MORNING KOMBAT WITH LUKE THOMAS AND BRIAN CAMPBELL - UFC 255 Expert Picks with Rashad Evans & Luke Thomas

Episode Date: November 19, 2020

Luke Thomas is joined by UFC Hall of Famer Rashad Evans to break down the entire main card of UFC 255. Deiveson Figueiredo vs. Alex Perez (0:45). Valentina Shevchenko vs. Jennifer Maia (16:20). Mike Perry vs. Tim Means (28:03). Katlyn Chookagian vs. Cynthia Calvillo (32:10). Shogun Rua vs. Paul Craig (36:45). Rashad's Picks: Figuieredo, Shevchenko, Perry, Calvillo, Craig. --------------------------------- 'Morning Kombat’ is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, Castbox, Google Podcasts, Bullhorn and wherever else you listen to podcasts.    For more Combat Sports coverage subscribe here: youtube.com/MorningKombat   Follow our hosts on Twitter: @BCampbellCBS, @lthomasnews, @MorningKombat    For Morning Kombat gear visit: store.sho.com   Follow our hosts on Instagram: @BrianCampbell, @lukethomasnews, @MorningKombat  To hear more from the CBS Sports Podcast Network, visit https://www.cbssports.com/podcasts/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Rise to rewards with the BMO Eclipse Rise Visa Card. Terms and conditions apply. All right, folks. Rise to rewards with the BMO Eclipse Rise Visa Card. Terms and conditions apply. All right, folks. Well, UFC 255, just about 48 hours away or so. So we've got to get you ready for it. We can think of nobody better to help us understand the fights, maybe had a bet on them if you're interested in doing that, than a man who understands the game, has been at the very top of it,

UFC Hall of Famer, former UFC light heavyweight champion, my friend and yours, CBS Sports Combat Sports Analyst, Rashad Evans. Hi, Rashad. How are you? Hey, Luke. How you doing, man? Good to be here with you, man. Normally, I'm with BC, but it's good to be with you, man. I know we got a history doing a little bit of podcast together, so it's fun to be back with you. It is fun to be back with you. I promise not to make any inappropriate statements that CBS will later regret. so i'm very different than bc in that regard all right let's let's get this party started there's like you know it's kind of funny i'm not one of these guys who is either super high or super low on the flyweights i feel like

a lot of people are polarized on them there's people like i don't care at all and then you get the anime hardcores and they're like oh oh my God, it's my favorite. Now, I love this fight. We'll talk about it in a second, but where are you on the flyweight division generally? It almost got eliminated. They kept it. And I think we have a pretty good fight on our hands, but I wonder about your perspective. Yeah, I kind of feel like you do. I feel like it lost a little bit of steam with the whole transition and not knowing if it's going to stay or go away. But it kind of got me excited to see Figueroa come back and fight the way that he did. You know, when he did what he did to Benavides twice in a row, that to me, you know, it brought back a sense of excitement back in the division because now, you know, one of the things in the

125 division, we all know those guys were so super athletic. But one thing that, you know, stood out to me is the fact that they just never really had the finishes, you know, those exciting finishes, those highlight reels that you see on ESPN, but now they have a fighter and, and, uh, Davidson Figueredo who can do that. When he missed weight the first time in one, did you think the second fight against Benavidez was going to go the way that it did? Or did you think maybe it might have been more competitive? I thought it would be more competitive. Honestly, I thought that the only reason why, a big part of the reason, I can't say the only reason why, but a big part of the reason why Benavidez lost the first fight was because of the headbutt.

You know, that headbutt in the first fight of Benavidez, you know, to me, it looked as if like that kind of threw him off, and then that finishing shot from Figueiredo was the icing on the cake. But after seeing that second fight, you know, it was just complete control from start to finish and just a great selection of shot, you know, punches, and just, you know, complete total smartness in there when it came to fighting a guy as dangerous as Benavidez

and not getting caught with something as he went in for the finish. All right, so let's talk about Devis and Figueiredo. If you only saw the—I mean, he's obviously got a bunch of good wins over Pantoja and some other folks, but if you had only ever seen the Benavidez fights, I feel like you could walk away with a few conclusions, Rashad. One would be physically strong, like very, very strong for the weight class, well-rounded. But the big thing, and I think you alluded to it earlier, was he's got real one-punch knockout power, which is just hard to have in any weight class. Very unheard of for flyweight, right? Absolutely. You know, I think the biggest thing, the reason why he's able to land those punches the way he does is because the kind of punches that he throws he kind of throws like a shovel uppercut hook type of mix you know type of

uh transitional punch is really hard to describe but you know it comes from an angle where his opponents doesn't see it and at the same time he has a really good way of pulling his opponents in with his in out ability you know and those guys try to corner him, and pretty soon they don't realize that he just put them in a trap, and then he comes with those punches at odd angles, and then not only does he only come with one punch, but he comes with consecutive punches, and those consecutive punches, at least one of them, find their mark with devastating fashion.

And on the ground, I mean, I don't feel like, you know, if you fight at light heavyweight and you go against Glover Teixeira, yeah, you need to have some good ground defense, maybe some good ground offense as well. But like in general, I don't know how necessary it is fight to fight to be worrying about that. I'm sure they train it, but I'm just saying how often does it end up there where it's a really important consideration?

You know, it's important, but at flyweight, it's like absolutely critical because the transitions are crazy. The scrambles are crazy. And this dude, Devin Figur, has very good control as well, right? So he's a bit of a combo there. He's got big punches. And then on top of it, on the ground, good finisher, you know, good at taking the back and maintaining position on the ground as well.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the way that he is just so fluid and transitional and all the grappling exchanges, you know, it just allows him to throw punches with reckless abandon. You know, when you're not worried about getting taken down because you have the ability to scramble to your feet or cause a guy to be in a scramble position that he doesn't want to be in, then you have complete, you know, just, just autonomy just to throw whatever you want on your feet. And you see him throw that you see see him with the confidence in his stand-up. Sometimes his hand is not even responsibly put over his head.

They're kind of by his side, but he's walking in. And the way he's walking in and shifting his weight from side to side, it makes it a hard, elusive target hit. And at the same time, he has a lot of power with those punches if they catch you. All right. So the other issue, though, is weight. Before we talk about Alex Perez, Davidson Figueredo has missed weight. In fact, he had to fight Benavidez twice

because he missed it the first time. Now you would imagine being a UFC champion at this point, you would have somebody in control of this kind of process. So you could streamline it. Do you have any concerns he would miss weight again? You know, I think that first time it was a very sore reminder. And, you know, he had that, you know, he promised his grandfather he'll come home with the belt and then he didn't come home with the belt because he missed weight. So I think that may be enough to kind of scare him to get his weight under control. But at the same time, he is a bigger 125 pounder. You know, he's a taller guy and he's lean as all, you know, he's super lean. So a guy that with that kind of build, it can be really tough for him to make the weight.

And you see that he has a power of a 135 pounder. So he might just be technically speaking, a 135 pounder if he allowed himself to really be in his normal weight. So, you know, it's really hard to say. I think this fight right here and how he makes the weight and how he looks on the scale this weekend will determine, you know, is he too big for this weight class and is the scale is going to be a consistent problem for him. All right. So let's talk about Alex Perez. One story that no one talks about in modern MMA that to my satisfaction, I should say say is that Colin Oyama has been a successful trainer for basically like the MMA version of generations right he was training

Rampage and before that as well have you ever like talked to Colin Oyama have you ever like even even for just a a pad session have you ever worked with him because to me Rashad he seems like there are a lot of coaches who can do a lot of different things, right? He seems like one of these guys who can take raw material and then get the best out of them and that developmental process. I think you had that with Alex Perez. I think so too. You know, one thing about Oyama, I never got a chance to work with him, but I worked alongside of people who got a chance to work with him closely and they all say the same thing. You know, he's, he's one of those coaches who teaches the fighter how to bring out the best in them. He's not one of those guys who have a system and try to get the guys to go into the system. You see that a lot

with a lot of different head coaches. They want a guy to fight in a certain kind of system, but he's very good at just seeing what the guy does really well and then adapting his style or adapting a style to that to make that style that much more potent. So he has a really good coach in that respect. You know, that's not going to change the way that he fights, but only just enhance the way that he fights. But you see that the improvements on Perez, I mean, the one thing that really impresses me about Perez that, that really, you know, that, that really, I guess, sheds light on the fact that he's the first contender guy to be put into a championship title fight situation is the fact when he throws his punches, his transitions are

so smooth to his takedowns. And then when he gets down on the ground, his transitions from his jujitsu, they're so smooth and they're just so fast. And when you're going at the 125 weight class, it's all about the transitions. We watched Demetrius Johnson destroy the weight class for years, and he primarily did it not because he was the best technically speaking, but I think because he had some of the best transitions in the game. All right, so let's talk about his game here just a little bit, speaking of Alex Perez. Let's start with the last fight he had over Formiga

with the devastating leg kicks. A new wrinkle in his game i mean he had thrown them before rashad but he actually put away a top contender formiga has a win by the way over the rating champion figueredo several fights ago but nevertheless he does have one and those were just absolutely devastating what i loved about it was not just how effective they were but the reason why they were effective which was you know this too rashad you see a lot of guys fight they'll rock a guy and then they'll go for a takedown. It's like, dude, keep doing what's working.

Well, he did. And he got a tremendous result from it. Yeah. And that, and like you said, you know, he did what was continuous work and show that shows that he has that fight IQ, but more importantly, it shows that he's getting the confidence in his standup in areas. That's not typically speaking of a wrestler, you know, getting those leg kicks going and out kicking somebody like Figueredo with the experience that he has and being able to bring that kind of victory to that fight, you know, being able to

do that kind of thing against an opponent like Figueredo is a huge confidence booster when you have to fight somebody in Davidson that he's going to have to really you know believe in those kicks believe in those punches and move forward uh by the way do you ever wish that the calf kick was a bigger part of mma when you were competing in it i mean it was a part but now it's like the kick it's the kick of all kicks do you ever think about that yeah i think about that man especially when i'm taking them. You know, you know, when I took when I fought Anthony Smith, I was he threw a leg. He threw one of those calf kicks and I got kicked in practice.

But when he threw a leg kick, that calf kick, it just kind of changed my thinking for a split second. You know, it's very rare in a fight that you feel pain. And that's one thing that this kick does. It makes you feel pain right away. And it's not something that you can walk off. When you feel that kind of pain, it makes you take notice. It makes you change your stance. And it makes you think, okay, I need to get this guy in close quarters or make a mistake. And also, as I understand it, it's actually good for people who want to keep distance too, because you can do it. And versus if you're hitting them on the it, it's actually good for people who want to keep distance, too, because you can do it.

And versus if you're hitting them on the thigh, you can actually stay a little bit further away, which gives you some more options. Right. Absolutely. And it's such a good it's such a hard thing to time. You know, the thing in MMA is like this. If I can hit you in some kind of way and take little as damage as possible. If I do that more, more than you do that then i'm going to win the fight and that's what that kick does it offers the opponent an opportunity to land something and not put himself at too much danger but have maximum impact for damage pretty amazing okay but before that he actually had two nice wins he had some submission finishes alex perez wrestled in college as we know uh not some super high level. He wasn't Ed Ruth, but still, you know, he accomplished that

and has turned that into a guy where I love. This is one of the benefits of the flyweights, right, Rashad, which is you can get these guys who have good wrestling and they've got good scrambling, and they can just bite on a guillotine very quickly or use the transition to lock up the anaconda, which he likes to do. He's pretty gifted at finding that moment to just, you know, he doesn't, he doesn't lay you flat on your back, pass the side, go to mount, wait for you to turn slowly hand fight to get the choke in like a, almost like a Demian

Maya style. He just latches on like a gator and then finds a way to go from there. Yeah. And that's, and like you said it, you know, I think the biggest, you know, part of him being so successful is the fact that he does those transitions so well. And he does those transitions so well, primarily speaking, just because the fact that he knows that, you know, in these transitions is the biggest opportunity for the guy to make the mistakes. So he looks to try to get in a scramble position because he he is anticipating what the guy is going to do. Guys that have this ability to scramble, they drill for hours and hours and do a lot of Randori, so they understand where the body is going to move. They

understand where the body is going to flow, and that way they can anticipate it. So they love to get in these scramble matches where it's like I look like or I may seem like I don't know what move is next, but he already has it memorized. Body memorizations through Randori, through light sparring, through light training, gets that muscle memory.

So you know what to do when it's time to do it. Last thing on this, we'll go over a couple of the numbers here. I'll go to the odds in just a second. I don't know if you know this. I didn't know this. The average fight time for Figueredo is nine minutes and 44 seconds. For Perez, it's basically seven minutes. So both of these guys on average don't go longer than two rounds.

Keep that in mind. Three inch reach advantage for Deverson Figueredo, 68 to 65. Rashad, this is what I want you to weigh on here a little bit. For the grappling, this is kind of funny. Takedowns per 15 minutes, right? So this is how much, on average, you might get after a three-round fight. You got three takedowns for Alex Perez. You only got like one and a half for Figueredo, but this is the bigger one.

Takedown defense. 87% for Perez, 61 half for Figueredo, but this is the bigger one. Takedown defense, 87% for Perez, 61% for Figueredo. Are you surprised by those numbers? Yeah, I really am. I thought that Figueredo would be harder to take down, but at the same time, it just kind of shows the level of Alex Perez and where he's at and why he's in this position. He keeps the fight where he wants to keep the fight. A fighter who can determine where the fight goes nine times out of 10 wins the fight. And one thing that, you know, you see in Perez, you see a guy who's very busy, who's very busy mixing in all kind of techniques, going high to low, high to low. All of that makes it very hard to defend against.

So when you have a fighter who's coming in at you at all angles, you find yourself on your heels a lot, and that's what Perez has been able to do to a lot of his opponents. Yeah, to your point there, 4.68 strikes landed per minute for Perez, just 2.8 for Figueiredo. Last thing on this, two years ago, more or less, roughly, two years ago, Benavidez, Joseph Benavidez, beat Perez inside of a round,

took him down ground and found the whole nine yards. But it was two years ago. So I don't want to say that it doesn't matter, Rashad, but I guess I would be asking, okay, well, how much can we take away from that relative to this upcoming matchup? Yeah, I mean, you have to give it some kind of credibility because, you know, it did happen, right? But you're also looking at the fact that, you know, that was a fight that helped mature Perez into being what we see today, you know?

And with that said, I do believe that, you know, there is the ability for something like that to happen, but at the same time, I do believe that that was probably something that stayed in Perez's mind and was a cornerstone of why we see him in the positions that he is in right now. It takes getting dominated in some area at some point in your career in order to be like, okay, now I need to work on this, and then you become obsessed about working about it, and then it never happens again. Do you have one of those moments? Yeah, I have a few of those moments. I have a few of those moments. It was when I fought Sean Sandman. For some reason, I thought that my ability to neutralize position and get back up to

my feet was a lot better than what it was. in that fight I got so frustrated because it was really hard for me to get up and I was like stuck on my back and uh it showed me that I had a lot more work to do on the ground yeah well you also uh sent him to the land of wind and ghost I was in my basement in uh in here in this house when I had first moved in here watching that fight on my television and I yelled so loud, my neighbors knocked on my door wondering if I had a home invasion. I was like, no. Rashad Evans just knocked Sean Salmon the fuck out. That's all.

Real quickly, a minus 310 for Devis and Figueredo, a plus 250. But yes, Rashad, you have created many fun memories for me as an observer. I will tell you that. Alright, so let's go to the co-main event. This is funny, right? I'm going to put the odds first because I feel like the story kind of starts there if we can. Look at these numbers. Minus 1,200 for Valentina Shevchenko against Jennifer Maya plus 750.

You know, on the show, Rashad, BC and I cover a lot of MMA, but we cover boxing as well. And you notice that the odds are very different. Not just because sometimes you don't get the best fight and the best, but even cover boxing as well. And you notice that the odds are very different, not just because sometimes you don't get the best fight and the best, but even when you do, you know, boxing is not quite as unpredictable as MMA. So for example, we just had Lomachenko fighting Lopez and Lopez came in, although he won, he came in at about a plus four or 500, which is a pretty big underdog by, um, by MMA standards. But I have to say this. Valentina Shevchenko, every time she's up,

I don't think I've seen a fighter defending a UFC title who is consistently over minus 1,000 going into these matchups. She just seems to be so far ahead of her peers, yes? Oh, absolutely, absolutely. And I say the reason why she's so ahead of her peers yes oh absolutely absolutely and i say the reason why she's so ahead of her peers is when you look at her lifestyle you sit down and you hear her interviews and anything that she does you know she has made fighting her life there's no boyfriend there's nothing else but fighting she lives on the road she trains every single day her coach is available

to her all the time and that's another thing too there There's so many MMA camps and there's so many ways that people train, but I really feel that it's the one-on-one that really makes the difference in an athlete's career. I mean, it's great to be able to go to a team and have that kind of training to be able to get the bodies. But at some point, when you reach a certain level, you need to have the one-on-one. You need to have the coaches around you making sure that you're getting every single game, every single part of your game tuned up if it needs to be tuned up or just staying sharp as it needs to be. But that's one thing that Shevchenko has, and I think that's why we see her as champion. Yeah.

I mean, I'm not sure where to go with the descriptions on her because it's not that you can say she's flawless, right? Every fighter has weaknesses and I think she has identifiable weaknesses but it's the thing it's like okay let's go down the list of contenders show me the person on this list who you think is got the magic formula to take advantage of her weaknesses and that's where the rubber begins to meet the road because as talented as Jennifer Maya is and we'll get to her in just a second, the weaknesses that Valentina Shevchenko has, one, they're getting smaller and smaller, and two, her advantages in the other forms of the game and her ability to keep it there are incredible. So let's talk about the stand-up for just a second. If I had to ask you to describe

it, but imagine I had never seen it, what would you say about it man first i would say it's devastating but then i'll describe why am i saying it's devastating because the fact that her punch her kick selection is just absolutely phenomenal she knows exactly where to attack the opponent and she has very good eyes her eyes to me is one of the key things that separates her from a lot of the other fighters because what she does is that she's able to see her opponent come in and she doesn't have a lot of movement with her hand, just regular movement. What she does, she keeps them in place and then she's ready to fire at all times. And the fact that she's ready to fire, it gives her the advantage because when she's ready to go after she counters,

she's going with two or three strikes, and it's almost impossible for her opponent to even recognize what she's doing because she's so far ahead of her. But the intelligence with the strikes, to me, is what makes her head and shoulders above the rest. There's only a few fighters in the UFC who do this very well. I mean, some try it, but I'm talking about the ones who can consistently do it.

Her, Stylebender, and then this new dude out of Tiger Muay Thai, Rafael Fazaev, where they do the lean. They don't move their feet. They stay in range, but they know how to get just out of the way. I don't mean like slipping. I mean like the real big matrix-like leans. So she's able to put put that pressure get that range and then stay out of the way if she has to move her feet she can but she also has that lean

she's no one talks about this i saw her in person you think you were there too when we were there for mayweather mcgregor she was making the media rounds she has a bullet necklace an actual bullet as a necklace and you shake her hand and you know you ever shake i mean you're a real athlete but for an ordinary normal person like me even you know i'm a big dude i shook her hand you could just feel the tension in her hand man like she's a real deal athlete she's not just smart and i feel like that shouldn't get lost in the equation either nah she she is a real deal athlete you know she takes it super serious i mean, her mindset around competing is super solid. You know, not only does she have it physically, but like you said, mentally speaking,

she makes sure she takes a mental inventory. She's very, um, very, very present and why she's champion. And by that, I mean, you know, she's not scattered about trying to do other things. She knows that she's a UFC champion. She's focused on being a UFC champion and she doesn't care about anything else but staying training and focusing on that title. And I think because she's done that, you've watched her grow leaps and bounds in other areas in the game where you typically wouldn't think that she would be successful. Her grappling has become amazing. Her clinch work is next level as well too. And she just keeps on adding these little nuances that keeps on separating her from the pack. Yeah. I mean, she has the takedowns now, right? We saw them a few times, especially in the, uh, the fight with, uh, uh, you want to

get in J check, um, good, good sweeps, foot sweeps from the clinch. Um, she can get on top, she can do damage there. So she's pretty interesting. So let's talk about her opponent and Jennifer Maya. Uh, okay. Speaking of missing weight, this has happened to her multiple times. So I'll ask the same question. You think she botches this one? I mean, it's the biggest opportunity of your career. It doesn't happen that often, but I've seen it happen. You know, I hope that she don't botch it, but I can see her botching it. You know, she does carry a little bit of extra weight around her. And it seems it's like something that she's been, you know,

trying to struggle with a little bit, but been able to get a hold of. But, you know, it would be very unfortunate. You know, she wanted this title shot and, you know, going back home to Brazil. It was icing on the cake after beating Joanne Calderwood. So I'm sure she's been looking and anticipating this and just getting her weight right. But, I mean, she's been looking and anticipating this and just getting her weight right. But I mean, she's got her work cut out for her. Let's be honest. She's got her work cut out for her. Can you imagine if you actually missed weight and then you beat Valentina Shevchenko

and the prize is you have to do it again? I think at that point you just say, you know what? I'm good, man. I'm good. I mean, cause you know what it is. Okay. All right. But let's talk about her skills on the ground. Cause you mentioned Joanne Calderwood. She's legit.

She has good arm bars off of her back. She has a good guard in general. I feel like she has a pretty decent ability to protect herself underneath risk control, overhooks, puts her feet on the hips, like has good mobility underneath. That might be actually kind of important in certain segments of the fight anyway. I totally agree. I think that she's going to have to be active on the ground. And that's one thing that, you know, you see a lot of girls when they get taken down. Some are just not that active as far as like making a threat or making

the person on top work consistently and making them the person on top. When they get on top, they don't have just a chance to rest. They're working. So I like the way how busy she is on the ground, but she can maybe catch Shevchenko in something if Shevchenko gets a little bit sloppy, but she's going to have to find that in transition, find that in opportunities. But that only comes when you get your body moving off the ground, when you're trying to go here, when you're trying to go there. If she gets stuck and get playing on the ground, then it's going to be a rough night for her. I don't ask this question normally, but I do think it's at least worth asking in this case, Rashad. Let's say you're cornering Jennifer Maya.

She's three rounds down, not getting beat up too badly, but just not making anything happen. Fourth round, would you recommend for her getting a clinch and pulling guard? Yeah, I would. If I would, I would do that just because I know that, um, she has the ability to try to create, to create things. You know what she did with what we're called the wood, all those different transitions. And you wouldn't really typically expect that from her because with her shoot box background, you would think that she's trying to go for the stand up. She has a very aggressive stand up at that as well. But, you know, her transitions on the ground can can be some trouble, you know, and it can you know forward her

some opportunities to be in position to take advantage of a Shevchenko she gets herself in a vulnerable position but I think more important than what she's done on the ground she showed that she has that ability I think it's all what she does on her feet okay so let's talk about that it's a it question to be like, well, what will happen? What won't happen? Let's ask it a bit of a different way, which is what would you say is Jennifer Maya's principal task on the feet? What does she have to do to put a lot of pressure on Valentina and not allow Valentina to have the space to create, not allow Valentina to have the space to look for a clean counter. I think that she needs to make it ugly. She needs to make Valentina fight and fight from that place where she's... And when I say fight, it's different than just normally fight. Because when I say fight is different than just normally fight because when I say fight when you fight there's a

there's a bit of wildness coming out. You know what I'm saying? Because you're fighting with emotion. When you fight, you fight with emotion and when you fight with emotion technique becomes a little bit unglued even though it shouldn't but it does. She needs to bring

Valentina in that space where she has to fight and the only way you can make somebody fight is get up in their personal space make them feel uncomfortable make them get frustrated and then you have a fight on your hands how well do you think i mean we all know shevchenko is really talented but i guess what i'm saying is um okay so you're you're cornering shevchenko. You know Maya's going to pressure. What should Shevchenko be doing? Turning angles? What exactly to deal with that pressure?

Well, like you said, making angles. One thing about Maya, she has a tendency to fall forward with her punches. And when somebody has a tendency to fall forward with punches, the best thing to do is kind of move out of the way and let them fall on their own sword. But before they fall on their own sword, slide out the way, hit a punch and transition, maybe an uppercut, maybe a hook, something they don't see, but make them have to, at one point, once you reset your feet, they're going to have to reset their feet in order to square up with you. And then that point you can take punches, you can start to hit them. So I think if she's going to come forward reset their feet in order to square up with you. And then that point you can take punches. You can start to hit them.

So I think if she's going to come forward with that blitzing style, Shevchenko has to get angles. And more importantly, she has to use a little bit of footwork. When somebody is coming to bring a lot of pressure, you have to use your fakes and faints, your fakes and faints in order to freeze them. If she freezes Maya, then she's going to gain that leverage to be able to land those counter shots that she likes to hit. Fair enough. All right, so with that in mind, let's quickly go through the rest of this card.

Obviously, the main event is for the men's flyweight title, the co-main event for the women's flyweight title. Those will both be five-round affairs. The rest of these are all three-round affairs. So let's go through them a little bit more quickly. The first of them, Rashad, Mike Perry taking on Tim Means. Boy, this is a hell of a fight, huh? They got Mike Perry at minus 140, Tim Means at about plus 120 or so. I sort of understand that. I mean, Tim Means is one of these guys out of Albuquerque, you know. I mean, he's

been fighting since you were fighting, like just one of these old junkyard dogs. He can kind of do it all, right? Vicious elbows against Mike Perry, who is one of these old junkyard dogs. He can kind of do it all, right? Vicious elbows against Mike Perry, who is one of these guys to me who is just a total natural-born fighter, but I don't know if he's honed that ability to the best extent. Seems like he has a lot of issues outside of the cage

that he has to deal with. So to me, it's a little bit more of lanky, strategic guy, maybe a little bit of miles on him versus younger but powerhouse but maybe somewhat unrefined do you see it in a similar way i see an exact similar way i think you you put it crystal clear um i couldn't agree with you more you know what tim means he's he's he's very durable like a great fight iq but he's an older guy and he has been in those wars and he can't take the punishment that if Mike Perry, if he's clicking and he's functioning, he's there, he's not going to be able to take those punches that Mike Perry can deliver. But at the same time, what Mike Perry

are we getting? We're seeing a Mike Perry that has been just kind of spread thin just on a personal aspect of his life. And who knows what's really going on there and who knows how much of that he's bringing in the octagon. And, you know, as a fighter who's brought things into the octagon, that is the last thing. That's the last place you want to bring anything. So if your mind is not on your fighting and it's somewhere else, I don't care if the guy is a can, you will lose that fight. So this fight to me just hinges on, you know, how clear Mike Perry is. You know, he's got the great Latore in his corner, once again, coaching him. So maybe he'll get another W, but I mean, she's a pregnant Latore and who knows what that is bringing to the equation because my

wife is pregnant and pregnant women are hard to deal with. Yeah. Tell me about it. I have my first kid. I understand it. About that too. If you had a fighter who was telling you, pregnant or otherwise, be like, yeah, I'm going to have my girlfriend in my corner.

I just, I want it to be that way. Now, granted, he was fighting Mickey Gall, which he was, I'm not going to say supposed to win, but favored him. What would you even say? Because it's one thing for me to be like, I don't know, from the outside looking in, that's not what the best fighters I know do. But you've been in the locker room with these guys. What would you even say to somebody like that?

I'll tell him he's out of his mind, straight up. I'll tell him he's out of his mind. I would, man. I really would. Because here's the reality of the situation. She may be able to say this, this, that and the other. But let's be honest, she's she's not she's in over her head when it comes to being able to tell him things that he needs to do, being able to understand what she's looking at and seeing, you know,

and you need to have a coach who can compute things really fast and deliver a message that you need to hear from the outside looking in when you're in that cage. And, you know, I don't see anything in Tori's background that suggests to me that she's able to do that. I think what she does for him is that she makes him feel good. And for him, feeling good is more important than the information, because he from from the people that I know that cornered him, he doesn't really listen to his corners anyways. So, so for him, he's kind of like, I just got the ultimate support person in the corner with me. But here's another thing. Like you said, in the beginning of all this,

there's a level that he still is yet to hit. If he's a great fighter, he's going to, you know, he's bringing some entertaining fights. But I truly believe with Mike Perry's power and sometimes with his fight acumen, I think he could be a lot more than what he's allowed himself to become. Agreed, agreed.

And plus that natural toughness too, where they got his face rearranged. Yeah, oh yeah. Kind of like, yeah, I'm cool with it. I mean, he's got a certain wiring that is hard. He's got that dog. That dog is hard to get out. All right, so we go next at plus 200.

I guess this is women's flyweight as well. Kaitlyn Chukagian, who fought the champion, did not go so well. Of course, who could say, you know, it's a tough job. Taking on, I guess, the other sort of top-ish contender in this division, Cynthia Calvillo or Calvillo at minus 240. This is an interesting one. We know what Chukagian's got, right? She has a bit of a ground game. It would not be fair to say she doesn't. We've seen some of it recently. But really what she's known for is that Mark Henry, you know, stick and move, jab kind of game.

And Cynthia is a little bit different, right? Because she came in storming the UFC off of back takes from, you know, Gator rolls and all kinds of other crazy stuff she was doing and has tried to like round out her game. I wonder if it's made her a little less potent. I don't know. How do you, how do you size these two up Rashad? Well, I think that, you know, Cynthia, you know, since moving to Vegas, I got a chance to talk to her and just, you know, about her training and what she wanted to do. And, you know, she she seems to be in the mix of making that next transition as far as like, you know, what we see out of her. You know, from what I've seen when I was there in Vegas, you know, her training was phenomenal. Her understanding of what she was trying to achieve and why she was trying to achieve it was phenomenal as well, too.

So it seems like she's got the roadmap down and it seems to me that she knows how to fight her best style and knows what the division is missing. It knows how to be that person to fill that in the division. And now being at 125, it allows her to grow into her full size, her full strength without worrying about cutting weight. So I think that's something else that adds to this next level that we're seeing at 125 here from her. In terms of the stand up, how do you get around the jab of somebody like Chukagian? Well, you make them jab you, you make them jab you and then you make them pay but you make them pay with fakes and faints you make them pay by putting them on the ground you make them pay by giving them nothing off of that jab but you have to move forward you have to move forward if if Cynthia is a wrestler a wrestler can't be on their heels a wrestler has to be moving forward

because it's from the forward pressure with throwing my hands. I get you to throw back or react in some kind of way where you put your hands up and then the wrestler is supposed to shoot underneath at that time. That's what Cynthia has to do in her game. So if Caitlin is throwing a jab at her, she's going to have to slip it. She's going to have to throw a punch when she throws a punch and then go underneath. But there's going to she's going to have to make Caitlin feel very uncomfortable with throwing anything with their hands without at least throwing. See, when you go against a wrestler, you almost have to do a fake or faint before you throw a punch, because they're looking to anticipate either going under or trying to make you miss so they can get into a clinch situation.

So you almost have to shake it out just so you see how they react. And then you go with what you intend to. And that's how you have more success on a wrestler. And that's what Kaitlyn has to do. One last thing on this, and we'll talk about the last fight. You had mentioned Cynthia had switched from AKA to then into Vegas. And obviously, you famously made a team switch. How long did it take in making that switch down to South Florida

before you felt like you were getting the most out of the experience? It took a while. But one thing that helped me with my transition was the fact that I didn't come to a team where I had to adjust to a coach. I was there with Mike Van Arsdale and Mike Van Arsdale was my coach. And we transitioned in that place together. It was more of like a personal transition for me. And also when I started working with some of the different Dutch kickboxers, they had a different style of kickboxing that I've never done before. So that took me a little bit of adjusting to do.

But what you have to do in situations like that is like what I would do when I would go travel around to different camps. You have to take what you want and just leave some of the stuff behind. You're not going to be able to implement everything, but you have to be able to know enough of what's best for you as a fighter and your fighting style. See, a lot of fighters who go to a different camp and get influenced and lose a step and not do what they used to do, they're searching for their fight identity. They're searching for their true mastery at that level. But if you have your true mastery at that level and you know where you're best at, then you know that you can just add a little bit from here and there and that that will make the biggest difference, but at the same time, taking over and changing your whole game.

Last but not least, a gentleman who we all know quite well, a plus 145 Shogun Hua. Can you believe he's still competing? I can't believe it. I mean- Can you believe that he's 38 years old? How is he only 38 years old? Come on, man. You you know it's funny like there are often two arguments for why someone should retire right one is if they you know they can't take a punch

anymore like they get hit with something and then remember chuck ledale against like rich franklin it was just you know it was just over right you're like okay i mean maybe this is time to call it a day but there's a different kind where yes you, you know, the miles have added up, but they're still capable of beating good guys. But you just wonder, like, how much abuse is enough. Man, Shogun Hua has taken enough for the entire country of Brazil, and he's still going. I frankly don't know if it's advisable for him to keep competing,

but here he is against Paul Craig, which is a rematch because they had a draw before first of all I mean what can we even say about Shogun beyond this uh at 38 who is he still you know at 38 Shogun is still very dangerous because he has that switch and that switch will bring the dog out in him. And once that dog is ignited, he is he's insane. He's he's hard to stop, but he's very chinny right now. He he's not very he's not a very busy fighter. He, you know, doesn't physically have the ability to impose his will on a physical basis. So he's still dangerous, but at the same time, he's a very beatable fighter. But if you go into this fight thinking it's going to be easy, then you're going to have a hard fight on your hands. And I think Paul Craig figured that out

the first time. You have Shogun, he's an older guy, but he's not finished. He's not finished. Paul Craig is a weirdo, huh? This guy's amazing. I interviewed him. He's out of Scotland. How many light heavyweights do you know where you're like, okay, what's he like? What is the way in which this guy just wins fights? And the answer is the guard. I mean, you can't say that hardly about anyone in all of MMA, much less that light heavyweight. He is a bit of a unicorn, huh? He dang sure is. It's really rare to see. It's kind of like a throwback in MMA when you see a guy who does work like he does in his guard so effectively. But it's one of those things. When we see success with MMA, it's because someone has a little nuance that the rest of everybody else hasn't figured out. What he's figured out is

something that people have forgotten about, the fact that you can do great work off your back. And he does that. When he gets guys on top of him, he makes them work. And a lot of times guys are not ready for that work. They're not expecting it. And they really don't understand that these transitions from the ground position is really going to get him out of there because you really don't see it happening. You're like, man, when I see guys do the ground work, I'm like, all right, I'm going to let him move around here. I'm going to stay here like this, but he's going to get tired.

And when I get enough breath, I'm going to bring it back up to my feet. But with Paul Craig, that could be a mistake. So what's the task for each guy here? On the one hand, Shogun Hua, long in the tooth, but still can punch your lights out. And if you're Paul Craig, yes, your guard is good. But do you want to rely on it again? So how would you advise each of them to approach this strategically? I would tell Paul Craig to be the bigger fighter.

He's got a frame on him that I think he can impose on on shogun he's you know he's got that he's strong he's got that wiry strength now with that strong wiry strength you know he can put a lot of pressure on him but at the same time he can land some clean shots so i think that the the game plan is simple for paul craig you know be physical with Shogun in the clinch, but also at the same time, use your reach, use your jab to land those shots. Shogun has a hard cover up. He blinds himself. So allow him to blind himself. A lot of fakes and faints to keep covering himself up and then go to town. I used to love when a guy used to go like this because I was like, oh, that's great. He's already making himself two or three steps behind. Utilize that. A young Shogun can go like this and then he'll be able to still

find his rhythm and find you if he catches you slipping. But an older Shogun, he can't blind himself and then still find you. He blinds himself. You need to go out for the finish. Now with Shogun, what he needs to do is he needs to make it a dogfight. He needs to go out there and just get in Paul Craig's chest and let the wildness go. Because there he'll find Paul Craig making a mistake. And that's when his experience can take over. Fair enough. Well, there you have it. 10 p.m. in the east is when UFC 255 gets going at the UFC Apex facility.

Of course, that's still be the main card. But before that, I think you have a prelim card and even a fight pass card before that. Rashad, always good to catch up with you. Really appreciate your picks. And we'll do this again. But until then, enjoy the fights, my friend. All right, my man.

Take care. you