Morning Joe - Rob and Michele Reiner found dead in home

Episode Date: December 15, 2025

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Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Monday, December 15th, and we have breaking news on a number of stories for you this morning. The search continues this morning for a suspect in the deadly shooting Saturday afternoon at Brown University after a person of interest who was detained yesterday morning in a town not far from the campus in Providence, Rhode Island, has been released from custody. In Australia, at least 15 people are dead, including a child and more than 40 others injured after two gunmen opened fire during a Hanukkah celebration on Sydney's famed Bondi Beach late yesterday. But first, legendary Hollywood filmmaker Rob Reiner and his wife, Michelle, were found dead yesterday in their Los Angeles home. The couple's family confirmed the tragic news late last night, saying, quote, we are heartbroken by this. sudden loss. An investigation into the deaths is early and ongoing, but Los Angeles police say they are

investigating an apparent homicide. Authorities also say they are not seeking anyone as a suspect or a person of interest at this time. And we're hearing widespread reactions so far this morning to Rob and Michelle's death from Washington to Hollywood, California Governor Gavin Newsom saying he is heartbroken. And Los Angeles Mayor Karen Bass writes this is a devastating loss for our city and our country. President Barack Obama posts that the couple lived lives defined by purpose and will be remembered for the values they championed and the countless people they inspired. Actor Ben Stiller remembers Reiner as one of his favorite directors and laments the quote huge loss. And the Screen Actors Guild calls Reiner one of the most significant figures in the history of film and television.

Over the course of a decades-long career, Rob Reiner was a prolific presence, both behind and in front of the camera. Of course, he starred as Archie Bunker's son-in-law in the 1970s sitcom, all in the family, earning two Emmy Awards for his work on that show. Reiner then made his directorial debut with the 1984, for mockumentary and cult classic. This is Spinal Tap. He went on to further cement his status as one of Hollywood's most iconic directors with his work on films like When Harry Met Sally, the Princess Bride, and a few good men, which was nominated for Best Picture. Riner was also

a force in democratic politics, fighting for liberal causes like same-sex marriage. His wife, Michelle, also made her mark on Hollywood. She was a producer, actor, and photographer. And Joe, we remember his many, many appearances on Morning Joe. He was a friend as well. Yeah, he was a friend and just an unspeakable loss. And this is, you look at the body of his work. It's just extraordinary.

Of course, we grew up in our family, remembering him as many. hate had and the funny character in all in the family but but he grew up again as a screen actors guild said to be one one of the most influential directors one of the most influential people in the history of television and of movies and also of course make a very involved as well in politics but for those that knew the couple I absolutely absolutely loved them. And this is really being felt all across the country this morning. Such tragedy will be, of course, reporting on this throughout the morning as we get more information. And we will be having more guests on this and talking more about Reiner's legendary career, Mika.

Yeah. And the story of exactly what happened and how it happened is still unfolding. And there are details in some reports out there, but we are triple sourcing. Again, the tragedy itself is a huge story, given his impact on politics and on the film industry and Hollywood. Two other major stories that are still unfolding right now from over the weekend, the search continues this morning for a suspect in the deadly shooting Saturday afternoon at Brown University. A person of interest who was detained yesterday morning in a town not far from the campus in Providence, Rhode Island, has been released from custody, the state's attorney general and the city's mayor addressed this development late last night.

Certainly there was some degree of evidence that pointed to this individual, but that evidence needed to be corroborated and confirmed. And over the last 24 hours leading into just very, very recently, that evidence now points in a different direction. We know that this is likely to cause fresh anxiety for our community, and we want to reiterate what we said earlier, which remains true, which is, ever since the initial call, now a day and a half ago, we have not received any credible or specific threats to the Providence community. And so the status of safety in our community remains unchanged, and we believe that we believe.

that you remain safe in our community, though we will continue to have an enhanced police presence throughout the city and on the Brown campus. Two students were killed in Saturday's attack, nine others were injured. One student remains in critical condition. Seven are listed as critical but stable, and another has been released from the hospital. And Joe, this generational crisis, this is what our kids have grown up in school shootings. There's a survivor here that survived another school shooting. It is now a reality that now for decades, this country has not been able to confront. It is a generational crisis. And unfortunately, those who have felt it the most are members of this

generation that were on the campus of Brown when this happened. But they've grown up. with lockdown drills all too often and and just a just an unspeakable tragedy the one of the victims has been identified a young woman who again young woman who who went to school was beloved by people on campus and uh somebody said just brought brought light about her wherever she went. Unfortunately, her life and another cut short and so many other people who were just studying for finals in a room with bullets spraying the room and the hallway outside. Let's bring in right now, senior national security reporter for MS now, David Roe. David, you obviously know the Brown community very well. Tell me what you've learned this weekend.

Yes. I'm a proud graduate of Brown. And since I graduated, I taught two classes there. I was at reunion there last May. And so I have a bias. But I was so struck, Mika mentioned the first young woman, Mia Tretta. She was a Brown student who spoke on Saturday night. I was on set here then. And she described her experience in high school where a stranger walked into her high school in California, shot her in the stomach, and then shot dead one of her closest friends. And she was just amazing. Zoe Weissman, another Brown student who spoke of. She survived the Parkland shooting in Florida. So it's stunning that this person hasn't been found. It's a huge blow to the Brown community. But I just want to say about Brown, it's a very special place because many of the graduates go on to sort of, they want to live a life of service that's part of the school's mission.

And so many people go into law or medicine or politics or, frankly, journalism. So I just want to say as a Brown graduate, and I've heard this from other graduates we've been all been talking this weekend, Brown will fight back. Brown will try to address this political problem, this public health problem. That's what we do as a community. So it's an amazing and horrible weekend, but an amazing place, and it will recover and it will try to solve this epidemic we have in this country. We'll be waiting to hear more from authorities as a suspect is still at large at this point, which I think is surprising, given that this shooting was on campus, which is a pretty lockdown.

Yeah. And there's been a lot of misinformation about this incident. Even in the first hours, we heard from President Trump posted on social media that a person had been arrested. That was not the case. And now we had a person of interest who was never identified as a suspect, but now been let go. But I will certainly just add to this, and we were certainly hoping for updates to investigation soon. And I'm a little old out of this generation.

I was in college when Columbine happened. But certainly my children, you know, who have to take shelter-in-place drills. They're in high school and middle school now. This is such a sad part of the American story now. This is part of your education as a student in the United States, whether it's in middle school or high school in college, one of the best universities in the country and in the world, the unrelenting fear created by weapons, by guns. And we're the only country that has this as a consistent part of a young person. Yeah.

And Joe, I'll tell you, for our kids, for my kids, for sure, the concept of school shootings, one of the reasons why young people don't like to watch the news because it's too scary. And on top of it, school shootings have become a way of life for them. It's a reality. Like they have to live with, they go to school every day with, in the back of their minds, the thought that this could happen. and you even heard the mayor, Providence, I believe, who was speaking over the week and thinking, we haven't been touched by this.

We were lucky, and now we're one of so many. Unfortunately, this happens in America all too often. We're, of course, in a minute going to be talking about terrible shooting in Australia. Shootings do happen across the globe. They happen far more randomly than they happen here, where we have so many mass shootings, and it has become a part of our children's lives. And you talk to younger people who just, again, talk about growing up where they have to do these drills. Like we used to duck under desks when we were young because the fear was that the Soviet Union was going to drop, you know, a nuclear bomb on us.

Now, we have to prepare for deranged 18, 19-year-olds being able to walk into a gun shop and buy an AR-15. And the carnage that has been unleashed on America through the years, starting really with Columbine, and continues even today, this is a generation that I don't think is going to stand for it as we move forward. There are sensible gun safety laws that can be put in place that still allows all of us to keep and bear arms in a responsible way. So our prayers are certainly with those families who lost children this weekend. I can't even begin to imagine the pain that they're experiencing also for all those that have been wounded. and for the entire community there. It's just sad and it's unspeakable. And speaking of unspeakable,

the headline of the New York Times this morning is all too familiar. Sydney Carnage targets Jews. Anti-Semitism, as we've been saying on this show for far too long, it continues to be a scourge. and it continues to be a scourge, not just in America, not just in the Middle East, but unfortunately, Mika, as this weekend showed, all across the world. All right, we turned in the news in Australia now, at least 15 people are dead,

including a child and more than 40 others injured after two gunmen opened fire during a Hanukkah celebration on Sydney's famed Bondi Beach late yesterday. It is the deadliest shooting in Australia in nearly 30 years. Officials are calling it a terrorist attack with Australia's prime minister saying the target was Jewish people. This was an attack deliberately targeted at the Jewish community on the first day of Hanukkah, which of course should be a joyous celebration. And the Jewish community are hurting today. today all Australians wrap our arms around them and say we stand with you we will do whatever

is necessary to stamp out anti-Semitism it is a scourge and we will eradicate it together the victims range in age from 10 to 87 and include a rabbi a holocaust survivor an Israeli citizen and a French citizen as of this morning 27 people remain hospitalized including at least a dozen in critical condition. Police identified the two shooting suspects as a father and son, ages 50 and 24. Authorities fatally shot, the 50-year-old at the scene. They say the 24-year-old suffered critical injuries and is currently in the hospital. This incredible video shows a bystander, identified by relatives as Ahmed al-Amed jumping on one of the gunmen during the the rampage and disarming him. Authorities later praised his actions, calling him a hero. Police say the 24-year-old suspect was known to security services and was investigated for six months back in 2019. But officials say there was no prior indication of a planned attack. Six guns were recovered from a property linked to the older shooter and to improvised explosive devices

were found and rendered safe. So, Joe, this was horrific, absolutely horrific. But that man who disarmed one of the gunmen might have saved a lot more lives. He may have. And again, as we were told here, as you told us, this is the worst attack in Australia in 30 years. Much like we saw an attack in New Zealand.

several years ago that seemed to be a one-off. But unfortunately, the spread of anti-Semitism is going global in ways that it hadn't before. And it has been a scourge for thousands and thousands of years. But social media, David French, unfortunately, is linking people up. And we saw it in the New Zealand shooting several years ago. We don't know about this one. But again, And unfortunately, this headline, Sydney Carnage targets Jews on Hanukkah, terror attack, the Wall Street Journal rights in Australia targets Jews. David, we've seen it time and time again. And unfortunately, it's widespread.

I mean, the Republican Party right now is going through a political war between those who are accusing the other side of being anti-Semites and a lot going back and forth. and certainly we saw it during the demonstrations a few years ago. The far left also just has far too many people who are anti-Semitic. And so this is one of those things. People don't like say both sides. Yeah, there's anti-Semitism on both the far right and the far left. And unfortunately, as we see, not only in the United States, not only in Europe, but even Australia. Yeah, that's absolutely right. And, you know, one thing that's really important to point out, as you've been pointing out, is that ever since October 7th and often way too much before October 7th, what you've seen are people, they're not targeting the Israeli government.

This is not about attacking the IDF. This is about attacking Jews wherever they are in the world. We have seen this. We have seen this targeting of Jews in America, targeting of Jews in Australia, targeting of Jews in France, in Britain, in country after country after country. It's not about, they're not going after the Israeli government. They're going after Jewish people who are living their daily lives. And that is, and Joe, as you said, you're seeing it on the far right and you're seeing it on the far left. I mean, there's this concept called horseshoe theory.

When the two sides get more and more extreme, they get closer together. And I'm telling you, it's it is the responsibility of the big American middle, that great global center to stand up to assert itself and to say this is absolute. evil. Yeah. Let's go live to Bondi Beach in Sydney where Sky News correspondent Nicole Johnston is standing by with the latest. Nicole, what more can you tell us? Well, it's been a very solemn day here at Bondi Beach, as you can imagine. You can see some of the crowd behind me all day. Hundreds of people have been coming to the pavilion at Bondi. They've been bringing flowers, paying their respects and trying to comfort each other in a time of great national shock. This is the last thing that anybody would ever expect to happen in Australia, a country that is normally quite

cohesive and peaceful. Obviously, today, most of the focus has been on the police investigation, on the 50-year-old man and his 24-year-old son. All sorts of questions are being raised. For example, how did they manage to get their hands on such a large cache of weapons, long rifles and firearms? The elder man had gun registration license. He had six weapons that he was legally allowed to own. This is highly unusual in Australia because this country has very strict gun ownership rules. Now, the government is trying to come up with some kind of response. They've said that they're considering making these gun ownership rules even stricter.

At the same time, we're getting increasing rhetoric about this concern of rising anti-Semitism in the country. Ever since the war started between Israel and Hamas, there have been attacks on Jewish sites in Australia, on synagogues, on an Israeli restaurant here, and on a Jewish school. So there is concern about that. But the various Muslim Christian and Jewish communities in Australia are trying to come together. There have been interfaith meetings. There'll be more held this week. And they're saying to people that they need to stay united and not allow this attack to divide the country even further. And that's why we are seeing people come down here to try and support one another.

But actually, just in the last hour, we had the country's home affairs. minister down here. And as he was leaving, there was a lot of abuse hurled at him. People criticizing him on issues of immigration. So just as we see in Europe and the United States, there is division within Australia as well. Sky News correspondent Nicole Johnston, live from Sydney, Australia. Thank you very much for your reporting this morning. And David wrote, I wanted to go back to this video of this man who authorities in Australia are calling a hero for disarming one of the gunmen. It's a pretty incredible scene where he is able to grab this huge lung gun and yank it away from him, possibly saving a lot more lives. You have some more to say about what we don't see in that

video? Yes. And I just want to say the level of anti-Semitism just worldwide is astonishing and unacceptable. So this one man, Ahmed, as we can see, he rushes, towards, it's the younger son, wrestles the gun away from him, as you're seeing right now on your screen. He has a chance to shoot him, but he doesn't. And he actually puts the gun down after that. He might have feared that the law enforcement would think he was a gunman. And the son then goes over to the father, picks up another weapon and shoots Ahmed al-Oachmed, the hero here. He wounds him in the shoulder and the leg. And so Ahmed al-Akman is now in a hospital. He's recovering his relatives have talked to the news agencies about this, but amazing heroism in a time

of sort of incredible darkness. And again, whether it's in the United States, whether it's in Australia, just unacceptable and horrific levels of anti-Semitism worldwide. An extraordinary moment of darkness. And Jewish people here in New York City, in the United States around the world, fearful to go about their daily lives. And to happen on the first night of Hanukkah there in Australia, you know, certainly we know there's been increased security presence at synagogues and the like, although no belief, no credible belief that anything untoward is planned here, but the sense of awareness. So I think it's in this moment of darkness, an unrelenting weekend of terrible news. We should certainly highlight

the heroism of this man who came to those. He did, he did, he did not know, risked his own life, got wounded, but saved countless others. So much quick thinking beyond just jumping him and getting the firearm away from him, but then thinking to put it down, because he'll be considered the gunman and then ending up getting shot. And then this weekend began with three Americans dying in Syria in an ISIS attack. Two service members and a U.S. citizen who was a translator. So huge sacrifice in so many places. We're still going to get to that. MS now senior national security reporter David

wrote, thank you very much for coming on this morning and still ahead this morning. President Trump is vowing to retaliate after two U.S. service members and an American civilian were killed in an ISIS ambush in Syria. What we're learning about that attack. Plus, Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelensky, is offering to drop one of his key demands in an effort to end the war with Russia. We'll have the latest on those peace talks. And as we go to break, a quick look at the Travelers Forecast this morning from Ackyweather's

Bernie Rayno. Bernie, how's it looking? It is the coldest day of the season across the northeast. your act of weather exclusive forecast, 27 in Boston, 30 in New York City, gusty winds as well. We'll have some sunshine early in Chicago. It is sunny across the southeast and south-century. United States, it's dry, although there can be a shower in Miami.

Your acuether travel forecasts, other than the wind at Boston and New York City, there shouldn't be many delays. To help you make the best decisions and be more into know, make sure to download the acuether app today. And the laugh at myself, why the tears are old to tell? Because it's the world I know. Oh, it's the world I know. Just about half past the hour, President Trump is warning a very serious retaliation.

After an attack in Syria killed two U.S. service members and one civilian interpret. The Pentagon says the ambush was carried out by a lone ISIS gunman near Palmyra during counterterrorism operations. Three additional U.S. troops were wounded and are recovering. The gunman was killed at the scene. Trump said Syria's president was devastated by the attack and emphasized that Syrian forces are fighting alongside U.S. troops. The U.S. military has roughly 2,000 troops in Syria supporting efforts to prevent and ISIS resurgence, the incident, remains under investigation. Let's bring in President Emeritus on the Council on Foreign Relations,

Richard Haas, and beat on this, if you could, just your thoughts. And also, I think you have a lot to say about what's happening in Australia right now. This is, you know, people aren't aware that we still have. I think a number might be closer to 1,000. We have this continuing U.S. presence in places like Syria. It's part of a counterterrorism mission. but it's really hard to do. And the kind of thing that just happened the other day,

you're not presented, if you will, with traditional targets. So when the president talks about the United States is going to retaliate, you almost want to say, against them, against what? This is a quote-unquote, lone government. There could be another one tomorrow. The Syrian government is not in control of all of the territory. These are, you know, the directions in Syria, Mika, might be in the right direction, the arrow,

but it has a lot of the qualities of a failed state. You do not have central governments that control all their real estate. You still have terrorist groups that have set up shop. So this kind of thing is now, it's structural there. It's endemic. There's no decisive permanent victory. It's part of what's part of what comes with being in there. And the question we have to ask, are the gains we're making against terrorism worth these kinds of costs?

So, Richard, we want in a moment turn to some pretty significant elements that about the Ukraine, potential Ukraine, Russia talks. But before that, as Mika said, you had some thoughts, but what we saw in Australia, I know you even have something of a personal connection to that community. A family connection. I spend time at Bondi Beach. It's a tiny Jewish community there. We're talking about a country of what, 27, 28, 29 million people. The Jewish community is about 100,000.

Almost all either came after World War II from Europe or they came more recently from South Africa. They are very much kept, they keep to themselves to some extent, and they feel they are in an unfriendly environment. The lack of sympathy for concerns about anti-Semitism, about Israel, a real tilt towards the Palestinians, I'm not connecting this to that, but just saying a real tilt during the Gaza struggle. But they feel besieged. And I think the real question is whether the government now really steps up. There's also a real law enforcement issue.

I don't know if you saw the pictures of Australian police reaction and so forth. It was not reassuring. The police, at least the footage I saw, I don't know how characteristic it is. You had police officers hiding and sheltering, why the two guys were still out there with guns. So one gets the sense that Australia needs a real rethink. Yeah. First about anti-Semitism, second of all about the role of guns and then also about the role of the police. How prepared you.

The idea that you can have such a large gathering of Jews in a public place in this day and age without an armed presence, without a security presence, whether police or more, that just seems to me naive for the day and age. Joe. Well, I mean, it's certainly naive in the United States, Richard, but it speaks to the fact that this was the worst shooting in Australia in 30 years. They already have, for the most part, reasonable rational gun safety laws that stop this sort of killing. So the fact that it happens, that's what they're going to have to reexamine. And of course, you are right about police officers. But if you're, this is not something they have to deal with day in and day out, like U.S. police officers have to deal with the fact that, you know, what do we average? A mass shooting every day, every other day, every week. It's, you know, some years, it seems like there's as many mass shootings in a year as there are days in a year. It's really gotten out of control. Absolutely. And you just have to almost, Joe, go back to basics, any place, in this case,

where Jews gather, whether it's in synagogues, and here we are in the second day of the holiday of Hanukkah, or just something like this. I went to a gathering over the summer. It was a group celebrating Jewish food and culture. And you had quite a big security presence there. And I think it was on Governor's Island here in New York City. It's just I don't think you can do these things now,

whether it's left-wing kind of because of Israel or Gaza or right-wing, What you're seeing is a real resurgence of old-fashioned, pure, not Israel-focused anti-semit, but anti-Jew anti-Semitism, if you will. Real fundamental old-fashioned stuff. I just think that people need to be offered protection. You can't be unsafe. You can't feel unsafe and go about your life. We will return to this.

We've got a lot of moving parts this morning. There's also a possible deal to end the war between Russia and Ukraine. Ukrainian president, Vladimir Zelensky, says his country is willing to abandon its bid to join NATO in exchange for Western security guarantees. It's a major shift for Zelensky, who wants the guarantees from the United States, Europe, Canada, and Japan to mirror NATO's Article 5 protections. He also insisted Ukraine will not give up any territory. This comes as President Trump's special envoy. Steve Whitkoff and son-in-law, Jared Kushner, are in Berlin for ongoing peace talks. And Joe, there's a lot of back and forth about what exactly Ukraine can put up with to bring this war to a close. Right, but it seems to me, Jonathan Lemire, my reporting this weekend and I'm curious about your reporting shows that the word

now is containment, that both the United States and Europe understands that whatever deal comes out of this, there has to be an Article 5 type guarantee that going back to what the United States did, you know, George Kennan and Harry Truman, the Truman Doctrine, talking about containment. You have Vladimir Putin who said he was going to go in the March in 2006. he went into Georgia, and of course, the United States did nothing about it. Went into Ukraine in 2014, did nothing about it, took Crimea, the West did nothing about it. Then the war began. We started to push back. But as far as Ukraine is concerned, as far as the United States, the negotiators, and Europe are concerned,

whatever the deal is, while Ukraine may not be in NATO, there have to be Article 5, like guarantees and most likely approved by the United States Senate. So it is a treaty. And Vladimir Putin understands if he goes into Ukraine, it would be like, you know, the North Koreans going into South Korea or during the Cold War, the East Germans going into West Germany, that would would strike a tripwire that would bring the United States into a war. Yeah, that's one of the real outstanding questions in this process, Joe. What are those security guarantees actually going to be? Zelensky, saying that he understands that Ukraine won't be part of NATO.

You know, not a real surprise. I mean, that's a non-starter for Russia, to be sure. But I think there was certainly suggestions that that was not something that was going to be in the cards that that was going to happen. The EU membership, perhaps more likely a little bit further down the, the road here, but there are still two, of course, outstanding issues that have to be resolved here. First of all, Putin has shown no signs that he's going to take any sort of deal right now. They're still being aggressive. They're still slowly moving towards, you know,

making some progress on the front. But for Ukraine, Richard Haas, we know it's two things. It's territory. And certainly the U.S. has assessed that the Biden administration, as well as Trump administration, has assessed that Ukraine will probably have to give up some land, at least so far, as Zelensky is saying, no, we'll come to that. But there are a lot of the U. are real questions. I mean, the White House is, it depends on the day, really, what sort of security guarantees they're willing to offer Ukraine. Frankly, it depends on which negotiators talking as to what security guarantees they're willing to offer. But what is clear, Kiv doesn't really trust it. They don't really think that they could believe this administration at all will come

to their defense in a deal. For good reason. We had the 1994 set of guarantees to Ukraine. Those weren't worth the paper they were written on. We've cut off arms at various point. We're not talking about putting U.S. troops, unlike we have in NATO, unlike we have on the 38th parallel in Korea. So this would be a security guarantee without presence. And if you're sitting in Ukraine again, you go, well, what's this really doing? In two or three days, Russia could create a fait accompli there. I don't see people talking about guarantees to provide Ukraine's with arms and intelligence and economic help. What Ukraine really wants is self-reliance. That's what it's learned. So what's missing is a big piece of it. So it's the territorial question.

And it's the question of what we're prepared to do so Ukraine can hold its own. Security guarantees are normally kind of the last five or ten percent. If I were in Ukraine, I'd be concerned about having them be 50 percent or 100 percent of my security, particularly given the history. Also one other thing, we shouldn't care to ourselves. Russia is not only at the moment, they're probably not inclined to accept this, Jonathan. I don't think Russia's done yet. I don't know if you saw over the last few days, you have the foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, talking to the Finnish foreign minister, and basically telling it's time for Finland and Sweden to basically go back to where they were before they got into NATO. Russia gets up every morning and basically says, how do we change the map of Europe in our favor? This is not a status quo country by any stretch of the imagination. So we have really got to be careful in how we handle Ukraine.

It's not a status quo country. It's also not as strong as I'd like you to think. Churchill's old saying Russia is never as strong or as weak as we think they are. That probably holds true here as well. But with oil down to about $60 per barrel, they're not really in a strong position, not in the position they once were. So we'll see what happens there. But, yeah, arms, intel, rebuilding Ukraine from unfrozen Russian assets. That all may be part of a negotiated deal. We will see what happens there. David French, I wanted to talk to you about, I mean, you wrote it just incredible column.

It's been one of my pet peeves, not just during this administration or the last, but for the past 10, 15 years where whoever's, in the White House. The other side says the United States is in a death spiral and we will never I said it during the first Trump administration despite the fact I had a lot of issues with his policies. I said it in the Biden administration and I'm saying it now. This so-called death spiral that people say that we're always in and now you have the right saying, you know, oh, David French is weak. He's because he doesn't think we're in a death spiral. it's the biggest lie if you just look at facts.

And I understand a lot of people don't like looking at facts. But as you point out, today, Americans live longer. They've got higher wages. They live in bigger homes. They have more civil liberties than they've ever had. Violent crime for all the talk about crime for the most part is 50-year lows. Yeah, you, whoever's talking about how violent cities are, they were not around in the 1970s and the 1980s. I read a statistic, and you talked about it, divorce is way down from its high in the 1980s, abortion way down.

You look globally, global poverty at an all-time low on one thing after another, if you just look objectively, if you just look objectively, and not whether there's a draft. drag queen reading at a public library. If you look objectively at how Americans are doing, not just materialistically, but in so many other measurements, health, wealth, well-being, far from a death spiral for the past 10, 15 years, we've been doing better than ever before. Yeah, you know, one of the reasons why I wrote the column is there's been a lot of attention to why are so many Gen Z folks so radicalized and why are they so angry to the point where Gen Z is willing to put up with political violence to degree that no other American generation is? And when I was looking at it, I was realizing that for years and years and years,

my generation, for example, has been catastrophizing politics. Everything is going to be the worst. Every election is going to be the most consequential. People have painted an idealized vision of the past, that there was this golden era, mythical golden era that we have lost forever. And so what we've done is I think that we've radicalized in many ways. People have radicalized their own kids through their own obsessions with political partisanship in the culture war. And I feel like it's very, very important to provide context, especially for younger Americans, that these are not the worst times to be alive, that we have not lost some sort of mythical golden past that will never recover.

A bit of perspective, a bit of proper perspective, hopefully can bring the temperature of our politics down. The thing is, time and time again, you've had people on the far right, the far left, in this country and other countries, when they've wanted to seize power, what have they done? They've talked about reclaiming a glorious past.

A glorious past that never was. They will show a picture of an idealized family sitting on a finch post from the 1950s. People who lived in the 1950s wouldn't even recognize that. And you look at the fact that we carry around objects that have more processing power than what would take up 30 computers that would take up 30 city blocks in Manhattan, back in the 1950s, if even that, or our health care advances, again, we understand, I mean, we talk about it every day. Health care costs too much. Housing costs too much. Younger Americans are having trouble, getting jobs are having, we understand all of that. We're just talking relative to the 1950s or 60s. There is no glorious age that somehow they were

richer, better, healthier than we are right now. And we have to figure out how to work together, Republicans and Democrats alike, to move forward. Well, you know, look, and Joe, you're right that we have made a lot of progress, but there's a lot of problems that we also have. But I will tell you, when you catastrophize everything, when you say this is an emergency, we're in a death spiral, it's a crisis, you don't, you breathe despair in people. You breathe extremism in people. However, when you see things in proper perspective that we have problems, but there are problems we can deal with, that we can manage, you breed something else like responsible citizens, determination. And what we're doing too much with, I think,

especially younger Americans, is we're indoctrinating them into despair in the way that they've seen us, you know, you're showing your phone, the way that they have seen us as adults being unable to handle what we see on social media, being emotionally unhinged too often by what we see on that phone. And so we have cultivated in so many a younger Americans, the very sense that we look at now and say, why do you think like that? Well, one of the reasons why they think like that

is they've been taught to, and it's very sad. Really good insight there. Opinion columnist, David French. Thank you very much. His latest piece for The New York Times, available to read online right now. And Richard Haas, thank you as well for coming in on this very difficult morning. Good to have you. Coming up, we're going to take a much-needed break from the heavy news of the day. Pablo Tori is here to break down yesterday's action from around the

NFL. Morning Joe is back in just a minute. Well protected, and there's Nico Collins, and Nico Collins will plied into the end zone. An opening drive, Texan touchdown. From the 22 on first down, Williams on the roll, directing traffic to the end zone. He throws in it's DJ Moore. Lawrence is in trouble, trying to get away. Flags come flying. Lawrence can run for a little bit.

Lawrence can run for a score. first down at 20 got him there's McLaurant inside the 10 stays on his feet into the end zone for a commander's touchdown Ella steps up he's got room in front of him pulls the trigger end zone touchdown Hertz delivers brown touchdown on a second and 15 nix to the end zone Franklin has it touchdown broncos burrow is not shy to throw it to anybody who is in one-on-one situation burrow again kind of stumbles and he's intercepted picked off by van noy then the handoff it's gilman and gilman is going to score that we're now going to float one far corn brought in and caught for the touchdown those are some of the biggest T-Ds from across

NFL yesterday, including the L.A. Rams, who clinched a playoff berth with a 41 to 34 went over the lines. They are so good. As did the Broncos, who took control of the top seat of the AFC with their 11th consecutive victory, a 34 to 26 win over the Packers. Meanwhile, in Massachusetts, Patriots win streak was stopped at 10 games, an incredible match between the Buffalo Bills and the New England Patriots. It stopped New England from clinching the AFC East for now. And in Kansas City, the team that Pablo picked to win the Super Bowl for the first 10 weeks of the season, we'll see if he still is predicting that. The pursuit is done for the Chiefs.

The season's over for the quarterback Patrick Mahomes who suffered torn ACL in the closing minutes of yesterday. 1613 loss to the Chargers. The Chiefs are going to miss the playoffs for the first time since 2014 unless Pablo can figure out some formula to get them there. He's probably going to try today. Let's bring in MS now contributor and host of Pablo Tori finds out Pablo Tori. Pablo, so the Chiefs, are they still your number one team? Well, you know, I just wanted to address America honestly. I don't think it's going to happen this.

I don't think it's going to happen this year, Joe. I've been running some numbers. Yeah. Look, the story of the Chiefs, beyond the ACL injury to Mahomes, which is a problem, but medical science is such that that's not the lead, right? That's not the lead of this story. The lead of this story is Patrick Mahomes before that had the worst season of his career with some of the, I mean, literally the worst game of his career, not a week and a half ago.

And Travis Kelsey also. Very, right. Very good. So you're saying there's not a chance. So we could talk about the chiefs. We could talk about. I see. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

We could talk about the Chiefs. We could talk about incredible game. And I know Mr. Lemire probably doesn't want to talk about the Bills in New England, but I think we found a new rivalry that it's going to be incredible rivalry. But let's talk about what yesterday really was. Yeah. Yesterday, you want to tell Pablo Mika what yesterday was all about NFL? Yes.

It's all about the dad bod. We come. Phillips Rivers. We're talking about Philip Rivers. Yeah, we're talking to Philip Rivers. Literally true. It's so amazing that I had several people I was talking to throughout the day. They may have had their YouTube four screen, YouTube TV four screen.

Everybody was watching this game. Everybody. And what an incredible story, Pablo. Take us through it. So for those not familiar, Philip Rivers was coaching high school football as of like a week ago. He is, of course, the oldest man in the NFL. Now, when people saw that he was being signed, a question I heard was, is he even insurable? Is this being that legally they're allowed to do?

Is this safe? And the NFL, which is horrific at scouting quarterbacks, the cult specifically, they're a plausible, real playoff team because Daniel Jones got hurt and now they got to figure out what to do. They said, as opposed to rolling the dice with a young person, let's get a dude who's almost 50, who has literal. grandchildren off of the street and see if his brain can pilot an NFL offense without him being catastrophically hurt. And what we saw was glimmers of a great sports movie as well as reminders of the frailty of the human meat sack, of our own bodies, the ways in which we can't quite get there. But it was incredible as an experiment. I've never seen something quite like that before. Yeah, no doubt about it. And like a movie, how does it, how does it begin?

he drops back for a pass, trips, and falls down. I mean, that is the opening scene of the movie. But then he comes through and, you know, does a really good job. It almost beats one of the best teams in football. Let's go. Speaking of the best teams in football, Lemire and I were up late last night. Here are the computer rankings.

I'm wondering if you're going to try to put the cheats in the top five. Let's turn, oh, there we go. There we go. Don't like that sound. City blocks. Lost power last night. Number one, the Rams. Number two, the Broncos.

Those three the builds, four the Patriots, and five, the Seahawks. Lamar, I'll let you take it from here. Yeah, I mean, look, I have been saying on this show for a month now, that this season was setting up for Josh Allen to make a run. To remind people that he is the best player in football, we saw that yesterday. Look, the Patriots have been terrific. I'm delighted by the Patriots. They're a year ahead of schedule.

And yesterday, Drake May, who I hope someday will be Josh Allen, but he's not quite there yet. And he was not quite up to the moment yesterday. The Patriots defense, which had been good all year, just got smoked in the second half. This is a great game. This was a great game. The Patriots are far from done. They've still got a chance, good chance to win the division.

But they are, you know, Pablo. In a wide open year, they've still got a shot. But it's felt to me there's still a beat below the bills. The Rams we already talked about. They look like the class D.F.C. right now. Although they have a giant game against Seahawks on Thursday. Let's take one extra second on the Broncos, who have a huge win.

They've beat Green Bay. Bonnics, man. Ben. Bo Nicks good. Michael Parsons has hurt really bad for Green Bay. And now it looks like the road to the Super Bowl and the AFC is going to go through Denver. That's a tough place to play. The AFC is stacked. I mean, unfortunately, the human and the computer, they do converge here. My rankings, by the way, bills, Rams, Broncos, Pat, Seahawks in some order. Yeah.

But the AFC, I mean, the Bills, Broncos, and Pat's, that's the cream of the league right now. And I know what Lemire is doing. He is lowering expectations for the Patriots. I texted him at halftime saying, I'm not going to jinx this. And here's, by the way, just for the record, I increasingly, this is how it looks now to be me. The Patriots should be there. They should be in the AFC conference, I mean, in the AFC title game conference championship. But the Broncos with Bo Nix, shockingly good offensively.

The bills, as described, and the Patriots, you know, close, despite my best efforts. Thank you, Pablo. It's always good to see you anyway.