Morning Joe - Trump again suggests deal with Iran is near

Episode Date: April 17, 2026

Trump again suggests deal with Iran is near To listen to this show and other MS podcasts without ads, sign up for MS NOW Premium on Apple Podcasts. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Jesus told us, blessed are the peacemakers. But woe to those who manipulate religion in the very name of God for their own military, economic, or political gain, dragging that which is sacred into darkness and filth. The masters of war pretend not to know that it takes only a moment to destroy. Yet often, a lifetime is often not enough to rebuild. The world is being ravaged by a handful of tyrants. It is held together by a multitude of supportive brothers and sisters.

Pope Leo yesterday in Africa calling out tyrants and those who manipulate religion. While he didn't mention any person by name, many are reading between the lines, speculating his comments could be about the president, or possibly Defense Secretary Pete Hagseth, who has repeatedly used religious rhetoric to justify the war in Iran. But this week, he seems to have confused scripture with a movie script. We'll dig into all of that. The president, meanwhile, continues to present his own version of the state of the economy,

insisting yesterday that gas prices are not that high. Those comments come as new polling shows most Americans blame him for their pain. at the pump. Good morning and welcome to Morning, Joe. It is Friday, April 17th. Good to have you all with us this morning along with Joe, Willie and me. We have the co-host of our 9 a.m. Hour, staff writer at the Atlantic, Jonathan Lemire, President Humbertus of the Council on Foreign Relations, Richard Haas, and co-host of the weekend, a Washington reporter for MS now. Jackie Alamini joins us this morning. Joe, I thought the Pope's comments were right on the mark well i mean if you yeah i i think anybody talking theology has a couple ways to go

um willie you can either go to the king james version of of the bible and uh the red letters the words that jesus christ spoke himself or you can use samuel l jackson's uh script from Quentin Tarantino's Pulp Fiction. And perhaps if you're so ignorant of the Bible and you're so desperately trying to justify your war by continuing to throw Christianity under the bus and perhaps you have some followers that really don't care that Jesus is now blasphemed every day

from the White House or the PINGA. I guess you could go with Samuel L. Jackson, And Jesus, the Pope, Samuel L. Jackson, the administration, choice is up to you. I'm not sure which way you would go if you were leading a prayer service, but I think I might just keep it simple and stick with Jesus. Yeah, I think that's probably a good call. And you never go wrong when you stick with Jesus. It's Jesus or Jules. I think most people remember Pulp Fiction.

That was Samuel L. Jackson's character who right before he killed one of his victims, he was a hitman, would recite this prayer. So that was Defense Secretary Pete Hagsith. He was trying to invoke scripture. This was during a Pentagon prayer this week, but did quote the Quentin Tarantino movie, the classic Pulp Fiction. Secretary Hegzith recited a version of Ezekiel 2517 that actually comes from Jules Winfield,

played by Samuel L. Jackson, with Higgsith even claiming it was used in a real combat rescue mission. The line is a stylized rewrite and not a real verse from the Bible. They call it Cesar 2517, which I think is meant to reflect Ezekiel 2517. Ezekiel 2517. The path of the downed aviator is beset on all sides.

The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides. By the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. By the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who in the name of camaraderie and duty, shepherd the loss through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. Blessed is he who in the name of charity and goodwill shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children.

And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to capture and destroy my brother. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger, those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my call sign is Sandy One when I lay my vengeance upon thee. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee. And amen. So Joe, just in terms of delivery, advantage Jackson there, I think, pretty clearly.

Yeah, just so you know. Much better there, yeah. Yeah. The Pentagon's explanation is that the combat search and rescue team that was going in to find the downpilot in Iran, that they created this prayer inspired by Ezekiel 2517, but also folded together with some of Pulp Fiction. And that Secretary Hagsith merely was repeating that version of the prayer. Ezekiel 2517 is actually a very brief passage expanded greatly there by the secretary and

Samuel L. Right. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And he said it was Ezekiel 2517. But, but, you know, Mika, again, this is just the latest in a long line. I mean, yesterday morning, it was incredible. Again, there are people that, of course, whistling past the political graveyard saying, oh, this won't matter. Trump gets away with everything. And perhaps he will. Perhaps there are enough evangelicals that really don't care that they've got a politician and other politicians brought through the administration that black. name Jesus Christ's name every day, starting on Easter and the president portraying himself as Jesus Christ. Pete Hagsit yesterday in a press conference comparing Donald Trump to Jesus Christ and comparing reporters to the Pharisees is incredibly. He said, oh, I went to church on Sunday. And what did he get out of church on Sunday? Because usually when I go to church on Sunday, what I usually get out is, you know, be kind to the less fortunate. uh, uh, be blessed be the merciful. They'll be shown mercy. You know, things that Jesus says.

What Pete Hagsit told us yesterday that he gets out of, out of church services is that Donald Trump is Jesus and that reporters are the Pharisees. And again, this continues and continues. Donald Trump reposting a post where Jesus is hugging Donald Trump. And he says, I don't care what the libs think about. No, it's not the libs. It's not the libs. It's the evangelicals that elected you to office. It's the conservative Catholics, even, that I'm talking to. That have been some of your most ardent supporters that are part of the reason why your approval rating among Catholics is now under 50%. I guess they think they can get away with being blasphemous every day. I know in the front of our newsletter yesterday we had a sign up says, you know, days, blank day.

since the administration blasphemed Jesus Christ. And of course, they had to take the number down and it's zero now. But there's just this obsession. I think they're now actually seeing how far they can go, being blasphemous against Jesus Christ. And this is sort of, I think it's sort of his equivalent of saying I can shoot anybody on Fifth Avenue if I want to and people will still be with me. A man that doesn't know the difference between the old and the New Testament. a man who says he's never had to pray to Jesus for forgiveness because he didn't need that forgiveness. I mean, he's done this evangelicals, white evangelicals have stayed with him. Maybe he's just trying to see and Phexeth's trying to see if they can really justify a bloody war by quoting Jesus

Christ. I don't think you can. In fact, I know you can't. It is the antithel. Our Pope fiction, it is antithesis. And the Pope wins this every time. The Pope. wins this battle every time little JD talking about, oh, you shouldn't talk about theology and Jonathan going, Pope shouldn't talk about theology? Isn't that his job? And so here we get to a point again where every single day they find some other way to offend people who actually read the Bible and actually know what blasphemy is and what blasphemy is might. As much as they want to justify this war in Iraq, they're not going to be able to justify. the war in Iraq through the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The justification will never be there. Yeah. That too. I just wonder. Did Pete know that he was, quote? I can't tell. I can't tell. He knew he was quoting Pulp Fiction or he didn't.

Would you? Well, if you say, if you say Ezekiel 2517, you know, he doesn't know. He didn't know. Okay. That's, this is Ezekiel 257. And I will execute great vengeance upon them with furious rebukes. And they shall know that I am the Lord when I shall lay my vengeance upon them. So no, he did not.

He did not know. Okay. The White House, meanwhile, yeah, good on you. The White House continues to express confidence that in an agreement with Iran to end the war will be reached soon. This public optimism comes as mediators work behind the scenes to bridge the gap between the two warring parties with Pakistan's army chief, meeting with several Iranian officials this week, including the country's parliament speaker, who Vice President J.D. Vance held talks with on Saturday. President Trump yesterday told reporters the next round of in-person negotiations could take place this weekend, days before the ceasefire is set to expire. Why are you considering ending the peace fire with Iran? With who?

With Iran. We're doing very well, I can tell you. Maybe it'll happen before that. I'm not sure it needs to be extended. Just so, you know, Iran wants to make a deal, and we're dealing very nicely with them. We've got to have no nuclear weapons. That's a big factor. And they're willing to do things today that they weren't willing to do two months ago.

Very important is that Iran does not have a nuclear weapon, and they've agreed to that. Iran's agreed to that, and they've agreed to it very powerfully. They've agreed to give us back the nuclear dust. It's way underground because of the attack we made with the B2 bombers. So we have a lot of agreement with Iran, and I think something's going to happen very positive. If there's no deal, would you be willing to extend the cease fire, or will the fighting resume? I would say the fighting. If there's no deal, fight or resume?

Meanwhile, a 10-day ceasefire between Israel and Lebanon is now in effect following negotiations brokered by the United States. In a video message yesterday, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanya, who said his country has an opportunity to forge a historic peace agreement with Lebanon, but that Israeli forces would remain inside Lebanese territory in a reinforced security buffer zone. Iranian-backed Hezbollah militants inside Lebanon were not formally part of the agreement. So in his post yesterday announcing the agreement, President Trump said he directed Vice President J.D. Van, Secretary of State Marco Rubio and Joint Chiefs Chairman General Dan Cain to work with both sides to achieve a lasting peace. The president also posted that he will invite both Netanyahu and Lebanon's president to the White. House. Richard Haas, you have a lot to say. Where do you want to begin?

In terms of just the narrow thing on Israel and Lebanon, always good when you see these sorts of things, but it's an enormous but. The major actor, Hezbollah, is left outside. And the issue forever has not been Lebanon. It's been that Hezbollah has been and remains, if you will, a quote unquote, a state within a state. Right. That the Lebanese government has been unable or at times unwilling, but we're unable to really take them out. So again, this is a step in the right direction, but quite honestly, it's far, far, far removed from the real issue here. And this is one of the stumbling blocks. In terms of what the president said, Mika, nice to see the optimism, two big issues, the straight.

And I think there we've made real progress. The blockade has put pressure on Iran's economy. And Iran's economy is their Achilles seal. It was before the war, and now the economy is a much worse shape. And I think Iran was not counting on, if you will, getting counter-blockaded. It thought it could close the straight and inflict pain on the world. And by putting on the blockade, we've now put pain on Iran. And I don't think they were prepared for that.

And they don't have the ability to withstand that for long. So I actually think that's a major step in the right direction. In terms of the nuclear issue, hard to know the details. I find it very difficult to imagine we can get the whole thing negotiated. Could we get a framework where the United States and Iran agreed to negotiate some ceilings on Iranian capabilities. If it sounds like the old Obama agreement, it could be a latter-day version of it.

Possibly. But I think both sides, say one last thing, I think there's a logic now, with the risk of sounding optimistic, which is something I never do, I think there's a logic that neither side has a rationale to escalate. If Iran escalates, what does it get them?

And potentially their energy facilities are vulnerable, and it doesn't help their economy. If we escalate, Iran still has, has the option of attacking the energy facilities of every one of the neighbors. So I think in a funny sort of way, we've run out of targets, and the logic of this war is increasingly gone. So I think there is a chance, chance, the diplomacy work, but you've got three big variables, Donald Trump, who knows who the leadership is of Iran and Bibi Netanyahu. And right now, I think that's the biggest question. Yeah, I mean, it's very exciting, Willie. You know, you have, you, you've had Bill

Walsh's West Coast offense. And now in Iran, we have Richard Hoss's blockade. And you've got a trademark. You always have to TMA if you go, the Haas blockade. But it has led to sort of a sense of optimism in that this is so much better than, again, continuing to fire missiles into Iran and risking American lives and risking more Iranian lives. This blockade actually does seem to be drawing both sides closer to each other than the negotiating table. I think that's a positive thing, and I think it's important on a Friday. Let's talk about some positive things. That's positive. Also, when we talk to Kim Gattage, you know, Kim is certainly no apologist for Israel or for Benjamin Netanyahu. I've been fascinated from the beginning of this war.

how Kim has reported that the people of Lebanon have been angered by Hezbollah very early on getting involved in this war and inviting, basically inviting attacks from Israel. And every time we talk to Kim, she does talk about how the people of Lebanon have just had enough of Hezbollah. So here we see, and as Richard says, we're a long way to any sort of people. plan here, but you look at the Abraham Accords that began the process of reforming how the Middle East looks geopolitically. And now you look at what may be happening between Lebanon and Israel. That is an opening. And we also have to say long run. We don't know what's going to happen in Iran over the next week, the next month. We don't know what's going to happen with the straight. We don't

know what's going to happen with the Iran nuclear program. We do know this, though. This government was already wobbly, teetering on the brink of extinction. It's hard to see them surviving six months to the next year. Now, they may, but the people were already fed up with the horrid economic conditions before this war. It's only gotten that much worse now. Yeah, it's good news that they're talking, like Richard said. The key, though, is Hezbollah, which, of course, embeds itself within the Lebanese population. So we'll see if there's progress here. But as you say, at least gives time and space and Jonathan Lemire, you heard optimism from the president yesterday out there on his way leaving town. We hear optimism almost every day that things are going well, that he says, declares

that Iran has agreed to things like never getting a nuclear weapon, which would be a big headline if true. He said they've agreed very powerfully. So you have to sift through the rhetoric of the president who is going to be optimistic even if there's nothing to be optimistic about. So what is your sense from talking to sources inside about where these negotiations stand? Is there real progress? Are there real talks going on? Yeah, the phrase big, if true, has never applied more than it does right now with pretty much everything out of President Trump's mouth about this war. Mark Caputo, who we had earlier this week from Axis, I think distilled it so well. We talked about this sort of new sense of optimism from White House AIDS about how things are going.

And his rebuttal to that was, well, like, they're always optimistic. Like, that's what they just, that's how they are. So it's hard to really sift through what's real. I'm not aware people I've talked to of an agreement here about the nuclear program just yet. I do think it is fair to say, though, that the blockade is working, at least to an extent, like the U.S. hoped. The great question is, how long can Iran withstand it? And the experts have really differed on their analysis. Some say, yeah, it's only going to be a couple of weeks and they're really going to buckle. Others believe this could be three, four, five, six months.

Eventually, everyone agrees that Tehran won't be able to take it anymore. The issue is how much pain is the U.S. willing to take between now and then? how much political pain will President Trump and Republicans, facing midterms this fall, will they be willing to take? You know, there are some voices on the right, you know, who have already pushing Trump to resume military operations, noting that Iran is taking advantage of this ceasefire to recover some other missile batteries, to move positions, move weapons around, and the like. So the, the, the, we don't know, but there are signs of hope and diplomacy.

We, you know, and there are talks potentially scheduled. as soon next week. So I think there will be some optimism there as those negotiations begin. But Jack Yolamay, let's go with you for a moment because Republicans are anxious about this war, anxious about what it could mean for November. There have been efforts here on the Hill to try to keep President Trump's war-making abilities in check. The War Powers Act, it's a close vote this week, it was, but it still went down to defeat. So what's the latest there from the Hill as they see the state of the war where the blockade could be going. Yeah, Jonathan, well, as you noted, that vote failed yesterday.

And I think what the president is dealing with still, something that has plagued him throughout the entirety of this war, is competing desires right now. You know, even yesterday on the White House lawn, he said that a 20-year suspension of Iran's ability to enrich their uranium was not enough. that comes after that is what, after we reported that that's what was offered to the Iranians during negotiations in Pakistan and that that was countered by the Iranians with a three-year suspension on their ability to enrich uranium, which even if you talk to former Biden administration officials, they believe that that was actually a better possibility and a better deal than

what was negotiated during the JCPOA, that any sort of multidis. year suspension of their ability to enrich uranium was going to be, again, better than what the JCPOA had done. That being said, you just saw the president sort of, I think, cow to some of the hardline, right conservative voices that he's been hearing that have basically said, we're not going to accept any long-term deal unless it permanently bans their ability to create a nuclear weapon. But what you're seeing on the Hill right now is a lack of an appetite to continue. at least to continue fighting again to resume the war past this ceasefire. But the president also says he doesn't see a situation right now where they're going to extend

the ceasefire. There are really so many unknowns here. We're taking it hour by hour at the White House. And at the same time, you are also seeing lawmakers reticent to allocate the appropriations that the Pentagon has asked for to continue fighting this war. That's going to be the next big battle ahead. All right. Still ahead on morning Joe, President Trump appears to be downplaying the rising cost of gasoline, even as his party faces growing concerns from voters over the issue of affordability. We'll show you those new remarks. Plus, European leaders are meeting today to discuss efforts to reopen the Strait of Hormuz. We'll get a live report from Paris on that. And as we go to break, a quick look at the travelers' forecast this morning from Accuweather's Bernie Rayno. Bernie, how's it looking?

Meek, it's not as hot here on Friday across the northeast. Your exclusive vacuum with the forecast 84, Washington, D.C., 78, Harrisburg. Spotty thunderstorms, New York City toward Boston this afternoon after spotty shower this morning. Hey, severe weather this evening, Chicago, towards St. Louis. Then we start talking about Oklahoma City and Dallas late today and tonight. The southeast is just hot and dry. travel delays central part of the United States, but along the East Coast, expect for a few binder delays in Boston and New York City. You're A-OK. To help you make the best decisions

of be more in the know, download the Acuether app. Enjoy the weekend. Okay, everyone's glad it's Friday. Friday, everyone, live, look at Nashville for you and why are we looking at beautiful Nashville? Willie Geist, we've missed you for a few days, but you were in Nashville for the Michael, James. Fox Foundation, fund, you were hosting it. I was following on Instagram. It looked amazing. Tell us about it. Yeah, thanks to that shot of Lower Broadway this morning takes me back. And it was appropriate because the night of the Michael J. Fox Foundation, they called it a country thing in Nashville. They have an event in New York every year and now in Nashville. But I was lucky enough to host. Michael comes

down for it. He's a hero. To me and our family, we are Parkinson's family, like more than a million others in the U.S. and 6 million others around the world. His foundation has given $3 billion, raised and gave $3 billion to research over the last 25 years. You see some of the people there. Eric Church on the left, Little Big Town, Kimberly Schlatman of Little Big Town. Her mother has Parkinson's disease, so she's led this effort. Eric Church did an incredible acoustic set. Little Big Town there did their set as well. There was stand-up comedy, raised a bunch of money on the campus of Belmont University in Nashville. It's just always a fun night

and always a privilege to be around the great Michael J. Fox. Wonderful. That's great. We'll get back to the news now. The Executive Director of the International Energy Agency delivered a dire warning in an interview with the Associated Press yesterday. What is happening now is the largest energy crisis

we have ever faced in the history. We have maybe six weeks or so jet fuel left. If we are not able to open the stratophormus, if the refinery as a result will start to work, I can tell you soon, we will hear the news that some of the flights from city A to city B might be canceled as a result of less.

of jet fuel. This comes as Dutch airline, KLM, has already canceled 160 flights to and from Amsterdam for the month of May amid rising fuel costs. And the top German airline is pulling some aircraft out of service. Meanwhile, French president, Emmanuel Macron, and UK Prime Minister Kirstarmer, are gathering today in Paris, where they will co-host a virtual international summit focused on efforts to reopen the Strait of Hormuz. Dozens of countries are expected to join the talks

as the global impact of the critical waterways closure becomes clearer. Joining us live from Paris, MS now international reporter in Nes de Lekwetra, and Ness, what more can you tell us about the goals for this summit and now the closure of the strait is continuing to impact Europe. Hey, good morning. Yeah, critical discussions being held here in Paris

on the Strait of Hormuz, chaired by French President Emmanuel Macron and the British Prime Minister Kier Starmur. We understand they're going to be discussing the possibility of sending in a multinational force to secure the strait and to ensure freedom of navigation. They're being crystal clear that this would be a defensive alliance and that they wouldn't actually send it until the conflict is over. So the Europeans there are potentially trying to appease President Trump, who of course has repeatedly called on them to do more to secure the strait of Hormuz.

For now, though, they have resisted pressure to get dragged into this conflict. but they are now discussing what they could potentially do after the conflict is over. Beyond that, we understand they're going to be discussing economic consequences of the blockades. So European leaders worried about things like inflation and food shortages, rising prices. And now, like you mentioned, the possibility of flight cancellations with the head of the International Energy Agency saying that Europe is running out of jet fuel, that they have only about six weeks worth of jet fuel left. We understand that roughly 75% of fuel imports.

in Europe came from the Middle East. The reason we haven't yet seen shortages, we understand is because the last shipments were on their way. So the war broke out. There were shipments that had made it through the Strait of Hormuz already that were on their way to Europe. But those final shipments have now made it to Europe. So that's why we haven't yet seen shortages.

But we have certainly seen fuel prices surging more than doubling since the beginning of the war. And so as a result, a number of airlines have had to take measures to counter those rising costs. And we heard Lufthansa this week, German carriers saying that they're going to have to retire 38 planes. They say that decision is unavoidable because of rising costs and because of the geopolitical situation. KLM, you mentioned it there. The Dutch carrier also saying they're going to have to operate less

flights in and out of Amsterdam and both KLM and Air France this week becoming the latest carriers to say they're going to have to raise ticket prices because of the surging fuel costs. MS Now, International Reporter and Nestle-Aquitareth, reporting live from Paris. Thank you. Richard Haas, what do you make of the possibility six weeks from now? What does that look like if it's not reopened? Well, I think, first of all, the odds are pretty good. It will be reopened. Two things we haven't talked about.

One is, guess who's weighing in now to get it reopened, China? China does not want to see this continue, given their economic vulnerability. They don't want to see a wider war. That, to me, is a really important development. Secondly, a piece of history on Iran. Remember at the end of the Iran-Iraq war? After a decade, the Ayatollah Khomeini said, this is like drinking poison for me, but I have to save the revolution. I am going to end

our involvement in this war. So the historical precedent for Iran taking difficult steps, and again, I don't think they're going to be very comfortable with another month or so of their economy essentially frozen. This European thing we just talked about, I think, is not a whole lot. They're only talking about doing this after things are secure. So I wouldn't, I don't think this is a big deal. I think a big question also now, Mika, going into these negotiations is How ambitious are we? Does the United States, for example, demand that Iran does nothing in the nuclear domain? If we try to overreach at the negotiating table, you can never do better at the negotiating table than you did on the battlefield. And yes, we accomplish things on the battlefield, but Iran psychologically has come out of this war in pretty good shape.

So I think one of the challenges facing the theologian, J.D. Vance and others is whether we're prepared to compromise. What are we prepared to take, if you will, less than everything we want on the nuclear, on the question of Iranian support for proxies, on Iranian ballistic missiles and drones? That is a big question. What's good enough for the United States? And then, really complicated, is what's good enough for the United States, if it's less than everything, is it good enough for Israel? So I think there's going to be some very interesting dynamics on the side of these negotiations.

So we'll say, but again, I do think we're beginning to see the, a bit of progress because Iran needs a deal. We ultimately need a deal and China needs a deal. Yeah. Well, you know, Richard, we've got to get the right deal. We can't take too much of a compromise on some of these issues. You look at the strait. The strait has to be opened. And Iran can't make more money after the war than they made before the war on the strait. You go to nuclear. They cannot be in the position regarding nuclear that they were before the war because they were already in a position where, you know, 60% enriched uranium, they could have created dirty bombs. The Trump administration, after

promising that the nuke, their nuclear program was completely destroyed a year ago, cannot go back to where they're in the position of the Obama administration and having to sit across tables for the next 20 years negotiating on Iran's nuclear program. And finally, missiles. I, We can talk about Israel, but you look at the UAE, you look at the Saudis, you look at other allies in the region, Jordan. And they are not going to be pleased with any deal that doesn't limit Iran's ability to fire missiles throughout the region. So I'm optimistic that if the president holds on and the blockade continues long enough that Iran is, going to be forced to come closer to our position than to their position. But, you know, with fears that somehow the Secretary of Defense may hear me talk about a biblical verse and

maybe confuse it with the Texas chainsaw massacre, I will say we can't be like King Solomon here and split the baby. There is no splitting the baby when it comes to the straight, when it comes to nukes and when it comes to missiles. So I would guess the administration can only hope the market stays strong and that oils continues to hover around 100 and goes no higher because they're going to have to do more than just split the difference with Iran. Joe, on the straight, I agree with you. On the nuclear, I do think there are areas to compromise.

For example, I can imagine allowing Iran a certain amount of limited activity, heavily inspected, but it would be an open-ended agreement. That, to me, is the kind of deal we're going to have to think about. I think you're wildly optimistic if you think we're going to get a deal that's going to formally include drones or ballistic missiles. Again, there is going to have to be supermodic. I know, Richard, what I'm saying is I'm not being wildly optimistic. I'm saying we have to keep the blockade in place until we can have a deal that our partners across the region on missiles are going to agree with, and that may mean a blockade that lasts another month. I know Donald Trump wants this to come to an end, and I know we need it, working Americans need to come in. I'm just saying

these three issues, you and I and everybody else for the next 20 years will be calling this war a colossal failure if these three issues aren't addressed. Street's got to be open. Got to be a ceiling on the nuclear, but we got to get the straight open. And I think linking it to everything else, might be too much. There might be other ways of dealing with some of these other issues. But look, that's what these negotiations are about. And when any time you negotiate, you not only have to think about what you want, but what's your alternative? And in this case, if the straits closed, if the war continues, we've got away. We've got away. That's where we are. But again, I think there's a better chance of getting, not a perfect deal, but an acceptable deal now than there has

been at any point over the last six weeks. All right. Richard Haas, thank you, as always. We appreciate it. a great weekend. And coming up, we'll have more on the war with Iran, including how the president's most loyal supporters are feeling about the conflict. Plus, as the country continues to grapple with the war, will be joined by presidential historian Doris Kerns Goodwin to discuss the lessons of the past that could be applied today. Morning Joe will be right back. Beautiful live picture. The mall in Washington from the top of the Washington Monument, 644 on this Friday morning. Jackie Alamani, you recently spoke exclusively with Yosef Palermo. He's a former curator at the Kennedy Center who was laid off abruptly last month. Now he's coming forward to

detail the mismanagement. He says he witnessed at the Kennedy Center. And what he calls a bizarre series of moves that led to the center's two-year closure. Here is a part of Jackie's interview. One of the last things that you were tasked with doing before you and dozens of other of your colleagues were fired on March 26th was the task of getting rid of the entire Kennedy Center's permanent collection. What happened? I was summoned to Rick Rennel's office with a number of my colleagues, and he told me that he was putting me in charge of getting rid of, the art, getting it off campus. You know, he wanted to get it out of the building for the renovations with the intention of replacing it with new art.

You know, there are a number of artworks throughout the campus that were donated to the American people in the name of cultural diplomacy from different countries all around the world. And here I was being asked to contact these donors and tell them to. to not only take their work back, but in some cases to pay for the excavation of, you know, sculptures that were installed outside. And I resented that I was being asked to do that. So Jackie, to the surprise of no one, Rick Grinnell, who led the Kennedy Center for a while,

according to Palermo, was more focused on social media feuds than running the Kennedy Center and clearing it out and remaking it effectively in the image of Donald Trump. What else did you learn from that interview? Yeah, Willie. Well, Palermo's account basically took stock of these 10 months that he spent at the Kennedy Center. He was actually hired by Grinnell to be the first curator of visual arts and special programming for the center. And he said everything that he witnessed essentially amounted to the politicization and desecration of America's premier cultural institution. He said that everything he saw around fundraising efforts, programming,

efforts was centered around having a close association to President Trump that included fundraising appeals, interactions with donors, and what Palermo says amounted to cronyism and ethical lapses, some of which he witnessed directly. He goes on to in our conversation, and along with a first person to count in the Atlantic, and you'll see more of our conversation throughout the day and tomorrow on the weekend show. But in instance, at a, a party that was supposed to commemorate the October 7th massacre in Israel. This was something that was hosted in the Israeli lounge in the center. Rick Rinell made a fundraising appeal to donors and essentially said to them, again, during

a commemoration for a very sobering event and said if that donors present at that event didn't pony up money to continue to pay and provide funds to the Kennedy Center that they were going to lose the name of the Israeli lounge. This was something that was gifted to America by the Israelis decades ago. He also describes an ethical lapse in which a top lieutenant of Grinnell texted him and asked Palermo to put an exhibit on for an artist that had recently sold artwork to Rick Grinnell. This is obviously problematic for a number of reasons. It's unclear whether Grinnell was aware of this request. And the Kennedy Center actually did tell us, that an archivist was currently working to properly catalog the art from the permanent

collection that Yosef just mentioned there. Although what Yosef described was serious concerns about whether that art is actually going to be properly protected, cataloged, removed, and whether or not the funds actually exist to make sure that that occurs. Wow. MS. Now, Washington reporter Jackie Alamini, thank you very much for that reporting. And of course, we'll be watching the weekend at 7 a.m. Eastern right here on MS Now. And joining us now, presidential historian Doris Kearns Goodwin, her book, An Unfinished Love Story, A Personal History of the 1960s, is available in paperback now. And guess what? Sony Pictures announced yesterday it has hired Oscar-nominated screenwriter David

Hemingson to adapted into a film. Congratulations. Thank you. It's pretty exciting. Amazing. I mean, he's an extraordinary man. I mean, that's the most important person who can write the script. And he wrote an Oscar-nominated film about the holdovers about this guy who was kept in the, a cummugently teacher kept up at a prep school and had to take care of all these rich kids. As soon as I met him, I knew he was it.

He loves history. He majored in history in American Studies at Yale. He's a storyteller. And he's a mensch. So it'll be so much fun to work for them. That is fantastic. Congratulations. So let's draw on your book and look at the Iran War.

how it's being handled and how it's being messaged, and what echoes in history are you seeing here? You know, what I've been thinking about is the most important decision that a president makes is how he tells the people in the country why he's going to war. You're sending men and women into war. And then once that war starts, what kind of information do you give back to the people? While the war in Vietnam dwarfs this war in terms of its size, and there was a draft and there was a huge anti-war demonstrations of which I was a part in those old days, It does have similarities because what was sad for Lyndon Johnson was because he never got a congressional real authorization. He got a Gulf of Tonkin thing, which de facto, he never had to go back to them. That's why the war powers resolution matters.

If you go back to them, you start debating, is this war doing what it is? What are the goals? And when the war in Vietnam didn't produce what they claimed, they were optimistic, we're almost at the end. Right. And then suddenly comes the TED Offensive. And then the support dropped out because they didn't believe what the administration. was saying, unless you have credibility in a war, unless you trust what people are saying, unless your purposes are clear and not shifting, that it's a terrible thing to happen to a country

because you're putting your people in risk. The shifting explanations. Joe? Yeah, Doris, you know, failure is always going to happen. Presidents are going to make mistakes. But what we learn from history is how great presidents respond to those mistakes. Andy Grove, who was the head of Intel. I'm actually reading Ryan Holiday. He's going to be on the book on the show in a little bit.

It's called The Obstacle is Away. And Andy Grove said, bad companies are destroyed by crisis, good companies survive crises, and great companies actually thrive in crises and get better. I go back to 1961 on this day. in 1961, Fidel Castro repelled forces in the Bay of Pigs operation. It was a failure and perhaps the worst failure of the Kennedy administration. What did John Kennedy learn from those mistakes? How did he take those mistakes on board? And what lessons can we take out of Kennedy's response to the Bay of Pigs failure?

You're so right, Joe. I mean, what he understood, in fact, during that week after the Bay of Pigs, he was so sad. He said, how did I believe what the experts were telling me? I've known all my life not to do that. And actually Jackie Kennedy said he came to her room and he actually cried in her lap because he'd been so stupid. So what he realized when he changed his decision-making structure, you're right, he grew from understanding that mistake. I'm going to have people in there who can question my assumptions. I'm going to bring Bobby Kennedy into a central position. I'm going to make sure that whatever information is given to me that suddenly the Cuban people are going to rise up. That turned out not to be true. I'm going to get better intelligence. And when he got to the much more important decisions about the Cuban missile crisis, he was much more seasoned. And in fact, he probably wouldn't have been able to do that as well had he not acknowledged the errors. You're so right. People grow through mistakes. People are so unafraid to say today that it made a mistake. Somehow makes them feel weak. It makes them feel strong. And Kennedy grew as a result of the failure of the Bay of Pigs without a question. George, so as you rightly said, the comparison.

between what happened in Vietnam, what's happening in Iran, can only go so far. One is a far, far bigger conflict. But it's not just Vietnam. Talk to us with the lessons of history for when a president is in an engaging conflict, engaging war, and it's not going as well as he would like. It's not necessarily a failure or a loss.

It's too early to say that about what's happening in Iran. But it's clear. They thought this is going to be done in a few days, week or two at most. Here we are approaching day 50. So how does the president handle that internally but also to the American people? I think the most important thing is to share where you are with the American people. If you do as they did in Vietnam and you project optimism that's not

going to be met by reality, that's when credibility, that's throwing the credibility gap. That's when that word was formed. And then people don't trust you anymore. And then it's a downward slide. But if you tell them, yes, we're having problems, but we're doing this and we're achieving that. They're willing to listen to you. That's one of the things that FDR was so good about doing. When the war wasn't going well, World War I, World War II, rather. He would say, you know, we're in a tough time now that we're in a valley, but we're going to get through this. He didn't pretend that in those early days after Pearl Harbor and after what was going on in the South Pacific, the things were going well. He said, no, we're going through a valley, but we'll come out of this.

You've got to be straight with the American people. It's the most important time to be straight with them about what's happening. And they can take it. That's what FDR said. They'll take the burden if I tell them what's happening. Doris, could you just tell us all? I was at the National Action Network's 26 convention. And Reverend Al Sharpton gave you the award for the year. And I know it meant a lot to you and meant a lot to the people there. Could you talk about that? Yeah, I think the wonderful thing about talking with Al at that time was what we were talking about was the 1960s. And what's great about that decade. It's so consequential in our history is that it was a time when people believed they could make a difference. When they grew up thinking about the Peace Corps, when they joined the

freedom rides, when they did the sit-ins, when they were marching, all of those things had a belief that America could be changed because of collective action. And that's what I believe we need today more than any other time. We saw it in Minnesota. Just remember what we felt when those people in Minnesota went out night after night in that incredibly cold weather, and they got the surge ended. I think right now the most important thing, and the Reverend and I talked about that, voting is the most important thing that we have to deal with today. And we have to do what they did in Freedom Summer in 1964, people went down and registered black voters. There were all sorts of means of preventing them from registering. They'd make you say the 13th Amendment, the 12th Amendment,

how many jelly beans are? They're in a jar of jelly beans. And they went in to force them to do the right thing. And then, of course, that law passes. Right now we've got to figure out if they're going to make us use birth certificates, they're going to make us use passports, they're going to make us use marital certificates. We've got to set up centers where that everybody can go and get the information to know how to get those things done. Collective action is what's going to get us out of the difficulties we're in right now. Everything that's happened in our country really comes from the ground up. You know, when Lincoln was called a liberty, he said, don't call me that. It was the anti-slavery movement and the union soldiers that did it all. It was the union movement in the 30s. It

was the civil rights in the 60s. It was the women's movement. It was the gay rights movement. It's up to us right now. And I think that's what the 60s lesson is, more important than the war, more important than the assassinations and the sad parts. It was the gay rights. It was illuminated by people feeling they could make a difference. And when you do feel that way, you're authentically alive in a way that you're not otherwise. Presidential historian Doris Kearns-Goodwin. Thank you so much. What a great note to end on. Her book, An Unfinished Love Story, A Personal History of the 1960s is available in paperback now and coming soon on the screen. And still...