Morning Joe - Reflecting on 25 years since the September 11th terrorist attacks

Episode Date: September 11, 2026

September 11, 2026 – 6am:Morning Joe reflects on 25 years since the September 11 terrorist attacksWSJ Editorial Board: The 9/11 lessons for next timeThe Bulwark: ‘A Letter to Myself’ by Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling (Ret.)The families of 9/11 victims remember their loved ones: Willie Giest interviews Anthoula Katsimatides who lost her brother, FDNY firefighter John Katsimatides on 9/11 To listen to this show and other MS podcasts without ads, sign up for MS NOW Premium on Apple Podcasts. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe on this Friday, September 11th, 25 years since the 9-11 terrorist attacks. Americans across the nation will come together today to remember the 2,97 people who died on September 11th, 2001, as well as the first responders and recovery workers who fought through the debris and dust to try to help throughout the morning. The country will observe several, moments of silence to honor the lives lost as a result of that dark day, 25 years ago. At 8.46 a.m., American Airlines Flight 11 crashed into the North Tower of the World Trade Center in New York City. Moments later, at 903 a.m., United Airlines Flight 175 was flown into the South Tower. Both towers would later collapse, and 2,753 people would drop.

be killed. At 9.37 a.m., American Airlines Flight 77 hit the western side of the Pentagon, cutting the lives of nearly 200 people too short. And at 10.03 a.m., United Airlines Flight 93 crashed into an open field near the town of Shanksville, Pennsylvania, after crew members and passengers learned of the attacks on the ground and stormed the cockpit. A bell will ring and silence will follow for each fatal moment. And today, for the first time, we will also stop to observe a moment of silence for the thousands of people who have since died from diseases linked to their exposure to the toxic aftermath of those attacks. You know, it's really hard for me to believe, almost impossible for me to believe, that it's

been 25 years. I know, Mika, you were actually down. You ran down that morning and reported from Ground Zero for CBS. For four or five weeks, you were there, Byron Pitts watching as the first tower collapsed. And I know you've written something from the newsletter where you say it feels like yesterday. That's how it feels for me. It's just remarkable that it's been a quarter century. I can't believe it. And for those not born, or for those too young to remember, they'll never understand the shock that so many Americans felt. But I will tell you that they'll never understand, especially in these days, the pride that we Americans felt. The coming together, unlike anything I've seen in my entire lifetime.

If the terrorists meant to tear us apart, they actually brought us more closely together. It was unlike anything I'd ever seen and something that I pray that we can see again, a United Nation, without the tragedy. Willie, I want to show you really quickly and our friends watching the fronts of the papers today. This is the New York Times. a beautiful picture of a Statue of Liberty and the foreground and behind it, of course, the Twin Towers. The Wall Street Journal talking about the long shadow of 9-11, and I think the Wall Street Journal has done such an extraordinary job this week leading up to it and talking in part, Willie, about how if Osama bin Laden wanted to do.

destroy America financially or chase people away from lower Manhattan. The opposite happened. As Wall Street Journal said, it's more thriving. It's more energized. And its property values are higher today than they've ever been. It's just absolutely gorgeous down there. My youngest son went down this week to the memorial, and his friend deeply moved. This is a New York Post in our hearts and the daily news, heartache, heroism, and hope. And Willie, they seem inseparable on this day, the lives we lost, the heroes we gained, and the memories that stay with us 25 years. And I'm sure for you, it has to feel like it just happened yesterday.

It does. I think it feels that way to anyone who was alive in that time. I mean, 25 years is a long time, and yet it's so fresh in our minds. But we've been talking a little bit about this. There's a generation that wasn't alive when it happened. And for them, it feels perhaps like the Kennedy assassination or Pearl Harbor, a moment in history whose horror they understand but didn't experience firsthand. And just being down here, even coming in guys down the West Side Highway, Mika, you'll remember this. I was just thinking about, those fire trucks streaming south as everyone else was running north to get away from the danger. And all those firefighters and police officers from the NYPD and the Port Authority that were coming. And I was feeling that this morning. And you get down here and you're struck first by just how beautiful and serene it is at this sacred ground, this sacred American ground. And that's how it felt 25 years ago at this moment. Everyone remembers it was a beautiful clear Tuesday morning.

It was a primary election day in New York City. And just how quickly that was shattered and how quickly the world changed. I mean, at this time, 6 o'clock in the morning on September 11th, it was business as usual. The first hijackers had boarded their planes in Portland, Maine to take a commuter flight to Boston to begin this day of horror. But by 1030 in the morning, both of the towers had collapsed. A ring of the Pentagon had collapsed. Flight 93 had crashed into an open field in Shanksville, Pennsylvania. The president of the United States, George W. Bush, had authorized the shootdown of commercial

planes before all air traffic was grounded in a first in this country. So the beauty that was shattered that day and just how the world changed and you follow it along into the wars in Afghanistan, the war in Iraq, and then working with veterans of those wars. Now, that's how far out we are. Men and women who lost their lives in war, men and women whose lives were changed by injuries in those wars, seen and unseen. The tentacles are so long from what happened when those planes first hit the buildings down here. And it just has to be said, for anyone who hasn't been down here, the 9-11 Memorial Museum, as you say, Joe, is one of the most staggeringly beautiful

and heartbreaking and devastating places you will ever visit. You really need to come down here and see it and feel what happened on this day and feel both the victims and the heroes of 9-11. And what we, of course, ache still for the victims and their families, what brought Americans together was that pain, but it was also the heroism everywhere you looked, the heroism of those firefighters. In Mika's essay this morning,

she recounts how she got into CBS news, morning early thinking like you said she was going to cover a mare's race bill felling waved her go go go go down get down there and she she took off her shoes and ran all the way down there and one of the things that i remember john lemur um that really stood out in her writing was you know they they they found in a school after they ran away from the collapsing tower, they found a phone line. And it soon became a place where firemen would come. They would go on the air, and some would say goodbye to their families, and just had the look of people that knew.

They were going back in the tower. And they were probably spending their last hour on Earth. They knew it. They did it anyway. You look at the heroes on Flight 93, everybody, at least in our generation, near the story about Todd Beamer, finding out from an operator on the ground what happened, asking her to say the Lord's Prayer with him, and then others in the back congregating around, just saying they weren't going to let this plane crash into the Capitol or into the White House. And he said, let's roll. They ran, broke down the doors, sacrificed themselves, saved countless lives. There was one story after another.

And like Mika, you were a younger reporter on that day and saw this firsthand yourself. Yeah, it was indeed primary day. I spent those morning after the towers were struck, I was directed, my assignment editor, directed me to one of the major hospitals. in New York City, thinking there would be a wave of survivors who would be there. And what was so jarring, the images I keep coming back to is the row of empty hospital beds because they were never filled because there weren't nearly the survivors that people had had fought. And I was down at Ground Zero the next day, and like Mika saw things, you'll never, ever forget.

But I wrote about the Atlantic, in the Atlantic this week, about my experiences and how New York has changed. And indeed, the city came back and revitalized itself in ways. that if people wanted to do us harm 25 years ago, they failed. And you also, when you went downtown, and you just saw how horribly Al-Qaeda had failed because you had fire trucks from Alabama, from Wyoming, from places all over America that had, I'm sure, denigrated New York City for years. they came here and they were all New Yorkers.

And you felt as you went downtown love unity, but you felt a real defiance. I can't say the two words that a lot of them said towards al-Qaeda in those weeks and months after. But there was a real defiance. No, nobody, nobody is going to knock this down. We are going to get back up. We're going to take care of our own.

are going to protect those that can't protect themselves, and we're going to fight back. Yeah, no question about that. And this was not even a year after a bitterly contested presidential election. The nation had gone into that morning pretty divided, and that all changed in the blink of an eye. Of course, remember a couple days after the attacks, President George Zoy Bush came with his bullhorn, that sort of summing up that sense of defiance, standing with firefighters, saying, oh, those who knocked down these buildings will hear from us soon. But it was smaller things in that. It was. It was, you know, fire companies from Tennessee or, or, or, or, or, or, Missouri. It was donations from California, but also Montana. Like, everyone wanted to rush to help.

And another thing I covered in the weeks afterwards, so many funerals of these firefighters. And the FDNY has a tradition where, you know, if a firefighter dies in the line of duty, hundreds of firefighters go and attend those services. They always make sure the crowds are huge. But because there were so many fire funerals and because so many firefighters were still working on the pit trying to recover remains. There simply weren't enough FD and Y members to attend these funerals. So what happened? Firefighters from all over the country, for weeks, four months would descend upon New York

City to attend those funerals to make sure the sacrifice was honored as they should be. Well, and I will say, too, for younger Americans that do not remember that time and only know the Rudy Giuliani of 2024 and beyond, Rudy Giuliani filled. a vital, vital gap played a vital role in those first few days. I will tell you, I will say it, George W. Bush did not find his voice as America's leader until he got on that pile of scrap and said, we're hearing you. And the whole world is hearing you and they will hear you soon. But in between that day and the moments after 9-11, Rudy Giuliani was there. He was an authoritative force in the most positive way.

He took control of the situation. He was even, you know, Time magazine, of course, liberals didn't like it. Time magazine called him America's mayor. We weren't happy about that. But Giuliani did an incredible job. Hillary Clinton, of course, did George Pataki. The leaders of New York all did a really good job in stepping forward. And Giuliani went to all of those funerals.

He did. He went as many as he could. Yeah, as many as he could. I want to get to Richard Haas, but first I want to read the Wall Street Journal editorial board and their lead editorial this morning. It's the 9-11 lessons for next time. And the editor's write in part this. America's in a sour mood these days,

so it's not surprising that on the anniversary of the terrorist attacks, that September morning, 25 years ago, were being told of our country's failures. We are lectured that America overreacted, squandered blood and treasure, betrayed its principles, and set the country on the path to national decline.

If you flew in this week after 25 years on Mars, you might think Osama bin Laden had won. Don't believe it. We were there that day, across the street from the Twin Towers, and we see a different legacy. America suffered a sneak attack, the worst since Pearl Harbor, and more deadly. The country responded with self-sacrifice, patriotic unity, at least for a time, and enough righteous fury to avenge those 2,977 murders. Measureed by the lack of any similar attack in 25 years, the global war on terror qualifies as a success. A crucial lesson of 9-11 is that the terrorists wanted to destroy America not for what it did, but for what it is. They loathed our freedom and prosperity, and adversaries still do. One mistake that led to 9-11 was underestimating that loathing of the inhumanity it could produce.

they will seek mass destruction if they gain the ability. By all means, honor the firemen and the police and others who gave their lives on 9-11. But honor the dead as well by recalling the horror of that day and resolving to do what is needed so it doesn't happen again. Now, Richard, that was edited the Wall Street Journal editorial page that, of course we made mistakes along the way. Of course Iraq was a mistake. We blundered in many ways, but you look over the 25 years for those who somehow said Osama bin Laden won. They're just, they're looking at the world through a twisted and distorted frame.

No, there's an important lesson there. What terrorists are good at is killing and destroying, but they're not good at building. And in that sense, the terrorist loss. And if you look at the last 25 years, it's not the history, if you will, of the aftermath of 9-11. Because again, they left no legacy in a positive, creative sense, the fact that this country was united. Remember Le Monde, New Somtouza, Medican, Mettin, Nond. We are all Americans now. Right.

Not just the country came together. The world came together. An extraordinary show. I think it was five or six days later. Joe, you remember? What did George W. Bush do after he found his voice in New York? He went to the mosque in Washington. And he said, it is un-American for one American to turn on another because of their faith or the way they dressed.

We have got to come together now. It was an extraordinary moment. And I think the lesson is, and I think you're doing exactly the right thing, for young people, this could be the Peloponnesian War. Roughly half of America was either not born, was too young to really experience this. So I think we owe it. I think we owe it to those who lost their lives. I think we owe it to ourselves. We have got to teach this because the lessons of this are too important.

to fade. And Willie, we've got to teach it. And of course, yes, let's talk about the mistakes America made. Let's talk about how we shouldn't have used 9-11 and gone into Iraq, the disaster of that and other missteps along the way. But again, also in those history lessons have to be taught the heroism, the sacrifice, the unity that this country felt. And I say that, Willie, not only for American students, but for students across the globe. I like Richard, and I'm sure you and me, I talk to foreign leaders all the time and they say, oh, what's going on in America? You all are so divided. You're weaker. I said, no, you don't understand. That's that we, we play hard. We fight hard. And yes, we're divided politically. But watch out. When push comes to shove,

Americas are always united. Americans come together when they need to come together, and Americans will fight side by side if they'd be. And I just think that lesson has been lost over the past 25 years, looking at all the mistakes at this country made following 9-11. Without question. And one of the stories of our time is the loss of faith in institutions, and we can trace that as far back as you want to. But since 9-11, it's, the Iraq war, it's the financial crisis, it's Katrina, we can go on and on. And there is a generation as the father of two teenagers, and you guys I know get this, and John gets it too. They've only kind of grown up in this political climate of division and confrontation and the other side of Americans are bad or evil or whatever our politicians are trying to convince us of. It's almost hard for our children to imagine the feeling you're describing on September 11th and on September 12th. and the way we felt and the unity around going into Afghanistan to avenge these attacks

and also to prevent the next attack, which it did. Iraq, of course, is where it began to fall apart. But really today, for me and a lot of people, is about the lives lost here, the lives changed here, the men and women who went to work up the elevators and buildings that stood behind me, thinking it was another Tuesday morning, and instead we're greeted by commercial airplanes slamming into the side of the building. thinking about the phone calls home, the voicemails that were left, the panicked calls to 911, is there any way you can get a helicopter on the roof? Is there any way you can get up to me?

And of course, the firefighters, who again, when everyone was running north, ran south up into the buildings, 10 house, the fire department that is right here in almost in the footprint of the South Tower. If you walk outside that firehouse, you look straight up at the building. They were literally the first responders to 9-11. lost three firefighters that day, 343 total in the FDNY. And as we've been talking about, and we'll talk about some more this morning, many, many more lost since from the sicknesses from breathing in this toxic air down here. So there are the big questions of geopolitics about how we respond to things like this in the future, big questions about unity, but also,

Mika, the personal stories of people you know and I know from my hometown in New Jersey and friends of ours and members of my family who lived through this and some who did not. I'm thinking about them and their families today. And Willie, you mentioned the 911 calls. We're going to coming up here from some of the dispatchers who were working that day. Also, reflections and insights from historian John Meacham and General Mark Hurdling. We'll be right back with more coverage of the 25th anniversary of 9-11. I didn't want us to lose our soul. I wanted to, I wanted to, as we defended our freedoms, I wanted people to remember how precious they are.

So one of the things that I did, and I think you were very much involved in this decision shortly thereafter, was to go to a mosque. And I did so because I was deeply concerned about stories of women of cover being harassed at shopping centers, particularly in Michigan. And, you know, it became clear to me that if this is an ideological struggle, which is what I viewed it is, and we forego one of the most important parts of our ideology, which is the freedom to worship the way you want to worship, all of a sudden the enemy has won a victory. And so that was part of my thinking. Now, that does seem like a mindset

from a lifetime ago. But I think most Americans would agree with President George W. Bush, who, of course, has a mixed legacy, but a couple of high moments, of course, PEPFAR, 25 million life saved in Africa, but also people talk about that moment when he went to the mosque, when he talked about us all being one America and how we needed to unite and not divide. Mika, before we get to our guests, I know that you don't really like to talk a whole lot about it. So people were wondering why I was summarizing what you said. It's because you wrote about it, but you don't like talking about 9-11. It's very, very emotional. If you're as it is for everybody, understand.

But just, if you can, give us some reflections. Well, I think a lot about the agony, not just of the moment and what happened, but in the hours and days after, you mentioned the hospitals. I remember sprinting to hospital and just seeing lines and lines of empty stretchers because there was nobody to save,

because there was nobody injured. It was just death and destruction. Another vivid memory is going to these city blocks where people had photos of their family members printed out, and they had put them up on fences, and they were carrying them around. And they were just holding on to just an impossible hope that somehow their family member had escaped. And there was nobody. There was nobody left after those towers went down.

Everybody in there lost their lives. And it was just hard for everybody to grasp even days after. I ran from the falling towers and stayed down there a block away. Again, as you said, talking to the firefighters. And I remember looking into the eyes of one firefighter who was certain he was walking to his death. And after talking to me, he just turned around and walked back in without flinching, doing his job. And it's hard to believe that it's 25 years on 9-11, 2001. My little girls were three and five. They're now 28 and 30. And another thing that I think of personally is just how guilty I felt going home five weeks later, being able to go home. Because of the thousands of people who went to work on that beautiful day, it's like the September sky is, you know, that you feel like the first day of school. For me, it was a new job, making new friends. And there was so much hope and promise in the air.

and it all went black. It all turned so dark, so quickly. I think there's a lot of us who feel there's a Jonathan Lamere book 4-911 or a Mika before 9-11. I remember her and she's different ever since that moment. So let's bring in presidential historian and Pulitzer Prize winning author, John Meacham, and decorated combat veteran and former commander of U.S. Army or a retired Army Lieutenant General Mark Hurdling, he's an MS now military analyst. And General, I'd just like to ask you about what you wrote about,

which is your 9-11 story, which starts before 9-11. You write in part this. This war is going to become personal. You will serve three tours in Iraq. Your two sons and a daughter-in-law will serve a combined 11 tours. Your wife will spend 11 years worrying about all of you. You will stand at memorial services for soldiers whom you knew and loved because they will have been part of your team. You will visit the wounded and present purple hearts.

You will visit their markers in cemeteries. You will watch families bear burdens most Americans will never see. Some of the people you will meet will remain with you for the rest of your life as friends or as a memory. 25 years from now, Americans will still be our lives. arguing about the decisions made after September 11th, they should. A democracy that sends its citizens to war has an obligation to examine those decisions, relentlessly. The invasion of Iraq, the mission creep in Afghanistan, intelligence failures, detention and interrogation, civilian casualties, counterinsurgency, nation building, and how the wars eventually end. Do not confuse those

judgments about policy and strategy with judgments about honorable service. So, General, why did you decide to write yourself a letter to, as Mika said, you know, we're all different before and after, but to Mark hurtling before September 11th? Joe, it was actually an idea of our editor at the bulwark, Sam Stein. He asked me, he said, you've got some experiences in and around 9-11. And I don't think he knew half the story because I start the letter by describing the day of 9-11, as so many people are doing today. I was on a four-day pass from the Pentagon, which I had just come to be assigned to about

a couple of weeks earlier as the vice director of the J-7, which is in charge of war plans and contingency operations. And what happened was I heard about the plane crash at a leisurely breakfast with my in-laws on eastern Long Island, immediately called the Pentagon. Our Navy executive officer told me, started to explain what they knew so far. And then he said, sir, I got to go. Something's happened in the building. And then we heard about the crash into the Pentagon after the second crash into the world trade. My wife and I jumped in the car, went through the Long Island Expressway, which was jammed,

got to the Barrazzan on the narrowest bridge about midnight. Police had it blocked off. I told them I had to work at the Pentagon and was trying to get back and was escorted across the bridge by a police officer, one of New York's finest. And when we got to the apex of the bridge, I looked across at Manhattan, and we could see the smoke and the lights and everything that was going on. And we took the next five hours drive in silence. My wife and I, as we went back to the Pentagon,

got there about five o'clock in the morning, and I immediately went to work in a building where you could still smell the fire and the jet fuel and the fumes of the day before and hearing about some of my comrades who had been killed that day or injured when the plane hit the Pentagon. But Sam Stein suggested our right about that,

but also what I had learned in the last of 11 years, which you just read is a small piece of that article. But I had learned a lot as a young colonel about to be promoted to Brigadier General in my first tour in the Pentagon. I learned how a nation goes to war. I learned how you have to separate tactics from strategy. I learned how America will come together, but they will soon separate and forget

about how plans are important, what you do in terms of decision making as a strategic leader or critical, how you address the challenges of a nation. I remember the first thing I was asked when I got back, I think it was two days later by Secretary Rumsfeld. He said, what are the other targets? Where else should we be defending inside of America? And we came up with a critical target list that had over 3,000 locations

that we needed to defend. And it was impossible. So anytime you're looking at strategy, you have to take risk on what should be defended and what you can mitigate. So all of those lessons as well as the ones that you've been talking about so far, the treatment of our fellow citizens, the going away from our values of all men are created equal, especially with Muslims during that period of time, how you communicate your fellow citizens when they're in fear of what's going to happen next. All of those things were issues that I learned over the next 25 years. The other thing I'll say is that our son, our oldest son, had just graduated from Wake Forest

and he was a second lieutenant in the Army. Our other son was at West Point as a freshman, a plea. And both of those sons and our daughter-in-law, who was also at West Point, one of our daughters-in-laws, spent 11 different tours in different camps. combat zones over the next 10, 15 years. So you know that when you're a military family, you're going to go to war. So for all the people that were at the World Trade Center site, on the airplanes, in the Pentagon that were killed that day, we miss all those and don't know the contributions they could have provided to the United States. That's the biggest pain

that I think about is how much we've missed from all those sons and daughters and parents and grandparents. We had good friends whose father watched the World Trade Center collapse knowing his daughter was in that building. And it's just the kind of memories that are generated from this event, like Pearl Harbor, like Gettysburg. You know, Willie was talking about how serene the scene is there this morning. You go to any place of terror. a catastrophe like the Pearl Harbor Memorial or the Gettysburg battlefield, and today it's pastoral because we remember the things that happened there, the lives that were lost, and what the nation suffered. And hopefully that will prevent us from being as divided as we are

today. And maybe the 25th anniversary will pull us back together and make us unified again. But that's a challenge. Very well said, General Hurtley, and we cannot express enough our gratitude to men like you, to children like yours and all the military families who, in this moment of horror and fear and terror in the country woke up that day and said, where's my pack? Where do you need me? Let's go. General, thank you so much for your reflections this morning. We appreciate it.

John Meacham, you, for a living, study eras of American history from the revolution forward, thinking about where we were on September 11th as a country, where we were on September 12th, in terms of our national unity, and where we are today this morning, 25 years later. What are your thoughts? Well, I think first it's a moral story, right? This was a clash. What happened this morning a quarter century ago was an uninvited clash between hope and fear, between love and death, between the worst of us and the best of us.

And the folks who got up and went to work, whether they were firemen or working in the building, they didn't know that evil was about to strike. And I think a lot about Flight 93 and Todd Beamer and the sacrifice, knowing that they would die. But following a scriptural injunction, you know, greater love have no man. than this than to lay down his life for his friends. And life in that verse can be translated as soul or breath. And you heard President Bush a moment ago talk about the soul of the country being on trial. And I think you see the best of us. You see the worst of human nature, the will of power, the bloodthirstiness at all costs, the murder of innocence. T.S. not C.E. The murder of innocent people. And there's a prayer in the old Episcopal prayer book that families are supposed to

read about, you read it at night, may I always live so that I will not be afraid to die. I also live so that I may not be afraid to die. And a day like this, an anniversary like this, should remind all of us that anything can happen at any time. And our first obligation is, our central obligation, is to try to live in a way that if the worst happens, we can say that we did our best. Historically, this was the beginning of a chaotic, still unfolding, uncertain 21st century. Only 12 years before, in November, 1989, the Berlin Wall came down. On Christmas Day, 1991, the Soviet Union dissolves. There was much talk about how liberal democracy.

how market capitalism and the more liberal institutions of free expression, a free press, a free capacity to determine your own destiny, an openness to others, an openness to immigrants, that this was the new era, that to some extent the great ferocity of the conflicting forces that had made the 20th century, the bloodiest century in human history. that those forces had somehow resolved and that the forces of light and of market capitalism, democratic capitalism, had prevailed. September 11th, 2001, it was a profound and still vivid reminder that those human forces, the forces for ill, are as alive in the world as the forces for good. And that's what we're called to do every day is to stand up against those ill forces.

John, I'm wondering we were talking about our children and a generation, certainly learning the dark side of history over the past 25 years. Curious, you and I and so many others who were drawn to history were drawn to history to read about the heroes, to read about Lincoln and his 30 years struggle to end slavery in America, a tortured, horrific struggle that ended in success. And then with his assassination a few days later, the FDR, getting us through the Depression, Churchill, saving Western civilization in the second half of 1940 in the beginning of 1940, in the beginning of 1941.

I'm wondering, will our children, will future generations learn the stories of 9-11, will they learn about the heroes? Will they learn about those firefighters that ran, as Mika said, ran south when everybody else was running north, who went up into the buildings, when everybody else was trying to escape the buildings, the heroism of so many civilians on that day? the things that made all of us so proud of this country. Will they remember that? Will we remember a time?

Will we see a time again when America was that unified? Well, the Bible is very much on my mind this morning. I think the answer to that is from the Song of Moses, his last great speech to the people of Israel, when he says, remember the days of old, remember the years of many generations, as thy father and he will tell thee thy elders and they will show thee. Will people remember?

They'll remember if we tell the story. And that's our central obligation. And remembrance in this sense is not a passive activity. It's not nostalgia. It's not sentimental. It's quite active. To remember is to revivify something. To remember is to make it real. And that's the power of story. that's the power of history is to tell examples that are either worth emulating or worth avoiding. Plutarch said that the point of history was to know what to follow and what to forswear. It's a great tension, right? The story tells us what to be or what not to be. And so I would argue that the heroes you're talking about, those who sacrificed for people they did not know, have a place in the American story in particular with the foot soldiers of Lexington and Concord and Gettysburg as the general was talking about all the way through Omaha Beach, but also the foot soldiers of suffrage.

the foot soldiers who faced violence in our native region, Joe, seeking the end of Jim Crow. America's been made America. And people like me have a lot of responsibility. We tell the story of great people at the pinnacle of power. And there are a lot of trumpets and there's a lot of triumph and there's a lot of tragedy. But the remarkable thing about American democracy, the amazing. thing is that history is shaped just as much by the people around whom there are no trumpets, but who are living those triumphs and those tragedies, names known and unknown.

And that's the point of the story. Historian John Meacham, thank you so much. And coming up on Morning Joe, we're going to talk about the state of U.S. counterterrorism efforts and whether we are more vulnerable today than in recent years, former acting FBI director Brian Driscoll joins us for that conversation. We'll be right back. On this 25th anniversary of September 11th of the live picture just before 7 o'clock in the morning as the flag is unfurled at the Pentagon, which was struck on this day 25 years ago.

Welcome back here to Ground Zero. Our next guest lost her brother John on this day 25 years ago in the terrorist attack on the towers behind me. And Thula Katzumatidis joins me now. I want to start into it first of all. 25 years later, I know that the grief probably comes in waves and it ebbs and it flows, but it's still very present on a day like this. Tell me about your brother, John. John Katsumatidis was only 31 years old, and he was someone who would just walk into a room and light it up. He was a spitfire, lived life to the fullest. It was full of energy.

and made everyone feel like he was their best friend. He was full of love and care for his family and his friends. But he was also a ridiculous jokester, prankster, absolute lunatic. We're looking at pictures of him right here, motorcycle guy, it looks like. Loved his Harleys, loved his country, loved his motherland, Greece, we're Greek. Just before 9-11, actually, he visited our little island of Nisitos. And we're really happy that he did that because he got to light a candle at the monastery there. And then the following week, you know, he died.

31 years old. Worked at Canter Fitzgerald, which lost more than 650 of its employees on a very high floor that day. What is it like for you, I'm curious, to be back in this place, to look down at the footprint of those towers, to see, as you were just saying, that little oasis of the Greek Orthodox Church behind us. What does it feel like 25 years later? Well, first of all, I have to say that I am so proud of this beautiful memorial that we've built. And the Greek Orthodox Church of St. Nicholas is just a beacon of light shining over the memorial.

And I've never seen it from this vantage point. So it fills me with inspiration. 25 years, it's a really long time, right? and it should feel like time heals our wounds. But having lived something so catastrophic and devastating, I feel like the wound will never really heal, no matter how much time has passed. I feel like what I have now is just a scar,

a hardened scar, but I don't want to get rid of it because I feel like that scar is the, reminder, right? It is the constant reminder to remember John in all his glory, you know, to remember to live vicariously and be happy the way he wanted me to be. I know he would have wanted me to be happy and to live life in color. And I think that scar is something that, you know, helps me talk about him, share his stories, remember the love that he gave so freely to everybody he met, and then to allow me to hope, you know, and to be a better person, all in his memory. I firmly believe that.

And you have picked up the torch from your brother. It seems to me you took his example and living a life of purpose, connecting 9-11 families, looking after them, a trustee of this. staggeringly heartbreaking, devastatingly beautiful museum behind us. Why has that part of the story been so important to you? It's so important because that memorial, that museum will be the official repository of John's memory and the nearly 3,000 people who died that day. It's the only way to continue their legacy and to tell their stories, not just of the tragic events of the day, but the aftermath of the day. It's the only way to educate all the younger generations.

who have no idea what happened on 9-11, who were born after 9-11. The museum is the most important part now, 25 years later. I can understand and see that if it wasn't for the museum, you know, we wouldn't be able to share as much as we do with the mass population that was born after 9-11. And for me, being a trustee of that board is so, so important. And I encourage all New Yorkers and all Americans and people around the world to visit and to learn and to memorialize and to remember.

It was important to get that right. And boy, did you all get it right with this museum. Trustee of the 9-11 Memorial Museum and Thula Katzimatis, thinking about you and your brother today. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you for what you do. And thank you for always remembering and continuing to report on the events of that day.

have to remember it's not just about 9-11 and the tragic events it's all about what happened on 9-12 i call that the 9-12 effect right the incredible emotional outpouring of support and love that came from complete strangers in this nation and around the world and that's what we need to maintain in this country we need to maintain that sense of love and community and unity you are a great messenger for that and dula thank you so much appreciate you being here with us on this day joe So beautiful. That was wonderful.

I will say, talking about that love, the day after, the weeks after, the months after, I remember going down a couple weeks after, two, three weeks after, and going through Lower Manhattan. And it was just silent. You would just walk through canyons of buildings. And people ask me what... But you could see the American flags in the windows. Everywhere.

You, you, you remember people asking me, hey, when I went back to Ben Skull, what was it like? I said, you know, it was like at the cathedral walking on those streets. It was like you were walking on a holy ground. There's nothing like it because of that 9-12 effect. You know, Richard Osama bin Laden and Al-Qaeda wanted that day, 9-11, to be, a turning point, a point of decline. They wanted that event to bring America down. Do they succeed?

Absolutely not. As you were saying before, terrorists can destroy, they can kill. That's an event. It's a tragic event. And what we just heard is what we rightfully do. We remember it. But they don't have much of a legacy beyond that. And we've had the last 25 years.

We've gotten some things right. We've gotten some things wrong. And the list of probably what we've gotten wrong is unfortunately long. War in Iraq, some of what we did in Afghanistan, what we're doing now in Iran. We mismanaged the rise of China. And the world in some ways has taken a turn for the worst. And Richard, on China, you have been saying for 25 years, America is so distracted by the Middle East that it continues to ignore the gravest challenge,

the greatest threat to American security and American power, and that is China. Greatest geopolitical threat. We now have other threats, from climate to AI. If we had had this conversation 25 years ago, and we'd said the United States is going to fight the Gulf War, the Iraq War, Afghanistan, now Iran, all these wars in this part of the world, which is a part of the world without great powers. unlike Europe, unlike Asia, you would have looked at me like you're nuts. This was going to become the defining region of American foreign policy. Inconceivable. But that's what we've allowed to happen. That's what we've done ourselves.

And historians, the John Meachams of the future, the strategists of the future, are going to scratch their heads. And why was it? The United States took its amazing inheritance, having won the Cold War on our terms, peacefully, where liberal democracy prevailed. and we then squandered so much of what we had in trying to transform the Middle East or initiating wars in the Middle East for what? And that will be one of the great question marks of history.

How did we so lose our way? And I don't think you can, by the way, blame it on 9-11, maybe to some extent. But these were independent decisions. It meant time and time again we had choices. And unfortunately, we know the phrase war of choice. We've made some bad choices. And Richard, if you could, talk us a little about over these 25 years. years, sort of the executive power has changed terms of foreign policy, the commanders-in-chief

being able to bypass Congress more and more to conduct these, to conduct these wars, and the strain it has put on our allies, we should note, we always should note, that the only time Article 5 was invoked by NATO was after September 11th to help us, and yet over those 25 years, we've consistently squandered that goodwill, that nature of alliances. Look, our allies are the great comparative advantage of American foreign policy. States wakes up every morning and we have this pool of partners. Europe, look at the economic and military strength of Europe, Asia, Japan, South Korea. That what a great force of leverage.

The Russians, the Chinese, wake up, and other than each other, they don't really have very much. And what we've done is alienated them increasingly. And again, going back to 9-11. You mentioned Article 5 being triggered for the only time in NATO's history. The rest of the world went to work with us in Afghanistan, sacrifice for it enormously. By the way, many of those countries that this administration insults daily. We're at the front of the line.

Many of those countries actually per capita sacrificed a great deal, Norway more, than any other country. Right. And we treat them as economic adversaries with tariffs or we disparage them and we talk about taking their territory. and so forth. So when you look at the last 25 years, it's hard to make the case. I'm sad to say that we've done a lot with our inheritance, with the opportunity, with the promise that we had.

You know, the good news going forward is there's so little about history that's inevitable. There's so little that's baked into the cake. It's the choices of often a small number of people, and particularly when it comes to foreign policy, Congress has negligible role. It was 50 years ago. their author Schlesinger wrote about the imperial presidency, not in the context of the Middle East,

but in the context of Vietnam, how presidents had disproportionate power. And it's true when it comes to foreign policy for better and for worse. Richard Haas, thank you very much for being here today. And as our coverage continues of 9-11, two and a half decades later, 25 years ago, NYPD dispatchers were called

to help save thousands of lives on September 11th, from guiding first responders through the chaos to relaying final messages of those trapped in the rubble. These dispatchers heard every moment from the other end of the line. For many of them, every voice and sound still remains in their memory all these years later. Joining us now live from Ground Zero, MS now investigative report Mark Santia, who spoke with some dispatchers who worked during the attacks. Mark? Mika, those dispatchers sat down with us saying they wanted their stories heard. They wanted the world to hear their voices.

Their voices on that day mattered. Their voices made a difference. They are the unsung and unseen heroes of 9-11. I also want to emphasize the audio you're about to hear and some of the images you're about to see may be disturbing. Police operator 1-3-7-5. with emergency. Certain sounds can evoke a memory. Other sounds can stop time. The North Tower is coming down. All you hear about, the North Tower is coming down. For this group of New Yorkers,

the sounds of September 11th, 2001, have not faded. You think about it every day. New York City Police Department dispatchers on 9-11, this team answer the call for help from across the city. Off-duty when the first plane hits, Crystal Johnson races to the communication. Center in Brooklyn. I was the only driver on the Brooklyn Bridge, and it was kind of scary to roll the window down and smell the smell. It's a smell that I'll never forget. At the office, she finds colleagues in distress. When I came in, a lot of them were crying. They're sitting with tissues and their hands and tears and their eyes and crying because the voices they were hearing. So many lives on the line, police and civilians, the dispatchers struggling to guide them to safety.

We had one call where the lady said the airplane wing was through the window, and she's standing there, and she see it's hot. And then, the radio transmission that changes everything, the NYPD's chief of department, Joseph Esposito, telling dispatch a second plane has hit the south tower. America is under attack. The calls for the hit by another aircraft. The calls for help increasingly desperate. Somebody help me. We're on such and such a floor, and he was like, get me out of here. He, the leader of an NYPD Technical Assistance Response Unit, or Teru, trapped.

with six of his team and several civilians. I'll never forget his voice, because you can tell they're afraid. It's dark. They can't see. So they're counting on me to get them out of there. This is what is coming over. To tell you the second tower is there?

Yes, he's about to collapse. One of those in danger, Officer Moira Smith, heroically helping hundreds escape only to end up trapped herself. Her radio call on speaker. She was like, but I don't know where I am. I don't know where I am.

So at that point, the radio room just gets eerie quiet, just quiet, you know, and everyone's listening to her. And she's trying to explain she's doing the best she can, but, you know, eventually she stopped talking. Panic strikes some dispatchers, too. I go outside to call my sister-in-law because she had my son. And, you know, just to let them know, I love you, I called my dad and Delaware told him I love him because I didn't think I was going to make a home because of, you know, I was. that attack. Some callers aware

they will never see their families again. Just tell my loved ones that I love them. Giving us their phone numbers to take messages and names relay this message. There were people that I did call back and just tell them Mr. Such and Such said to tell you that he loved you. Those are some of the messages. So I take comfort and knowing that I did deliver

some of the victim's last messages. The weight of their work on 9-11 taking an emotional toll. That night I went home. My daughter was in her room. My nephew was at my house. Everything was quiet. I went in the bathroom and I ran the shower and I cried. You know, I sat on the floor and I cried because it was just like,

what just happened? Because it's still not real. But all too real, even a quarter century later, are the physical consequences for Ray Ann. 23 years later, I was. diagnosed with uterine cancer. I didn't know it came from September 11th until I started treatment and my oncologists asked me, did I work September 11th? That's how we made the connection. Today, Ray Ann is cancer-free and proud of the work she and her colleagues did, knowing their voices

made a difference. I will continue to tell my story because the next generations need to know what happened to us, what we did on that day. I just hope my voice was a voice of comfort at the time, and I hope I was able to lead them where they needed to be. I mean, just like we remember their voices, I'm sure they remember ours. We asked the dispatchers what they learned about themselves and their colleagues that day. They said they learned just how resilient they could be, how compassionate they could be. And in the 25 years since 9-11, they all told us how intentional they are with time.

They make sure to go to birthday parties and holidays, and they are very quick to tell people they appreciate them and they love them. Mika, back to you. MS now investigative reporter Mark Santea live from Ground Zero. Thank you very much for that report. Willie, back to you now. Give us a sense of what we're going to be seeing down from Ground Zero and across the country throughout the day today. Yeah, Mika, so right now we've crossed seven of course. clock in the morning, the plaza here at the 9-11 Museum and Memorial is closed, open only to families

of the victims for the next hour or so. There is a feeling of solemn quiet down here right now, interrupted occasionally in the last few minutes by bagpipers from the FDNY, but that park, that plaza that you're looking at right now is closed just to the families who can walk around those footprints, those stunning memorials, and see and visit the names of their loved ones. We'll have a program that begins around 830 Eastern time here in New York. The dignitaries who will be here include four former presidents, President Clinton, President George W. Bush, President Obama, President Obama, and the First Ladies. Vice President J.D. Vance will be here. President Trump will be at the Pentagon today.

He won't be down here at Ground Zero. Former New York City Mayor Giuliani, Bloomberg, and current Mayor Mamdani, also among the many, many dignitaries from across the country and from this area who will be here. The times are etched into our memories. There will be moments of silence, the first one at 846, when the first plane hit the North Tower in the lower Manhattan, and going on from there as the reading of the names, the tradition, since these memorial services began of families of the victims reading names. Another moment of silence at 903 when flight 175 hit the South Tower, a moment of silence at 937 when flight 77 struck the Pentagon. And then at 959 here, a moment of silence when the South Tower fell.

At 1003, a moment of silence when Flight 93 crashed near Shanksville, Pennsylvania. Another at 1028 when the North Tower fell. And as you noted earlier, Mika, they've added this year the 9-11 Museum and Memorial. An additional moment of silence new this year for the victims who have died since 9-11. We know that long ago, many more people, the number exceeded who died of the toxic air they breathed down here than died actually on that day. Many more firefighters have died than the 343 members of the FDNY who died here that day. So a significant moment to acknowledge the victims over 25 years, not just on that day, but over a quarter of ascending. who died in this tragedy, Mika.

Thank you, Willie, for that. And coming up, we're going to be joined by former acting FBI director Brian Driscoll for insights on how the 9-11 attacks impacted the Bureau and the current state of the agency now 25 years later. Morning Joe, we'll be right back.