Morning Joe - ‘Pushed by MAGA base for years’: Joe slams Trump’s Democratic 'hoax’ claims over Epstein outrage

Episode Date: July 17, 2025

President Donald Trump disowned his supporters who have called for the release of files related to Jeffrey Epstein, chiding them Wednesday as "weaklings" who "bought into this bulls---." Trump called the issue 'a big hoax' and 'perpetrated by the Democrats'. The Morning Joe panel discusses.

It's all been a big hoax. It's perpetrated by the Democrats. Some stupid Republicans and foolish Republicans fall into the net, and so they try and do the Democrats' work. I call it the Epstein hoax. Will you ask Attorney General Pam Bonny to release more documents to finally put this controversy to bed? You know, whatever's credible, she can release it.

If a document is credible, of the documents there that is credible, she can release. I think it's I think it's good, but but it's just really it's just a subject. He's dead. He's gone. And, uh, all it is is the Republicans. Certain Republicans got duped by the Democrats. President Trump yesterday, continuing to dismiss the outrage from his base over the handling of the Jeffrey Epstein files, even going as far as saying he doesn't want their support anymore. We'll look at whether he's actually at risk of losing some of his MAGA coalition. Also ahead, we'll go through conflicting messages from President Trump about the future of Fed Chair Jerome Powell, as well as the warnings from top banking CEOs.

And we'll dig into new reporting on last month's Air India crash, revealing new details about actions taken by the pilot. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Thursday, July 17th, and we'll get to our top story here with Joe, Willie and me. President Trump is now directly disavowing his own supporters who are calling for the release of the Jeffrey Epstein files in a lengthy social media post yesterday. The president blasted anyone who continued to talk about Epstein, whether they're Trump supporters or not, calling them weaklings who, quote, brought into this BS.

He also claimed Democrats have concocted the, quote, Epstein hoax. Trump then spoke about it with reporters in the Oval Office and during an appearance on a right wing network. It's a hoax. It's started by Democrats. It's been run by the Democrats for four years. I lost a lot of faith in certain people. Yeah, I lost.

Because they got duped by the Democrats. The Democrats are good for nothing. I'd rather talk about the success we have with the economy, the best we've ever had and all of the things we've done, including the Middle East. I mean, you see it. Instead, they want to talk about the Epstein hoax. And the sad part is it's people that are really doing the Democrats' work. They're stupid people.

And all my supporters want to talk about is the Jeffrey Epstein hoax. It's unbelievable. It's a disgrace. And I'm going to, I remember every one of these guys. They're my supporters and they just, they love it. They love it. And they, it's all induced by the Democrats. The Democrats are the ones that are getting them to say this stuff.

Where do you think, what are the things are most important that you would like to see the FBI get to the bottom of? I think they could look at all of it. It's all the same scam. They could look at this Jeffrey Epstein hoax also, because that's the same stuff that's all put out by Democrats. Later at a bill signing ceremony at the White House, the president was asked whether he thinks a special counsel should be appointed to deal with the Epstein files.

And we'll note NBC's Tom Winter and MSNBC's Ken Delaney and have clear reporting that there is no actual client list. What this memo is effectively saying is what reporters who've worked on this case for years have told you. There's no evidence here of a list. There are lots of files. There is no client list. And by the way, we've been reporting that for years.

People who have covered this investigation, Tom Winter in New York, has been told that by investigators. All right. people who have covered this investigation, Tom Winter in New York, has been told that by investigators. All right, so Willie, it's not being pushed by the left-wing radical Marxist, whatever media. It's not being pushed by Democrats. I saw Bill O'Reilly having a debate talking about this all began when Merrick Garland arrested Epstein and he kept being correct. No, no. This happened in 2019. The arrest, Jeffrey Epstein's death, all of that happened in 2019 when Donald Trump was president of the United States the first time. Wasn't Democrats going through the 2024 campaign, 23, 24 saying, we're going to get this information out?

It was people like Charlie Kirk. It was people in the president's own administration. It was Republicans that kept pounding this nonstop. I mean, the president yesterday saying it was a Democrat, It was Republicans that kept pounding this nonstop. I mean, the president yesterday saying it was the Democrats. No, no it has. No, the Democrats have been attacked by Republicans, and the media has been attacked by Republicans for

years for not pushing this more. And so it's really, it's just, it's crazy. I don't know who in the world would be stupid enough to believe that this was some democratic hoax that Democrats have been pushing when it's been pushed by the MAGA base for years. This has been almost a foundational belief of MAGA that there's this global child pedophilia ring and Jeffrey Epstein was at the center of it. It was Republicans, Republicans, MAGA people, MAGA people, right-wingers, right-wingers. And they were attacking Biden they were attacking garland they were attacking the mainstream media for not buying into it more so what everything he said about

this being a a democratic hoax just not true. That's exactly right and it is foundational as David French explained really well with us yesterday, he took time and explained how this idea was born, how it became an obsession, and how it is foundational in the way that many MAGA supporters, many in the far right wing of our politics, believe that the leadership, that the elites in this country are a part of some cabal, as you said, of pedophilia. It goes back to Pizzagate and QAnon and we can get into all of that. This is an obsession. This is foundational in the MAGA culture and that what's been really interesting is many of Donald Trump's supporters are not buying what he's been saying over the last couple of years. When he says it's the Democrats, it's the Democrats, it's the Democrats, he's using the term hoax.

What part of this is a hoax? Do you not believe that Jeffrey Epstein did the things he was convicted of doing, the further things that he's accused of doing before he died as he was awaiting trial? What is the hoax part of this? It is not Democrats and the supporters that have been by Donald Trump's side and have rarely, if ever, spoken out against him, continue to do so yesterday.

They're upset about the way he and his administration are handling this case. Mr. President, the emphasis on Epstein is truly the best intentions of your most loyal followers. And it's not that people are saying, you know, they want to learn about Epstein because they have any suspicion of President Trump. No, have an understanding of your supporters and your followers here and know that they're not trying to take you out.

They're not trying to fall for a hoax. A leader who can convincingly bring transparency to this case will win loyalty and support from people who have been jaded about politics. And Trump can be that leader. Bringing this into the public arena was President Trump. That's a matter of historic record. It's not up for debate. It's the administration and their handling of this, which is why everyone's talking about it.

It didn't have to be handled this way. It's been abysmal. And people aren't satisfied. And that's what all available polling shows. I find it stingingly ironic that Trump compares all these things to these hoaxes. And the reason we know their hoaxes is because evidence was released. If you talk about this, I'm going to excommunicate you. Well, you're not the Pope, bro. I mean, you're not speaking from the throne ex cathedra anyone who

disagrees anything I say is vanished and I'm not saying Trump land is a cult the Democrats are the cult of hating reason and logic and common sense but when But when Trump starts behaving like that, it starts getting into cult territory. Charlie Kirk, Benny Johnson, and there, Alex Jones. Trump's former national security adviser, Michael Flynn, joined the chorus as well, posting a lengthy statement on social media, pleading with the president to reconsider his stance on this case. Joe, so there you have it. Some of the most powerful voices in the MAGA movement ranging from Charlie Kirk, who really speaks to young members of the

MAGA movement to the very most extreme in Alex Jones and info wars saying, we don't like being told we're stupid for wanting transparency about something we've been obsessed with for years and years and years. Well, yeah, and I mean, you're you're also hearing it from well, from all across conservative media. You're hearing it from Megyn Kelly yesterday. She interviewed Mark Kalbrin talking about why this just doesn't make any sense at all to be attacking supporters and to be saying that they are, that they're stupid, that he doesn't want their support, and then saying that they're buying into a Democratic hoax, and everybody

knows it wasn't a Democratic hoax because these people with podcasts were the very people that were pushing it the hardest from 20, 21, 22, 23, 24 and you just can't say halfway through 25 oh nothing to see here move along move along and if you don't move along after you said this for five years and believed this for five years, and this was the foundational belief of the MAGA movement, you can't tell those same people that they're stupid, that their ex communicated, and that somehow Joe Biden and and Merritt Garland did this. I will also say too, you start throwing hoax around

with an Epstein investigation, one of the worst pedophiles in American history. And I don't think anybody doubts that. You start calling that a hoax, then people start looking at other things. So wait a second, he's called all these other things hoaxes and we just fell for it hook line and sinker. If he's now calling the fact that Jeffrey Epstein was a pedophile who got the richest and most powerful man in the world on his plane going

to his island, if he's calling that a hoax now, when we know it's not a hoax, what else is he not being straight with us about? So it's a very, it's a very dangerous strategy. And one that I must say I'm still baffled by. A lot of questions remain. Let's bring in right now editor in chief

at Christianity Today, Russell Moore. He has a new piece for the publication titled Why We Want to See the Epstein Files. Russell, yeah, I, again, this has been, again, Epstein, the fact that this guy The fact that this guy got away with so much for so long, and the fact there's so many questions that are still remaining so much of his life and so much of the pedophile ring, and we still don't know for sure who all the rich and powerful people were, you know, that's a question that has rung out in MAGA world and certainly has with members in the church as well, hasn't it?

Yeah, and at first when I started hearing about this from people, I thought, well, you know, this will be like Access Hollywood. People initially were a little upset, but then they just kind of put it aside. Or January 6th. All kinds of people who looked at January 6th and thought, I didn't sign up for that, but who then just kind of moved along. I thought, that will happen with this as well. But it's not.

And there seems to be something very different here from people who have been saying for years, we have to get at this Epstein case. And one of the real tells that I'm seeing is the way that humor is being used. If you look at the ESPY awards, at the comedy being used there about, well, there was an Epstein joke here, but it's been deleted. And maybe it deleted itself. That's not partisan humor. It's the kind of gallows humor that the whole country just about is feeling right now. And we haven't seen an issue

that's been able to unite people across the stage of American life in a long time, a really long time. Russell, can you explain a little bit as well beyond the obvious that everyone should want to know if there were people, whether powerful or not, that we don't know about participating in a pedophile ring, pedophilia ring. Can you explain why it goes deeper in the MAGA movement, why it goes deeper in the conservative movement, why it goes deeper in the church when you talk to people? Why is this, we keep using the word foundational, but it really is to a lot of people.

Why is this story so important to so many people? Well, I think some of it is just the horror of the moral atrocity itself. I think that many people are able to see somebody who's not only sexually exploiting, raping minor girls, but is also doing so with some of the richest people, allegedly, in the country, in a kind of systematic sort of torture, sexual torture of them. Most people can see that that's repulsive to functioning consciences. But then you add to that, that this is part of what, in the MAGA movement, there's been this concern for many years that the leaders are out of step with people.

So there's a group of elites, sometimes talked about in terms of a deep state, sometimes talked about in terms of just the Uniparty or whoever. There's a group of people who want two different sets of laws, two different kinds of American dreams in terms of economy, two different kinds of laws for people. So they started thinking about the Epstein case when it wasn't one of those dividing kind of choose your jersey issues and line up. And so that's gone on for so long. It's very difficult for people just to say, oh, the person that I've rightly identified

as a villain, now I'm just not supposed to think about anymore. That's very, very difficult for people to do. At the same time, President Trump has been able to turn the page on issues, Russell, and move the interest in a different direction. Is it possible, perhaps, that he does the same here? Well, I expect that he will at some point, but I've been expecting that for the past several days. I mean, one of the things that's shocking about this era is just how quickly things go.

I mean, I was stunned last week to realize it was a year since the Biden Trump debate. That seems like 10 years has happened. And, you know, the bombing of Iran, how long ago does that seem and how distant from what we're talking about right now? This story, though, at least right now, continues to persist. A lot of the methods that are being used, if you just don't pay attention to it, it's not real. If you pay attention to it, you're supporting our enemies.

If you pay attention to it, as of yesterday, you're stupid and dupes. Those don't seem to be working yet. Will they at some point? Maybe, but they've usually worked a lot quicker than this before now. Well, you know, you can tell when pastors are hearing from their congregation on certain issues and you can tell when these podcasters and politicians are hearing from their listeners and their constituents, Russell, because they realize they don't have any choice. They can't back down and wash their hands of it.

Editor-in-chief at Christianity Today, Dr. Russell Moore, as always, it's great having you here. Thanks a lot. Thanks, Joe. Thank you, sir. All right. So, Mika, we played earlier, we played a clip of Tom Winter talking about how there is no client list and blowing up these conspiracy theories.

I will say if you talk to people inside the administration that are close to all of this, they will say they're frustrated as well because there are a lot of people that came in expecting to find much more than they found. But they point back to the plea deal that happened in 2006 with Acosta where he gave him a sweetheart deal when he was with the Southern District of Florida and basically let Comey off the hook, let the state take care of it. They let him walk in and out of prison and you know the belief is that any tapes, any incriminating evidence of incriminating evidence of rich, powerful men molesting and raping, sexually assaulting these young girls, they believe because of what Acosta did in 05 or 06 with his plea

deal, the evidence just wasn't around because Epstein wasn't going to keep it around. He was arrested by the feds. Acosta didn't go after this stuff, gave him a sweetheart deal. And they're saying that was the time to get all this information. And that's why they don't have it now to release. That's at least their take. But the administration, the feds, they're going to have to explain what's been happening and why members of the administration have been saying what members of the administration have been saying. Well, meanwhile, federal prosecutor Maureen Comey, the daughter of former FBI Director

James Comey, was fired by the Justice Department yesterday. It's unclear why she was let go, but sources familiar with the matter. Tell NBC News, the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Southern District of New York cited Article 2 of the Constitution, which establishes the executive power of the president. Comey prosecuted Sean Ditty Combs during his sex trafficking trial this year and played a role in the prosecution of convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein and of his co conspirator Ghislaine Maxwell. Recently Comey had become the target of renewed attacks by influencers in Trump's right-wing base who are raising concerns

over the Trump administration's handling of the Epstein case. This also comes as the DOJ has launched a criminal investigation into Maureen's father, James Comey. Joining us now with new reporting on this development is New York Times investigative reporter Michael Schmidt. Michael, there's a lot to work with there. What happened, as far as you can tell? Oh, we don't really know what happened.

We know that Maureen Comey had been one of the lead prosecutors on the Puffy Combs case, that that result had happened about a couple of weeks ago. Last week, two things about her father came out. One, that the Justice Department may be looking at him again related to the Russia investigation. That is something that he's been investigated at as nauseam about, including by a special counsel under Trump's first term. We also learned last week, we reported that in the day after Comey had posted a photo on Instagram that the Secret Service had investigated

as a potential threat to the president, Comey himself and his wife were followed by the Secret Service, both through physical surveillance as they drove home from vacation, but also they tracked his phone. And here you have Spurr being fired amid this huge firestorm that has engulfed the Trump administration about the Epstein case. As Tom Winter has pointed out, there is no client list, but whatever there is in the Epstein files,

Maureen Comey knows. She brought the prosecution of Jeffrey Epstein in 2019 during the first Trump term, and it was just a month after that that Epstein hung himself in his cell room. And she was one of the lead prosecutors on that case. Yeah, Michael, on that point, so the timing of this, I think is what caught a lot of people by attention.

Of course, there's a connection to her father and she prosecuted other cases, but as the president is caught up in this firestorm around Jeffrey Epstein, conveniently one of the prosecutors who went after him is fired. She had been arguing against the disclosure of any more information because there's sensitive information obviously about young victims.

She had all the reasons that prosecutors have valid. What is your sense of any connection between her firing and what's happening right now between the White House, all of his supporters and Jeffrey Epstein? We don't know. Look, this is something that far-right agitators had been pushing for for some time to get rid of her. They had identified her as Comey's daughter. And, you know, loyalty is obviously something incredibly important to the MAGA movement and to Trump. And the Trump administration in its second term has used its

power both externally and internally in highly unusual and extraordinary ways. There are a slew of prosecutors that have been fired by the department, many of them who worked on January 6 investigations. That's something we've never seen before, where the department just comes in and clears out prosecutors who worked on controversial cases or at least controversial cases to the president of the United States. So as much as the department has operated differently as they did in the case of Mayor

Adams where they cut this highly unusual deal to end his criminal prosecution, internally, personnel-wise, the administration has used its power to exact vengeance and to get rid of people that worked on cases that they didn't like. All right. New York Times investigative reporter Michael Schmidt. Thank you very much. His latest reporting available to read online right now at the New York Times. And still ahead on Morning Joe, we'll dig into new reporting on whether President Trump may try to fire Federal Reserve Chair

Jerome Powell. Plus the latest out of the Middle East after Israel attacked Syria's capital. And a reminder, the Morning Joe podcast is available each weekday featuring our full conversations and analysis. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back. He's a terrible Fed chair. I was surprised he was appointed. I was surprised, frankly, that Biden put him in and extended him. But they did.

It is my pleasure and my honor to announce my nomination of Jerome Powell to be the next chairman of the Federal Reserve. Congratulations, Joe. It's as if videotape doesn't exist, you know? It's like blaming Democrats for Jeffrey Epstein, blaming Joe Biden for Jerome Powell, Donald Trump supporters blaming Merrick Garland for bringing the case against Jeffrey Epstein. And again, it's just kind of like we can't do the whole, let's go to tape. So anyway, it's very it's fascinating Mika. What's happening now with Jerome Powell. There was talk a lot of talk about him possibly being fired and certainly

letters being written to push for the firing the markets very quickly reacted to that news. And at least for yesterday, there was a big veto from the markets and also from people who run the economy and a lot of Republican senators. Well, President Trump says he has no intention of firing the man that he appointed to serve as federal reserve chair. Wrongly blaming former President Joe Biden there in that soundbite coming in. This comes despite reports that the president told Republican lawmakers during a Tuesday

night meeting that he intends to fire Fed Chair Jerome Powell, a move many point out he cannot legally make. According to the New York Times, during that meeting, Trump showed a draft letter to Fire Powell and asked lawmakers if he should do it. However, during an Oval Office meeting with the Crown Prince of Bahrain yesterday, Trump denied the report. Have you drafted a letter? I haven't drafted a letter.

So you didn't show a letter to Republican lawmakers last night? No, I talked about the concept of fire him. I said, what do you think? Almost every one of them said I should. But during the conversation, when we were talking about it, I asked, what would you do about that? They all said we'd fire him. Powell has repeatedly said that he will not leave the central bank

if Trump tries to fire him or early or orders him to leave with us. We have our co-host of our fourth hour contributing writer at the Atlantic, Jonathan LaMere, White House reporter for Bloomberg News, Josh Wingrove, and columnist and associate editor for The Washington Post, David Ignatius. LaMere, I'd love to just start this off with you with does Donald Trump want the face off with Jerome Powell? Because I think Jerome Powell has made it very clear. The Fed should be independent and the president cannot fire him.

Powell has made that argument repeatedly and certainly the history backs him up, but Donald Trump hates him. Let's be clear about this. President Trump, fairly or not, has blamed Jerome Powell for what he sees as flaws in the economy. He has nicknamed him too late Powell, thinking that interest rates should be cut and Powell's moved too late.

He has taken to social posts to insult him in any matter of ways. Powell has made clear he's not going anywhere. Trump has agitated wanting to push him out. And yesterday we got reporting that he was talking to House Republicans, as you just noted, saying, well, should I oust him? What do you think? And the consensus was, yes, you should.

But then word got out, we saw what the markets did, and at the end of the day, we're reminded once again, the bond market gets a vote when it comes to things with the economy. So Trump you know has not moved just yet. You have Powell left twisting in the wind but he's made it clear he's not going anywhere at least not yet. Josh Wingrove you're obviously you cover this so closely give us your latest reporting as to what you believe is Powell's future and this face off with Trump.

Yeah. Good morning. Thank you for having me. It's been a whirlwind 36 hours. I mean, that meeting you mentioned, that letter reportedly, according to the Times, drafted by FHFA director Bill Pulte. He's demurring on whether that was the case. But this is how Trump, you know, tosses around ideas, right? He toys with things. He pulls his staff. He pulls Republican lawmakers. And that's often a leading indicator of where you think he is going. But he also manages to shift the goalposts.

And I think one thing that we shouldn't lose sight of yesterday, even with him saying it's quote highly unlikely that he will move on from Powell or try to fire Powell unless he has to go for fraud. That second clause is very important, but because it is coming as Trump is trying to sort of build a case and his allies are helping him do this against Powell on grounds of the Fed's renovation project. It's essentially a new line of attacks. So Trump is saying, you know, no, I'm not going to go try to fire him.

But there's this other project. And in the hours after that, some of his aides are clamoring and planning to go visit in person this project. And so, that's part of the sort of confounding factor here. You have Trump saying, indicating to these lawmakers privately, hey, I think I might do it, are reporting that as of yesterday morning that he was likely to try to fire Powell. The White House has acknowledged previously

that they were looking for legal avenues to at least try to do that, but it is far from clear and almost surely would be some kind of fight unless Powell decided to step away. And then, as you mentioned, midday hit that denial. But, you know, we'll see where this goes. But I should note, the Fed is not run exclusively by Jay Powell.

I mean, they held rates in June in what was a unanimous decision. They're expected to hold rates again. And one of the things that is preventing them from moving on the current rate is tariff uncertainty. Of course, President Trump's own tariffs, a whole whack of which, are poised to go in on August 1st after the next Fed meeting. So there's a lot of moving parts on this one. I agree with Jonathan. Trump cannot get Jay Powell off his mind. He's really ticked about him. He wants lower rates, but it's not just Jay Powell that wants those lower rates. So

President Trump is looking for other lines of attack. Well, if President Trump does not fire the chairman, it might be because of a constituency he respects. Rich guys, top banking CEOs, are coming to Powell's defense now, warning of the consequences if the Fed chair is fired. The Fed was set up to be independent and have a dual mandate, unemployment, price stability, i.e. inflation. And their job is to manage, add their management economy through short-term interest rate adjustments to accomplish that outcome. And I think a stable central bank is really very important, and very important in the United States because of this size economy with $30 trillion plus of debt out there held

all over the world with the dependence upon trade flows. The stability of this country is actually necessary and important to the whole world. And I think a stable Fed and independent Fed is key to that. Stability is a word we heard a lot yesterday. That was Bank of America CEO Brian Moynihan yesterday on CNBC. Also the leaders of Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan Chase, Citigroup have spoken out this week about the importance of an independent Federal Reserve. Joe?

Yeah. I mean, and David Ignatius, let's just look at where we are right now financially as a nation. We've got a $37 trillion debt. debt, this big, bodacious, budget-busting bill that, whatever they called it, adds $4 trillion additional to the Congressional Budget Office and most independent analysts agree, our federal debt is going to go up another $20 trillion over the next decade. That means we're going to be close to $60 trillion in debt. The bond markets are already shaky. Inflation, it's being held down right now.

You look at the numbers yesterday, though. You look at the warnings about tariffs. You look at all the other things that are going on. And right now, the Fed's doing everything they can to stop that from exploding. And for inflation going back up again, it's hard to imagine anybody in America, anybody across the world that understands how bond markets work would think that firing the Fed chairman and taking away that independent voice is a smart thing to do. So the Wall Street Journal in an editorial this morning had three words were, don't do it. And the reason is obvious that around the world, in every financial center, there's a sense that J-Powell is one of the people who is keeping politics from overwhelming fiscal economic decisions in this administration. This current period is a demonstration of why an independent Federal Reserve is important.

You have strong pressure from a president who, like most presidents, wants to goose the economy with lower rates, and you have a Fed Chairman saying, wait a minute, there are inflationary pressures in the economy because of tariffs. We have early signs that those are actually pushing up inflation. Now is not the time. So it's a moment that really tests the integrity of our financial system, the effect on financial markets in the US and around the world of actually going ahead and firing J-PAL would be enormous. I think Trump knows that. That's why he's pulled back. But it's rare to see this degree of consensus on anything from people in the financial markets.

They are united in thinking getting rid of J-PAL would be a disaster. David, again, just one more item for you as we turn to the Middle East. And amid its war in Gaza and recent strikes on Iran, Israel has now opened up a new line of attack in Syria, striking that country's capital city in broad daylight. Warplanes targeted the Syrian Defense Ministry and an area near the presidential palace. It comes amid fierce fighting between Syrian government forces and the country's Druze minority, which Israel has pledged to protect. A fragile ceasefire has since been announced, but continued clashes have been reported.

Secretary of State Marco Rubio called the situation both troubling and horrifying, and later suggested it was a misunderstanding between the opposing forces. David Ignatius, is that possible? So what's happening in Syria, like most things in the Middle East, is complicated. But Syria is a country with many small ethnic groups. One of them, the Druze, live in Syria, Israel, and Lebanon. They have very close relationships in Israel with the Israeli military. And the Israelis have been

intervening in recent days to protect the Druze from what they claim are attacks by the new regime. And as far as I understand what happened yesterday, this bombing of Damascus, repeatedly targeting the Syrian Defense Ministry, was an attempt to push back in this border campaign to support and defend the Druze. The new president of Syria, who's been backed by the United States, who's trying to unify this disparate country, accused the Israelis of trying to create endless chaos in this country, in effect saying, you're trying to prevent me from uniting the country again after all these years of division. So I think that we're likely to see in Syria, as for so many years in Lebanon, a fragmented country.

I think Israel probably believes that's in its security interest. As somebody who's been visiting Syria since 1981, I first went there. The idea of keeping this country permanently divided and all the little groups at war with each other really is tragic. And I hope the Israelis will back off and help the new president pull the country together. David, this of course comes on the heels of an exhaustive New York Times report talking about how Benjamin Netanyahu

over the past several years has never blown an opportunity to blow an opportunity for peace, for ceasefires, for tamping things down. And now here we have him ordering strikes in Syria, another country. I mean, at some point, Benjamin Netanyahu is going to run out of things to attack. And I must say, yesterday's attack, I'm sure raised a lot of eyebrows inside the administration, as you saw from Marco Rubio there, outside the administration, and across the region, who for many people, they believe, as the New York Times reporting showed, that Benjamin Netanyahu understands that when the gunfire stops, when the bombs stop dropping, he still faces an unlikely future politically

and legally at best. Now, Joe, to me, Benjamin, Netanyahu is in many ways a paradox. I like to separate two strands of this. In his campaign against Hezbollah and Iran itself, this ferocious attack that Israel launched, he took down Hezbollah in Lebanon and much of the Iranian regime that has been devoted, dedicated to Israel's destruction. And it's hard not to admire the way Israel conducted that campaign, ruthless though it was.

The Gaza war is something different. The Gaza war, my Israeli military friends tell me, should have ended in military terms a year ago. It continues on and on, in part because Netanyahu and his government simply don't have a plan for what comes next. And so the killing continues. So in the case of Gaza, I think it's really time for the Israelis want the hostages home. They want this war to end. On the other things, I think Netanyahu has achieved something that will last and be beneficial in terms of pushing Israel's sworn enemies back.

The Washington Post's David Ignatius, thank you very much for coming on this morning. And White House reporter for Bloomberg News, Josh Wingrump, thank you as well. His latest piece is available online right now. And coming up on Morning Joe, Golf Channel host Rich Lerner joins us from Northern Island, where the final major of the season is underway. Morning Joe is right back. When I was looking at the calendar for 2025, this was, you know, this was the the tournament that was probably, I don't know, circled even more so than the Masters for different reasons. So it's lovely to be coming in here already with the

major and everything else that's happened this year. So, you know, I'm excited with where my game is. I felt like I showed some really good signs last week and you know feel like I'm in a good spot and you know how to not that last week was a pure preparation week but it definitely I feel like it put me in a good spot heading into here. That's Rory McIlroy the PGA Tour's second ranked golfer previewing the Open Championship now underway this morning in his home country of Northern Ireland which is why he has had this circled on the calendar. Join us now from the Royal Portrush Golf Club in Northern Ireland, Golf Channel host Rich Lerner. Rich, it's great to see you. So obviously perhaps a mix of excitement and pressure for Rory

playing in front of the home fans. Yeah, well he came here in 2019, tremendous hype and it was all just sort of too much for Rory. He grew up about 50 miles from here, little town called Hollywood, a working man's club. And on the very first hole of that championship with all of his supporters here, he had a ball out of bounds and he made a quadruple bogey eight, shot 79 in the opening round. It was akin to a big sporting event, say like, we're excited for it. I'm thinking about Tyson and Spinks,

and it's over in 91 seconds. This is a different Rory. Six years later, he's dealt with enormous pressure. We know what he did at the Masters in April, and he's back, I think, clear-minded. He's playing some really good golf, and I think should he win this week, it would complete one of the most consequential and emotional seasons in the history of the sport,

completing the career grand slam at the Masters after 11 years, trying and failing, all the hope and the heartbreak. And finally, a spot in the hallowed turf in this sport. One of six to have won all four major championships and then to finish it off by coming home where he grew up a boyhood dream and winning it would be one for the ages.

Yeah we saw all that emotion coming out of him after the win at Augusta back in April kind of getting that monkey off his back would be extraordinary now to win the open on his home turf. By the way we saw Rory with the Versant logo on his bag there. That's the new media company that will be the home

to both MSNBC and Golf Channel among others kind of a cool touch from Rory there. Let me ask you Rich about Scotty. He's off this morning. He's already carded a birdie on the third hole. I think he's on the fifth as we speak. He's playing well. He's had another good year. It seems like he doesn't have bad years. But there was an interesting moment at the press availability this week when he kind of gave a meditation on winning, when he said,

all this winning in golf isn't what's fulfilling about life. He's like, it's not the stuff that really touches your heart. It's sort of he's taking this big picture view of where he is in his life and his career. He says it doesn't mean I want to win any less. I just understand what winning means in terms of being a priority in my own life. I liked it. I spoke to his mom, Diane. He was raised in in an interesting family, Scott. His mom, Diane was a COO of some prestigious

law firms. His dad Scott was a stay-at-home father. I don't think Scotty had sort of an archetypal male role model, you know, this sort of idea where you have to, you know, kill what you eat, be the toughest guy in the room. Scotty can be introspective. I asked Diane last year, I said, please help me as a reporter understand why your son is so good at what he does and what she said was simple and powerful. She said, Scotty is not his score. Anybody who's played sports at the highest level would understand that. I once asked David Duvall shortly after he won the open championship in 2001 how it struck him. And he said something that floored me.

He said it was an existential moment for me. I said, what do you mean by that? He said, well, I stared at the Claret jug, and I still felt empty. In other words, no amount of wins can fill whatever hole might be inside of you. And for Scottie, it's really very simple, his approach. It's faith, it's family, and then it's finishing first.

Scotty is not sort of your prototype 2025 celebrity athlete. You're not going to see Scotty Scheffler show up at the red carpet at the Met Gala. You're not going to see Scotty Scheffler on a yacht in the Mediterranean. You're going to see Scotty Scheffler at tournaments contending and winning a lot. And when all is said and done, I think because he has this balance, I think you're going to see Scottie as one of the greatest players of all time. Boy, and what a great difference that attitude, that approach must have in massive tournaments like this and he's not his golf score is the antithesis of what we've heard for years some of the greatest NFL coaches have said you are what the scoreboard says

you are so yeah that's pretty awesome let's's talk about the Open, or as old guys like me would call it, the British Open. Now even in America, we're starting to call it the Open. But some of the great, I love it. It is, the Masters is, yeah, the Masters is wonderful. Watching the Open, watching the British Open, always one of my favorite tournaments of the year. And the history, talk about the history of the British Open, what it means. I mean, you go back to 77 and there was Watson and Nicholas and 84.

It was, you know, it was Seve at St. Andrews. The history is extraordinary, even in our lifetime. Why does the British Open? Why does the open mean so much to the game of golf? It's the oldest championship goes to 1860 and I think Joe I love all the points that you made In a world that is an AI fueled world that that's spinning faster an AI-fueled world that's spinning faster, that I can comprehend, this is as it always was.

It is old courses in old towns with old pubs. It is played along the ground, into the wind, along dramatic rugged coastlines, on golf courses that are sort of what I would call, they're Botox-free. They're not artificially enhanced, like so many American beauties. There's comfort in it.

When you mentioned, you know, men of our age, maybe we're having the Avidart moment. Joe, well, you're up early anyway because of the show, but you know, you get up at that certain hour, you get up at that certain hour and you flip it on, and there it is. The palette colors are different. It's gray and brown and green and sort of moody. And you see guys with beanies on and the umbrellas are up and rain and wind add to

the romance of it all in the same way that snow does at Lambeau Field for Packers game in January. And then on top of that, we have our memories, the duel in the sun, Watson and Nicklaus in 1977, and then Tiger at St. Andrews in 2000, and just keep going. So this is part of the very fabric of the game of golf. Yeah, and you know, Jonathan Amir, Rich Zahrai, that this is, I mean, it's man versus the elements. I mean, you know, they're in some of the most, they play golf in some of the most inhospitable

weather. If the fans are really lucky and the golfers are really unfortunate, you'll have like 40 mile an hour winds, rain going sideways, and these guys going, okay, am I really gonna have to get a two iron out like to get this ball down the fairway? It is, I mean, it is the best golfers in the world in some of the toughest elements and it's on of course will links course which just my favorite it's it's special

isn't it Jonathan. No question the best golfers in some of the worst weather at times I love the description there from Richard describing the course as Moody that feels right so rich in our last moments here we hit some of the the headliners but talk to us about the rest of the field. Are there any maybe a sleeper or two you're keeping your eye on who might make a real run this weekend? I like a guy Ryan Fox to quote my partner Brando Chamblee. He's a guy

who's kind of country strong, looks like he can carry a washing machine up a couple flights of stairs. He's from New Zealand. His dad is a famous rugby player. I think look for one of the seasoned guys very early, and it was interesting. Phil Mickelson popping up on the leaderboard. He's 55 years old. He's an Open Champ from 2013.

On the Lynx courses, where power is not the overwhelming factor it can be. On American golf courses, where guile and experience and nuance seem to matter a little bit more, the legends can sort of reach for greatness one last time, the way Tom Watson did in 2009, Greg Norman led at the age of 53 in 2008. Mickelson, by the way, we know this is a curious story.

This was a beloved figure. He's the oldest major champion of all time, having won the PGA back in 2021. And I would say this is an interesting point. Had he walked into the night at Kiowa four years ago, he would have been one of the five most popular players of all time. Instead, he took the Godfather offer from the Saudis. He tried to recruit players.

He tried to take down the PGA Tour and he's something of a pariah now. And I think a lot of people have mixed feelings about Phil but he's back out doing what he's done so well. He is in arguably one of the greatest players of all time but it's it's complicated that you know when you assess the legacy of Phil Mickelson but here he is again. All right you can watch coverage of the Open Championship today through Sunday on NBC, USA Network and Peacock. Plus, live studio coverage on Golf Channel, of course. Golf Channel host Rich Lerner, thank you very much for being on the show with us.

We really appreciate it. Take care. And still love you.