exactly it. They feel pretty good about where

they are. It's a margin of error race. And we're certainly hearing from the Harris team using the word underdog a lot in all their fundraising appeals, trying to motivate Democrats. Hey, we need you to keep donating. We need you to be out there volunteering. Don't get overconfident. They feel pretty good about her multiple paths to victory, which is certainly something that President Biden, when he was atop the ticket, did not have. He only had that one Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania.

Harris is able to play in the Sun Belt. They feel much better about North Carolina now, particularly because of the implosion of the Republican gubernatorial candidate there, which we'll get to later this morning. One of the things that is striking, though, is how steady Donald Trump's support has been this year. That, yes, he certainly sort of hit his ceiling, but he hasn't really fallen any. He's more popular this time around than he was in 2016 or 2020, which is sort of remarkable when you come to think about it, Joe Amiga, considering all that he has done in the last eight years. But that's where we are right now, is that both these candidates are about the same place. Trend lines, though, even though it's a margin of error race,

trend lines do favor Harris. And that's why her team feels better about where she is heading in these six weeks. But, man, it is going to be close. Well, the trendlines in just about every poll, except for one or two outliers, certainly do break her way. I want to ask you all, based on your reporting, if you're hearing what I'm hearing, let me first of all, let's break down these swing states. And, John Heilman, I'll start with you. This is what I'm hearing right now from the campaigns. Michigan, the Harris campaign feels good about Michigan, Wisconsin, North Carolina and Nevada. They know North Carolina and Nevada are still close, but they're feeling good about those states. Pennsylvania and Georgia,

toss up. It's just just an absolute toss up. Neither side's going to tell you they're going to they're going to win or lose those. And right now, the Harris campaign would say they have a lot of work to be done in Arizona. The Trump campaign feeling good about Arizona. What are you hearing, John? I think that's basically right, Joe. I'd say that all of those are basically what I hear. I would also, the few amendments that I'd make, add-ons to those, are that Wisconsin, Michigan is easily, of the three blue wall states, the one where the Harris campaign feels most comfortable. And in descending order, Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania. The Wisconsin electorate kind of weirds people out a little bit, because it is now the oldest, most aging,

and whitest of those three states. And so, they worry a little bit about the fact that those numbers have given her... They can look at the numbers, and they feel strong. But Wisconsin makes people, of those three blue wall states, makes them seem the numbers and they feel strong. But Wisconsin makes people, of those three blue wall states, makes them seem a little bit out of whack. Pennsylvania, everyone assumes, is going to be crazy close. And we won't know the answer to there until about a week after Election Day, probably. And they're not feeling super confident about Georgia. And I don't know if you mentioned that one. North Carolina, obviously, the Mark Robinson thing is breaking in a way that they like. I think Arizona, because of the abortion initiative that's on the ballot,

though they're not in the strongest position and they do have work to do there, they think they can do that work there because the abortion initiative opens up a pathway that could make Arizona very close and kind of tilting back towards Harris' direction again. Yeah, my reporting largely lines up with that. A few additional notes. It is. Harris team does feel best about Michigan, which is striking considering like six months ago, we thought Michigan was the blue wall state slipping away because of the war in Gaza and how that might affect the Muslim and Arab American population there. That's not been the case. They feel good about Michigan. Wisconsin, to John's point, they know is close, but they feel like they're up a little bit. Pennsylvania, by far. Pennsylvania is the state that keeps Democrats up at night. They feel

like this is going to be the hardest of those states to win. It is not impossible, but it's difficult for her to get a path through 70 without Pennsylvania. They worry about some of the older white voters there, expect to see President Biden camp out in Pennsylvania in the next couple of weeks, trying to help her get across the finish line. They're also going to need big turnouts there in Pittsburgh and Philadelphia and those suburbs. North Carolina, as just noted, they're feeling a lot better about. Georgia, they think, is more or less tied. Maybe they're down a little, but they recognize it's going to be harder this time around than in 2020. They feel like 2020 got to the Democratic column a little ahead of schedule for Georgia. And then the last two, I would just say this.

Arizona is the one that I think Democrats are actually a little disappointed by. They thought because of that abortion measure, they'd have more of a shot there. They're not ruling it out by any means, but that's the one that is the hardest that it looks like for them. Nevada, the polling's not great for Democrats, but there's sort of this belief that at the end of the day, Nevada always looks hard for Democrats. And at the end, it snaps into place by a point or two. So there's some real hope that that could happen again. But I'll flag one more thing. The path to 270 that President Biden got and was going to have to get was Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin. And then that one vote out of Nebraska, that congressional district in Omaha. And we're seeing the Republicans here just six weeks out

trying yet again to change the law there. So Nebraska could be winner take all, depriving Democrats of that one vote. There's a sense they likely won't be successful, but that's something to keep an eye on, too. Of the many challenges for the Harris campaign, there are two big false narratives about Vice President Kamala Harris being pushed by the anti-anti-Trump universe and some in the mainstream media. One is that Donald Trump might be bad, but Harris won't tell the American people where she stands on the issues. The other is the both side isms when it comes to violent rhetoric. We're going to break down both. We're going to start with the first false narrative, the but the issues crowd. Take a look at how MSNBC host of the 11th hour, Stephanie Ruhl, picked that argument apart

on Friday night. It's not too much to ask Kamala, say, are you for a Palestinian state if Hamas is going to run that state? Okay. Yes or no? And let's say you don't like her answer. Are you going to vote for Donald Trump? No, I'm not. I just said I'm not going to vote for him.

Kamala Harris is not running for perfect. She's running against Trump. We have two choices. And so there are some things you might not know her answer to. And in 2024, unlike 2016, for a lot of the American people, we know exactly what Trump will do, who he is and the kind of threat he is to democracy. I don't know. It's unclear to me how there could be an informed. The problem that a lot of people have with Kamala is we don't know her answer to anything.

OK, you know, and I think everything. And that's why I would never vote for him and people shouldn't vote for him. But people also are expected to have some idea of what the program is of the person you're supposed to vote for. You're just not supposed to say, well, you have to vote for Y because X is this, that and the other. Let's find out a little bit more. And I don't think it's a lot to ask her to sit down for a real interview as opposed to a tough piece in which she describes her feelings of growing up in Oakland with nice laws. Ben, I would just say to that, when you move to Nirvana, give me your real estate broker's number and I'll be your next door neighbor. We don't live there. That really is. And I like Brett and I like Bill Maher said he's a fan of

what he reads, but I don't know what universe he lives in. He actually said we don't know her answer to anything. That's just that's just false. It's just false. He hasn't he obviously hasn't been watching the campaign. And again, I know you're going to get into this, but compare what she said. And again, we can go through the issues with Donald Trump. Yeah. Whether it's that rambling answer on child care, whether it was a nonsensical answers during the debate. And by the way, she wants to debate again. Donald Trump doesn't because he doesn't answers during the debate. And by the way, she wants to debate again. Donald Trump doesn't because he doesn't talk about the issues. He can't talk about the issues. But again,

there's this false equivalency from the anti-anti-Trump crowd and also from the mainstream media. She served as a senator, as a prosecutor, as an attorney general and the vice president. She also has a record. She has a record. She is something you can compare to Trump. Last week, Los Angeles Bureau chief for The New York Times, Todd Purdom, wrote an op ed piece for the paper where he mocked Harris for telling her life story in an interview with a local TV station in Philadelphia in response to a question about bringing down prices and making life more affordable for people. Purdom criticized Harris for talking about how she was a middle class kid who grew up in a community of construction workers, nurses and teachers who were very proud of their lawn

and how her mother saved to buy her family's first house and paid tribute to a neighbor who became a surrogate parent. She praised the beautiful character of the American people. And only then, after nearly two minutes, he writes, did Ms. Harris outline her plan. But the vice president has been outlining her plan for weeks. Here are some examples. When people work hard and have a dream of buying a home,

we should give you the opportunity to be able to do that, which is why part of my plan is for first-time homeowners, buyers, to have a $25,000 down payment assistance to buy your first home. Because people just need to be able to get their foot in the door, and then you'll do the hard work. Part of my plan is to give startup small businesses a $50,000 tax deduction to start up their small business. Right now it's $5,000. Nobody can start a small business with $5,000. So that's part of my plan. Because here's the thing. We know that we have a shortage of homes and housing,

and the cost of housing is too expensive for far too many people. We know that young families need support to raise their children, and I intend on extending a tax cut for those families of $6,000, which is the largest child tax credit that we have given in a long time, so that those young families can afford to buy a crib, buy a car seat, buy clothes for their children. We are going to work with the private sector and home builders to increase 3 million homes, increase by 3 million homes by the end of my first term. All right. To Stephanie's point, you don't like the answer. Is that enough for you? What you need to do is compare that to direct questions. Donald Trump has been asked on how he would handle various issues, including bringing down the cost of child care,

water conservation in California and threats to manufacturing in Michigan. Take a listen. Can you commit to prioritizing legislation to make child care affordable? And if so, what specific piece of legislation will you advance? Well, I would do that. And we're sitting down, you know, I was somebody, we had Senator Marco Rubio and my daughter Ivanka was so impactful on that issue. It's a very important issue. But I think when you talk about the kind of numbers that I'm talking about, that because the child care is child care, it's couldn't, you know, there's something you have to have it in this country, you have to have it. But when you talk about those numbers compared to the

kind of numbers that I'm talking about by taxing foreign nations at levels that they're not used to. But they'll get used to it very quickly. And it's not going to stop them from doing business with us. But they'll have a very substantial tax when they send product into our country. Those numbers are so much bigger than any numbers that we're talking about, including child care. So you have millions of gallons of water pouring down from the north with the snow caps and Canada and all pouring down.

And they have essentially a very large faucet. And you turn the faucet and it takes one day to turn it. It's massive. It's as big as the wall of that building right there behind you. And you turn that and all of that water goes into the

aimlessly into the pacific and if they turned it back all of that water would come right down here and right into los angeles they wouldn't have to have people not use more than 30 gallons and 32 gallons they want to do that you know they're trying to do that and you have so much water and all those fields that are right now barren, the farmers would have all the water they needed. And you could revert water up into the hills where you have all the dead forests, where the forests are so brittle. What do you see as the major threats to the future of Michigan manufacturing, auto working jobs and what will you do to eliminate those threats sir? Okay so I'll get into another a little bit of a long answer

because when you say major threat to me we have one really major threat that's called nuclear weapons. We call we have other countries that are hostile to us they don't have to be hostile to us. I always say, if you have a smart president, you'll never have a problem with China, Russia, or any of them, okay? I got along great with Putin. I got along great with President Xi. I got along great with Kim Jong-un of North Korea.

Everybody said, oh, you can't get along with him. He liked me. I got along great with him, and he has a lot of nuclear force. But you essentially have five countries, and you're going to have more. Whether you like it or not, you're going to have more. It's the single biggest threat to the world, not only Michigan, to the world. And you're not going to care so much about making cars if that stuff starts happening. He can't give a straight answer and he

devolves into nonsensical ramblings. That raises a lot of questions. That last question, that last answer about that rambling was about bringing manufacturing back to Michigan. The previous question, the big faucet takes a day to turn. It's about water conservation. That first question, the long rambling question about child care. I mean, his answer, nonsensical. That's always the case. No answers. And John Heilman, Amika is going to get to the false equivalence.

He's on violent rhetoric, which actually, believe it or not, is even worse. But something's happening out there where people are trying to flatten. And it's not just the anti anti Trumpers. It's also people in the mainstream media. They're going, yes, Donald Trump, he's saying all of these crazy things. But did you did you see that? And there were two there are two people this weekend with significant columns going. But did you see her answer to the local Philadelphia question where she actually gave a three point answer? And she talked about, you know, fifty thousand dollars for startup small businesses. She talked about tax breaks, twenty five thousand dollar tax breaks for first

time homebuyers. She talked about a a private investment partnership that would help create the building of three million new jobs. Those are specific answers to specific questions. And yet two people, one at The Wall Street Journal, one at The New York Times, were like, did you hear her talking about her background and her middle class? And then they go, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. She got to the policy questions later, but she never tells us anything about anything. Actually, that's just a lie. It's an absolute lie.

And it also ignores what politicians have been doing for hundreds of years. When somebody asked me about jobs, I always started talking about my father at 40 years old, losing his job, being laid off at Lockheed. I talked about driving around the South. My entire family, when I was seven or eight, sitting in the backseat, my dad going to town, to town, to town, trying to find a job so he could support the family. And I kept going through it. And then I went in by saying, and that's why the greatest social policy is a job. And these are the three things we're going to do to create a job. Nobody mocked me. Nobody's ever mocked a politician for actually talking about their background and how it

influences their policy. But now, as we get in the homestretch, the anti-anti-Trumpers who just can't admit they are going to vote for a man who tried to overthrow American democracy, who did what they did on January 6th. They're desperately trying to create the permission structure so they can vote for a man who said he was going to terminate the Constitution, that the chairman of the Joint Chiefs should be executed, that he told his staff members that Mike Pence deserved to be hanged. I could go down the list. I could do it for hours. Whose lawyers, own lawyers, said he could kill his political opponents using SEAL Team six and could not be prosecuted for it, could not be prosecuted while he was in the White House. I could go down all of those lists, but they're they're looking at an interview where Kamala Harris gives the answer, they just say, oh, but she told her life story at the beginning of that Philadelphia interview.

Like no, no politician. It's Ronald Reagan. Did Ronald Reagan do that? Did Barack Obama? Yeah, damn straight. They did. Did Bill Clinton tell stories? Yeah, damn straight.

This is absolutely insane. The false equivalency. You see it from Brad Stevens. You see it. You see the Wall Street Journal. You see the New York Times. It's insane. The false equivalencies they are desperately pushing at the end of this campaign. Well, and I just would add a couple of things that, Joe, one of which is that, you know, all a lot of these same writers and individuals have just within the last few weeks have commented that Kamala Harris is new, and we don't really know who she is. She needs to introduce herself to the American people. And so the notion that she's trying to strike a balance between discussing her positions on issues and continuing to talk about her biography to the

American people is kind of not just, as you say, standard issue politics, but you could argue is even more essential for her and that people who are covering this understand that, understand that she is still, you know, if you look at these polls, you see a lot of people still have questions. Who is this person? Where did she come from? How do you connect her biography, her political history to her current policy positions. That's telling the story of the full person is one of the top priorities that she has in her campaign. And one of the things that a lot of Americans want to hear from her is how do her values connect to her policy positions. I think that the other issue here, and I think it is fair for people to continue to ask questions, some of which she has not fully addressed, about how she has made some policy changes. Shifts of recent vintage from her positions in 2019, 2020, to her positions now, where she's moved from very progressive positions to more mainstream or more moderate positions that she has done in the course of becoming the nominee.

And she has not fully accounted for. However, to get away from false equivalencies here, the string of flip-flops that Donald Trump has been guilty of in the last, I'm not talking about the fact that I think that Donald Trump's mental acuity here is declining precipitously and that we should hold him to account for that. And we should continue to talk about the ways in which he seems, just as Joe Biden did to a lot of people, mentally diminished, forgetful, deranged, losing his train of thought, incoherent, babbling, all of that. I think we have to focus on that.

But we also just have to look at on policy, what Trump has said on abortion, on a lot of economic policy issues, on some of these small business issues where he sees Harris stealing a march on him in terms of tax policy. He has been all over the map since she got in. And I think if you're going to talk about it, Harris is shifting positions. You also have to look at the place where Trump has flip flopped or changed his positions without explanation over the course of the last weeks. And we're not doing that either. He's jumped on abortion time after time after time. And again, seriously, you're going to talk about Kamala Harris on issues?

Yeah. You're going to compare Kamala Harris on issues negatively to Donald Trump, not just this campaign, but over the past nine years being ill-equipped to answer any question that he's asked a question about manufacturing and bringing it back to Michigan. And he talks about Kim Jong-un. Nuclear war. Nuclear war. OK. He's talked about why he's talking about water conservation in California. He talks about a big faucet that takes an entire day to turn. And we all know about child. So seriously, do you have no shame? Do you really have no shame? Are you so desperate

to not vote for Kamala Harris that you will actually twist and contort yourself so badly that you undermine decades of good work? Because that's what's happening right now. And we can see through you. This is like romper room. I don't have the mirror to hold up, but we see you and we see what you're doing. And if you think that's bad, stick around for the seven o'clock hour when Mika takes us through the lies and the false equivalencies about political violence in America. And there's even a Wall Street Journal writer who's accusing Democrats of killing Donald Trump. Oh, they put a question mark after it. But blaming Democrats for violent rhetoric, for violent rhetoric, and never once mentioning Dan Henninger in your column that Donald Trump inspired January 6th, that Donald Trump stared repeatedly, we learned,

at the most violent moments on January 6th, instead of calling it off that those riots where cops were brutalized because of Donald Trump, brutalized, and four later died, their families say is a direct result of January 6th. Donald Trump called those people that the cops' families say are responsible for their deaths and those people that beat and brutalized cops with American flags, he called them patriots. He said they're hostages.

Has a January 6th choir. He told his legal counsel in the White House that maybe Mike Pence deserved lynching on the day of January the 6th. He said that Mark Milley should be executed for treason. He has used violent rhetoric repeatedly. You try to whitewash it and say it's the Democrats that are responsible for violent rhetoric because they say that Donald Trump may be a threat to American democracy. What do you call January the 6th? Is that a threat to American democracy? Is the intentional, the intentional calling of a mob to go to Capitol Hill and say, I'll be with you.

I'll be right back. I'll be with you. Saying you have to be strong to stop Congress from the constitutional counting of the Electoral College of those votes. Do you not call that a threat to democracy? Do you not call it a threat to democracy when Donald Trump says that he wants to execute the chairman of the Joint Chiefs for treason? Is that not a threat? Saying that your vice president deserves lynching, saying that to your legal counsel on January 6th,

is that not a threat to democracy? Undermining Americans' confidence in voting? When you know, because the Wall Street Journal editorial page has been very clear, and I will say, have done the right thing repeatedly,

calling out Donald Trump's lies when it comes to widespread election fraud. Is that not a threat to democracy? What exactly is a threat? What rises to the threat of democracy that we have ever seen in America since the Civil War, if what Donald Trump has done over the past four years does not. Please give us the permission structure. I know you're desperate for a permission structure not to vote for Kamala Harris and to get people to vote for Donald Trump. The anti-anti-Trumpism, it is something. If they gave out gold medals for it, you'd get it. You would. But please tell me. And this is a question Bill

Moore was asking this weekend correctly. If this is not a threat to American democracy, what we have seen over the past four years, and if that is somehow hate speech that is riling up violent rhetoric, please tell me. Define for me, what is a threat to American democracy? It's certainly not people going around speaking out against January the 6th. It's certainly not people going out speaking out about a presidential candidate and a former president saying he wants the chairman of the Joint Chiefs executed because he was insufficiently disloyal. Is it maybe you think it's Donald Trump's chief of staff who came out and said Donald Trump says he wishes his generals could be like Hitler's generals? Because they were sufficiently loyal. Of course, Donald Trump, not even knowing that the Desert Fox and several others tried to blow him up and kill him.

I mean, it really is. This is insanity. You know, you often hear about silly season. You really we have officially entered silly season when people that I have read and people I have respected and others have read and respected all across the ideological spectrum are shaming themselves right now, are shaming themselves, trying to flatten this race out and trying to make Donald Trump seem normal next to Kamala Harris. And the question I cannot answer, and I guess they will have to answer and regions will have to answer themselves. What is it? What is it that they fear about Kamala Harris so much that they're willing to say, you know what? We've already had four years of Donald Trump and it turned out OK. Oh, did it really?

Talk to the family, the cops who are dead today. Talk to the cops of the families who are dead because of January the 6th. Talk to all the federal judges that had to stand in the gap when Donald Trump was trying, listen to me, trying to undermine democracy and throw out a presidential election. Now, did anything I say there, was anything I say there not true? Would you call that hate speech anything? Anything? No, I didn't think so. It could go on all day and you know it. Stop embarrassing yourself.

Still ahead on Morning Joe, there's been escalating violence across the Middle East as Israel and Hezbollah ramp up their back and forth attacks. We'll have the very latest on the growing tensions overseas. Plus, the United Nations General Assembly gets underway this week. We'll talk about what to expect as world leaders gather in New York City. You're watching Morning Joe. We are back in 90 seconds. 20 minutes before the top of the hour, let's take a look at some of the other stories making headlines this morning. A manhunt is underway for multiple shooters who killed four people and

injured 17 in Birmingham, Alabama. Police say several people pulled up in a vehicle, got out and opened fire along the city's busy nightlife district. Investigators believe the shooters were targeting one person. State and federal data shows drug overdose deaths are decreasing sharply across the country. The 10 percent drop amounts to the largest decrease on record, according to the Biden administration. While researchers credit medication that can reverse overdoses, it's not fully clear what's behind the drop. And the social network X, formerly known as Twitter, says it has taken steps to comply with demands issued by the Brazilian Supreme Court. The court had ordered the company to name a representative in the country and to block accounts accused of

pushing misinformation and undermining Brazilian democracy. Musk's initial refusal to comply had resulted in millions of dollars in fines and the suspension of the social network in one of the world's largest markets. Now to new developments in the Middle East. The Israeli military has started launching a new wave of strikes against Hezbollah. Overnight, the IDF urged civilians in Lebanon to evacuate villages the Iran-backed militia uses for military purposes. It comes as both sides have escalated their attacks. On Friday, Israel struck an eight-story building in a densely populated neighborhood in Beirut, killing several Hezbollah officials, including the head of the group's operations unit. Authorities in Lebanon say at

least 45 people died in the attack. In retaliation, Hezbollah fired 150 missiles and drones at Israel yesterday. Most of the rockets were intercepted by the Israeli military, but at least one hit a residential neighborhood. Fortunately, most people were evacuated from the area in time, and only three people were taken to the hospital. The new barrage of attacks are raising fears that could lead to a bigger conflict as Israel continues to battle Hamas in the south. World leaders, including President Biden, are now urging both sides to show restraint. Let's bring in President Emeritus of the Council on Foreign Relations, Richard Haass,

and author of the weekly newsletter Home and Away, available on Substack. And editor-in-chief of The Economist, Zannie Minton-Bettos. Thank you. Thank you all both for being with us. Richard, the expansion of this war continues. What are the consequences not only for Israel and the region, but the world? You know, it's hard to see the consequences being good. The Israelis, Joe, have established as a national security aim the return of the 60,000 or so Israelis who were moved south of the border with Lebanon to get them to return home.

It's an untenable situation where you have a large chunk of your population that can't go. It's hard to see in the short run how this facilitates that. If anything, it pushes us back. And there's a real debate going on about what's the Israeli strategy is. Is it to was it to preempt a Hamas like October 7th like attack by Hezbollah and Israel? Some intelligence about that. Is it to simply ultimately try to defeat Hezbollah just to try to pound it into it until it disappears? Is it to pound them until they then decide maybe we should make a diplomatic deal with Israel where we have some type of a pullback? Those are all possibilities, though. Again, Hezbollah, if you listen to them and watch them, they seem to be digging in

for something of a long haul. And they've got a lot of weapon systems they could push at Israel. So I come back, you know, in the Middle East, one of the rules, Joe, is things can get worse before they get even worse. And at the moment, I think we're probably going to see that principle reaffirmed. You know, Zannie, it wasn't so many weeks ago that you had the United States, the EU, Arab allies, not only the U.S., but also new Arab allies in Israel. And Israel's defense minister, the intel community, all urging Netanyahu to come to a ceasefire with Hamas. He's gone in the opposite direction. Now we're talking about what appears to be a full scale war with Hezbollah. And one has to suspect if Netanyahu keeps pushing a regional war that finally does draw in, I will say, a reluctant Iran, a reluctant Iran who doesn't mind funding these terrorist groups that kill Americans and Israelis, but they don't want to get involved in a full scale regional war. But

is it not going in that direction? Yeah, it's absolutely going in that direction. And I think the one additional reason I would add to Richard's three reasons for why the Israelis are doing what they're doing is Bibi Netanyahu himself. And I think he is hoping to see a clearer definition of success in Lebanon than he's had in Gaza. And I was in the region in June. I went to Israel, to the West Bank and indeed to Gaza to kind of look at what would be the next stage in Gaza. And it was the most depressing podcast I've ever made. The next, the day after in Gaza is going to be more of what there is now, which is a grim Mogadishu on the Med. It's going to be run by lawless gangs.

It's completely collapsed, flattened by the Israelis. And I think Bibi has not got, Bibi Netanyahu has not got any success there. He hasn't got the hostages back. He's under domestic pressure about that. And he is now trying to, I think, shift the attention. There is a very real sense in Israel that people want the citizens of northern Israel to be able to go back before school starts. But this is not the way to do that. And it's quite clear that there's been a clear ratcheting up. And I agree with you. I think the odds are that

this escalates out of control. It's going to get so much worse. And my colleagues, I was reading their missives this morning who are in Israel saying this is nowhere near as bad as it could get. The Israeli army has not yet got in. We haven't seen anywhere near the barrage that we could see from Hezbollah. It could be a lot, lot worse. And you're right. At the moment, it looks like it's going in that direction. Well, and if you talk to Israelis, if you talk to foreign policy experts in the region,

Zani, they will say that Netanyahu is not just one more reason for it. He is the main reason for it. When you have his defense, when his defense ministers, when his intel ministers, when you have so many people saying, let's move towards a ceasefire to bring the hostages home. I know you all have heard it. I've heard it from Israelis and from leaders in the region. Netanyahu, for Netanyahu, the enemy is peace. The day after a ceasefire is his last day in politics and his first day defending himself from being thrown in jail. And you can look at what's happened over the past several weeks and you can you can see that Netanyahu stands alone pushing to expand this war north now against, again, some genuinely, genuinely bad people. But the fact that they're generally bad people didn't make the incursion into Lebanon any better in the 1980s. This is a

nightmare waiting to happen. Can things get worse? Yes. Do they look like they're about to get much worse for the Israelis? Yes. Absolutely. But I think there's one little wrinkle to what you've just said, which is that Bibi's popularity is actually going up. And he is making a calculus that he can get away with this inside Israel. And for the moment, I think things are moving his way there. I mean, it is easy. You cannot imagine just how obsessed the Israelis are with their own security. You need to go there to get a sense of that.

October 7th, this is now a trite thing to say, but fundamentally changed the country, fundamentally changed their sense of their own security or insecurity. And Bibi is playing on that. And I think that I am stunned at how he is gradually going up in the polls. And, you know, it's remarkable, given everything that you've said, given the direction he's taking the country in. Well, it's even more remarkable, Jonathan O'Meara, when you realize that it was Bibi Netanyahu that funded Hamas for years, that it was Bibi Netanyahu who sent a minister three weeks before the October 7th attacks

and told Qatar, give Hamas more money, keep the money flowing. That it was Bibi Netanyahu and Donald Trump who knew in 2018 about the illicit funding for Hamas. And they did nothing to stop it because they wanted Hamas funded. It was Bibi Netanyahu that knew about this attack a year before it happened and didn't move on it. It was Bibi Netanyahu who was in charge of the government that waited five, six, seven, nine, ten, twelve

hours to rescue some people attacked by savage terrorists on October the 7th. And this guy, who basically burns the house down, helps Hamas burn the house down, comes in as a fireman saying, I'm here to rescue you. I don't get that. And I don't think a lot of a lot of people in Israel get that. Yeah. And it's the Netanyahu government to say it's still too soon to answer questions about the Hamas funding. It's the Netanyahu government that say it's still too soon to answer questions about the Hamas funding. It's the Netanyahu government that says it's still too soon to ask to answer questions about the intelligence failures on October 7th. Here we are nearly a year later from those attacks. So, Richard, the violence in the in the Middle East and as well as situation in Ukraine overshadow what's happening in New York later this week. The United Nations General Assembly, that annual meeting kicks off in earnest.

President Biden gets to town later tonight. His speech tomorrow. Talk to us if you see anything of note happening here. I know the U.N., this summit in particular, feels inconsequential. But in particular, drill down on Ukraine, if you will, because Zelensky's in town as well, trying to present a victory plan to all parties involved, Biden, Harris and Trump. Jonathan, the U.N. is functionally irrelevant for both of these conflicts, in part because the Security Council, which is the venue of the U.N. that has real authority, is so divided.

You have great power competition, rivalry, Russia, China, the United States can't agree on anything. The idea that the Security Council could exert any influence on Russia over Ukraine is a non-starter, or over China, say, over Taiwan, a non-starter. So the UN is no more and no less than great power relations of the moment. So at the moment, it's pretty irrelevant. It's been sidelined. Now, potentially, is there a place for diplomacy in both venues, in Ukraine and the Middle East? In principle, yes. In reality, in the Middle East, as Zannie and I have just been talking about, not so much. I simply don't see it. Though it'll be talked about a lot.

It might be the most talked about issue with the UN. I think Ukraine, we're still a little bit away from diplomacy, but my strong hunch is in 2025, diplomacy is going to come to the fore. We have got to set up a context where it has a chance, basically persuade the Russians

that time is not their friend, that the war will be incredibly painful and costly for them, and persuade the Ukrainians that if they compromise, at least on some of their temporary goals, they could have something. They could have a viable, safe country, which you could begin to reconstruct. That is going to be the goal. The UN, though, is not going to be central to this. It's going to happen on the margins. And Zain, let me get your thoughts, too. What situation in Ukraine? So I was just there for a week in Kiev and in the east on the front, close to the front. It is a really tough situation. The things that really struck me, one was the degree to which the

Russians have already bombarded Ukrainian infrastructure, energy infrastructure. There are going to be 10 hour blackouts and more throughout this winter. Really grim. Secondly, the nature of war at the front. I mean, you just, you know, I'm not a war reporter, but I was down there in a bunker watching, you know, drone battalion commanders doing the drone war. You cannot imagine what this is like. 21st century drone-on-drone warfare is just, it's completely extraordinary to behold. The country, I think I agree with Richard.

I think we're now in a situation where Ukraine has to change the terms of its definition of victory. And the definition of victory, to my mind, needs to be that Ukraine is a westward-focused democratic country which has serious security guarantees over the territory it currently controls. This aspiration of getting back to the 1991 borders is a fine aspiration to have diplomatically. They are not going to be pushing the Russians out of everywhere anytime soon. And I think that has to be realized soon. And what President Zelensky is coming this week, he's coming to us for more weapons absolutely needed. He's coming to us for an invitation to join NATO. I happen to think that's an important part of the guarantee. The question can be, can Ukraine temper its short term definition of victory? And

can we in the West provide the support needed to do that? And I suspect like like Richard, 25 is going to be 2025 is going to be a change year. But right now, everyone's waiting for the outcome of the election because there is a real fear that a President Donald Trump would sell Ukraine out. Richard Haass and Zannie Minton-Bettos, thank you both very much for coming on this morning. And coming up on Morning Show, Pablo Torre joins us to break down yesterday's action from across the NFL, as well as the MLB playoff picture as we enter the final week of the regular season and then his own incredible performance. Oh, he knocked it out of the park.

The feud. Yeah. Oh, my. You're naked in the woods. Someone walks by. What do you cover yourself with? A leaf. On a scale of one to ten, how nice are your neighbors?

Four. Name the greatest breakfast food ever created. Bacon. Name someone you should never call when you're drunk. Your mom. Name a coin you throw into a fountain to make a wish. A penny. We got a shot. We'll be right back. On the field, Pierce is there. At the 10 and down to the 5. And the guy today, seven catches, his best game. Here's Barkley, Saquon Barkley. Saquon Barkley's the guy. He's going to take it. Touchdown from 65. Second and seven.

Caught. Austin cuts ahead. Austin to the 20. Foot race to to the 10 he's across for the touchdown they've still got that one timeout left in their back pocket Dalton taking a shot to the end zone it is caught in motion Kenny McIntosh out of the backfield Tomlinson a block he's going deep and he's got him D.K. Metcalf. Dead six. Third and one. It's Henry racing through the hole.

And more. Derek Henry with a first down. Cardinals trailing here. As Goff hits St. Brown who flips it to Jameer Gibbs. And Gibbs is in the end zone for a Lions touchdown. Stafford. Across for Williams. Oh! Suburbs salts in to the end zone this is some of the biggest plays from across nfl yesterday uh and um pablo so much to talk about i i guess

we need to go to atlanta first and the falcons hosting kansas city uh patrick mahomes shook off an early interception through a pair of touchdown passes later, and the Chiefs defense stopped my Falcons twice on fourth down in the closing minutes to keep the two-time reigning Super Bowl champs unbeaten with a 22-17 victory. Let's bring in again Pablo

Torre. I want to see the feud. We can see the feud in a little bit. Yes. Pablo, actually, there's so much to talk about. I want to talk, though, first about Bill O'Reilly. Always, right?

I remember Bill O'Reilly, this was when he was at the height of his fame. I didn't know him really well, but there was some event in New York, and he was just scouring in the corner. And I just went up there with my Diet Coke. Oh, i'm drinking i go bill no dude you got the world in front of you here smile baby smile i bring that up because i saw cd lamb yesterday there's this massive contract this massive contract and he could not be worse. By the way, I also want to talk about Tom Brady. Tom Brady is turning, like the GOAT, is turning into a great broadcaster.

Because if you're the GOAT, you can say to CD Lamb, hey, CD, stop. You weren't open. Stop whining, which is exactly what Brady did. Okay, there's a lot there. A lot there, but it all goes back to the Cowboys. They paid a ton of money for Dak and CD. Dak's doing the best he can do. CD Lamb yesterday, though, man, what a bad game.

Joe, I'm always ready to do it live with you, for the record here. Bill O'Reilly, actually the first person I ever spoke to on television. That was the first show I ever did, very strangely, in 08, which is a different oral history, a differently miserable oral history than the Cowboys right now. Look, the Cowboys, they're a funny story to me because you pay these guys all this money, Dak Prescott record prices, CeeDee Lamb record prices, and then you roll up against a team that's a measuring stick in an 0-2 Ravens team. And you say to yourself, this is what the money is for. It's to beat a team like this. And they're embarrassed for the second straight week at home. And so to me, the Dak Prescott question, by the

way, Dak Prescott being evaluated by the aforementioned Tom Brady, now in the booth, finding his voice literal and figurative. He's sounding better out there. This is a nightmare if you're a Cowboys fan. And it's the only solace, I guess, is that it's a familiar one, I suppose. Underachieving. Underachieving while paying astronomical prices and suffering no real detriment to your business model, which is we're the most popular thing in America.

Try and not watch us. And we do every week. It's a long season. I'm sure that Dak and CD are going to get in rhythm right now. But, boy, it has started rough. Not good. We got to talk about the other side of the ball there, though. And what did we hear about this team?

Baltimore, man, passed its prime. Derrick Henry too old. Derrick Henry didn't look too old yesterday, did he? Yeah, there's something funny happening in the NFL right now. There have been years of throw-the-ball evangelists who are saying the data, the numbers, they all indicate just throw it. And this season has been a return to a day of your kind of feeling with offenses. And Derrick Henry is a battering ram. What the Ravens got on top of Lamar Jackson is a guy who you do not want to encounter

in any sort of scenario in which you have to tackle a person. And so they ran him a zillion times and he beat him up a zillion times, it felt like, and it worked. Well, you know, I mean, I don't want to whine and sound like an old man, but they don't know how to tackle anymore. You get somebody like Derrick Henry, the secondary, and they literally just sort of turn sideways and let him bounce up. Now, talking about old school. It's the top of the hour. It's the top of the hour, but we're talking about things more important.

It's two minutes past the top of the hour. I want to talk about my man, Justin Fields, who should still be in Chicago. And if he were still at Chicago, Chicago would have at least two wins right now. But this Pittsburgh Steelers team, this is again, we seem to be moving right now, kind of past the era of throw the ball 800 times a game. Yep. The Pittsburgh Steelers look like a team that would have won a Super Bowl when I was younger. A team that runs the ball, has a competent quarterback, and a really good defense. And that was always what you needed to get to the Super Bowl. This Steeler team, 3-0, nothing flashy about them. They just win. You know, it's reassuring to have something

that's constant, some institution that seems familiar over decades in American life. And that's the Pittsburgh Steelers. Mike Tomlin, for the record here, we talk about randomness in the NFL being the story of the NFL. It's so hard to wrangle all of these oblong balls bouncing. The Steelers and Mike Tomlin. Mike Tomlin has not had a losing season in the NFL as the head coach of the Steelers. And this team is the opposite, the opposite of bad every single year. And so you're right, as you are leading the Hall of Fame charge, Canton, Ohio, Justin Fields, let's get him in there. I just want to acknowledge that it's a long season, but the start to this campaign, Justin Fields, Pittsburgh

Steelers quarterback, has been maybe the greatest call you've had in the time that I show up here early in the morning and do a live with you. It's just remarkable that it's happened this way. I got Paul Feinbaum coming on. Paul Feinbaum would say possibly, you know, berating Alabama to hire Nick Saban may be better than that. By the way, Lions came back. Lions looked pretty good yesterday. What about the Vikings? Absolutely unbelievable. And, Paul, you can jump in on any of these as well. And, you know, I turned off.

I made a mistake. I turned off the Rams 49ers game because I was sure the Niners had it. And then I saw clips of the press conference afterwards. And, yeah, those were the two words I would use. So let me ask both of you guys. While I get both of you up, I want to talk to you about somebody who's near and dear to our hearts in my home with my boys and me. And he's having a rough time in the NFL. NFL, an Alabama guy, Bryce Young, reports, Paul Feinbaum, that Bryce, that several NFL teams approached Carolina and tried to get a trade with Bryce Young, and they turned him down.

Isn't it time that Carolina lets Bryce go and let him play somewhere else? It is, Joe, because Carolina, in my opinion, ruined Bryce Young. They played him way too early, but you have an owner there, surprise, surprise, who's a hedge fund billionaire on Wall Street. And he knows nothing about anything other than making money. And he's completely screwed up this franchise. They finally made a good decision. They got Bryce out of the fire. And Andy Dalton led them to a win yesterday.

But I just hope they haven't done that much damage. I realize Bryce Young has picked up about $30 million for his torture, but still, I think he has a future somewhere else. I wish they would let him go. Yeah, Pablo, I'll ask you the same thing. I mean, I'm sure you saw Mel Kiper just absolutely tear Carolina apart. Yeah, here, let me show you what Mel said earlier this week on Carolina. I think it's mishandled is the word, because when you drafted Bryce Young, you knew he was an outlier. You know, Russell Wilson was bigger, right, taller, but only 5'10 and 3 quarters. That opened it up for the 5'10 quarterback.

But Russell Wilson was 205, 208 coming out, not 180. Okay, Kyler Murray, because of Russell Wilson, became the number one pick overall. Different body type than Bryce Young. So you knew Bryce Young, not only short, but small, diminutive quarterback, needed help, right? Also, continuity. You draft a quarterback. Everybody said he's got this great infrastructure in Carolina around him, right? With the head coach,

the coordinator, the quarterback coach, everything's there. The senior assistant, everything's in place. And then you see him beat C.J. Stroud on the field as a rookie, right? If you take out the three games he threw multiple interceptions, he was five touchdowns, six touchdowns, three picks. Okay? Had some decent games last year.

Okay? But then you go into this year, you change everything because C.J. Stroud's doing so well in Houston. We've got to destroy this thing. We've got to blow it up and start over because, you know, C.J. Stroud's doing so great in Houston. These coaches aren't getting it done. So we bring in an offensive coach who was with Baker and others, right? Bring in a new pass game coordinator, new quarterback coach

for Bryce Young. Then we don't play him in the preseason. We play him one series in the final preseason game against the AOGs. None of those guys are playing for Buffalo, by the way. They went one series down the field. They're rah, rah. Great. We got it. We accomplished everything we wanted to. I'll give you a little note. C.J. Stroud played in two preseason games this year. Okay? He played four. Derek Carr played in two preseason games.

Why? Because Clint Kubiak was coming in with a new offense, and Derek Carr is a veteran playing two preseason games. Bryce Young played one series of a final preseason game against the nobodies on defense for the Buffalo Bills. Does that make sense to you? When two games in, we're saying he can't play. Yes, his confidence was shattered.

Right? Yes, he does need to sit behind Andy Dalton for a little bit. But to blame this on Bryce Young is ridiculous. By the way, this morning, Joe, we are a political show. We'll get back to that in a second. But this is more important. Pablo, Pablo, Mel, what do you say? I love that Mika is being subjected to Mel Kuyper Jr. on the start of the General Assembly. There are three constants real quick, Joe. One is the Steelers being good every year. The second is Mel Kiper's hairline. The third, to your point,

is that we don't know what we're doing when we scout quarterbacks. I think there is the malpractice of the corporate management structure of the Panthers. They failed him. They fired the GM, new coach. They failed him. But also, we just don't know who's good.

And that is a truism throughout NFL history. We think a guy is going to be a star and then you invest all of the money in him and he fails and you blame him. And sometimes you got to look in the mirror and realize maybe it's you. So that's what's the common denominator. Exactly. Paul Feinbaum, let's talk about the reality show that is Colorado. Yeah, every time you want to write them off, Joe, and I've been that person a couple of times, they do something simply unbelievable.

The chance of them winning that game was under 1%. It was actually about a half a percent. But Shador Sanders, the son of Coach Prime, figured out a way, and I know we'll show it in a second as we're going through some of the highlights, but Baylor is a very pedestrian team. Dave O'Reilly, remember the former D.C. at LSU for that national championship, and he's got a lot to answer for at the end of this game when we get to it because Coach Prime, like him or not, continues to literally suffocate the air out of college football

because he figures out some way, somehow, as we're about to get to, I think, we're about to get to that play in a minute. Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's been quite a fascinating run. But as you say, Golden Bachelor, move over. Well, yeah, there's a lot more drama here than the Golden Bachelor

and a lot less cheer at all. Yeah, exactly. Hey, Paul, not a lot of other great games this weekend in college football. I was disappointed because I'm always

kind of cheering for Nebraska and Oklahoma to rise up again. They just are not doing it. USC and Michigan, I guess, was the one legit good game this weekend. What's your takeaway there? Yeah, that felt great. I mean, this was really USC's entrance to the Big Ten. And Michigan, Joe, as you know, was eviscerated by Texas a couple weeks ago.

I mean, they were destroyed on their home field. But Southern Cal, I think, is definitely coming back, other than pick six here. But Michigan got the ball with about two minutes down. They had missed an extra point, or it had been blocked. And they figured out a way to march the entire field and scored at the end. Lincoln Riley, of course, who tutored some of those players that Pablo mentioned a few minutes ago, Kyler and Baker, and this was how they won it right here.

It was simply an amazing win. And, Joe, I know we're getting late in this segment, but there is another game coming up in about six days. I guess you probably have heard about it. I was going to ask you about it. The devil goes down to Tuscaloosa. Who's going to win it, Georgia or Alabama? I don't want to sound like one of your political guys,

but as of this moment, the trend lines are all pointing toward Alabama. Two weeks ago, I would have told you the exact opposite thing, but Georgia not only laid an egg two weeks ago against Kentucky, but they were exposed. Their quarterback, who everybody thought was the best in the country, Carson Beck, looked pedestrian at times. Their defensive line is beaten. They lost their best offensive player.

And with Nick Saban doing TV before and during the game, Alabama has a real shot at letting everyone know that there is life after Saban with Kaylin DeBoer. Yeah, you know, I would have said, you know, Georgia was going to be, you know, maybe a six-point, maybe a touchdown favorite until they laid an egg against a pretty bad Kentucky team. And now, like you said, it's trend lines maybe going to Alabama. We shall see.

ESPN commentator Paul Feinbaum. Thank you. Hey, Paul, I hope you don't mind. My son and I sometimes when we're driving around and driving him to practice, sometimes we listen to you. He keeps saying you need to pick up the phone and give him a call. We may be calling you this week leading up to the big game. We need expert commentary from you and your son because we don't have enough.