Morning Joe - Trump has ‘lost control’ of the Epstein conspiracy: David Drucker

Episode Date: November 14, 2025

Trump has ‘lost control’ of the Epstein conspiracy: David Drucker Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

We're going to work together, and we're going to have some absolutely incredible results. Thank you all for being here. Thank you very much. Thank you. All right. President Trump with a quick exit yesterday after signing. trade deals with four countries, not taking any questions from reporters at the White House. It comes after the president's failed pressure campaign on Republican lawmakers to block a discharge

petition on the Epstein files. We'll bring you the very latest from Capitol Hill on that story. We'll also dig into new polling on the president's approval rating as well as his handling of key issues. It comes as his administration is using a familiar tactic. to go after another outspoken critic of the president. We'll tell you who it is this time. And good morning and welcome to morning, Joe. It is Friday, everyone, November 14th, along with Joe and me. We have the co-host of our fourth hour,

staff writer at the Atlantic, Jonathan Lemire, the host of Pablo Tori finds out. Pablo Tori, he's coming joining us in just a moment. Just a second later, he'll be here. Senior writer for the dispatch and a columnist for Bloomberg. opinion. David Drucker is with us this morning, along with MSNBC senior White House reporter Vaughn Hilliard and former MSNBC host, Chris Matthews, his new book, Lessons from Bobby, 10 Reasons, Robert F. Kennedy still matters. And it's out now. And Chris, Matthews,

this book, it's such a great book, such an important read, especially now. I know the reaction you've gotten to it. It's been really, really special. As you know, Bobby, has long been one of my heroes, not because he was perfect, but because he was so human, the evolution that he made from being that tough, hard-nosed attorney general, to being a guy that went to South Africa, as we talked about, guy who understood earlier than most that he was wrong on Vietnam, a guy that continued to grow up until June the same. 1968 when he was tragically cut down.

Yeah, that's what John Lewis said about him. He grew and got better and better. Yeah, and what do you think is a lesson for us today? One of the most important lessons for people that are tuning in that may not have heard you talk about the book before at the top of this show, when we have

so much going on. These are difficult times, but my God, Bobby lived through. extraordinarily tumultuous times as well. Yeah, I think a hang and landed on your problem is my favorite Bobby Kennedyism, which is when you have a problem, admit it. If you're wrong on the war, say so. If you were wrong about civil rights growing up,

that you never got to the issue morally, say so. He would say things like, I didn't give a lot of, I didn't lose a lot of sleep over African Americans and their civil rights until he became attorney general. And he realized he had to deal with people who wanted to deny people their civil rights. And he also got to meet the good guys who were trying to fight for their rights. And so he did hang a land on your problem. It's such a great, rich thing in politics.

When you're wrong, say so. And you be the first one to say so. Don't let somebody else do it. You know what else I loved about him that I think people miss so much with politicians today because everybody's trying to be so careful in absolutely everything that he does? You've talked about it in this book, that his brother, you know, Cool. Some would say cold, detached, cerebral. But again, as far as relations with people, you know, he was, he was cold. Bobby was so much like, you know, Peter, who Jesus built his church on. Peter was the crazy man who loved, who loved Jesus so much. But he was always outside of himself.

always overmatched. He was a guy that, you know, remember, you know, cut, cut the ear off the guard in the Garden of Githemite. He was the guy that said to Jesus, let me walk out on the water. And they got out of the water. And he goes, help, I'm seeking. Jesus. But he was all too human. And that's the same with Bobby, who would get really angry, get really, but underneath that, he had the compassion also on the other side of that to see people where they were. And to love people where they were. And that's why the 68 campaign still, for people haven't read it and haven't read this book, it remains one of the most extraordinary moments, I think, in modern American history. You know, I think I love pictures, and we're on television, which is great

because you can show the pictures. But when he was in Gary, Indiana, which is our tough town on Lake Michigan, you know, he would ride around that car of his with Tony Zale, the first former middleweight champion, beaten Rocky Gratziana two or three times. And then he would have Richard Hatcher, the first African-American mayor on both sides of him in the open car. And he wanted everybody to say, you know, I'm with both sides. I want peace. I want people to get along. I want a better country. But, you know, that kind of campaigning where he would go campaign. You have campaign, Joe, he would have people pull his shoes off. How do you get people's shoes? How did get a candidate's shoes off? Not just his cufflings and everything else. And he said, unless you let people

touch you, they don't believe you. You can talk all the speeches you want, but if you don't let people close to you. And that's, of course, what he did is, you know, I think it was Jeff Greenfielders, no one was Jack Newfield who said, he spent his life with diplomats and celebrities and astronauts and mountain climbers. And they ended up by, he ended up getting killed, reaching for the hand of a $75 a week dishwasher, a Mexican-American guy. That's where he went to those people that needed help. And that's what, that's what, that's, that, that's what, that That's the danger he ran. Let's be honest. That's the danger he ran in that last California race of going to the minority people who were in trouble. With that, let's get to our top story this morning. A losing battle for President Trump. That's how White House officials are describing the upcoming House vote aimed at compelling the release of all of the Justice Department's Jeffrey Epstein case files.

The official made that comment to MSNBC, adding that there's still a chance White House. aides meet with House Republicans to try to convince them to vote against the legislation while acknowledging it will still likely pass despite those efforts. That would mimic the White House's failed pressure campaign this week to whip votes against the discharge petition that paved the way for this pending vote. Republican Congresswoman Lauren Bobert of Colorado signed the petition, despite being summoned to the White House for a meeting with top officials and receiving a phone call from President Trump himself, all in an attempt to convince her to do otherwise. House Speaker Mike Johnson says he plans to bring the bill to a vote next week. If it passes,

the House, it would still need to get through the Senate and then be signed by President Trump. Again, as we said yesterday, there's some fascinating cross currents going on in the Republican party, especially the Maga Base, Lauren Bobert, had some nice words to say about Donald Trump and the people that were trying to pressure her the other day. But then she posted, of course, a video of a local TV station in Colorado praising her for being courageous and not backing down when the White House was putting so much pressure on her. So, again, a lot of cross currents there. And what's so fascinating about this, David Drucker is you have you have people like, let's say, Nancy Mason, South Carolina.

She wants to be the next governor there in South Carolina, but she's got to get through the Republican primary before. It used to be very easy to just say, oh, well, I'll do what Donald Trump tells me to do. That'll help me with the base. Now I get elected. With Nancy Mace, the calculation's far, far more complicated. And I mean, I've seen this play out before. You've seen it play out before where you take the party line vote, and then you

you go home and your own base sees you as being with the deep state or being to Washington. And if Nancy Mace goes along with all of the nonsense, it's happening with the DOJ and the FBI and the pressuring on Epstein, then she becomes the very deep state operative, and I put that in quotes, that she and the MAGA base have been attacking for the past decade. So what is South Carolina Republican to do? It's fascinating, Joe, because on the one hand, it's so rare that we see House Republicans, any really House Republicans break with the president in such an overt way, especially with primary season right around the corner.

But I think there are a couple of things going on here. One, we've, Donald Trump has lost control of the Epstein conspiracy, right? These are flames that he has fanned, and now this conflagration has gotten out of control. And for the first time in his second presidency, we see him as the victim of events rather than in control of events. You know, you may like nothing that he did during the first six months of his presidency, but he was in control of events day to day, both in the executive branch and on Capitol Hill. And that has evaporated. And so I think, one, we have Republicans looking over their shoulder after last week's election and with voters so unhappy about the economy.

But I think this is just a case of a particular issue being important in its own right to the president's base and two grassroots Republicans who came to believe earnestly, it turns out, that there is some deep-seated conspiracy behind these Epstein files. And they're not letting it go. And I think the other thing this shows us is that once the president passes from the scene, in terms of, in other words, once he's no longer president in a few years, the idea that his coalition is just going to perpetuate on its own isn't, in fact, the case. And that it's going to be very hard for the next Republican nominee. not impossible, but very hard for the next Republican nominee to keep the coalition together that elected the president in 2016 and particularly in 2024. Yeah, I mean, the Trump Coalition is the Trump Coalition. Just as I've said a million times, the Reagan Coalition was the Reagan Coalition, the Obama Coalition,

was the Obama Coalition. The Trump Coalition ends when Donald Trump's off the scene. And we see it with Republicans losing in 2017, 18, 19, 21. 22, 23, now 25. When Donald Trump's not on the ballot, that coalition stays home. Right. Also, there's a lot of, there's been a lot of discussions here about the politics of the Jeffrey Epstein files and whether they should be released and who is important to, and it's important to Republicans and important to the MAGA base. But like, let's just keep in mind this is important for justice, for these women who were victims of pedophilia when they were girls. And

That's just, I don't know anybody who would think, oh, let's just move on and forget about them. That just seems wrong. That is the argument. And Jonathan O'Meer, that argument wasn't selling when Donald Trump's approval ratings were in the 40s, when things were going well. We saw several months ago, you already had Republicans pushing back again, because this has been a 10-year obsession with a MAGA base. they have believed the deep state for 10 years have been hiding the Jeffrey Epstein files despite the fact that Donald Trump

was in power for four of those 10 years. But now, think about it, we just talked about the election last week and just the incredible victories by Democrats. I mean, historic, especially. You look at Virginia, my gosh, county by county by county, everything is sweeping away from Republicans.

Then you add on top of that, we're going to be talking about it. But Donald Trump's approval rating right now, I think it's the AP has him at 36%. They're having him at 37, 38%. But he's gotten down into the 30s lately. You look at the right track, wrong track poll, and all of them are going wildly in the wrong direction. Only a third of Americans think America is going on the right track. and two-thirds think it's going on the wrong track.

There's another poll out yesterday that we cited that said only 33% of Americans agree with Donald Trump's handling of the U.S. government. You look at all of the economic numbers, and this is where Trump's handling of the issues on the economy, the Associated Press, only third, that's lower, I think, than Joe, Biden's numbers at his lowest point. I mean, we're moving toward George W. Bush numbers at the end of his term here. The economy, only 33 percent approve health care. Again, for Democrats that are too stupid to realize you won the government shutdown, don't be stupid. You won the government shutdown. Only 34 percent of Americans agree with Donald Trump's handling of health care. Immigration,

It's the issue that he's been right side up on. Now, he's 15 points in the negative on his strongest issue, in part because these ongoing masked ice raids of American cities. And then there you go, the handling of the federal government, 33%. And then you add on top of that, I mean, I've been on the House floor. I know what it's like when everybody gets on the House floor and starts talking, when your party gets walloped? And it very quickly, people are like, okay, yeah, we got to take care of ourselves because

the guy on the other end of Pennsylvania Avenue is not going to do it. Well, that's exactly what Republicans are starting to think right now on Capitol Hill. So how does he hold this coalition together and tell them to vote to protect records of a pedophile? Yeah, the re-emergence of the Epstein story comes at the worst possible time for President Trump. Yeah, bad timing. This is the weakest moment of his second term by far. Republicans lose badly at the ballot box last week on Election Day. You just went through a lot of polls where Americans clearly unhappy with Trump's performance as president.

We have the Supreme Court expressed real skepticism of his signature economic policy, these tariffs. That may be unwound in days ahead. We have, of course, you know, the hubbub about the ballroom and everything else where Trump, you know, is slimming, slipping here. And we also are seeing he's running into, and this is rare, the limits of his power with his own party. Those calls to the House of Representatives, those congresswoman who defied him and said, no, we're not going to do that. As I reported for a piece I wrote last night for the Atlantic, he's talking to allies. They may have a similar pressure campaign with some senators once the bill goes there. And if it does pass both chambers, we don't know that it was.

will. But if it does pass both chambers, then he's going to be in a position where he'll have to veto it. And that will, of course, raise all sorts of questions, what is he hiding? And even some of his allies that he's been on the, as I reported, he's been on the phone with over the last 48 hours, are saying to him, like, you're not handling it this the right way. You're just causing more attention to it. You're acting like you do have something to hide. And that is Vaughn Hilliard, where we are right now. It's a White House trying to exhibit some damage control furiously sort of spin their way out of this, but it is. They privately, they acknowledge this is a tough moment.

So take us inside the room there. What more should we expect from the White House and from the president himself? And we open this hour with a telling video clip. Since the Epstein emails were released, President Donald Trump, not camera shy. He loves taking questions from the press pool anyway, usually stacked with friendly faces, since now the White House has gained control over, largely over that. hasn't taken a single question. Reporters did not get to go in to see his dinner with business leaders the other night.

When he talked, when he signed the bill to get the government open again, no questions. And as we showed yesterday, he and the First Lady hurriedly left that event in the East Room. Again, he doesn't want to be asked about Epstein. Right. And even if you go back to a year ago, he wouldn't want to take questions about Stormy Daniels. He would want to take questions about anything else besides the allegations of sexual impropriety, of cheating on his spouse, of being affiliated with Jeffrey Epstein here. And I think this is what has left Caroline Levitt and those White House allies in such a difficult

place. Now, number one, of course, they've chosen to come and defend and represent this individual. But at the same time, right, you can't just label this as a hoax. When, you know, document by document, according to this private communication, Jeffrey Epstein, makes the case that Donald Trump was, in fact, aware of the girls. And it's more than just kicking him out of hit your club. To what extent, over the course of three decades, do you associate with this individual and a prop up, effectively, the power dynamics in which young women are taken advantage of?

And I think this comes down to, when you're talking about American voters, in 2016, so many people voted for him on the idea that it was locker room talk. But in the decades since, it's more than locker room talk. There is now a file of evidence in which the president has serious accusations of sexual assault and harassment that had been levied against him. He was found to have paid off Stormy Daniels in order to advance his presidential campaign. He was found to have defamed and sexually assaulted E. Jean Carroll.

And if you go back to how voters view people that face these allegations, Herschel Walker lost, Roy Moore lost, Charles Herbster lost. Sean Parnell was pushed out of his race over in Pennsylvania here. You know, I think that this is where there is a reckoning among the American electorate in which Donald Trump has not shown any regret. And if you look at this at a very human level, he has left people like his secretary in a very difficult position because he has not been able, over the last decade, to take that inner look and tell the American public that he regrets associating with Jeffrey Epstein. Instead, he sent his deputy attorney general down to have a

conversation with Galane Maxwell and won't rule out a potential pardon for her here. I think that this is a moment, whether it's Marjorie Taylor Green, Lauren Bobert, or Nancy Mays, I think that this is what is going to lead to Leader Thune, really being the focus point of attention and whether he even brings this discharge petition up for a vote in whether there are going to be 13 Republican senators that agree to release these files. It is damning and it's becoming increasingly difficult for the Republican Party to defend what its own voters are unwilling to themselves. Well, and from the public perspective, from the electorate's perspective, I mean,

the thing about this story, too, is that it's not like having to understand what a clean CR means. even what tariffs mean. This is such a very simple story that, of course, Joe, as he pointed out, that the Republican Party, the MAGA base, really did bang the drum on for years and years. And so, Chris Matthews, the question I have here is, when there is an issue like this with such resonance, especially among, by the way, the young men who were seeing now turn the other direction in terms of these election results in the last couple weeks, what are the senators thinking here as a vote approaches the Senate? And they have to make a choice. about, like, what do we do now with an issue that actually has a broad resonance and a simplicity

of understanding with the American people? Well, I don't think the senators have any guts, and I think this is a problem. I mean, if you think about, you know, where I take my kids for pizza, right down the road in Connecticut Avenue, a guy comes in there with a shotgun because he hears there's a child molesting or whatever going on, they're young girls. They believe this. And this has always been the crowd that Trump wants to come. cultivate. Look at all the people he's given

pardons to and commuted sentences of. Everybody who's on the wacko right, the far right, the crazy right, he's tried to look out for. But not in this case. Not in this case. He doesn't want anybody to find out about it. This is like Nixon in the tapes. And this is a guy

condescending to his own people. I created, Maga, what? You created? Oh, I created Frankenstein. So he's going to obey me. I created Frankenstein. So he's going to obey me now. No, he's not. Because of Ankenstein is self-created in many ways. The people out there on the far right are on the far right before Trump ever got there.

And they have a real suspicion of power. And they think rich people, people with cultivated tastes, get away with stuff in a million years they would go to jail for. And it's not just immoral. It's illegal. It's, as Amika said, you're talking about mistreating, you know, sub-teenage, early teenage. When you say the picture of the prince with that young woman, imagine the world that she was being introduced to. Who was talking to her and telling her what to do and how to behave and what to put up with?

You know, that's a horrible world out there. It's a horrible world. And Trump knows that world. He knows, quote, he knows about the girls. What a sentence. What does that mean? Yeah, and David Drucker, again, the Maga Bay. So imagine if the Maga Bay.

had seen Joe Biden called somebody in to vote to suppress the Epstein files, took a Democrat into the situation room, and sat them with Attorney General Merritt Garland and FBI Director Ray. And they lobbied this Democratic Congresswoman to not release the files. I mean, that is it would it would still be leading every podcast in america today but how extraordinary that that's exactly what the trump administration did they called the republican congresswoman into the situation room at the white house into the situation room and well we and and and and and then had the attorney general and the fbi director lobby a Congresswoman on a legislative matter regarding a discharge petition for the MAGA base.

This is the worst case scenario of billionaires trying to protect other billionaires. Yeah, quite a situation. Look, I've never given much thought to this conspiracy because if the government was competent enough to pull something like this off and hide things, imagine the little things that could get right. But the way the president is acting here is why everybody is asking, you know, what his involvement is. All he had to say was, hey, I said we were going to expose this. We're in charge. This is amazing. Sign me up. I'm the first vote. I mean, he can't vote, but you see what I'm saying here. And he's created the division within his party.

The other thing here that is a huge problem for Republicans is that this, issue is really not political, right? I mean, this is the kind of thing. When I talk to, you know, friends and family and people who don't follow politics as closely as we have to, they're like, what about that Epstein thing, right? This is just one of those topics that grabs everybody's interest. And so there's just no escaping it. There's no pinning it on the Democrats who, it should be said, have had the good political sense to take a hold of this and force Republicans to deal with it, which is not something that they did over the past several years. And so now, you know, now we're going to see exactly how this plays out.

It's going to be a real live wire in the Senate, where I think you're going to see some senators really hesitant to cross the president on this, but others, you know, realizing that this thing is far beyond their control and they don't want to end up on the wrong side of especially staring down the next two elections. Well, and as I've said, a lot of people have said, there's no grand conspiracy here. But Donald Trump's making it look like a conspiracy. And as we've said time and again, NBC News is reported.

And, you know, Kendallanian's reported and Tom Winter's reported that Donald Trump's not on the list, right? And so we keep hearing that, which really has Washington asking the question, well, if he's not on the list, then who is he protecting? And why in the world is he going through all of this if, in fact, NBC reporting shows that he's not on Epstein's list? And who wouldn't want to get all the answers necessary about what rich and powerful men were involved in a wide-ranging pedophilia operation? I mean, that's a pretty simple one plus one equals two.

And also what also added to the drama, not just, you know, the White House focusing in on Lauren Bo Burt and other actions to try and prevent this information from coming out seemingly. But all this time, seven weeks, 50 days to push off the swearing in of a congresswoman who is the last vote to get that petition through, that built up the drama and the intrigues as to what the heck is in there. Well, and that's the thing. I mean, you talk to any crisis management expert, they'll tell you, Get it out there. Get it behind you. Move on. And that's, we see time and time again, politicians making the mistake. I thought Hillary Clinton in the 2016 campaign. I remember she gave a speech at the United Nations, went out, held a press conference. And if she had gotten all of that server stuff behind her right there, it would have been a completely different

campaign. Instead, it followed her throughout the entire campaign at the end of the campaign. And you look back, yeah, well, it's not as bad as what, you know, so Donald Trump's doing or not as bad as what other, but she didn't get in front of it. And here we have Donald Trump doing the same thing. Again, NBC News reporting, he's not on the list. So why is he doing this in a way that's making him take on all this political water? It just doesn't make sense. Putting all the Republicans in this position. So Chris Matthews, thank you, as always, for coming on the show this morning. Chris's new book, Lessons from Bobby, Ten Reasons, Robert F. Kennedy, still matters. That book is out now. Von Hilliard, thank you as well, and still ahead on Morning Joe. Lawyers for former FBI

Director James Comey and New York Attorney General Letitia James were in court yesterday, trying to get the federal cases against them thrown out. MSNBC senior legal reporter Lisa Rupin joins us next to go over what happened in the courtroom. But before we go to break, let's get a check on the traveler's forecast with Acuweather's Bernie Rayno. Bernie. How's it looking this morning? Happy Friday, Mika, and the weather word today is tranquil, although there can be a couple of showers across northern New England. Chile and Boston, 46 degrees, your acuether exclusive forecast in New York City, 51. How about sunshine and 83 degrees in Dallas and 73 in Atlanta? And no weather-related flight delays along the East Coast today.

To help you make the best decisions and be more in the know, make sure to download the Accuather App today. 34 past the hour of beautiful look at Capitol Hill as the sun comes up over Washington. A federal judge could decide within the next few weeks if the federal cases against former FBI director James Comey and New York Attorney General Letitia James should be dismissed. lawyers for both Comey and James argued in court yesterday that the cases against them should be dropped because the appointment of the new interim U.S. attorney who charged them was illegal. Let's bring an MSNBC senior legal reporter and former litigator Lisa Rubin. She was in the courthouse yesterday as the hearing took place.

And Lisa, of course, never, I speak for everybody. I'm not talking to you. Never try to guess how a judge is going to rule. Never try to guess how a jury is going to rule. that said dot dot dot you you had a you had a you had a judge yesterday who seemed to be very skeptical of many things that miss halligan did and skeptical that she should remain on the case what what was your takeaway and when should we expect a ruling so let's start with the second one first we should expect a ruling according to judge curry sometime before

Thanksgiving. That is not necessarily before all of the remaining arguments in this case that could get rid of the case on other grounds, but it looks like she's trying to issue a ruling before the actual judges in each of the Comey and James cases have to confront those motions and rule on them because she knows that if she were to dismiss the indictments, sort of obviates the need for either of these judges to, for example, consider the selective and vindictive prosecutions that each of them have made. But let's go back, Joe, to the substance of this, if we can. This was a very sharp judge who asked some really interesting questions. And I thought the most interesting things she did was at the very beginning and at the very end. And then we'll get

to the sort of like eye popper in the middle. The first question she asked the defense was whether they have in their possession something called a declination memo. A declination memo is what prosecutors write when they say they don't believe that the pursuit of the case is in the interest of justice and they lay out in some laborious detail their reasons for why we know in this case based on public reporting as did the judge that there was a declination memo with respect to jim combe the defense doesn't have it but in asking whether they had possession of it what i think she was doing is zeroing in on sort of a retort to an argument that the government was making, which is if something went wrong here in the appointment of Lindsey Halligan, it was nothing

but a paperwork error. That statutorily, we followed the law to a T, that we had the right to successive 120-day interim appointments of U.S. attorneys, we can continue that at infinitum if we want to. And her response to that, by asking about the declination memo, I think she means to say this was, A, not a paperwork error, this was pursued very deliberately because you knew that the people you had in place didn't want to pursue this case. But it was also a, you know, whatever it was, a paperwork error, a deliberate obfuscation of the law. It had real consequences here for Jim Comey, who's now a criminal defendant, as opposed to a person who would have walked free with respect to Eric Siebert in his regime. So we'll certainly be keeping an eye on that as

develops. Lisa, let's turn to another matter. A seemingly favorite tactic from the Trump administration is to claim mortgage fraud, in particular saying, hey, you're claiming something as your prior residence when it's not. We've seen that with Patricia James, others. The latest name to that list, Congressman Eric Swalwell from California, housing, federal housing and finance agency director, Bill Pulte, send a letter to the Attorney General this week with a criminal referral for Swalwell. Swalwell, as everyone knows, an outspoken critic of Trump.

So this seems to be just the latest example of retribution of using the federal government to target political foes? What's the latest we know about this case? We haven't seen the letter yet. In MSNBC, I don't believe, has independently confirmed that the letter has been sent. This is based on reporting from other outlets. That having been said, our friend Jake Sherman made such a good point yesterday, which is if you're going to target people for primary residence mortgage fraud, members of Congress are universally almost vulnerable to that charge, because many of them own homes in both the districts that they represent and in Washington, D.C., and particularly in the case of younger members with young

families, many of them move their families to Washington, D.C., have their children go to school there and maintain a smaller residence in their home state for the purposes of continuing to represent the district in a lawful way. But his point was, like, Eric Swalwell cannot be unique here. And so if and when we see charges against Eric Swalwell that emanate from this referral, count on his lawyers to make a very, very, I think, robust claim of selective prosecution. Selective prosecution as opposed to vindictive is, you're treating me differently than everybody else who's similarly situated. And I think given just the way that members of Congress run their lives, that would be a very compelling argument for someone like Eric Swalwell to make.

And Lisa, before you go, we want to turn back to our top story, of course, the latest with the Jeffrey Epstein matter. And you, during the break, highlighted something interesting. George Conway, a familiar face to viewers here, posted something on Twitter, and he got a personal response from a deputy attorney general Todd Blanche, who in this post addresses the meeting he had with Galane Maxwell a few months ago that raised so many eyebrows that he had this one-on-one meeting with her at this prison in Florida. Shortly thereafter, she got transferred to a much cushier setup in Texas. But in this tweet, he notes that when he interviewed Maxwell, quote, law enforcement didn't have the material. that Epstein's estate had for years and just now providing the Congress. So that, which is interesting, that there's really separate what DOJ or Congress already have and the Epstein estate may still have some other stuff.

Perhaps even that explains why President Trump is acting the way he does, is because he doesn't know all the, what's in all of these materials that the estate has. Yes, and let's remember, first of all, the way that DOJ got many of his materials was through two raids on Epstein's home, one in New York, one in the Virgin Islands. But we already know that, for example, during the raid of the New York home, one of the things they left behind was the now infamous birthday book. So it's totally conceivable to me that in those raids, DOJ left other things behind, too, that are now in the possession of the estate and ripe for turning over to the House Oversight Committee pursuant to its subpoenas. So we have to look at these things as overlapping buckets, but not completely concentric circles. Here's one where I actually believe Todd Blanche that there's lots of things that are in the Epstein estate's possession that will or have been turned over to Congress that no one in the administration has ever seen.

And that might explain Donald Trump's behavior as of late, Jonathan. All right, MSNBC senior legal reporter Lisa Rubin, thank you very much for your analysis this morning. And coming up, we're not done with 2025 just yet, but the economist is, no, we're not. It just keeps going. Keeps on, keeping on. The economist, though, is already taking a look ahead to 2026, but it's annual top trends. This is my favorite. So smart.

Do you think rat infestation of buildings in Midtown? We're not going to have that anymore. We'll be one of the trends? We're not going to have that anymore. We're breaking free. Anyhow, the top trends and themes to watch in the coming year is next. You ever see the movie Willard? I did.

You know, the rats take up. It gets very fun. frightening. Okay, we'll be right back. Escaping that, thank God. ...Jetts back here, turning inside, spinning his way,

all the way into the end zone is Henderson for the touchdown. Ben Brown comes in as an eligible offensive lineman to the outside and cutting through and going all the way to the end zone is Trivion Henderson. That time

in motion with a good crack block. Second and five. Pumpfake throws open core. Touchdown. The Hattrick for Henderson. The Patriots is easily handling their division rival

the New York Jets with their eighth straight win. Giving the best record in the league at 9 and 2. The Patriots are just the fourth team in the past 25 years doing nine of their first 11 games after having four or fewer wins the previous season. And I will say, Pablo, first of all, I pronounce your name so weirdly. I'm not sure why. You know what?

I do, Bob. I appreciate the artistic interpretation of my alter ego. Calls me, Micah. I do call her, I call her Meeker. Meeker. Come here, me. That's what they called me when I was growing up, please. Oh, meker. Yeah.

Really? Did they really? Meekers. So anyway, getting back to the point. I will say, the Jets, with two wins, the first half of the game last night, they looked pretty good. There were glimmers of hope for the team, but at the end of the day, the Patriots just overwhelmed them. Yeah, look, I come up for air, and I meet you guys. having been submerged in sports world.

And I'm looking for ways to be sarcastic about the Patriots because I sit next to John the mirror. Don't do it. And it's really tough these days. It's just really tough. Oh, really? Because, you know, I mean, you look at their record. It's been the easiest record in the NFL.

You look at who they're playing down the stretch. It's the easiest record in the NFL. I mean, I'm looking at it last night. They play the Jets again. Play a lot of bad teams. I don't know how they slipped in the Nutley Maroon Raiders, but they are going to be going out. They are, the Patriots is going to be coming back down to Jersey again.

It is a road game. And let me tell you something, my friend. If you're in Nutley on a Friday night, you better buckle up that chin strap because the Maroon Raiders come after you. Those tight ends can block. Oh, they really can, man. You know what they call that? They call that Nutley Strong.

I mean, they will, they will, they'll manhandle the paths. But that said, I'm afraid, are. dear friend John may be getting set up for the fall because, I mean, I'm excited about the Patriots, but Pablo, their schedule this year has been so light. Well, here's the thing that I find hard to square is I want to make fun of every team, and I will, and I do. Right. Of course you do. But, but, but, but in this time that we're living in, John, where it's the land of the blind,

you guys have one eye and it looks like you're king right now. And that's the story of mediocre season, as we always say. Right. And that's where we are right now is it's sort of a down year for the NFL. It's a lot of parity. And like, look, yes, the Patriots have had an easy schedule. They didn't make it. They just play it.

And they're winning every game. And yeah, they have a couple tough games to go. They still have to play the bills again. They have to go to Baltimore. That's a tough game. They've got a couple others. But you're right. Even when they go to Nutley, when they're at Nutley, they'll be a pack, a pocket of fans chanting MVP for Drake May,

who has been spectacular this year. And Trayvon Henderson, the rookie, three touchdowns last night. So, yeah, what I would have pressed me about last night is, and again, the Jets are no good. We get that. But the Pats just took care of business. It was a workman-like victory. The Jets had a very good first drive,

really impressive first drive, where they took like eight minutes off the clock. They ran the ball down the Pats' throats. The Pats didn't give them much after that. And they win, nine and two, and they keep rolling. I'm telling you something here they are not the lions who started out one and six

but you can look at football teams until when their change is going about and again I thought the Jets showed a little bit of fight last night and I'm not so sure they're not with a couple of good graphics I'm not so sure the Jets over the next year or two

yeah they well yeah I guess so hurts me to say it they may they may need a quarterback but they seem to be coming along a bit Oh, look, the jets are ambulatory. They're walking around. They're alive. They're there. Can we get a prediction, though, from John Lemire? Because I do think, Joe, you raised a good point.

I mean, we've said on this program before that this is an MVP frontrunner in Drake May. This is one of the proud dynasties in recent American sports history. I feel like it's, what? Is it AFC title game or bust? I feel like that would be disappointing at this point if you guys didn't make the AFC title game. I don't actually think so because they're a year ahead of schedule. And they had so much cat space to use this off season. No, no, no, no.

Look, they're a plow team. This is just like the Yankees. Why did we say about the Yankees? If they didn't beat the Dodgers and five games, their entire season was busted. Here, I've got to say, if you guys don't get to the Super Bowl going away, the whole season is a bust. I mean, every New England fan should hang their,

head in shame. So, yeah, no, you guys have to get the Super Bowl are out. Yeah, I mean, seriously, I mean, the legacy, the proud legacy, you know, again, I'm not saying the Nutley Maroon Raiders won't be tough because, you know, they usually, when they give out tickets, it's like a 90-10. So you're going to have a little slice of Pats fans, you know, and Nutley that Friday night and it can get frightening. But, no, you, I do agree, though, this has been the, there's been a bizarre year in the NFL, the parody, I don't like it. I just don't like it. Seriously, it's socialism. It's socialism

for my ball. It's Mamdani's New York. That's right. If everybody's equal, then, you know, nobody's equal, or whatever, whatever you would say. Well, I almost are equal, but some are more equal than others, I believe, is the quote. Then why are the rich more equal than us? But anyway, the Patriots, I do agree

they could actually go deep into the playoffs just because they're no good Like the bills, the bills have already lost them up. Exactly. Yeah. Well, I'm looking at the cult. Okay, let's just do this very quickly, right?

So top the standings, here we go. Patriots in the AFC East, the Colts in the AFC South, the Steelers at 5 and 4 top the AFC North, Denver at 8 and 2, top the AMC West. And then in the NFC, we got the Eagles, 7 and 2, Tampa 6 and 3, Detroit 6 and 3, Seattle, 7, and 2. None of these are particularly scary. At all. You can't, you can't just beat.

the Raiders 10 to 7 and you know I said the Broncos could go to the Super Bowl after that game yeah that they just don't have it I will tell you there is one sleeper team right there that you didn't mention and it's Baltimore the Ravens

could actually catch you know Baltimore could actually healthy Lamar yeah a team with something to prove they're going to go past the Steelers most likely and I don't know John what do you think? Could they end up

finally getting to the Super Bowl? I agree that the Ravens are going to pass the Steelers and they'll win that division. I mean, the other team, we should never could bury the Chiefs. They're still in the mix too. And then we'll see if the bills can fix things, because that's the other team here that went into this year with such Super Bowl aspirations and they just have a great all seasons.

They haven't looked at great all season. How do you get crushed by the dolphins? No, I mean, the dolphins have actually played weirdly better of late, but yes, I agree. Every team looks, every team, Mika, as you well know, every team. She says it all the time. Very flawed this year. And that's why, even though I do think the Pats are your way, you start to dream. Because they're 9 and 2, they're going to have

home playoff games. And if they stay hot, and Drake May's, Drake May is throwing the ball that well. We'll see. Pablo, I'm telling you, Miki gets so disgusted. She sits down, she watches, she'll always watch the first game, one to four. And we're watching on YouTube with Jack and everything. But she gets through her second pack of cigarettes. And after you see the bills and other people doing terrible, she, she just puts it out. He said, now. I'm out of here. And she goes bowling. It's just, it's, you know, I'm familiar. I'm familiar. You know, can I just leave you with one note about the head coach of the Patriots? So when Mike Vrable, oh, he's great. When he was with the Titans, John, he made a very, I would say, conspicuous show of his commitment to a Super Bowl or bust mentality. He said he would cut off a certain body part in order to make the Super Bowl. And I will just leave America at whatever time it is right now. Pinky. 6.56 a.m. Eastern.

Feel free to find out which body part. With that. No. That's what's on the line. Van Gogh. All right. I'm going to put an end to this. Still like,