Morning Joe - Trump to meet leaders of Ukraine, Syria at NATO Summit

Episode Date: July 6, 2026

July 6, 2026 - 8am: Trump traveling to Turkey for the annual NATO Summit Crowds gather in Iran for funeral of late Supreme Leader Trump to AXIOS: Netanyahu to visit White House New report finds investors of President Trump's crypto coin largely suffered losses Rep. Haley Stevens on her upcoming Michigan Democratic Primary race for U.S. Senate Co-authors Ami-Fields Meyer and Julia Angwin join to discuss their new book, "On Courage: How to be a Dissident in an Age of Fear"  To listen to this show and other MS podcasts without ads, sign up for MS NOW Premium on Apple Podcasts. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Communism is a loser and it always will be. The communist system is the opposite of the American system and the communist system has never worked. Our warriors did not fight communism on battlefields across the world only to have that menace rear its ugly head right back here in America. We're not going to let it happen. We'd like to stop a threat like that immediately and before it begins, just like a cancer.

You've got to cut it out. out, you've got to cut it out fast. And Intel came in. They had a problem. I said, I can solve you a problem, but I want 10% of the company. They said, what? I said, I want 10% of the company, and he agreed to. And the

stock has gone through. So I think we made $60 or $70 billion in eight months. Do I get credit for that? No. Somebody said, that's not very American. I said, no, I think it is very American, actually. President Donald Trump in his July 4th address,

railing against the threat of communism just days after defending a tactic of his administration, the critics have described as socialism. Good morning and welcome to morning, Joe. We hope you had a wonderful 4th of July, a wonderful holiday weekend. It is now Monday, July 6th. We're back to work. I'm Jonathan Lemire, in for Joe Mika and Willie. And with us, we now have columnist and associate editor at the Washington Post, David Ignatius, MS Now, senior national secure reporter, David Road, MS Now contributor, Elise Jordan, and MS now Senior Capitol Hill Reporter, and you just saw her hosting way too early, Ali Vitale. Our thanks to all of you.

Great group to get us started. We have a lot to get to. It's a very busy Monday morning. Again, with President Trump traveling to Turkey later today for the annual NATO summit, a gathering of leaders from the alliance. The president, of course, has long criticized and at times threatened to outright abandon. Trump is expected to push members to enforce their pledge from last year's summit to step up defense spending, a frequent grievance of the president toward the alliance. Trump is also expected while there to meet with Ukrainian president Volodemir Zelensky as well as with Syria's new president.

The war in Ukraine will likely be a key focus at the summit this week. Early today, on the eve of this gathering, Russia mounted its second major attack on Kiev in less than a week. firing ballistic missiles toward the Ukrainian capital and killing at least 11 people, according to Ukrainian officials. Let's get started by bringing in MS Now international reporter Inez de la Quatera, who joins us live from Ankara Turkey. Inez set the scene for us there on the ground ahead of tomorrow summit. Iran, of course, will be a topic of conversation, but now also Ukraine.

Good morning, John, from Ankara, where you may be able to hear the calls. call to prayer going off here. But yes, one of the big points of focus is going to be President Trump calling for allies to ramp up their defense spending. We know that was a big win for him last year when he got allies to commit to spending 5% of their GDP on spending. So this year, you're going to see allies trying to prove that they are doing just that. We know that has been a big point of frustration for President Trump. He's talked about it time and time again. And just last week on Truth Social again, he said that it was ridiculous for the U.S. to maintain its relationship with NATO. He says it's a one-sided relationship because he says that NATO didn't

show up for the U.S. in its war with Iran. So I think that's going to be a big point of conversation. We also got a briefing from the U.S. ambassador to NATO, Matt Whitaker, who said that was very much going to be something Trump is going to talk about, that, you know, he's going to get allies to get on the road to 5 percent, and he's going to do that with urgency. So that's something we're watching. We are also watching Ukraine. Like you mentioned, We know President Trump has said he wants to now resolve the situation in Ukraine now that he feels that he has made progress on Iran. We know he spoke with the Ukrainian President Zelensky over the weekend. Zelensky saying that they had a very good conversation.

Trump also spoke with Putin. They had a lengthy phone call, roughly 90 minutes. And this comes, as you mentioned, as Russia has really been ramping up its air attacks on Ukraine. We know overnight there were 68 missiles fired at Kiev, 350. drones, at least 14 people killed, and over 100 people wounded. And I will say that's not coincidental that that is happening right before this NATO summit gets underway. We saw the same thing happening right before the G7 summit with Russia striking Ukraine on

the eve of that summit as well. So Russia, they are clearly trying to send the message that, you know, they still have the upper hand. They want to counter this narrative that they're not doing so well on the battlefield. And then just lastly, you know, something else we're watching. I think when you look at President Trump's personal relationship with world leaders here, The relationship with Georgia Maloney is going to be a very awkward one. We know they have been feuding.

This will be the first time they come face to face since President Trump claimed that she begged him for a photo at the G7 summit. She says that's completely false. And again, over the weekend, President Trump mocking the Italian prime minister. MS now international reporter, Enesla Quatera reporting live from us at the summit site in Turkey. And as thank you so very much. David Ignatius, let's turn to you here. First, let's talk about Ukraine. Certainly the headlines have been very bad for Russia in recent weeks,

a real sense that Ukraine has some momentum here. They've shown the ability and willingness to strike deep within Russia's territory. But as and as just said, Russia tends to try to undercut these summits, both with violence, strikes at Keev, but also President Putin calling President Trump and clearly trying to butter him up and remind them of their allegedly great relationship. Do we anticipate any progress here at this summit? Boy, progress is not a word that fits easily with Ukraine. But I think we're coming to a real crunch point in Ukraine.

Putin's forces are increasingly embattled, cornered almost on the ground. Ukraine's mastery of drone technology has made it almost impossible for the Russians to advance their death and wounded rate every month approaches 40,000. It's just a bloodbath for the Russians in Ukraine. and increasingly Russia is getting hit hit at home. It's power facilities, its electrical heat grid, are all now targets of Iranian-Ukrainian deep strikes. So I think Putin is getting more and more concerned. What I'm beginning to hear from Western officials

is a concern that Putin, feeling backed against the wall, may strike out in some way against other European NATO countries, that this is a period where NATO, as a group, has to be concerned about becoming a target of Putin as he seeks to escalate his way out of a crisis where he's not winning this war. So he's doing two things. He's bombing Kiev as hard as he can. Last night was another example of that. He hit last week, last Thursday, terrible loss of life in Kiev, a new level of intensity of bombing.

Plus, this threat that he may try to do something. across the border in the Baltic Republics elsewhere along the front line. So it's a period where Trump is going to have to stand with the NATO alliance that he's not all that comfortable with unless he's going to otherwise are going to show real weakness to Putin. And at least, I mean, NATO has remained remarkably unified here about the war in Ukraine, despite Trump's efforts to undercut it. There will be a lot of tension at this meeting.

there always is. And this is just we should always remind viewers. The one time that the Article 5 self-defense pact was enacted in NATO was the rest of the alliance coming to the United States as aid after September 11th. And for years, staying in Afghanistan as part of the war and the reconstruction effort. So NATO here looks pretty good. It really seems to be the United States that we're the outliers in how we discuss the war in Ukraine. And David, I want to hear about this briefing call. You were on with the White House yesterday because it's dramatically different. Their readout of what's happening on the battlefield was so different from a political national

security analyst who speak about this war. Yeah, I was surprised. And as David said, there are signs here that Ukraine is doing better than it has in this entire war. There are gas lines of, you know, forming all across Russia at this point. Putin's under a lot of pressure. And by some measures, they're actually taking territory for the first time. So there was reporters on this call with two U.S. officials yesterday. The first question was, will Greenland be brought up? And the answer from the U.S. officials was the best way to resolve

Greenland is for the United States to acquire it. That's not going to go over well with the Europeans. The next question was essentially, and I asked a question about, has momentum changed? You know, do you see that the Ukrainians are graining ground? And that's amazing these drone strikes in Moscow. the answer from one of the U.S. officials was, nope, the front lines have been frozen for the last two months, no progress. And I try to frame my question is, is this a moment for the U.S. to sort of join Europe and pressuring Putin to end this war? You know, you have this momentum now. And the answer was essentially no, and that the U.S. is still considering withdrawing U.S. troops from Europe at a time when Vladimir Putin is growing weaker. And just one broad point on the cooperation of the U.S. war with Iran, as the NATO Secretary General pointed out, there were four. to 5,000 U.S. flights, military flights from Europe during the Iran war. This narrative that Europe wasn't somehow supporting the U.S. and actually all countries in NATO are now meeting the 2% goal. The Nordic countries are in Germany or are on their on track to hit the 5% spending goal. To Trump's credit, you know, he's got them to spend more money. That's all progress. You're not

going to hear that from Donald Trump, I think, in Ankara. And those European leaders, of course, weren't consulted about the Iran war. They didn't want. that war to happen, yet they did in some limited way, mostly, help out. And Joe and I talk about this in the show all the time. It is remarkable how the White House is so out of step seemingly with reality about how that war in Russia is going. They simply refuse to acknowledge that Moscow does not necessarily have the upper hand. Tough on Europe, easy on Putin. It's that simple. And so it was quite surprising. And just completely misreading European domestic politics, just to mention Merlone was critical.

It's a political suicide for her to do anything and to cooperate in any way with Donald Trump because he's so incredibly unpopular in Europe right now. All right, more on Iran now. Crowds of mourners are still flooding the streets of that country today for the funeral procession of the late Supreme Leader Akamani, who was killed in an air strike at the U.S. and Israel launched that war with Iran

back in the last days of February. Video shows the late leader's flagdraped coffin on board a truck as it makes its way through the streets of Texas. Tehran lined with thousands of Iranians waving flags while dressed in black. Iranian media reports that millions are attending the largest public gathering in the country's modern history. Khamani's body will be transported to several cities across the country and into neighboring Iraq before he is buried in his hometown.

The farewell to the Supreme Leader is a multi-day event with scores of people already packing into squares across Tehran over the weekend. Some carrying signs and chanting slogans. threatening to avenge his death. The late leader's son and his successor has still not been publicly seen since his father's killing. There's been reporting that he was badly wounded and also, of course, remaining hiding for security purposes.

So David Ignatius, I mean, among those chants this weekend, lots of the old classic death to America, certainly, you know, despite President Trump claiming that a new, more moderate, more reasonable people are in charge there in Tehran. The anti-American sentiment remains strong. And this funeral comes as a real rallying point, perhaps, for the Iranians, at a moment of real impasse in these negotiations where Iran, again over the weekend, made clear that in terms of the Strait of Hormuz, it's either going to be their way or no way. The funeral, to me, Jonathan, was a reminder that an aging leader,

Ali Khomeini, widely believed to be in the last years of his life, presiding over a country that was increasingly fragmented. In this martyrdom and death, it seems to be bringing Iran back together around the hardest-line people. In other words, we've gone from a situation in which change in Iran might have been possible to one in which change in Iran seems. less possible. In other words, pretty much the opposite of the outcome, the U.S. and its allies would have desired. So watching the pictures from Tehran, this mass gathering, it's hard to come to any

other conclusion. We'll see whether the Iranians really are prepared to negotiate an opening to the Strait of Hormuz. That's really happening on a separate template. But watching those street scenes, you get a sense the country through this war has pulled together in a way that didn't seem likely when the war started February 28. And of course, there are open questions about if you went from a hardline regime to a harder line regime in the aftermath of the U.S. starting that war with Iran. You know, one of the pieces that's being discussed during these ceasefire negotiations are what happens in Lebanon.

That's something the Iranians have said they need a full peace deal there in order to proceed to a peace with the U.S. And that makes it more interesting, as President Trump told Axios on Saturday, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu asked for a White House meeting and that it could take place as early as next week after Trump returns from the NATO summit. In a brief phone call, the president told Axios, quote, we get along very good. Netanyahu knows who the boss is, of course, referring to himself. And David Rode, we have seen the U.S. and Israel begin the Iran conflict together, but knowing

that their interests would diverge in the region, we've obviously hit that point. but what might this meeting look like, especially as Netanyahu seeks to look on the world stage, but then also assuage his own domestic political concerns with an election looming there? I think it'll look very warm. That's what helps Netanyahu, and I think Trump is happy to do that. But the reality around the scenes is that, so this MOU that was signed that started the 60-day window for the second round of negotiations, that was signed. I just checked on June 17th. So we're approaching this Wednesday will be four weeks of those talks. That as far as I can tell, I have gone absolutely nowhere. They've gotten more complicated.

The Iranians are moving the goalposts. They're demanding that Israeli forces withdraw from southern Lebanon. Netanyahu can't do that. That would be political suicide for him in Israel. And as was mentioned earlier, you know, Iran is demanding now, you know, fees in the strait and control of it. So this whole plan in terms of the long term, the impact of war and then the negotiations now, I don't think it's going well for Israel or for the U.S.

at this point. Coming up, our next guest is running for U.S. Senate and Michigan. Congresswoman, Haley Stavons, joins us after a big shakeup over the weekend in that Democratic primary. That conversation straight ahead here on Morning Joe. The reflecting pool has been a big success, and we've got a very, you know, the 340 million people in this country that are celebrating 250. We did have a few vandals, but all that's going to be repairable, and that will all be fixed in the coming weeks as we go forward. The actual cuts that were made into the industrial liner. And that's a, you know, been measured out.

So that's just a fact that that's what we've got to go back in. There's a 350-foot gash? Well, it's multiple gashes that add up to 350 feet across that. And so, and again, some of this happened early on. There was a, where we've installed more cameras. I mean, we weren't expecting that we were going to have a small group of people that wanted to try to destroy. effectively what is part of the Lincoln Memorial.

Okay, that was Interior Secretary Doug Bergam on ABC yesterday, doubling down on President Trump's claim that vandals have damaged a Lincoln Memorial reflecting pool amid a $16 million renovation. Bergam also claimed the landmark, which was closed for the July 4th fireworks display on Saturday, is crystal clear and free of algae. We should note there have been formal charges now against some of the people accused of vandalism of the reflecting pool. There's been no evidence whatsoever presented that actually occurred. At least this has been such a boondoggle for Trump and really an on the nose metaphor for how things

are going for his administration right now to no big contract that went way over budget. It is, you know, something he shouldn't have even done in the first place. Didn't need to touch it. Why mess up the algae that was going already? Right. The water was green. The water was green and then now it's been being patrolled by a federal law enforcement. I mean, it's just a disaster. Well, I mean, if that's what you want your National Guard and your federal law enforcement doing, monitoring who's touching the reflecting pool now, if that's the level that we're at for this national security state apparatus that Trump has built, I guess we're there. You know, that's it is what it is.

What do you make of it? I'm just surprised. And what's strange is the Bergam talked about now they've got all these cameras installed there. It's just like, we'll show us the evidence of these people making repeated cuts for 350. feet and they just don't, it seems, have any evidence. It's a strong, look, it's classic thing. It's distraction. It's blaming vandals, I guess, blaming the far left, but this is the project has not

worked. No, and no evidence supported. And President Trump's hopes for the July 4th 250 celebrations. We did not quite pan out. Extreme heat in D.C. storms as well. Crowds not nearly what he anticipated despite his defensiveness on truth social. Meanwhile, there's a new report that found that investors of the president's crypto coin largely suffered losses, even as Trump's financial disclosures revealed that he earned $1.4 billion

from crypto-related ventures. The cryptocurrency analytics firm Nansen was able to trace transactions of Trump's meme coin through a digital ledger or, you know, a blockchain. The firm found that at the end of last month, nearly 990,000 buyers of the meme coin have lost money. that's equal to two out of every three buyers. That makes for a total loss of $3.8 billion. As a Friday, the coin is trading at less than $2, down 97% from its peak of $75. But not everyone was a loser.

About 500,000 buyers profited from the meme coin, making a total of $4 billion. Nansen found that this figure, quote, reflects a small number of early buyers capturing enormous gains while the broad retail majority absorbed the losses. And Trump's own disclosure forms released last week showed that he also made money at least $635 million from the sale of his meme coin. Trump also co-founded a crypto startup with his sons called World Liberty Financial and reported earnings at least $525 million.

from token sales through that company. But Nansen's analysis of publicly traceable transactions related to World Liberty Financial found that 85% of those who invested with the company recorded losses, and they totaled $83 million. Meanwhile, former Republican governor of New Jersey, Chris Christie, had this to say about Trump's financial disclosures. He and his family believe they are in. entitled to this. This is an entitlement to them. They believe when they came back and won this

election the second time, that that gave them license, that the American people gave them license to essentially go and take whatever they could take over this period of time. And quite frankly, when you look at the scale of this, here's another thing, apparently, that Donald Trump learned from Vladimir Putin during his first term. This is Putin-esque type of corruption and self-enrichment. Every time he says one of those things, the ballroom won't cost anybody anything. Now we're talking about them wanting to move a billion dollars to work on the ballroom. So, you know, the American people are starting to catch up to this.

You can feel it. Governor Christie on ABC yesterday in Allie, I mentioned the reflecting pool as an on-the-nose metaphor for the Trump administration. So is this. So is this meme coin debacle where the vast majority of people, the supporters, Americans, probably many of whom, you know, don't have a lot of extra money laying around, invested in this and lost, while Trump and a small set of his rich friends and family, it appears, made a whole lot of money. I mean, look, it's great work if you can get it.

In this instance, great if you can invest in something that you're one of the people who makes a buck off of. I think this, what I think about it from a political standpoint, David, is a clear underscoring of why the Democratic message going into the midterms is the haves and the have-nots, the people who the system works for and who can work it to their advantage, and the people like the regular American public who cannot, who are still worried about the cost of their groceries, the cost of their gasoline, even if prices are coming down. And I think that fits the domestic political moment. But then you pivot to some of the national security concerns that have been pervasive, frankly, since these things like the meme coins and others first came on the market, the questions about, are there foreign investors as part of this? Where is the transparency?

and what are they paying money into for and what are they getting for it, which of course brings us back to the corruption that Governor Christie was talking about there. And so I wonder how you're making sense of this from a global landscape and from a national security perspective. So, Alec, corruption is a powerful issue everywhere in the world. You think of Victor Orban and Hungary. What really swept him from power, and remember, he was a White House favorite, was a perception throughout his country that he was corrupt, that he was self-dealing, his responsibility.

friends were getting rich and the average person in Hungary was not. And I think there's beginning to be a sense in the United States that people are being in effect taken for a ride here when you have a situation where the people issuing these Trump meme coins end up with billions, including the president and his family, and the people who buy them end up suffering 87% losses. it's obvious that there's some kind of a game being played on the average person. And that begins to make people angry this sense. These people think they're better than we are. They think they're getting aware of something.

We'll have to see how that plays out. Trump has been a magician in being able to turn his life as a billionaire somehow into his life as a billionaire populace, speaking for the average guy. But I sense from what I read and what I hear that there's growing anger about the sense that this is a corrupt self-dealing administration that treats the public's property. Just look at all this stuff going on in the Capitol. Treats the White House, all these monuments as if they belong to the president. And people know they don't. Coming up, how to be a dissident in an age of fear.

Our next guests wrote the book on that and we'll get their perspectives when Morning Joe comes right. back. Welcome back. In a major shake-up for Michigan's Democratic Senate primary, state senator Mallory MacMorrow has announced that she's dropping out of the race. This leaves Congresswoman Haley Stevens and progressive candidate Dr. Abdul-El-Said as the two Democratic hopefuls fighting to replace outgoing Democratic Senator Gary Peters. It's expected to be quite the competitive August primary in a race that could play a key role in determining control of the Senate. And Congresswoman Haley Stevens joins us now. She serves on the House Committees for Education and Workforce Plus, Science, Space, and Technology. Congressman, thank you so much for joining us this morning.

Good morning to you. First, let's just get your reaction to the news. This was a tightly contested three-person race. The State Senator McMorrow is certainly someone who had created a national profile for herself in the last year. So your reaction to her deciding that she's going to be suspending your campaign? Well, State Senator McMorrow has actually been my state senator for almost a decade. And she has been a tireless fighter for Michigan. She led the charge to secure abortion rights in Michigan. She took on some of the very complex challenges of gun violence and led common sense gun safety legislation through her state capital. And she also ran a really inspiring, dedicated campaign that traveled everywhere. And I was inspired by her. And her supporters

have a home with my campaign. I'd be honored to have them join. And we've got to beat Mike Rogers. And I'm in the best position to go do that. Michigan is a swing state. If you want to lower cost, stand up for Michigan manufacturing and jobs, take on Trump's abuses of power. then I'm your Gail. Let's go win. So obviously, that's the general election. But let's start with, before you get there, let's talk a little bit about the primary here. Can you frame the contest now? What are the key differences between you and your remaining opponent, Dr. El-Sahy?

Well, look, in the House of Reps, I've been recognized as Michigan's most effective lawmaker. I take on tough challenges and I win. I'm so proud to have four-term U.S. Senator Debbie Stabenow supporting me in this race, the mayors of Grand Rapids, Lansing, and Livonia, people who fight for Michigan and win for Michigan. And I'm ready to take on these tough, complex fights in the United States Senate. Donald Trump is completely out of touch with Michigan. Look, he started a trade war with Canada. Small business revenues are down 40%.

Healthcare costs are only going up, and it's all because of the billionaire class that's trying to run our country right now. Not on my watch. I want to see us clean up Washington, banned stock trading for elected officials and candidates and the president and the vice president. Look, people are sick and tired of these abuses of power,

and I get that. But the difference between me and my last, primary opponent is I have a record. I actually have won and beaten Republicans and I have delivered for Michigan an enormous scale and I'm going to do it again. Congresswoman, one of the key contrasts of your candidacy with Dr. El-Said is your steadfast support for Israel. And he has called what Israel's conduct in the war in Gaza, he's called it genocide. And you're you have rejected that label. Do you see Israel's conduct of this war as within the law of proportionality of international

humanitarian law? Well, let me be very clear to everyone tuning in this morning that Benjamin Netanyahu and Donald Trump have not brought us closer to the goal of long-term peace. You know, that is what I have always pushed for. there is a difference between me and Abdul. I believe in a two-state solution. I want to see the people of Palestine and in Gaza live peacefully side by side the people of Israel. He cannot qualify Israel's right to exist. And look, Benjamin Netanyahu has made us less safe. He has frankly put Jews in an uncomfortable position across this country. and the world. And I'm going to stand up to him as a senator. And I'm going to also continue to stand by Jewish people, Palestinian people, and this goal of long-term peace. That's what we need to see achieved. You know, one of the things that has come up as well is, of course, this national

conversation, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, of course, supporting Dr. Syed. Al-Sayyed. And so the question I have is what does that progressive wing, the Democratic Socialist wing of the Democratic Party, what is their support signaling to you? How do you respond to that larger momentum in which Dr. Al-Sayyed is being placed inside of this wave alongside a certain ideological wing of the Democratic Party? Well, I can tell you who else is supporting Abdul's campaign, and that's Republicans. They're spending thousands of dollars right now to prop up his candidacy. to put out paid for polls. And no one wants a duel to win more than the Republicans.

And that's because they think that they can beat him in November. What they've never done is beaten me. That's the reality here that's going on. To Congress, and before we let you go, just your thoughts here about you, if Democrats are able to take control this November, What would be some of the key agenda items with President Trump still in office? Well, look, I want to lessen our dependence on China. I want to create jobs and I want to lower costs.

And I've got the legislation and the track record to do that. We also have to wake up to the fact that we have ballooning consumer debt in this country, that folks are upside down. One of the gals in my community just the other day was telling me, She's, you know, underwater at the end of every month that folks can't figure out how to pay all these bills and not go into debt. That's not right. And so, look, as the most effective lawmaker for Michigan, and you mentioned my work on the Science Committee, and I've been the most effective Democrat for science and tech issues, I'm putting Michiganders, our hard work, our work ethic at the forefront, tax. code fairness. No more tax cuts for billionaires. I'm putting you and your family first, the Michigan way.

So join our campaign. Get involved. I'm working my tail off and we're going to win in November. Democratic candidate for U.S. Senate and Michigan. Congresswoman Haley Savans, thank you for joining us this morning. And at least let's give your quick thoughts here on the race now. I mean, certainly right there, that at the end, that was a very much local populist pitch. You could see here that playing well in Michigan, but it is a complicated race. It's becoming an expensive race. It's one that has national implications. Well, I think Congresswoman Stevens does have a problem in that the electability argument

is supposedly her strength, and she's been embraced by the establishment. And outside money, she is way outspending every other candidate in the race. It was partially why Senator McMorner dropped out, according to unnamed advisors. but she's still lagging in the polls. And so is she really going to be able to take that small sliver of McMurrow support? Or is it going to actually go to El Saeed, who has momentum right now? That's what I really want. And right now what we're seeing in state after state across democratic politics,

establish figures are losing. It's the progressive candidates who have far more of the energy. Still ahead here on Morning Joe, our next two guests are out with a guide for finding courage in an age of fear. and challenging authoritarianism in order to preserve democracy. This important and timely conversation is next right here on Morning Joe. Welcome back. Last year, an essay in the New Yorker titled, So You Want to Be a Dissident, attracted national attention as a roadmap for resisting authoritarianism.

Now, the authors behind that widely popular piece are back, and they're taking that message even further with a brand new book titled On Courage, How to Be a Dissident in an Age. of fear. It's been described as a manual for political courage. It's based on more than 100 interviews with dissidents and activists worldwide, offering 16 lessons for Americans on how to defy authoritarianism in everyday life. And joining us now are the co-authors of this work, Pulitzer Prize-winning investigative journalist Julia Anguyn, and former senior policy advisor to Vice President Kamala Harris Ami Fields-Meyer. Our thanks to you both for being with us this morning.

me starting with you. Talk to us about some of the people who were in this book. And what did you, when you decided to compose a handbook, I guess, for being a dissident, who did you pick which dissidents to consult? We talked to over 100 people on five continents. And so we spoke to people from Venezuela, from Russia, from Hungary. We talked to people all over the world. And I think that it's actually important to start with talking about what a dissident is. I think Americans tend to think of a dissident as someone from another time and another place. It's people like Navalny or Mandela or Malala or these people who evoke history. We spoke to people who have defied authoritarianism in their context. And so most of the people we talk to are actually not names that folks have heard from.

These are people who, for example, a mom in Venezuela in a working class suburb who broke with the authoritarian Chavez movement, even though there were extraordinary social risks and economic risks in doing so. We spoke to people also across the United States who are standing up at universities, for example, that have stepped into coercive compacts with the Trump administration. And so what we were aiming to do, we thought that if we wrote a book about authoritarianism that's just the most courageous people, preternaturally courageous people in history, that's interesting, but not that helpful. We wanted to do people who were more like us, actually. So Julie, talk to us about those in particular in the United States at a time when so many

do fear that there is an authoritarian in the White House. Yeah, I mean, the thing about authoritarianism is it is always about lawlessness and corruption. And there are people who have been fighting that longer than just this administration, right, that that is something that is a practice. And so we wanted to highlight the people who have been fighting for their rights and for the constitution to be enforced the way that it is supposed to be. And so we have all sorts of stories of people, maybe you've not heard of, right? So we have a trans activist group that is helping to smuggle trans people out of states where they're like beings have been criminalized. They can't live there anymore. So they're helping to freely move them to other states. We talk to

people who volunteer in front of ICE detention centers, giving out water and helping the families that have to wait, eight, ten hours in the sun to try to go see. their loved ones inside. And what we found is that there's the pathway to doing this type of work is actually, it's not you woke up and you're like, I'm just feeling like courageous, beat my chest, et cetera. It's actually about caring about other people. It's about wanting to help someone who, even if you don't know them, right? And so honestly, we felt like some of the stories about dissidents are so mythologized and so heroic that they actually make it seem really unattainable. But really, if you care about your community and your neighbors, I mean, Minneapolis is such a great

example of that. That is actually what courage looks like. I mean, you've worked in politics before embarking on this journey studying dissidents and authoritarianism. I'm curious what you make of Victor Orban being ousted from power in Hungary and what you learned from the hungry example. I think it's a really important question and an instructive question for the United States. The number one thing that I get from the hungry example is that authoritarianism doesn't look like what it used to look like. It's not your grandmother's authoritarianism. This authoritarianism doesn't come in through the back of a coup. It comes in as it did in Hungary and as it has in other parts of the world through elections. And those elections and our democratic institutions get less

free and less fair and more corrupted and more hollowed out. And that's what happened there. Part of the way that Orban was ousted was through a massive coalition, a big tent, a popular front, the likes of which we're beginning to talk about in the United States on the American left. But the other major takeaway, I think, from the defeat of Victor Orban is that because authoritarianism is now gradual, because it happens slowly and over time, there are more off ramps. And so as long as the United States still has the freedoms that we have, we can look to that place as an example for how to use the liberties that we still have in order to get off the off ramp as a place. close to a place like Russia, where it's impossible to imagine the civic airspace being open enough for something like an election. You know, Julia, one of the things that I know you've covered in the past, of course, is technology.

And so I'm flipping through your book, and there is a subhead on page 98 that reads, get your neighbors in a group chat. And so when it comes to organization and how to be wary of, but also keenly strategic about technology, how would you actually practically describe that to people? Yeah, it's such a good question. I mean, I think when I started doing this reporting, I was really hoping we were going to find the magic technological bullet. Like just these five settings on your phone, you're fully safe.

And it's not quite as simple as that. But there are some things you can do to be smarter. So, for instance, you should always use encrypted chats. Secondly, you should have, you should not use the biometric face ID because the police can put a phone in front of your face and unlock it. You could use some of the best apps have cloaking so that they look like a weather app or something like that. So there's a signal has that. which is an encrypted chat, Trello, which is for taking video at a protest.

And then also get on a group chat with your friends so to keep yourself safe. Because really what it keeps you safe is other people, knowing where you are. So when you're at a protest, be in a chat with somebody. Take your film in that chat so that it's actually going to your friends and it's not stored on your camera roll. That way when your phone is taken, there's nothing on your role, but your friends have it back where they're hopefully not at the protest. And Julia, let's follow up with an important distinction here.

How one can be a dissident without resorting to political violence. Oh, yes. Such an important question. Because it turns out that violent protest is much less effective than nonviolent protest. So we look at the research from Erica Chenowith at Harvard, who has studied 100 years of protest movements. And she finds that nonviolent movements are 10 times more effective than violent movement. So whether or not you have a moral feeling about violence, the absolute truth of it is that your nonviolent movement is going to be more effective. And so it's a better tactic.

And it's really important to be disciplined because the repressive regime, any violence that is enacted by the protesters, they will use that to just delegitimize the whole movement. Oh, it's Antifa. They're violent, mobs, et cetera. And so that's where Minneapolis, again, those protesters were really disciplined. They did not commit any violence. and they were extremely nonviolent, and that actually told a narrative, right, that ultimately the administration couldn't withstand that narrative.

An important message there. The new book On Courage, How to Be a Dissident in an Age of Fear is available now. Co-authors, Julia Anguette and Ami Fieldsmeyer, thank you both very much. And Pablo, in our last 30 seconds, we return to the main event. Tonight, USA, Belgium, your thoughts going in

and it's become a very controversial game. I would like everybody to try and do the thing that this World Cup was so good at doing, which was to focus on the games instead of the noise and the political maelstrom around it. That is harder because of the news today. But remember, Flo Balligan, a birthright citizen who was only here because some flight attendant was like, you're too pregnant to fly, has now become this avatar for Americanism. And that might be the thing everybody can agree on.

Flo Balligan, as American as anybody, and it's time for him to save us as well. That game tonight, 8 o'clock Eastern. you could bet we'll be talking about it tomorrow morning 6 a.m. for the next morning, Joe. But that does it for us today. My thanks to everybody who took around. Money, power politics is up next after a short final break.