MORNING KOMBAT WITH LUKE THOMAS AND BRIAN CAMPBELL - Chuck Mindenhall on Dana White, The MMA Beat & Upcoming Fights He's Excited For | Room Service Diaries

Episode Date: September 27, 2022

Luke Thomas and Brian Campbell sit down with MK's good friend, 'The Man In The Hat', Chuck Mindenhall. The guys discuss Mindenhall's MMA journalism career, Dana White, his time at ESPN and what the best fight he has seen in person is. Plus, they also talk about which upcoming fights they are most excited for. Get MORNING KOMBAT merchandise now: https://morningkombat.store/ #MorningKombat #chuckmindenhall #danawhite #mma #ufc #espn #espnmma #joesilvawrites #MMAReporters (00:00:00) - Intro (00:01:10) - Growing up in Colorado (00:04:10) - Getting into Writing (00:20:45) - Dana White (00:28:00) - First Big MMA Paycheck (00:30:50) - ESPN MMA Dream Team (00:34:30) - Connecting with his fans (00:36:45) - Favorite thing Chuck has written (00:44:20) - 90s Music (00:46:50) - Best Fight He's Seen in Person (00:50:00) - MMA Beat (00:53:40) - Lessons he learned from MMA (00:55:00) - Joe Silva Incident (00:58:00) - Advice for aspiring writers (00:59:45) - Which Fight was he most excited for? (01:01:00) - Reading Recommendations (01:07:08) - END Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Introducing the new McSpicy from McDonald's. It looks like a regular chicken sandwich, but it's actually a spicy chicken sandwich. McSpicy. Consider yourself warned. Limited time only. And participate in McDonald's in Canada. Alright, so Jake's shooting right now. Are you in character?

Not yet, hold on. Tell us when you're in character. Hey, will you scratch my balls? I have lung and pox. You know what the thing that's awesome right now is we got the couch over there No, only we're not bringing in a big star Yeah, yeah we are I mean it was it because we couldn't get anybody else because we just love this guy because the people They do love them. We'll make Halloween though

Look at those shorts man They do love them. Column A, column B though. Look at those shorts, man. Bermuda shorts. So these have become the official shorts of Morning Combat. And I'm not going to say that I have the muscularity in my legs to pull this off, despite the fake tan left over from the cruise. But I commit to the part, I commit to the brand. I don't know what I got myself into here. Well, if it's not Pornhub, it's definitely whatever event is coming up because I think he studies on the fly like this right before we talk about something.

Dude, I look terrible here. I look bunched up. The vaping, the edibles. I suck my fucking dick. This is what I deal with when I come in here. People are always like, do you script these interactions? No, this is a journey. Our sound guy's dropping a deuce right now. This is the migration and growth of men.

All over you, all over me. They do know I can hear them, right? Well, normally when we do these, we have people who are good at fighting. But you can look at all three of us and tell that's not the case. They didn't show up this time. Instead, what we decided to do was we decided to talk about a guy who is maybe the very best writer we've ever had who has covered fighting. You know him very well.

You've seen him on pregame previews. You've seen him on all of his work in various places over the years, ESPN, MMA, fighting. He is our friend and yours. Let's get to know a little bit more about the Iceman himself, the man in the hat, Chuck Mendenhall. Hi, Chuck. How are you?

Fellas. I got invited to the room. I'll take this. This is very nice. This is very nice. Chuck, you fit in seamlessly in terms of this weird MK environment and this incubator. The opposite of how I fit in this chair. You compliment our eccentricity so perfect.

But this time we said, we want you to be the subject. I had a lot of friends in high school. So, you know, I could hang out with the stoners. I could hang out with the death metal guys. Yeah. I could hang out with the jocks. You know what I mean?

So did you go to the same high school all four years? Three years. Three years. Chicks, dicks, chains, whips. Yeah. No, my school was a sophomore through senior. Where did you grow up? I grew up in Denver, Colorado.

So Horizon High School. Is that where you were born? I was, yeah. What year did you graduate high school, if you don't mind me outing? Yeah, you're old as fuck. 2001. Yeah, right, bitch. 1991.

Oh, God. Okay, so I was in seventh grade, but that's a great time culturally. Were you really in seventh grade? I was in seventh grade, 91. 91, I was in seventh grade, but that's a great time culturally. Were you really in seventh grade? I was in seventh grade in 91. In 91, I was in fifth grade. Wow. Because I graduated class of 96 high school. And you guys are always talking about how washed you are.

Come on, man. I feel younger than you cats. Chuck, tell me about prime Chuck. 17-year-old Chuck, 18-year-old Chuck, 1991. I'm sure you might have had hair back then. What does this guy look like? What does he sound like? What is he thinking?

What were you like? What are we on question from 1991? Very much into like, uh, industrial, you know, the industrial music that was going on in the day, like, no, like, you know, uh, two, four, two, uh, that's those sorts of bands. I was a big sixts guy, too. Like, I loved all the 60s music at this era, which is kind of strange to think back on. You were the asshole who was pumping Zeppelin in the 90s? Not, I mean, more the psychedelic 60s, I would say.

Oh, okay. You know what I mean? So, and doing some psychedelics to go along with that. That's Denver. Oh, man. Colorado style. Very Denver. Yeah.

So, it was all good, you know, but it was a unique thing. And always a fisherman. Grew up out in Colorado. Grandpa was from Leadville, Colorado, which is like at 10,000 feet. And all my father's side is basically from, you know, the mountains in Colorado. So when did you start writing and, like, realize you had a gift for it? Oh, man, that's just a tough one. Letters to home from prison that time. It was close. No, I would say that, um,

to be honest, man, it was, it was, I always look back at this and wish I'd done it earlier. I was very good. I wrote for like my college paper, um, in Denver, like just doing some basic articles and stuff, but never really considered being a writer for years you know after that but uh i came back to it at some point in the late 90s uh and took a job at la weekly which is an alternative news weekly out in los angeles and that's kind of village voice exactly their own the same umbrella same umbrella so i uh i started writing about music mostly um and that's kind of how it started man I just started uh putting words together and like you know I I think I read a lot you know like as you read and if you feel like you're getting something from the reading material

and you really understand it the nuance of what you're reading eventually you're like I think I can write like this or I think I can do something and I grew up a big boxing fan in terms of the writing like I love the writers who used to write about boxing yeah back in the day Joyce Carol Oates I mean even Joyce Carol Oates I've read I've you know I grew up on all of that read a lot of that stuff and I thought when I was you know maybe around 2006 or 7 where's that voice in MMA I didn't know where it was I didn't know if it would exist I didn't even know if a voice like that could exist and that's kind of how it segued into that. But, um, I've always been a big, you know, uh, old sports illustrated the Mark crams of the world. You know what I mean? Like

those types I've always loved that stuff. So, um, it was just kind of as a natural thing, reading it first. And then eventually you're like, you know, I should try this. I bet I could write as well. You didn't write like at all in high school? What did you do in high school? Not if it wasn't assigned. Weed. No, and I would say that I came up in a family that like I mentioned, my dad was

a military guy and I think he was sort of like, he was Army and Navy. He did both. He took a bite out of both apples. And he was in the submarines with the Navy. He did both. He took a bite out of both apples. He's in the submarines with the Navy. That's no bullshit. But he was kind of like one of those guys whose college was sort of

an abstract idea. It was more like military or get the hell out type of thing. It wasn't that type of environment when I was growing up. I kind of had to find it on my own. I didn't have the people in my household who were... You got siblings? I have two older siblings. I have my household who were, you know. You got siblings? I have two older siblings.

I have an older sister and an older brother. Do they have equally unusual careers? No, not as unusual. My brother is a mailman actually in Yuma, Arizona. My sister is more of a stay-at-home, you know, type. But she does a lot of, she sells crafts, things like that. Like she does some stuff on the side. But yeah, nothing like what I do. In fact, I'm pretty sure when I talked to my side of the family

that they're still not a real understanding of what I do. Oh yeah, I might as well work in pornography. I mean, that's sort of the truth. Well, I was excited because people know the man in the hat. They know your writing for years. I've always looked at you, and I say this as a compliment, as a survivor in this industry. This industry ain't easy for years. I've always looked at you, and I say this as a compliment, as a survivor in this industry.

This industry ain't easy. There's not a lot of jobs out there. There's not a lot of full-time jobs out there. There's not a lot of full-time jobs out there that pay well. You've found work, made your own work. I was your editor at ESPN for a hot second. Yes, you were. People forget that, man.

You and I have worked with Chuck prior to ever working with Chuck on MK. Yes. 2012, 2013, I was one of the MMA editors when we were on there. You worked with Luke forever. What do you sort of identify? And I know everyone hates talking about themselves if they're not a gloater. You know what I mean?

This is unique. I will say that. What do you think your role right now in combat sports media is? Because I look at you as the old wizard with the double merkin and just, you know. The double merkin. Double merkin. Got to cover that monkey pop. I don't know, to be honest.

Realistically, and I mean, we were talking about this before, you know, with what happened with the athletic. Just kind of, there was a reassessment period where you're like, maybe I don't want to be in this racket as much as I was. The writing aspect of it, man, it's like, you know, times change. From the time I started this game, writing was kind of, it was a big entry point for me to be able to do that. There were such things as Fight Magazine. I was doing cover stories with them.

I was traveling around doing major features all over the place. It's just kind of changed over the course of time. It's still valued as an art form. Yes. Now it's either a means to something else. Yeah, you you said i was i think it was a ben folks thing you said that like the writer you know opinion writing has kind of been lost through this whole process of you know has moved to audio and video right and i would say that that's kind of what i've been doing you know like we do a podcast at the ringer now and you know i do this stuff with you guys so a lot of the stuff I'm talking about is in person. I'm, I'm, I'm talking about it and it's that kind of ephemeral versus the other kind,

which, uh, which is the printed page, which is already gone. Um, I still prefer writing. Obviously it was like the kind of the way it came up. I still prefer reading like, uh, my material if, if you're getting it. Um. And you just want to understand something and it's nuances, a good piece of writing still translates better for me, but it is what it is in that sense. And I still write and I think I'll be writing more as we go on. It just, I wanted to take a little break from it. Just given some of the, like you mentioned a survivor after some of the things that happen over the course of time, you're like, you know what, man? Let me step back for a minute and take a break. We've all had that.

Look in the mirror. Should I be selling insurance? Is that more practical? Am I ever going to get there? For sure. Let me ask you, though, why do you think? What's your best read on why opinion has, it's still, we do a whole show on opinion.

It's not like opinion is gone. But why did opinion go from writing to podcasting and video podcasting? There's a point when Seth Wickersham, I think that's his name like he's a he's a writer like I saw a piece he did on ESPN I don't know when this is going to actually run but recently uh there's an exhaustion that comes with knowing a guy is actually going to be thoughtful and provocative and actually have a nuanced piece there's something about you got to commit and I feel like that that's where it is it's just gradually went away where people want to commit to something that nuanced or long,

especially long-form stuff. It killed the institution of marriage, lack of commitment. Yep. By the way, I was dying when you were talking to Uriah Faber. It wasn't this couch. He was like, let's talk about all the guys you trained and their dicks. He's like, hey, you're talking to Uriah Faber. It wasn't this couch. It was the one in Vegas. He was like, let's talk about all the guys you train and their dicks.

No, he said. I'm like, but he's like, hey, your dung is big right now. And you're like, you're ready to kill Brian. That was just the best. I actually didn't want to kill him. I actually was. Dude, you know Brian. I mean, he just, this is what he does, you know.

It's the greatest. I think it's great that you actually roll that shit out when, you know. A lot of people say that online and stuff, but anyway, where were we? I was talking about like why opinion. I think there's a, um,

it is a commitment to want to read long form. So the long form thing, and this is why one, and one of the big reasons I think the athletic disbanded, it's combat sports coverage so quickly is because they, I think originally they're like, Hey, where you guys can do features.

You can do what you want. This is, we're going to play in your wheelhouse, but they realized it's not what it was. They realized that fairly quickly're like, hey, you guys can do features. You can do what you want. This is what we're going to play in your wheelhouse. But they realized it's not what it was. They realized that fairly quickly. And so I feel like there's some kind of, I don't know, like people don't want to commit to a long article now. Do they still want to commit to the opinion article?

I feel like my bigger strength over time was the column, right? Like you'd write a column about what was going on, big picture stuff, paint a picture of what was happening. I still feel like that's viable. I feel like that's still out there, but I'm not sure because people still love to just see a piece of news and to discuss it now. There's so many platforms for people themselves to discuss it rather than just in a comment section or whatever it used to be. It's just changed. I mean, just the psychology around reading material and stuff like that. It's just changed the way people approach it the psychology around reading material and stuff like that, it's just changed the way people approach it.

Social media sped up our ADB in general. 100%. 100%. Everybody. And the speed and the attention and what you're willing to give to any individual piece of content. But let me push back a little bit. Why, or maybe it's coming, right?

Maybe it's coming. But why don't we see that? For example, I'll click open the Washington Post, which is my hometown newspaper. You can click open any sort of, you know, the ringer where you have written before. In other sports and other fields of life, I feel like people are still reading. Like when I get my technology news, I definitely go to get my video technology news.

I get my audio podcast. But I definitely read about it too. It seems at least somewhat specific to MMA. Well, we do cover cage fighting for a living. I mean, come on. You know what leadership design is? The truth is, too, like, I feel like a majority of people, if they click on a piece you've written,

maybe you just don't hear from them. To be honest, I think that the people who are more thoughtful actually don't comment on everything. Yeah, who are we actually hearing from? Who is that 1% that is reaching out and commenting? Because every now and again, when you hit one out of the park or, you know, for whatever reason, it goes, like, a lot of people read it.

You'll hear a ton from people, and you realize there are a lot more people reading it than you generally think, you know? So it can vary. I think that short bursts, 800 words, like, I always tried to make columns like about 800 words because I felt like that was the attention span. And if you didn't like that, in 800 words, you could scroll quickly to where you wanted to be.

You know what I mean? And you tried to like write it so that each little piece might, each paragraph might stand on its own if it was extracted. You know what I mean? Like there was a lot more thinking going into these types of pieces as time went on because of that. Websites are pressured to get clicks. Everybody went the aggregation route. It all kind of streamed together.

It's when you still see, and you're one of the authors that still produce these, when you still see a great read once in a while, it almost feels like something nostalgic about it. I remember what it used to be like when I got the physical newspaper to my door. And also, Chuck is one of the guys, and BC, tell me if you disagree, but I don used to be like when I got the physical newspaper to my door every day. Oh, man. And also, like,

Chuck is one of the guys, and BC, tell me if you disagree, but I don't think you do. I think he's on this couch for that reason. Chuck is one of the guys. There's a handful of them. You could put Ben Folk's

on the list and Sean L. Shoddy. Way back. Yeah. But there were guys where after the fight, there were columns that I saw out.

And I saw it out. I was like, what did you, and agree or disagree, that was a really, like, that was just a focal point of consuming fight coverage. Well, I'll say that I really appreciate

that because, honestly, that was... I did skim it, though. That was the... Yes, of course. I want to expect you to read word for word. He's like, first I could... A lot of it was dummy script anyway. I just plugged in a bunch of yada yada. I checked for my name. I checked for the morning combat. No, but I do appreciate that because I think when I set out, you're like, all you're trying to do is communicate, right? All you're trying to do is, I think it was A.J. Liebling back in the sweet science.

It was like, you know, on one end you're saying, I'm alive. And on the other end, they're saying, I'm alive. And you both are saying, we are alive, you know, and that's the point of writing. I feel like that that's kind of, that was the idea. Like you wanted to share an experience, sum it up for people, put it in big elevated, you know, spaces so people could digest it and have further conversation. That was always what it was about. So if I was able to accomplish anything like that, I'm happy for it and I'll still do it. I'm not saying I'm done, but I'm like, that was the whole goal.

But that's wild for all of us who were relatively around the same age, had been in the business relatively around the same amount of time. My first job in the newspaper business was at a paste-up newspaper. So we caught the tail end. We're the last generation to live without internet and cell phone on a daily basis

as adults, right? I had to put in movie times when I was an intern at the Marietta Daily Journal. So we're sort of that fertile time to have viewed this whole transition.

So what was the first year you covered MMA at a high level? But speaking real quickly about being the last, I just watched, what was it? It was the Meg Ryan and Tom MMA at a high level? But speaking real quickly about like being the last week, I just watched, what was it? It was the Meg Ryan and Tom Hanks movie. You've Got Mail?

Yes, You've Got Mail. Debbie Does Dallas. Yes. No, but You've Got Mail and you see how much time has changed because I believe that was a late 90s film. Yes. You can see how much has changed. Mid-90s.

They're using AOL instant messaging. Yeah, somewhere in that range. But still, this was the very beginning where they're like, you know, they're so excited to hear the little ding or you've got mail or whatever. And you're like, man, like things are just so different today.

Like it's just, it has changed at warp speed. And we are the generation that has had to like be in lockstep with that change. And adjust. And not everybody has. You have, you're a survivor. you're still here at the highest level. What did you say was the first year you covered MMA? The first year, so the first year that I was editing a newspaper

in the Inland Empire of California, I don't know if you know that area, but it's, I wouldn't recommend going over there. Is that Interior Valley? It's like San Bernardino and Riverside where Ronda Rousey's at. Josecito. No, no, yeah. Josecito. Lopez. Lorenz Larkin. Lorenz Larkin, that's right.

Yeah, so it's like a big deserty area east of Los Angeles in Orange County. How'd you end up there? So I worked at the LA Weekly, and through knowing that and my whole experience, one of the guys from the Orange County Weekly started a paper in the Inland Empire, and he called me at one point and he was like, do you want to edit this paper? So I did. I moved out to Corona, and it was like this big. Damn.

I did it for a couple of years. It was fun. So what was that, 06-ish? That was probably in 06, yeah. And then Dan Henderson and Quentin Rampage Jackson were both in our general area. Dan Henderson was in Temecula, which was on the cusp of our coverage area. And I started writing about it for that fight. And then as it went to

UFC 82 when Dan Henderson was fighting Anderson Silva, I was like, he's our guy because we've been writing about him before. I was like, I'm going to go out to Columbus at the time and do a cover story on him and just cover this event. I hadn't really been to a UFC event, nothing like that. So that's how it happened.

I went out there and I covered it. How did we begin? And it's not just a question for you, it's a question for all of us. You came in around 06. I started covering MMA editing and writing in 2012 at a high level. You, before that, what's the biggest changes from then and now? Access, Dana White in the UFC stance. Wow.

The way the audience consumes. When you look at the whole totality of it where the sport was as a niche then and now pretty damn mainstream what do you think because I feel like you have a unique vantage point from having started a site and seen the traffic and the way the movements were going originally

there's a million different changes the media ones you've talked about really I think are quite big actually it's changed some fan behavior. Also sports betting, I think. We never talked about it. It's changing fan behavior a little bit as well. The biggest change in MMA is everything seems... I don't know how fans feel today. I can just say how it

feels relative to how it used to be. For example, MMA media used to... At my discretion, I thought this was a good idea when I was working in an editorial role was like rabid about covering TV ratings. Because, dude, you just didn't know if these promotions were going to be here in six months. You just never knew.

Which meant you didn't know if my job was going to be here in six months. Yeah, it's like, dude, and then you would see ratings start to slump and you're like, what the fuck does this mean? And, you know, so all of us were kind of figuring out in real time. But I think the biggest difference is

everything seems so much more locked in, right? Before, you kind of had to tie down whatever you wanted before the tide came in and took it all. And now, you know, partly the UFC has been so successful that, you know, certainly there's an argument about them being a monopoly. But, like, dude, there's, like, way more locked-in media coverage, way more, like, clear developed fan bases, way more locked in media coverage, way more like clear developed fan bases, way more people. Dude, when we were starting to cover it, people were like, what's that ultimate fighting cage fighting shit?

They didn't even know what the fucking sport was called. And now there is so much more cultural awareness. Two years ago, my dad's like, there's still bare knuckle, right? You can punch in the balls like that. But at least, but like the thing is, he's talking about Keith Hackney, of course.

But like, dude, it used to be, I swear to God, I would get, you know, on occasion I would do local TV in DC and someone would stop me at the grocery store and I'd be like, you're that ultimate fighting guy. And I'd be like, hacking it. Of course. It used to be, I swear to God, on occasion I would do local TV in D.C. and someone would stop me at the grocery store and be like, you're that ultimate fighting guy. And I'd be like, sort of, kind of. And now every time someone asks me what I do and I tell them, blah, blah, blah,

they're like, oh, you cover MMA. Like they know the term. There's MMA, dude. MMA was like, you know, it was on the rise, but you just didn't know if the bottom was ever going to drop out. It seems like that's not where we'll pass that. A huge fight and a collective fight for legitimacy. And then legalization in various states.

There was always this like us against the machine, the big guy type of thing. And now it's like, dude, it's all pretty settled. There's been a lot of fights that have been turning point fights. Obviously the UFC puts a lot of romantic nostalgia on Griffin Bonner one for rightful reasons of what it did for them.

I've been at ESPN since 2005. I remember a time when, you know, everyone knows, when you couldn't even get ESPN or MMA or UFC talk at all. But I remember the Rampage Chuck match. That was big. UFC 79. And it coincided with Chuck on the cover of ESPN Magazine. Sports Illustrated got involved.

It was a big deal. I think that was the first one where I felt like the mainstream people at ESPN the bosses behind the scenes were like we need to at least watch this we need to we need to at least take no too bad Chuck got beat but yeah and you know there were similar shifts when Lesnar and Rousey came around and everything's changed through the McGregor era with the vitality of all that but when you look back at the early days for either of you or Chuck start with dealing with dana what's the difference what was dana like in this in the pre-2010 and the pre-ufc 100 what was also pre-social media too yes in large part well i mentioned going to ufc 82 they had an event at whatever it's called the nationwide arena whatever that is out there they had an event

there before it was like the thursday night or wednesday night or something like that uh with all the fighters and some media and likes but it was like just kind night or the Wednesday night or something like that with all the fighters and some media. But it was like just kind of a mingling atmosphere. And Dana was the chief mingler. He was just out there kind of shaking hands, talking to everybody. I had like a five-minute conversation. I remember Vinny Magalish, who was, you know Vinny Magalish. He's still around, dude.

Yeah, yeah. He was working with Team Quest at the time, helping Dan Henderson. So he was kind of walking around with me and he introduced me to Dana White and just kind of sat there and talked to Dana for a few minutes. I mean, that's the way it was back then. There was no real big expectation. It was just very conversational

and it was still him kind of selling you on the product, which was just a complete difference of what it is today. I think that's why Dana still has such a hard-on for newspapers or guys that came from newspapers because he was out there on the front lines going up to the Kevin Aiolis and convincing them and their bosses to cover it.

I mean, obviously the tables have shifted through the years in such a big way. Do you guys miss at all that old renegade Dana? And I don't mean the one who's putting out the video against Loretta Hunt and a lot of missteps that we can all be glad were generations ago. But that Dana that was fighting to keep the brand above water, do you guys kind of miss that spirit out of him?

Kind of. I do. I will tell you this. I don't know if I miss it in the sense that I was ever a fan or not, but I'll say this for him, the guy, you know, and really you can make it, there might, I don't, I don't know the ins and outs of his medical history, but there are certainly issues with his hearing. He was, he did have a public spat with Meniere's disease, which he had to seek treatment overseas for,

which obviously, you know, we don't wish ill health on anyone. I would say this, dude, that guy, and like from like, you know, even before Tuff, but like really like 2006, maybe you can go back to five post-Tuff, all the way up till shit, like the sale of the UFC. That dude was all gas pedal as a promoter, man. I don't know if I've seen a promoter work harder than him in my life.

Like Bob Arum, obviously was with people who knows like Bob Arum, like repped Ali and shit. Like Bob Arum has put it in his, he'd been in the trenches too, but dude, like you can say that Dana overstepped. And I certainly think he did.

And there's been a lot of times I've had disagreements with whatever thing he said in the set and the other plenty, plenty, plenty. But what you cannot say is, dude, that guy was a relentless advocate for MMA in the public. Sometimes for better, for worse, but the relentlessness was unimpeachable. He promoted MMA as, and the UFC certainly, as hard as he could. Enthusiasm was infectious. It was. His enthusiasm, the way he viewed it, the way he was presenting it,

the way he cared about it was infectious. I always give him credit for that because I think that the way he talked to media and stuff, the way he sold the fights, I really believe he was telling you what he thought at the time. I think he cared to that extent. It was his baby. He wanted this thing to go across and he did everything he possibly could if there was a new piece of media

there like a new media outlet that was looking at it he would make time to go and talk to that person and give them whatever they needed you know what i mean like he would do those steps um and he very like you mentioned loretta hunt he would get very upset when he felt like people were not looking at him which which was also very strangely. Like, so Dana's personality, it kind of came through during those times, right?

Like his whole, um, the whole gamut of who he could be like, uh, I know that he got mad at like sure dog. I mean, he got mad at sure dog for running a piece on Ben Askren when there was an event.

And he was, I mean, he was black, you know, you know what I mean? Like he was doing stuff like that. That was just, it showed you the full extent of how he thought,

but also he did care. But I do kind of miss that feeling of you'd show up and it was like, you felt like he was in, everybody was kind of in on it together to get this thing into a legitimate. I mean, it was contagious. It made the fighters obviously.

And this has been a, it's weird now in light of all the fighter pay talk currently in 2022, but he made the fighters fight their freaking asses off, not just to keep their job and get to the next level, but to keep the brand afloat. It became almost a contagious sort of like say it without saying it. Maybe you still say it in a locker room to fire the guys up. You hear those speeches on the old tough episodes. But I feel like it was contagious to the level where people were like,

if I go out there and fight my ass off and match Dana's spirit and his energy, we're going to get paid tomorrow because of it. They used to put, they would have all the, after the WANs, they would have everybody just sit on the, wherever, whatever arena was. I saw this a couple of times where they would just have everybody who was going to be competing sitting in an area, and Dana would address them. Do you remember these things?

Like he would address. It was a pep talk. A pep talk saying like, he was basically saying, hey, there's performance bonuses available. Go out there and, you know, put it all on the line. Like crazy to actually think about in today's day and age. But he used to do that too. Like he would just, every single thing from monitoring the walkout songs,

you know what I mean? To just about every element he was in touch with. He was literally paying attention to. The only thing I would say... In media, too. He paid attention that way. Chuck, what do you think about this idea, though? It can be both things, which is to say, on the one hand,

can we commend Dana for, in your words, enthusiasm, relentlessness, just pushing the brand and the sport in a way that perhaps no one else even could have at the time. At the same time, some of those practices, as they got grandfathered in, that just kind of turned into an arguable monopoly over time. How much control they exert. So I appreciate the effort, but there is a larger question about some of that stuff, right? I was having a nostalgic moment.

Sorry, bro. Absolutely. And that's really with the... So context, once the context and everything starts to catch up obviously that delivers us in the state we're in now which is unless you're a shill for the UFC you're paying attention on levels that you weren't back then right you're letting a lot of things go back then because everybody was everybody was sharing in that enthusiasm to be honest and if you read if you really went back and looked at pieces pre-2010 i mean there's really not a lot of negative media i mean you know unless they unless

they're not trying to cover the sport for real they're just dipping their toe almost everything was completely positive you know what i mean so it was that kind of environment so yes looking back when i think that's why some in some ways the some ways the UFC doesn't like to be too nostalgic, too, because of those types of things, the lawsuit, the things that were going on, some of the things, you know, absorbing, strike, all that stuff. You know what I mean? Like just everything they were doing at the time. What was the first good paycheck you got in MMA?

Are you looking for dollar value? I mean, like when you're waiting like, I gotta take a whiz. I mismanaged my intake. Before you go, let's have a little conversation. You guys can keep talking. We will. Let's have a little revisiting of the events here. Before we actually went live, you got mad at me for getting up to go.

Here's the deal. Here you are mismanaging the event. 10 minutes on your phone, and then when we're finally about to go, you're like, hold on. I got to. Sort of one of those little urinals. Yeah. Can I just.

My grandfather would piss in the bottle on the drive to Florida with a full family in the car. From now on, your wearing depends. And that's the end of this conversation. Yes. Go pee. This couch is getting warm. You willed a beast. Milk Boy Seltzer over here.

He runs through me quick. He is actually. I bet it does. First big paycheck. Well, I would say that runs through me quick. I bet it does. First big paycheck? Well, I would say that like the fight. When I say big paycheck, the first thing where you make some amount of money where it was worth it, you're worth your while.

And this was important because I feel like a lot of people to this day still accept almost no pay just to be able to cover the sport, even as a part-time hobby. So many people do this. I didn't want to do that. But the jobs I was doing early on in the sport uh were like i did a brock lesnar piece for fight magazine uh 2008 i went out to

alexandria virginia alexandria minnesota where he was living at the time and did this piece on him wrote the piece and you bet him and everything yeah i mean one of the rare times where i was living at the time and did this piece on him, wrote the piece and everything. Yeah. I mean, one of the rare times where I was like, I mean, he doesn't really grant that sort of thing. So it was like one of these big moments, but it was the,

one of the first things I did that you're really on site and you're doing a piece like that. And, uh, they really liked that. They paid pretty well. Like considering it was a fight, very specific magazine,

a lot of national magazines pay, you know, a couple of dollars per word. They were paying something like $1.50 per word. It was like, you know, very comparative to like the, you know what I mean? Like the bigger magazines that were out there. I wrote for Blender magazine. I've had Bylines of Rolling Stone. It was better than all of that, you know, like. So that was probably the first time I was like, you know,

maybe there is a dollar in this racket, you know, maybe there is. And so how long did you write at magazines before you ended up, I guess, I guess I, I, we met, I want to say, did we meet at the GSP Shields fight? Like, did we formally introduce ourselves? Like you introduced yourself to me, I believe. At UFC, and that was like 2011 and something like that. UFC 129. That might be right.

You were already, well, I don't know. I didn't go to many shows at that time. We probably met on the set of MMA Beat. Really, right? No, we met at the fight. Really? You introduced yourself to me one time. We were like a post-fight presser or something like that.

Okay. That's, I mean, I don't remember the MMA Beats full thing, but that sounds about right. It was in that period. Yeah, I think so. But, you know, at that point, right. It was in that period. Yeah, I think so. But, you know, at that point, I was already working at ESPN. So, from 2010,

so after I was doing the Fight Magazine covers, I think I did like 12 of them. Like, I did a bunch. So I was flying out to Vegas to talk to Joseph Benavidez. You know, guys like this that were players at the time. Was that pre-Megan? No, but it was secret Megan, right? Did you get an early feel at it? Nobody knew. Nobody was really

talking about it. Did you think they would last back then, Chuck? No, come on. I didn't think. No, I didn't really know. I didn't care. Glad you're here, Brian. Glad you're here. I love the old days. And then I started ESPN and then it took off from there because at that point, you're writing

for ESPN and you're doing whatever. We had a dream team going. So who was the dream team? Okay, the lead editor was Darius Ortiz. Remember him? I was the backup editor. Your writing team was Brett Okamoto, Josh Gross, Chad Dunnis, and Chuck Mendenhall. That's right.

Damn. That's a staff. That's a staff right there. We had Franklin O'Neal. We had Franklin McNeil who was contributing. You had John Anik on MMA Live with Rashad and with Pat Miletic. And this is an era when they didn't give a fuck about it, man. They didn't.

I mean, we had to fight for every scrap, you know, like that type of thing. You mean like for folks who may not know, like to get an article on the front page of the host site. So ESPN.com would be hard to do. Like they're going to be stingy with that real estate. UFC 134 in Brazil, which ESPN was good enough to send me out for. I did a bunch of stuff there. And I remember on fight night going on there.

And it was a big deal if you saw it on the front page of ESPN.com. And it was. And I was like. And now you go and it's like plastered on Saturday. But at that moment in time, I saw my bio and I saw all that. I was like, whoa, I've made it. And that was like whatever year that was.

Listen, there's all kinds of good and bad parts to the ESPN embrace of UFC, but it's a fucking full embrace. Well, boxing too. I mean, it wasn't that ESPN didn't always have Friday night fights

and occasionally they dip in and get a good boxing match at championship level. But I left ESPN in 2017, then UFC comes a year and a half later, top ranked boxing, now they're doing pay-per-views we were there at a time when you're right they weren't taking notice, they didn't

really care, they didn't really trust that there would be traffic there, that the audience would want that that's not specific to ESPN, that's basically everywhere, that's basically everywhere it just happens to be wherever I'm at at the time yeah, well that's why you're a survivor ESPN, athletic what were some of the things you got to do at ESPN?

Similar kinds of piece? Did you do anything? I mean, obviously, for folks who may not know, there's always some grunt work involved. But like the non-grunt stuff. Do you remember a cat named Josh? No, what was his name? Josh Rosen, maybe?

He did a blog every day. Jake Rosen. Jake Rosen did a blog. Jake Rosen was also a, not Dana White's favorite guy. Oh, no, no, no. But he was, I'll see. Okay, so he should get a lot.

He should get a lot. He came over from Sherdog. He should get a lot of credit because I felt like he was the one guy who was not afraid to make fun of the product. Not at all.

He was a great writer. And he would write a 500 word blog every single day. And he was like, I mean, it was on point. And I remember seeing it. He was doing that. And when I came into ESPN,

I was like, I'm going to do the exact same thing. Like I was going to do exactly what he was doing and so that's what i did and he kind of disappeared because i guess they were just kind of doing like a partnership with the sure dog at the time but once we they had actual writers on their own payroll i guess i kind of replaced him he still showed up like we did like the hot button debates and stuff like that he would still show up i don't think he had a big interest in continuing at some point. But basically I tried to just take the baton, what he was doing and do it exactly like that.

So I was, I was hammering columns, opinion things just as much as I possibly could. I was writing, you know, three things a day. Sometimes you were just like constantly just hammering that out. But that,

the most fun I've ever had was in those early days at ESPN. Cause it was just like, they weren't over monitoringmonitoring it yet. So they were sort of letting you just kind of like. But they put a little money into it. They tried at least. They put the money into it. I went to a ton of events. It was the first time I started really traveling with the UFC

and going to a lot of events and all that stuff and getting to know everybody. So during that boom, like I guess it's my own boom period, but it kind of coincides honestly with the boom period of MMA. It really does. Yeah, that was, I mean, it was great. I mean, the whole thing. We mean it when we say you got an incredible Q rating.

You fill in on our show. People are like, man, I just love Chuck. Can't they find more roles for him on MK? Can't they just mix him in there more? Why? Just need you guys to be on vacation. Why have you lasted so long? Why do the people love them some Chuck Mendenhall?

Put it into real words i don't know but i i tell you it hasn't always felt like they love me that much i'll tell you man there's been a ton of times where i've taken a lot of heat but i would say overall over the course of time now this this could be a criticism too like maybe people don't hate you enough you know um but over the course of time i don't know like. Like I just, I think I've somehow connected because of the writing aspect. I think I was the one guy who was, like you mentioned, Ben Folkster,

a couple of other people who were hammering opinion type pieces and stuff, but I was pretty consistent with it for 10 years. Like just doing that, I think they got used to it. I never came at it from a mean spirited or vindictive place. I tried to keep it, and I was not afraid to write very scathing columns,

but I think that I always tried to keep it relatively, look at this, relatively benevolent. You know, like where you're trying to be, not uplifting, but just you're not trying to be a negative in the space. Not trying to be cruel. Not trying to be cruel. And actually having that empathy and things. And those things really are nuanced things over the course of time. There are a lot of people who write about the hype of games before the fights before they happen,

but there's very few people writing empathetically on Sunday morning about what just happened to this guy who lost or whatever, you know? Um, I did that, you know, and I, but I was very conscious of it. Like they were very, you know, you, I would put a lot of thought into what's the real thing I should be covering here, not just jumping on some kind of, you know, fiery topic and just hammering somebody or whatever. I didn't really do that. I mean, that's cool. I would like to think that that's that part of it. Did you ever get head like that from a co-host before?

Okay, that's really what I want to know, okay? No names here, but maybe. God, Luke could not be more disinterested in this life and this job and this show. I mean, it's great. I would say more your joke. Hey, can I get more of that Nelk Boys hard dad seltzer? I mean, what do we got going on? Wait, is it really Nelk Boys?

Bartender? Yeah. Wait, who is your last one? Is it their brand? I'm drinking it because I want to get that bag, baby. The one that Dana gave them. If they didn't cash that yet. You're trying to have seltzer to get 250K large?

Yep. I want to connect with a younger demographic. Here we go. All right. Here we go. Hey, could you walk in more awkwardly? What are you coming to do? Drug us?

You just bring that thing in front of you? Thank you. What the hell was that? You got more beer down here on the ground. All right. Chuck. Yes, sir. Favorite things you've written.

Any stand out? Oh, man. This is great. See, I think all shows should be about me and what I've done. Yeah, it's fun, right? this is great see i think i think all shows should be about me and like what yeah it's fun right this is great how does chicky wait no sorry keep going here it goes wait hold on to that one dc bc dc um the the best thing um my favorite thing ah there's so many columns that i really like but then there's sometimes you write a column that you think you're you know I couldn't have been better.

You felt like people didn't read it, you know? It would just fall flat. And there's a couple times where you wrote something where you thought it was just okay, and everybody loved it, you know? It's got to be the strange root piece, right? But the strange, if you're talking about the longer form pieces. That one was a grand slam. That was the one.

Didn't you go to Vancouver and try? So tell the people the story. What is this? Tell the story. Well, do you like the full story? Because, I mean, honestly. So season one, there's a guy named Ultimate Fighter. That's the story I'm talking about.

You found him. So there's one guy. Season one being what it is, right? You've got to put it in the context. Season one was the one that I think most people have paid attention to. If you're following the sport, you've paid attention to Tuff, the original Tuff because of the Bonner, Griffin, all that stuff that played out and it being this big moment for the ufc in the finale all that stuff but the one forgotten

figure in this weird way who's not totally forgotten because people remembered his name was the strange brew uh jason thacker right so he was this guy who never belonged on that show it almost felt like he was being thrown to the wolves and uh this also a time in MMA. Sorry to interrupt you. I'll make a brief. He's used to it. He's been on the show before. You're used to me trampling all of your good ideas with my bullshit. But the long story short, for people who may not have seen season one or understand the context, season one

of MMA are tough. Yes, there's a last pick every time, right? Every season. But you understand, this was at a time when, yeah, the guys who were good were really good. There was a lot of fringe players in the sport at the time people who now would have been weeded out much earlier in the process so the dude was like he was i cannot explain to you how much he was out of his element he was way out of his element even if physically he didn't look like he belonged there the coaches kind of picked on him in the season uh you know chris lieben spritzed in his

bed you know what i mean they he was just kind of the butt of all jokes and i think that coming out of it because we had never heard from him again i mean literally he had no um there was no trace of him that you could find in like social media or anything like that that i was like what happened to this guy so for a year like not not for years i would say for a good year and a half though i was asking around like where is he where is anybody talk to him talking to old school guys greg savage guys who were around back in the day and be like hey man have you do you know anything about him thomas gerbaisy the thomas rios thomas rios i don't know if i asked him he wouldn't have been much good in that but uh i was uh i was asking a lot of these guys that's another negative uh voice that was

actually dude that guy used to be I forgot all about that guy. If you're Thomas Rios, if you're watching this, I used to read your shit. You were great. You were edgy as shit. What happened to that guy? Anyway, I... I'll tell you all about it. Actually, I kind of remember now.

Somebody just ripped one in the back. So apparently what's happening is they're staging a podcast behind us while we record this podcast. It's a podcast on noisily moving furniture. Our love is like water. Keep going, keep going. He couldn't be found. And I kept talking about this because I was like, this is probably, I was able to basically make a gut decision.

Like I can guarantee you he's out of the spotlight on purpose because he was humiliated by what happened to him on the show. But you know, you're pitching, you're pitching, you want to do this feature on a guy that is a very marginal figure in the sport, even though you know it's going to be a good story. It's the white whale. Right, and nobody had, people had tried to get him before,

even for reunion stuff, and they couldn't get him. So I did this whole thing where I had to trace him down and track him down. I tried a million different avenues, and finally, I'm sort of embarrassed that this is

because it shows the level of journalism I'm dealing with. I called Nevada. I think it was Nevada. And I called or was it? No, it was Nevada. I called Nevada and I just asked them whatever their... You called the state of Nevada? Yeah, whatever. And I asked them

I forget exactly how I found them, but they gave me a number that I hadn't had yet. and i called this number and he answered and i was like what the hell and then it became this process of convincing him to let me come visit tell him hey man i'm gonna tell your story in a truthful way and that went on for a couple of months it was like the i've never been involved in a piece that required that much kind of legwork just to get it rolling and then i had to talk to guys to do the full context of the story craig pelesian is that his name like the dude the original uh i think yeah like uh and guys like that to get the full story of how they viewed it how they were kind of seeing it and then once i went out there and i wasn't sure if he would uh

once he agreed to it which took some convincing i there, found him. He's like an hour out of Vancouver in this very remote little area and all that. And it was I was able to get him. I was so afraid he wouldn't show up. He looked like Roy Nelson. Like he had a big beard and it turned out to be exactly what I feared. You know, the guy's life had been severely affected by

tough. He did not seem to miss MMA at all not miss it but scarred like where he's telling stories about being bullied people wanting to pick fights with him in bars afterwards and things so he just retreated

into his own little wilderness and lived basically with his family on a little compound and he just had no reason to want to come out. And so this... That's how Unabomber's began. Very similar. I mean, this is how it all came up.

And so I told that story and I tried to put the balance in it from the other side of why they did it. Dude, you wrote the shit out of it. You wrote the absolute shit out of it. What did he say about it? About the piece? Mm-hmm.

He was grateful for the piece. And somebody started a GoFundMe for him because he was, I mean, they were not thriving where they were, you know? And it raised, I don't know, five figures. It was like in the five figures, and he sent me a note one time. One time he sent me a note on email

that it was just basically like, thank you very much. I appreciate what you've done. And I asked him, would you just send a post, some kind of video to say what you think? Because I knew this would be the last time we'd hear from him. He did that.

He posted a video that everybody posted around saying thank you in his little barn where he has a heavy bag and all this stuff. And then that was it. I don't think anybody's heard from him again since, man. Just the weirdest thing ever, man. You should take that spirit and start tracking down missing people, all right? I thought about others. Wayne Weems, whatever happened to Wayne Weems?

I mean... No, but I mean, there probably are... Got that name, Jesus. You could... I'm sure you could go down. But see, this one was unique because it was a tough one, right?

It was a tough one. It's the white whale story, man. It's the white whale story. So I was like, I needed to do that one. Dude, how many stories is like, you know, oh, I got an exclusive interview

with so-and-so. Yeah, for this media cycle. The next media cycle, someone else will get the exclusive or whatever the fuck. Did you ever find Just Bleed guy? Was that you? Who found him? No, it wasn't me. Somebody found him. Oh, the dude who was like the original, like, you know. Well, he did some time.

The original. It was you as a fan, basically. If it was close enough. Same spirit. Same spirit, certainly. Thomas Rios. Thomas Rios, wow. Yeah, I have a story about that enough. Same spirit. Same spirit, certainly. That's your biggest show. Thomas Rios. Wow. Yeah, I have a story about that boy. Wow. Chuck, speaking of R. Kelly's favorite 90s song,

All over you, all over me. Okay, he just went to jail. Chuck, what would you say? Because I've always said the most 90s song. You guys are much more strict with your favorite. Anyway, go ahead. It's Semi-Charmed Life by Third Eye Bun. It's just when you hear that, it's the most 90s pop rock.

Change the radio station. What is the defining 90s song for your mind? Oh, my God. For your ears, for your soul. Well, you thought because there's different, there's really different eras. Of course. Because if you're talking about the Nirvana stuff,

I mean, that's. There is a split in early and late 90s. Because once you get to the mid-90s, there was a lot of vanilla, which you enjoy. Well, we had real grunge in the early to mid-90s. Then that obviously became pop grunge once they found money in it. But unfortunately, then that became the Woodstock 99, boy bands, like Nu Metal, all that bullshit, man. So in between, there were a few hits or a few jams. I mean if if machine

head by bush was on right now i'd be i'd be like i mean there's so many but they were all different they felt like because i guess it was the last great time for um radio you know a monoculture where everybody's listening to the radio when we grew up i told people this like i know the guy who was the local morning dj on your rock station i know that dude was a fucking celebrity in town yeah so but it felt like there were many eras within one one decade but maybe filter uh hey man nice shot hey man nice shot that is a hell of a track that's a deep dive right there is it i wish i would have yeah it was a great one wasn't that the lead singer's song to kurt cobain isn't that right is that what it was i don't backstory. Okay, so let me just preface that by saying I read it on the internet. I cannot vouch for its veracity.

I felt like it was about some politician or something, but I don't remember the story, to be honest. You're the guy. You're like the resident 90s expert. I thought you would go a little more mainstream for your, like, song of the 90s that defines the 90s, that when I hear it, I think about the 90s. Okay, so it defines it?

It's semi-charmed life, okay? Is it? Maybe. It really is or alive i mean there's a few in this category okay yeah fluke has and it looks like uh sepultura i guess uh you say that like you're shitting on a band rape me by by uh no so back at the time i was probably listening to the same kind of bullshit rock that bc was to be candid with a little on the heavier side for sure because i definitely like I liked Slayer in high school.

I liked Metallica in high school. But I didn't, the shit I'm into, yes. I mean, Pretty Hate Machine, it got a lot of people's attention

beyond that. Yeah, but I was also like listening to Helmet and then eventually Pantera and shit like that. So I'm a little, a little bit.

You're a little bit on the outskirts of the mainstream radio. Yeah, a little bit. That's all right. So was I. I saw,

my first concert was Collective Soul. I mean, I'm a bitch. Oh, that's so lame, a little bit. That's all right. So was I. I saw my first concert was Collective Soul. I mean, I'm a bitch. Oh, that's so lame. I love that. You like live. I've seen live a bunch of times, you know? Yeah.

They got to pop in the back. Yeah, yeah. What a loser I am. Wow. Sorry about that. Chuck, what's the... Look, I don't care if you think this is a bullshit question because it gets me going inside.

All right. Let's see. Where were you pointing it wasn't his drink i'll tell you that much what's the best what's the best fight you've ever seen in person for me we already know we already know it's out of sunny gastelum we already fucking know the answer chuck what's your answer you had to be in the arena well there's a couple of them i was at the pat berry uh yes i was at the fight Berry in Pittsburgh. Yes, I was at the fight. Why the hell were you in Pittsburgh?

Damn. Because ESPN, they used to do all that stuff. Wait, was that the Nate Marquardt show? Yeah, was it like Charlie Brenneman had to step up or something like that? It was the TRT era. Yeah, Marquardt was Rick Story, maybe.

What I remember the most is that fight. And Chris Birdman Anderson was partying with us with the Acre Shots and all that stuff. Oh, wow. You know Chris Birdman. He was at the fights. Dude, what the fuck are they laughing at? They're laughing at our content. We're popping the back.

Dude, the peanut gallery back there. How many Delta 8s are they on? I'm on an elevator in Pittsburgh. First of all, the Pittsburgh one really stands out because there was a furry. Okay, the president of the United States has stayed in our hotel. Jesus, dude, this story is so MMA. The president of the United States

furries in MMA Pittsburgh. I actually wrote about this. I'd have to find the piece. But the president of the United States had just left and then there was a furry convention right on the heels of that. What's a furry convention? It's people who dress up like teddy bears. It's people who dress up like...

It's people who cosplay as like teddy bears and they fuck each other that way and shit. Oh my God, that's so weird. That's so weird, right? So there's one of these and then the UFC...

I mean, by the way, that's the least scientific credible answer, but that's all you really need to know about it. It's like The Shining at the end with a teddy bear, like whatever.

But anyways, and then the UFC was there on top of this. So it was like, that's their fighter hotel and all this. And then, so all this is going on, you're seeing all this crazy things within, you know,

within the hotel itself. And then I'm on the elevator, I'm wearing a Colorado Rockies hat and there's this tall dude. And he's like, are you from Colorado? And I'm like, originally, you know,

he's like, and he just kind of looks at me and I'm like, I'm sitting there. He's like six, 10, you know, that's his way of saying, do you have drugs? I was looking at him and I'm like, no way., he's like, and he just kind of looks at me and I'm like, I'm sitting there. He's like 6'10". That's his way of saying, do you have drugs? I was looking at him and I'm like, no way.

And he's like, he just shook his head like he expected me to like figure out who he was. And then we got off the elevator. It was Chris Birdman Anderson. And we go to the bar. That's how we started this. And he's buying, you know, a Jager bombs and all this stuff. It was great. I was, we were hanging out with him all night at that.

He sounds like a great dude. He was an awesome guy, man. Dude, you always have a way, and maybe that's just your personality, of hanging out with him all night at that. He sounds like a great dude. He was an awesome guy, man. Dude, you always have a way and maybe that's just your personality of hanging out with cool people. Like you bro out with Glover Teixeira at the local bar. This is true. Cool people love hanging out with Chuck Mendes.

Our guy from Corey Graves from WWE was lived in your neighborhood. He's your boy too, right? These cats lived in my town. They're right there in my town, so it's easy. Maybe Chuck's got really good weed. This is possible. He's from Colorado.

We haven't talked about it at all. We talked about ESPN. We should talk a little bit about we worked together briefly. Yeah, yeah. For a few years, right? Yeah, actually, Chuck's the reason why you and I are married right now. That might be true. That actually might be true.

You were the matchmaker, Chuck. Yeah? I guess that's true. I remember this. Actually, might be true. That actually might be true. You were the matchmaker, Chuck. Yeah? I guess that's true. I remember something to that. Actually, that is true. We were looking for MMA beat. Remember, we were looking for MMA beat people on the East Coast, and I said, have you checked in with Brian Campbell?

What was Luke's reaction? What was it? He's like, Brian, what? You know, he didn't know what that was. No, I knew who you were. I didn't know you by name. I didn't know you by name because we had met previously. Oh, really? You didn't know? I forgot about that. Dude, you know me with names. I mean, it took me a while to get used to your name.

Let's be fair. Wow, okay, okay. But no. So I've authored this whole thing. But then BC came on, and of course, the rest is history. But we had some good, listen, we all have our differences, but we had some good times there. Oh, yeah, man.

Chuck, tell me about what it was like to be on the real A-team. The real A-team? The original MMA beat A-team. So you, me, Ariel, and then the old wags for the original mma beat a team so you me ariel and then the old wags i mean it's kind of like you're the beatles of mma and i'm joking but shut your okay okay okay but like that was that was a pretty good time to be alive in the mma media it was all right um i thought that that crew i know you were talking about espn's crew but i thought that that particular crew was about as good as it gets

because everybody had their lane, essentially. Wackenheim was the drug lane. Well, no, I just, yes, yes, yes. So Jeff kind of entering the space as that guy. But, like, I'm talking about the MMA fighting crew in general because you had Ariel and you who are, you know, you guys are doing what you do and you're still doing it and people are paying attention to that.

But you had, you know, Mark Romani was there and Sean El Shadi and Esther Lin is the best, you know, you guys are doing what you do and you're still doing it and people are paying attention to that. But you had, you know, Mark Romani was there and Sean El Shadi and Esther Lin is the best, you know, photographer. You had everything like that. So it was kind of like an extension of that, right? Like to do the MMA beat. Brian Tucker, shout out. So yeah, everybody was pretty good.

But the MMA beat was, it was like kind of like, I felt like it was, it hit all the spots because we were all very different. You know what I mean? I felt like it was cool to be on that. It was kind of like, I felt like it hit all the spots because we were all very different. You know what I mean? I felt like it was cool to be on that. It was fun. The original idea was kind of to be like the sports reporters or something like that.

And, I mean, people still ask me about that all the time. I'm sure you get it too. People ask, when are you guys going to bring back the MMA beat? So it's one of those things. But it was fun. Well, the original idea was for it to be classy under the Ariel flag. But by episode 200, when they dropped a little BC on that, the landscape was different.

The flavor was different. But like from Brian Tucker, was he trying to tone you down? There was a time I went too far. I may have gone too far for Vox. I could see that 100%. Sorry, Vox. I may have gone too far. In fairness, it was probably deserved.

But the truth of that show is I was Ariel's brainchild. And more to the point, we talk about what's different. Or Chia Petas. I never got that straight. I was Ariel's brainchild, and more to the point, we talk about what's different. Or Chia Petta's. I never got that straight. I was on episode one. I kind of thought Ariel was Ariel more. I mean, I don't know for certain. I think he was the one who wanted to be like the sports reporter. But this is my point. Ariel obviously has

always been a big fan of regular sports media. He's a fan of other sports, so he understands what that sort of looks like. And at the time, major sports entities, they kind of had MMA reporters and stuff, but they weren't doing that kind of show. And so it was almost like, we talk about what's different.

At the time, it was a little bit of a, you know, you're lucky to do a project like that, but it's also one of necessity, right? Yes. There was a space for it. I think that people really dug it. To this day, there are people like Lorenzo Fertitta is one of the people who's talked to me about the MMA beat.

The guy would watch it during his walk, like when he was working out and things like that. Nate Diaz, who I saw in Vegas last month, same thing. He knew a lot of the shows about MMA beat. He was naming episodes. He had it on his phone. He was finding episodes on his phone. No, seriously.

You hold that when you're at that level and you make a show like that, but to actually see it permeate where people in the business are like, I got to hear what these guys are saying. That was what was fun. I felt like our audience was like that. Everybody was paying attention to it. You know what I mean?

So that was cool. Yeah. I had a lot of fun too. BZ, when did you come on? What episode? Episode 200. Flat 200? Flat 200.

Remember I made the Brock Lesnar joke off the start and people thought I was some chirping idiot. No, about how he came to raise the rent on UFC 200. He came back for it so I did the same one. That's hilarious. And right off the start you're like, you're not that important BC, I'm sorry. Let's talk about some lessons you've learned in the game. What have you learned about MMA and the way

in which you've seen it over the course of its life? Stay the hell out. Just kidding. What have I learned about it? do you know what do you understand about mma now that like i don't know that you maybe you didn't when you first got well i think just like i don't know how you guys got in but i i romanticized it so much you realize that as time goes on like how much you were looking at like this guy's gonna fight him and like you just you wanted you saw what you uh what wanted to see within the sport, and you kind of went with that through your,

we talked about this, I think, on Morning Combat, through your five years of enthusiastic diehard moments. You know what I mean? I did that. I went through that period of just the idea of matchmaking, this guy against this guy. I was like, oh, my God, can you imagine? I'm not out of that period.

I'm not out of it either entirely. I think it's good to stay in there. We do this a lot. There's still plenty of matchups where I'm like, oh, God, can you imagine? I'm not out of that period. I'm not out of it either entirely. I think it's good to stay in there. Like we do this a lot. I still, there's still plenty of matchups where I'm like, oh man, that's really good. But I'm not like, I'm not like I was at that point, you know? But I would say like, you know, it's just like anything. It's like with boxing, you know, back in the day and all this stuff, like you just learn, once you start to see how the sausage is made obviously you lose some enthusiasm yeah you

do you're certainly doing this conversation uh speaking of are you going to get any uh christmas cards out to joe silva this year or no you got a great joe silva story which oh god yeah yeah you're talking about the foxwood thing yeah that guy cussed you motherfucking out. He did. Okay? He did. I've told you this before, though. Oh, yeah. I mean, in a nutshell, I wrote a piece. I think it was UFC 177 where Joe Soto was fighting in the main event of a pay-per-view.

Against TJ. And I said, I made some remark because it's Joe Soto. I was like, it doesn't matter how the fight plays out because everything plays out in prospect. It doesn't matter what happens. I said, was it TJ? TJ Dillashaw could show up and shoot red beams out of his eyes and disintegrate Joe Soto. And people would be like, well, it's Joe freaking Soto. Who cares?

You know, like blah, blah, blah. I made this column. That was just kind of a humor thing. And a lot of the, there's a lot of levity in those columns back then. And they took umbrage to this and called me back. So instead of doing a press conference dana called me backstage and they uh dressed me down for about half an hour at foxwood so just basically two of them what was the nature of their complaint that you were um you know just that i was for

first of all like just kind of not speaking at a turn essentially not like seeing the big picture sort of thing focusing in not you know what i mean like just seeing the big picture sort of thing focusing in not you know what i mean like just kind of like that sort of thing and then you know shitting on my plate type thing will you guys make your money at this why would you want to shit on this you know they burn your credential in front of you and then no no no there was none of that to be honest it was it started very severe and it was mostly joe silva who was actually like really doing the uh pacing and um you know, veins popping. Dana was kind of the cooler presence of the two, which was pretty funny.

But honestly, it kind of ended, you know, in a nice way. It wasn't like they were really pissed at me when I walked out the door. Well, look, I'm not here to say anything about Joe Silva. He's a Hall of Famer for a reason, and he should be considered that. But when he retired, I love that the first eulogy from everybody was, that guy's a motherfucker, man. Which means in the end, like how we talk about Dana historically. He had to be.

He had to be to win to that success. Dana included. He had to be. But, dude, he dominated that job and knew exactly what he was doing. And he wasn't afraid. Like, you think about that job and people are like, oh, they glamorized the matchmaking aspect. But you're also the guy that cuts everybody.

You're the guy who's, you know, talking. You're the guy who has to tell know, talking. You're the guy who has to tell your star that he's not worth the money he thinks he deserves. It was like 75-25 in terms of what you wouldn't want

to be dealing with towards, you know, and then the matchmaking being the fun part of that job, you know? Yeah, no doubt about it. Did you ever get an angry phone call

or did you ever get any issue? Outside of that four-minute hit job video post-Taichi Palace, I started. Wait, wait, what? I didn't even get

an IMDB entry for that. Do you remember when Dana made the defiant video about how all the media was overhyping COVID? Doubting him during COVID. Doubting their capacity. But they pulled all the comments from the Taichi Palace. That's right, which they have since conspicuously deleted. Outside of that, I have stayed out of...

Look, dude, Dana used to come to ESPN once a year before the ESPN, long before, 2012, 13, sit down with us on the staff for like an hour and shoot the shit. We loved Dana back then. Except he wouldn't talk to Josh Gross. No, he wouldn't. No, he wouldn't, unfortunately. And so just one gloomy lesson.

What do you say to young people who want to get involved in media, who potentially want to write or anything else? I feel like all of my negative experience hasn't really been from the coverage itself. It's from the outlets themselves. Like it's more from the places I'm working. Oh, shit.

Chuck out here just... But honestly, man, I mean... Chino XL, fuck you. To be honest, I mean, like that's kind of the game like I feel like the game itself if you're rolling with the punches no pun intended but if you're rolling the punches the fight game you're gonna be fine but it's really your outlet itself like are they allowing you to be creative and be who you want to be you know what I mean like are they allowing

you to do what you can do and you know your talents are that's really what it comes down to my biggest gripes would be more in that realm than actually what the sport has delivered or how it's turned or anything like that. Yeah. Yeah. I'm surprised to hear that a little bit. Yeah. Not that you would be at odds

with other people's creative vision, especially when they have power, but that the industry itself, you've had some pretty cool experiences though. Cool experiences and, you know, I mean, if I had it my way, I would have been a DSP. I would have just stayed a DSP the whole time. Like, you would have just started there,

and that's where you'd still be, but that's not how the industry works. And then, you know, the way that they kind of shut that down before they brought it back was, you know, that was a hard thing, you know. There was things that boxed me. You know what I mean? We've talked about a lot of this.

Shit's happened, okay? Yes, yeah. Shit's creek got full, all right? That's how we went full circle know what I mean? We've talked about a lot of this. Shit's happened, okay? Yes, yeah. Shit's creek got full. That's how we go full circle. Because you mentioned I'm a survivor. And I want to go full circle. How popular you are in the sport does kind of matter, but what really matters is how long you can stick around. That's the hardest thing to do.

So Chuck, I want to indulge your fan one more time before Luke pulls the plug on this. I asked your favorite fight. I want to ask you what fight were you the most hyped ever for leading up to it? I'm going to quickly give you my answer to frame it. The second Silva-Sanen, because of how the first one went,

for whatever reason, I was at a 100 out of 100, fully erect, ready to watch this fight, and then it sucked. Lesnar-Carwin. Dong is big. Lesnar-Carwin was like Andre the Giant versus Hulk Hogan.

I was so in on every level. What was the one fight where you're like, this is my job, but the fan in me can't stand up at the moment, okay? Looks like I hate this shit. Well, actually, that one would you really, that filibuster about your penis complex is really quite something.

Go ahead. I mean, there are a bunch, but I would say that actually UFC 117 because of the way Chael so the first fight with Chael and Silva because of the way he presented it Chael Son the way he'd sold that fight he was poking the bear nobody has ever gone against Anderson Silva

and I knew he was going to unapologetically wrestle he was going to do the thing that he does well and I was like very intrigued as to how that would play out and it played out epically I would say that that one I was way into and including the rematch. So I put that like as 1A and 1B like in that category.

I mean, you know, the McGregor Habib one only in the sense of like... If it's not in your top three, you weren't alive during it. And then the Cormier Jones one because you're talking about at that time, man, it was so big. It just felt like you couldn't have guys with... They were the two best at the time that you could actually pair and big. It just felt like you couldn't have guys with, they were the two best at the time that you could actually pair,

and they did that. I think you got to put McGregor-Aldo in that, McGregor-DS2 in that, the build-up to that. Luke, did anything else? I mean, people want to hear you actually enjoy your job. Is there any other fights? I love my job. It's like, I'm trying to think of my, like, the biggest ones. We've been, like, sort of a partner.

Were you, as a fan, you're like, I just fucking need to see this fight. I just need to see what it looks like. I will tell you, I really loved the build to UFC 100. I really loved the build to 100. What was the one fight you were most jammed on, though? Brock Lesnar. Brock Lesnar. I had slowly been turned over time because, again,

I've told this a million times, but that was the first time when I saw his traffic delivering on the site. I was like, ooh, you can do this for a living. All you care about is traffic. That's always the debate between us. I want it to resonate. This guy's just like leaving all the lights on and doesn't know, who pays the power bill?

Fuck this, turn the blender on. I just want to hear some white noise. Luke, I want our viewers to feel something and be like, no one else feels like that. No one else bangs me like these two guys do. God damn it. We just had a gang bang. UFC 100 was awesome, though.

Good transition. Good transition. Dana never did. Never did jump off the Mandalay Bay, by the way. He never did. All right. Let's end on this. This is something you mentioned at the beginning when we talked about the changing role of

the writer and the opinion writer, specifically in MMA. You mentioned it comes from reading. Why don't you give people some reading recommendations? That's the last question. Why don't you at least ask them historically which members of the women's strawweight division, right? I mean, come on. Okay, we don't have to make it the last one.

Fine. We've already plugged this. Yeah, we have. That's right. Okay, first of all, I don't... I didn't know reading was lame. Okay. That's new.

Remember when you had Fedor? You're like, yo, Fedado, tell me about Russian literature. Dude, this is like the old Bill Hicks joke. What you reading for? No, not what am I reading. What am I reading for? I read for a lot of reasons. Give me some recommendations.

Man, The Sweet Science by A.J. Lieberman. I don't think that's the first thing anybody should read. I just, I feel like it not only informs you of boxing's past, but it just, it carries. It classes up the sport, man. It classes up the sport, man. It classes up the sport, but also just carries the vibe of the fight game. It's everything you'd want to know about the fight game. Yeah, right. Like, I would say that one.

Four Kings by George Kimball. Come on, put it there. Four Kings. You know, I've never read that. I've never read that one. Oh, it's great. Is it good? It is so great.

Oh, well, no, I'll read that one. Gosh, man. The Joyce Carolos, and I don't remember. Unboxing, I think it was. Unboxing, I think it was just that, right? Like, it just unboxed. It was very good. I mean mean it's just because it's a whole different perspective it points

out a lot of good stuff Mark Cram the ghost of Manila is very good I mean these are just kind of the the old school boxing ones Eisenberg what's that he did one too I'm horrible with the titles actually when Jerry Eisenberg yeah yeah yeah yeah he did one

about kind of like, he kind of connects. The history of heavyweights. Yeah, yeah, I read that one. It's really good. Because boxing is older, you get a little bit more of those like deep features. See, that's what I still think. You should be that for MMA. Dude, you should write who he was. You should write not a book,

the book. Chuck, you should write the book. Alright, I'll do it. I'd love to actually. I really would love to do that at the book. I'd love to, actually. I really would love to do that at some point. I'm thinking about ghostwriting. You're finally to the point. You've got to kind of marinate in the sauce. We've been in this sport now, I've probably been

in what, 15, 16 years? You're getting to a point now where you could actually do something like that, and it would be wise, because you've been around it that way. I'd like to ghost write Cheyenne Felismas' autobiography. Yeah. That'd be good.

I'll ghost write that whip. You know what I mean? Yeah. Oh my fucking... Wow. Aren't you glad you stayed up for this? Yeah. Oh, Jesus.

Remember when you used to join the action and drink margaritas and have fun? Now your organs are failing. Yes. Now I'm just shitting blood every two hours. It's great. Oh, yeah. All right.

On that note, Chuck. Do my yellow teeth mesh well with this couch? I mean, let's be fair, right? I hope I've answered all of your questions. Chuck, welcome to the MK Couch. Yes, thank you. We are delighted to have you. Hey, man.

We will, as you know, we'll have you back very soon. And if people want to check out your stuff. You're like, we're filming something in five minutes, so we'll have you back right away. If people want to check out your stuff, just very quickly, how can they find you? Well, they can find me on Twitter, at Chuck Mendenhall. I don't even know what my Instagram is.

TheMyth.com, bro. TheMyth.com. TheMyth.com is where I do some writing. M-I-T-H. Yeah, you can purchase the hats there. Thank you for the plug again. I can't believe we didn't even get into the Boston Scally caps. We didn't even get into that. Okay, we should do a bonus clip very quickly. Yeah. When did you start wearing those?

When did you get old, Chuck? Yeah, I got old very early. No, I was, I don't know, to be honest, man. I think actually it just kind of started off back in like 2010-ish maybe. Nobody wore these caps. You know what I mean? Nobody really wore them. But I just wore one once and then people, I don't know. I don't even know. It just kind of became a thing. I mean LL Cool J

wore the Kangols. Yeah, I guess so. Yeah, but he banged a lot while wearing that. You know what I mean? Do you think Chuck could play Anakin Skywalker in a remake of Episode 6 of Star Wars? I think when the helmet

came off I've seen him without it I have it's a combination of my pale skin and the fact that you don't see me

without it dude just just look at yourself in the camera I mean look at you what a dumb what a dumb

piece of let me down Our love is like water Once again, we went five minutes too long, Luke You did it again I knew to pull the plug at the right time Alright, Chuck, good to have you, my friend We'll see you again soon

Appreciate it, guys Everyone, it's Chuck Bendenhall MK, we're out That was a good one. That was a good one.