MORNING KOMBAT WITH LUKE THOMAS AND BRIAN CAMPBELL - Anthony Smith Faces Off with Brian Campbell, Still Not Sold on Jon Jones | Morning Kombat RSD

Episode Date: November 22, 2022

Luke Thomas and Brian Campbell sit down with Anthony Smith on the Room Service Diaries Couch. Anthony discusses becoming a UFC Analyst, getting cut from the UFC, The Jon Jones fight and he squashes his beef with BC. You won't want to miss this Room Service Diaries (1:10) - Anthony Smith & BC Beef (2:40) - UFC Commentary Work (6:45) - Never Giving Up (10:20) - Getting Cut from the UFC (11:00) - Turning the Corner in MMA (14:30) - Bad Weight Cuts (23:00) - Mistakes Made in MMA (28:50) - Staying Relevant in MMA (29:30) - Alexander Gustafsson (32:25) - Jon Jones Fight (33:30) - Glover Teixeira (35:15) - Shogun Fight (37:30) - "Jon Jones is Beatable" (44:25) - Injuries (49:00) - ADCC (53:20) - Fighter Criticism (59:30) - Fighting Injured (63:50) - Return to the Octagon (69:30) - Goals Outside of Fighting Morning Kombat’ is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, Castbox, Google Podcasts, Bullhorn and wherever else you listen to podcasts.    For more Combat Sports coverage subscribe here: youtube.com/MorningKombat   Follow our hosts on Twitter: @BCampbellCBS, @lthomasnews, @MorningKombat    For Morning Kombat gear visit:morning kombat.store   Follow our hosts on Instagram: @BrianCampbell, @lukethomasnews, @MorningKombat Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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I'm excited. Should be a good time. Crazy weekend, bro. So much media. Look at that. What is that? Oh, shit. I'm excited should be a good time crazy weekend so much media can I give you some love here from all that you know after years of hate I think we are but thank you for doing this just to see you how are you travel okay yeah dude get the get the room service. Oh, yeah This is weird right this is cool because you want some wrestling mags from the 80s All right, Luke take us in when you want. Five, four, three, two, one.

Hey, he's the pride of Omaha, Nebraska, a UFC light heavyweight, top-ranked one at that, an analyst, a whole lot more. He's also our next guest right here on Room Service Diaries. Brian Campbell, Luke Thomas, alongside the legendary Anthony Smith. All right, Anthony, how are you? Legendary. That feels good.

Brian Campbell's best friend. There's no... Right away. He just gets into it right away. It's a little tense on this side of the couch, right? I woke up this morning and chose violence. For sure. I really did.

Well, Anthony Smith, I can only say I'm sorry that you got in the middle of, just by being you, you got in the middle of this, you know, rivalry between Luke and I. And, you know, you happen to be one of his favorite fighters. And, you know, he doesn't give that same respect to my favorite fighters like Ioana and Cheyenne. Yes, I do. I give them all the respect. So, you know, maybe I took this a little bit too far, but we have big respect for you. Possibly.

By the way, you are a fantastic podcaster and analyst, and I don't say that lightly. So welcome to our show. You know, you could have put me to sleep, but, you know, it wouldn't have stopped me. Well, I feel like just walking into someone's house and choosing violence. See, he can do that. I can't do that. I got to be tame. Okay.

I'm house trained. Okay. Okay. I appreciate that. He cleans up be tame. Okay. I'm house trained. Okay. Okay. I appreciate that. He cleans up well. That's right. That's right. Who dresses you when you do UFC stuff?

My wife. Really? My wife, yeah. Interesting. She usually picks out all the suits and makes sure that I don't look stupid. Does ESPN offer to do that? No. Really?

I mean, probably for DC. Oh, okay. DC probably gets that special treatment. Yeah, they have to adjust the belt size. Yeah. I knew that was coming. Yeah, I knew that was coming. I knew that was coming. You can't make a DC comment these days

without talking about his weight. He's got a bowl of He's very happy and he's very good at what he does. We're here for, well, this will come out

afterwards. We're here for UFC 281 fight week. What have they got you doing? So I'm doing all the pre-show stuff. We did a Thursday show,

did all the Friday pre-show UFC live. And then I just hang did all the Friday pre-show, UFC Live. And then I just hang out, watch the fights, do some fill work if I need it, and then the post-show, and then we're out. How'd you get this gig? Totally by accident. I had no intention of doing any analyst work or broadcasting. I'm covered in tattoos.

I got a grenade tattooed on my hand. I never had any plan to be on TV. That was never the plan. I think I just was decent at the media days and stuff. Like I noticed that I started getting more media obligations even though the fights I was in weren't necessarily huge fights. And then when I started getting close to a title, or at least a title shot,

I remember Zach Candido called and John Jones was fighting Alexander Gustafson. It was supposed to be in Vegas. Ended up getting switched last second. Yeah. Ended up getting changed

last second. Wanted to know if I was willing to, excuse me, do some desk work and jump on there. And I think it was really because I was going to be

next in line for John. And it was an absolute shit show. I was so bad. If it wasn't for Michael Bisping, I wouldn't be here today doing broadcasting, that's for sure. In what sense? Because I didn't know any,

there's not like a handbook or any kind of instructionals. You don't know anything about anything and you're up there with Michael Bisping who's been doing that a long time. I think it was Gilbert Melendez was there and then Karen Bryant who that's what she went to school for. So like, I didn't understand any of the terms or the lingo or like we're in format meetings

and I'm like reading this stuff. It's the shit's like a different language to me. Like I have no idea what a format is or what any of that stuff means. I didn't know what a SOP was. Yeah, I had no idea what any of that stuff was. So I'm just lost. And then you get up there in rehearsals and it's uncomfortable. And again, you don't know the flow. Someone's talking to you while you're talking. So it was just bad. So

Michael was sitting next to me and I remember he said, you could just tell that I was just doing bad. I was struggling through the rehearsal. And he said, stop trying to follow along. Just listen to the conversation. And if you ever get lost or lose your, you know, place or get uncomfortable, just look at me and I'll pick it up right away. I always have something to say. So, like, I think just feeling that safety net that Bisping would save me if I ever got lost helped me a lot. That was a solid bro move.

For sure. And I use that to this day with the guys that come on, like whether it's when Kiesa first started or Bilal or Allen alan i've always taken that exact same thing and said it to them like if you ever get lost just look at me uh and i'll save you that is nice i mean what i will say that bc does that for me with boxing a little bit because i've missed so many years covering i used to cover then i went away for a long time then i got back to it it It is, like, it's, when he's there, I know that, like, the anchor boxing analysis is covered. Right, you're not going to sink. I don't have to be the guy that has, like, the great boxing point.

I know that we're going to get one. So it puts a little bit less pressure. Yeah, Luke allows me to be a shameless, filthy casual in MMA. It's a great deal, just the same. But, no, we give you credit for how you've adjusted, and there seems to be, it's weird. We have this soft podcast rivalry that's not a real thing about me. Because one time I said you versus

Ryan Spann was the worst UFC main event of all time, and I was just trying to piss him off, and that was it. That was all I was trying to do was try to piss you off. I don't even remember you saying that. You said that? Yes. When reality is Derek Lewis in Albany against Shurir Akhmedalov was... Abdurakhimov? Yes, there you go. Thank you. That was really is Derek Lewis in Albany against Shurir Akhmedalov.

Abdur-Rakimov? Yes, there you go. Thank you. That was really the worst one or that Jessica Ai one recently. But okay, enough of that. The point is that, you know, that's not even real. But what was my actual point?

I was going to say, oh, I got it now. But what everybody always says is, BC, like, you know, you're really just clowning on Luke when you made some Anthony Smith cracks. The reality is Anthony Smith represents BC what you're all about.

Factory Town toughness. We make up this fake MMA promotion, Factory Town MMA. They're like, he should be the poster boy. So my point on this long rant is to set up that you have been able to adapt in and out of the cage to life's curve balls, to you start this announcing accidental gig, and you're like, man, I can't even do this, but look at where you are today. You were five and six as a professional fighter

riding a four-fight losing skid, yet went on to fight for the UFC championship. There's a common thread there of adaptability, or maybe it's being overlooked, or maybe it's just not giving up. What is it? How are you where you are today? Because it's all kind of like, you're right, this guy with these tats and 13 losses or whatever

is knocking on all these doors. Yeah, I don't really know what it is. I just never stopped. I never felt like even in those losses that I wasn't good enough to be there. It was always like I was missing one piece of the puzzle. I never got in there with someone and then lost and then afterwards, excuse me, never got in there with someone and then lost and then afterwards excuse

me never got in there felt like wow that guy's so much better than me I can't hang with that guy even John Jones I like I never I can beat that guy and it's just as I continue to just make small little tweaks that I would get closer and start beating better guys and and I just never had a whole lot of opportunities to go back and fight some of those other guys that had beat me previously to like really get a gauge on where I was at. But I just, I think sometimes I'm too stupid to quit. I think I don't have a backup. I never set myself up with a plan B.

So like plan B was enforced plan A. And I just kept grinding. And I think I said this to John afterwards. We kind of were going back and forth and i said something like no matter what i'm gonna end up a world champion and you know john jones said something well not as long as i'm here i said i'll just fucking wait till you're gone like i'll just be here longer you know and and that's my mindset i'll just keep i'll just keep going and and eventually if i hit my head if just run myself in a wall long enough

i'll get through it eventually i mean you've been able to reinvent yourself as a fighter and now you've kind of set up this accidental second career i mean who knows what what you would become after a fighter maybe become a trainer maybe a gym owner maybe just a regular guy but it seems like i had no plan it wouldn't be a forced uncharmed life if you didn't have the work ethic and have at least some kind of vision but maybe it's what you're saying a lack of vision at times for saying, you know, some people look at the obstacles ahead of them. A five and six fighter might just give up. Yeah.

But you kept going. And so, you know, you're more like someone I'm trying to be like than someone I'm trying to rail against. So I think that there's somewhat of like a people's champion vibe to you. And I think you should embrace that. I try to. I think I'm more blue collar than a lot of fighters, especially guys like in the top five or guys that are people that are,

you know, work in the desk. I think people relate to me better because I'm from Nebraska. I don't hang out with athletes for the most part. I'm not, I don't know, I'm not super bougie or act like that, I guess. And so I think that's what draws people to me. And I've just always gone, I've just never had another plan. So I just kept continuing to do what I'm doing now. I think I made it a long ways not being good though. I think that helped a lot. Like I beat a lot of guys. I

had no business beating as far as where my skillset and my abilities were just in pure toughness. So I was already pretty far along before I actually started getting good. So I, I had already, I had already like outkicked my coverage way before. And then I started getting good. And I think that that's where like the reinventing has come from. Like, I, I don't even know if it's necessarily reinvented myself. I just actually started getting good. Your ability was catching up with, which was with where I was, which created certain timeframes where you're able to bust out on these win streaks because you're just making leaps.

But, I mean, you fought on Strikeforce. You fought in Bellator. You have the rare UFC resume where you fought in Bellator, Strikeforce, and UFC. Not many guys can say that. I wouldn't have planned it that way, that's for sure. I only ended up in Bellator because I got cut from the UFC. After one fight, right?

The Braga Neto fight. Yeah, yeah. I blew my knee defending a knee bar. up in bellator because i got cut from the ufc after one fight right the uh the the braga netto fight yeah yeah that blew my knee defending a uh a knee bar why do they only give you one they usually give guys three oh well i'd lost my last strike force fight too because i just i'd fought um hadra gracie uh in oklahoma city in the last strike force event so then i was it was essentially back-to-back losses under zufa okay let's back up a step here like what would you say was the first real corner you turned in your career where you were like okay i'm getting better at this what was the first change or event or moment um probably the elvis mutopchik fight that was ufc yeah 185 still though right yeah yeah i

struggled my way through the regional scene like i i think just my toughness and I think a lot of it is like like I think I had a little bit of an aura on the on the regional scene after a while where I just I did not give a shit like I was I was gonna make it I was gonna figure it out and I didn't care what I had to do to get there so I think I think I beat a lot of those guys before we even got there. But once I got to the UFC, I obviously didn't know that stuff matters anymore. So once I got back, I had some ups and downs with the Cesar Fajero fight. But once I fought Elvis, I was really starting to figure it out. Like I was able to – it was probably the first time I had like consistently through an entire fight, outstruck a striker.

And he was a guy that I'd watched coming up and was always a little bit iffy about if I was going to be able to stand with a guy like that. And I was able to. So I think mentally that's where I was like, okay, I'm figuring the striking thing out for sure. Because I've never claimed to be a striker. I've never called myself a striker. I've always been a jiu-jitsu guy. So I think that was probably, as far as big moments, I think that was myself a striker. I've always been a jujitsu guy. So I think that was probably as far as big moments. I think it was probably the first one.

So what was happening in your life at that time? Was there any, even professionally in terms of training, was there anything on that side that coincided with this or was it just a cumulative? Yeah, I think, well, some of it's just maturity. I think I've always been a late bloomer. And I was working with a guy that is legendary in Omaha.

His name is McDoyle. McDoyle grew up in Dublin. He actually does a lot of seminars and kind of mentors John Cavanaugh a little bit. So he goes back and forth from Omaha to Dublin. So I was working with him a lot, and he was a multiple-time world champion Muay Thai guy. So he really helped me figure out the clinch part of my game so that I wasn't I didn't have any middle area like it was

either striking from the outside or wrestling so I didn't have that middle area so he really he's the one who kind of developed my elbow game hmm uh when did and how long had you been working with him at that point uh that was probably like our third fight together okay so yeah good dude to still stay in contact with him to this day. He doesn't really train fighters anymore, though. So that's one big milestone. What was the next one? Because I feel like you've had at least two or three of them.

The next time you felt like you had leveled up. Was it the back-to-back Shogun Rashad wins? I was going to say when I moved to 205. When I moved to 205, I think that changed everything. Just not always focused on the weight cut and being miserable and hating my life like I was at the point where I was like I'm moving up to 205 or I'm gonna retire I can't I can't do these weight cuts anymore um and I was it wasn't it was I wasn't getting anything out of it there was no returns um so I once I was able

to like go into fight like my first fight week I ever like enjoyed was when I was getting ready for Rashad I didn't understand like how fun fight weeks could be and how enjoyable it could be like as I was just miserable every single fight week I've ever had so I think that yeah I think that changed a lot

yeah as media guys we learned that like getting exclusives on Fight Week for interviews are not necessarily slam dunks. Right. Because you don't know how hungry that dude is by the time you get to him. Right. I remember one time, they don't do these anymore,

but I remember, I think it was, do you remember when Habib fought or was going to fight Tony and it was on the same card in Vegas as the rematch between Tyron and Wonderboy? Yeah. The whole Tiramisu incident? I saw. 209, is it? I think that's right. I saw Habib at the media day before the weigh Wonderboy. Yeah. The whole Tiramisu incident. I saw... 209, is it? I think that's right.

I saw Habib at the media day before the weigh-ins. Yeah. I had never seen a fighter with cotton mouth that bad. Really? Never in my life. White shit in the corners of his mouth. Yeah, and he couldn't... And he had no energy to even wipe it.

Like, he just looked like... It was awful. Turns out those edibles are the shit, right? You will do things that are just so embarrassing when you're cutting weight. Like, looking back on it, you're like, I cannot believe that. But, like. Like what? I can't tell you how many times I just in total public places, like, checking my weight and stuff.

Like, just ass out. Just completely naked. Not giving a shit who's around. Like, there is no. BC does that here. There's no modesty at all. Like laying on the floor, like sucking the cold air out from under the door

of the sauna just to have a little bit of relief, just enough to keep you in there. Like, damn, you ever seen the floors of public saunas? Disgusting. Just laying there with your face on the floor just so you can get a little bit of cool air coming out from under the door. Christ, it's precious. What's the worst cut you ever had uh tiago santos for sure in brazil

my last one walk me through it well it was everything i could do to get to 205 on check-in day so i was already cutting to get to a manageable weight for fight week. So I showed up to fight week miserable already. So I was probably checked in at 206, 207. And then as you go throughout the week, you're just, you know, cutting it and struggling. And the night before is the most somber, like, it's like you're walking to your funeral. That's what it feels like. Like, you know that this is going to be 12 hours of hell

is typically how long my weight cuts took. So we would start at, I don't know, five or six at night and it would take me until five or six in the morning to, to get on weight. And it was just, there was supposed to be a hotel close to us that had like a bathtub. So you could alternate between the sauna and the bathtub. Turns out they had no bathtubs um or the water hot water wasn't working in that hotel or something like that and so I had to do it all in the sauna I think I had like 12 pounds or 11 pounds the starting at the like the first big cut and it just it was it was awful and I mean I was I was at the point where probably the last year like I wasn't able to stand for longer than 60 seconds or so.

So if it was... This is like barbaric, man. And I know this is the reality of the game, but... Oh, yeah. And mine aren't the worst I've ever seen. Like if I had a 10-minute walk from my hotel room to the scale, it would take me 25 or 30 because I'd have to walk a little ways and then kneel

and then walk a little ways and kneel. And everyone would have to surround me because like the chances of me passing out were like 70 30 that i'm gonna pass out on the way there so what were you eating on fight week like nothing nothing really nothing really just like 500 calories a day or something not a lot like just enough to stay alive so here's a layman's question if you go through a hellacious cut like that, which many of our favorite fighters do on the regular, and then you make weight, how quickly does it all come back?

And does it ever feel like it all comes back? Your energy, your awareness, your all of that. Like a week. Like you never feel normal afterwards. So that's why I feel so stupid looking at it now. Like what the hell were you doing? Like why were you doing? I just never understood.

Like, afterwards, I can never make sense of it. At the time, it was just like, this is what we do. This is normal. But the Tiago one, I remember standing on the scale and seeing 186 and telling myself, I'll never fucking do this again. Like, I'll quit this fighting thing. I'll go get a real job. I'll go back to construction.

I'll figure it out. Like, I'm either going to not fight or i'm going up so at that point i i it was to the point where i stopped even caring about the fight where like it like i would make the weight and i was kind of just indifferent with the fight like i had put so much energy into the fight with the scale yeah that the actual fight didn't even matter to me anymore. Look, we don't know shit about what they go through mentally. I know any fighter and sometimes fighters can go too far with this, but they'll always say, look, you know, if you're not a fighter, you just don't understand. They're right.

They're 100% right. But they're 200% right when you hear the details and the information of what you guys, for some people, it's just a normal fight week. That's what we do. Like you said, man, I mean, I mean, Luke, I'm pretty miserable to deal with if I don't get a good night's sleep. What's the worst weight cut you've ever seen where someone still won? You're just like, wow, I cannot fucking believe they did that.

I know that's oddly specific. It is. It is. I don't know if I could even answer that because now I don't really cut. You know who cuts a lot of weight that no one really realizes? I don't even know. He'll probably be pissed if I say this. Tim Means.

Tim Means cuts a lot of weight. He's got a lanky frame. Yeah. Tim Means cuts hard to get to 70. In that I spent a lot of time with him that last cut with Tiago. And, I mean, he was with me pretty much the whole time. I mean, it took him just as long as it took me. Jesus.

Yeah, he's got a heavy cut. But you never see him, he never looks bad. I don't. He's tougher than I am for sure. Well, I was going to say, I don't recall him being a chronic weight misser. No. From what I can remember.

No, and he's not like crazy muscular. No. So that's probably part of his problem is he doesn't have a bunch of muscle mass that's holding a lot of water that just shakes it. Dustin Jacoby cuts pretty hard too, but it's really easy for him. Like he, I've never

seen a human sweat like that. Like I've seen Jacoby cut seven pounds in an hour like it's nothing. Jesus. Yeah. I've seen like four in an hour. Like not really working hard either. Like he'll just hit mitts, wear sweatpants and he'll just shake seven. And some people just got it. It is what it is.

All right, so you go to 205, and your first fight at 205 was which one? Rashad. Rashad. But that was a short fight. Yeah. So sure you felt better, but it went your way pretty much the entire way. Yeah. Then you had the Shogun fight.

Through two of those, it must have dawned on you like, oh, wow, everything about this is way better. This is different. You must have felt like the striker finally. Well, I was able to spend training camps actually training and not in fat camp. So it wasn't – I was able to do a lot. Anytime that I'm skill building now,

I would be running or doing conditioning or doing weight cutting stuff instead of working on a specific skill or trying to sharpen up my jab. So I was able to get more time just skill building and getting better and not so much trying to get skinnier. So that made a big difference. And I think just mentally being clear and not like you I spent an entire training camp like you check your weight in the morning then you check it in the afternoon you check it before bed you go back to sleep and you're like oh well you only lost two pounds overnight so then you're stressing about it the whole time so you're never actually I only had about 12 hours or or 18 hours to like really focus on my opponent.

So it was like once I got off the scale, like okay, now I can worry about the fight. But it wasn't until I made the weight that I could worry about the fight. So now I was able to spend entire training camps focused on the actual person and not my weight cut. That has to make a monster difference. I think we saw that, right? You are now, you do all of your camps at Factory X.

What is your sense of, what is your affiliation these days? I've done all of them, starting with the Andrew Sanchez fight, up until the last one, which I did mostly at home just because of circumstance. I've been at Factory X since 2017. Is your plan to go back? Yeah. Okay. Was that a level-up partnership as well yeah mark had a much

different style a way different style than i was used to i've always kind of been the the grinder really gritty ugly type of fighter where you just kind of force the action and make it ugly and that's where i kind of breathe that like breathed. Mark is very technical and really clean. Like think of a, I don't know, a Brandon Royvel. Maybe not so much Brandon because he's not as clean, but he's very, it's less about like power and more about volume. So Mark is very volume heavy, a lot of stance switches, a lot of. Chris Gutierrez this weekend.

Exactly. That's Mark's style. So it's not my style. It never has been. So Mark did a good job without trying to change who I already was and adding in just a new set of skills, and I think that helped a lot. And he's a great mentor. He's a good leader. So it takes a lot of the work out of it for me.

I don't have to worry about watching film or game planning. I just do what I'm told, and he's good at telling people what to do. Are there any moments along your career, because it's been so... It's not a surprise. I don't think that's quite right. But you know this. We talked about this on the show. You see guys like Habib coming, and everything about their success feels inevitable.

Jon Jones. It's just, I mean, the storm is coming. You can just find a place to get rained on or not, right? But yours was, I don't think it was ever preordained in that way. So in thinking of it that way, were there moments early in your career, looking back, where you're like, why the fuck was I doing it this way? Besides the weight, in terms of, like, where to be, what camp you should have been in, how to pick fights, all that stuff.

Most of it. Most of it. I did everything the wrong way. Everything. Like, I didn't seek out, I don't know, high-level training early enough. I think what I had for a long time was perfect. I had a crazy room of guys for a long time. It was Jason Brills, Ryan Jensen, Houston Alexander, Jake and Joe Ellenberger.

Like, it was a good room. But I think once I outgrew that, I didn't go anywhere else fast enough. And those guys were, like, retiring, and they were moving around and whatever. But I think I stuck around too long close to home. Obviously, the weight cut stuff. I took a lot of really bad fights early. I was just in situations I shouldn't have been in. Just personal life-wise, I made a lot of really bad fights early. I was just in situations I shouldn't have been in. Just personal life-wise, I made a lot of bad...

I mean, I fucked it all up the whole time. I think I made every wrong decision you can make in this sport. Along the way, and I think we can relate to stuff like this just from the standpoint of grinding and trying to climb, financially, how hard is it when you're kind of bouncing around promoting? You're in Strikeforce, you're in Bellator, you're trying to catch on, you had a UFC fight before. How close were you literally to the point where you're like,

I can't afford to keep this stream alive? All the time. I mean, I couldn't afford it until I could. I mean, it was, you know, I just ran myself into debt. And if it wasn't for my wife, again, like there's a lot of people that have come in and out of my life that have really played like a instrumental part of my success and my wife was one of them when I when I met her I wasn't working I was just it was just me I had to take

care of so like the little shit money I was making on the regional scene was okay um and then I met her and and she essentially took care of me for like two or three years while I was grinding. And then I got signed to the UFC. And, of course, in my head, I'm like, I made it. Like, I'm going to be okay now. And then I get cut right away. So then I had to get a job. So I was a concrete finisher.

Up until the Elvis Mutopshik fight when I got my first bonus, I was working 40 or 50 hours a week, pouring concrete and training full time. Look, this is my guy right here. Yeah. Yeah. You've been wrong for a long time. I've been wrong on this. You know, now it's time for you to come clean on you on it, just on the flip side. Because you've been wrong this whole time too.

Have you ever heard the spaghetti story? You guys ever heard me tell that? No, I don't think so. So my wife was pregnant with our first kid. So this was 2000, 2011, like October of 2011. And it was just her and I, and she's eight months pregnant. We're about to have this baby. And I am broke, like broke, broke.

And I was getting ready to fight, God, that Russian, that Chechen dude. What the hell was his name? Oh, Ramzan Kadyrov, yeah. No, like his best friend, though. I don't know. I don't know. Anyways, some Russian, that Chechen dude. What the hell was his name? Oh, Ramzan Kadyrov, yeah. No, like his best friend, though. I don't know. Anyways, some Russian cat in Strikeforce. And we're like so broke, and we're hungry, but we don't have any money. So we scrounge up all this change and stuff out of our car cup holders and in the house.

And we're going to use this change to go get spaghetti. So we go to this grocery store. It's like 10 o'clock at night and i am so embarrassed like feeling so down in such in a terrible place that i'm like because i'm like i have this pregnant girl with me that i'm supposed to be taking care of and we can't even afford to eat and like we're gonna buy spaghetti with change i was so embarrassed that i couldn't go in with her i sent her into the grocery store eight months pregnant to buy spaghetti with change. I remember sitting in the car, like, I got to fucking figure this out. Like, I got to figure this out. I got to, I got to make this work. So that's like my, I'll never go back to like buying spaghetti with change. That'll never happen. And that's,

I think that's a lot of the reason I do the things that I do now. And you were how old when that happened? Roughly? I've been 22. Wow. That is a sobering moment, man. Yeah. Pat Berry had a similar story. Remember his fight? I think it was the fight with Czech Congo.

He went into that fight. I could be getting this wrong, but I remember what was so big about it was that he had gotten two bonuses at the time when they were breaking him out, performance and KO. So I think he got both of those bonuses at the time. Both were 70. That would have been 140. I think he like another 30 on top, something like that. So he got paid that night, but he had to do that camp on ketchup and rice. Wow. Was that the story where he,

he was, he was happy to get to fight week because he got the per diem and that's like, he didn't have any money. So he's talking about the per diem. Yes, correct. Cause they used to give it to us in cash. And all he could afford was he had a bottle of ketchup in the house and he had a bag of rice. He could make the rice. Wow. Can you imagine trying to fuel yourself for a fight camp on ketchup? That's a lot of rice.

On cornstarch and all that shit? Like corn syrup, excuse me? Like it's just fucking unbelievable. No, but I really, like I've been, there were times I've been on TV, not getting paid for it, eligible for the food pantry in my town and you're like, you know, my wife's just like just, you know, swallow your pride and let's go do this, this is where we are right now

you know what I mean, you're like, I can't do that I can't do that, I can't do that it's the most embarrassing moment of my life yeah, and you know, you have to teach yourself to take that L when it's time and learn from it, but man, the people that make it, more often than not, man, they had to go through hell to make it so I can appreciate where you are.

But it's funny, just as much as it's a great story that you worked your way into a title opportunity, which you did, I give you almost more respect for after that, suffering some fairly devastating losses against killers and being at an age at a certain point in your career, you could have just been a one-hit wonder and kind of went away. But maybe it's the story of your career. You never stopped trying to get better.

And you've gotten to a point to where you are now. Okay, you still trade wins and losses time to time, but you're two, three wins away from being right back there right now. So it's like, you've never gone away. Staying, staying has got to be even harder than, than getting to,

right? Oh, way harder. It's way harder. And avoiding that John Jones curse, I think is, you know, like Reyes hasn't done well since the John Jones fight.

Tiago Santos hasn't done that well since the John Jones fight. I'm not sure. He got fat, you know. Oh, DC, he, DC's done great since the John Jones fight. Tiago Santos hasn't done that well since the John Jones fight. I'm not sure. DC got fat, you know. Oh, DC. DC's done great, I suppose. DC figured it out. But Gustafson hasn't done, didn't do fantastic. No.

So I think just avoiding that. Although you played a role in that too. Yeah. Yeah. He's a nice guy though. Yeah, he is a nice guy. I like that guy a lot. That was a big moment for me too.

Yep. I remember that. I was in the Equidox gym trying to squeeze in a workout on my phone, trying to catch the results like that guy a lot. That was a big moment for me too. Yep. I remember that. I was in the Equidox gym trying to squeeze in a workout on my phone trying to catch the results when that was going down. I remember that very distinctly.

That was wild. The Shogun one and that one were like the real weird ones for me. When you say weird, do you mean? Like afterwards,

like holy shit, I just beat Alexander Gustafson. Like I did that. You know, fighters always tell me this bullshit like I never even contemplate losing. I gotta tell you, I don't believe that. I don't believe that. You know, fighters always tell me this bullshit. Like I never even contemplate losing. I got to tell you, I don't believe that.

I don't believe that. I don't think they intentionally include it as part of like a projection or meditation. No, but it does have to creep in your mind, right? Oh, for sure. I mean, you do wrestle with like, what if, what if I get knocked out? What if they land this? What if they, whatever. Oh, like it's, I think typically it breaks down more specifically than that.

Like, what if Alexander Gustafson hits me with that uppercut? Like, it comes, like, I remember thinking about it and then checking it out in my head, like, well, who gives a shit? I didn't come here to win. Like, I didn't go to Sweden to get a win. It was nice that I got one, but that wasn't my, that wasn't, that wasn't the, that wasn't plan one. That wasn't plan A.

That was just a byproduct of what I wanted to do. What did you want to do? I just wanted to punch somebody. I was so mad about the Jon Jones fight. I think I said it that week in the media too. And I think everyone had this huge uproar that Anthony Smith just went here to get a paycheck or something.

But I didn't go there with the plan to get a win. I just wanted to perform and feel good about my performance. And if that meant that I got a win, then great um i had just i just fought john jones i just got crazy paid i was just coming off a title fight so i remember thinking like who gives a shit if i lose like fuck it i just want to go punch alexander gusselson in the face a lot that's why i fought the way i fought like i was i was throwing wild haymakers and just walking him down because i didn't give a shit about winning i just wanted to show up

that was i just didn't in the john fight and it just drove me crazy yeah but then when the gears shifted and you had his back well then then you were like oh fuck like okay yeah like we're here yeah we're here well i remember he got a takedown early, and I was like, I remember being so pissed about it. Not pissed that I got taken down. Like, it was getting in the way of the firefight that I was trying to get into. And then when I ended up on it, he shot again, and then I ended up on his back. Like, well, I guess I'll win while I'm here. You know, like, this wasn't the plan, but I'll take it.

What are your emotions then when he fouls you and there's this whole, like. Talking about John? Yeah, there's this whole like. Talk about John? Yeah, there's this whole moment where, you know, you could have become the champion. Yeah, dude, you could have backdoored the championship. We talk about it on the show. And I always give you respect for not doing it because I recognize in the moment that it was the competitor in you that was like, I don't want to do it this way. But you also got injured and fouled. So what are you thinking in that moment?

I don't think I was thinking a lot. It never even crossed my mind to not continue. What I can't do, what I can never do, is say I can't do it. In order for me to have, even if I wanted to take the title that way or get the DQ or get out of there, whatever that looks like, I would have had to say it out loud when they said, are you okay? I would have had to have, it would have had to have come out of my mouth, no, I'm not okay.

I've never said that. I've never said it. No matter how okay I was or wasn't, whether it was the Glover to Sheriff fight, or the knee from Jon Jones, or... Yeah, you could have quit in the Glover fight. No one would have been mad at you, and yet... But you have to say it, and I can't say it.

I cannot bring myself to say it, even if can't say it I cannot bring myself to say it Even if I'm thinking it Dude, I gotta say, you're the only guy I know Who's handed his teeth to a sports referee To hold during competition Hold these motherfucking teeth, bro Like, what? I gotta tell you, you realize that's a little crazy

I mean, you know I love you, but that's fucking crazy, right? It didn't seem crazy at the time Seemed pragmatic, I guess Hey, hold these fucking teeth. I'm going to need these later. They were kind of rolling around in my mouth and Glover hit me with like a shot from underneath and they popped out. And I remember they were just on the ground and I, for whatever reason, I grabbed them. I was like, why the fuck did I pick those up? Because now they're in my hand and I kind of need it. I was like, Herzog. I just handed it. It didn't seem weird. Like, it was just like, now they're in my

hand and i don't want them in my hand anymore so i just came to the ref glover glover's got a little steam on those punches huh he's heavy-handed for sure right there was a point surprised when he won the championship was i surprised were you yeah i asked were you not surprised given that you you know i wasn't before that no i wasn't surprised at all i wasn't surprised after being in there with him i wasn't surprised that he beat Tiago Santos. I thought that the Blachowicz fight would probably go the way that it did. And honestly, he made the Uri fight way harder

than it should have been. He should beat that guy nine times out of ten. He had his back a gazillion times, had not a gazillion times. It's the only time I've ever seen Glover make real terrible decisions. Yeah, usually he's pretty... Especially in jiu-jitsu.

They both kind of got drunk on the craziness. Yeah, I think yeah I was I was mad at Glover during that fight like where the hell was that guy when I fought? Like there was no Like when he was he was very very good on top he was it was he's one of the few guys man who like I'm out is Coming back. He's always had a good mount. Always. You know what I mean? Like once he gets there, he holds that shit, you know?

Even in half guard, like I'm, I'm pretty good for my back. I'm pretty good at, at creating space. And I mean, he had me, he had me stuck, stuck. I feel like I'm probably one of the few guys he hasn't sliced and diced through on the ground. Was able to slow him down and at least keep him in place for the majority of the fight. But he was tough on top. So then watching the Prohaska fight, like, what are you doing? Like, that is not you.

Because I got the goddamn monster. The Terminator that won't go away. He's playing with house money and just kind of going out there like, yeah, let's do it. You want to fight? I'll fight you. We've been talking about this. You get these boxers or MMA fighters, either one, right around 40, if they're still doing it, they just stop giving a fuck.

Yeah. And that's dangerous. They just stop giving a fuck. They'll do whatever. They don't care. And it's not like, I saw a similar twist for different reasons with Chris Lytle. Remember him back in the day when he became the bonus collector? Just out here not giving a fuck about what happens.

And that's dangerous. That's super dangerous. And I think I had a little bit of that in the Gus fight, and I think that's why it worked for me. But you can't be like that all the time. It's not going to always work. But, yeah, I was real mad about that. So do you have a two-parter here.

Do you have a favorite win, something you're most proud of, but also a loss that just really eats at you? You got one of those? I think the Shogun one is my favorite for sure, by far. He still had gas in the tank at that fight too. He still was. And I was legitimately a fan of his that night. It was the weirdest thing.

I was in the octagon and his music hit those speakers. And I remember like for a second, I was like, oh God, Shogun's fighting. Like I was pumped. I was like, oh shit, he's coming for me. I've got great seats for this. Yeah. So I had to turn it off really fast. Like, no, no, no, no, we can't do that.

But he was so, he was so stoic the whole time. Like he was exactly as you would have expected him to be. Very nice, very polite, but not overly nice and polite. Like he wouldn't speak to me. You know, it was a lot of like handshakes and head nods. And even afterwards, like when I was leaving for the hotel, like we had a lot of conversations with nothing being said. It was, I don't know, I was really grateful

for those interactions with Shogun. And the loss is obviously Jon Jones for sure. If I get beat fair and square, and it's just you were better that night, I'm okay with that. The Glover fight doesn't even bother me. I don't even think about it. I've never lost sleep over it.

So what's your issue with your performance specifically in the Jon fight? I just didn't show up. And Jon Jones is beatable. He's very beatable. I'm going to get roasted online for this, but he's not that good. That's an interesting quote. He's pretty fucking good.

Not individually. Like if you take his individual skill sets and you take them away, each one of those things are not a problem. It's when you put them together and he puts it into the full package that it's the problem. His fight IQ is not crazy high. He's well coached and he does what he's told very, very well.

Like if Winkle John, when I fought him, if Winkle John wasn't saying anything, John goes into a holding pattern. His holding pattern is the same. It's his stance switches. It's the oblique kicks. It's the front kicks to the body. And then once they start talking in code, then John goes and does what he's supposed to do. And then he comes back to his holding pattern is the same. It's his stance switches. It's the oblique kicks. It's the front kicks to the body. And then once they start talking in code,

then John goes and does what he's supposed to do, and then he comes back to his holding pattern. He doesn't actually make any decisions on his own. He's very well-coordinated. And that's a credit to him. Yeah, I was going to say, also, there is some credit to him. Well, yeah, isn't there something a little bit good to say about that? Oh, I'm not saying it's a negative.

The coach and the fighter are listening to one another. Yeah, I don't think it's a negative. I mean, his chin and willpower and recuperative ability, he's a 10 out of a 10. But if you take his boxing and if John and I were to just box, I don't think he's the GOAT. I think we have a very competitive

striking match. If we're just doing no-gi jiu-jitsu, I don't think John Jones beats me in a jiu-jitsu match. Wrestling? He probably wins that. It's not the individual skill set that he has. It's the way that he puts it together. It's his range and his distance management. He is a dog. He's got a lot of physical

gifts that he uses very well. His 84.5 inch reach? Non-issue. It's a total non-issue. I wasted an entire training camp worrying about it. Why is it a non-issue? Because he doesn't box like that. He doesn't use it upper body. His range is the problem from the waist down.

He uses his feet really well to get out of the way. He switches stances as he retreats so he's so long and tall that instead of shuffling back, he switches and steps back because he's so comfortable in both stances. How is his kicking? It's good. It's good.

It's good. His kicking game is good. I had a dead spot in my stomach for like two years where he front kicked me so many times to my belly button that it killed the nerves there. Oh, my God. And then as they started to come back to life, I would just out of nowhere be sitting there and feel like my whole stomach was on fire. Yeah.

See. Similar to my libido post-vestectomy. Yes, the three needles which traumatized me, we were all quite aware. This is what I mean when fighters tell me like, yeah, Chanjo's not that good. Also, I had a dead spot in my body because of him. It's like, you know what I'm saying? It's a little hard

to... I think maybe I speak I don't know, in absolutes. You popped the production. Yeah, I think maybe I speak, I don't know, in absolutes. You popped the roof. I popped the production. Yeah, I think maybe I speak in absolutes. Like he's, it's not like he does one thing that is, would make him like a specialist. So give me an example of like Habib is just better in grappling

than all the 155ers. He's a specialist. Right, right. He's a specialist. And like John isn't a specialist anywhere. Right. There's nothing that he's like a black belt level at. So how do you think he's going to do at heavyweight?

I think it's matchup specific, but I think he does generally well. Yeah. I think there's a couple guys that give him some serious problems. I think it's unfortunate if I'm John Jones that the steep A fight hasn't come together because I think that's probably one of the best matchups at the top of the division for John yeah because of speed I think just size in general like Stipe's pretty big right now but like when he by the time he gets to a fight Stipe's pretty lean so he's only 235 you know right by the time he gets in fight shape and he's ready to go he's probably 250 right

now but um John is getting jacked yeah John's big John he was big at 205 he's ready to go. He's probably 250 right now, but John is getting jacked. Yeah, John's big. He was big at 205. He was bigger than Stipe as a light heavyweight. So I think that there's some of that. I think Stipe's getting a little bit older. I think John's faster. I think he moves better. Stipe's very boxing heavy. He doesn't kick a lot, which changes

the range that he fights at. Did John have unnatural physical strength at all, like in the clinch or on the ground? No, which was really surprising he he uses leverage really well like in the clinch up against the fence and so he's you can just you can tell he's a fantastic wrestler he uses leverage very well but i didn't ever feel like a raw power strength he's not super powerful in his boxing you know but he's i remember he threw an overhand one time and I seen it coming for like an hour because it was like his wingspan was so big and it was just it was fast for sure so he's pretty fast for his size well I can appreciate how introspective you are on your own performance in there was it a failure to pull the trigger well to be fair I

seen it coming for an hour and he still hit me with it. Well, there you go. There's some of that. Like the competitor in you, what is the burning feeling the most? That you could have done more? That you should have done more? That your game plan was off of what you planned? I think my game plan was way off. He's one of those guys that I think you see some things on film and then you get there and they're not there.

Or you watch the film and you completely miss stuff. Like the lower body, like we kind of generally glossed over the oblique kicks and front kicks. Like we talked about them, but it wasn't a real big point in the training camp. It wasn't like a big focus. I was worried about his reach and staying out of the wrestling exchanges and things along those lines. And then we get there. The reach is not a problem. The takedown attempts were generally not a huge deal

because he didn't have any intention of grappling with me anyways. So anytime he took me down, he backed out fast. So the takedowns ended up not being an issue anyways. But the lower half stuff that we just kind of like, oh, yeah, he's going to watch this, this, and this. Like, yeah, you'll be all right. It was not all right there. That was part of the issue.

And I was kind of stuck in neutral the whole time. Like, I watched a lot. I got caught watching a lot. Is there something about the, they say, you know, the lights are brighter in the pay-per-view main event level. Is there any, does that become a factor that you have to overcome from fight week through walking out to the cage as the damn pay-per-view main event level is there any does that become a factor that you have to overcome from fight week through walking out to the cage as the damn pay-per-view main event uh i i think that i think that argument can be made i don't feel like it was an issue i don't feel like i cracked

under the pressure i think i just had the worst night of my life you know just competitively and honestly that's probably a lot to do with john i think that Wink and those guys and Brandon Gibson are fantastic coaches I can't say enough great things about about those guys as far as their coaching ability and the their game planning so I think the game planned really well for me and I think John executed very well um so I I'm not just saying I had a bad night and John got lucky I think that I think it's a mixture of the two. Interesting. Can we talk a little more about your injuries?

Because I see you got the scars on your hands now. Oh, yeah. What happened there? So this one, I had two surgeries on this one after the Gustafson fight. I threw a nasty check hook. I mean, it was so dirty. And Gus seen it late and went like that and tucked his chin. I hit him right on the top of the head and just shattered my hand. It was awful. So that was

early second round. You know how you know a fighter's been around for a while? It's because their hands are completely fucked. We have the ugliest Corey Anderson in here. Oh, yeah. His fucking hands. They're just shit growing out of them. They're flipping off people across the street without realizing

yeah there's like gremlins popping out you can't put water on it after midnight and shit it's unbelievable yeah I got the ugliest fucking hands so what happened with the other one? the other one first break was on Josh Neer it's amazing that by the way

you're a 205er and you fought Josh fucking Neer yeah that's wild that's just that's some old regional shit right there the first time I fought him was a catchweight at 175 and then the first time I fought him was a catchweight at 175. And then the second time

I fought him was at middleweight. It was weird. He was my first fight when I got cut from the UFC and he beat me and he was my last fight on the regional scene

before I got re-signed. Wild. The original dentist. The original dentist, yeah. All right. Hold on, hold on. I want to go through this. So you got the hands

that are fucked up. Yeah. Where else have you had surgery? It's like your ankle in particular, right? Yeah, I just had surgery. So there's my newest. That's a nice little thingy. That's fresh, yeah.

Yeah, that's a new one. So that was in the alkali fight. I had, so I fought Ryan Spann, tore my LCL, had surgery. And then while they were in there, they did a scope or whatever. And then two weeks later, I ended up with staph infection. So I had to go back in, do a washout. That's fun. I was on a PICC line doing IV antibiotics at home for like seven weeks.

Took me 10 months to get back from that because staph infection just absolutely wrecks. Like it wrecks everything. Like it'll just turn the muscle off. So then it took forever to get it firing. It also weakens tendons and ligaments Yeah, crazy atrophy and so took me ten months to come back to the onkoliophytes and then break my ankle So then I had one that I got the blood clot if you guys knew that I got a blood clot Where do you have a blood clot? It's my calf

Do those are fucking danger? You can die? So what is the plan for that? I've been on blood thinners since September 6th, I believe. Dude, that's a long time. I fought July 30th. Yeah, since September 6th, I've been on blood thinners. So like when I fly, like traveling here, I do injections in my stomach. Do you really?

Yeah. In the dead spot that Jon Jones did? No, but honestly, in that spot, it, traveling here, I do injections in my stomach. Do you really? Yeah. In the dead spot that John Jones did? No, but honestly, in that spot, it does feel weird because I have to alternate sides. Damn. Yeah. Okay. What about your shoulders? Are they all right?

Shoulders are good. I actually haven't had too many. No, my neck is trashed. Your neck is trashed? My neck is trashed for sure. Yeah. I need the same surgery that Bisbing, Weidman, Aljo, the disc replacements. Oh, right.

I need two new ones. And your dentist must be a rich motherfucker every time you roll up in there. Yeah, right? Yeah, they enjoy me there. Yeah. Your smile keeps improving, though, with each one. Yeah, I know.

It's like we got a plan for you, Anthony. Come here. And then, yeah, I've been super fortunate to not have any shoulder injuries because shoulders are tough to come back from. Yeah, this one. Okay, Luke, trivia question. Before the ankle, can Anthony Smith dunk with ease?

Ooh. I'll say yes. No. No? No. What? You don't have ups? No, not really.

I don't believe that. No. I bet. I can touch the rim. I bet with like a little bit of practice you could do it. Yeah, I think if I focused on it. Yeah, yeah. But I've tried a couple times.

It's never worked out. All right. I got bad knees, though. I've always had knee problems, like real bad'm focused on it. Yeah, yeah. But I've tried a couple times. It's never worked out. All right. I got bad knees, though. I've always had knee problems, like real bad knee issues. Yeah, dude, you know, I'll tell you what. How old are you now? 34. 34.

I got to tell you, Anthony, at 34, the way I felt, and I'm not a world-class athlete. I'm nothing. But just as a person trying to do shit in the world, at 34, you could definitely tell, okay, this is not quite like 24. Dude, let me warn you. Let me warn you. After 40, it goes down a fucking cliff.

I cannot overstate the difference. It is as advertised. So how do guys like Dan Henderson last so long? Well, remember, Dan was on TRT for a while. Yeah, I was going to say, these Brazilians, that's probably the answer. But also, Dan's also a very special athlete. a while. Yeah, I was going to say. These Brazilians, that's probably the answer. But also, Dan's also a very special athlete.

Listen, they're a course to any scenario. Or like Anderson. Anderson fighting right now. Like, that's insane. Could be the supplements, I guess. You know, Jesus and acai are popular. You know what I'm saying? Did you watch the ADCCs?

Oh, yeah, dude. Did you see the freaks at that own... So, like, during my last training camp, I went and grappled with... I trained with Nicky Rod. Oh, he's a handful. It was one of the worst experiences I've ever been through. Yeah. The guy's

a purple belt. I didn't even... I almost wanted to leave my black belt there. Like, you can... I don't deserve this. There's, like... But here's the thing. Like, I'm a good black belt there. Like you can, I don't deserve this. There's like, there's black belt. Like I'm a good black belt. Like I've competed in. I know. I know some guys that roll with you.

They've told me that. And he fucking starched me for like an hour and a half. I can't tell you if we wrote, we rolled for like an hour and a half. If we're just, if we said we were in there for 90 minutes of rolling, I couldn't pinpoint 35 seconds where i was in a in a not not dominant position in a neutral position i didn't i spent under a minute in

a neutral position he barbecued me yeah yeah those guys it's funny a buddy of mine is a ryan hall black belt and i've been asking him like like how the fuck is this guy because remember when he went to 80s not this past ADCC but the cycle prior he also did well he was a blue belt at the time he had beaten um Orlando Sanchez remember he was a green or black belt and uh I was asking him he's like well how is it possible how's it fucking possible for a guy to do this his basic argument was like he doesn't know the full totality of jiu-jitsu like in that way but the part he's got down he can weaponize against almost any level when it closes you he boxes you into just that yes like he's very good at keeping you in that right that's right i feel like if i would have gotten outside of that box like if i could have got him in closed guard

i think i could have slowed it down a little bit. Right. But I never got there. It was... Like, how was Nicky Rod's guard game? It's probably not great. It's probably not. You know what I mean? Close to the level. And he never touched my legs. Yeah, but his leg locks

and his top control are fucking... Craig Jones did the same thing to me. He never touched my legs and dusted me. Really? Dusted me. Did you go down to B-team?

Like, how did you... No, I trained with... I went to B-team and trained with Nicky. But I trained with Craig at the Apex before that... that we did that the quintet quintet event yeah that was a fun one yeah so i trained with craig there and that was my first experience even with like i fought hodja gracie and we were in a lot of grappling exchanges craig jones my first world i was like

wow this this is different This is a totally different. I've been in there with a lot of really good black belts. I've trained with a lot of good ones. It's unfair to those guys to even say that they're like black belt level. It's almost unfair to guys like me. We're like, we're not the same. There should be another belt level. There should be another belt level above black. another belt level above Whatever that is is what Craig And you know all those guys

It's impossible to explain And then to watch someone beat Nicky It's unfathomable to me It doesn't make Gordon did it in two and a half minutes What? My brain can't I can't accept that

I watched it with my own eyes. Yeah, yeah. But to watch a guy that did what he did to me, like he manhandled me for 90 minutes. To watch it happen to him is, it doesn't make any sense. It bothers me, to be honest with you. They're heroes. They're specialists.

Like he's, Gordon Ryan's not human. And I, you know, it's funny. I've been asking like really good grapplers, like professional grapplers, like, you know, explain to me why Gordon Ryan's so good. They kind of struggle with it actually a little bit. They don't have like a unified theory of his greatness. They're just kind of like, well. I can tell you why Nicky's good.

Tell me why Nicky's good. I mean, for the same reasons we just talked about. Like he's very good. His over-under passing is really, really good. His body lock passing is good. I heard his body lock is tremendous. His body lock passing is fantastic. And he's...

He's a good guy to run the pipe to. He does a good job at keeping people out of actual positions. So we were never in half guard. We were never in side control. Even his back control is different. So it's hard to defend because it's not your traditional positions. Athletic is shit. He's strong as fuck.

He keeps you. He constantly keeps you defending while he's being. It's like you're defending in the past, but he's already going to the submission. But like Gordon, I can't even. I couldn't even tell you. Yeah, it's amazing. Hey, I want to talk to you about something that I think would be,

you'd be the most appropriate guest for this, given how BC has been, you know not the nicest but also i've had my own problems with finding the right lane for like what is fair and appropriate fighter criticism what does that sound like the reason why i think i think it's important for you to be in this conversation is for two reasons one i think you've been at the receiving end of some of that but two you might be dishing it out because now that you've been at the receiving end of some of that. But two, you might be dishing it out because now that you've been doing commentary, I have seen fighters get quite upset with you in certain scenarios.

What does responsible, fair criticism sound like? What are the rules you employ? I think if you're a professional athlete at this level, anything that you do in the octagon is fair. It's fair game to criticize. I don't ever talk about anybody personally. I don't talk about anyone's. I never talk about Jon Jones' personal life.

That's an example. It's hard to ignore. It is. It's harder to avoid it than it is to talk about it. I don't know how you could talk trash with him and not do that. Because it's like the only, you know, it's like. Yeah, I've never really attacked him personally. I've never talked about his decision making, unless it's like a legal thing where it's a story.

Right. But as far as like his personal life, never talked about it ever. Never criticized him for it. But I mean, I'm just, I'm just honest with what I see as far as their skill set and their abilities. I think that all that is fair. And as mad as I've gotten at people for criticizing me, I still think that it's fair. And fighters do get very, very upset. Are you surprised at how upset they get?

They get mad at DC too. Because it's real. What hurts the most is the things that are true. And I think that some of it is fighters' egos. I think we all have a little bit of an ego. I think you have to to compete at this level. So I think when people are critical of something that you're so passionate about and that you work so hard on, I think that that's, you know,

I get upset when people criticize my commentary or my desk work because I'm so passionate about it and I work so hard at it. So, again, though, I put myself out there, I put myself on TV, and I leave myself open for criticism. That's fair. I mean, sometimes I know that because we have so many hours to fill and we do an entertainment show that we can go too far and anyone can hear that at any time and get super upset.

I also get that no one wants to see people like me talking about the actual analysis of it and they could just be like, fuck off. I think get that no one wants to see people like me talking about the actual analysis of it and they could just be like, fuck off. I think that's some of it too. You have that respect factor being that you've not only been there, you're still there. Shouldn't that get you out of any of these issues? Are fighters

still mad because you didn't believe in them? I've only had one say it to me. I've seen people upset about it online, but I've only had one person come to me face to face seen people upset about it online, but I've only had one person come to me face-to-face about it. Can you tell us about it? Yeah, it was Cynthia Calvillo. Really? She was upset.

She was upset. From something you said at the desk? Yeah, yeah. And to be fair, I don't remember who she fought. I wish I could remember the girl's name. But essentially, I picked against her. And the picks, like for any fighters listening to this, the picks are bullshit. Like the analysis is true.

We just have to pick. I hate doing picks. We don't always know. Like I don't know. Like I can tell you if this, this, and this happens, here's who will likely win. Right. This person doesn't do this, here's likely. I can lay out a case for you.

Right. But I don't know how convincing it is. You don't get visions. I get it. I saw Woodley go well in advance. I don't know how convincing it is. You don't get visions. I get it. I saw Woodley go well in advance. I don't know how they slept last night. I don't know if they have injuries. I don't know how banged up they are.

We did all this analysis and all these breakdowns and all these picks on the Aljo-TJ Dillashaw fight, and then he went in there one-armed and incapable of winning. So, like, I mean, that tells you all you need to know. But I had said in the analysis that if Cynthia Calvillo wasn't able to get into grappling exchanges and get a takedown and force the grappling, that she was not going to be able to win the striking and that she probably would be unlikely to win.

But then if this girl, I wish I could remember who it was, but if she was able to keep it striking, then Cynthia was going to lose that. So I thought it would be one-way traffic if each one of those girls got to their spots. That's fair. Turns out Cynthia Calvillo loses all the striking exchanges, wins all the grappling exchanges, and the fight's a fucking draw.

So, like, I couldn't have been any more right. Right. But I think it's sometimes the way that, I think the way that they listen to it is not always the way that maybe I mean it, if that makes any sense. Marina Rodriguez, was that the fight our staff is telling us? Probably. Was that a draw?

Was that a draw? Was it the draw gaffe? Yes, it was. Yeah, then that would have been it. Yeah, the Marina Rodriguez fight. Yeah, now that I'm older, I think my rule is try to be as humane as possible. Yeah. Try to be as understanding as possible.

And, you know. Not to cut you off, but the humane thing is really hard in some of the fights. Like, Carla Esparza this week, it's a tough one.

Yeah. Like, Kaitlyn Shukagian versus Valentina Shevchenko. Yeah. It's really tough to. Like, how do you say, I don't see a path for this? How do you say it in a way that's not going to hurt her feelings? Right. Like, there's really tough to... How do you say, I don't see a path for this?

How do you say it in a way that's not going to hurt her feelings? Right. I don't know that you can. I can't. I don't know that you can. I can't. I really like Kaitlyn Shikagan. Although she doesn't have the most fan-appeasing style,

I appreciate her game and how hard it is to fight the way she fights. There was no path to victory that I've seen for her. So then it's hard to sit up there on ESPN. I can't convince the viewer that there's a path to victory for her. There isn't. I think Carla Esparza is one of the sweetest people that I've ever talked to. I think that her run and her career and what she's been able to do up to this point is amazing. I don't see a path to victory for her tonight.

I just don't. Could she slow Whaley down a little? I don't, probably not. I don't think so. Where do you say that? How do you say that without being a dick? You can't. You have to be honest,

and then you have to get to a point where you're just like, for me to do my job the right way, I can't worry about who I offend, and I don't want to be enemies with anybody, and I don't want to one day get my ass kicked in public either, but I also can't stop being the best I can at the job.

That's just, I mean, you got to get to that point. But since you're in the interesting position where you're on both sides, media and fighter, when you see the recent scenario that happened with TJ Dillashaw against Aljo, connected with the fact that we, as media, praised, I think rightfully so, Francis Ngannou for knowing he had an injury against Gon,

yet going in there, given his contract status, and gutting it the hell out when he shouldn't even been walking. But then when TJ does something somewhat similar, we kind of villainized him. And I think we were right based on the facts that TJ gave himself in the post-fight interview,

but you know, the fighter side, which is maybe he really needed that paycheck. Maybe it had nothing to do with the paycheck. I don't know. He denies it. It's the pay. How do you see that since you're on both sides?

I think those are different. Knees and shoulders are completely different. You can have a bad, you know, what Conor tore his ACL or something in that first, in that Max Holloway fight. Yeah, well, during the Holloway fight and then he had a fucked up knee during the Mendes fight. Like, depending on the injury,

you can get through knee injuries and still win fights. Like, I tore my ACL in the Ryan Spann fight. I was able to get a win. It's not too many guys that got blown shoulders that are coming out of sockets that you're still able to fight. Like your arms are pretty important. Not that your legs aren't, but I think those are just completely different entries.

Well, dude, the knee only the hip rotates, but the knee only bends one way, right? The shoulder goes in any number of different directions. It's a much more mechanically complex joint,

which means it's way more fragile. I've had this one repaired from stupid-ass weightlifting accident. It's probably not the same. It's never been the same. Right.

It never will be. It's never been the same. It's still good enough to do what I basically need, but like, if you do, like if I do high reps on anything,

I can feel the burn inside the shoulder joint yeah in a way that never ever appeared on this one yeah it's different so I think shoulders are different but I also there's no again I'm speaking in absolutes I guess so I try not to do that but there's no way that they all thought he was gonna win there's no way you can't beat Aljamain Sterling a grappler a wrestler with one arm and by the way like

there's no way that they thought he could win and by the way if he was fully healthy how would that fight have gone probably who the hell knows right

I don't know but one of the things that dude I'm a fucking zero even I was like dude I don't know Aljo catching those kicks is gonna be a problem for him look at the Jan fight

like that was a key weapon right sure enough sure enough first one he catches and then posts and the problems begin. I'm like, dude, what kind of risk calculus is this? What did he

think was going to happen? I have no fucking idea. That's where I'm at with this. So what does he do when he's in that spot where I don't know how much he's going to have left. I don't know if his body can hold together. Maybe he never gets another title opportunity and given the big gaps in his career. I mean, was the one he had worth it? Well, what should he have done?

I mean, I guess he should have, when he says in April, his shoulder got injured and it was, you know, popping out 20 something times during camp. To me, that's a sign. Should he, if he would have- By the way, did you hear he also had staff?

So he had staff, then had to take medicines for it, which made the, the- Right. Everything weaker to begin with. It's like, dude, what are you doing? This is not, you are not I mean, this, the fucking

arrogance, if he actually believed he could win like that, is unmatched. It's insane. If he actually believed that. I know he's super tough, and maybe there is a part of him that believed that. I understand that, but it's and you've got to accept that there's going to be a degree of irrationality, according to normal people, that fighters are going to embrace.

This is indefensible irrationality. It is. It's too far. And also, dude, people are paying tickets for this shit. They're buying pay-per-views for that. They're not buying that for you to be in the condition where you can't fight. I think it goes into some of the betting issue too. Right.

That we're having. I will give his team credit. They kept it under wraps. Yeah. Which was good. They did a great job. They did a great job keeping it hidden. But, like, there's a reason that in most other professional sports,

you have to, like, there's reports on injury. There's injury reports that have to come out. And a large part of that is so that bettors are aware of who's injured and who's not injured. Like, I'm not going to, if you're betting football, like, and the starter's injured, you don't want to I'm not gonna be for betting football like in the starters injured You don't put the bet in and then you don't know that until the game start right like that's that's not necessarily fair so like I'm not saying the fighters need to start reporting their injuries because you just put everyone would have to report and I don't know how you I

don't know how you I Don't know. How do you make sure that nobody's lying? You know, I mean like how do you force that there's no yeah there's no way to enforce that but um i think on the betting side of that that looks really ugly yeah all right man well let's talk about this with the time we have remaining which is um i don't know with this what your prognosis to return is tell me about that first and then tell me secondly like what's what does 2023 look like if it's a good year for you so i'm hoping to fight at the end of march um i should i should be off of the blood thinners pretty soon the blood clot stuff's going well so um i'm as far like i'm i'm still going through physical therapy i'm in strength and conditioning i just can't do any uh like contact stuff because

i'm on so much like the blood thinners are so heavy that I took a hard shot to the head like They're worried about brain bleeds and right and and all those issues So I can't do any contact stuff right now, but I'm hitting pads and training and as much as I can so I'm hoping to fight at the end of March and then if it's a good year, I'd like to I'd like to fight March and then maybe like October that That would be ideal for me. And then I'm going to chase the title again. I think I was really close. I think,

I think a win over Uncle Ive would have gotten me there. I think that would have been enough to, to have them. I don't think they would have made the Glover Yuri rematch. I think that would have been. You would have beaten Uncle Ive. Yeah. Yeah.

I think, so I think, I think I'm a couple away. I think I can get another win. If I get a big win, I think it would take maybe one more, and I think we're back in a title shot. It's always been the goal, man. As soon as I don't think I can win the title, as soon as I'm not competitive, there's no reason for me to be here anymore.

I'm lucky enough that I've created a lot of opportunities for myself outside of fighting that I'm not here to stick around until I'm 40. You know what I mean? I already got over 50 fights. I don't want to overstay my welcome. You know, I feel like I took – I think you've got to kind of pass that torch, and I don't mean that in, like, some way where I'm trying to be some super humble guy. Like I took the shine from Rashad, and I took it from Shogun,

and maybe took it from Gus a little bit. Once I pay that back a couple times, and I'm not competitive with those young guys anymore, they can fucking have it, and I'll be done. I don't want to stick around for fun fights and money fights. Separate from the title, which you're telling us that's your focus. If it's not the title, I don't want to be there, and I respect that. Is there anybody that you're like, well, if we can make it work, I'd really like to fight them?

And that could be I can make a lot of money against them. I want to get them back. I mean, is there anybody that you're like, like man i need to fucking fight that guy again not at the top of my head but i would like like masvidal's pretty lucky like he's got he's gotten to have like a couple really fun fights like i think one one fight that maybe doesn't really mean a lot like divisionally or in the rankings or i think one super fun one that's just because it makes sense because people would like to watch it. You know, a big old fat check wouldn't be terrible either, but like the BMF title thing, that's just fun.

It meant nothing. I don't think anybody cared who really won or lost that fight. They did nothing one way or the other for either one of those guys. I think one of those would be fun. I just don't know who that would be with. When I was younger, I think like a Nick Diaz fun. I just don't know who that would be with. Would you ever? When I was younger, I think like a Nick Diaz thing was always a lot of fun to me. Like I think a Nick Diaz, obviously not now, that would be unfair and feel gross.

But like something like that would be a lot of fun. Part of you want to rematch Maheta? No. He's gone. He's gone anyway. Yeah, no. No, there's nothing. There was nothing fun about that.

Yeah, yeah. It was not a lot of fun. It was not a lot of fun. I felt like that dude hit me with a baseball bat a couple times. Yeah, but the rackage one I think you want back, right? For sure. For sure. He's banged up too.

Huge. Yeah, he's a big boy. I seen him in Paris. Yeah. And, excuse me, walked up to him and said, how much do you weigh? Take a guess. How much do you think he weighs? So we're off camp, right?

Yeah. Yeah, he's out of camp. 240? 250. Ooh, damn. He is, with like, when we met, we shook hands and quick hug. And, you know, I'm scoping him out still, so I give him a little pat on the stomach.

Full six-pack. Full six-pack, 250. Like 247, I guess. Huge. And you're like, I want to fist fight this man. I do. I do. Like he's a large heavyweight.

That's the last thing I'd want to do. He's like an average to large-size heavyweight. It was crazy. I couldn't believe how big he was. You could fight a heavyweight for fucks. I would. I would. Actually, when I was trying to get there,

before I got to Onkelia fight, I was willing to fight anybody. So there was some heavyweights that I was totally willing to fight. Like Jon Jones. I would totally fight Jon Jones. But I was asking for some of the smaller heavyweights, and no one was available.

But I would have for sure. That'd be sick. That would be. That'd be kind of fun to see a guy from middleweight go up to heavyweight. That's some Fedor shit. Yeah, it'd be cool to get a win in three different weight classes. That would be. There's not many guys who can say that.

I think Andrade has wins in three different weight classes. 115, 125, 135. Frankie's got wins. Yeah. And some other ones. How about Frankie? Does Frankie win? Does he win tonight?

Well, this will be out afterwards. I don't know, dude. 15 yards is good. Yeah, he's pretty good. Those leg kicks. Yeah. And you know what? This is...

Father, look. The gray is eating my face. You know? I know. But Frankie on that deus this week, he looked old. Yeah. He looked old. Yeah. He looked old.

He's always had a semi-youthful kind of vibe to him. He wasn't super playful looking. No. No. He's been through the ringer. It scared me. What are your non-fighting goals? I mean, how do you look at this broadcasting run?

And, you know, I see you with BizPing. I see you with a lot of people. I mean, you're making, starting fresh shows. You're making a lot of appearances. You're really getting the reps in. Is there an end game in there? What drives you in the broadcasting side? Well, eventually I want to get to the cage side stuff,

you know, and do the color. I think my skill set is better utilized cage side. I'm not a great promotional guy. Like Bisping and Chael and DC, on top of being fantastic minds they're they're really good at getting people excited like they sell pay-per-views better than like better than anybody so i'm not the promotional guy i'm not that's not my strong suit i'm not the the rah-rah let's get pumped you know this is not me so i think that being i think i'm closer to like a Paul Felder, like very analytical and can explain to you the why and the why

and do it in a way that I think the casual fan can understand. So I want to make it to the cage side stuff eventually. But the problem is the America-based team is so strong. There's just not a place for me. And that's obviously a huge positive for the UFC. It's hard to break into that group because those guys are so strong. There's just not a place for me. You know, and that's obviously a huge positive for the UFC. It's hard to break into that group because those guys are so good. So, I think once we start traveling again and you start getting those more

international shows, I think that, you know, DC and Felder aren't going to want to do the small shows in Brazil all the time. UFC Moncton? Yeah, they're not going to want to do a lot of those. So, I think that that's maybe where I can cut my teeth and have an opportunity to get in there. You fought Uzdemir on one of those shows.

Moncton. Moncton, yeah. That guy was tough. What province is Moncton in? Is it Saskatchewan? I don't know. I don't know. Is it like Prince Edward Island or something?

I don't know. It's probably up at JP's house in Nova Scotia there. It was a weird place. Very nice people. Well, this is a weird place. This is a weird place. You find yourself in weird places this is a weird place. This is a weird place. You find yourself in weird places all the time when you hang around us, man. I do.

Well, I got to tell you, Anthony, it's been wonderful having you here, man. Yeah, that time just flew by, man. It did. So you think March, maybe? Yeah, I'm looking to end March. And where can folks find your podcast? Yeah, so we have the Believe in Me podcast on anywhere you can find podcasts. You working with Brantendo on that shit?

Who? Brantendo, 65. No. I think he was the producer there. He was Bisping's YouTube guy for a while. He was a turncoat. I think maybe he's the guy that does Bisping's YouTube stuff. I think that's right.

Just Bisping's own personal stuff. Oh, wait. Quick final question in this about sort of what could be next for you. You know, we cover Jake Paul for a living at times through Showtime, and we feel like we give fair analysis. You've been critical, you know, coming off of the Nate win of, you know, well, Jake's getting really good, man. So maybe he should be fighting bigger opponents.

We just saw Uriah Hall make the transition. Do you have any post-UFC itch? And don't say, yeah, I'm going to be the next champion in the Slapdick League. I mean, what the hell is going on, Dano? Spend your money somewhere else. I was at the pilot event. I called as a commentator for the pilot event for the slap fighting. Yeah, what am I missing here?

Why do I think this is trash and this is great? It was fucking awesome. It was one of the best experiences I've ever had. If you took the top ten knockouts I've ever seen live in my whole life, five of them happened that day. Not a lot of defense in that league. Not a lot of defense. No, and the people that signed to do that

are exactly the type of humans you would imagine they are. They are maniacs. And they're really interesting people. I had so much fun. I had a lot. Alright. If you can get broadcasting work there, go get it. But do you have any interest in this crossover boxing boom?

Could we one day see you in the Jake Paul's weekstakesstakes i mean what's going on here no i don't think so i i think it would be fun again like one of those fun kind of weird fights but i i don't i i don't i don't want to be one of those guys that retires from mma because when i retire it'll be because i can't hang at the highest level anymore. So I don't want to do the weird boxing crossover, then bare knuckle, then like, you know, that's where UFC fighters go to die. Yeah, that's MMA pornography. I say, to be very fair, I say that, who knows, because I'm sure lots of guys say that. Well, they may offer a really nice paycheck one time, and you're like, well, this is a vacation home right there.

Yeah, like Ben Ashgren was done until he wasn't. So, like, there's organizations out there that got enough money to drag anyone out of retirement. So I don't suspect that happens, but you never know. Jake Paul would be a fun fight, though, because he is good. You are more his size. Yeah, and his age. You're a little bit bigger than him, but, yeah.

Yeah, and we're closer in age. He's not too bad these days. His horse bit Luke, but we can move on from that. All right. Well, I just wanted to say it was great to have you here. Well, thanks for having me. Thanks for making the effort to come in studio. Yeah.

Omaha style-y 311. Omaha style-y. Yeah. Favorite 311 memory? I wasn't really a big 311 fan. Oh, man. That's a lie. Yeah, we're older.

Isn't that a requirement of citizenship in Nebraska? You got to be a Husker fan. Husker fan. Husker fan. Oh, man. That's a lie. Yeah, we're older. Isn't that a requirement of citizenship in Nebraska? You got to be a Husker fan. Husker fan. Husker fan. Yeah, that's pretty fair. Ladies and gentlemen, the great light heavyweight, podcaster, commentator, analyst, dad. Lionheart.

It's Lionheart Anthony Smith. We're out.