Morning Joe - Morning Joe 9/27/23

Episode Date: September 27, 2023

Trump found liable for fraud

I built a phenomenal company. And if we could run our country the way I've run my company, we would have a country that you would be so proud of. OK, I just need to correct that one. If we could run our country the way he ran his companies, we'd all be in jail. OK, Donald Trump with that statement back during the 2016 election. If that is the case, then a fraud ruling yesterday from a judge in New York about how he ran his company says a lot about his presidency.

We'll get into that decision, a big one, in just a moment. Well, I got to say, before we move on, this judge. We're going to read from the room. This judge came with like no need for a trial. Frazier's left hook, man. He he connected feet off the ground, flying through the air. The left hook. Boom. Really hit him hard before we even got to a trial. He said, we know fraud when we see it. We've looked at all the evidence. This is fraud. Another beast, a version of the trial may be starting next week. We'll get more details on that in a minute.

But the judge could not have been more clear in his ruling yesterday that what Donald Trump and the organization perpetrated over many, many years, in his eyes, is fraud. Yeah, part of the case brought by New York Attorney General Letitia James. So we'll get to that in just a moment. That's our top story this morning. Also ahead, the history making stop on the picket line for President Biden. We'll show you what he had to say to striking auto workers who are demanding a significant pay raise. Plus, Senator Bob Menendez is refusing to resign despite calls from two dozen colleagues to do so following his indictment on bribery charges. You wouldn't believe the Republicans who are now defending him.

Actually, it seems like in some ways both sides might be making this about Trump. But yeah, really interesting. Meanwhile, House Republicans are making some progress on a package of spending bills. But Congress is still on a path to a government shutdown. And we'll have a preview of tonight's Republican presidential debate taking place at the Reagan Library. The second showdown for the candidates will not feature the front runner in the polls. Donald Trump simply will not show up at the debate. He apparently has a grudge toward the Ronald Reagan presidential library as well, which means he has a grudge.

A lot of grudges. Grudge against like just about every Republican institution, every governmental institution, every military institution. A lot of grudges going around for a guy who actually wants to run a country he seems to hate. Yeah, I mean, the Reagan Presidential Library out in California is a sacred ground for Republicans, as you know, and they host debates every cycle. And Donald Trump has been in a fight with them, the details of which are too boring to explain here. But he views himself, as always, as having been wronged in some way by the Reagan family, the Reagan Presidential Library. He's a victim, so he's not going to show up. Now, there's also a political strategy to that.

He may not need to show up. He didn't show up at the last one, and he's still about 35, 40 points up on his closest challenger. By the way, we're going to talk about all of that, and we're going to start in just one minute. I do want to briefly say off the top of the show, Willie, we saw the passing yesterday of one of the greatest baseball players of all time, certainly the greatest third baseman of the show, Willie. We saw the passing yesterday of one of the greatest baseball players of all time,

certainly the greatest third baseman of all time, a guy that when I was a little kid, I got the chance to lean over, meet, and get an autograph from the stands. Brooks Robinson, just an absolute superstar at the Baltimore, with Baltimore Orioles. And as Tom Boswell wrote for The Washington Post in 1983, when he was admitted in the Baseball Hall of Fame, yeah, he was one of the greatest ballplayers ever, even better as a man.

Yeah, and if you look at his career, Joe, we're going to have Barnacle and Lupica kind of break this down for us. But 23 seasons with the same team. That's something you don't see very often. Certainly not anymore. There's a picture going around yesterday of him standing at third base with all his gold glove awards. And it's actually preposterous. There are 16 trophies. He won 16 consecutive gold gloves.

Jonathan Lemire played in 18 all-star games. They call them, you know, the Hoover because he vacuumed up anything that came even close to him at third base, the greatest defensive third baseman, certainly in the history of the game. And as Joe said, by all accounts, one of the best guys around baseball. Just a complete class act. And the tributes came pouring out yesterday. He was an American League MVP. He won a World Series MVP. He was a World Series champion. And without question, the greatest defensive third baseman of all time and arguably the greatest defensive player of all time. You simply couldn't get the ball past him. Jen Palmieri, I know you're an Orioles fan. You know,

this is certainly a life well lived, the tributes pouring out, but certainly a sad day coming at a time when the Orioles are on the verge of the playoffs. I know. I mean, it's sad, but it's sort of poignant. You think of the Orioles, you think of Brooks Robinson, Cal Ripken. We are the proud owners of a signed Brooks Robinson baseball at our very own home. All right. We'll have more on that coming up. We have so much going on today. We begin with a major ruling in a civil case against Donald Trump and his family business. In a 35-page decision yesterday, Manhattan Judge Arthur N. Gorin found the former president and his two oldest sons and their companies liable for fraud. According to the judge, the Trumps spent years inflating the value of their assets in financial statements given to banks and insurance companies.

The ruling is tied to a case brought by New York Attorney General Letitia James in 2019, which was scheduled to go to a bench trial early next week. Yesterday, the judge effectively decided he didn't need a trial to determine the Trumps were liable. The judge wrote in his ruling, quote, this is a fantasy world, not the real world, and admonished the former president for his overvaluing his holdings by as much as two point two billion dollars. In one example, Trump overestimated the size of his Manhattan apartment, which he spent years living in, by 19,000 feet or 200 percent. Judge Angorin called that absurd, writing, quote, a discrepancy of this order of magnitude by a real estate developer,

sizing up his own living space of decades can only be considered fraud. You know, Willie, I'm going to I'm going to have to go back. This is this is a good reminder. Size issue always. My it's always size issue. But like my 21000 foot condo, I may be off by about 19000 feet. Maybe I need to go back and sort of re-estimate that. What? Yeah, slightly off on those numbers. And that's just one of the properties we're going to talk about here. Next week's bench trial will proceed so the judge can determine the size now of the punishment. Attorney General James sued Trump for $250 million. The judge already has

granted her one of the other major punishments she sought to cancel the business certificates that allow many of Trump's New York properties to operate. This means Trump could lose control of his New York properties in addition to other real estate, including Trump Tower in Midtown Manhattan. If the Trumps lose their appeals, they could also be banned from ever doing business again in New York state. This statement yesterday, the former president's attorney called the decision, quote, completely disconnected from the facts and governing law. The judge also sanctioned Trump's attorney seventy five hundred dollars apiece yesterday for making legal arguments that had already been rejected. Trump himself reacted to the ruling with a series of posts on social media attacking the judge, as you can imagine, who he's suing, and the New York attorney general. Let's bring in former U.S. attorney, senior FBI official Chuck

Rosenberg, NBC News investigations correspondent Tom Winter, and reporter on the investigations desk at the New York Times, Russ Buettner. Good morning to you all. Russ, we'll start with you. You've been covering this closely. Can you just boil down for our audience what's going on here and exactly what Trump did, alleged to have done here, and why the judge viewed it as fraud? Well, if you read the documents that were filed in this case and the judge's decision, it's a very clear example of misleading the banks that he's presenting these documents to in a fraudulent way. He's not just overstating values, as he said. He's actually withholding information that they have found, they know themselves to be true,

from the banks. They've had assessments done of the property that show one value, they're presenting another value. There are documents that have been filed where they can't raise the rent on certain apartment buildings, but they act like they could sell those as condos with no regulations on them at all. They have properties where they can't actually develop it, but there is an evaluation that suggests they could develop it. So this isn't just playing with the numbers, as the Trump organization has said. This is them actually withholding information in a fraudulent way and increasing the value of these things. The judge is going to be the finder of fact in this case when it does go to trial. He is essentially the jury. And he said there's already been enough information

presented on this first count, really the most important count, to find them essentially guilty and to then move on to damages. And then we'll get to a trial on the remaining six counts there. So, Tom, Donald Trump has exaggerated his entire life. Well, before he got into politics, he would inflate the sense of his worth. He would talk about his apartment building. My favorite example of this is Trump Tower is actually a 58 story building, but when another building went up in the neighborhood a little taller, he simply renumbered the floors in the elevator to claim that it was 68 stories. So therefore, he could still have, in his estimation, the tallest building. But now there are real consequences. And it seems to be there's a chance that he will lose his business

certability to do business in New York State, which is where his empire is located. It's where Trump Tower is. It's where he's got several golf courses. How realistic is that to happen? What would that mean? I mean, I think at this point, it's very realistic. We'll have to find out what the appellate courts say about this. And Trump has obviously vowed to appeal. But so far, they have not taken kindly to his arguments in New York state. The attorney general absolutely has the authority to do so if it's upheld by the appellate division, the first appellate division in the state of New York. So that's number one. What was interesting are the other legal arguments that were addressed

yesterday by the judge. The Trumps have repeatedly said, look, with respect to these financial documents, these statements of financial condition, and Trump talks about it in his deposition with the attorney general himself, saying, look, there's a worthless clause here, effectively saying, do your own homework. I'm saying I'm worth, you know, $50 billion. But it's up to you to go back and look at these various properties and these various documents and determine whether or not you believe that. We're not making any sort of guarantees as to the picture that we're painting here. And the judge says, look, if you look at New York case law, it's clear that it doesn't matter how sophisticated the party is that's looking at these documents, who's involved with it, if it's a bunch of banks, a bunch of people that count these beans for a living, if you will.

It doesn't matter under New York state law. The bottom line is you try to defraud them by presenting these statements of financial conditions that he says, the judge says, not based on any sort of reality in a number of instances. On top of that, Trump and his kids have repeatedly said, look, nobody's lost any money on our loans. Banks have made tens of millions of dollars of interest. But the judge pointed out something interesting in his ruling. He says, look, if you look at this, the banks would have gotten tens of millions of dollars more in interest because they never would have given you the loan terms that you were able to receive. And I think that's an important point.

I go out to 6th Avenue right now and take up a collection for the banks. I know I'm not going to get a lot of money or a lot of sympathy for them, but those banks do have investors, they do have shareholders, or they do have institutions. And I think it's important to know, as my colleague Gretchen Morganson has pointed out in her reporting here at NBC, that the last real financial institution to give the Trumps loans was a company called Ladder Capital. Allen Weisselberg, the former CFO's son, his the former CFO, Allen Weisselberg, his son was the one who put forward those those loans, was able to make those financial transactions. Interesting. Chuck Rosenberg in the kaleidoscope of legal issues facing this former president, including the 91 counts in four indictments, Stormy Daniels defamation. Where

does this one stand and what are the real consequences, if any, that this former president might seem see imminently? Yeah, so it's a significant case, Mika, and a significant ruling by the judge. You know, often you see in these opinions that the language that a court uses is rather muted. It's rather polite. It's rather understated. Not here. I think the judge was outraged and rightfully so. And the language is clear. He believes that the valuations that the Trump team put on their properties was a fantasy that was completely untethered to reality. So where does it stack up? Important to note, this is a civil case, not a criminal case.

And so even though the judge found fraud, widespread, rampant fraud in the valuations, nobody's going to jail because of this case. You can't go to jail in a civil case. But to Tom Winter's point and to Russ's point, the business can lose its ability to function, to operate in New York State. And so the consequences, while they're not criminal and they're not jail, can be dire for the Trump organization and for its properties. So where does it stack up? A significant finding in a significant case by a judge who is outraged at the way the Trump folks have conducted themselves. But it will not result in jail time because it's a civil case. So, Joe, and I guess Jim Palmieri on the politics of this, when you look at the seriousness that Chuck talks about. And also, I think this is a case that the American people can understand because it's something Trump's been known for. Yesterday, we were talking so much about how Joe Biden needs to get out there and really punch at these legal issues that Trump is facing or maybe the Democrats.

But doesn't it make more sense when judges do it? Isn't that where it should come from? And when you read this, I think it's impactful and it doesn't become, you know, have you read the Mueller report? I mean, have you read any of the impeachment reports? Have you read any of the the indictments against Donald Trump? I'm saying, you know, it's their job. People aren't going to be reading. Swing voters aren't going to be reading a New York state judge's ruling. There are just unbelievably damning statements in there. You know he's going to truth about it or whatever his stupid platform is.

He's going to start spouting off, this will get to people. They were going to I mean, Letitia James has been looking at Trump for years now. Trump has definitely talked about her. This will get out there. And this fits his his game that he's been accused of all along. And that's all about the size of things. He always overblows the size of things that he owns or things that he does. And everything. So let's talk about, though, I mean, the fact that, again, what should the Biden campaign do? I'm not saying the president should do it, but you know what?

A judge, Jen, has found this guy guilty of fraud. Another judge in New York state said he raped E. Jean Carroll. The jury found him liable of sexual assault. The jury found him liable of defamation. That's what we already know has already come down the pike. You have, of course, in the United States case against Donald Trump for stealing nuclear secrets, for stealing war plans against Iran. You've got in the state of Georgia, another state run by Republicans. You've got him up and 20 of his associates up for trying to steal an election there. All of this adds up, but it all needs to be boiled down and put out to voters. And we can't expect federal judges to do it or state judges to do it or anybody else to do it. But the Biden campaign, the question is, are they able to do

that? Do they have the ability to punch back? I'm sure. I mean, they have. I mean, they look what they did in 2020. And tomorrow the president's giving a speech. Is it tomorrow? Right. Yeah. It's Wednesday, right? Yeah. It's Wednesday. Thursday, he's giving a speech in Arizona that's billed as a democracy speech. I think this is probably linked to both the, you know, to respond to the Republican debate tonight and then also looming shutdown and democracy not working. I think they're really good at this. I think the question is, and the UAW thing yesterday is a good example of this sort of of the of the choices that they have to make. If the president had gone into Michigan and all he had done is attack Trump, there are

workers, you know, a lot of UAW workers are probably going to vote for Donald Trump or certainly voted for him in 2020 and 16. Joe Biden has a really good argument to make to them. You can do two things at once, but I think what is the question he's present for? Isn't it even more effective to have him with a bullhorn doing that on the picket lines while his campaign is just unleashing one video after another video after another video, just pummeling Donald Trump's legal woes one after another. The Trump people are doing it. They're paying third parties to viciously attack Ron DeSantis, to use AI technology to attack Ron DeSantis. They're doing it around the clock. You would think the White House would be

able to do two things at once. John Fetterman did it when he ran in the Senate. That's what the president of the United States should be doing. But his campaign operation, I don't know if everybody's over 80 in his campaign operation, but his campaign operation, I don't know if everybody's over 80 in his campaign operation, but his campaign operation, they need to put stuff out that makes people go every morning. Oh, my God. Did you see what the Bush what the Biden campaign put out yesterday? We never say that there is. This is where the silos help you. Right. The media is really siloed. You can have the president do one thing. The campaign can do something else. And the UAW workers that are hearing the president in Michigan aren't going to be receiving the stuff that's siloed and on digital. So

sure, you should do both. That's what campaigns are for. And it does sure feel like this week, the general election started and, you know, Trump is acting that way and the Biden campaign should do. So, Russ, back to the business side of this from the politics. What is your sense, having covered this so closely about where this goes from here? I mean, there's a lot of talk of Donald Trump being effectively booted out of New York City as a real estate developer, 40 Wall Street, Trump Tower, the properties up in West Chester that he has. Is that realistic that he could be stripped of his ability to do business in the city, in the state? Yeah, I mean, that's the big question today. Some lawyers have called this sort of a corporate death penalty, that the judges ordered these LLCs to control these properties to be shut down and

then disgorged of their assets. But these are not just his New York entities. EJT Holdings also controls most of his golf courses around the country and around the world. There's one entity in there that starts with a 401. That's the entity that owns the Chicago Tower. So that's a big question. If you dissolve these entities and disgorge them of their assets, that's the show. That's the whole thing. So he's going to fight this until the end. I'm sure he'll go up to New York State's highest court and probably back down a couple of times. But this is if it's as simple as what the judge states here and it holds, it is a very serious few years that he's got ahead of him here that could end it all. Tom, the Trump adult sons, Don Jr. and Eric, involved in this as well. Eric put out a statement yesterday attacking the judge, of course, and saying he values Mar-a-Lago, Eric Trump does, at $1 billion. That's the number he put on it. So we'll leave that to the realtors

down there in Palm Beach to assess that. But what is your sense of what comes next? Obviously, Donald Trump and his team, like all these trials, are going to try to delay, kick the can down the road a little bit. What does it look like when the bench trial starts next week, if it does, in fact? Sure. So as you said, bench trial, right? So not a jury trial. And I think the key thing that needs still needs to be decided here are a couple of issues. First off, the judge did not decide on the issues and will wait for the bench trial to determine whether or not the Trump organization falsify business documents. Now, we know for the Manhattan D.A.'s case, they were convicted of doing exactly that. But this particular suit goes beyond it. Of course,

there's no criminal penalties, as Chuck pointed out. But that could also factor into what happens here from a civil suit perspective. And then, of course, this disgorgement, the quarter of a billion dollars that the New York attorney general is seeking. What happens with that? How much of that is actually imposed? And what does that ultimately mean? I think that's the big question mark for the Trump organization, to Russ's point, what that ultimately means for Donald Trump and his assets and his personal wealth going into this election and going on for the rest of his life and for the Trump family. So I think as difficult as this ruling was for them yesterday, the real danger, the disgorgement, the fact that the money and

the assets could really be taken away from them, that real danger lurks right around the corner. You know, it's interesting. Voters all have different ways and different things that get to them. And I personally think Letitia James was on to something when she did this. I know a lot of business owners who are Trump supporters, but are slowly going, is it too much? They pay their taxes. They play by the rules. They don't lie about the size of their hardware stores or their shops or their homes. And reading this could be more insulting than some of the other things that could be just, you know what, they're too busy for it. They're too focused on their own business. Like stealing nuclear secrets. Maybe like, I don't get that,

but he did overvalue. I'm not saying they don't get it at all. I'm just saying it's not personal. This is personal. This is, this is what Trump has. This has been his game exaggerating to rip people off. And most American voters are good people who play by the rules and love this country. Chuck, I'm curious, in terms of all the legal challenges facing Donald Trump, what are we looking at next down the line? Well, if you want to talk about all of the legal challenges, Mika, we're going to need a couple more hours this morning. I mean, there are four pending indictments. There are civil cases in New York and elsewhere. And who knows what tomorrow will bring for the Trump team? You know, it was interesting to me

in terms of valuations. And I know that doesn't sound like something that would go together, interesting in valuations. But if you read the opinion, in one instance, the judge cited the fact that Mr. Trump had overvalued his Mar-a-Lago property, if you compare it to what the county assessor thought it was worth, by 2,300 percent. I mean, that is not a rounding error. And so this is not a mistake. This is not inadvertence. This is not the fact that they didn't pay attention to detail. It's that they committed an egregious fraud on the banks. And maybe the banks aren't sympathetic victims, but as Tom Winter pointed out earlier, they have investors. And those investors are entitled to their banks being given full and fair and free information. And that didn't happen. And so lots of legal challenges

for Mr. Trump. The most significant are the ones that could put him in jail, the two federal indictments, the two state indictments, one in Georgia and one in New York. If you're thinking about worst case scenarios, if you're lying awake at night and staring at the ceiling, it's depending criminal cases. But from a business risk perspective, the fact that they could lose the right to do business in New York, that they could lose the right to do business in New York, that they could lose their business certificates, that they might have to disgorge profits is extraordinarily significant for this company.

As the judge pointed out, the company built on lies and fantasy in many ways. Wow. Former U.S. Attorney Chuck Rosenberg and NBC's Tom Winter, thank you very much. And New York Times reporter Russ Buettner, thank you all very much for your reporting and insight this morning. That is a big story. It is. It really is. And we'll be following the different contours of it throughout the four hours here on Morning Joe and still ahead on Morning Joe, we'll show you Joe Biden's message for striking autoworkers in Michigan as he became the first sitting president to join a picket line. Plus, we'll speak with Congresswoman Alyssa Slotkin on the heels of the president's historic visit to her state. Also ahead, former White House aide Cassidy Hutchinson will be our guest with her insider account of the chaos that unfolded over the final days of the Trump presidency.

You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back. Right. Right. Right. You didn't, sir? As I said, I'm here to do the work of the people of New Jersey. Why won't you resign, sir? Senator Manchin. Because I'm innocent. What's wrong with you guys? Why were there gold bars there? All right. That's our own NBC's Ryan Nobles trying to get an answer out of Senator Bob Menendez, who will be arraigned this morning as the number of Democratic senators calling for his resignation swells to nearly half the Senate chamber. Menendez will make his first

appearance in a Manhattan federal court with his wife, Nadine, and three other co-defendants on charges that include conspiracy to commit bribery. The New Jersey lawmaker and his wife both insist they did nothing wrong. As of last night, at least 24 Senate Democrats have called on Menendez to step down, including his longtime friend, fellow New Jersey Senator Cory Booker. In a statement, Booker praised Menendez as a person and friend, but called his refusal to resign a mistake, writing in part, quote, stepping down is not an admission of guilt, but an acknowledgement that holding public office often demands tremendous sacrifices at great personal cost. Senator Menendez has made these sacrifices in the past to serve. And in this case, he must do so again. I believe stepping down is best for those Senator Menendez has spent his life serving. Menendez was forced to step down as chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee after the indictment was issued last week,

but he has been defiant to give up his Senate seat. Earlier this week, Menendez claimed nearly half a million dollars prosecutors say they found stuffed in the envelopes and clothes during a search of his home was money that he had withdrawn regularly over decades. Willie. Always a bad day, Mika, when reporters are yelling through closing elevator doors. What about the gold bars in your house? That's not so good. Senator Menendez has been getting support, though, from across the aisle, some Republicans coming to his defense against those calls for him to step down. One is

Senator Tom Cotton of Arkansas, who argued a jury should decide the New Jersey senator's faith. In a post on social media, Senator Cotton wrote in part, he should be judged by jurors and New Jersey's voters, not by Democratic politicians who now view him as inconvenient to their hold on power. Senator Marco Rubio of Florida echoed that sentiment, posting in part, quote, in America, guilt is decided by a jury, not politicians in fear of their party losing a Senate seat. Republican senators J.D. Vance, Susan Collins, Ted Cruz also joined the wait and see chorus, all said the charges appear serious, but that it is up to the courts and New Jersey voters to decide the New Jersey lawmakers fate. So, Jen, obviously, the dam broke yesterday when Cory Booker, Menendez's New Jersey senator, well said statement by Booker. He put out that statement

and now 24 Democrats. We were on the air yesterday around this time for I think Democrats had called for him to resign. We had Senator Stabenow on. She said she wasn't there yet. But, you know, the argument from Republicans and Tom Cotton is, you know, Democrats are worried about their grip on power. It also could be that they hold their colleagues to a different standard than Republicans do. It's a rare moment of consistency for Republican senators. I mean, I'm not being sarcastic. I was I'm surprised because normally they'll just have one set of rules for Trump and say everything he does is fine. And one set of rules for Democratic senators. But they're being consistent now to say that that the jury should decide. The I think that the Booker statement was sort of the model for this, which is you're you

have public public trust and and and there and the questions that were raised just about the behavior and what it shows in terms of his judgment is enough to say that he should step aside. You know, whether he actually and he may never do that. But I think that the only thing Democrats can do is say what he should, you know, what should happen here. And, you know, and that's enough to be living up to the standard. Right. His fellow senators stressing that resign does not mean an admission of guilt. It just means that you can't serve the people of New Jersey anymore. And I think that we'll get more of his colleagues say the same today, that it is time to go. There is, you know, certainly if they were not to do that, if they were to remain silent on

Menendez, that would defang their ability to attack Trump for the same. They're trying to say Trump is under all these indictments. He's not fit to serve. The same standard has to apply. It does seem Menendez was famously stubborn. You know, he certainly said yesterday that he would not resign. There's some suggestion, perhaps, that he would hold on to his seat and try to use it as a chip in a possible plea deal if it were to go that route. So I don't know that we should expect him to listen to those calls to step away, but expect him to pick up in the days ahead. All right. Coming up, the first impeachment inquiry hearing surrounding President Biden is set for tomorrow. But the Republican lawmaker leading the hearing says it won't cover any new ground.

Morning Joe will be right back. me through. Chain, chain, chain. Chain, chain, chain. Chain of fools. Everything. A lot of picture of the White House. The sun just starts to peak up at 639 in the morning. Last week, President Biden announced the creation of the White House Office of Gun Violence Prevention to be led by Vice President Kamala Harris. Through an executive order, the president wrote that he was determined to send a clear message about how important this issue is to me and to the country. Among its first directives will be to ensure a federal gun safety law passed last year is being fully implemented. The office also will seek to find ways to stop increase in violence nationwide without any additional action from Congress. This morning, the nonprofit organization Sandy Hook Promise is unveiling its latest public service announcement,

underscoring how important it is to take threats of gun violence seriously. It's titled Just Joking. The spot features a lineup of renowned comedians who deliver the sobering message that threats are not jokes. Here now, an exclusive first look. So, first day of school, last day of your lives. I want to kill people. Bang, bang! You did! I set the date. You are gonna regret not talking to me.

Oh, you have no idea what I'm talking about. But you will. Hey, fair warning. Stay home tomorrow if you wanna live. Today's the day? Today is the day. The day my massacre begins. Some of you guys

are alright. Don't go to school tomorrow. I mean it. After all the name calling, I want to go down as the best school shooter in history. Join us now, the co-founder, CEO of the Sandy Hook Promise Foundation, Nicole Hockley. She lost her six-year-old son, Dylan, in the Sandy Hook shooting in 2012. Nicole, it's nice to see you again. Tell us about that PSA and why people need to take these threats that sometimes people can dismiss as, oh, it's a kid popping off on social media or he sent a text.

He was probably just joking. Don't worry about it. Why this is such an important message. It's an important message for exactly the reasons you just said. A lot of times when we first launched the Say Something program, we teach kids how to recognize the warning signs. But we've often heard from them that they don't want to report something because they don't think it's serious. They say if they're putting it out there on social media, they don't really mean it or they're just joking. And we want

students and young people and the adults around them to understand that when you see a threat of violence, you have to take it seriously because all of the threats that you just saw in that PSA were made by real school shooters. And there's a longer version of this PSA that attributes each of those quotes to the different shootings that took place. So you need to take these threats of violence seriously because it's not a joke and it could have life altering consequences. Do you get the sense, I have two teenagers, so I'm sort of in this, that people have started to take teachers, administration, but even kids now I hear and see are taking it more seriously where 12 years ago before Sandy Hook, oh, come on. But now they go, wait a minute. If that turns into something deadly,

I want to be the one to have stopped it. Yeah. We know that kids, young people really want to be upstanders. They don't want to just be passive bystanders. And when someone needs help, they want to reach in. And what we do with our programs is teach them how to unlock those tools and to do something. And we're seeing the tangible evidence that that works. We know from research our anonymous reporting system that have already stopped 15 credible planned school shooting plots. And it's those kind of threats that you saw in that PSA that they're tipping in and saying this this person is going to do something and I need help now. So, Nicole, how do you assess the progress made over the last decade or so since Sandy Hook on this issue? The burst of activism that surrounded Parkland, of course, the tragedy of Navalny. As Willie just mentioned, the White House has started this new office to try to prevent gun violence. There was that bipartisan bill that was passed last year, modest, but still the first one in a long time. Where do you think we are and how hopeful you are that more can come? Well, each of these steps are a step towards a safer future. And I think we shouldn't ignore

the cumulative effects of all of these changes. We're seeing great things happen in states. We're seeing things happen in the White House. And a movement has been really growing over the last 10 years. The way that grassroots supporters are giving their voice to this and saying, this is an issue I care about. This is an issue I'm going to vote on. And you need to do something. So the pressure is mounting and further action needs to be taking place. So, you know, I worked for communications director when the shooting happened and when your son was killed. And President Obama's also that that was the worst

day of his presidency. But I know like a close second was when the Senate failed to pass legislation to deal with that. We're going to be able to pass background checks when the Senate failed to pass legislation to deal with help. We're going to be able to pass background checks in the Senate after the shooting. And he and Vice President Biden had to walk into the Roosevelt room where you were and other parents to say, no, Senate's not going to do anything. Nothing's going to happen. But you all, you and then Mark Barden, who I know is another friend of ours who lost his son, Daniel, who's, if you told me, his 18th birthday is today, started this, really gotten a lot done. And like what is so impressive is it's scientific, right?

You understand now you need to address that jokes are a threat. What kind of resources do you all have available for people as part of Sandy Hook's Promise that will help even outside of government action? Sure. Well, there's a lot of resources on our website that really show what the warning signs are. So it's great for having a conversation, a parent to have a conversation with their child about these are the things that you should be looking for. If someone is saying these things, if someone's posting these things, or these are things you hear, say something to me or another trusted adult. It's also amazing resources for schools. We've had our programs in over 26,000 schools across the country so far,

reaching over 21 million youth and adults. And that's how you have an impact is teaching people, how do you recognize the signs? And then how do you take action? And then we support that with all of the policy work as well. We stand in awe of you and we watch you every time you join us that you've turned your unimaginable grief into this activism over the last decade. And I think it's important to point out because there is sometimes a sense of futility about this in this country. Well, we're awash in guns. People are going to die. They're going to get shot. There are more guns than people. There's only so much we can do. But there has been a ton of progress made. It's important to underline that in the last decade. How do you wake up every morning and say, this is a fight worth having? We can do better. It's a fight worth having because people are

still dying. And sadly, the amount of gun violence in our country and school shootings is still increasing. And I simply don't want to continue to meet parents who have lost their children in shootings. So this is something that I'm going to continue to do for Dylan, for my surviving son, Jake, and for all children. So, Joe, Nicole and I were just talking as she sat down just this month, the class, that first grade class at Sandy Hook are seniors. This is their last year of high school. And so many kids like Dylan were denied the opportunity to have their all these birthdays, but their senior year in high school. And like Nicole said, this continues every day. It happens every day to

more students, to more children, to more grandmoms, to so many other people. You know, Nicole, I wanted to underline what Willie said. We actually have seen legislative progress over the past decade, even as we were all shocked after Sandy Hook by the political inaction. So we are moving in the right direction legislatively over time, and I think with attitudes over time. But as you said, people are still dying. I saw a statistic not so long ago that showed that the number of killings by guns have actually gone up by, I think, 50 percent in the decade since Sandy Hook. Yeah, it's it's shocking. I think at the moment and the U.S. we're having on average two mass shootings every single day. We've already had around 230 school shootings this year. These are horrible numbers. And behind each of

those numbers are families and communities that are suffering and will suffer trauma for the rest of their lives. We are making progress. It's slow progress, but we are continuing to push forward and we will continue to push forward until this is not the epidemic that we have anymore. And Nicole, if people want to get information about some of the resources you all provide, what's the best place for them to find it? Simply go to our website, SandyHookPromise.org. You can learn about the signs. You can learn how to bring the programs to your school.

You can learn how to have conversations with your children or with your friends. It's important that everyone gets involved because we all have a job to do when it comes to taking warning signs seriously. Co-founder of the Sandy Hook Promise Foundation, Nicole Hockley. Thank you for being here. Thank you. And thank you for your continuing courage. As I said, we are in awe of you.

Thanks for being here. Thank you. Still ahead this morning, Donald Trump allegedly lied to insurers and defrauded banks. And now a judge says he's been doing that for about a decade. We'll get more reporting about yesterday's major fraud ruling against the former president. Plus, quote, let's not sleepwalk into another Trump presidency. That's the title of the new piece from Vanity Fair special correspondent Molly Jong Fast. She joins us next with what is at stake. Also ahead, we'll speak with former White House aide Cassidy Hutchinson. What else she's revealing about the disarray during the

final days of the Trump White House in her new book. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back. We have news now out of North Korea. The rogue nation has decided to expel the 23 year old soldier, Travis King, who illegally crossed into the country during a tour in July. That's according to state media, Korean Central News Agency. They allege King has harbored ill feelings over inhumane treatment and racial discrimination within the U.S. Army and was disillusioned about the unequal U.S. society. KCNA did not specify how, when, or to where King would be expelled. We'll continue to follow this story throughout the morning.