Morning Joe - Suspect named in Michigan church shooting and fire that left at least four dead

Episode Date: September 29, 2025

Suspect named in Michigan church shooting and fire that left at least four dead Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

It's not a list, but I think there'll be others. I mean, they're corrupt. These were corrupt, radical left Democrats. Because Comey essentially was a, he's worse than a Democrat. I would say the Democrats are better than Comey. But, no, there'll be others. Look, it was, that's my opinion. They weaponized the Justice Department like nobody in history.

What they've done is terrible. And so I would, I hope there were, Frankly, I hope there are this case. You can't let this happen to a country. Well, there's certainly going to be more indictments coming over the next three and a half years of the Trump administration. But we're always going to let the law drive this stuff and the facts of the case and not political motivations. Well, a couple false. Just outright falsehoods right off the top.

Number one, the president says there's ever been a politicalization or weaponization of the Justice Department before in history compared to the last administration. You know, actually, the last week or two breaks all records for that. There's not even a close second when it comes to the weaponization of the Justice Department, not even in the Nixon administration. Of course, J.D. Vance saying that the law would – no, it's just not true. You actually have judges, you have right-wing commentators, you have the National Review, you have the Wall Street Journal, all talking about the extraordinarily dangerous steps the Trump administration has taken over the past couple of weeks to politicize, to weaponize

the Justice Department, that's coming from the right, that's coming from the National Review, that's coming from Andy McCarthy. Fox News is Andy McCarthy. That's coming from the Wall Street Journal. So those two things you just heard off the top lies. All of them lies. Everything about it false. So with that, happy Monday. We hope you had a great weekend. Trump and Vice President advance predicting more indictments could be coming after the ones that came down on Thursday for former FBI director James Comey. We're going to bring you the very latest in that case. Also ahead, we'll explain how current FBI director Cash Patel undercut the president's social media rant over another former FBI director and the insurrection on January 6th. Plus, the New York City mayoral race is now down to three candidates after Mayor Eric Adams dropped out yesterday. We'll dig into that decision and what it means for the race.

Meanwhile, on Capitol Hill, lawmakers are running out of time to reach a deal that would prevent a government shutdown. We'll bring you the latest on those negotiations. And we'll recap an exciting Ryder Cup that was overshadowed at time. by the horrific behavior on the part of the fans. There's absolutely horrific behavior. Rory, Maca Rory, and his wife abused. And again, McElroy, one of the favorites on the tour when it's not at the Rider Cup. But he and his wife underwent just unbelievable abuse. And those fans shamed themselves, embarrassed the United States Rider Cup team.

The entire team should be apologizing for the behavior. because the last thing we want is when they go over in a couple of years to Europe to have to face that type of abuse. Hatred. And, you know, the whole idea about sports is to teach character. And this weekend, it was just absolutely heinous. What a golfer, what the European golfers were having to withstand. I will say, we're one or two Americans that were trying to keep the crowds, Wyatt, while others were trying to put and trying to hit the ball. And while abusive language

is being shouted at players and their wives, when beer was being thrown on their wives by American fans at Beth Page Black, one of the greatest golf courses in the world, just shameful. Absolutely shameful. With us, we have the co-host of our fourth hour. Staff writer at the Atlantic, Jonathan Lemire, columnist, an associate editor for the Washington Post. David Ignatius is with us this morning. NBC News, National Affairs analyst, partner and chief political columnist at Puck. John Heilman is here as well. Let's get to our top story this morning.

At least four people were killed and eight others wounded yesterday during an attack on a church in Michigan. Authorities say the suspect identified as 40-year-old Thomas Jacob Sanford drove a vehicle through the front doors of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Grand Blanc Township before he began shooting at worshippers attending the Sunday service. Police believe the suspect then intentionally set fire to the church, reducing much of the building to rubble, where investigators say more victims may still be found. Officials note, as many as three improvised devices were also found at the scene.

the suspected gunman who was killed after exchanging fire with police is from a nearby town and has a military background. He served in the Marines for four years and was deployed to Iraq, according to a Marine Corps spokesman. At this hour, authorities are still working to uncover a motive for the attack. But the FBI says it is investigating this as an act of targeted violence. President Trump reacted to react to the fatal shooting on social media yesterday, calling it horrendous, describing it as yet another targeted attack on Christians in the U.S., and writing, this epidemic of violence in our country must end immediately. Well, I mean, the targeting, sadly, over the past several years have been against Christians,

been against Jews, been against Muslims, been against schoolchildren, been mass shootings, mass killings. And we don't know. We have no idea what the motives of this vet was, who I think I saw a picture of him driving a pickup truck. They had a picture of his pickup truck with two big American flags, drove it into the church. There's a picture of it with the two flags in the back, pickup truck, drove it into the church, and then started shooting. just an absolute nightmare, a nightmare situation. Violence continued. We have more violence this weekend, another vet in North Carolina,

unfortunately, sadly, that has writings that are anti-LBGTQ. So there is violence and violence all over America this weekend. In red states and blue states, it is just a tragic weekend. Let's bring in MSNBC investigative correspondent Mark Santia. is live from Grand Blank, Michigan. Mark, just set up the scene for us. Just another one of these horrific shootings that we've seen far too many of, especially in places of church and synagogues and mosques over the past five years. Yeah, Joe and Mika, the church is just behind me down the road. Right now, this road is closed. As the sun comes up, we're expecting first responders, police,

firefighters to head in. Right now investigators are preserving. They're holding the scene, but firefighters will go back in there and search for people because we're told several of the walls collapsed during this raging fires. They're going to head in. First responders will continue searching for victims. There were hundreds of people inside the church yesterday at the time of this attack. This happened yesterday morning. Joe, as you said, during service, people were inside. And that's when police say a 40-year-old man who lives in the area intentionally rammed his truck into the church. We are told by law enforcement sources, people rushed to him. They thought he was in an accident.

They were running to help. And that's when the man opened fire shooting several people. The ATF says he also used gasoline to set the church on fire. We are told it was a raging fire. You couldn't get feet to this church, free from this church. Four people were killed. police say several more were injured, adding members inside were, quote, shielding children and practicing their faith. Now, we spoke to Genesee County Sheriff Christopher Swanson. He was here

on the scene all day. We caught up with him last night at the end of his tour. He described the chaos and the heroes who stepped up to save lives. The reality is you plan for it, you train for it, and there it is life. I've been on this for a long time. You know, over three decades. And as I was walking to the scene, a dad turned to me, and he's got soot on his mouth, and he's got a disheveled look, and just that panic. And he said, Sheriff, I can't find my son. I said, we're going to find your son. But at that point, you can't give a dad the answer that he wants. And you got him in a family reunification center. That's the aftermath that happens when you have a scene like this, an active shooter. There's

people who cannot find their family members, and panic sets in. I saw it in his eyes. this is yet another message of it's not us and them it's us it's a country it's a people and when these things happen instead of the divide this is the time to unite police were on scene here within 30 seconds law enforcement killed the shooter minutes later the FBI is now the lead investigative agency they've not released a motive at this time but they say this was a deliberate targeted attack. They also believe the shooter acted alone. Now, security at area churches has been stepped up. And here in Grand Blank, all schools are closed today. Joe and Mika, send it back to you. MSNBC investigative correspondent Mark Santia reporting live from Michigan. Thank you very

much for that report. And it is just so shocking when you see this happening. And we have seen it happened far too much. I know in years past, we've seen black churches burned to the ground. Of course, we know what happened in Charleston, just absolutely sad, absolutely awful. We know what happened in Nashville at the Christian private school. We see what's happened here. I remember a mosque, a worshiper being shot after in New Jersey. And of course, the Tree of Life in Pittsburgh, synagogues. You know, it's so sad. You go around New York City and synagogues.

And unfortunately, the hatred, they face the people going to synagogues, Jewish people, they face hatred from the far right and the far left. And so you see this, and it's just, it is so deeply disturbing that people can't even worship anymore. I remember back five, six, seven years ago, a Baptist church in Texas being shot up by an AR-15. And it's just an absolute epidemic of gun violence that's even affecting people in church. And there's more to report. Police say three people are dead and at least five others injured after a lone gunman

opened fire at a Pax, North Carolina waterfront bar on Saturday evening. In what officials described as a, quote, highly premeditated attack, the suspect is facing several charges, including multiple counts of first-degree murder and attempted murder, he allegedly began shooting from a boat in the water outside the bar in Southport, around 9.30 on Saturday night. Officials say he then fled the scene on his boat to the neighboring community, a Vogue Island where a U.S. Coast Guard crew managed to detain him. Military records show the suspect served in the Marines from September 2003 through June of 2009, reaching the rank of sergeant and was deployed twice as a part of Operation Iraqi Freedom.

Jonathan O'Meer, just gun violence is just, again, spreading all over this country. Another horrible weekend for shootings in red states, in blue states all across this country. Here, we, of course, have a tragic incident in North Carolina where you have another veteran, may perhaps suffering PTSD. We don't know. it's still speculative. That's what many people are talking about, the incident, the tragedy in Michigan. But here you have somebody who, a former vet, who based on writings that at least initial report show had anti-LBGTQ rhetoric, but also was talking, of course, in conspiracy theories,

just completely, again, just completely unbalanced. as so many of these shooters are. Yeah, certainly it's a nation awash in guns, Joe and Mika, and certainly when people have, whether it is some sort of mental illness or hatred in their heart for a group, it's too easy for them to act upon it. And that's what we've seen here. And unfortunately, these last few weeks here in the nation,

we have just one stunning body blow after another in terms of these acts of violence, these mass shootings, these targeted attacks. And that's what the FBI has declared both of these incidents, we've been talking about so far this morning. There's a lot we don't know yet exactly about motivations. I guess we should note the FBI not as quick to put out details about these two gunmen as they were about others in recent days.

But for the families involved, that's where, of course, our hearts are breaking. This is a terrible tragedy in both places. And, of course, we hope right now that the whole nation, you know, the temperature comes down And we need some leaders here to try to preach sort of this idea of calm, patience, and forgiveness. All right. President Trump and his administration are defending the Justice Department's indictment of former FBI director James Comey in a truth social post over the weekend. The president called Comey a, quote, dirty cop. A dirty cop who helped get him elected. And claimed FBI agents were happy.

All you have to do is just say thank you to him, I'm sure, he'd think. charges. He also thanked current FBI director Cash Patel for his work on the case. The editors of the National Review called this, quote, the deeply flawed Comey indictment, and their piece reads in part this. The political animus that fueled the indictment against James Comey is bad, but it may pale in comparison to the incompetence of the Trump Justice Department's execution of the lawfare ordered by the president. This sorry place is where lawfare takes the nation. Trump has valid complaints that his political enemies, Comey included, abused the justice system to try and convict him, bankrupt him, and render him unelectable. But turnabout is not fair play. Turnabout is the betrayal of the president's

responsibility to execute the laws faithfully. Turnabout is the president transforming James Comey into a martyr. And make no mistake about it. That's what the president's doing. The president's turning James Comey into a martyr, just like he's made Jimmy Kimmel more popular than ever, ever. Look at the guest list that Jimmy Kimmel has this week. It's the biggest stars in Hollywood, the biggest stars on the stage, the biggest rock stars all going on Jimmy Kimmel show, all because Donald Trump has made him bigger than ever before. And he's doing the same thing with Jimmy Kim. Turnabout is not fair play and also turnabout ends up only helping the person you are attacking. The National Review also features a new piece by contributing editor Andrew McCarthy, who says, quote,

the indictment against Comey should be dismissed. And he writes in part this, quote, Andy McCarthy, Fox News is Andy McCarthy. The vindictive indictment that Trump Justice Department barely managed to get a grand jury to approve on Thursday is so ill-conceived, Andy McCarthy writes. And so incompetently drafted, Andy McCarthy writes, he should be able to get it thrown out on a pretrial motion to dismiss. The indictment should be dismissed because there is no factual basis for a perjury charge. And as Andy McCarthy says, because the second count obstruction hinges on the perjury charge. I'm sure Comey would rather have a jury clear him, but this baseless case should never see a trial.

court. David Ignatius, we've heard the talk, again, from the right, from the left, from people who are on Fox News, from people who are on MSNBC, four people who write for the Wall Street Journal, four people who write for the New York Times, left and right, just saying that this is a bogus case and it is lawfare. The only intention is he wants payback and he wants to make Comey pay. And when you see people like the vice president going out there,

and they're based on law, it's just, it's ridiculous. They know they're lying. And the question is, when they're promising more of this, where does it take the country? Where does it take the White House? Where does it take the Justice Department? So, Joe, I think the reaction that you're citing from people on the left and the right to the Comey indictment shows that this really is, to an unusual extent, a direct political prosecution led by President Trump, who has openly called on his Attorney General, Pam Bondi, to pursue his political enemies. In this case, you had a very experienced U.S. attorney in Virginia refused to bring the indictment. That person was fired.

You had misgivings were told within all of the senior career people in that district against bringing the case. A novice was brought in who would present the indictment to a grand jury by news accounts. Her performance was what you would expect from somebody who had no experience. Very unusual. And now you have Trump calling for further attacks on other political. enemy, saying that he wouldn't, he would think that there would be a Justice Department investigation of the person he appointed as the FBI director after James Comey, Chris, Chris Ray, a Republican who tried to do an honest and bipartisan job in one of that most difficult positions.

So I think there is a sense among the attorneys I talked to that a line has been crossed, that the people who are working in the Justice Department, working in the FBI, really do worry now that they are working in a politicized agency environment where the president looks, goes after his enemies, demands that they be pursued. We're just not in the kind of orderly rule of law system that we expect rightly living in the United States.

And I think the fact that this reaction is from both the left and the right means that people who are in the bar, part of law enforcement may begin to stand up and push back. I hope so. So David, stand by. We're going to take a 90-second pause. On the other side of the break, David will continue, and also Ken Delennian will join us, about the concept of President Trump, also wanting Chris Ray investigated. Also, General Hurdling is standing by to talk about this meeting of hundreds of generals being pulled to for tomorrow. And Mike Lukika is standing by to talk about the Ryder Cup and what happened there, especially with the fans and how they behaved. We'll be right back. Probably Tori

also straight ahead when we return. Welcome back. So our conversation continues with now, it appears President Trump setting his sights on Chris Ray. Jonathan Lemire, give us the latest. Yeah, the president is hinting at a potential investigation into another former FBI director on the heels of James Comey, this time Christopher Ray. In an exclusive phone interview with NBC News, the president said he would, quote, would think the Justice Department was investigating Ray and accused the former bureau chief of inappropriate behavior during his time at the agency. Trump continued. I think it's very inappropriate what he did, what he did, and I think a lot of his service was very inappropriate.

But we haven't gone beyond that. Don't forget, we just found out about all of these FBI agents being there. Now, Trump is referencing a report by the right-wing outlet, The Blaze, from last week, that claims that there were more than 250 plain-closed officers in the crowds during the January 6th insurrection. Trump posted about it on Truth Social over the weekend, saying the agents were probably acting as agitators and insurrectionists, and certainly not as law enforcement. enforcement officials. This report has not been confirmed by NBC News, and there is simply no evidence

that undercover FBI officers were at protest at or near the Capitol on January 6th, 2021. A report by the DOJ's Inspector General's office in December concluded the same. Now, FBI director Cash Patel wrote over the weekend on social media that 247 agents were at the protest, but for crowd control. And in an interview, Patel went further, explaining that those agents were only sent into the crowd after it had already been declared a riot. Now, Christopher Ray has not responded to any of the allegations made. Joining us now, MSNBC Justice and Intelligence correspondent Ken Delanian to bring us more. Good morning, Ken. It was striking the Cash Patel, even went on Fox News to kind of tamp down some of the president's rhetoric there about January.

sixth. So I think that appears to be a piece of this puzzle, but otherwise, Trump giving no suggestion at all what wrongdoing Christopher Ray may have committed, and he certainly didn't provide any evidence. Well, Jonathan, I mean, it's really, it shouldn't surprise anyone to see that Donald Trump is turning his sights on Christopher Ray. Christopher Ray, let's remember, presided over the FBI when the FBI investigated Donald Trump. And that investigation resulted in two federal indictments. Christopher Ray signed off on the FBI's decision to search Mar-a-Lago. Christopher Ray, Donald Trump's appointee to run the FBI. So Donald Trump, as we all know, is looking for any possible reason he can find to target his enemies. This particular allegation, though, as he said,

was so bogus that Cash Patel had to clean it up. And let me just explain, we shouldn't say things like NBC can't confirm that we're undercover FBI operatives inside the Capitol riot. That's been totally debunked. As you said by the Inspector General of the Justice Department, when Trump said this, I had sources from inside the FBI messaging me saying, wait a second, we have geo-fencing. We know exactly who is in the Capitol and who wasn't. We have records that show that you could request those under the Freedom Information Act. They probably would never release them. But they know exactly who was in the Capitol. And there were some FBI informants, not agents, who were in the crowd that day.

None of them went into the Capitol, and there were certainly no undercover agents involved. And this has been a thing on the right and among congressional Republicans, a conspiracy theory that just won't die. But it was interesting to see Cash Patel try to kill it. And, you know, there was another aspect of this that is getting less attention that we should also talk about, which is that on Friday night, Donald Trump posted a truth social post going after Lisa Monica, the Deputy Attorney General under Merrick Garland, who was also heavily involved in the Jack Smith investigation to the extent that she was briefed on it,

not that she was directing any of it because he was a special counsel. She works for Microsoft now in a senior job, and Donald Trump essentially threatened Microsoft with their federal contracts if they don't get rid of Lisa Monaco. So this is the kind of thing that's been happening. It's going to continue to happen.

And the other thing we should say is that Trump and his allies continue to say that the Justice Department was weaponized under the Biden administration, that they committed lawfare when they went after Donald Trump. They've been in office now for eight months. They have not produced any evidence to support that contention. Not a single email, not a single record of a meeting. Ken, Ken, Ken, Ken, hold on. Donald Trump had Barr sent John Durham all over the world and make himself look like a fool being an investigator investigating the investigation no no no this has already been done they tried this in 2019 and 2020 and john Durham and Bill Barr looked like fools because they investigated the investigators.

This is the same thing that happened when Comer did his investigation on Capitol Hill, trying to investigate the Biden crime family. He humiliated himself so much. The Republicans said, please stop. Please stop. So I guess my question to you is, since they've already done these investigations and every time they do them, they just make themselves look dumber and dumber and dumber.

The question is this, when are Republican senators, I know this is a rhetorical question to you, I'll ask it to Heilman after you finish here, but any evidence of Republican senators concerned that the Justice

Department's making a fool of themselves, these are going to get thrown out. They've already tried to go after Lisa Cook, a Fed member, And Reuters debunked that conspiracy theory. Now they're talking about Fannie Willis. Now they're talking, I mean, now they're talking about other former FBI directors. How long before somebody in the Republican Party goes through the wives and say, you're killing us here?

This is going to destroy us in midterms because we're actually politicizing the Justice Department even more than those that we accuse. of justifying the Justice Department. Joe, on that question, the national security of the country may hinge, because you're absolutely right. There are many, many Republican senators, as we all know, who will tell you in private how horrific they think all of this is, not just what's happening at the Justice Department, but as David Ignatius well knows, inside the intelligence community. But they are not speaking up. Mark Warner, the chairman of the Intelligence Committee, is trying to sound the alarm about what he says is the politicization that's going on within those agencies and the

and the good people that are being pushed out. Democratic senators is trying to sound the alarm, but Republicans have just not stepped up, even those who know better. And we are headed down a really dangerous path right now. It gets worse by the day in terms of the things that are happening inside these agencies. And I've said this before.

People I talk to all the time are very concerned that something very bad is going to happen because when they're focusing on all of these things that don't go anywhere, these extraneous allegations that aren't supported, They're not focusing on the really important stuff, the threats that are aimed at our country, or they're spending less resources on those things. And so that's the real concern, guys.

MSNBC Justice Intelligence correspondent, Ken Delaney, and thank you so much. And Ken's exactly right, John Heilman. Instead of focusing on threats from China, instead of focusing on threats from Russia, instead of focusing on threats from Iran, instead of focusing on threats from al-Qaeda, from ISIS, from terror groups that want to do our country harm, they're going after their political enemies. They are gutting our intel agencies. They are gutting the Justice Department.

They are firing people that are actually the very people who have been standing shoulder to shoulder against these intel threats from China and Russia and Iran and al-Qaeda and ISIS and the worst international terrorist groups on the planet. And yet this continues, and, you know, John, of course, we know the answer right now. Republicans in the Senate haven't said a damn thing. But the gutting of our intel agencies, the gutting of the Justice Department, all of this, as Ken just said, not might, will have a horrible impact on our national security.

will say it will also have a terrible impact on our politics, and it will be Republicans, unfortunately, and others who will pay because when a Democrat or an independent billionaire gets into office, they'll probably do the same thing back if this continues. I mean, Joe, so much, I mean, everything you just said is correct. I think it's, first the question is, I think, not just when Republicans, will any Republicans speak up, will anybody be concerned? I think we know all of these Republican senators when they decided to give up their Article I authority effectively

at the beginning of the second Trump term. All of them, all of them almost to a person, have Cash Patel's confirmation, have Pam Bondi's confirmation. They voted for those things. They gave the rubber stamp to those people so they feel politically implicated. They don't want to.

have to criticize those appointees that they stood behind in lockstep for Donald Trump. And I think beyond what they might say in any given moment, the real question, Joe, I think is when will Republicans, any number of Republicans actually do something, someone beyond giving a speech or beyond putting out a piece of social media? I think, you know, that the answer to that is not until they first say something, and there's no sign of them saying something. So I don't think we can expect Republicans on Capitol Hill to save us. And I will also say that beyond Not the politicization of the Justice Department, the politicization of the FBI, there is this deeper, I think, a more profound thing going on, which is the deprofessionalization of those agencies. Buried in the Trump budget is the fact that the FBI's budget has been cut, the ATF's budget has been cut.

All of the agencies you just talked about that are involved in national security and what was formerly the professional side of justice and law enforcement, all of them have. lost or losing resources in Trump's budget, and all of those resources are being shifted over to where? They're being shifted to ICE, which has had its budget tripled while the rest of traditional law enforcement and national security has been shrunk under Donald Trump. What does that tell you about where Donald Trump's priorities are and what the risks are to the country due to those priorities? Well, he forgot somebody.

What's that? Well, two. First of all, those who, top of my list, Bobby Kennedy, Jr., those who went along with that, and they're facing the consequences now, and are shocked, shocked that he's an anti-vaxxer, and Pete Heggsett, who everybody that you talked to off the record knew was not qualified to be Secretary of Defense, and now look what's happening. Right. And another layer to this is the military. The state of Oregon and its largest city, Portland, are suing to block President Trump from deploying the National Guard troops there. The lawsuit follows Trump's announcement on social media over the weekend, ordering the defense department to send troops to the city to use, quote, full force if necessary to combat protests. He says, were interfering with immigration enforcement. State officials say the Pentagon followed, through on Trump's order Sunday morning calling up 200 troops of the state's 6,500 member National Guard contingent. According to the lawsuit protests outside the ICE facility have been small in recent weeks and demonstrations have not, quote, necessitated any arrest since mid-June. Meanwhile, federal immigration agents were spotted patrolling downtown Chicago over the weekend as the White House Ramsop, it's immigration crackdown there.

You know, let's bring around retired U.S. Army Lieutenant General Mark Hurdling and president of the National Action Network and the host of MSNBC's Politics Nation, Reverend Al Sharpt. In general, let me start with you. You know, when we were on the Armed Services Committee, we are always concerned about readiness. We are always concerned about the morale of troops. We are always concerned about were they ready to be deployed, whether it was to Europe, whether it was to Asia, wherever the next great. threat was, the Middle East. And we always worried about readiness, and we always worried about them

getting off mission, which is so bizarre, because what do you hear from people in the Maga Base? Oh, you know, they're so worried about DEI that they've lost their mission. Now we have National Guard troops picking up trash in Washington, D.C. I'm just straight, Straight question. I want a straight answer. And I'll get one from you. What does it do to the morale of the National Guard? What does it do to the readiness of the National Guard? What does it do to the readiness of our armed forces when you have these National Guard members and in L.A. Marines used as political props and picking up trash in Washington Parks? We're already seeing the indications of that, Joe, with reenlistment rates. As a commander, one of the things you look to do is try and persuade your soldiers to stay with the team, to reenlist, to stay with us. We've seen the units that have been deployed to Los Angeles and indicators are the ones that have been deployed to Washington, already saying, this is not what I signed up for. This is crazy.

I'm not, you know, a maintenance, a lawn maintenance team spreading mulch and raking up leaves. I think we will see the same thing in Oregon, because the Oregon National Guard is a very unique organization. They come from a unique state. And remember, the people that are being mobilized come from within the state. These are the governor's forces. This is the governor's national guard. And when they are federalized by the president, which is what happened to the 200 or so that had been federal, probably the military policemen and women from that state's National Guard, but I don't know.

That's conjecture. They're going to be asked to do some things through their commanders that they know could potentially be illegal. When I saw the truth, the true social post that said use full force, my hair is on every part of my body stood up because using full force as a going in rules of engagement is contrary both to legality and the uniform code of military justice as well as the morality of these forces. Yeah, David Ignatius, that can't be underscored enough. And let's remember here, the president, yes, he has unique authority over Washington, D.C., and deployed federal officers and the National Guard there. Memphis is a red state governor, so the governor welcomed them in, so that would be okay. This is different. This is different. This is the

The governor of Oregon doesn't want this. The mayor of Portland doesn't want this. And it is sending American troops getting a desensitizing American citizens to seeing the sight of American soldiers on their streets. And as General Hurtling said, potentially with really dangerous consequences. So, Jonathan, this is what is not supposed to happen in America, the use of our military against our own citizens for what essentially amount to law enforcement purposes. We have police forces, other agencies that do that, and we have an 1878 statute, the Posse Comitatis Act, that makes clear that law enforcement functions are not appropriate or legal for the military.

That was overridden, according to a U.S. District Court judge in California when National Guard was federalized there and U.S. Marines were added to the force, and they were specifically told, yes, Joe. I want you to underline this fact. Yeah. This law, the Posse Comitatis Act, it's unambiguous. Now, there are some things, and I've said this was very beginning. It is not ambiguous. The Democrats that are, for Democrats who are saying, oh, he's doing this, he's doing, I go, yeah, you know, they said they were going to try to push the boundaries of Article 2 powers. There are ambiguities, and this is a Supreme Court that will say, we're going to give the president more powers because there are a lot of.

of people on that court that have long believed that. In this specific case, talk about how unambiguous this law is. And even the Supreme Court, even the people that want to help Trump the most on the Supreme Court can't find a way there here unless they want to completely violate the Constitution. So, Joe, the simplest way to state this is to describe what the District Court Judge, Judge Breyer, said in his opinion, his opinion was scathing to an extent I've rarely seen. And he said that the understanding of what the Posse Cometatis Act means was so clear that representatives of Northcom, which was the force providing the military, providing overall command of control, had PowerPoint slides saying, you're not allowed to do this and this.

These were aspects of law enforcement. You can't do crowd control. You can't set up roadblocks. You'd go down this list on the PowerPoint. And then they were told that there was a special constitutional exception, which had been ordered, nobody said by whom, from Washington, that meant that some of these categories of law enforcement activities seemingly clearly prohibited by an 1878 law where in this case to be allowed.

It's a shocking judicial opinion, and it applies equally to what's happening now in Oregon. Essentially, they are overriding not simply tradition, but specific laws that are intended to make sure that our military is never used directly against our people. And that's the point that we've come to, and I'm sure every person associated with the military like General Hurdling is shocked to see this happen. And Reverend Sharpton, we should note it's the National Guard being deployed here in Portland, a city that President Trump has railed about four years. We also know high on his list, Chicago. And this weekend we saw dozens, if not more, of massed ice agents working in the loop. When we look at this, though, it is.

very frightening to many people because they seem to be chosen without any rhyme or reason because the local officials are not asking for them. There seems to be a pushback from a lot of the citizens. We see in Illinois people that were saying they were abused in peaceful protests, and you have to ask for what reason. Then you also remember the president said, we're going into Chicago. He has not done that. we're going into Memphis.

I mean, what is the strategy behind this? If the people there that you were supposed to be protecting or saying, we don't need that protection, there's no problem, we can handle this. It seems like some kind of political roadmap that the president is following in his own head rather than responding to a need and doing it in a way the military is not supposed to be used in the first place.

Well, if you're using federal agents and you're using additional ICE agents, let's say going to Chicago, that's the president has a constitutional authority to do that, whether he should or not. When you start moving into the National Guard and then military troops, you know, military troops especially, not allowed for crime control, just not allowed. So, again, there's a bit of a sliding scale there, and we will see after Los Angeles, whether the White House cares to violate the law so openly and blatantly again. So President Trump told NBC News yesterday that he will attend the meeting tomorrow called by Defense Secretary Pete Hexeth, gathering hundreds of top military officers in Quantico, Virginia. Trump described it as an event to boost group spirit. The President's top brass were not given details ahead of time. Though officials say Hegseth wants to highlight military accomplishments and his vision for the Defense Department.

He talks a lot about Joey, warrior ethos. Yeah, General, that must be rich coming from Pete Hagseth to generals and admirals who have fought, risked their lives, served in uniform in war, for decades now. Some of them for decades, and they're going to get a lecture on warrior spirit. Tell me, again, you express your concerns on Friday. I'm curious, what are your thoughts about taking our top generals and admirals from their post across the globe? to come get a rah-rah speech. This is going to prove how adaptable the military commanders are, Joe.

You know, this thing started out as an attempt to talk about the warrior spirit, the warrior ethos, I'm sorry. The warrior ethos is just one part of the professional triad that the military has. You have the oath to the Constitution, the services values, I can still name the Army values, loyalty, duty, respect, selfless service, integrity, honor and personal courage. All services have that. And then the word of ethos is just a performative method of actualizing that. Well, it started out that way. And then it became, well, no, there was an announcement that someone in the Pentagon said this was all about getting the horses into the

stable and whipping them into shape. That's insulting and condescending, talking to a bunch of individuals who have had 30 and 40 years worth of service the last 20 years being in combat. But now it appears the president is going to show up and talk to them as well. And that's probably because this event has become such a lightning rod over its staggering cost, the security risk of bringing so many people into one place, and the disruption of ongoing operations. So the president will talk. We have seen the president talk at several military functions. First, there was the Fort Bragg function, which is embarrassing to the army the way those soldiers active. I then attended personally the West Point graduation, and the cadets were told as they were

sitting on the parade field, getting ready to get their diplomas, that they better keep a poker face and remember their professional activities. What we're going to see today, after the UN speech that the president give, or I'm sorry, tomorrow, after the UN speech, which was a little bit unplugged, I don't know what he's going to say to this audience, but they have to be adaptable again, put on a stoic face, have a poker face, not show any emotion, but I'm sure, depending on what the president says, what Secretary Defense Hex has said, it may cause certainly some emotional reaction from the crowd, but they've got to remain professional because that's what the military is. They are the force for the country, and there's an attempt to not only use

them in these actions like we were talking about earlier, but also the potential whipping them into shape in this meeting that they're having in Guantago tomorrow. Retired U.S. Army Lieutenant General Mark Hurdling. And the Washington Posts, David Ignatius, thank you both very much for coming on this morning. And coming up, Mike Lupica joins us to talk about the highs and lows of the Rider Cup, including some bad behavior from fans towards one of the world's best call first. Plus, Pablo Tori is here to discuss. MLB playoffs and week four of the NFL season. Morning, Joe is coming right back. How are your

picks doing? Good. Mine are good. And Shane Lowry has done it. Europe pulls off one of the biggest upsets on U.S. soil, retains the Rider Cup. Europe continued its dominance over the United States and Gulf's Ryder Cup, despite pretty extraordinary Sunday. Shane Lowry's put on the 18th hole give the Europeans the win, surviving a furious comeback. It would have been a historic comeback by the Americans. Europe's now won 11 of the last 14 Rider Cup. and five of the last 10 that were played in the United States.

But what most people are talking about today was not the play on the course throughout the weekend. Instead, the fan's horrific behavior. Several times people shouted at Rory Macquarie as he lined up to swing or putt. On Saturday, cameras captured one particularly intense exchange between McElroy and the spectators who were attacking him and his wife. I'm amazing you get-a-get-which. Oh, my goodness. Wow. The first sign of the crowd getting to Rory.

They've been after him all day. Show the shot. All right, well, I wanted them to show the shot. I'd ask him to show this shot that Rory did because Rory answered to them heckling his wife, shouting insults about his wife and him, the mother of his children, by putting this shot within a few feet of the hole. So at the end of the day, it ends up insulting one of the world's best golfers and attacking his family while he's trying to do his job on the golf course.

Not a smart move. The number two ranked player in the world was relentlessly heckled over five matches at Beth Page Black about his personal life, his golf career, and his wife. Macaroy called it unacceptable. and abusive behavior. Let's bring your best-selling author and a long-time columnist, Mike Lubka. Mike, you and I have been talking about how excited we were for months about the writer company being played. And I think my favorite course, other than my accommodate, of course. My favorite course, Beth Page Black. It's an extraordinary course. I love everything about

it. Everything about the course layout, about its history, about how people used to line up at 2 o'clock in the morning with the headlights on to try to get in line to play on this public course. And I cannot believe that the Ryder Cup at Beth Page Black will be remembered for U.S. spectators throwing beer on one of the world's best golfer's wife attacking her while he's trying, here you go. They're walking down to hug teammates. The wife gets beer thrown at her. Right. And, I mean, it's, Mike, I've never seen anything like this before. And the fact that it happened at Beth Page Black, the fact that U.S. spectators were so abusive to our European guests, it's just a disgrace. Joe, we ought to be talking about the comeback today. We ought to be talking about what a bit, one of the great sports moments in the, in the history of the Ryder Cup, if the United States had come up all.

way back. And what we're talking about is a weekend when enough dopes in that crowd turned the whole thing into stupid bill. And Joe, I wrote about this twice in the run up to this. This was my great fear where all the media people say, oh, we need chaos. Colin Morcarus said we won half a point, by the way. So we need chaos on Friday. Okay, they got it. And Shane Lowry, who is a gent and a champ, and you saw him act like a little kid when he made that put yesterday said the level of abuse directed at Rory McElroy's

white he described as being astonishing. Yeah, Beth Page Black Beth Page Black Eye for this country's crowd. And again, there were 50,000 people on the grounds. You have to constantly say they weren't all

acting like that. But enough of them were that that's going to be the thing. As much as the U.S. comeback, as much as the way the Europeans came here and won this kind of road game and somehow golf has to put the genie

back in the bottle before this thing goes back to Ireland in a couple of years and say, no, this is not the way it's supposed to be. We, we, you guys are in the barrel. Hey, Mike, you know what would help? You know what would really help a life? Maybe,

Mike, maybe if the PGA condemned it, maybe if more players condemned it, maybe if the captain of the U.S. team condemned it, and so they're just being rowdy. I do want to give a hat tip though that Justin Thomas, who was constantly trying to quiet the American crowd. He was constantly trying to keep them in line. Can I say, come on, we're playing golf here.

This isn't like WWF. We're playing golf. Let a guy do his back swing. without hearing you curse and abuse him and his wife and his family. I hadn't seen the beer throwing thing until yesterday. And was as horrified by that as anything that I saw. And yes, Justin Thomas did everything he could. And on the other hand, you know, he's trying to pump the crowd up.

You know, Joe, I kept here a whole weekend that Bryson de Chambl, who was like the head of the pep squad for the U.S. team, how he was made for this event. because he's a tough guy. Well, he won a point and a half this weekend. And friends of mine kept calling me up across the weekend and said, how about less pumping up of the crowd and more putting the little white ball into the hole?

Because these people, Joe, I think you saw I tweeted this over the weekend, okay? It's hard to get Ryder Cup tickets. I've been to Beth Page Black to cover the U.S. Open. It's hard to get there. And so they get there, and what do they think? I'm thinking, how can I best enhance my fan experience? Oh, I know. I'll curse out Rory McElroy in his way.

I know it's insane, and you are right. It seems that a lot of people that were, like, leading the pep squad on the American team, they would have done a lot better to keep their blanking head down and focus on golf, because a lot of them sucked. A lot of them sucked because they were so interested in trying to be macho. and strut around the golf course like a bandy rooster, and then they end up failing. I want to say one positive thing.

We've already talked with Justin Thomas Good for him. I do want to say, though, something that struck me about the world's greatest player, Scotty Schaeffler. And usually this would be seen as a negative. I actually saw it as really heartwarming on how much this meant to Scotty. You and I have seen Scotty, whether it's at the Masters, whether it's at the British Open, whether it's the U.S.

I, the guy, he hits it pin high and then sings it for a birdie, right? Scotty couldn't do that this weekend. And instead of me going, oh, what a choke artist, what I thought was, I know Scotty can do this. He's a world's best golfer. I've rarely seen somebody be able to, you know, sink as many birdies as this guy sinks. He couldn't do it.

And what I thought after about the fourth, fifth, sixth, miss putt is, my God, it is great to see how much this means to him. I know there are going to be rider cups in the future where that guy is going to tear it apart. He's had a couple of tough ones. But it was actually kind of neat to me that the world's best golfer cared so much about playing for his country, that everything got a little tougher for him. And I don't see that as bad. I see sports as a character-building experience, and I love seeing Scotty care so much about

this. He'll get him next time. I think we all know that. You know, Joe, it's the old line about adversity doesn't build character. It reveals it. And it did. And I was happy he got a point yesterday. I was wishing that the Rory Scottie match had been more meaningful. But it was meaningful enough to both of them. And you could see how much as gassed as they both were, how they enjoyed the competition. And when Scotty's voice broke afterwards, that was an incredibly human moment. And my favorite line of the whole weekend was at the Europeans press conference afterwards when Justin Rose said, it's all about the badge and the boys. This event matters, and that's why it shouldn't be shamed by a bunch of Yahoo's in the crowd.

No. Columnist and bestselling author, Mike Lupica, thank you very much. And coming up on Morning Joe, Moore Sports, Pablo Tori, will join us on the MLB and NFL. To get that right, yes, still ahead. We'll go through the latest on the looming government shutdown ahead of President Trump's planned meeting today with Democratic leaders. The deadline is tomorrow night. We're back in two minutes.