Morning Joe - Texas flooding kills at least 104, including Camp Mystic counselors and campers

Episode Date: July 8, 2025

At least 104 people are dead across six counties. In Kerr County, officials reported 84 deaths — those of 56 adults and 28 children.

I need to tell my community and those families who are waiting, this will be a rough week. Primary search continues and we remain hopeful every foot, every mile, every bend of the river. The mayor of Kerrville, Texas, speaking to his community yesterday in the wake of the devastating flash flooding that swept through the region. We're going to go through live to the hard-hit area as the death toll continues to rise and questions mount about the warning systems there. Plus, President Trump welcomes Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to the White House.

We'll look at whether progress was made toward a ceasefire agreement in Gaza. And the Trump administration is facing backlash this morning after a DOJ and FBI investigation found convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein did not have a client list. We'll go through the right-wing anger toward the Attorney General on that. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It's Tuesday, July 8th, with Joe, Willie and me here.

And we start, Willie, this morning with the latest out of Central Texas. Yeah, good morning, guys. The death toll, as you mentioned, Mika, from those devastating floods now has risen to more than 100 people across six counties. The majority of those killed in storm-ravaged Kerr County, where local officials say 28 children are among the dead. That county is where Camp Mystic is located, a beloved nearly century-old summer camp for girls.

Camp officials yesterday say they're grieving the loss of 27 campers and counselors following the catastrophic flooding on the Guadalupe River. Ten girls and one counselor from the camp still missing this morning. We're learning more as well about some of the victims of the deadly storm that swept through parts of the state. Blair and Brook Harbor, just 11 and 13 years old, were vacationing with their family in Hunt, Texas, camping when pounding rain and floodwater ripped through the area. When rescuers recovered their bodies on Saturday, the sisters were found with their hands locked

together. That's according to a relative. Four days out now from those raging floods, rescue crews still not giving up on the search for survivors, continuing to comb through the region in their search. But more rain is expected in central Texas over the coming days. The National Weather Service extended some riverside flood watches and warnings through Thursday telling residents to remain vigilant. And as some officials in Texas continue to criticize the National Weather Service in

the aftermath of the fatal floods, an investigation by NBC Dallas-Fort Worth found the agency first issued a warning 12 hours ahead of the surging waters. Troy Kimmel, an Austin-based meteorologist and emergency manager, told NBC he believes the Weather Service issued timely alerts with the best information available. The question remains, did those alerts reach the people who needed them the most? Hard-hit Kerr County does not have a weather siren system, in part because some local officials felt it was too expensive to install. The Weather Service says it added keywords to a late-night warning to automatically trigger wireless alerts on cell phones and weather radios in the area. But at Camp Mystic,

where cell phones were not allowed or in other rural areas of the county with limited service, many may not have received the alerts at all. Meanwhile, Juan, Texas town had something its nearby neighbors did not have. Comfort, Texas recently updated its disaster alert system, installing a new siren in the volunteer fire department's headquarters and moving the old one to a low-lying area of town. Friday was the first time using the new two-tiered siren system. Officials say no one in comfort died as a result of the floods, and perhaps, Willie,

it was the sirens. Yeah, it may have been, especially since we're talking about something that happened in the middle of the night when people are sleeping and maybe not hearing an alert or seeing one on their phone. Let's go to Texas, where we find NBC News senior national correspondent Jay Gray. He is in Kerrville this morning. Jay, what's the latest there? Good morning, Willie, Mika, Joe.

Let's start with that search, the rescue and the recovery. It is still going on around the clock here. Hundreds of first responders on the ground and in the air. We're several hours away from sunrise here, and we've already seen multiple choppers overhead using night vision. As you talk about, more than a hundred have died as a result of the storms here. That number expected to grow. And officials, for the first time acknowledging

they're not really sure how many are missing at this point, saying, and I'm quoting here, it's a lot, dozens still missing as that search continues. I want to give you a look at some of the devastation left behind by these floodwaters. The family, an elderly couple and their daughter who were in this home did manage to get out as the water rushed in, mud, coating mud coating everything inside so they pulled what they can

outside and this is a scene replaying along the Guadalupe River right now a lot of people trying to salvage anything they can from this wreckage and really the pieces of so many lives scattered not only in the front and backyards of these homes but for miles picked up by the water and and pulled away and this is a process uh... that's going to continue for quite some time uh... they're again trying to find anything they can in this wreckage and when you look at all of this

you you get a picture of what's going on here, and it really is hard to rationalize when these families are telling you with all that's been lost here, they're the lucky ones, but the perspective is real. They've seen what's been lost here, and they are struggling right now, grieving, as they begin to make the turn towards some type of recovery that's going to be difficult. They're going to need some help guys. Jay, so many of these stories have touched the country, specifically the ones coming out of Camp Mystic, that beloved summer camp for girls down on the banks of the river. We know that the director of the camp, the long-time director of the camp, Dick Eastland, died trying to save some of these girls was swept away as well.

What more do we know coming out of the camp about numbers and who they may still be looking for? Yeah, we know that at least 10 campers as well as a counselor are still missing and so that's something that they are focused on here. And Willie, you make a great point that caps really man institution not only here in the hill country but across texas so many people uh... have uh... gone to that campus a hundred years old

and a lot of those who have been a part of the camp are returning their volunteering and trying to help in doing what they can not only to help with the cleanup, with the recovery, and with the camp itself, but with so many who survive there and trying to help them as they come to grips with what's happened and try to figure out how they're going to move forward. You know, Jay, obviously whenever a hurricane's hit or or any storms hit, there are always the questions that we're hearing now.

I mean, sort of questions. What did the government do? How could they have done it better? I certainly heard it on the ground for Katrina asking those questions about a Republican president, Democratic governor, Democratic mayor. We heard it last year with Hurricane Helene and FEMA's response. I know you're on the ground day in, day out, talking to residents, talking to local officials, talking to health care workers.

What are you hearing? What are the biggest questions right now that are arising in these first tragic days afterwards? What could government on all levels have done better? Yeah, and Joe, I think you make some great points there. It is a frustration for so many here that there was not some type of warning system in place that they did not have sirens, even though it was looked into by the council here and by so many across Kirk County. It just wasn't something they decided to do and so that's a very frustrating in light

of all that's been lost i have to be frank while they do talk about that and and while they do want to find answers for how to move forward i don't think for the most part the people here in the strike zone are focused on finding fault right now. They're way too busy. They've got to clean up areas like this. They've got to bury those who've been recovered, lost, and they've got to try and find those

that are still missing. And so it's definitely an issue. It's definitely a problem. And there are questions about how the warning system worked and with areas that don't have cell service or where it's sketchy at best, there's got to be a better answer to all of this. But I'm going to be real honest, right now, that's not the primary focus. Of course not. NBC News Senior National Correspondent Jay Gray, reporting live this morning from Kerrville, Texas.

Thank you so much. We greatly appreciate it as always. And, you know, Willie, those questions do come. They should come. But as Jay said, right now, we're in the middle of an active search. I will say the thing that seems to stand out the most right now, obviously, is the decision not to spend about $50,000 on an early warning system for the area most grievously hit just because they believe $50,000 was too expensive.

Yeah. There are a lot of those stories coming out in the details about warnings given or not given to the people camping on the banks of this river, to those sweet girls and the staff at Camp Mystic, those questions will all be asked and investigated and perhaps some things will change because of it. But I'm sure you too, Joe, have heard personal stories from people the way I have too. We've got friends in Dallas and Houston and all over the place who either had kids there or kids who used to go there or they were counselors there and what a special place this was and how devastating obviously

this is to the families who've lost children, those holding out some hope that their child may be found somehow, some way all these days later now. It's just devastating and truly, truly heartbreaking. NBC News nightly news anchor, Tom Yamas, is down in central Texas and has more now on the lives lost and some of the remarkable stories of survival there. Battling the heat, mud and misery,

they're looking for any signs of life. Search and rescue teams on the Guadalupe River, furiously combing through massive mountains of debris. We're in the middle of the river right now and just behind me you can see why this search and recovery is so complicated. There are mounds of this mangled steel and tree branches and tree trunks. This team is trying to figure out a way inside to see what if anything or anyone is still trapped. An all-out search for by water, air, and horseback. All over this area, you see homes and trailers and RVs

with this giant orange X. It means they've been searched. We hope whoever lived in here got out, because you can see what the river water did to this, flipping this entire RV over, destroying everything inside. Volunteer firefighter Wyatt Kelly has been at this for days. What kind of things you see out here. Unthinkable things this things that no one ever thought they've

seen in their lifetime. So many people were in their beds fast asleep when the floodwaters began to rapidly rise early on the 4th of July. The catastrophic flooding killing at least 104 people in 6 counties, including Julian Ryan, who was with his mother, kids and wife Christina in their trailer home as the water began to rise. My husband started panicking because there was no way for us to get out. There was no way for us to get up. And so he tried to bust out the window. Slices arm almost off Christina says he quickly began to bleed

out. What do you remember I'm so sorry you had to get to see your son go through that. It is remember holding him. So he would get swept to the flood. Going everywhere. And that's where it's too early. But going everywhere, his last words to me was, Mom, I love you. And you make sure you tell everybody else I love you.

Love them. Tragedy also playing out at Camp Mystic, which says 27 of its campers and counselors are among the dead and missing. Hallie Thompson's 10-year-old daughter somehow managed to escape from her cabin. My daughter grabbed onto a tree and grabbed the hand of her friend and put it on the tree. And so one by one, those girls came out and found anything they could cling to. Hallie and four other family members were nearby.

Their cabin was also surrounded by water. She says their neighbors saved their lives. Feels wrong or strange to feel how grateful that I am that we're all alive while we are still waiting for word about friends, daughters and while we have received word of the prince daughters. You've died. Lila Bonner Sarah Marsh, Janey hunt. Eloise pack and twins Hannah and Rebecca Lawrence just some of the young campers whose lives were cut tragically short.

Kellyanne LaTall is still missing. Her dad posting this video of her solo at a Christmas pageant asking prayers for a miracle. You can see the floods devastating toll on the century-old all girls camp in these images look at how high the water came into the cabin the flood waters tossing muddy mattresses from bunk beds. This pink trunk with the name L flipped on its side. A stuffed animal left behind. A camp nurse posting this haunting video of some of the little girls singing as they evacuated. The Fourth of July holiday brought many families

to the cabins that dot the river's edge. We don't know everybody who was here. So we don't know everybody who's missing. Could be even worse, you're saying? Yeah, it will be worse. Because we don't know everybody who's missing. Joe Herring Jr. is the mayor of Kerrville. Took me completely by surprise. I'm sad to say I didn't know. If there was any way

on God's green earth that we could have warned people, we would have done it. But we did not know. 13-year-old Blair Harbor and 11-year-old sister Brooke were there spending the holiday in a cabin with their parents and grandparents. Their bodies were found 15 miles down the river together their school wrote a quote powerful symbol of their lasting bond. Their parents survived but their grandparents are still missing. Amid the heartbreaking loss of life there are also remarkable

stories of survival. After this woman was swept 20 miles down the river, she clung to a tree for hours until rescuers and boats were able to come and save her. In Hunt, Texas, Diana Smith says she woke up to find her house surrounded by water, open the front door and it sweeps both my dog's different directions. And I'm panicking, thinking now what the hell am I going to do? She says she called 911, but no one came. I said a prayer when I was standing on my porch. Both my parents are deceased and I said mom, dad, God help. She managed to jump into a kayak

with her dogs paddling to safety. 11 year old Kaylin Cubina was at Camp Lajunta six miles from Camp Mystic. We looked outside and we just saw like an ocean out there. It's just like completely destroying everything. There's people in it. Oh my God, there's so many people in it. This cabin appeared to float away in the floodwaters. Still, the camp says everyone was able to evacuate to safety. We saw like a whole cabin just floating down

and that's when we knew like things were getting actually real out there like we were starting to realize that this was a real natural disaster crisis. We were with the Alvarado family as the reality set in. Their two daughters were in this RV when the river surrounded them. These are the images of what they saw outside of their windows. We couldn't see through the water but we could see the currents moving and it just kept going. There was no end to it. Their dad came to their rescue along with a neighbor, pulling the girls to safety.

Brooke, the oldest of the two, looking down at the river and realizing how some girls just like her weren't as lucky. When you guys heard about all the people that didn't make it, I mean, what was that like? I mean, to know that you were right here. Um, it hurt. I'm sorry. It just sucks that a lot of people just lost their lives, but it's really good to hear about the people that are getting out and stuff.

NBC Nightly News anchor Tom Yamas reporting there from central Texas, and there is more rain on the way this week. Let's go over to meteorologist Michelle Grossman for more on that. Michelle, good morning. Good morning, Willie. And I can't even imagine what even one drop of rain is too much right now. Taking a look at these scenes, you can see the power of rain, how powerful it is. It's nearly impossible to outrun this wall of water

that they dealt with. All these campers with all the debris that they're dealing with today with a rescue and recovery. And we're gonna go into the forecast over the next couple of days. Let's start with the good news. Right now we're looking at radar. This is a three hour loop.

We have a little storm system and that's dissipating near Lubbock, but much, much better. So if you're looking at radar. This is a three hour loop. We have a little storm system and that's dissipating near Lubbock, but much, much better. So if you're looking across central Texas, we're looking good this morning. That is good news. As Jay mentioned earlier, we're looking at the helicopters

and the rescue missions are going on right now. So that's good with the dry weather. But as we go throughout time here, we're gonna be much drier than we have in the past few days. Even yesterday, we had a flood watch that was dropped as of last evening, but still we could see some thunderstorms. So as we go throughout time here, you notice they pop in.

It is very difficult to pinpoint where these showers are going to pop up. Now, most of the activity will be east of the hard hit areas, will be north of the hard hit areas, but it's still possible that we could see some heavy downpours around the hard hit areas. So isolated to widely scattered storms developing, downpours could see some heavy downpours around the hard hit areas. So isolated to widely scattered storms developing downpours could create some flooding because there's so much moisture in the air. We're still dealing with what's left over from a tropical system. Any of these downpours would be like a sponge just squeezing 2 to 3 inches very, very quickly. We are so

saturated obviously from spots, some spots saying 20 inches of rain that even a little bit will cause some flooding the rivers and creeks and streams. Then as we go throughout time, unfortunately we're to see more pop-up storms on Wednesday again where you see those darker colors that's where we could see some really heavy rain. Back to you. Alright meteorologist Michelle Grossman, thank you so much and we're gonna of course come back to this with the latest information throughout our four hours. Also still ahead on Joe, we'll have the latest on the negotiations for a ceasefire in Gaza, following yesterday's meeting between President Trump and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu

at the White House, plus the new show of support for Ukraine from the White House. And a reminder that the Morning Joe podcast is available each weekday, featuring our full conversations and analysis. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back. Welcome back. Twenty-two past the hour. President Trump said peace talks between Israel and Hamas have been, quote, going along very

well as he hosted Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu at the White House yesterday. Without offering specifics, Trump said Hamas wants to meet and that the terrorist group wants a ceasefire in Gaza. He made the comments to reporters during a dinner in the White House Blue Room last night with Netanyahu. He also confirmed the U.S. has scheduled talks with Iran, but did not elaborate on when those would be. His remarks came just moments after Israel's prime minister handed President Trump a document

announcing that Israel had nominated him for the Nobel Peace Prize. Later on, there was another notable exchange when both Trump and Netanyahu discussed their thoughts regarding the day after in Gaza. Mr. President, is your Palestinian relocation plan still on the table? Is there a plan to have any progress in finding a country? Bibi, why don't I let you answer that question? Mr. President? Wait a minute, wait, he's got to answer the question. I think President Trump had a brilliant vision.

It's called free choice. You know, if people want to stay, they can stay. But if they want to leave, they should be able to leave. It shouldn't be a prison. It should be an open place and give people free choice. We're working with the United States very closely about finding countries that will seek to realize what they always say, that they want

to give the Palestinians a better future. And those who, and I think we're getting close to finding several countries, and I think this will give, again, the freedom to choose. Palestinians should have it. And I hope that we can secure it. This morning Netanyahu is set to meet with the majority and minority leaders in the U.S. Senate, as well as House Speaker Mike Johnson. Let's bring in right now the co-host of our fourth hour, contributing writer at The Atlantic,

Jonathan Lemire, MSNBC contributor Mike Barnicle, and President of the Council on Foreign Relations Richard Haas. Richard is the author of the weekly newsletter, Home and Away, available on Substack. We have bigger things to discuss about yesterday's meeting, Richard, but why don't we begin with Bibi Netanyahu's preposterous statement that other neighbors of Israel and Gaza want more Palestinians in their homeland. I know you've spoken with Arab leaders and ambassadors and diplomats across the region, and the appetite, at least with those leaders in the region that I've talked to is non-existent. And the idea that somehow the answer to the Palestinian problem is pushing Palestinians

off of land they have considered their own for thousands of years seems at best to be a non-starter. What do you say? Well, it's interesting. The prime minister of Israel, Joe, talked about giving Palestinians the freedom of choice. I didn't see on his menu the idea of a Palestinian state. So look, you've got two million Palestinians in Gaza, three more million in the West Bank. And the idea that you're going to find homes for them outside of these areas, I think,

is fanciful. There's a word for this. It's called transfer. It's long been a deeply held hope for particularly right-wing Israelis who want to settle or even annex these areas. So I think other than a tiny number of Palestinians who might make their way to Egypt or something, the idea that this is, quote unquote, a solution to the Palestinian issue is is again, it's simply drilling a dry hole. It's not a serious proposition.

No, it's not serious. And you can't talk about peace in the Middle East without talking about the two-state solution and people that claim you can have their heads stuck in the sand and history will always come back. They cannot escape the history that they keep trying to escape. Richard, I also want to ask you, it's very frustrating trying to cover the news and trying to get sources on the ground in Gaza and in the West Bank at times because the IDF does not allow reporters in certain areas and yet we keep

hearing reports of mass casualties among Gazan citizens, obviously in the West Bank. Just again, the humanitarian crisis there for a lot of Palestinians seem to be growing by the day. What's your best knowledge? Give us your best insights on the humanitarian crisis that continues to unfold in Gaza, the humanitarian crisis that continues to unfold the West Bank for Palestinians, and the fact that Israel's leader seems to be moving further and further away from any thought at any time for a two-state solution

sure i think it's important to maybe distinguish between what i would call the humanitarian crisis in gaza you've got two million people who long before october seventh were already the most densely populated piece of real estate one could find probably in the world now these people are living on a slice of gaza densely populated piece of real estate one could find probably in the world. Now these people are living on a slice of Gaza. There's inadequate food and medicine amidst the overcrowding, plus more than 50,000 people in Gaza, the majority of whom were not members of Hamas, have been killed.

So that is a humanitarian crisis by any and every definition. And again, given our previous conversation, there's still not on the table a viable or serious plan for ending the war beyond the ceasefire talks and for a long-term approach to Gaza. I would say in the West Bank, where again you've got a majority of the Palestinians there, I would say it's less a humanitarian crisis than a political crisis. Just the other month Israel green-lighted 22 new settlements. We're seeing also growing violence between the more than 500,000 Israeli settlers, that community, and Palestinians. And what we're seeing essentially is the breakdown of any type of peaceful coexistence between

the two. Yeah, the idea of a Palestinian state, almost to paraphrase Churchill, it's the worst idea except for all the others. It's not a viable idea anytime soon, given October 7th, given the politics on both sides, the lack of Palestinian leadership that's declared its willingness to live peacefully for Israel. But it's important to keep open the possibility. And what I think U.S. policy has to be here to say is we support moving in this direction.

Here's the criteria we are, or the conditions the Palestinians have to sign up to. Here's what we expect of the Israelis in the meantime, not to foreclose the possibility by more settlements and annexation and the like. And I don't see us doing that. I don't see us pushing hard enough for, again, not to create this tomorrow, but to lay out the vision and lay out again, here's the conditions the Palestinians would have to meet for us to get behind them, and here's in the meantime what the Israelis can and cannot do. And that's missing from U.S. policy. Right.

Well, and Willie, Richard brings up such a great point. Right now, there's certainly no appetite among the Israeli people post-October 7th for a two-state solution. But as Richard said, it's something that you look at down the road. It's just like balancing the budget is not going to be possible for the next five, six, seven, eight years. At the same time, just the next Congress that comes in, let's pray to God that they'll actually worry about children and grandchildren and the mass of death that's piling up. Just like let's hope that there will be some leaders in the Middle East and in the White House

that can move us toward an eventual two-state solution. Not going to happen anytime soon, but you're either moving closer to that every day or moving further away from that every day. And right now, we're moving further away from that every day. Absolutely. The two-state solution definitely was not in the air at that dinner last night. That is not what they were discussing. Jonathan Lemire, Prime Minister Netanyahu, clearly knows Donald Trump very well. Giving him that resolution nominating him for the Nobel

Peace Prize, he says, for his efforts across the Middle East. Talking about Israel and Gaza, but also Iran, where for now anyway the ceasefire after the United States bomb those three nuclear sites has held. What more do we learn about that yesterday between these two? I think it's also really telling the update to their relationship where Trump and Netanyahu were very close during Trump's first time in office. There had been a splintering in recent months. Trump was very unhappy with the prime minister a number of ways. And yet this Iran strike seems to have brought them back together. Certainly, as you say, the prime minister knows the way to Donald Trump's heart right now.

The president, openly lusting for a Nobel Peace Prize, has been talking about it repeatedly how he wants one. He feels like he's been owed one. It irks him that Obama got one so early in his term. Netanyahu flattering Trump here. We also had Trump a few days ago on social media say that the criminal case against Netanyahu in Israel should be dropped. It's a distraction at this time around.

We didn't learn much Richard on Iran yesterday. I say talks or Iran wants to talk to the US is what the president said. Didn't reveal much in the way of details, but I think the situation with Iran is linked to the Trump Netanyahu relationship. What do you see there? Where clearly Netanyahu was the aggressor here? He thought this is the time to strike Iran. President Trump eventually got there, went along with it. What do you see there being a potential fracturing of the relationship between the two men if Netanyahu wants to press further with Tehran than Trump might be willing to do?

I think there is some potential friction there. One is the Israelis have been talking about what I think is probably a non-starter, which is regime change. The Americans say they don't want part of that. And again, I don't think it's viable. The real question is, let's just, despite what the president said, Iranian nuclear materials, Iranian nuclear equipment like centrifuges survived. Some survived the bombing on the three sites. Others weren't there to begin with.

So by definition, they avoided the attacks. The question is, what do you do about those? And I think the United States is interested in at least exploring diplomacy there, Jonathan. I don't think the Israelis have any enthusiasm for that. I think their approach is more any time you get new intelligence, that there's a centrifuge or there's some enriched uranium, you give the Iranians a deadline, an ultimatum, and then you attack it. Essentially, an open-ended version of what we had during those 12 days. So quite possibly down the road, you'll see the United States and Israel not seeing quite

eye to eye on how to deal with what I think will be the lingering, continuing Iranian nuclear threat. Richard, we are incredibly just three months short of the second anniversary of October 7th. Three months from now, it'll be two years. How is it that the hostages have still not been released? You're good to remind people of that. Two reasons.

One is Hamas, one is Israel. Hamas doesn't want to give up the hostages. They see them as their bargaining chip. The fact that these talks are going on, Mike. Again, this is what Hamas has to essentially leverage Israel. So they're holding onto, what, 20 living hostages. I don't know how many bodies of people who are now dead. And then for the Israelis, it simply

hasn't been a priority for this government. People forget, but there was a three-stage Israeli Hamas peace deal. In the second stage, you would have had the complete return of all the hostages. Israel didn't want to go ahead with it. Why? Because they didn't want to stop the war in Hamas, and they didn't want to withdraw their forces from Gaza. So it is a consideration for this Israeli government, but let's be blunt.

It has not been the chief priority. So the hostages have been caught, quite honestly, between the larger friction, call it what you will, between Hamas and Israel and it's tragic. They are paying a price that is really impossible even for us sitting around a table to imagine. Yeah, President Trump also was asked yesterday about Russia and Ukraine as the Russians continue to launch missiles and drones into Ukrainian territory. 71 people were hurt in Kharkiv yesterday when drone strikes targeted apartment buildings, a kindergarten, and the regional draft office, that's according to local officials. President Trump asked

yesterday about America's military support for Ukraine. primarily, but they're getting hit very, very hard. So many people are dying in that mess. I'm not happy with President Putin at all, but this is something that would have never happened if I were president. I'm disappointed, frankly, that President Putin hasn't stopped. I'm not happy about it either. Jonathan Amir, you've written The Atlantic about the ongoing relationship between Donald

Trump, Vladimir Putin, a piece you wrote several weeks ago, talked about how that relationship, one that Donald Trump had hoped to be far closer than past relationships between American presidents and leaders of Russia, you talked about how it was fraying at the edges. We saw more of that yesterday. I guess, first of all, tell us what your reporting is on the president's support for new weaponry for Ukraine, but also where you sense this relationship is going and how frayed that relationship is. And, well, how long is the fuse? How long will Donald Trump continue to allow Vladimir Putin to basically mock him publicly

before really pushing back hard? To this point, it's been a very slow-burning fuse. The president has certainly shown more moments of public frustration, and I've reported private ones as well, about Vladimir Putin, who is not only not stopping the war in Ukraine, but is only ratcheting it up. The pace of his attacks, his drone attacks, missile attacks on Ukrainian cities targeting civilians, has only increased in recent weeks. President Trump has still been reluctant to really punish Moscow.

He has not supported the really aggressive sanctions bill that's now sitting idly by in the Senate. But he does want the war to end. The question is, when will he take the next step to actually try to stop it, to put pressure on Russia to say, look, it is no longer interest to conduct this war. He hasn't pulled that lever. So Jonathan, can I ask you, is that lever the sanctions bill, the bipartisan sanctions bill, is that what the president's ultimately waiting for?

If Putin just refuses to engage seriously, is that the president's lever, that sanctions bill again that has bipartisan support. There are two, I am told. That is number one, and that would probably be choice A. He has not been willing to commit to it though. The second would be to actually not just sustain, but increase the amount of American help to Ukraine in terms of weapons and the like. We saw yesterday sort of a dizzying about face there from this administration. A couple of days ago, we had DOD pause weapons shipments to Ukraine from Defense Secretary Hegseth, a call from him Richard.

President Trump then saying, no, no, we want to continue it. And late last night, DOD did announce that they'll be sending more. I am told that they'd rather outsource this. They'd rather have European partners step up with defensive missiles, even like the Germans buying Patriot batteries from the US, then ship them to Ukraine, than a direct assist. So this is the question here is, to Joe's point, is there a moment where do you see a moment coming? People you've talked to in the community where President Trump might actually get tough with Putin. And what would that look like? We've been waiting for it for the entire first term. We're now been waiting for it for these months. Yesterday was a rare piece, a sliver of good news.

Look, the devil will be in the details. What kind of arms, how much of arms, for how long. I find it hard. It's not just this pro-Russian position, which remains inexplicable, but the animosity towards Zelensky in Ukraine has not dissipated. Let's be honest. What's so odd about this, Jonathan, is President Trump had a big idea that I think was right, that there was an opportunity for peace.

And what it required was, one, putting pressure on Putin, but two, disabusing or speaking tough love to Ukraine, saying, look, your definition of success can't be to liberate Crimea and all your territory. That's simply not realistic. But we'll give you enough help to defend yourself. And the administration hasn't been willing to do that. If they're finally willing to help Ukraine seriously and put pressure on Russia through sanctions and arming Ukraine, then actually, I think President Trump could get closer to

this goal he wants, which is peace in Europe. I don't think it's fanciful to get there, but right now there's a total inconsistency between his policy and his goals, and he's got to narrow or eliminate that inconsistency. And if he does that, his diplomats will have a chance. All right. President Emeritus of the Council on Foreign Relations, Richard Haass, thank you as always for coming on the show this morning. And still ahead, Attorney General Pam Bondi is coming under a wave of criticism from the

far right after a recent government memo appears to contradict statements she made about Jeffrey Epstein. We'll dig into that story when Morning Joe returns. The DB releasing the list of Jeffrey Epstein's clients? Will that really happen? It's sitting on my desk right now to review. That's been a directive by President Trump on reviewing that. That was Attorney General Pam Bondi in February of this year saying she had the client list of convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein, quote, on her desk.

But that comment now clashes with a report this week from the DOJ and FBI, which stated there was no client list and Epstein did not blackmail the people who took part in his crimes. The conflicting stories have led to backlash from many on the right who had demanded some kind of a bombshell revelation in the Epstein case. Let's bring in NBC News National Law Enforcement enforcement and intelligence correspondent Tom Winter. Tom, good morning. You've been following this story, the Epstein story, for many many years but this piece of it is fascinating because it proves in the

case of perhaps the FBI director and his deputy it's a lot easier to cut a lot of bombs and promote conspiracy theories from the outside than once you get on the inside and you have the facts in front of you, obviously disappointing a lot of people in their circle. Yeah. And so the big question here is how did this idea of Epstein having a client list ever get started? Because it's never been based in evidence or fact. I've never come on here.

In the decade plus I've been covering Epstein and the probably dozen times that I've been on this set speaking to you all about a development in the case or investigation and said and by the way breaking news this morning there's an there's a client list involving Jeffrey Epstein and here's all the people that are on it. Has it been rumored about that that there could have been other people that Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell convicted by the way sitting in prison that they could have involved in their sex or involved with other individuals that they brought into it there have been rumors of that

but certainly nothing along the lines that we've heard about then we hear about 150 names have been redacted in the course of civil proceedings and everybody said well there's the list well those are names that were brought up in the course of a deposition if somebody was going to depose you and say well you know on the morning of July 7th, was Tom Winter on set? Yes. Well, my name would be redacted in that normal setting because I'm not a party to the lawsuit. But then people assume that those names are redacted because those names are on a list.

Again, not based in evidence or fact. So we get this memo yesterday that comes out without a date. There's no signature on the back of it. Nobody signed off on it. We hear about teams of FBI agents, which we reported on before, who had to go back and look at the evidence. The timeline always tells the tale whenever we look at something that has happened. So they order this comprehensive review.

But when was Jeffrey Epstein charged? When was the investigation into Glenn Maxwell? That was during the first Trump administration. So if you're going to do the big post-mortem and the big comprehensive review, you're doing it on something that you already had success in. I mean, they brought a case. And to your point about the comments made, I'll pick on the comments made by the deputy director specifically. He talks about how he gets really upset on the media and his podcast. This is in January of this year. And he said that they'd done almost like no, maybe because I was an investigator before. It's like, I'm amazed at how few people are putting two and two together.

The US attorney Trump appointed in Trump's first term, who was involved in bringing the charges against Jeffrey Epstein, specifically said at the press conference, I was there, that the reason why this case was brought, he said, is thanks to the investigative reporting work that was done primarily by Julie Brown of the Miami Herald. And then a number of other organizations, including this one, picked up on that and brought even more facts forward. So the idea that the press didn't do its job on the Epstein matter when the press was the only outfit that was asking questions after that sweetheart deal.

And particularly coming from the FBI who wanted to arrest Jeffrey Epstein in 2007. They had a case ready to go. He was on his way back from the U.S. Virgin Islands. They wanted to arrest him in Florida. They had everything set to go. And then we know about the Justice Department and Alex Acosta, who was eventually Trump's secretary of labor, I believe, that he was the person who came up with the non-prosecution agreement, and then that was flowed through the state courts. So there's a number of facts that come up in the course of this, but what this memo

is effectively saying is what reporters who've worked on this case for years have told you, there's no evidence here of a list. So is this not an actual really glaring example of the culture that we're a part of, having nothing to do with the law, having nothing to do with the accusations against Jeffrey Epstein? It is at some point during the course of all of these stories about him, someone leans over a table at lunch here in New York and mentions, hey, did you hear that X, Y, and Z, they're on Epstein's client list? And there was no client list, obviously. But just the whispering aspect of everything surrounding Jeffrey Epstein

became larger than anything legal or larger than anything the courts had to deal with. Mike, if I got paid by the rumor or the things I heard over lunch and here in New York City, I would be coming to you live from my yacht this morning to be parked outside of an island. I mean that is that is what happens all the time. It's our job. We're incumbent upon it. We're held to a perfect standard. I'm fine with that standard. We try our best to get there to get to a point where we can say, reasonably, we think this thing happened because here's all the evidence. And then we put that out in the course of our reporting.

But that appears to be what's happened here. We haven't mentioned this morning, what's not really been mentioned in the flurry of all the coverage on this are the victims. The victims are upset when those influencers stood outside the White House and showed the binders. The binders that said unclassified. By the way, I don't have any classified documents on my computer, but that would have been the first time that I did because they were never classified in the first place. So they're holding the binders saying this is unclassified. Everybody's all excited about it.

It's all evidence that's been part of public proceedings in the past. And the victims are upset about that. And what is not said in this and what is not said in our reporting and perhaps it happened and nobody's told us and we've asked about it did anybody sit down as part of this comprehensive review and talk to the victims and say was there a step that was missed is there anything you want us to go back and look at you are after all the victims of a crime and we haven't heard about that in the course of this comprehensive review.

You know, it's just incredible, this development, in light of just how many years this story has been going on, how widespread the number of victims, the allusions, and also real reporting to rich and famous people involved in this. And I mean, you were bringing this up before it even broke out into the mainstream back in 2015. 2015 wondering repeatedly wondering why Epstein got the sweetheart deal. Yeah. It didn't make sense said there was a cover-up and I didn't understand it. Julie started doing extraordinary reporting I think before that and during that time.

But you know, Tom, the one thing, though, even back then, again, there was no evidence of client lists. There was no evidence of tapes. There was a lot of whispers about it. I want to read your tweet from July 6. Coming to the same conclusion NBC news viewers, readers have had been aware of for some time, there's never been evidence that Epstein had a client list.

Perhaps if this surprises you, you might want to think who told you that and ask some questions. That's what I always, when people are talking, I say, listen, whoever told you that, you need to question that person's honesty because what they're telling you is a lie. You're saying the same thing here.

So we understand that. We understand that we live in an age of conspiracy theories that are fueled by social media. We understand that. But what a lot of us don't understand is how the Attorney General of the United States of America could sit in a national TV interview and say, I have Jeffrey Epstein's client list on my desk in the Department of Justice. Any insight on where Pam Bondi's statement came from, what facts that it was based upon? Any follow-up with the DOJ or Pam Bondi's statement came from, what facts it was based upon, any follow-up with the DOJ or Pam Bondi on that? Sure.

So the White House and Pam Bondi will tell you she meant that as part of a broader review of several different instances that had happened in the past and that she's had all these documents on my desk and I'm reviewing them. That's what they're saying about what she meant in the course of those comments. She was asked specifically by John Roberts of Fox News point blank about the idea of a client list and at that moment she could have said look I I've got all these documents of going through them I haven't seen that yet nobody's told me about this type of list but look we're

looking into it reviewing it she did not say that so as far as what exactly pambondi's thinking of the attorney general at that moment, I don't know what it was. We have followed up with the Justice Department primarily over the idea that they released two videos yesterday. They, as part of this memo that they put out, at the end of it they said, you know,

we do believe that Jeffrey Epstein died by suicide at the federal jail here in Manhattan, which has since been closed. And they said that they based that in part on the video that they have, the recordings outside of Jeffrey Epstein's jail cell. There is a missing minute there in the videos that they released. There was one minute that is missing as it approaches midnight on the night that he died.

So that's something that we've asked the Justice Department about. We've gone back with them, certainly happy to engage with them on that topic, happy to engage with them on exactly what the Attorney General was speaking about, but it did come up yesterday at the White House briefing. I'm not sure really the whole point of the review. If I was going to do a review, it would be on something that had been a failure for this administration or for a past administration. In fact, it was a success if you want to look at it that way

for the Trump administration in the first term. I mean, they brought the charges against Jeffrey Epstein. They were involved in the Maxwell investigation, which led to her conviction of sex trafficking for him. So I think that there is a bit of a question here is, what was the point of all of this? And where did this come from? And what was the ultimate goal?

And if the ultimate goal was, well, we wanted to find out about all the politicians that Jeffrey Epstein was involved with and all the politicians that were having sex with underage girls again we've never heard any evidence of that we have asked the victims about that I mean that's where you go to you go to the victims you go to we have the travel logs involved a former president the current president of the United States but there's been nothing in the course of our work on that that's indicated that either Trump or Clinton were involved in sex aboard those jets.

Now people say, well, you weren't there, you weren't on board, who knows what happened. All that's true, fair enough. But we are and we have been asking victims, did this happen? What happened aboard those planes? Well, I'm curious. Do they have an explanation about what happened with that missing minute? I know we heard about it right after Epstein's death. There was a lot of speculation. I'm curious, does the DOJ have an explanation for why there is a missing minute of tape the night he died?

Yeah, our colleague Kevin Collier asked that question to the Justice Department yesterday. We have not yet heard back from them as far as that missing minute. As far as the issue with the video at the prison here in New York City, his initial that remember there was an initial suicide attempt by Jeffrey Epstein. There was no video that night. That had been over-recorded, overwritten on the hard drive, whatever you want to call it. So that came up in the course of the investigation.

And then it was the second time where Jeffrey Epstein died by suicide that there was video outside the hallway. By the way, this was also dealt with in the first Trump administration because then Attorney General Bill Barr said, I literally sat down and watched every single minute of those tapes. And that was the only thing that satisfied me, that there was no sort of scheme here or plot or something involving a homicide against Jeffrey Epstein, and that it was in fact suicide. And don't forget that this was reviewed by the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner here in New York City,

who is not part of the federal system. They were the ones that conducted the autopsy involving Jeffrey Epstein. They and every other entity that has reviewed this has said that it was a suicide. That's what they've said. And so they've looked at the evidence and they've come to that conclusion.

You know, I'm always careful in this. You don't know what may come up down the line. You don't know what people might say, what new information comes up in years and decades after an event happens. So I'm couching all of that. But again, nobody's come forward to me and said either on a client list, high powered people that were having sex with these girls, sexually assaulting them is what really is.

It's not just having sex with underage girls. That's a sexual assault. Nobody has come forward to us and said definitively, this is what happened.