Morning Joe - 'She couldn’t get the revenge he craved': Trump fires Bondi as attorney general

Episode Date: April 3, 2026

'She couldn’t get the revenge he craved': Trump fires Bondi as attorney general To listen to this show and other MS podcasts without ads, sign up for MS NOW Premium on Apple Podcasts. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

A massive crowd turned out, just like in the old days, to witness the first manned moon mission since 1972 at Cape Canaveral. One space fan, I believe, captured the true spirit of the moment. Why do you want to be here? Why do you love space? Why do you love being a part of history? We're going back to the moon. That's right. That's the spirit, kid. Love it. Good morning. Welcome to morning. Joe. It is Friday, April 3rd. Good Friday. And with us this morning. senior writer at the Dispatch columnist of Bloomberg opinion, David Drucker, Politics Bureau Chief and Senior Political columnist at Politico, Jonathan Martin, and Presidential Historian and Pulitzer Prize-winning author John Meacham. A great group assembled with a busy morning

as Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche is now serving as acting Attorney General after the president yesterday fired Pam Bondi, her removal as the country's top prosecutor comes after criticism of her leadership at the Justice Department and its handling in particular of the Epstein files. The Wall Street Journal reports the president fired Bondi Wednesday morning while the two were in the presidential limousine on the way to the Supreme Court. Bondi told an associate Trump said to her, quote, I think it's time. She reportedly asked if she could keep her job until the summer, but the president declined. Trump had already decided earlier in the week that he would replace her.

The journal first reported in January the president had been increasingly unhappy with Bondi for failing to successfully prosecute his perceived political enemies and over her handling of the Epstein Files release. Bondi expected to officially leave the Justice Department in about a month, according to the journal. So Jonathan Martin, this had been sort of whispered for several weeks now. President Trump didn't think that Pam Bondi had gone far enough in effectively being his right arm at the Justice Department going after perceived political enemies. And when she did, they failed in those attempts. And also, it's interesting when he talks about her being fired over the release of

the Epstein files, perhaps he's upset that he didn't protect, she didn't protect him well enough, the fact that his name is all over those files. So how in the end did this come to be? I think he just nailed it. I mean, I think it's the combination of the Epstein files and the fact that it was sort of seen as in his eyes, something that was damaging to him that was dragging out for a period of months that was creating a constant relentless storm that wasn't going away, like basically, unlike any other story that he's faced since he came back to the presidency.

And I think the other issue was very straightforward. His view of DOJ is that it is a political arm for him to exact revenge on his political foes. It's not more complicated than that. And she couldn't secure indictments on Tish James, on James Comey, and on Adam Schiff. And those were sort of the three folks he was really eager to go after and get revenge on. And she couldn't deliver indictments. Now, we know why she couldn't deliver indictments because grand juries couldn't get it done because there was no obvious charges against any of those three individuals to deliver. But that's really it. The Epstein thing was a mess, and she couldn't get the revenge that he craved.

Willie, the larger context is he's got two cabinet secretaries here at DHS and DOJ, two of the most significant post in the federal government. And neither appointee lasted 14 months. So for all this talk about, well, Trump, too, doesn't want turnover. He doesn't want a lot sort of bad process stories. He just pushed out two of his top captain officials at the less than 14 months in office. And now Todd Blanche, actually his personal attorney is the acting attorney general. If Pam Bondi didn't go far enough, despite her fealty to Donald Trump, I guess he hopes his personal lawyer will.

The Wall Street Journal editorial boards writing this morning a new piece titled, Pam Bondi gets trumped as Attorney General. The journal writes this. Is there a worse job in Washington, D.C. than Attorney General under President Trump? We can't think of many. Ms. Bondi won't go down as a great AG, but we will. wonder if anyone could succeed given Mr. Trump's expectations for the job. The president wants someone who will do his bidding, which is proper on policy issues. The problem is he also wants

an AG who will indict his political enemies and stretch the limits of the law to serve his political goals. This is a losing proposition. Ms. Bondi's great fault is that she was never good at saying no. A good AG owes the president his best independent legal advice, even if it's something the boss doesn't want to hear. The president's use of lawfare to repay his enemies will backfire on him as it did on Democrats in 2024. He needs an AG willing to tell him when his demands cross a legal line. And Joe, it's not clear that Todd Blanche or some of the other names that we're talking about or hearing could be the next attorney general will do that whatsoever in terms of pushing back against Donald Trump. But again, Pam Bondi did her best to be the right arm of Donald

Trump at the Justice Department. We remember the hearing that was supposed to be over the Epstein files where she started talking about the Dow Jones crossing 50, that she had APO research on every Democrat asking a question, fumbled the Epstein files from the beginning. But in the end, she wasn't able to go as far on personal matters for Donald Trump as he wanted her to. Right. And we remember it was maybe back in September of last year where the president frantically sent a direct message. What he thought was in the president. the right message on truth, social, the Pambandi, when in fact, it was read by the entire world where he said, quick, you know, hurry up, time's running out, and then suggested she start

prosecuting his political enemies. John Meacham, that's a, that would have been a great time for her to actually take a stand against Donald Trump. I have, obviously, I've known him for a long time and I've explained to House speakers. I've explained the incoming agency heads. I've explained to anybody who asks me. Listen, being a sycophant doesn't work. At the end, if you're a sycophant, you end up just like every other sycophant that's come in and going out of that office. You get fired, you get humiliated, you get thrown under the bus. At some point, Maybe somebody will try standing up to him and getting fired for that reason. But it seems to me, John, and this is obvious, but what America needs, what this constitutional

republic needs, and in fact, what the president needs is somebody who will tell him the truth. Much better to be fired for being a truth teller than being fired by being a sycophant who, can't prosecute political enemies because the court's just not going to allow her or any other attorney general to do that. God willing, and judges and grand juries willing, I think this is a somewhat complicated moment, right? Because politics, as everybody here knows, as well or better than I do, is a human matter of incentive, right? And so what is the incentive? for an attorney general under President Trump. The incentive is you, as it seems to be with everyone there,

is that you're for really the first time in American history, and I say that advisedly, you're really working in a court, a King's court, more than an administration. So that's the first thing. You know, even, you know, Edmund Randolph and Thomas Jefferson and Alexander Hamilton, that was a different thing, right? that was a cabinet all the way through.

This is different. And so you have this attorney general who has been removed for, in a way, doing the right thing. So what's the lesson? The lesson is don't do the right thing if you want to keep your job in this particular cabinet. Now, I agree with you, Joe. I mean, there's just, this never ends well working for, for President Trump. And the way I would try to think of it, if I were in the arena, is, look, do you want to be Joe McCarthy or do you want to be Margaret Chase Smith? Do you want to be Elliott Richardson or do you want to be Robert Bork to go to the Saturday night massacre?

Take a stand because the stand you take that is in keeping with the law, in keeping with tradition, is going to stand you in better historical stead than following the whims of a given person. And I hope the successor takes that incentive as opposed to the let's please the king no matter what incentive. Well, yeah, and being a sick event, obviously has done none of these cabinet members who got fired and humiliated and kicked to the curb. It's done none of them any good. David Drucker, in Pam Bondi's case, she was, as the Washington Post said, she was a sycophant from day one, giving just over-the-top flowery praise of Donald Trump, that having that performance in the judiciary committee that was cringeworthy even for Republican members of the House and Senate. But you go through and, you know, yes, a lot of this had to do with Donald Trump, just based on what we've heard being angry. I suspect also coming after the Supreme Court hearing and just a spate of federal judges ruling against him, it seems like they're three, four, five a day, you know, stopping some of his zaniest ideas.

that certainly may have been one of the reasons for this timing, but Pam Bondi also did other things that, you know, offended the base. I've got the files on my desk. Then when the Epstein files are finally released, she doesn't release enough to please the MAGA base, and she releases too much for the Republican president, right? So she gets it both ways. And then finally, all of these lawfare episodes, just the most preposterous charges, so preposterous that you not only have courts stopping it, you have grand juries doing something.

Grand juries hardly ever do and refusing to indict. So, yeah, a lot of things were out of her hands and her control, but certainly she didn't make things easier on herself from day one. No, she didn't. And you know, you could see with all of these cabinet members, maybe not all of them, but most of them, right? There's the job they're trying to do day to day in their agencies. And then they're also trying to manage the president. They're trying to manage him internally. They're trying to manage him publicly.

We often talk about these hearings where cabinet officials like Bondi appeared, and it's an audience of one, right? It's all about managing the president and his ego and what he wants to hear. and that's where you get that sort of loony, you know, screed about the Dow. The Dow is above 50,000. I mean, that's great. I've got a 401K, but you're the Attorney General. I don't know what that has to do with your day-to-day job.

I think a couple things, Joe. First of all, if you talk to lawyers who have worked, the Department of Justice, they will tell you that that old saw about, you know, being able to indict a ham sandwich may apply to random counties and states does not apply in federal court. right so it's there is a much higher and more professional bar for indictments when you're going to court as a federal attorney and that's one of the things that was always going to trip up the DOJ under pan bondi and it will trip up if they insist unless they can pull some rabbits out of hats will trip up her successor and you know i think the other thing that we may want to explore here because of how central public relations are to the president and how he views the world, right?

Media coverage. Even though Pam Bondi, as all cabinet officials do, are either doing what they're told, as long as they, you know, unless they refuse, or they're doing what they think the principle wants them to do. I mean, this occurs even in normal cabinets. You go to work every day and you're thinking yourself, what does the boss want? What are the principles that he's set forward? So she's doing what she thinks he wants him to do, in addition to whatever it is he's asking her to do.

But the president does not like mockery. And Pam Bondi was considerably and repeatedly mocked. And I just have to wonder if he did not like the media coverage, because it made, in a sense, a laughing stock of the things that he wanted out of her and out of the department. And because media coverage is so central to how he views the world and how he feels about himself, that could have had something to do with his decision to replace her. Yeah, it's a very good point. Let's talk about some of those potential successors.

President Trump said to be considering a number of candidates to replace Pam Bondi. EPA head, Lee Zeldin being reported as a possible frontrunner for the nomination. He's a former congressman from New York and a close ally of the president. Four people familiar with the Mattertel, MS now, several other names have been floated. Yes, Janine Piro, pitching her. for the position. She's currently serving as U.S. attorney for the District of Columbia after a long stretch at Fox News. Another name in the running Republican Senator Eric Schmidt of Missouri. He previously served as Attorney General in his home state. And Alina Haba, the former personal lawyer

to President Trump, also been named as a possible successor last year. Remember a judge disqualified her as a U.S. attorney for New Jersey. Let's bring into the conversation. MS Now senior legal reporter, former litigator Lisa Rubin, and MS now Justice and Intelligence reporter, Ken Delanyan. Good morning to you both. Ken, first, just some of your reporting on how Pam Bondi lost her job. We've kind of detailed it, but as you've been saying in reporting over the last day or so, it wasn't Pam Bondi's unwillingness to run all the errands that Donald Trump asked her to run. It was a legal system that thwarted her efforts, and Donald Trump is hoping that someone else might have better luck in pursuing his personal goals at justice.

Yeah, that's absolutely right, Willie. Not to say that Pam Bondi and her deputy, Todd Blanche, didn't try at times to curb Donald Trump's worse impulses along the lines of lawfare, as Joe is saying, but she certainly tried to deliver on what he wanted and was unable to because, as you guys have laid out, federal judges in some cases stood in the way in the case of James Comey and Leticia James,

dismissing those cases because the U.S. attorney was improperly pointed. And at other times, grand jury stood in the way. And in addition of the cases you guys mentioned, let's not forget the six members of Congress that Janine Perro tried to indict in D.C. Because they instructed the members of the military that they weren't obligated to file, to follow illegal orders. The grand jury refused to indict those people. There are investigations running into John Brennan and James Clapper. And there's a U.S. Attorney in Miami investigating what they call the grand conspiracy theory, some notion. that government officials have been conspiring against Donald Trump since the Russia investigation

and that it went all the way through the Jack Smith investigations. So she certainly tried and was not able to deliver to the extent that Donald Trump wanted. And it's also true that her mishandling of the Epstein case paved the way for this because she lost support among the MAGA base and on Capitol Hill. I think David Drucker made an astute point that her public persona was not something that was pleasing to Donald Trump. Her performance on the hill and some of those hearings was shrill

and her performance at news conferences. She never seemed comfortable speaking to, for example, the DOJ press score that I'm a member of. She didn't do the kind of off-the-record interactions that you would expect of an attorney general. She just was not comfortable. She seemed insecure.

But you're right. I mean, the idea that some other figure of Janine Piro and Eric Schmidt, both of whom have been longtime prosecutors or Elise Eldon, who's never been a prosecutor, is going to somehow achieve a different result is a fantasy. But what they could do is things short of a grand jury and what the Justice Department is already doing, which is blanketing people with subpoenas, requiring them to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on legal fees to comply with those subpoenas on specious investigations

that have no basis in fact. That's been going on. likely to continue going on, whoever takes the next office. And last thing is, we should not let this, we should, we should reflect a little bit on Pam Bondi's legacy. As John Meacham said, no attorney general in history, certainly in modern history, but perhaps in history, has turned the Justice Department essentially into the president's private law firm the way Pam Bondi did. Critics say she's done incalculable damage to the Justice Department. She drove out by some counts thousands of career attorneys. She decimated the National Security Division. There are things that get less attention,

like, for example, the antitrust division right now is in turmoil, and antitrust cases are being decided on the basis of who is hiring the right politically connected lawyer who's getting paid $300,000 a month. So there's a lot of concern about that. She did away with the Foreign Influence Task Force, which is one of the first things she did. She stopped prosecuting companies under the foreign corrupt practices act. So the legacy is vast. The Justice Department is not the same place. It was when she stepped into it and took office. And we have three years left of the Trump administration where more kinds of things like this are going to be done at the DOJ. And she effectively cleaned house of anyone who had anything to do with a prosecution or an investigation into President

Trump. Lisa, we should note, though, that Pam Bondi still has a subpoena sitting on her her desk from the House Oversight Committee to testify about the Epstein files. The House Oversight Committee said yesterday, yeah, we still want her to come. That's in less than two weeks from now and sit and answer a lot of questions that she certainly did not answer in that big public hearing when she started talking about the Dow crossing $50,000. So how much of this was about the Epstein files, which is that slow, selective, heavily redacted release of the files that, frankly were foundational and are foundational to so many in the MAGA base. Well, let's go back to something that other folks have said this morning, Willie, if we can,

Pam Bondi sort of made a mockery of herself and in particular made a mockery of the Epstein Files Transparency Act process. But it was an own goal. And the reason it was an own goal is because Pam Bondi herself sort of worked up the MAGA base into a frenzy and a lather, starting last February when she said she had the client list on her desk ready to review. She then directed and undertook a massive internal review involving FBI agents working round the clock to review the Epstein files all through last spring. And it was only in May of last year that public reporting indicates that she and Todd Blanche went to the president and basically said, hey, boss, your name's all over this stuff.

And that's how we found ourselves with a memo unsigned by anyone in last July saying, look, we are not going to release anything more because we don't think there's anything else here on which we could predicate a responsible investigation. That obviously rang hollow with not only their base, but with people all over this country. One could argue that if Pam Bondi had not been so eager to take advantage of the conspiracy theories about the Epstein Files, she wouldn't have found herself in a position where she had to comply with a Congressional Act in 30 days' time, which of course we know she didn't do. It's unknown how much of this has to do with the Epstein Act, the Epstein Files Transparency Act

or the Epstein Files more generally, Willie, but it was not a showing of competence by her. And more importantly, it wasn't a showing of any empathy by her. You guys were playing some images a few moments ago while Ken was talking, and one of them was Pam Bondi looking in the other direction, while a favorite. of survivors is behind her raising their hand to indicate that they had never been communicated with by the Department of Justice. And Pam Bondi never could bring herself to turn around and look them in the eyes. In addition to however many memes we can make about what she said about the Dow that day, that to me is a searing image of Pam Bondi's tenure at the Department

of Justice because it's not only one of serious incompetence with respect to revealing victims' personal information. It's that refusal to even look at the survivors of Jeffrey Abstein-Glein-Maxwell and treat them like human beings, which is generally all any of them want. Their expectations are very low with respect to future prosecutions, for example. They just want an apology for how they've been treated not only historically by the Justice Department across administrations, but by this particular Justice Department, which again and again has compromised their safety and privacy. And that's now senior legal reporter Lisa Rubin and MS now Justice and the intelligence

reporter, Ken Delanian. Thank you both so much for being with us this morning. Greatly appreciate it. You know, Willie, we had said sometime back that the two defining, maybe it was after the Bondi hearing, that maybe two of the defining pictures of the first year of the Trump administration would be one, Pam Bondi refused. to turn around and even acknowledge the existence of survivors, of the most heinous things that Jeffrey Epstein and his cohorts did and committed on them.

That picture, as well as a picture of Christy Noam standing in front of men who were caged like animals with shaved heads and just in what looked like concentration camp. style prisons. And it's interesting that those are two pictures that will linger for years and years and years to come. That will be a large part of their legacies, but also a large part of this White House's legacy in the first year because those two pictures paint a thousand words on the Epstein files and also on this mass deportation. approach that has proven to be extraordinarily unpopular with the American people. Yeah, I'm so glad Lisa brought up that image. That was the right word,

was searing, an infamous moment where she could not, the Attorney General of the United States, she didn't even have to say anything, couldn't be bothered to just turn around and acknowledge the presence of women who say as teenage girls, they were raped on this island by rich and powerful men. It just added to the perception that this Justice Department was protecting rich and powerful men and not there to protect the victims. And you're right, the other thing they have in common is those two women no longer have their jobs. One, perhaps in Pambani, for not going far enough in protecting the president, and one in Christy Knoem for being a distraction and embarrassing the president and leading a policy that led in part to the death of two people to American citizens

in the streets of the United States. Still ahead on Morning Joe, the latest on the war in Iran, as the United States, Israel, and Tehran continue to trade strikes just this morning. Plus, we'll talk about President Trump's hold on the Republican Party ahead at the November midterms and the 2028 race for the White House. David Drucker, Jonathan Martin, both looking at that. And as we go to break, a quick look at the Travelers' Forecast this morning

from Accuweather's Bernie Rayno. Bernie, how's it looking out there? Willie Womera, on the move in the Northeast. your exclusive ACU weather forecast calling for a warmer afternoon. Boston, New York City, Philadelphia, some morning clouds, a little bit of drizzle, then clouds break. Watch for the strong thunderstorms around St. Louis and Indianapolis this afternoon. We're also worried about severe weather extending in the Oklahoma City and Dallas.

It's warm and it's humid across the rest of the southeast with only spotty thunderstorms. Your exclusive ACUther travel forecast some delays this morning, Boston, New York City, in Philadelphia. to help you make the best decisions and be more in the know, download the Accuether app. Enjoy the weekend and the view. And the other thing, this was not part of what I wanted to do, but we've done it, I guess,

through sheer force of personality. We have a regime change like nobody thought was possible. They said, what do you mean you have regime change? My friend, great show. I love this guy. He's so nice to me. Every time I watch, and I appreciate. You know, we're not supposed to be,

seduced that way, right? But I am. When somebody's nice to me, I love that person. Even if they're bad people, I couldn't care less. I'll fight to the end for them. So I appreciate it. But, you know, I mean, I want to see no nuclear weapon, but we also won regime change. As President Trump committing the quiet part, admitting the quiet part out loud, a confession of sorts on this Good Friday. that was on Wednesday, though, at the White House during a lunch leader, event with faith leaders, talking about how somebody says something nice about him, he's got to defend him, fight for him. Doesn't matter whether good or bad people or not. So John Meacham, it's a bit of a strange segue to welcoming you on this Good Friday,

but it's what we have. quite different from Jesus who told his disciples time and time again to love your enemies, to pray for those who persecute you, to take it as a sign that you're blessed in heaven when people persecute you for your beliefs and your faith in Jesus. I know your favorite day on the church calendar was yesterday, which I need to explained to confused Baptist we thought yesterday was Thursday. Explain like Monday Thursdays your favorite day. And talk about, for people don't really understand, the significance of this day on the Christian calendar.

Right. So it's the great three days, great four days in Western Christianity. yesterday, well, Palm Sunday was last Sunday. It commemorates Jesus' Triangle Journey into Jerusalem for that last week, Passover week, probably the year 33 of the common era. We actually, the historical nature of this is really important because there are certain things we know or we can deduce happened. And Mondi Thursday is the night that he institutes the Last Supper and issues the Great Commandment, do unto other love one another as I have loved you. And the often commemorated in Christian circles by the washing of the feet.

I think you saw the Pope was washing the feet of prisoners in Rome. It's the act of humility. It's the act of the counterintuitive act of a king bowing down to the weaker, the strong serving the weak, which is at the heart, at its best, of the Christian message, a deeply counterintuitive undertaking in a world that is often shaped by brute force and by strength and by the appetites and ambitions, the will and the whim of the, of the world. the strong, Jesus of Nazareth said, no, that in fact, the first shall be last and the last shall be first. And last night, he says, do this in remembrance of me, the institution of what becomes the Eucharist that rekindles and brings back this moment of immense, almost unthinkable, sacrificial love, which happens today, the sacrifice of a father, the sacrifice of a son by a father.

Fascinating, too, that it was, there was a hugely important political context to the historical events that unfolded in Jerusalem in this season. Pontius Pilate, who's the Roman governor, would not have gotten involved if it had been simply a religious dispute. There had to be political implications. Jerusalem was riven by political uncertainty. We know, for instance, one of my favorite elements here is in the great gospel today when Pilot offers the crowd, he says, do you want Jesus of Nazareth or do you want Barabbas? And the gospel simply says Barabbas had been condemned for crimes during the insurrection. And what's so fascinating to me is that it doesn't say anything else. It's as if there was some insurrection, there was some violence, there was some chaos that later in the first century when people are hearing this story, they just knew what it was.

It would be like our saying, this happened during the Cuban Missile Crisis, right? It was just some event that was so big. And there was enormous concern that Jesus might lead. a political revolution, create chaos. What governors were supposed to do was keep war. The death today, he spends three hours on the cross, and then according to Christian conviction, rises again. And the traditional message, there's a great line from John Keble, who was a part of the

Oxford movement in the 19th century, who said to a young preacher, son, don't try to be original. Just preach the gospel. The gospel is very straightforward here. He overcame suffering in death so that we might as well. Well, and not making this political because there's really nothing political about the gospel. And I think it bears repeating this morning that also Jesus was asked why he wasn't fighting back, why he wasn't, you know, if his kingdom, if he was a king, why wasn't he fighting back?

And this really speaks to those who suggest that Christian nationalism is the way forward, because Jesus would want politics to be this way or that way. On the eve of his death, Jesus said, my kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest. but my kingdom is from another place. So with apologies to those leaders who said Jesus should have been armed with an AR-15, Willie, and they have said that, that if Jesus just had an AR-15, he would have avoided arrest by leaders. I think they may be missing the point.

Because again, time and time again, Jesus said, my kingdom is. not of this world, render under Caesar, that which is Caesar under God, that which is God's. I want no part of this. I'm focused on people's souls, on the spirit of this world. And there has been such an injection of politics into religion over the last decade or so. You had a pastor at the White House just this week comparing Donald Trump's life to the life of Jesus Christ here on this holy week of Easter. John Beecham, thank you for taking us to church. Happy Easter to you and the family.

Always great to see you. David Drucker, Jonathan Martin, you both have pieces this morning exploring how much sway Donald Trump will continue to have on the Republican Party as we head toward the midterms and beyond David's piece for Bloomberg titled, Trump's Coalition May Not Survive 2028 and J. Mark's article for Politico titled Trump's clout faces its first real test of 2026. May Mart, I'll start with you on this. We've been asking the question over the last several months. Does Donald Trump even really care about the midterm elections based on some of the statements he's made, the policies he's put in place?

His dismissal of inflation, even as recently as the White House address a couple of nights ago, is a real problem for people saying it'll just go away in time. Do you believe that Donald Trump cares about his own party here ahead of the midterms? I think he cares more about his own clout within the party than he does the first. fortunes of his party in the medium to long term. There's no question about it. Well, the piece that I wrote was about what is immediately ahead of us, which is in April and May, a series of elections, mostly primaries, in which Donald Trump has capital on the line. I think it's worth stepping back, as we did earlier this morning on Pam Bondi, which is extraordinary in its own right to make your Justice Department a tool for political revenge. It's also

remarkable, Willie, that you have a sitting president who is spending time. and capital, both literal capital and certainly his time, trying to oust incumbent members of his own party, whether it's Senator Bill Cassidy in Louisiana, whether it's Thomas Massey and Kentucky, the House member, or whether it's, yes, Indiana state senators who dared to not redraw their House districts mid-decade, those races are all coming up in May. That's where his focus is in the short-term politically. It's not how do we mitigate the otherwise tough midterm, Willie. This is going to be tough. You know, the economy, the challenge of Iran and gas prices. Every incumbent president faces this challenge of their first midterm. No, he's focused on how do I enact

purity in my party when it comes to the only doctrine that matters, which is loyalty to me. And that's why I think this period, April and May is so fascinating. It's going to test whether or not he has full control over his party via the primary voters of his party. which has always been the source of his power within the GOP. It's the control of the primary electorate. If he loses that, boy, I think the sand from the hourglass starts to flow a lot faster going into the midterms this fall. Yeah, David Drucker, big concerns for Republicans, obviously, about the House, but even though about the Senate, Senate, you're hearing some of those whispers. But you're actually looking even farther over the hill toward 2028 and what the Republican Party might look like, what kind of Canada.

it might nominate and you suggest it may well not come from the Trump administration. Well, you know, the interesting thing about Donald Trump for all of his peccadillo's, he was able to assemble a rather impressive coalition in 2024. And what he has been able to do that not a lot of presidents are able to do, right? We've seen some Barack Obama, Ronald Reagan, is he's been able to convince a lot of different people that he's a lot of different things and so they all see themselves in him Donald Trump is we've talked about before guys he's just normal enough for the normies in the Republican Party least up until now but I think that still holds

pretty well and he's just out there enough if you will for the populists and the people that think the whole system's rigged and corrupt and why do we even show up and so that allows him to assemble a coalition that in in an elect from an electoral standpoint has been very hard to beat and is also a lot of the source of his strength within the party because he's able to keep a lot of these people on board all believing that he's one of them, right? And that is going to be very hard for anybody to do, regardless of who the nominee is for the Republican Party in 2028. I don't care of its Vice President J.D. Vance, Secretary of State Marco Rubio. I could come up with some really impressive people from the

Reagan wing of the party, some others from the populist wing, they are going to have a really hard time to almost non-existent ability to convince all of these different people that they're an acceptable candidate and that they are trustworthy. And that means that the next nominee is going to have a much harder time, but the very least is going to have to assemble in a completely different coalition in order to be successful. And that may begin after these midterms. Senior writer at the dispatch, David Drucker, Politico's Jonathan Martin. Thank you both. Their pieces are available to read online. Happy Easter to both of you as well. Coming up, ESPN college basketball guru Jay Billis joins us from the site of the men's final four. We'll get his picks for this weekend. Great national semifinals. Morning

Joe's coming right back. I know that you've commented on the thing with Roger Rears and you've talked about it. You surprised the amount of attention that that's gotten. And I was also just curious as a follow on that, what is your general approach to dealing with officials during games? Yeah. Surprised now, you know, I don't. I mean, there's obviously a, you know, the reaction, the outrage, you know, I don't, I guess I just look at it a lot differently, you know, and I think we all do and I think that's what I guess makes social media so appealing to people is that you could have the discourse and different opinions about how somebody carries themselves in a for you it's a game or for some people we're just out there playing a game for me it's a life or death battle it's a

war it's a street fight for me that's Yukon men's head basketball coach Dan Hurley, speaking of the media ahead of tomorrow's final four matchup with Illinois. He was responding to a question about that bizarre interaction in the moments following Yukon's go-ahead shot, that miracle moment from the tournament in the win over Duke, when Hurley appeared to bump heads for just a moment with referee Roger Ayers before both men walked in opposite directions. The Huskies play the fighting alineate tomorrow night in Indianapolis, followed by the other national semifinal between Arizona and Michigan.

joining us now to break down the final four ESPN college basketball analyst, the great Jay Billis. Jay, always so great to see you. It means there are big games ahead of us this time of year. Let's start with Dan Hurley. Let's start with Yukon, perhaps personally a little bit painful for you, but you're always good at separating yourself. That Duke loss, just take us through, if you can, your reaction to that sequence. When Duke inbounds the ball, Yukon comes up with the steel. And as you've pointed out, and I was saying after the game, the moment where Alex Caraband, the veteran, the legend at Yukon passes up a shot that I think most of us would have just launched there out of panic, gives the ball back to Mullins and hits the shot.

What did you think in real time as you were watching that sequence? You know, Willie, I think my reaction was the same as every person, every fan watching the game was your jaw was on the floor. You couldn't believe it. That there was that kind of reversal in it. the game that you thought a little bit earlier might have been in the bag for Duke. And you're right. I think the play, one, the deflection, obviously, that Yukon got to get the ball back, but the play that Alex Caraband made, you know, the presence of mind to be able to pitch it back to a great shooter in Brayland Mullins, who hadn't had his best game to launch that three. And Mullins hit a lot

of those types of shots in high school. Like, he's got logo range, and he shot that one from the logo, but I think everybody knew that watched him. He had that logo range. But Alex Caraband's an experienced player. You know, he's won two national championships. And if Yukon were to win the national championship this year, he would have three. And he would be the only non-UCL player in history to have three national championships. That's pretty remarkable. Wow. Yeah, that is stunning. You know, that game, Yukon, Illinois, we can start with the early game. Obviously, Yukon knows how to play in these big games. It's interesting, though, Arizona, Michigan, I think the consensus is maybe those are

the two best teams, and everyone's talking about Yukon because of that shot. But Illinois is really, really good. So for people are looking ahead, oh, Yukon's going to win three and four years. Can you talk a little bit about how tough that first matchup is with Illinois? Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, how many times have we seen a Final Four where you think that one side of the bracket is the de facto national championship game and the winner's just going to win the title? then a team out of the other side wins it.

And that could certainly happen this year because you're right. Illinois is really good. They are so offensively gifted. You know, Brad Underwood has recruited a bunch of international players, whether it's from Serbia or Montenegro or the like, that are very, very skilled and they're tough. And what Illinois does better than most any team, they take care of the ball.

They average less than nine turnovers a game, and they don't foul very much. So they don't put their opponents at the front. foul line. They can shoot it from just about every position. They've got positional size. And they've got a freshman point guard named Keaton Wogler, who earlier this season had 46 points in a game. And he wasn't even ranked in the top 150 coming out of high school. Brad Underwood's son, Tyler, found him playing in Shawnee, Kansas, and had heard about him. And he reminds me a lot of Tyrese Halliburton. That's how good I think he is. And he just, you can't speed him up,

and he makes the right play. But Illinois is a matchup hunting team. It's not like they run a patterned offense that you could name, say they run flex or something else. They look for matchups and they hunt those out and they find the weakest defenders and they go after them. That's what they did to Iowa in the second half. They just found the matchup they liked and they let those guys fry.

Yeah, I'm invested. My parents both went to Illinois. I grew up, Jay, going to the Lou Henson basketball camp in Champaign, living with my grandmother in Champaign. So I'm ILL all the way, and the Wogler story is incredible, from unknown to he'll be a lottery pick a couple of months from now. Let's look at the other side of the bracket. Boy, two really, really good teams as you watch through this tournament. If you didn't get a chance to watch Arizona living maybe on the East Coast,

you've gotten a chance over the last couple of weeks. How good are these two teams, and who do you think has the edge? They're both great teams, and they've got some similarities in that they're really big. Arizona plays a little bit differently in that they're going to punch the ball inside. They're kind of an old school team that takes advantage of their size by getting it in the paint and they get fouled a lot. They make more free throws on the season than their opponents even attempt. And it's by like a hundred. They've made a hundred more than their opponents have even attempted.

So they live at the foul line. And Michigan's going to have to play good defense to protect the paint and protect the rim without fouling and putting them on the line. And Arizona's led by freshmen. Braden Burry's from San Bernardino, California is their leading score. And he can really shoot it. He's athletic. He's creative finishing around the rim when he gets there, especially in transition. And Coa Pete, who had 30 points to start the season against Florida and really announced

his arrival as a big, strong forward. But their engine is Jaden Bradley, who transferred in from Alabama a few years ago. He's a big 12 player of the year. And in clutch time, the last five minutes of a game within six points, I think clutch time is defined by. He averages 36 points per 40 minutes of clutch time this year. And so when the game's on the line, Bradley's the one that takes over. And Michigan has equal size. They're not as bulky at the center position.

A daimara transferred in to Michigan from UCLA. And he's a terrific shot blocker. He's 7-3, his arms go forever. So he can protect the rim. their best player is Yaxel Lendeborg. And last year, Willie, there were two players in the country that led their teams in scoring, rebounding, assist, steals, and blocks. It was Cooper Flagg at Duke and Yaxel Lendeborg at UAB. Now he's transferred to Michigan. And he's having a great tournament. Over his last three games of the NCAA tournament after the opening round game, he's averaging over

25 points a game and shooting 60% from the field. I mean, he's the real deal. So, Jay, who do you like? If you have to pick two teams tomorrow and then one on Monday, day. Where are you going? You know, I picked Arizona to start the tournament. I thought they were the best team, but that Arizona Michigan game is a coin flip, but I'm going to stick with Arizona. And even though Illinois is favored in Vegas, and Illinois is really good. We just talked about it. I kind of favor Yukon. You know, Danny Hurley doesn't lose after, if he gets past the Sweet 16, he's not shown in his career that he loses. So I like Yukon and Arizona. I like Arizona to win the whole thing. All right. Sicking with your pick. I like it. Let's look at tonight's women's games.

The final four begins tonight. You just have the Titans playing each other. Same group as we had last year. South Carolina, Yukon, the two dominant programs of this era, then Texas and UCLA on the other side. Who do you like in these games and who do you like to win at all? It's hard to go against Yukon. Like Yukon's got a great team. But I'd watch out for UCLA. Like Lauren Betts is hard to guard. She's got size and skill. And even though UCLA might not be picked by a lot of experts, watch out for the Bruins. Yeah, they're tough. They're tough.

Jay, I noted I was looking, this is 40 years this weekend since you and those guys, Johnny Dawkins and Tommy Amaker kind of started the Duke era with a run to the national championship game of your own, ran into never-nervious Purvis in that final. But you guys kind of opened the door and we're still in this Duke era 40 years. later. So good for you, man. Always good to have you on the show. And if you weren't ready for the final four, you are now, right? Yeah, it's been 40 years, Willie, since we lost to Louisville in that title game. I'm glad you brought it up and a nation still mourns. I love that team, though. You guys are really good. Jay, always great to have you on the show. The Billis briefing.

You are ready now for the final four. Jay, of course, will be part of the network's college game day coverage ahead of tip off tomorrow. That'll be from two. to 6 o'clock Eastern before those two games. Jay, thanks so much, my friend. Appreciate it. Thank you, really.