MORNING KOMBAT WITH LUKE THOMAS AND BRIAN CAMPBELL - Rashad Evans Details Psychedelic Journey, UFC Career and Legacy | Morning Kombat RSD

Episode Date: May 2, 2023

Luke Thomas and Brian Campbell sit down with Hall of Famer Suga Rashad Evans to break down his career and life experiences in this Room Service Diaries episode. Rashad discusses experimenting with psychedelics, His biggest win of his career, what went wrong vs. Jon Jones and much more! You won't want to miss this episode. (1:50) - Experimenting with Drugs & Psychedelics (19:00) - Rashad vs. Chuck Liddell (27:50) - Career Earnings (29:50) - Being a UFC Pioneer (32:40) - Leaving Jackson-Wink MMA (33:30) - Coaching/Mentoring (37:50) - Jon Jones Fight (44:15) - Lyoto Machida Fight (46:30) - Knee Injury (48:30) - Evolution of MMA (50:30) - Jackson-Wink MMA- (54:00) - Family (55:30) - Blackzilians Revamp (59:59) - 2013 Vitor Belfort Morning Kombat is available for free on the Audacy app as well as Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher and wherever else you listen to podcasts.     For more Combat Sports coverage subscribe here: youtube.com/MorningKombat   Follow our hosts on Twitter: @BCampbellCBS, @lthomasnews, @MorningKombat    For Morning Kombat gear visit:morning kombat.store   Follow our hosts on Instagram: @BrianCampbell, @lukethomasnews, @MorningKombat Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

UFC returns this weekend on pay-per-view, returns to the city of Miami. You going to lower my shirt? Where is it at? Am I fucking blind? Wow, that's low now. Jesus, man. It's a Nova shot, right? Doesn't seem that way. You guys are showing up. You better come on here shirtless. This is very pro MMA fighter. Never a dull moment here on CBS Sports HQ. It is a welterweight bout between Burns and Jorge Masvidal.

Only one of us hosts 40F Nice Apps. Morning Combat's tour of South Florida would not be complete without a room service diary sit-down with our own in-house Hall of Fame champion, Sugar Rashad Evans. It's Brian Campbell. It's Luke Thomas. It's RSD here on the grounds of CBS Sports in Fort Lauderdale.

But our guy is back in the seat. Pour some sugar on me in the name of love. Do you know that song was actually about? Sex? Yes. Sugar Rashad, I mean, I've done a podcast with you for years. I know these great stories, but we appreciate you sitting down with us to tell a few of those because you've had and are still having as a broadcaster, an ayahuasca truther, one hell of a career. Absolutely, man. I've been still going, you know, just enjoying the ride.

And that's been, you know, my mantra for the second half of my life, or I should say second phase of my life, is just enjoy it. Enjoy the process. I feel like a lot of times as an athlete, I spent too much time worrying about the end result, the end result to the point where I really missed a lot of the ride along the way. Cause I'm too busy looking far ahead. I feel like the same kind of way. I just want to get right to it. If I can,

can we talk drugs? That's good. You're like, you're like, if you could produce a toad right now, I want to be, I want to be dead serious. I want to have, I want to have an adult conversation with this. And I mean this in all sincerity, I will tell you that I have had, it's done a lot of reading on this. I've never experimented in the way that you have, but I certainly in no way bash it or think little of it. In fact, I think quite good of it.

When did you realize – and I'm being dead serious – when did you realize that there were certain kinds of experiences, certain kinds of drugs, and the combination of the two that could change the way you thought about yourself in a helpful and serious way? You know, it really came to me when I did the Toad, when I did 5-MeO DMT in 2018. It was after I lost a fight with Anthony Smith and I've dabbled with it and played with, you know, mushrooms, psychedelic mushrooms at the time, but it didn't quite, I'd never had that breakthrough, right? You have, they say you have a breakthrough when you just kind of like crash through what you understand consciousness to be and you start to see things differently. And when I did the toad, which is a five MEO DMT secreted from the back of the Sonoran Desert Toad, that just completely changed everything. It was almost as if I woke up in the middle of my life. Okay, so let's take a step back.

What prompted you to try that? Who helped you? Walk me through how you went from, I don't know anything about this, to now I'm doing this toad. So I was, towards the end of my career, I struggled. I lost five fights in a row. You guys know this.

And that struggle- Damn Sam Elvey. I mean, damn, right? Sam Elvey. I mean, damn, right? Sam Elvey every time. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, damn Sam Elvey did. But, I mean, that's part of the journey that brought me to it,

just not being able to have that breakthrough for myself and not come from that place of competing. Because for me, when I was competing at those times, I was like, it was therapy for me. But then it started- The fight itself? The fight itself. Fighting was just, it was therapy. It was how I worked out the issues that I had in my life.

But there was a disconnect and I couldn't figure it out. So towards the end of my career, I started to look for answers. And the guy that I knew was like, I think I know something that might help you. And I was like, tell me more. And the guy that I knew was like, I think I know something that might help you. And I was like, hmm, tell me more. Were you skeptical? I was skeptical. I was skeptical because I didn't think that anything could top any of the experience that I had.

And I didn't really think that psychedelics were gonna do it, you know? So I was like, all right, I'll try it. And when I tried it, it was... Where was this? It was in Colorado. Okay, it was in the United States. Yeah, it was in Where was this? It was in Colorado. Okay, it was in the United States. Yeah, it was in the United States. It was in Colorado in like a cabin in the mountains.

And was this like a... You know how Aaron Rodgers did like the... He did the darkness retreat. Was this like a retreat where they take people who are interested in some kind of experience and then... It's all part of Joshua Fabia's camp. Yeah, exactly. But I'm serious.

What was the process? What was the setting, I guess is what I'm asking. So the setting was, it was a group of friends. It was probably about 10 of us. And we got a shaman. And, you know, we went into my friend's cabin. And he had a cabin with some nice property in the mountains. And we just went outside, found a place.

And we just, you know, explored, explored our consciousness. And I was never the same ever since. We know now how much experimental drugs, psychedelic drugs can be used to combat PTSD and so many great things in the mental health field. It's now opening up new things, I think, as is marijuana in a lot of ways. Ketamine, you can do it now too. What sort of, I mean, look, professional fighting is not easy. You were able to become UFC light heavyweight champion.

You are in the UFC hall of fame. You've still got a great career in the sport as a broadcaster, coach, mentor, all that. But like, is this life trauma? Is this trauma from the sport that led you to something here? I would say a little bit of both. I will say a little bit of both.

And I will say, you know, it's more of life trauma because the trauma in fighting, yeah, it's trauma, getting disappointed and stuff like that. But it was, it was more of the life trauma that I've had since, you know, growing up and not, you know, I use fighting to deal with those issues a lot of times, but then fighting was not a big enough stick. And to say, and honestly speaking um i kind of solved a lot of those problems just through fighting you know so i worked through a lot of those problems but i felt as if like the more damage i was doing as i became this fighter who the world knew me as kind of caused more trauma you know i got divorced um out of the house with my two kids that

I had my wife with, you know, living in Florida. They live in Illinois, not being able to be the father that I want to be to them. You know, those are the kind of things that was eating at me at the end of the day, because no matter how successful I was, I failed. I failed in that aspect. And that's the stain that you can't wipe away. And it's something that for me, it hurt me at such a level because I was a product of, of a divorce. And I knew what that meant for me growing up, you know, having an estranged relationship with my father. So I was kind of hurting the fact that I did the same thing to my kids. And, um, it was hard to deal with. It was hard to deal with. But that

was kind of some of the trauma that living the lifestyle. Remember, I talk about, you know, when you get to a certain level in a fight game, you start living a certain lifestyle. You start going to the parties. You start, you know, hooking up with the girls. You know, you start, you know, doing the drugs and all the other things that come along with just living. And at first, it's great. At first first it's great. And it's the best thing. He would not know. Yeah. But at first it is awesome. It's the best thing ever. And you're like, man, I wish I can do this forever. But then you start doing it and then you realize that

it's not so great and you can get so mentally convoluted you lose your way. Okay, so help me understand in a basic way. What's the expression? Talk to me like I'm five, right? Tell me like I'm five. Mansplain. Mansplain to me. Mansplain it. But ayahuasca explain. Tell me in the simplest terms what the trip was like and a little bit how long it lasted. And also on the other side, I want you to tell me the first thing that occurred to you in terms of like the clarity and the understanding that it provided. Yeah, so when you do this medicine,

you know, you sit down with a shaman and you know, the medicine itself, it's secretions from the back, the toe, from the toe. So it's like they milk the gland and they pop it and it's on a glass and they scrape it and it looks like fish scales so you smoke that and when you smoke it you feel like you died you feel like you just died and the first thing you probably say to yourself is man i just killed myself which i did say but then there was this moment where it all became clear to me.

It all became like waking up from a dream, being in a strange environment, being like having to piece together everything that, you know, how you get there, what's your name and everything like that. It became like one of those moments. And I started to remember being in this place. It was this place of just the most amazing bright light, almost as if I was in the sun. And then there was this feeling of love that just kind of almost took the breath away from me. And then there was this feeling of just completeness and of there was nothing left to be done. Everything was okay.

Everything was going to be okay. And everything has always been okay. Everything was going to be okay. And everything has always been okay. And there was just this realization of just kind of like, like my consciousness expanded to the point where it almost felt as if like this experience is nothing but a dream. So I'm in this state and I'm in there for like 17 minutes and I'm going through just like the gamut of emotions just riding this wave and and a lot of it is so incomprehensible because this place that I was at it was nothing like anything here because there was it's a non-dual experience meaning there's not me and anything else it's only me but I'm everything and nothing all at the same time. And it was the most mind boggling thing. So as I'm starting to come out of it,

17 minutes later, I remember this feeling of just like, like my heart being ripped out. And it felt as if like I was a little kid and my mom just walked out the door and I'm crying and I'm screaming I'm like please don't go please don't go and then I wake up and I'm looking at the sky and it's very pixelated and grainy almost as if like it's a tv like it's some kind of video game and it's very pixelated and grainy and then it just all starts to come together very clear. And at that moment, I woke up and I just started crying. And I cried because I couldn't believe how complicated I made life. Like everything you were striving for was almost BS or worthless. And this is what, you know, I had a similar spiritual breakthrough when i was 25 that didn't involve drugs but was that physically mentally that exact experience and it was quick

and just like that my life was changed i was a different person i knew the truth about a lot of things that had been you know bothering me and led to bad things and it was just like oh like the jolt of yeah oh this is how it really life is really yeah and and i appreciate you sharing it at this level because i knew you before and i know you now and you're always a great guy but it's such a marked difference in you're one of my favorite people in this in this game in this industry and you know we always talk about there's sometimes not a lot of great people in this game and in this industry this man is like blood in one of those um i i think that is incredible that you walk that out and experience. But I'm curious about what it did in terms,

it sounds like it changed a lot of your perspective, but did it change your actions subsequently? It ended up changing my actions because you are what you think. And when you're not thinking the same way, your actions will inevitably change. And that's what happened to me. Like things that didn't serve me anymore just fell away as if like I never did them before. I never had interest before. One was drinking alcohol. You know, I stopped drinking alcohol. Not that

I think alcohol is bad, but for me, it led me to a place where I was doing a lot of bad things in a cyclical behavior that kind of led me in depression and everything else like that. So I just stopped doing it. And it wasn't like I was like, okay, I'm going to stop doing it. Like I couldn't stomach drinking alcohol no more. Like when I drink alcohol, I'll take a sip and I'll violently throw up. It was like my body said no more. And the same thing was for like, you know, I used to be a ladies man in a sense.

For lack of better words, I was a ladies man. I had a couple here and there. Had some good years, huh? Had some good years. I won't say anything to incriminate myself, but I had some good times. But once I had that experience, I could no longer do that anymore. It was just to the point where I was like, it just fell away from me. I just had no interest in it anymore.

And I had a bunch of different things start to happen to me like that, even stop eating meat. You told me that it was literally like night and day. And we always say you're in such incredible shape. And you look like you could get back in there if you ever want to again. And you recently did. Congratulations for that Eagle FC win. But you couldn't even stomach the idea of meat ever again, right? Just like that.

Not even. I never craved it again. Even when I smell it sometimes, I'm kind of like, you know, it doesn't make me hungry. You know how like you smell meat or something when you're hungry? Like a barbecue grill or something. Yeah, like that doesn't make me hungry. Okay, but here's my question then. Imagine you had done that experience before The Ultimate Fighter.

You wouldn't be the Rashad Evans that we knew today, it sounds like. It sounds like, I mean, I often wonder about this. Like how many guys get into fighting because they've just got unresolved issues. Yeah. You know, I w you wouldn't, you wouldn't have fought, would you? No, I don't know if I would have fought, you know, I, and I came back to fight in Eagle FC because of the fact that something happened to me once I did the medicine that allowed me to compete again from a place which I stopped competing from.

And that was the fun aspect. I wasn't having any fun anymore. I wasn't enjoying the process anymore. I wasn't enjoying the mental games that I played with myself along the way to make it to a fight. You know, like say, okay, if I don't run, you know, 10 times up the street and then sprint five afterwards, then I'm not gonna win this fight.

And that's the kind of game that I would play with myself. But it was just for fun, you know, and I would think along the way, me having my arms raised, I started doing that again. So it made me enjoy the process more and made me understand that to be able to express myself like this and to be able to have a chance to fight is a gift. I started looking at everything as a gift, like, oh oh man, I'm so lucky I get to do it. So it made me want to fight in that aspect, but I don't know if it would have been my truest expression to fight because the fact that I've got such a huge emotional block off me.

You know, when I was fighting, I had such a chip on my shoulder. I had such a mindset where I was uncivilized. You know, I had the uncivilized mindset. And, you know, they say it feels as if like I became a little too civilized during my career towards the end. I've seen that from certain fighters. I mean, you mentioned the religious awakening, but I can't tell if it's a chicken or an egg

kind of thing. You see fighters get a little bit towards the end of their career, and sometimes I've seen like they get a little bit more religiously observant, whichever version of that they care for. And I can't tell if they, are they going to that because something has changed or because in finding that it not humbles them in the bad sense, but actually in the good sense. I can never tell which situation, but you often see towards the end, people finding

these kinds of like meaningful connections to the world a little bit. Yeah. It changes a lot of things. Like I, the way I put it is the fact that like when I was on top and I was doing my thing, fighting was the most important thing in my life. And then life was just extra on the outside. But everything was all about fighting. But then it got to the point where once I got injured a couple of times, life started taking precedent.

And then my training and my fighting became something that I added on afterwards. So it became more of an after effect. But when you're in a game like fighting, you got to be married to it. You got to be married to this game. That has to be your wife. That has to be your mistress. That has to be what you go to sleep thinking about. You know, it has to be such a part of your fabric because you're going against guys and gals who have that mindset. That mindset is they're so ambitious, they're so hungry for it, and they think about those things naturally. So if you're not thinking like that, then you're gonna get passed up. That's it. I love when you break down the mindset of the fighter. Just so you know,

this actually these cameras aren't even on. This is an intervention. We've got toes waiting. I got the 2013 Vitor needle ready. Okay, all right. We're going to turn this life around, you know. I can use some help. I can use some help. Rashad, to get to that life change and all, you built a hell of a career. But I got to say, in how people look at you now and talk about you,

you got this, like, Uncle Rashad vibe. You're like, you know, if this was pro wrestling, you're like one of the good guys. People are like, yeah, that's Rashad. Do you kind of like being that combination of like, I don't know, to the UFC, they must look at you as Hall of Famer, former champion, but you've always been charismatic.

You've always been bubbly. Fans, they love them some Rashad. And are you happy with that sort of way people look at you now? I truly am And I never really knew how I was gonna be Taken by the fans, especially from the way I started, you know Remember a rampage boo that man and everybody will boo like crazy

But I was Matthew's getting mad at you for showboating on the yeah I was booed for the longest time and people hated me for the longest time, but it's good to see that That turnaround it's good to feel that appreciation. It's good to feel that appreciation. It's good to get your flowers. And when I became Hall of Fame, that's something I didn't expect to hit me right here, right? It hit me in the heart where I didn't feel that or I didn't think that I would prior. And it was all about just everybody just letting me know how much they appreciated me. And it really made me feel as if no matter how bad I feel things got in my mind in my career, I never left their hearts. They still had love for me.

And it really made it worth it in another level for myself, you know? I can believe it. When you look back at your, I guess your career in general, but certainly your UFC run, let's talk about the good stuff, right? Yeah. Okay, winning the title probably means the most, but I guess I'm wondering, is there something not even so much for the knockout, but it was just me overcoming myself. That was the first time that I've overcame myself to the point where I quieted that voice in my mind that brought the doubt to the table, that was super afraid and kind of like, you know, I could be like that.

Sometimes I wouldn't even eat. I'll like that. Sometimes I wouldn't even eat. I'll be so nervous that I wouldn't even eat. Greg Jackson or Mike Winklejohn, I'm like, dude, you got to eat something before you go down and fight. And I'm like, I'm just not hungry. You know, there was a thing about they would have to make me eat a little bit every hour because I wouldn't eat anything. I was famous for that. So I would let my nerves get the best of me. But for that fight, it just came together. And that was the Randy Couture talk when he gave me the talk like, yo, you got to just accept the worst outcome.

You got to make friends with the worst outcome. This was the night before you fought Chuck Liddell in Atlanta, correct? Yeah, the night before I fought Chuck Liddell in Atlanta. I was so nervous, and I pushed the nerves away, but then it got to me at weigh-ins. I'm looking in his eyes, and Chuck was looking crazy as hell. So I'm like, oh, my God, he's going to kill me tomorrow. What did I get myself into, right?

And it started to occur to me why everybody was giving me that look every single time I got it. You know, I told him I had to fight Chuck O'Dell. Like, oh, okay, good luck, you know? I was starting to feel that feeling. So I had got so nervous to the point where I hit up Randy Couture and he happened to be one floor below me. And I went to his room and I'm like, Randy, I'm scared. I'm scared.

And I'm flailing about on his bed. And Randy's just cool and calm as ever. He's like laughing a little bit. He's like, all right. You know, the problem is you just got to make friends with the worst outcome. And I was in the locker room dressing with Randy Couture when he got separated from consciousness with Chuck Liddell. So I'm kind of like, yo, he knocked out my guy. So I was a little nervous.

But when he told me that, just free myself and let me make friends with the worst outcome, that night I stayed in the mirror. I was in the mirror. I was just cussing myself out like, just cussing myself out. Like, I don't give a fuck. I don't give a fuck. And I was not, not afraid of anything. Just like saying that over and over to myself too. I started to believe it. And then when I went out there the next day to fight, I was so hyped up that I forgot my jock strap. No worries. No worries. I had a teammate on the card. Nate Marquardt. He just fought two fights before and I wore his wet jockstrap out there.

That's so not glamorous. Wet, nasty. Wait, is it the same size? I mean, I don't know how this works. It was a little tight. I heard what Chubb said about him. I've heard that. I've heard that. I've heard that. I've heard it, okay.

You heard him say that too, didn't you? Yeah, I've heard it. I've heard it. I've heard it. But yeah, I wore that dirty jockstrap. And that was part of the process too, because that's another thing. It's about letting go.

And I figured out like whenever I competed at my best, it was when I was able to let go the most. Yeah. And that's a life lesson. It's hard to competed at my best, it was when I was able to let go the most. Yeah. And that's a life lesson. It's hard to maintain at that level, but, God, you maintained it that night. I almost think that's, in a weird way, like, I mean, that's your best win. I mean, I know you won the championship in the next fight. You won the Ultimate Fighter. Like, you've done a lot of good stuff.

You did a million pay-per-view buys with Rampage. I mean, you fought Jon Jones and hurt him late, and we'll get to that. But that night, it may have just been where you were the best version you ever could have been. But you, like, violently knocked out the baddest man we had ever seen in the history of the sport. And I'll never forget that sound.

Do you remember watching that live? I remember watching it live. I had buddies of mine who went to that show. They drove from D.C. to Atlanta, and they wanted me to go. I couldn't. I was at work. And I remember they were big Chuck Liddell fans. And for what it's worth, I was like, oh, Rashad's going to win this one. I had no. My man.

My man. I had no. But I did not know it was going to go the way that it actually went, where you just, here's what I'll never forget. And I want to get your impression about this. I remember after you hit him, the thing that stuck out to me me the most and you don't actually see it that much these days but i'll never forget you hit him with that shot he goes face down and you could have heard except for your i think it was your wife at the time yeah you could have heard a fucking pin drop yeah i

mean atlanta was they could not believe what they were looking at. And even I was like, and then, and then I remember this, Rashad, I don't think I remember this, the old Red Fox bit. And I was like, wow. Because it took you a second, right? You didn't celebrate right away. It wasn't like you were like, yeah, you know. It took you a second.

No, I want, so I hit him and I wanted to go over and check on him. But because of the state he was in, they wanted to keep the cameras away. So when they were like, I went over to them, they pushed me away. Like, no, no, no, go. So they had the cameras on me, so I was like, that's why I did this first. I was like, I don't know what to do. And I was like, I can't believe it, you know? Have you ever run into Chuck Liddell, like, years later and been like,

sorry about that, by the way? Me and Chuck Liddell are actually good friends, man. I've hung out with Chuck many times, and we've had many great parties and many great party experiences together. Chuck is probably one of the best guys in the sport. You know, he's a great guy, a great friend of mine. And I kind of feel bad though you know i kind of feel bad like i don't like talking about like somebody see us

together and be like oh man when you fought chuck and chuck's right next to him it's like yeah it's a little weird well he had already been knocked out by rampage but he was still that dude in that fight for sure and i think you took a lot of what was left. You know what I mean? And I know he still, didn't he beat Vandal after that? Vandal, yeah. And also like, yeah, like Rampage knocked him out, but it wasn't the way that he knocked him out. So we know what that did to sort of slide

what he had built, but did you, like how quickly did you realize that that was gonna be like, forget career changing, like life changing moment. Yeah. Like that, that knockout came just as the sport was peeking through on Sports Illustrated cover, like largely because of Chuck and then Rampage.

But it's like, that was still a large moment in the building of the brand at the same time. Like, did you know instantly like, oh, it's never going to be the same now? I knew it wasn't going to be the same the minute I walked out the tunnel. The song I came out to was called Immortal Technique, Point of No Return. I love that song. And in that song, he says, the place that I'm from doesn't exist anymore. And I knew no matter what happened that night, my life would never be the same. I'll either be the guy who beat Chuck Liddell or the guy who got humiliated by Chuck

Liddell. But I was never going to be the guy who was before I walked out. I was never going to be that guy again. So that was another thing for me to say, I got to let go. And it was all about, I'm letting go. Whatever happens, happens. And there's something so beautiful and so peaceful about truly letting go. It's almost as if like I would visualize myself just like just doing a back dive, just falling off a cliff and just allowing myself to just, whatever happens, happens. I would mentally visualize myself doing that over and over again to just let go and let it happen.

Rob Markman And didn't they give you a paper bag bonus in the back too? That was like- Rob Markman Oh, back in the day. Yeah, yeah. So the next morning, see they used to take care of, back in it. Yeah. Yeah. So the next morning. See, they used to take care of us back in the day, back in the day, man, they'll come through with these backroom bonuses. Now you just get holler head bottles. They came in, cut me a check for three hundred and seventy five K at breakfast the next day.

And I feel like, golly, I've never seen that kind of money before." And the crazy part about it was before that fight happened, I took a new contract signing and I didn't want to sign it. And I was like, I don't want to sign this. I think I'm worth more. And they said, listen, because I was supposed to fight him in London but it didn't happen because we didn't work out a deal. So they said, just sign the contract and if you win this fight, we'll make it right. So I'm like, all right, we'll see. Now after I won the fight i was like are they gonna make it right and you know what they damn sure did make it right damn right they kept their word man that obviously was like a life

changing moment financially star wise do you look back now i mean you had to have blown a certain amount of that check on like what would we do if we got super famous and rich tomorrow we'd buy something really stupid that we would regret instantly, right? Delta 8s. Well, a lot of Delta 8s. But you know what they always say? Like, if you own a boat, the best day of boat ownership is the day you buy it and the day you sell it. What did you buy looking back there?

Like, oh, I bought a house. I bought a house. It's not a bad investment. Yeah, I bought a house, man, in Illinois. And I didn't go crazy with it. Just, you know, just bought a house with it. Did you make the kind of money you want to make? And what I mean by that is everyone always wants to make more. But were you satisfied in the end that, like, hey,

I made X amount in a fighting career at this time in the sport? Because obviously now it's a little bit different. Yeah. I made a great amount of money, you of money considering the time that it was. They've written me checks for the Rampage fight for like $1.5 million on top of what I was already getting paid. So they looked out, man. They've always, and that's the thing, like, there's this thing with the UFC where, you know,

they're known for not paying their fighters and stuff, but they went above and beyond for me at the time when they really didn't have to, you know, because the contract was a contract, but they always looked out and gave me more. I definitely feel like there are guys that they take care of. Yeah.

Right? You have to be in that inner circle. Oh, man, you got to be part of the family. Listen, you got to be part of the family. Come on. What are you doing, huh? Did the money make you feel like you were part of the inner circle? Like from UFC?

Yeah. Or was it the way that they paid you? Like, great knockout. Here's a fat check or something. Yeah, it's the backroom bonuses, but it's just the way that they treat me. They always include me. They've always made me part of the team. Lorenzo Fertitta is the one who bought me my first expensive suits at Tom Ford.

He went and bought like five of them for me. That's nice. And he came and picked me up, and we had a great day together. And he showed me what to get, his style and what I should wear. And he didn't have to do that. But it was, you know, they looked out. All right. All right.

Now, look, not the first champion, but is he the first African-American star in UFC history? Because people forget that, like, you did a million pay-per-view buys. You had a few pay-per-views in a row where that were like, you need a title with Rampage. I mean, you had some. I wonder how you feel about that, because there were some interesting names before. Maybe they were not on your level, but there were some real pioneers. I honestly count Shoney Carter a little bit

in that role. Obviously, Eugene Jackson was in that role. Kevin Jackson. There were some other figures. Obviously, Rampage was around. Kevin Randleman early in the day. Kevin Randleman, and who can forget the monster, Kevin Randleman. But still, do you feel like you played a pretty big role? Because here's the thing, dude.

We go to boxing fights. Yeah. And there's like, the only white people there are us. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then we go to an MMA fight, and it's like, the only black people there are like the fighters. Yeah. I'm exaggerating in either direction, but you know what I'm saying.

No, I know exactly what you're saying. Yeah, I feel like I definitely was one of the pioneer black athletes, but I felt as if my success and what I was able to bring to the table was piggybacked off of the work that each and every single one of those fighters did. They kind of helped me pave the way. I was close with Shawnee and those guys all the way up until, you know, for my whole career. And they would, you know, kind of give me the lessons, you know, because there are some taxes that you got to pay. You know, there's some taxes you got to pay.

And people would say some crazy stuff to me like, you know, the N-word. And, you know, they would email me. In person? No, no, not in person. Not in person. They are like, you know, on in person. Not in person. They are like on social media. On social media they'll just curse me out and say the most vile things ever, but it's all part of it.

I always wanted to be looked at as a fighter and not a black fighter. Yeah. You know, not saying that I didn't value being black. I didn't value my impact, but I knew that I was more than just being a black fighter. You know, I was more, I wasn't good just because I was athletic. Right, right.

You know what I'm saying? Like, I know a lot of times that, you know, you listen to the commentary back in the day, they're like, oh, he's athletic. Explosive. Yeah, it's these terms that we use for black athletes and white athletes that are racially coloring without even doing it, but it's just a societal thing. And now I feel like we've grown enough in a sport where it's beyond that. Fighters are looked at for their skill level.

And, you know, if they're athletic, they're athletic. But they're not only good because they're black, because they're athletic. Right. Fair enough. When you look back on your career and you look at the move from Jackson's to South Florida, basically, could you, in your own words, put into context just how much did your life change by virtue of that? It was the biggest change in my life. And I'll say that because I was going through a divorce at the time.

During the move from one to the other? During the move, yes. Well, that's brutal. I broke up with the Jackson's team and then my best friend, who was my wife, we were split up and I was just like in this place of like. Broke up with John Jones, too. Yeah. Broke up with John Jones, you know, and it was it was a very, very tough time. My life's transition was a very it was a very tough transition. And I didn't I don't feel like looking back, like I gave myself enough time to feel, you know, and it was something that for me, I didn't feel the effects of that so viscerally until I had time when I hurt my knee and then life caught up to me. You know, all the things that I just kind of stayed busy to forget, now it started to catch up to me.

And then that's when, you know, things started to become remarkably harder in my life and then to turn and fighting. Still, though, the move to South Florida, I feel like, I don't know, was an interesting pivot at the time. Yeah. What do you think the legacy of your move down here has been? You know, with my legacy, you know, I've created such a great thing here with these athletes. You know, I've given birth to a lot of people's careers. You know, you can go down the list of the fighters who are in that Black Zan camp. Crazy. of the fighters who were in that Black Zayn camp. You know, you had, you had, you know, Tyrone Spong,

Anthony Johnson, Michael Johnson, Kamaru Usman, you know, Vitor Belfort, Alistair Overeem, Gilbert Burns. It was- Did Mitrione ever come down there? Mitrione. Meathead, right? Meathead, Meathead.

It was, there's so many, there's so many, I'm forgetting. Rumble? Huh, Rumble? He said Rumble. Mario Sperry. We've had Kenny Monday. We've had so many. Mike Van Aarza. We have so many great coaches and athletes that came. Henry Hoof got his birth there. Came with Tyrone Spung. Ended up now being coach of the year. Now he runs one of the best camps in the world. And all that came because I decided to move in Florida. And I came here with the intent to just say, you know what?

I'm done with super camps. I don't even want a super camp. Don't talk to me about a super camp. And I ended up making a super camp. And you built another one. And you joined another one. And you're still around. I mean, look, seriously, what does it mean?

Because the buildup to Kamaru Usman's third fight with Leon Edwards, where he didn't do a lot of media, but then talked ahead of the fight, you know, he said, I'm built for this to come back and win back my title. He didn't get to, he didn't do it close fight, but he said, because I watched closely the people that I was able to have as mentors. And he was like, he brought it up right away. He's like Rashad Evans. I got to sit in that learning tree and learn from him. You get that as sort of the uncle now of MMA a lot. When you hear a champion say that and give back like that, it's got to make you feel like, man, I added something here.

Man, it honestly makes me emotional. And I get excited when I see these guys do well because it feels like a piece of me gets to go on. I never thought that investment in them was really investment in me. You know, like I invested in them because I really wanted them to have a chance and get a hand in the sport that, you know, I didn't get. You know, and I wanted them to really to live this life and to get a chance

to do it and uplift their life. And they're doing it. You know, there are some people that I tried to help and I wasn't able to do it and you can't, you can't save them all. But the ones that you can, the ones that you, the ones that I've been able to help, it, it makes me happy. So when I see Kamaru out there doing his thing, it made me so happy. And to see him lose, it was kind of, you know, it was very sad for me in the respect that, you know, he was such a product of what it was that, you know, I built. You know, he was part of the gym, but he also lived with me for about five years. For five years? Yeah, he lived with me for about five years. For five years?

Yeah, he lived with me for about five years, man. And it was, you know, he was my brother. You know, he would, you know, I gave him a car. I even, you know, leased a car so he'll have a car to drive and made sure he had everything he needed so he can just have tunnel vision and focus. And, you know, to see him go out there and achieve, it really meant that that work wasn't for nothing. And then you have the Glenn Robinson aspect of it, who was the manager.

Rest in peace, yeah. Yep, rest in peace, who passed away. And, you know, he was another one who did everything he can for these fighters and for Kamaru Usman. So to see him lose was kind of like, man, this, this era is ending, you know? All right. So that's the, the, the great stories and the good news when camps go well, when you asked him the question about the move, the move led to a lot of craziness and you and John Jones having one of the most memorable beefs in a build to a fight in the history of the UFC,

the ex teammates turn on each other. Now student versus mentor, all that, that also was a lot of trauma in your personal life it also led to this giant pay-per-view fight do you look back on that and go you know it wasn't the healthiest way but it had to go that way and i'm happy i was a part of it or are you like man we never had to break up i never had to leave that gym you know um i'm a big believer in the fact that you know no regrets life, even when you do have some, right? You got to, you just got to... Jesus, all I have is regrets. What I mean is it's like, you know, you just look, I just look at the fact that,

you know, I'm very happy at where I am. You know, I'm very happy with my life. I'm very happy with, you know, who I am as a person. And I couldn't have had that if I didn't have all those other things. And I wish a part of me, I could have stayed connected with John and able to train alongside with him. Because I would say this, I love training with John Jones

because it was a challenge for one. But for two, he was a fun person to be around. Like after training, we would fuck around for like an hour, just playing around, doing different moves and trying to catch me with this and perfect and all the stuff that you see him do. And it was just play. And I would love to see where that relationship could have went. But at the same time, what I've, you know, what I've been able to do outside of that, for me, I can't forego that. You know, for me, that was what this was probably all about. Let me ask if I can about Jon Jones just a little bit, which is, and I want to be very clear here,

I am not in any way asking you to bash him or insult him that's not what i'm about to do but i am going to say this he obviously looked amazing against cyril gone right like he just ran over the guy but like you know during the pandemic so between the reyes fight and then the gone fight he got arrested twice once for he was drunk in his car firing guns often in downtown albuquerque that was abandoned due to pandemic or whatever. And then later he had the issue with, you know, whatever happened with his wife. And then we saw him headbutting the car. It's like...

Introducing the new McSpicy from McDonald's. It looks like a regular chicken sandwich, but it's actually a spicy chicken sandwich. McSpicy. Consider yourself warned. Limited time only at participating McDonald's in Canada. I don't know, man. Do you think he's past his old troubles? And I certainly hope that he is for his sake and his children's sake and everybody else's sake. The best outcome for everyone is a happy and healthy Jon Jones.

And I truly mean that. But I don't know if that's the one we got, man. I don't know. What's your read? It's too early to tell. And I say that because, you know, success and things like that kind of brings up the worst in him at times, right? So it's too early to tell. But from when I seen him, the last fight, it was almost as if, like, he was a different person in so many respects. The fact that I'd never seen Jon Jones get his flowers like that from the crowd, from just everyone there.

They really gave him his flowers. They really gave him his flowers. They really poured love into him. And he responded. He seemed joyful at every turn. He seemed joyful at every turn, very thankful. And it seemed as if like he wants to be that guy and him being considered the greatest of all time. Not only does it come with the title, but it also comes with expectations. And I feel if he's ready

to be the greatest of all time, maybe he's ready to act like the greatest of all time and have his actions start to match that title. So hopefully, hopefully, and I pray that he does find his way because there was times where I would wake up from a dream. I don't know why, but I would sometimes, he would come in my dream sometimes and he would be doing some crazy shit. And then I'll like hit up his manager, Malky. I'm like, hey, is John all right, man?

I had this crazy dream about him. I don't know. I'll check on him. But I just want him to do well, man. Well, I'm glad you guys have talked again, and you guys have rebuilt your friendship from everything that went on that led to that fight. But I'm a Rashad super fan, and people don't know.

What UFC was that? Do you know off the top of your head? 140, when you fought Jon Jones in Atlanta? Yeah. You didn't get finished by Jon. You went the distance. But you heard him late. There was a moment there. Was that the end of round four, I believe? Yeah.

Can you just remind people of what happened there? Well, I caught him with a nice overhand punch. And that rocked him. Like, he was on ice. But I kind of played around a little bit. got too cute, and he was able to recover. And then I caught him with a right head kick. And I didn't expect to land it, but he was putting so much pressure on me, I just threw that shit and it caught him. And he was on ice even worse than he was before.

So I got too cute again and I let him off the hook but he he felt me he felt me in those moments and it was uh you know I I didn't I didn't win the battle you know and I and things like that but I felt as if like I gave him something to think about and um it by any means it wasn't what I wanted to do but sometimes you got when you get your ass whooped you got to pull the silver line I will tell you you know what you got to, when you get your ass whooped, you got to pull the silver line. You got to have a moral victory. I will tell you, you know what I thought the fight turned against you was when he grabbed your hands and then came over with the elbow? I noticed your reaction after that was different than any other reaction.

Listen, I can count the times where I actually felt pain in a fight, and that was one of them. That was one of them. That was one of them. I was like, remember he had a few fights before crushed Brandon Vera's face with the same elbow. Yeah. He came over top and he caught me with the elbow.

And it's almost like I pulled myself into it. Cause I'm, I'm pushing against his hand, pushing his mind. And then he just pulled his hands away and I fall right into it. And then boom, he catches me with that elbow. And I remember feeling like fuck did herb

just hit me like did somebody just throw something in his cage and hit me now because i'm like i can't see anything right now and i was dazed and i was dizzy but i was like man what was that it took me a while to figure out like even what was it yeah john really was that good yeah he really really was that good but just a competitor in you when we talk about, like, the big moments that didn't go right, and I like that we can laugh about a couple of losses you had at the end, but, you know, you hurt John and it almost happened. Do you still think about the Machida fight? I mean, they'll still meme you in a cruel way,

which I don't appreciate, with the eyeballs. In fairness, they meme everyone. You hear Joe go, welcome to the Machida era. Does the competitor in you still go like, damn. Yeah, in fairness, that blew up in Joe Rogan's face too, right? Because he's like, the Machida era. And then there is no Machida era. Yeah, exactly.

You know, that fight does bother me a bit. And it bothers me because I felt like, I know. Sometimes you go in a cage with somebody, you're just like, okay, that person's better than me. He was better than me. But I felt as if I could have beat that guy. And what Machida did early is that he rattled me early. He's so smart. He's such a smart fighter.

And I just didn't anticipate what he was going to do. He threw a head kick as hard as he can, knowing I was going to block it. But I felt it. I felt it. Even though I blocked it, I felt it. And my thinking was like, holy shit, if he hits me with that kick, I am cooked. So after that, it made me like kind of rush my technique and kind of get out of my rhythm and get out of my time. And after that, I was... But he changes speeds too. He changes speeds.

Yeah, he was a clever, clever hitter. Also, he's like light touch, light touch, light touch. Yep. Hard touch. Gone. Yeah, it was bad. And the thing was, like, I remember that fight outside of the kick. He, like, tripped me down, and I fell down, and I got up,

and I'm like, what's going on here? Is this dude not understanding I'm the champion? Like, what's going on here? So I dude not understanding I'm the champion? Like, what's going on here? So I was kind of embarrassed in first round. And then second round, I'm like, okay, I'm going to put some heat on his ass. And then that's when I got caught. Well, you were part of that incredible run of light heavyweight legends that all traded the belt to each other.

And then John came in and took over. But, I mean, your resume, it holds up. You were a pay-per-view star at times. You beat Dan Hendo. You beat Michael Bisping. You were on the highest rated season of The Ultimate Fighter ever. You beat Tito Ortiz. People forget, man, you beat Keith Jardim on The Ultimate Fighter.

Man, that fight was a war. Hold on, you didn't just beat Tito Ortiz. Correct me if I'm wrong, you had the draw the first time. Yeah. And then you beat the fuck out of him the second time. The second time, yeah. but how much do you lament 2013 when you beat chael before the knee injury it did look like there was one more big run in you it really did man no no that that your physique too also i remember you uh bernard hopkins had done a sit down with you or like was giving you some pointers

and i was looking at rashad's physique i was like holy shit my man's been in the weight room yeah the high abs not just the regular ones i had like the eight pack maybe almost a 10 pack but that was mike ran ours there my grand ours there the man then me up he really built me up and it was that stretch that i've was off because i was waiting to fight shogun which dana said not to do i remember that vividly told me not to wait and I was waiting and waiting but all the time I was waiting I was just lifting weights and I've never really committed myself to a weight program before then so I said my body started to change and I kind of kept with it but in 2013 after I kind of started to get my rhythm back you know I had that stinker

fight against uh uh Noguera and then I beat Hendo and then I beat Cheo, but I was picking up rhythm. I was training with Mark Henry. I was starting to understand the game more. I started to become more of a student of the game and really started to feel myself. I was strong. I was one of the top guys in the weight class and I felt like it. And when that knee injury happened, I was going to whoop DC's ass. DC, I was going to of the top guys in the weight class and I felt like it. And when that knee injury happened, I was gonna whoop DC's ass. DC, I was gonna whoop your- That was the fight that was next.

Do you remember that? Yeah, I was gonna fight DC. I was training in training camp for DC and I was in the best shape ever, man. I was in the best shape. I felt the best I ever felt. And I was going with Cesar, Cesar Ferreira, Mutonche. Yeah, Mutonche, yeah.

And you know- He's fucking big as a-onche. Yeah, Mutonche, yeah. He's big as a house, man. He went down on my knee. It was like the last drill of my camp, and I blew it. Unbelievable. What do you make of, because you won such an early Ultimate Fighter season, you were a champion just as things were really picking up, and then you stayed a high-level fighter and a big name for a long time. Now you're a broadcaster.

How much has this game, specifically in the UFC, changed? What blows you away when you see it now, whether it's ESPN deal or any elements of the fight game that you're like, man, people don't know about 2005 and 2006. Man, well, I'm blown away by the fighter's evolution, first and foremost. It's crazy. It's crazy. You see it with the guys but i'm i'm more at

awe at the woman's evolution the woman's evolution in the sport game it's it's ridiculous to me because it didn't seem like that long ago where they just weren't that good like they were you know not really when 2013 even back then women were fighting catch weight fights yeah right yeah you know it was like 175 for whatever you know reason and now to your point like dude the wrestling has gotten like we did we had an interview with aaron blanchfield like she you just that that she didn't exist 10 years ago right period period i mean you're watching their skill level far as their hands they're not striking like you don't look at them like wow she's she's a woman like

she's like she's a fighter you know they you look at them like they're on par a lot of times with the guys and some of their techniques so that was one evolution that I like but you know one thing that I'm just kind of at awe at and and I get surprised that every single time I go somewhere is just the popularity of the sport. It has just blown me away because when I was in the game, I had to tell people what I would do, and they'd look at me like,

what was that? They'd look at me... When I told my mom I was going to be an MMA fighter, she said, your ass is going to end up in jail, and I'm like... Mom, it's legal now. It's legal. I's legal like it's not i get paid to do this yeah but i mean it's came it's come such a long way that you know the

popularity has blown me away and um you know i don't even know what to make of this whole like partnership with the wwe where where is it going to go to next? $21 billion between the two of them. Can you imagine? $21 billion? It's hard to even fathom what that is. That's more than a lot of countries. I want to go back a little bit if I can because I guess I've never had clarity on this one, so maybe you can finally help me.

In terms of your participation, what were the happiest days at Jackson MMA? The happiest days was when I first got to Jackson's gym. What year is this? It was 2005, and I was going down there after the Ultimate Fighter show because on the show, even though I fought Keith Zardine, he was my coach.

He was on my team, and he would show me all the technique I didn't really know. Because I came from a really small club in Lansing, Michigan, where I had this one guy who would train me. He like my age we watched videos i watched my respirator videos to learn jujitsu so um he would teach me everything and afterwards that come the jackson's gym and we would go on like the most amazing epic training journeys like greg jackson has got to be one of

the sickest trainers in the world like his mentality was unbelievable like you're in the battlefield like you're you're in a battlefield you were at war he would tell us and talk to us about like okay you know this feeling this is about death this is about seeking seeking death find that place find that place you know and he was like really into the whole samurai mentality and, you know, the book of five rings. Probably Dungeons and Dragons as a kid. Fucking nerd.

He would have us run the Sandia Mountains, which is probably like 11,000, 12,000 feet up in the air. And we would do these wedding carries where we had to carry each other like this every 60 steps we switched. That was after we did sprints on the stairs for about 49 times. And it was just, it was the most unbelievable training that I've ever done. But it was all about mental. And then during that time, he would just beat it in your mind like, hey, no man is going to be harder than this mountain. No man is going to be harder than this training.

And he was really into the sport. He was really into us. He would come and pick us up and drive us to training. That's how into it he was. Did you sleep in the gym like all the stories we see? Like Ali, I slept in the gym. I slept in the gym. I slept in the gym.

Ali was my roommate. Ali Abdelaziz was my roommate. That was your roommate? He was my roommate. He was an aspiring fighter? Were you there at the same time Saif Saoud was there? Yep. I was there. I was Saif's coach. I coached him a few times. Yep. Cowboy was there. Michelle Watterson lived with us upstairs. Was Diego there at that time? Diego

was there too, but he was kind of making that, he was kind of hitting that popularity. Ultimate Fighter 1, that's right. Ultimate Fighter 1, yep. So at the time when he was during a hiatus, GSP started to come in. I brought GSP into the gym. And do you have a GSP impression? I know you do a great impression. My God, my friend Rashad, if you see what I do last night, you will not talk to me. Tabernak the Curler. It's a little Arnold Schwarzenegger. Get to the chopper friend Rashad, if you see what I do last night, you will not talk to me.

It's a little Arnold Schwarzenegger. Get to the chopper, Rashad. How many times did your car get stolen in Albuquerque? That's really the big question. I rented this car from this bail bondsman. That's the most Albuquerque story to start. So I had this car I rented from a bail bondsman. Bail bondsman.

It was an old police car. Wait, wait, wait, wait. With like the lights and shit? The lights and everything. So I would drive around the neighborhood and I would turn the police lights on, shaking people down, man. Just kind of like turn the lights on, messing with them and shit. All right, Luke, I got to ask you about history here. Because in the hierarchy of brother combinations in MMA history, it's like Noguera's, Diaz's, Hughes's, you know, and you got all the Lima's,

and don't forget about Herbert Burns too. And then there's the Lozon's and the Dawkus's. What do we do with Hall of Famer Sugar Rashad Evans and his brother Lance? Don't forget that he did time in this game. Yeah. Okay, the ultimate fighter, Lance Evans, all right? Yeah, there's a brother combo.

Yeah, there's a fun... It's a little more Matt and Mark Hughes. Remember Mark Hughes? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lance is... How's he doing? He's doing good. Lance is doing good. He's a... He works on a railroad. He's a conductor. Dude, that's a great...

I know a guy who does that. He loves that job. Yeah, he's a conductor, but I got Lance Jr., and Lance Jr. lives with that job. Yeah, he's a conductor. But I got Lance Jr. And Lance Jr. lives with me right now. And he's a little badass, man. Do you want to be a fighter? Or he is a fighter? He is a fighter. He's training.

How old is he? He's 22. No, 21 years old. And Oomph was a Hall of Famer. This is going to be interesting here. He's coming along. I'm beating the hell out of him every day like he needs to get a nice little knock on the head. But it's for his own good.

You're like, Lance Jr., today you'll be sparring Andre Orlovsky. We'll find out how much you really want this. Lance Jr., he's a monster, man. He's a monster. He's coming up in the ranks, and he's hungry for it. He's hungry for it. He's got a good mindset for it, and he's hungry for it. He's hungry for it. He's got a good mindset for it. And he's got talent.

What do you want with this new reconstituted Blackzillions, Jim, you're trying? I mean, on the one hand, it sounds like, yeah, it'd be nice to. Do you want it to be a super camp? Do you just want to have fun? Do you just want to take care of these individual guys? What's the goal here? I just want to have fun. And I feel like fun is the basis for

building anything great and and it's everything is a lot uh easier to do once you're having fun doing it so um fun is the main the main reason but you know i want to be able to to to see if i can do it again i want to see if i can build up another camp and have other people have great careers from what I'm able to get off. As head trainer, as sort of leader? Yeah, I'm the head trainer, head leader. I love this. Yeah, so I'm so busy right now

that I'm in there probably like two to three times a week, if I'm lucky. But I'm trying to thin my schedule out a little bit more so I'll be able to dedicate more time to these fighters. But I love the fight game. I love the fight game, but I love coaching. I love coaching. I love being there, talking shit to them and being like, you know, just getting in their minds and really letting them understand what this game is about. See, a lot of these fighters, they want to get into this game and they want to be the movie

star. They want to be like it's all glamorous and be popular. Red carpet. Yeah, the red carpet. I'm like, no, fuck that. This is a game about suffering. This is a game about you being able to out suffer who is ever in front of you. And can you do that?

And I'm going to see if you can do that because that's what training is about. I'm going to make you suffer. I'm going to make you say, you know what, maybe there's an easier way for me to live. And if you're still around, then maybe you can, maybe you're ready. But that's the place where I like to coach from. And that's where I believe that you have these young fighters, you got to bring them up into that mindset because it's all what's going on between the ears all right what your coaching voice that you now instill in others is there some greg jackson in there is there some trevor whitman in there like what are the voices that make up that you know it's a lot of greg jackson um uh definitely some

trevor whitman but a whole lot of mike van Arsdale. People don't know about Mike Van Arsdale. Mike Van Arsdale was probably... He was one of the first MMA fighters I remember looking at being like, that dude is impressively muscular. Impressively. And Mike was... I've had some great coaches. Mike Winklejohn, Greg Jackson, Mario Sperry.

So many great coaches. Too many to name. But Mike Van Arresdale stands out because we had a close relationship. And as an athlete, sometimes you find yourself fighting for a coach, meaning I can lose. But if I lose in front of him, it just makes me feel that much bad because I know how much coach believes in me. You know, I don't want to let coach down. So I always fought harder when I had Mike Van Aresdale in the corner. And I also felt as if nothing can go wrong because I had Mike Van Aresdale as the coach because he's always

built me up. But Mike would have me training, right? And I'm on the airdyne, I'm busting, I'm grinding, I'm grinding. He'd be like, hey, Evs, Evs, Fs, Fs, you better keep it from going underneath that rate right now, because if you don't, we're going to do it all over again. So I'm doing it. I'm doing it. I'm going all the way. I'm trying to keep the RPMs up as hard as I can. And I fail by a little bit. He's like, come on, Fs, keep it up. We're doing the whole thing all over again. And I do it, do it, do it. And I just barely make it go underneath what he said and he says F's A A F's really good job man really good job you push hard but guess what you gotta do it again you're like look Miyagi enough of this bullshit right and I'm like

no what is I can't what is Mike Van Arsel up to these days uh he's still coaching he's still coaching in uh in Arizona. Phoenix, Arizona. He's a coach. He's got some young kids. He works with high school kids now. He's not doing MMA anymore. Just wrestling?

Yeah. Which is where he came from. Well, he's not so much wrestling. I'm strength training. Ah, okay. One hell of a strength trainer. I'll never forget this. I remember the first time I saw him fight live, he fought Couture.

Couture beat him. But I remember when they introduced him, I'm'm like couture might have his hands full this guy looks different uh he was he was you know and he was in the early early early early mma stage yeah he was nhb and stuff like that yeah yeah the people on ghb too probably in those fights check their system um quickly here we could talk to you for hours. We love having you, Rashad. I mean, you got such great perspective. You fought so many legends in the cage. You were there at the development of Jon Jones.

You eventually fought him. Jon Jones is probably the greatest fighter of all time. But to me, the greatest fighter I've ever seen for a minute. And in this case, one year. It happened in 2013. And it was a man named Mohawked Vitor Belfort. During that time when he was super human

did you spar did i mean were you in there sparring with him oh yeah please tell me no glorify my obsession with this mythological figure how nasty was the same guy who spin kicked luke rockhold i remember that michael bisping out. Dan Henderson gone. Tell me about that guy. Oh, my gosh. Vitor at that time was a fucking monster in every single sense of the word. TRT was legal back then. Yo, he would come into training, and he was sponsored by this telecommunications out in Brazil, and he would be fully geared up in the whole gear.

And he would come there, and he would just, like, take heads whole gear. And he would come there and he would just like take heads. And here's the thing about Vitor. Vitor would be like, hey, how's y'all doing? My neck is kind of a little sore a little bit. Can we go easy? I'm like, all right, cool. We start going, bop. I'm like, what the fuck?

You know what I'm saying? Like Vitor was that dude. Like he was taking heads and training. The guys I've noticed who always get, like, the... Like, he had boxing trunks, for example. I don't know if you saw his fight in this past weekend. He has, like, Jesus written across it. I'm like, always those guys.

Yo. Always the Jesus guys. They will hurt you so bad. He will hurt you so bad. And he used to whoop ass in practice. Like, honestly, like, he used to beat the dog shit out of Cesar Mutante. And, like... That was his understudy, right? That was his guy.

Yeah, but in order to get that opportunity, you had to train with Vitor. He had Paul Acosta, too. First time I met Paul Acosta was with Vitor Belfort on The Ultimate Fighter when he came and was working with him. So, I mean, Vitor was that guy. He was that guy, and he always had, like, some really badass underling, you know, apprentice waiting to come in his shoes, you know? Gregory Rodriguez. Robocop.

Robocop. He was one of Vitor's guys. We saw him yesterday. Yeah, I ended up stealing Gregory from Vitor and had him as my training partner. But, you know, Vitor back in those days was an animal. Him and Anthony Johnson in the same gym.

I've never seen somebody knock out more people in a gym training than Anthony Johnson. You did right by never fighting both of those guys. Although in practice, you probably got a lot of that. Rashad's great.

Yeah, I got to say, Rashad, here's the one connecting thread with your life in the sport is that it feels like we all have successes, we all have failures, we all make mistakes. But it does feel like to me, because I'm the same age as you and I've watched every one of your fights quite well, except for the ones that you can't find. But you have continuously made the sport better as a participant, as an analyst, as a coach, as a mentor, at every stage and at every version of yourself, high or low, as a drug advocate. But you know what I mean? In all seriousness, dude, I really feel like you've made the sport better and we're luckier for it.

Thank you. I appreciate that. And that's what, when people say, what is your legacy? What do you want to be remembered for? And it's just precisely that, man. That's all I really want because that to me, what you said means more to me than anything because I know that all the hard work and the heart that I put into it was worth it. And if they ever remake Marked for Death with Steven Seagal, you could play one of the Screwface brothers.

I love this look, man. Screwface, me don't know no Screwface. Hey, how many times did you make a straight to dvd movie oh like about eight and i died every one of them we gotta do mk movie review on a few we'll do that next time we'll do that next time all right uh room service diaries is in the books the hall of famer rashad one of my favorite episodes already dude we're gonna see you on the espn desk on more ufc cards in the future anything else you of Famer, Rashad Evans. One of my favorite episodes already, dude. We're going to see you on the ESPN desk on more UFC cards in the future.

Anything else you want to get out there? I mean, you always got something on the burner. I mean, just go to getumble.com and check out some of my line of functional mushrooms. Not the kind that's going to get you silly. We should talk after the show. Yeah. I won't believe it until I have samples in front of me.

So it's functional mushrooms like lion's mane, cordyceps, reishi, turkey tail, all the beneficial ones that help out your neurological body and help you out mentally, physically, and your clarity. He's a credit to the sport and credit to our team when he joins us here. Can we get him outfitted in more merch, RJ, please? Can we get on that?

It's Sugar Rashad Evans, Luke Thomas, Brian Campbell. South Florida's been great. See you on the couch next time.