Morning Joe - Woman shot and killed by ICE agent in Minneapolis

Episode Date: January 8, 2026

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It's beyond me that apparently from the federal government, from the Homeland Security Director herself, has already determined who this person was, what their motive was, and they hadn't even been taken out of the vehicle. This is, we're not living in a normal world. Minnesota Governor Tim Walls reacting to an ICE agent shooting and killing a woman in her car. Yesterday morning in Minneapolis, we're going to go through what happened. and the response from the Trump administration, which does not fit with multiple videos recorded at the scene. Plus, we will dig into President Trump's wide-ranging interview with the New York Times, telling the paper only time we'll tell when it comes to how long the United States looks to control Venezuela. Good morning, and welcome to Morning Joe.

It is Thursday, January 8th, along with Joe Willie and me. We have the co-host of our 9 a.m. hour, staff writer at the Atlantic, Jonathan Lemire. The host of Politics Nation on MS Now, Reverend Al Sharpton. He is the president of the National Action Network. And we begin this morning in Minneapolis, where emotions are running high after that fatal shooting yesterday morning. The Minnesota Star Tribune identified the victim as Renee Nicole Good, a local resident after speaking to her mother. Good was shot in the head in a residential neighborhood, south. of downtown during an immigration crackdown. The chaotic incident was recorded by several witnesses. We're going to take you through what happened, step by step. But we do want to warn you that the video is extremely disturbing. We don't yet know exactly what happened before the video.

You will immediately see a gray SUV speed off and a gray truck pull up to the left side of the maroon SUV. Two officers get out of the truck and approach the SUV with one of them pulling on the driver's door handle. That's important. The driver then puts the car in reverse, appearing to try to turn away from the scene. And that's when another officer approaches the front of the vehicle. You'll then see the officer in front of the car fire a shot into the windshield. And as the driver continues to turn to the right, he fires two more. shots into the driver's side window as the car moves past.

He fires those shots. Do we have those shots? Do we have the slow motion going on, Alex, from the side? Because from the... It's there. Okay. The driver accelerates and moments later crashes into two cars parked near the curb and a light pole. It's not clear from the videos if the vehicle makes contact with the officer and there's no indication.

Here's the slow motion. There's the side shot. whether the woman had interactions with the ICE agents earlier. And according to Sound, and most people that have seen this, he fired two additional shots from the side at point-blank range right in to this 37-year-old mother's head, killing her. Look at this, and again, those suggesting that he was in danger of his life, let's just freeze it right there, Willie.

We're going to have experts on who know about this, but I think we all have probably read a lot of regulations on what law enforcement officers are supposed to do, what ICE officers are supposed to do. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, and any of the materials that I have seen, and if some of the law enforcement officers who come on this show, perhaps have better information

or more updated information and guidelines than me, Maybe they can share that with us, but suggests that any ICE agent has the authority to shoot at a driver in a car, an American driver in a car, or any driver in a car from the side where he is out of danger at point-blank range at their head. We're going to ask experts about that, but it seems pretty clear. The answer to that is no. The protocol does not allow for that. Well, we've heard from the administration, and we'll get through this. a couple of minutes, is that the car was weaponized, that the woman was attempted to ram those

ice agents. We're talking about this Honda pilot that was slowly turning the wheels to get out of there. We don't see any ramming, certainly in the video there. As Mika said, we want to know what happened before that because the administration is giving an account that simply doesn't line up with the video we've seen. If there's other video, if someone's seen something else, we need to see that and soon. So let's see what happens next. After the shooting, the agent who fired the shots walks up to the vehicle, then walks away telling other agents to call 911. As I said, Homeland Security. This officer's the officer that the president said was so, he was surprised he stayed alive. Right. And he's probably in the hospital right now. He doesn't look to be fine.

He doesn't look as if he's, in fact, got any problems at all with what's just happened and certainly no physical problems whatsoever. One of the reasons we're showing the video is because the administration, including Christy Noem, was so quick to say and conclude what happened here. And it's extremely disturbing video. There's blood on the ground. It's as bad as it gets. But in order to try and give this the light of day, given the conclusions that were made so quickly, the video is being shown.

Well, there are many times, and there will be some ambiguities, especially with the first shot, that I think a lot of law enforcement officers, a lot of advocates will be debating about for some time. You look at guidelines, a police officer law enforcement, it's not supposed to put themselves, place themselves in front. of a car. That's just common knowledge. I will say, though, there is no ambiguity that Christy Noe got out immediately, lied, talked about snow banks, talked about a lot of things that did not appear to be in any of these videos. And it was just this immediate reaction. The videos that are shown, clearly underlined the fact that you have someone responsible for this ultimately, that got out as quickly as she could at another event without the facts and lied to the American people. And, of course, branded this victim, this 37-year-old mother who now has

an orphaned child, a domestic terrorist, when there is no evidence of that whatsoever. It's just a bold-faced lie. And again, our viewers are watching this. along with us, you can ask yourself, in this video, what we're seeing right here, is that officer's life in danger? Is the required response here, three shots, some of them striking this woman in the head and killing her instantly? Ask yourself that question as you watch that video. And as you say, Christine Ome, the Homeland Security Secretary, jumped out immediately at a public event, drew conclusions, gave an account of what happened, followed up later by President Trump that just does not match with what we've seen or the eyewitness accounts that we've heard.

So, Secretary Nome, even as these videos of the incident were just coming out, the investigation hadn't even begun, spoke about it. It was an act of domestic terrorism. What happened was our ICE officers were out in an enforcement action. They got stuck in the snow because of the adverse weather that is in Minneapolis. They were attempting to push out their vehicle and a woman attacked them and those surrounding them and attempted to run them over and ram them with her vehicle. An officer of ours acted quickly and defensively shot to protect himself and the people around him.

And my understanding is that she was hit and is deceased. You know, everything about the fact that she was hit and she's deceased in that statement was wrong. Everything she said in that statement was wrong. It was ICE agents that came rushing up to this 37-year-old mother and immediately surrounded her, started pulling on her door, started shouting at her, one circled around to the front, which again, they're not to get in front of cars, and then fired twice at her from the video evidence we've seen, and the analysis that we've heard fired twice at her at point-blank. range while you had ice agents behind sort of running away from the shooting. Nobody was endangered there except people around the shooter who fired three gunshots on a crowded street. And again, the secretary speaking before anyone really knew anything except for perhaps this officer's, this agent's account of what happened. And going to

so far as to call the woman who was dead shot in the head in her car a domestic terrorist. In his social media post, President Trump also calling the shooting an act of self-defense. He wrote this, quote, the woman driving the car was very disorderly, obstructing and resisting, who then

violently, willfully, and viciously ran over the ICE officer. Again, you've seen the video, we've seen the video, our viewers have watched the video, unless there's something that preceded what we've all seen and what eyewitnesses, have told us and we're open to that,

there was no one running over any ice agent there. No, the footage we've all have so far of what precipitated the shooting is the woman in her minivan, actually, you see her, stick her hand out the window and wave a car through. One of the ice car agent's cars drives through. Like, that's not, you would have

the behavior of someone who is then planning to use their vehicle as a weapon when she's letting another car drive through. It's unclear why that agent also was grabbing it at the door handle. That seems like it escalated the situation dramatically. Quite possibly this woman very afraid. Like, that's why she drove away.

Again, and by the way, by the way, a lot of commentary from law enforcement officers saying, ICE agents do not have the right to go up. Look at that. And grab at people's cars and order them out of their cars. Now, obviously, you're supposed to, you know, cooperate with what a law enforcement officer says, but she, understandably, probably panicked in that situation.

Why is this masked man coming after me? Coming after me and grabbing at my door handle here. And look, I covered the NYPD for a long time. Rev, I know you obviously have a lot of experience shootings like this, where these are, it happens really fast. There's really quick reaction to it. And maybe there are people who will say that first shot was justified. It's hard to suggest that second and third could be.

But because it happens so fast, that's why these officers have training. You do this for months and years, so you make the right decisions. But let's talk about the training. The training, we've had reports on this. The training has been slashed. You know, I find it so deeply ironic that Pete Higgseth loves going around talking about fat people in the military. Have you looked at the people that they've rushed into ice, out of shape, ill-trained, ill-prepared? We've seen videos of these guys with no training, yanking guns out at the most inappropriate.

at times and pointing them at people where there's no reason to be pointing guns at protests where they're not in danger. So again, I've heard other people say this. I feared, and I feared for everybody involved, including these untrained officers, being in this situation where they don't have the training to know how to de-escalate or know when they should engage, when they should take their guns out, when they, it's, it, this was a tragedy that was waiting to happen in large part because so many of these people that they rushed in are ill-suited to serve not only for ICE, but for any law enforcement agency. They're not

ready. They're not in shape. So many of them not in shape. It's been a tragedy waiting to have. And it's difficult to see how that officer would think his life was jeopardy in that moment. There's a, there's a heartbreaking image that one of the local media outlets took of, in the aftermath of this, where you see the bloodied airbag, and the glove compartment of this woman's car is filled with stuffed animals for, for her child. Also, questions being raised about there's a neighbor who lives right there, who's a doctor, this video of this, he's screaming, hey, let me go help, let me go help. Ice agents tell him no. This woman does not receive any medical help for many minutes. And can I ask who are ICE agents to stop ambulances,

to stop doctors from going in and trying to save a woman's life? Why do they have the authority to stop doctors from trying to save the life of somebody that an ice person, an ice shooter, has shot at point-blank range three times? They should not have the authority to do it. I mean, everything around this that we know so far, and we agree that we don't know everything. from what we've seen is as ugly as you can get. And clearly what a lot of people were raising questions about.

I think that two things that I thought about this morning is one that one of the immediate heroes is one of the neighbors that videotaped this. I would never forget in 1991 when we had a police beating of Rodney King, a racial police bill. What people always forget was a white guy who was just, just at his house that happened to video it that woke the whole nation up to what many of us was saying about police brutality. Right. Whoever this bystander was that filmed this is the one that saved this country from just going by what Norm had to say and later President Trump by video in this.

Because suppose if there was no video, we would believe this woman was some domestic terrorist, which she was not. This is a 37-year-old woman, mother. white woman at that, that was there. And from all we can see, there was certainly no terrorism and no justification of what happened here. And the mayor and the governor said many times yesterday, they have been saying for weeks and weeks now

that something like this was inevitable. Right. When you have these ICE agents coming in, not in sync with local authorities, unexpected, creating fear and chaos in the community, the one thing they didn't express yesterday in their comments was surprise because this was bound to happen given the complete lack of organization and the chaos that's being created by us coming into communities.

Just a complete lack of discipline within the organization from the very top where you saw Chrissy Nome go out and just lied to the American people. She didn't have the information. She just lied through the training programs. It's been slashed to what's happening on the ground every day. Christenome needs to move on. There had been some reporting before the possibility of Glenn Youngkin taking that position and Christy Noem leaving.

If the Trump administration wants to get other things done, it's much better for them to get rid of Christenome right now because it really couldn't be much worse than it already is right now. Again, Will, I want to go to you on this because we talk all the, the time about how grateful we are for, especially New York City cops, law enforcement officers, talk all the time about how they shouldn't be second-guessed. A lot of times going into apartments, the Rev talks about this as well. You go in for domestic disturbance. You go in. You don't know where shots are coming from. Sometimes you have to fire. Sometimes terrible things happen. And when they

happen, it's a tragedy. But you understand when they're in situations where they can't see clearly what's going on around the corner. The same thing happens, whether you're in Iraq or whether you're in Afghanistan, you're in a street, you're trying to protect civilians or you're trying to track your troops that are with you and you get gunfire coming from buildings or mosques or wherever it's coming from. You have to make a quick decision at that point. Sometimes you get a right. Sometimes you get it wrong.

And sometimes you're going to get it wrong in the heat of battle. Here, I just don't think we can underline it enough. yet an officer against regulations going in front of the car, number one, another officer grabbing the door and trying to open it up, an ice agent, trying to open it up. And then, too many questions about what they did wrong there, but then when she turns to the side and the shooter fires two bullets into her head or into the car at point blank range, Willie, there's just no. ambiguity there. And I think people like Tom Holman know that. Because when Tom was asked yesterday, he said, hey, you know what? And he was the one grown up. He said, hey, you know what, let's investigate this first. And then we'll come back to you and tell you what we found. Yeah, he was, that was a very interesting moment. Tom Holman, of all people who we've watched lead this operation from the beginning

of this second term for Donald Trump was measured in his response. There's an investigation. Let's find the whole story and see what happened. But you're absolutely right, Joe. The difference is in the New York City Police Department, or of course, the United States military, there are months and months and years and years of training that's ongoing. They work on it every day. When to use your weapon. They know the protocols and the guidelines, how to de-escalate a situation. A New York City police officer, because they couldn't get a door handle open as a car was slowly pulling away, would not fire three shots into the windshield. Ever. Ever. Ever. That car killing the driver. They'd get the plate, they'd call ahead, and they'd pursue the vehicle and arrest the person for what they believed,

was a crime. So that is the difference. And we've had reporting in NBC News and other places about the training, about people being put on duty before they'd even cleared their background checks because they want to build up the numbers of ice. And they've called on people, come join the posse. We're rounding up illegal immigrants. And they've gotten a lot of people, perhaps like what we saw yesterday. Let's bring in for more expertise on this, Gil Kerkowski. He's the retired commissioner of customs and border protection. He also was chief of police, both in Buffalo, New York and in Seattle, a man with deep experience. Thank you so much for being with us, Chief.

Just talk a little, if you can, about what we've been saying here and elaborate, if you will, what you know about protocols and guidelines and how they may or may not have been followed based on what you see in that video. Well, take it back to the bigger picture. Clearly, the Border Patrol is the absolute wrong unit to be bringing into any city environment. Secretary Ridge, Secretary Chertoff, we've all remarked about this, whether it was in Portland, and certainly now, they're trained to work on the border. They're trained to work by themselves. That's their experience. They're not trained to work in an urban environment.

And as you've already mentioned, a city police officer knows that you don't get in front of or behind a vehicle. You don't attempt to stick your hands in the window or open a car door. you would do exactly as you had mentioned. You have the tag number. You could figure this out, and you've already got cars on the street, if that's what your intent is, to arrest her. So, no, this was foreseeable because we saw their actions and tactics in Los Angeles. We saw their tactics in Chicago, and now here in Minneapolis.

So, Commissioner, obviously, let's again say that we don't know everything that led it to this moment. But as you draw upon your decades of experience here, how should something like this have gone down, not just the confrontation, but what led up to the confrontation? There seems to be almost a very confrontational, if you will, attitude from these ICE agents, from these Border Patrol agents who are taking the lead in so many of these cities, you know, that they seem to be antagonistic. How should something like this, a stop with some protests, how should this have been handled? So the protocol would be that you don't engage with a group of protesters, that you end up getting the tag number, you leave the area, it can only lead to bad problems.

And city police officers with years of experience working in an urban environment, understand that completely. Their lack of training and lack of experience in policing, what can be a very difficult place, any urban setting, as I would, was in Seattle or even Buffalo shows that this is clearly wrong. But we've also seen a level of aggressiveness that's unprecedented. It's almost a level of cruelty. It's a level, if you were a football player, you'd be charged with taunting. Yeah, and you talk about the level of aggressiveness, also something I've never seen in law enforcement where a woman has been shot and is either dying or already dead.

and the law enforcement officers aggressively stop any medical aid from reaching the automobile where the woman is bleeding out and dead. I wanted to ask you, comment on that, if you will, but also comment on the second and third shots, it appears, the second and third shots, where the ice shooter is at the side of the automobile and is shooting at the woman's head at point-blank range. Could you tell us, with your collective knowledge, if someone that was working in one of your departments or someone working in the New York City Police Department had fired two shots at the head of a car going by at, say,

five miles an hour, would they most likely be reprimanded or even charged? Well, I think you'd want to do, as Tom Homan said, and I worked with Tom for many years, do an investigation. The concern I have, of course, is the quality of the investigation. You know, the one DOJ official that told Commander Bovino that he should obey the law, a U.S. attorney in California, was fired six hours after telling him that. So I would be very skeptical of the quality of the investigation and at least the oversight of what's going to come. But you're exactly right. I mean, to continue to fire after the vehicle is clearly not attempting to run over anybody.

Now you have a 4,000-pound unguided missile, and fortunately there were no people on the sidewalk. There were no people in the vehicles that she hit. but you can only imagine what other kinds of harm could have occurred. Mr. Commissioner, final thoughts for us? Well, I think that we need to recognize that this is an untrained, unskilled, unexperienced, and I don't blame these agents. I know a lot of these agents. I know that their morale is in the pits,

and they would do anything possible to avoid being assigned to some of these details. what we need to realize it is the leadership, whether it's Secretary Nome, President Trump, or Stephen Miller, et cetera, Corey Lewandowski, who are all in charge of doing this. And it is not the fault of many of these agents. But that said, though, you did say most of these agents in your mind are untrained, unskilled, ill-prepared for the urban challenges. facing every day, right? That's exactly right. That isn't where your training is for the border patrol. That isn't where you work in a rugged environment, such as the border. And now you're being

thrust into Portland or Los Angeles or Chicago or Minneapolis. And that isn't the kind of experience that you have. Retire Commissioner of Customs and Border Protection, Gil Kurikovsky. Thank you so much for your insights this morning. We appreciate it. And coming up, we'll have much more on this story throughout the morning. Also ahead, President Trump provides a new detail about the administration's plans for Venezuela. We'll take a look at what he said in a wide-ranging interview with the New York Times. Just a two-hour interview. You're watching morning, Joe. We'll be right back.

President Trump now says the United States could be running Venezuela for years. When asked by the New York Times, how long has administered. will demand oversight of the South American country, Trump responded, quote, only time will tell. When pressed on whether it could be three months, six months, a year, or longer, Trump replied, quote, I would say much longer. These new comments came just hours after the administration officials briefed Congress about next steps in Venezuela. Speaking to reporters after the briefing, Secretary of State Marco Rubio insisted the White House's, quote, not just winging it. He outlined this light on details three-part plan.

Step one is the stabilization of the country. We don't want it descending into chaos. The second phase will be a phase that we call recovery, and that is ensuring that American, Western, and other companies have access to the Venezuela market a way that's fair. And then the third phase, of course, will be one of transition. Some of this will overlap. U.S. involvement in Venezuela. How much will it cost you a tax? Well, it doesn't cost us any money. Urubio also reiterated, the president claimed that Venezuela is going to turn over tens of millions of barrels of oil to the United States. Venezuela's oil company released statement yesterday confirming negotiations, but didn't say the deal was in play.

I want to say there is a three-step plan, and this obviously seems to make sense. It's light on details, Willie, but there has to be the stabilization of the country. and it's not going to be stabilized overnight. It's going to take, it will take a while. And then they're talking about recovery of the oil assets, but that's going to take a lot of rebuilding of the oil infrastructure that is just absolutely shattered. And then finally the transition into what would be the Venezuelans

having a democratically led government. This, again, in my conversation, with the president, he talked about Douglas MacArthur being brilliant, writing the Japanese Constitution, and how, you know, we talked about MacArthur from 45 to 52, leading that transition in Japan. I suspect those seven years will be far too long of a transition. I think for most anybody, perhaps this is one or two years, but we have no timeline yet. And that's the thing. They make a three-step plan sound It's great on paper, but hold on. Step one, stabilize Venezuela. That's a multi-year project.

Right. Completely chaotic country that has been ruled by an illegitimate president for the last decade or so. So that to even get to step two, which is get the oil, step one takes a really long time. And to pick up on our conversation yesterday about the oil companies going in, talking to some people yesterday, there was some pessimism about that because dropping the price of oil to 50 bucks a barrel is not something the oil companies are terribly. interested in. And again, rebuilding the infrastructure, that's another multi-year project after you've stabilized the country. And it's not clear that they even want to go in and risk their people, as we said yesterday, until it's been stabilized. So one, two, three, plan sounds great, reads well

on paper. But we're talking, as the president conceded yesterday, about years and years and years of American involvement in Venezuela. Well, and the question is, and there are all the details. It's interesting. You even talk to Democrats. They get these briefings, 75% of the briefings we heard from our congressman yesterday that was on from Connecticut, Jim Himes, said 75% of the briefing was about what the military did. It was extraordinary. I don't know that they've done anything any better than that before. It was just absolutely extraordinary. He said the other 25% though was troubling because it's a question about what happens the day after. Well, we're now in the day after. And there's just so many questions. How do you stabilize the country? This leads. And there has to be discussions

about this. There have to be hearings about this. Do you do? it by keeping in Maduro's people. Yeah. And if you do that, then you get stabilization through continued repression, right? Do you do it with a debatification of all of Maduro's people? Well, no, you don't do that because you would have got, you'd get the same results that we got in Iraq, and it would be absolute chaos. So there's going to have to be a bit more of a complicated approach to this, and that's going to require a back and forth. and certainly not the impression that they're winging it.

I don't know that Secretary of State Marco Rubio is in winging it. He doesn't strike me as a type of guy that would just wing it and would try to come up with a plan. But we need to know. Congress needs to know. And they need to lay out the plan for step one. How do we bring about this stabilization without this government being just, Just as dictatorial is the last. Well, to your point, in that lengthy interview that President gave with the New York Times,

their account of it suggests he spent the majority of it talking about the success, the military operation, and provided next to no details about what comes next. And we have established on this show day after day, how successful that was, but now it's about the day after. And you're right, right now, if the Maduro regime, without Maduro, is allowed to stay in place, and there's been reports in Venezuela already of real repression and crackdown on people who have been celebrating Maduro's ouster, then that doesn't benefit the Venezuelan people,

certainly not advancing any kind of democracy there. And if stabilization, even beyond stabilization, even making the country safe enough for perhaps these oil companies and their employees to go in, that's going to take boots on the ground. That's going to take an American military presence. And that's a very different ask for the American people to support. That's even a very different ask for MAGA supporters to sign off on.

They might like the quick military action to be very different if it's a months or years-long commitment to have American men and women on the ground in harm's way. To your point, Marjorie Taylor Green was on the view yesterday, and she went quite in depth about this, saying this is not what MAGA wants at all. Like, absolutely hands down, forget it, not what they signed up for. And then we heard from Republican Senator Tom Tillis, who was quite strong about this as well. I guess we'll play that later. About Green, and let's play that later. It is interesting, Rev, that the president did sit down and speak to the New York Times, David Sanger, and others, for several hours yesterday.

He's starting to talk to the press more. I think that is very interesting. I think he's talking to the press because I think he finds a lot of what he's doing under question, so he's going to other than his home team or Fox News and others. But I think that the more he talks, the more troubling he gets, Because when he talks about long-term engagement, when he talks about what he's doing with oil, he feeds into a lot of the criticisms that a lot of us had, that this was not about democracy. But he also worries his MAGA base. Are we talking about a multi-year involvement here rather than a quick takeout of Maduro and everything changes?

And the more he talks, I think, the more he hangs himself. They say a fish wouldn't get caught if he kept his mouth shut. Coming up. Well, we'd all be in trouble here, Ralph, wouldn't we, if that were the gay? Yes. If that applied to us. That's true.

We definitely want to play Tom Cruise. I'm not advocating. Republican Senator for talking about Venezuela, maybe after this break. Coming up, another long-time lawmaker is leaving Capitol Hill. We'll tell you who it is. Plus, George Conway is running for Congress in New York. As a Democrat, he joins the conversation. And as we go to break, a quick look at the Traveler's Forecast.

What do you think Bernie has? From Acqueweathers, Bernie Rayno. Come on, Byrne. What's got it looking? Miko along the East Coast, the ACUther exclusive forecast called for a warm day. How about 46 degrees in Boston, 50 in New York City? Watch the rain and the thunderstorms, though, from St. Louis towards Chicago. And we'll follow those thunderstorms south to Dallas this morning all day in Oklahoma City.

There will be some fog, Florida Peninsula. Other than that, though, it's warm. Your ACUweather travel forecast, watch for the fog this morning. morning in Atlanta. Other than that along East Coast, no travel delays. To help you make the best decisions and be more in the know, download the Ackyweather app today. Well, yeah. Beautiful look at the United States Capitol, 644 in the morning. Democratic Congressman Steny Hoyer of Maryland has confirmed he will not run for re-election.

In an interview with the Washington Post, Hoyer, the former House Majority Leader, says he will retire. after this term. Boyer telling the Post, he does not want to end up like other elderly legislators who stayed in Congress as their physical and mental capabilities diminished. The 86-year-old lawmaker is Maryland's longest-serving member of Congress and the third longest serving member in House history.

Boyer expected to formally announce his retirement in a floor speech later this morning. And joining us now, someone who's looking to start a career in Congress, George Conway. He's running as a Democrat in a Democrat. a crowded field to replace outgoing Congressman Jerry Nadler in New York's 12th Congressional District, also with a senior writer at The Dispatch and a columnist at Bloomberg Opinion, David Drucker. Good to have you on board with us this morning. So, George, first of all, you're riding in a Democratic primary.

You spent your life as a Republican, part of the vast right-wing conspiracy, as it was called. How are you finding Democratic voters in primaries welcome? to you. I mean, I've been walking the street. I was here for 30 years practicing law, and I come back here a lot. Right. I walk down the street and people say thank you. Thank you for what you're saying. And I, you know, I think people understand that we're just at a different time right now, where the things that used to, you know, back when Democrats and Republicans were kind of normal, the differences between them now are nothing compared to the differences between what we have in the government now and what people want. And we are at such an incredible crossroads

for the rule of law, for constitutional government, for our democracy, where we have a criminal president who is running this government like a mob operation, like a protection racket. You see it with the law firms. You see it with corporations. You see it, you know, so many different way. He's using ACA subsidies as a cudgel. He did the other day against voters who he doesn't, who he thinks don't support him. He's using the other day they cut off funding for five Democratic states for childcare. This is all about nothing to do with his oath of office to protect the people and to support the Constitution and laws of the United States. And then we see it in this horrible murder.

in Minneapolis. Well, let me ask you. Obviously, a lot of those things are rightly discussed a great deal on social media and they're hot-button issues for all for very good reasons. And we talk about it all the time. It's extraordinarily important to us around the table that we talk through all of these issues. That said, when you're knocking on doors, when you're talking people at subway stations,

they may not be talking to you about constitutional niceties. saying, hold on, they're going to be saying my groceries. Yes. I can't afford them. My heating too much. My rent just keeps going up and my health care, forget about it. I can't take care of my grandmom. I can't take care of my kids. What am I going to do? Because I can't afford health care insurance. And even when I pay for health care insurance, the health care companies don't cover what the doctor says. I need covered. So what are you going to do? That's part of my point. What are you going to do? Because my point on that is that we can't have discussions about that.

We can't have solutions to that until we have a government of people who actually care about these things. So what are you going to do on those issues? On those issues, we have to regulate the insurance companies. We have to make sure that Trump doesn't take away ACA subsidies. We have to do all sorts of things to help people. But that's not going to happen until we get rid of a government that is criminally using its power to advance. Right. But I'm going to steer you back to these issues because this is what constituents, when I would knock on the door, I wanted to talk about how Bill Clinton mishandled Haiti. They wanted to talk about gas prices. And that's the same thing that's going to happen to you.

So let's talk more specifically about affordability, something that the new. mayor of New York City did. Give us all. Give New York voters your best idea on how you're going to bring prices down for them. Well, the first thing we can bring prices down is to get rid of these stilly tariffs, these tariffs that are basically designed not to actually help anybody, not to actually bring industry of the United States, but basically so that Trump can have people come to him and say, oh, we need you. We want to do something for you. We are, we are. you're at your mercy.

And all these tariffs, tariffs, the ACA subsidies, we have to actually, we have to make sure they're put back because that's the biggest possible. People shouldn't go bankrupt for, you know, their medical needs. It's a consensus now. And what do you do for people not on Obamacare that are just on health care, regular health care, and their premiums keep skyrocketing and they keep getting rejections from, insurance companies that are making billions and billions and billions of dollars off of those rejections. We have to regulate that. We have to take stronger steps to regulate that because it is a problem

and it undermines the entire system. It undermines the ACA and we have to do things to. The ACA system has worked pretty well. It just needs to be carried on, you know, extended and improved. It's the system that we have. We can't, we're not going to trash it. Most people don't want single-payer health care. And yes, we actually have to do that. We have to do all sorts of things and conduct hearings and study the best practical way to do that because there is a national consensus, right-left, red state, blue state, that that's part of what the role of government is. It's the entire Western world believes that. That being said, you know, where's the Republican plan? They've lied to us for years.

Really, we've been looking for that for a few years. Yeah, is it here? Where is it here? I've been promising it for 15 years. Two more weeks. Two more weeks, along with any infrastructure plan? Yeah. It's all a lie. So, George, what do you say to my neighbors on the Upper West Side who really like you? They've watched you on MSNBC for the last 10 years.

They like the way you fight. They like what you said. They say, but at the end of the day, I think he's a conservative Republican. That's how he lived his life. And we just elected a Democratic socialist. That's kind of the direction we're taking our city. how do you explain maybe some differences between you and the current mayor? The differences between, look, I share his goals.

I mean, he did an amazing job. I mean, I'll see part of the start of stuff he said about Israel, done an amazing job making affordability and issue and showing people that he cared about that. And that's been a perennial issue for long as I've been around New York City, a perennial issue. You know, I rent is too damn high. He was my favorite candidate ever.

And we have to help him do that. There may be differences in the way we try to do that. On my view, maybe a little bit more free market than Zorans, because I think one of the things you have to do, first how housing is you have to make sure. You can't just put rent regulation on that. You have to make sure there are ways you can incentivize the creation of supply. That's, you know, economics 101.

And so my approach might be different, but it's all about finding practical solutions to things. And it's all about having the discussions about what works and what doesn't work in studying and talking to experts. And, but again, to go back to, we can't really have this discussion at the federal level when you have an executive branch that doesn't give a shit about any of this. Okay, Canada for U.S. Congress, George Conway. Thank you very much. Take that. Stick it in your head, Upper West Side. And we'll we appreciate you being on. Thank you for having me. All right. And we're going to get to David Drucker after the break. He has a new piece out questioning what the Democrats might have to apologize for. We'll have that answer coming up. Still ahead. Also, we'll turn back to the deadly shooting yesterday in Minneapolis. And the response from the Trump administration. And we're also going to be showing Tom, tell us on the Senate floor. demanding, demanding answers from the administration on Greenland.

We'll be right back. We'll be right back. Live look at the White House at just about the top of the hour this morning. Welcome back to Morning Joe. It is Thursday, January 8th. We certainly have a lot going on. I do want a circle back to you, Rev. Last night, Minneapolis was peaceful.

I know after the George Floyd shooting, you were out there constantly telling people that the Floyd family was begging you to beg the people of Minneapolis and these outside groups that were coming in, stay calm, no violence. And in this case, you're not so worried, are you, about the people of Minneapolis as much as outside people that may want to come in and agitate? Absolutely. I remember it was just five years ago. The Floyd family when they called and asked me to come in and do the eulogy, they wanted also for us to have nonviolent protest to turn because they were burning down stores in the city. And last night we didn't see that.

And we do not need outsiders or anyone else to come in and agitate that. Look at what Norm is saying. She's saying they were rioters. If you want to confirm Norm rather than look up, look for where. would be justice for this victim, this woman that was killed, then you go in there and riot. Because then you're on the side of those that are trying to justify what happened. Only peaceful protests will make this come to where the woman and her victimization that we see is dealt with justice. And I will say, Willie, that Tim Walts, who has been, yeah, he has been in middle of a political storm because of a

scandal up in Minnesota that has just spread. He handled himself extraordinarily well last night, and he kept delivering that message. Minnesota, stay calm, don't take the bait, don't take the bait, don't play into their hands. They want to lie about you. He's like, we're better than this. Stay calm. Well, they certainly stayed calm last night. And of course, that's not going to stop Christy now from lying. Right. I mean, I still am stunned by what she said in her cowboy hat immediately after what happened. But the facts are the facts. I will say also, I have been bombarded with texts from police officers, many of them, big city cops. You say, Joe, this isn't a close

call. You all are being way, way too careful here. Well, I think that's our job to be very careful, and I am thankful that Tom Homan said what he said, which is let's have the investigation. But it is the opinion of most police officers here that this guy that fired the first shot, which they say goes against. Regulations. All regulations. He should not have stood in front of the car. And then firing at point-blank range on the side two times, all the cops say, if this had

happened in our police department than anyone who did this would be in jail. And one very senior police officer saying the best this guy can hope for, and again, it's just what law enforcement officers who've done this whole life were saying, best he can hope for is a plea deal because the point blank shots from the side into her head or are into her car. are just too damning. He is in no danger whatsoever there. And yet he shoots her at point-blank range. Yeah, and again, we heard in our last hour

from Gil Kirla Kowalski, who ran Customs Border Protection, who was the chief of police in Buffalo and Seattle, who understands protocols and guidelines on both sides of this very well, said, again, this is not a close call. If you felt that there was a crime committed by the person driving that Honda pilot and they're rolling past you slowly and they're not stopping, wheels turned.

Then you get the tag and you arrest them two blocks later. You pull over the car and make an arrest, investigation, ask questions, whatever you need to do. You certainly don't fire shots into the window. And again, I think we can agree that if there were a video from before what we've seen so far that confirmed Christy Nome and President Trump's version of events, they would have quickly made it public so that the country could see. Here's what this woman did with her car. Maybe we'll see that at some point. We haven't seen it yet.

but certainly their accounts, Christy Noem and President Trump's, do not line up with what we see in the video, what we've heard from eyewitness accounts. So let's get...