MORNING KOMBAT WITH LUKE THOMAS AND BRIAN CAMPBELL - WAS JORGE MASVIDAL'S 5 SECOND KO OF BEN ASKREN THE BEST EVER?

Episode Date: July 8, 2019

The first episode of Morning Combat is FIRE! Luke and Brian discuss where Jorge Masvidal's amazing 5 second KO of Ben Askren fits on the list of greatest moments in UFC history! They also break down UFC 239, including performances by the GOAT's, Amanda Nunes and Jon Jones. Catch Morning Combat LIVE every Monday at 12pm eastern at https://bit.ly/2XyOJNF Get More BELOW THE BELT with Brendan Schaub: Follow: https://twitter.com/btbshowtime Like: https://www.facebook.com/BelowTheBeltSHO Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/belowthebelt/ Get more SHOWTIME: Website: http://www.sho.com/sho/home Follow: https://twitter.com/SHO_Network Like: https://www.facebook.com/showtime Instagram: https://instagram.com/showtime/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

All right, it is Monday, July 8th, 2019. Welcome to the first episode of Morning Combat. My name is Luke Thomas. I am the host of this program, along with my trusty Steve in Padawan. This is Brian Campbell. I'm a Padawan, but you know, I like to start off on an equal plane here. You can be like Anakin Skywalker. You can be on the Jedi Council, but you don't get the title of Master. And I will turn on you just like him. All right, here we go.

And we are in a van down by the river, if you can judge by the set here. So we appreciate you guys tuning in. What is Morning Combat? Well, we are going to be starting off your week the right way. This is going to be your water cooler moment. This is going to be two experienced media pros, albeit two jabronis. Nevertheless, we're going to get you guys a perspective that I don't think it's going to come with digestion after all the weekend's fights. It's going to come with a little bit of, obviously, media savvy from having years of cover this. It's going to be your first moment to start your week off the right way talking about things in a candid, truthful way, which, by the way, a lot of people in MMA

media don't want to do. We will do that. And by the way, we'll bring truth. No holds barred, too, by the way. By the way, not just media. We'll talk about some boxing stuff as well. If you're just if you're just joining us, I just put out the announcement 30 nanoseconds ago on Twitter. I haven't gotten to all the details yet, so I'll just say this very quickly. Yes, I am now with Showtime. I'm in the Showtime family. I'm very excited about it, a little bit nervous about it, especially since they kidnapped us and put us in some kind of a dungeon.

I know. When I got in, I hooked the left. I think it was 2-1 and Lewis. The brothers were shooting dice. I was like, let's do this. This is really, I was looking for a step up. I don't know if I made the right call. We're going to find out here, Brian. In all seriousness, I was looking for a step up. I don't know if I made the right call. We're going to find out here, Brian. We're going to see. But in all seriousness, I'm actually incredibly excited.

I was looking for the right kind of opportunity for the next stage of my career, and I couldn't imagine doing it at any other place other than Showtime. And I'm below the belt with Brendan Schaub here on his channel and so forth. Lots more stuff coming. This is just the very first day. We're going to get some decoration here. Maybe some air conditioning. Maybe some sunlight.

Who knows? But there will be a lot of stuff coming. This is big news for you, though. Congratulations. It is big news. It is big news. I'm actually really excited about it. I've been sitting on it for a little bit.

And, yeah. Yeah. By the way, quick thanks, if we can, just to get the show started, to a lot of people involved at Showtime. No man more so than Mr. Brendan Schaub. He has been a believer in my work and a believer in me, and it's been a thrill to get his support. So thank you. I really appreciate it. Also, come back from vacation, slacker. Okay. All right. You ready, sir? I'm ready, bro. Let's do it. Living life without fear. You putting five carrots in your baby girl's ear? I certainly am. Let's get it going

here. UFC 239 happened over the weekend. You were there. I was, put it in my veins, brother. I mean, I've been to two cards this year. Atlanta for the Gastelum Adesanya love fest. And now this one. Wow. What a time to be alive. So let's talk about it. Now, normally what people might do is they might start with the main event. I do not wish to do that today, Brian Campbell. It wasn't that it wasn't impactful. It wasn't that there's nothing to discuss about it. We will get to it.

But, dude, let's just start where the show starts. Jorge Masvidal, what an incredible performance that he had against Ben Askren, winning at five seconds. You were there cage side very, very quickly. Just tell me me can you can you give the listeners of the viewers here any kind of sense of what the atmosphere was like not after the knee landed knee lands two extra shots and then he's taunting what is the feeling inside the t-mobile that ish craziness is really where you're going on the same night that the

greatest of all time on the male and female side were in the biggest card of the year this beloved backyard brawler wins the night with really like one of the most iconic moments. Dana White called the most iconic, one of the most absurd, ridiculous, from the standpoint of middle finger FUs and the meme generation that we're in right now, the troll generation,

this was the ultimate something that would happen outside of the ring. Something that would happen at your job, at your schoolyard moment, but yet it happened in the UFC cage on the biggest night of the year. So the question we want to sort of tackle to start is, where does that rank as an all-time UFC moment? Let me go back to an interview that Lorenzo Fertitta did with The Atlantic magazine many, many years ago.

He was still with the company at the time. Let's say, I could be wrong about this, let's say circa 2011, 2012, somewhere in there. The year is irrelevant because the point he made was the one that has stuck with me all this time. When he talked about what made MMA special, and really, he was not talking about their competitors. He was talking about the UFC, although it does extend beyond the UFC brand. But when you get the high-stakes nature of, you know, we'll talk about it in just a second, whether or not the winner of this fight gets a title shot. He made a claim that I thought was the best approximation of understanding what makes a UFC moment.

And the answer is, if after it happens, you're yelling, oh shit. Did it have an oh shit moment? And there is absolutely no denying. People were texting me. The crowd went crazy. Look at how many videos were made on YouTube. Social media was set ablaze with all of the, merely the repetition of the five seconds,

but then also everyone remixing the video for their own purposes, whether to taunt Ben or to promote Jorge. Then Jorge afterwards has his own moments at the press conference where he just doubles down on that. What's another indication you had a UFC moment? If it gives life to other subsequent moments, which this absolutely did. And the last thing I think I would say, Brian Campbell, about this

in assessing it is I went back and I looked at different rankings that folks had, just individual rankings, what made their top UFC moments. You can and you should include submissions in there. Chael Sonnen getting submitted by Anderson Silva. Hi, Chael. We worked it out. We're friends now.

It's okay. I'm simply pointing out an important moment. Even, how about this? Brock Lesnar submitting Shane Carwin. Yes. However, the majority of the time, it comes from a thrilling knockout shot, whether it's a head kick or a punch. This checked all the boxes.

So what you're saying is when UFC retools that Bob O'Reilly theme song highlight package they do before the start of the main card. How do you not put that? It's the fastest KO in UFC history. How does it not go in there? I mean, what is the peak moment in that song? They're using right now, is it Matt Hughes' slam on Frank Trigg, or is it Holly Holmes' head kick to Rousey?

I have to think. Like, the peak moment of that. You might have your new moment. This is the equivalent of, like, a walk-off Grand Slam, a full-court buzzer beater, and a world star moment, all encapsulated into one. And you know what it ultimately created? You know what the best thing this did?

It created the Conor culture superstar. It really did. Jorge Masvidal now has the potential. He doesn't do the kind of antagonism that Conor does. He's the antidote. You know what he is? Well, you know why he made it? No, no, no.

Here's what he is. He's the new Diaz brother. Well, that's what I was going to say. He's the name to the Conor. You kind of got in the middle of this. I'm going to say I'm in the second trimester of my point right now. All right, the head's coming. Believe me. He has an opportunity to pass the Diaz brothers right now because he's active.

He's in contention. And this might, and we'll get into it, this might elevate him to a title shot where the Diaz brothers, because of their relationship with Dana White and UFC, was never really able to capitalize on the buzz of becoming beloved. They were anti-heroes. Then they crossed over into beloved. Nate's brand went through the roof through two Conor fights, and then he doesn't fight again for three years.

Whereas Jorge Masvidal is different than Conor. You're right. The reason why he's a real counterculture superstar is because it's real. He's the realest fighter of anyone in the combat sports game right now. You know why people love combat sports, right? We love it because, well, I like it for ridiculous reasons. We already know that. You love it because you like to break it down like a sweet science, right?

Like you like to be doctor and go in front of the screen and do all the good stuff. That's great. You're hardcore. I prefer professor over doctor, but go ahead. But pay-per-views don't matter unless they cross over. And the crossover fans want something that is an extension of what they grew up with, which is an extension of a schoolyard fight, office fight. I don't know where you work in your office when there's fights.

But you know what I'm saying. Some extension of real life into the cage. It's why boxing and MMA relies on pro wrestling style promotional tools to get people into it. Jorge Masvidal is that real dude, as proven by the threeunch in the soda he hit Leon Edwards with, that it doesn't seem to be about those things inside the cage where they're selling you violence, but really it's athletes and it's businessmen coming together. The Floyd Mayweather era is all about athletes turning into businessmen and figuring out how do I make the most amount of money sometimes with the least amount of this. No, Jorge Masvidal is the backyard fighter who happened to climb the ranks of the title,

and if you talk ass about him, he's going to get up in that A. This is the biggest star-making win since Nate Diaz beat Conor. Now, I'm not saying they're equivalent. That's not the point I'm making. I'm not suggesting to you that one is now going to be the exact same size as the other. That's not the point I'm trying to make. However, coming off of that win over Darren Till, getting on the Joe Rogan experience, which, of course, amplified everything. And then, look, credit to Ben Askren. Till, getting on the Joe Rogan experience, which of course amplified everything.

And then look, credit to Ben Askren. Yes, he took the L here quite literally. However, he is helping to raise the star power of Jorge. Jorge finished the work, then goes in the press conference. I am telling you, I am telling you, that dude, we're talking about UFC moments. It's not just the knockout. It's not just the time. It's the clash of personalities.

Everyone likes to see somebody who's a braggart get shut up. And for this guy who has been toiling, I won't say in obscurity, but kind of always never breaking through, and then to break through like this, it has Nate Diaz over Conor. But it's the platform that made it. It's echoes of it all over. If this is UFC Fight Night in Boise, it's not getting that attention on ESPN+. That's right.

This was arguably the biggest pay-per-view of the year. The platform mattered. And great the year. The platform mattered. And great matchmaking. The timing mattered. The fact that he's this close to a title shot in reality mattered. He has a chance not to be a superstar, but to be combat sports' first ghetto superstar in a while, right? Coming from afar, reaching for the stars.

They're calling him Street Jesus. The game needs people who are athletes from college. The game needs St. Pierre's. The game needs all of the people who are buttoned up. You know what the game also needs? It needs dudes from the street. Dudes with attitudes, yes. Who call it like they see it, who can't cut a promo because the way they talk is a promo.

They couldn't do that other weird fiction if it tried. Jorge Masvidal is filling a gap left by the Diaz brothers. I absolutely believe that. I know Nate's coming back, and so maybe he'll recapture the throne, and he's a much bigger star, I acknowledge. But Jorge Masvidal turned a major corner. That tells you part of the reason why it's if not the all-time moment in UFC history,

certainly the biggest one in the last few years. I mean, is it the greatest knockout? Can we put some definition on that? Because when Jair Rodriguez knocked out Korean Zombie in the UFC 25 card in December, it was the timing, one second to go in the fifth round of an all-action fight. It was just sort of the perfect storm. This is an even more perfect storm.

It's the equivalent of running across the cage, throwing the first punch, and you knock the guy cold. Only it's even better because it was set up beforehand. An American top team, those videos are leaking. Dustin Poirier is on Twitter saying, this is something we actually practiced. We knew Ben might shoot to open the match. He comes out.

It was just perfection. It was perfection. Where I would rank it, I would say top three. I'd have to think more about it if I ranked it one. Plus, it's all individual criteria, but there ain't a damn thing wrong with it. Except there was, Brian, a little bit of controversy, so let's get into it. After the knockout shot

where Askren is clearly I mean, he felt like a mannequin a la Terry Edom against Edson Borboza, where you're just frozen. So this is a scary situation. To me, by the way, it was scary enough where I was surprised they didn't bring him out on the stretcher. I'm not saying that to be

lugubrious. The only comparison I'll make to it is Manny Pacquiao in the fourth one-man-one-market fight. Where for 55 seconds he's out cold and you're starting to get into that territory where like, will he ever be the same? Is it morning combat fatality? Like where are we on this right now? Right, right. So mercifully he didn't. He walked by press row.

He still didn't look great walking by press row. He has since taken to social media. He seems to be in, let's say, somewhat better spirits. And obviously, we hope he's OK physically. But I saw people saying that Jorge, A, hitting him with the two shots afterwards and then taunting him, then getting at the press conference and expressing no remorse whatsoever, was bad behavior. And I have to tell you, I found this hysterical.

Number one, just by the rule set, he was well within his right to punch Askren in the face after he had KO'd him. Maybe you could say that he should issue some restraint, but he is not obligated to. Whatever the rules are that the referee has to intervene, that's on Jason Herzog. Okay, number one. But let's talk about the other parts where he is taunting him and then he falls like a mannequin himself. And then again, at the press conference, absolutely getting after it. Was it unsportsmanlike? And the answer is, of course it was. Here are a couple of sad realities you have to face. Number one, unsportsmanlike conduct is partly what makes combat sports what it is. And yes, there can go too far where people start

getting into, where they start agitating about religions and then it gets a little bit weird and unnerving. And where you draw that line, I get is different. But here's the point I wanted to make. If you're a casual fan and you watch baseball and you're ready for the upcoming All-Star game, I get looking at the situation. All right, your piece is falling out. There we go. First time. Got it. All right.

I get looking at it and saying, I don't like seeing this. If you're just somebody from that perspective, you have a right to be turned off. If you are a Ben Askren fan, the galling hypocrisy to say that what he did was classless, and by the way, when they call him thug, definitely no racial overtones with that one, is so nakedly ridiculous and hypocritical. The reason why you like Ben Askren is one, because he's a talented welterweight, and two, because he, number one, he mocked Darren Till when he got KO'd by Jorge Masvidal, and he pokes the bear. I had him on my show previously when he joined the UFC, Brian. We went down the list, and he was, we're on Showtime, right? Desus and Mero. You like Ben

Askren because he talks wild spicy. That's why you like him. You don't get to walk it back now. This is the game that they're in. He had every right to do it. I may not like it. Sorry. Red carpet's his. Floor is his. He can have it. I think it's the most disrespectful moment in sports history. It trumps Scottie Pippen dunking on Patrick Ewing and, like, you know, getting down on his face and almost teabagging him. I mean, it's an all-time. Worse than Iverson stepping over. Tyronn Lue in the 2001 finals.

It's insane how great it was. So you nailed some of the things that are disrespectful. Absolutely. That's the point. That's on brand with Jorge Masvidal. And, like you mentioned, go back and revisit the history of Ben Askren talking trash online to Jorge Masvidal. Is it right? No.

But you know what it supports? It supports why a lot of us got into watching this in the first place. Because it's outlaw. It's renegade. It's absurd. It's still cage fighting, right? There's still a chain link fence behind these guys as they're throwing punches. Yeah, it's a sport and we can go multi-billion dollar deals

with ESPN, and we can do the corporate thing, but that's why Masvidal's hot right now, because it's a reminder of the raw, true nature of what this actually is, and you actually kind of need moments like that. Not just to make him a star from mostly unheard of to the casual fan in the past few

months, but just to kind of provide that bottom line. Like, you can't put lipstick on this pig. It's frigging cage fighting, okay? That's what it is. This was a raise the flag and celebrate cage fighting moment. I mean, that was some all-time great trolling celebration. If every fight was like this, it'd be exhausting and frankly a little bit toxic, but my thought is trying to regulate that out is just not realistic. There is a place for that in the game. If you're a Conor McGregor fan, you liked it when he was taunting Jose Aldo and talking about setting up Reebok sweatshops and then coming in on horseback and taking all military aid mails. The whole bit. That's why

you like Conor McGregor. Fair play. I get it. It's part of the game. I'm not saying I endorse it, but it's just the nature of what we're doing here to a degree. And so for all of the Frankie Edgars who are respectful, for all the Uriah Fabers who are respectful, for all the you-name-its, Arnold Allen very respectful, and Gilbert Melendez's defeat, which I was happy to see, that's one side of the game. You need flavors. There is the other side of the game. They can't all be John Fitch. And by the way, Askren himself taking to Twitter,

Heather Hardy came to his defense and saying, you know, it takes balls to step in there. He's like, eh, I kind of deserve it. Like even Ben Askren understands. He kind of boomerasted himself. And that's great. That's how it's, look, man. He knew the, you think Ben doesn't know the game he's playing?

Of course he knows the game he's playing. He knows it's high risk, high reward. If you talk that kind of nonsense and then you win, dude, you are the king of the universe. If you wear a headpiece of hair that looks like a teenager's groin, you deserve that, right? Well, here's my point. Dude, let's say he had gone and done the opposite and it was Jorge who had been knocked out that way. I'm not saying Ben would have handled it exactly the same, but what would it have done for his star power? It would have sent him into the stratosphere, man. So the downside of that,

and why people don't do it, is because if you lose, bro, you have to eat a $5 foot long S sandwich all the way through, and that's the situation he finds himself in. So I hope, obviously, he's physically okay. I hope he gets a chance to come back. Last thing on this, and we'll move to the next topic, which is the welterweight title shot. True or false, Jorge Masvidal will get the next shot at Kamaru Usman, Brian Campbell. If UFC is smart, true. If UFC is consistent with recent

booking history of taking the hot guy at the moment, of taking Darren Till, who, under no circumstances, deserved a welterweight title shot, and fast-tracked him there under the guise of maybe we got another Conor McGregor on our hands. Yes, one million percent. I don't even think you need to wait for that really good August 3rd

Colby Covington, Robbie Lawler fight. I think you tell Jorge, you're in. When Kamaru is healthy, we do it. Because it's an entertainment business first. We all know this. Let's stop trying to think that rankings or these fake interim titles matter. He's hot right now. It's like that jam. He's the hottest welter He's hot right now. It's like that jam.

He's the hottest Walter right now. Right. It's like that jam in middle school. Put that single tape cassette in. ABC, Playground, or Ayesha. Which one were you? You are old. All right.

Well, just play that song, right? Play your hits, man. Give this guy the chance. You're always one loss away from being relevant. Kamar Usman was in Vegas for fight week. Did you get a chance to talk to him? I did not. Did anybody talk to him?

Do we know what his timeline is for a return? He did some media.. Did you get a chance to talk to him? I did not. Did anybody talk to him? Do we know what his timeline is for a return? He did some media. I didn't get a chance to see that. Dana said after the fight, basically, we're going to have to see where he's at. All right. I guess we'll have to figure that out. I mean, there's complications there because is Jorge going to fight teammate Colby Covington? If Covington beats Lawler, you've got some issues.

How stupid would that be to burn that fight? I mean, it's not that I'm opposed to teammates fighting. And if they have to keep the division moving, I suppose that you have to keep the division moving. On the other hand, you want Jorge to fight all of the guys not like him, not his boys. You want Jorge to go up against Boy Scouts or,

sorry, white dudes in the suburbs. It's a great clash. That's what you want. I don't know exactly if Covington's the right... They're both kind of MAGA dudes anyway. By the way, how cruel is the fight game, just real quick? In five seconds, we're questioning has Ben Askren healthy enough to ever fight again, and will this mentally damage him forever?

I think he will be. But we don't know what would have happened if he doesn't hit that five-second knee. I still think Askren would have dominated him over three rounds, and here we are. This is the interesting part about it. When people are like they called it a lucky shot, they're wrong. However, when they call it a lucky shot and they're using that for shorthand to basically claim that the fight would have been different had he not been vaporized by the first shot, they have a point.

They absolutely have a point. But here's the problem. He did get vaporized. We're never going to know. They're never going to make that rematch. Jorge will never agree to it. It's like the Conor McGregor-Jose Aldo fight. How can you top that? How do you top the fastest knockout in UFC history? You don't. All right. Let's move on to the main event.

Jon Jones defeating Tiago Santos over the course of five rounds. Tiago Santos becomes the first person in UFC history with Jon Jones to take a scorecard on the judge's scorecard. Really the first person to get a decision against Jones since what? The Albuquerque Police Department? All right. Well, you know, you said it, not me. So when he comes knocking down your door, you can remember this moment here fondly. Thank you.

Thank you. All right. Very good. So how did you score the fight, first of all? 48-47 for John Jones. Three rounds to two. Do you understand or sympathize with a scorecard for Tiago Santos? I do.

I do understand because I don't think everyone realized. I sat, what, five feet away from the cage, and in this game of combat sports, sometimes being that close can hurt your view. Sometimes it can help you. What I saw was Tiago Santos was landing bombs. John's chin, which has always been championship level, obviously he's the greatest of all time,

walked through some go-home punches and kicks. So if you were going to use that in your basis, mixed with the fact that Jones did not finish strong, gave away that fifth round in some weird ways. And by the way, did you score the fifth round for Santos? Because you should have. I think I did, yeah. The one judge who scored it overall for Santos. If you scored it for Santos, it should have been 1-2-5. The one judge who scored the fight for Santos

gave the fifth round to Jones. I don't understand how they got to that math. That's weird. But it's a weird fight, man, because if you scored the fight as a whole, and we don't do that, I thought Jones won, and I'd actually echo Dana and say that overall,

he kind of largely dominated. He won the technical battles, the footwork battles, the space, and he outclassed him. He showed Floyd Mayweather-type situations in round four when he just kept him footwork battles, the space. He outclassed him. He showed Floyd Mayweather-type situations in round four when he just kept him at distance and limited the danger. You don't score it round by round, obviously. That brings Santos back in. But what the heck's up with Jones' strategy?

So I talked to some people. I have some sources. I won't say who they are. But basically what I ascertained was that he was looking. Takedowns were a big component and he was not injured. Now, after a while, I think it was the left leg got so beat up that whatever the game plan may have been up to that point, anything after that's out the window.

But up to that point, why wasn't the full game plan executed? Because my understanding was clinch work and ground fighting was going to be a huge component there because you have to think on the feet, what's Tiago Santos' best chance? Got to be on the feet. He's no sl Santos' best chance? Got to be on the feet. He's no slouch on the ground, but Jon Jones' takedowns are phenomenal. And his ground, people don't talk about Jon Jones' ground pound. That might actually be the best part of his game. Go back and look.

He whips into shots. But it's not just that. It's how he sets you up for that. Remember the Gustafson rematch? Yes. It's kind of boring for two rounds, but he was systematically setting up Gustafson to break him down with kicks and wear down his cardio and then take him down and finish it. You've got to feel like that could have happened in this fight, especially when Santos is late.

So what I was told was that he felt like Tiago Santos was baiting him the whole time with wide shots so that he would come through and then catch him with something linear, an uppercut, a knee up the middle. So in the end, what he decided to do was, you know what, let me just, let me take the path of least resistance, keep my title. See, I didn't see that, because what you're saying is... Well, let me make the key consideration here, which is the one I want you to weigh in on. He's trying to get to that, I want to be the guy who won 20 titles, 20 world, or 20 times

anyway in world title fights, which is an enormous goal and would be something I couldn't imagine someone doing anytime soon. He wants to take his status as the GOAT, but why didn't that happen? But what does it mean that the last two times he's fought, he's faced guys who he was widely expected to rout and then just didn't? Is he fighting smart to get to a goal, or is there something perhaps a little bit more to the story? Overall, since his comeback from the USADA test, he is fighting smarter.

He's much more efficient, and if you're going to look at it from an age standpoint, 31 still in his physical prime. But slowly that's going to leak as he gets older. He's kind of setting himself up for perfection. This is what Michael Jordan did in 1993 by adding that step-back jump shot from the high post. This is what Floyd Mayweather did by going to more of a pot-shotting style one punch at a time in his mid to late 30s. He's smart, efficient. His numbers are through the roof if you look at it for this fight. I think, though, the fourth and fifth round of this fight in particular isn't the same

comparison to maybe what happened in the Smith fight. John's saying, ultimately, that I wasn't going to shoot in because I thought I had the fight in the bag. I thought there was danger there. I thought he put himself into more danger by walking into the strike zone of a wounded animal, who's the biggest puncher he's faced in a long time, and staying right there. And what I saw was John was almost boredom. He's almost too good for his own good that he almost ultimately DJ Khaled himself.

I mean, he almost played yourself. You almost gave away the title, and you had a wounded, dangerous animal. And instead of just finishing him, did you know what he did? He was playing with his food. He was walking in and trying to land like a point guard who won't make the safe pass, only wants to make the spectacular assist. He, I felt, was trying to line up the perfect knockout. And if it wasn't going to get there, he was fine with letting it go the distance.

It reminded me of Jose Aldo after the Frankie Edgar fight, the first one, or even the Chan Sung Jung. Well, the Chan Sung Jung when he got injured. But after the first Frankie Edgar fight, Jose Aldo had, I thought, won the fight, but they were asking him, like, did you think this was at all close? And he was like, yeah, no, not close at all. And you're like, nah, that fight was pretty close, dude. And he was just sort of like nonchalant about actually how competitive it was in the end.

And his attitude, I think Jose Aldo's was, well, it may have been competitive. Well, it's not, but it may have been competitive only because I let it be competitive. I got, I got shades of that with the attitude. My other thought is this. I don't know what the reality is about his physical situation. You see, he has to tape that toe that he broke and shattered against Chael Sonnen on the buddy system, which is no big deal because you can still work around that. But my thought is at 31 years of age, he's been fighting for over a decade now. He's had a long time off. What I'm about to say is, I am not declaring that he is old, because I don't know that that is true. What I do think it's worth observing is, yes, the Cormier rematch, he looked like I've never seen a fighter.

I still think his Gustafson fight, which was the second one, only seven months ago, dude, it was a masterpiece. It was an absolute masterpiece. So my hunch is that the old thing, my concerns about any kind of wear and tear or maybe any kind of physical decline, somewhat overstated. We don't know the answer. Let's see how things go. But what I do think we should do is at least keep an eye

on it. I don't think it's a completely irrelevant concern, but I can't say it's true at this time right now. This is already a dangerous enough sport where you could lose everything. Your title, the empire you've built on one punch, on one crazy situation. Yet John in an Anthony Smith fight, which he was dominating, could have lost the title on that illegal blow had Smith wanted to go to the DQ ending, and he could have exited Vegas without his title this time around

for just what looked like shoddy strategy. You're telling me you can't shoot? I don't think his strategy was shoddy. Well, it's shoddy if you have a wounded guy on one leg who's falling down when he's trying to kick you, and you won't go in for a take. But that's not a function of strategy. That's a function of risk management.

What you're mad at is his risk management. Your whole point is you could have won the fight by assuming some more risk, but not enough risk to jeopardize losing. But had he jabbed from the outside, you could have that argument. Had he done what he did for most of the fourth round, which is T-kick from the outside, then you'd say, look, he's playing it safe. He doesn't want to get hurt. It's kind of the OSP fight all over again.

The fifth round, he was walking into the man's strike zone and trying to land the perfect knockout. So it's almost like he's inflicting more danger upon himself. There was almost an arrogance level there that was like, I already walked through everything he has. I got this. When we're watching, going, just take the wounded guy down and finish him. All right. Well, time for a debate, I guess, a little bit later. Let's move to the co-main event.

Amanda Nunes, Jesus Christ, she just blew right through Holly Holm. I'd never seen something like that. So first round stoppage wins over Holly Holm. First round stoppage wins over, well, win anyway, over Ronda Rousey and then Cyborg Justino. I mean, it's just a ridiculous resume at this point. Here's what I saw, Brian. I saw people saying there's no debate over her being the greatest female fighter of all time. Agreed. I don't think you can possibly make that argument anymore. Just the nature of the wins is too dominant. However, there's a question now where she should be ranked pound for pound relative to the men. And I have seen some folks say she should be ranked top of the heap. This is a dumb argument. Hold on. I agree. She should not be ranked top of the heap,

which is not to say that I cannot imagine a scenario where a woman could be ranked top pound for pound. I could. If you created a female Mike Tyson, something we thought Rousey was for a short season, then you could have an argument. It's possible. Here's the problem. If you look at, for example, Daniel Cormier, who sits atop the pound for pound rankings, his only losses are to other top pound for pound guys. Well, really, one guy, obviously. And some picograms. John Jones. Whereas, if you look at Amanda Nunes, she has done a bit more of what I call

the Demetrius Johnson thing, where she started off very, very good and then just got unstoppable. But she does have stoppage losses on her career, including to Kat Zingano. Now, I would favor Amanda Nunes over Kat Zingano. Don't misunderstand me. She didn't lose to Zingano last night. She lost to conditioning, let's be honest. Okay, but whatever. Whose hand got raised at the end of the fight? So this is my point. If you wanted

to rank Amanda Nunes very, very highly on the pound-for-pound rankings, I don't have a problem with it. What I don't want to hear is that, well, if you're the top pound-for-pound woman ever, surely you're better than your male contemporaries. That is not necessarily the case. There's two different arguments that people are combining. UFC is combining it, unfortunately, on their website when they do pound for pound and they mix men and women together. Here's the two debates we're talking about here. If you're talking about more of greatest of all time, it's more based on what you accomplished.

It's certainly how good you were and your level of competition, but it's more on what you accomplished. If you want to turn this debate into what more would Amanda Nunes have to do to be considered possibly the greatest fighter ever, even above John Jones, Anderson Silva, GSP, Daniel Cormier, then we can have that debate. Then we can have that debate whether her consistent level of competition and the danger that she is facing is on par with something that John Jones went through going through now two and a half eras of light heavyweight and rolling through what had been the deepest and most dangerous division during most of that.

When you're doing pound for pound, though, it's different. Pound for pound is more of in the moment, who would fight who if it was possible, if it was mythically possible. I don't think that's what pound for pound means. No, it is. It really is. Because you know why? Because Demetrius Johnson-

That's a nonsensical way to describe pound for pound. It's incoherent. It makes no sense. Well, I'll coherentize for it. Okay? I'll take out... I'll shave it down. I'll take out the razor and get rid of that salt and pepper on the end for you. Here's what I ultimately mean. I like the salt and pepper on the end. We could never put Demetrius Johnson in the cage with Jon Jones. So pound for pound was created

in boxing, obviously, when Sugar Ray Robinson was considered the best, but he could never beat a heavyweight. So you're sort of in your head creating a mythical division. If they had the advantages they have in their division, you put Demetrius Johnson and Jon Jones in the same division with their same pluses and minuses, who would win? This is not a real argument. That's sort of who you figure out who's the best in the world right now. Women and men don't compete against each other. This is not what pound for pound means.

That's what pound for pound means pound for pound means when you establish across the ways in which you measure greatness a certain set of thresholds how many champions did they beat that's not what pound for pound is it has to be because the way you're doing it is impossible you are making a case such that a woman could never be it

I can imagine a case where a woman could be it I can imagine a case where a flyweight could be it I cannot imagine a case under your definition where someone under those considerations could actually win and be atop the pound for pound. It is. What kind of demonstration of greatness have you put together? Which comes from wins. Which comes from stoppages. Which comes from how fast you did it. Which comes from how many champions you beat. Which comes from how many rounds you win. It is all of that. But to separate people in the end, it has to ultimately be who would beat who.

You are imagining what it would be. It's mythical. I am giving you objective standards. You measure everyone against. There's nothing objective about a pound-for-pound debate. It is if you have certain thresholds for greatness that you hold everyone to. Your answer is, well, what if they both had

knives and they were blindfolded? Who would win? I don't fucking know. Who knows? It's a nonsensical way to describe it. Look, a lot of people get pound for pound wrong. You have to take into account what they've accomplished. You have to take into account a lot of things. I think it's fine. But it ultimately comes down to who beats who. And guess what? Women and men don't fight up till now so you can't have them in the same pound for pound

debate of who would beat who. I understand. My only point is that's why that definition no longer works. It might have worked in boxing when guys were separated seven pounds and you could have it sort of narrowly from 141 up to 160 and you're kind of thinking about it in that scenario. But when you're going from 125 dudes to 200 and how big is it, Francis Ngannou, 250, and then you're crossing genders, it no longer becomes a relevant way to have a discussion about greatness. It's not possible to do. What is possible to do is then set up objective measurements and then see how each one grades against it.

So I still don't understand how you could argue that women's fighters could be in the same pound-for-pound debate of men when it's essentially two separate things. So it would require, under the current way in which women's MMA is populated by talent, it wouldn't be possible because they're just not populated in the same way. And that's not Amanda Nunes' fault. Maybe if it was, she'd still be just as dominant. We just don't really know.

I also think it's kind of interesting that she's doing what like Jon Jones did early in his career. He was going through and beating like the Machidas and the Shoguns and the Rampages, all these like esteemed establishment talents, now she's just bulldozing all of them. It's kind of similar, although she's much more senior in her career. He was much more junior.

Nevertheless, you're right. There's just not enough competition for us to say you meet the same standards of greatness. But I do think that when you just look at her, dude, she's doing something pretty goddamn special. She's combining power and precision like we've never seen before. And she's getting better. She's getting better fight over fight over fight into her, Dude, she's doing something pretty goddamn special. Oh, she's combining power and precision like we've never seen before. And she's getting better.

She's getting better fight over fight over fight into her, what, 30s? It's remarkable to watch. It really is. And there's obviously no slight against her. I'm just saying you can't. I don't know how you can compare. It's not her fault that her contemporaries, they just can't hang. Well, it's not even that.

Can you compare men and female, male and female fighters on that level in this type of criteria? I'm not saying go make me a sandwich. I'm saying can you actually compare this? Alright? You can make me a goddamn sandwich. Alright, let's see. So we have the main event, co-main event. We talked about that feature fight. There were a couple of other things on this card

worth discussing. Namely, you had Diego Sanchez losing to Michael Chiesa and you had Luke Rockhold losing very badly to Jan Blachowicz. I'm going to pitch this one to you first. Should they retire? Dana White thinks so. What about you?

I think Diego Sanchez should retire, and we've been at this point. Diego Sanchez. Diego Sanchez. We've been at this point three or four times. You know the reasons why he should. Yeah, he had that two-fight win streak. The Mickey Gall win was almost like. Even though he survived the whole way against the big Michael Chiesa.

Okay, what do you win for surviving? Just playing devil's advocate. You lost every second of that fight. Just playing devil's advocate. I mean, the ultimate is, look, your reward as an old fighter for getting a win you shouldn't, and the win over Mickey Gall really was one that in theory you shouldn't, is that, oh, no, now you get propped up again and you get a harder test. Luckily for Diego Sanchez, he wasn't knocked out cold.

It wasn't in that situation. But I think it might be time to just get out now. We've had, let's remember, three or four times before. Remember his loss at UFC 200 where we're like, okay, I don't need to see him keep getting stuffed. That's okay. It's time. It's time to go. It might be time to go.

What else is there to learn if you're just going to be fodder? Okay, what about Luke Rockhold? That's interesting. When Dana White said that. That took me by surprise. It took me by surprise. And when you add in the broken jaw, it's interesting. You did a long and fantastic breakdown on the sister show, Breaking Down.

Morning Combat, Dissected, out soon. And you did a great job breaking down the differences in what Luke used to do technique-wise that he's not doing now. Maybe there's some laziness right there. I almost look at it as separate to that. You know, everyone's got a friend in their friend group who's a great-looking dude, gets chicks all the time. It's a burden I wear all the time, Brian Campbell. But he's pushing forward and he's probably not going to get married because he seems to be missing that one key ingredient on the inside. Luke Rockhold is like that as a fighter. He's got everything except for that one thing. And I don't think that one thing. What is that one thing? I don't think that one thing is chin. I don't

necessarily even think that one thing is, well, he doesn't put his hands up enough. I think the one thing and why your whole demonstration of how his technique has sort of devolved over time is that intersection between arrogance and ignorance. It's a gray area that looks like the same street corner. And nobody has more arrogance than Luke Rockhold. Did you ever see him on Millionaire Matchmaker, by the way, that episode he was in? No, although this is a true story. After it was over, my DMs got flooded from women who thought it were me. And I was like, oh, honey, you made a bad mistake in thinking that was me.

Well, I almost, again, have to make this dating comparison. He's on that reality show Millionaire Matchmaker about four or five years ago, and he was a dick to the girls, and he got absolutely destroyed by Patty the host. And she's just like, you don't respect women, you don't respect anything, get the F out of my office. That's sort of a mirror image of who he's become as a fighter. There's no respect for his opponent. There's now no respect for the old techniques he used to do to set himself up to win.

It's sort of like, I'm Luke Rockhold, man. I'm the former champion in two divisions. I'm real good looking. I'm a male model. I'll figure it out in there because I'm Luke Rockhold. And I think there's this strong level of arrogance that there's just one wire missing that's prevented him from really fulfilling his legacy. And I made a joke to him when I interviewed him this week. I said, look, Bisping's going to the Hall of Fame.

Are you going to go up to him and kind of give one final dig and go, you're only going in because of me? And he sort of laughed. He goes, Bisping knows. He got lucky. And Luke, gun to your head. Not that I would put that there, but Bisping's not a Hall of Famer without that Rockhold win.

And you know this. That's true. Man. But it's not lucky. You go back and you watch the first fight. I get it. But it's Rockhold's arrogance that gave him that win. It's Rockhold's arrogance that has kept him away from fulfilling. And it may be Rockhold's arrogance that gave him that win. It's Rockhold's arrogance that has kept him away from fulfilling.

And it may be Rockhold's arrogance that now, if you're just going to be cannon fodder for the elite guys in a higher division with more firepower coming out at you, unless you are going to fix that rewiring, unless you are going to get humble. He has had some humble, devastating knockout losses. And he's not humble in the face-offs. He's not humble in the interviews. he's not humble in the face-offs, he's not humble in the interviews, he's not humble inside the cage. He's that dude who's never going to settle down and commit. Let's go Sanchez first.

Sanchez has taken, he's either number one or number two, according to fight metrics, in significant strikes absorbed to the head in UFC history. For him to be in that predicament, where yes, I realize that his grappling prowess is so ingrained at this point, it's going to be hard to pass his guard and get knee on belly and mount and then take his back and choke him out in a kind of progressive, sustained

way. He has very, very good defense. In some ways, the Chiesa fight was not the worst choice the UFC could have made because Chiesa's not going to go out there and ally a quinta him in the same kind of way, although Chiesa did certainly put him through the wood chipper a little bit in his own way. Although Al may sell him a condo. You never know that. You know what? There are benefits to having a relationship with ally-aquinta. But the point being is this.

We're talking about a guy who has, I'm not making this up, I'm not exaggerating, this is not hyperbole, historic levels of damage. Historic. And then he goes into this fight. He's a senior fighter. He knows how to fight. He knows how to prepare on fight week. He knows everything. And he goes in there with a guy, one corner man, who to call him manifestly unqualified would be quite the charitable expression. He makes Edmund

look like he has head movement. Edmund Tarverdian is goddamn Greg Jackson compared to him. Okay? And also, Edmund Shabazian, good fighter too. Edmund's boy looks good, yeah. So here's the point though. The commission, first of all, bears some responsibility in allowing that to go forward, number one. I know that you have to do it to let a guy fight, but at some point, you've got to say enough is enough. And then, I understand the UFC, they didn't want to pull the fight.

Okay, I get it. I heard what Dana had to say, that you need to have a long talk with him. I'm not opposed to Diego or Luke continuing. I want to talk about Luke in just a second. But it's the same situation I see with everyone. There needs to be an exit plan. It needs to be known. For example, look at what Bellator did with Fedor, the retirement tour.

He's on his way out the door. We're going to make this official. The door is closing. He's going to turn back into a pumpkin, and that's fine. That's exactly what's supposed to happen. I think we need to see that. B.J. Penn should never see a cage again under the UFC's auspices. That's a little bit different.

You may see a different cage if they don't get him controlled. People love Diego. And they love him for the right reasons. Because he's a fighter's fighter. He's a fan's fighter. He went to the freaking Hall of Fame this weekend. But you've got to do the humane thing. And you've got to say enough's enough.

Can I just pause you and say, he didn't go on. People are saying now he's a Hall of Famer. He is a Hall of Famer. No, he's not. His fight was adhered to be a Hall of Famer. So his ghost did that? Dude, he did that. No, he's not. His fight was adhered to be a Hall of Famer. Okay, so his ghost did that? Dude, he did that. Dude, this is not even the equivalent of like...

What the weird part is, is the fight with Parisian was better, by the way, but okay. Okay, maybe the fight with Gilbert was better, by the way. I talked to Gilbert. He said it. You know when, if you're like the backup bassist for like the Rolling Stones and you get the Hall of Fame? No, I don't know that. Okay, well, if you're Bill Wyman, you're a Hall of Famer, right?

You played bass with the Rolling Stones. If you were in a fight that was inducted to the Hall of Fame, you're not a Hall of Famer. Speaking of backups, David Lee Roth was there at UFC 239. He was? Yeah. He's all bald now. He was doing media interviews.

All right, so here's the point. So let's talk about Luke Rockhold. Same thing. I am not ready to close the door on Luke Rockhold. Every time someone gets a bad knockout, oh, he's got no chin. And I'm not here to say that those concerns are totally irrelevant. But as you'll see on Morning Combat Dissected, there's a lot more to the story here. Maybe it's an arrogance thing. I don't exactly know what the issue is. But when you looked at his performance, he looked way bigger than he needed to look. He just didn't have the same

hustle. And here's what's weird. Is he a bad athlete? No. Did he not train hard? I'm sure he trained hard. Is he with a good team? Yes. Do they know what they're doing? Of course. So how can this be happening? Something is not clicking there.

So what I would say is, does he need to stop fighting? Everyone always says, you could never tell another man to retire. Yeah, I'm not his mom. I can't tell him. But can I say whether or not I think it's a good idea? I'm going to say table that idea. Let's see what else he can figure out. But for him to be underperforming relative to not our own expectations, what he used to do, go back and watch the first Bisping fight in Australia. Dude, it's like a different person. I'm just not ready to close the door on that. You know when a man gets to celebrity level and they can just get chicks like that,

they stop having to wine and dine them? Yeah. It's just sort of like that. That's where he's at as a fighter, bro. The comparisons make so much sense. I think he was like that before he was a world-class fighter. I don't think he's ever had to hustle too hard for that. But to your point about maybe just not understanding,

is there enough humility to force out of him the kinds of things? How do you not get humbled by this? You talk so much trash to Bloho. And Anthony Smith was having a field day. Going back to the Jorge Maslow conversation, again, dude, you talk that ass. You've got to walk that plank when it's all said and done in that kind of particular regard. So here's what I would say. Diego Sanchez, I think, needs an exit plan.

And for Luke Rockhold, let's see if he wants to fight one more time and see what it looks like there. But if he's just not willing to compete with the same kind of verve, it looked to me like he used to love showing how good he is. Now he wants everyone to just assume it. And you need to cross that path. And whatever that is that he needs to manufacture, that's up to him. All right, lightning round. Do you think he should finish?

Gilbert Melendez. Say again? Gilbert Melendez. Say again? Gilbert Melendez, should he finish? What do you got? Oh, should he finish his career? Yeah. I would like to see him hanging up. He hasn't won since UFC 166.

He didn't look terrible. Here's what I would say. He did not look to me shopworn. He just looked to me like it was Schwarzenegger versus the T-1000. It was just an updated model, and that's not his fault. He's 37. Dude, and here's the best part about Gilbert Melendez. He's already doing what we're doing.

He's already doing media stuff. He's already on ESPN. He's already got a show with Dominic Cruz. He's got his own gym. I'm not worried about him in terms of what he's going to do next. So no, I don't think he needs to keep fighting. He's a warrior. He's going to make his own kind of call about that.

And he has nothing left. Dude, Gilbert Melendez is one of the all-time great lightweights. He's one of the all-time great lightweights. Had won titles, some of the biggest rivalries, beat some of the biggest names, was on some of the best winning streaks. He's got nothing left to prove. Holly Holm, Dana White said she should finish. I actually don't disagree with that. Because what else are you fighting for? You're going to be 38 soon yep you can't beat the elites anymore you're you're two and five in your last uh you know seven against most largely against elites just got stopped for the first time unless it's a pride or money thing all right

odds and ends anything else from the combat you just no sell just straight no yeah i'm no selling it odds and ends anything else from the straight combat, what am I saying, from the combat sports weekend worth mentioning? Oh, boxing. Heavyweight boxing. That's going to get you fired up as a power lifter, right? No, but tell me. All right. Tyson Fury finally acknowledging publicly

that he has signed for a rematch with Deontay Wilder. He threw out the date of February 22nd of early next year. Hashtag fired the heck up. I mean, are you serious right now i mean the heavyweight division is sex right now it's just fantastic it's pretty nice um it feels like we're getting closer to finally the best all facing the best yep who's winning that one um i think i'm a big fan of deontay he's got to get get through Luis Ortiz first, and that's going to be a full limit. Which I think he will. Which I think he will.

Tyson Fury is the best boxer on the planet. Heavyweight boxer, sorry. But I'm a big Deontay Wilder fan. I'm a sucker for him, so I'm going to say Deontay. But if you're asking me skill for skill, I don't think anyone matches up with Tyson Fury. I just think that's just reality. But no one hits the bombs like old Deontay either. Here's my odds and end for me on UFC 239. Claudia Gedalia defeated Randa Marcos.

And I made a point, and I got sort of set on fire for it on social media because the commentators were like, oh, she needs to make a statement. She needs to make a statement. And I understand what they meant. They meant, hey, man, someone's got to push the action here a little bit. You want to win? You've got to win decisively. You've got to get out there and do it, which she did not do. However, here's what she did do, Brian Campbell. She only won the fight. She didn't gas and she struck the whole time, which is something historically a little bit unusual for her. This was the only point I was trying to make. She did make a statement. Now, what statement did she make? That she's going to go join the ranks

of K1 and Glory and start beating the shit out of people? No, that's not what she's going to do. However, if what she is doing by joining a new team, Mark Henry and the Super Friends here, if by joining that she is taking the first step towards building out and putting a little bit more infrastructure in her game to give her some options, as a first step, what is the problem with this? There's nothing wrong with it. If it's the only step she makes, then it's not much of a statement. But if it's the first step, what is the problem with this? There's nothing wrong with it. If it's the only step she makes, then it's not much of a statement. But if it's the first step on a path, why should we deny her that? So I'm willing to see. Let's see how this goes. She's trying to become a well-rounded fighter. So if you're going to be well-rounded, don't give up on the wrestling. I know that,

you know, maybe not. Again, Goldilocks syndrome. A lot of times when these people add new skills or when they really feel like they're working on something, they kind of abandon it. They've got to figure out hot, cold, right in the middle. Did you see her tweet, though? She wants a third fight with Boogie Woman. Ioana, that'd be fun. Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure if she's really ready for that either. We'll have to see what her division holds. But I'm just saying, as a first step, I don't know why that was contemptible

to say she had taken one. Alright, Brian. Well, soon the Dungeon Master will come and clear us out of here. And we will move on to our next job. But we want to thank everyone for watching. This is the first one. Look, there's going to be a lot more details added. They're going to put some stuff back here. They're going to put ball gags in Brian's mouth, true GIMP style from Pulp Fiction. It's going to be a whole show.

But so this is just the first episode, so we really appreciate you guys watching. Again, I want to thank Showtime for giving me this opportunity. Brian, you're welcome, and so forth. So anything else you want to say before we get out of here? No. No? No. All right.

Good job. Yeah, thanks. Welcome back. A little sweaty. A true story. He didn't get home until 1 a.m. from Vegas because he didn't plan his trip accordingly. But thank you for making the effort. A lot of caffeine in the veins right now.

I am excited about this show. All right. Until next time, thank you guys so much for watching. A lot of caffeine in the veins right now. I am excited about this show. All right. Until next time, thank you guys so much for watching. May all of your gains be loyal. We'll be right back. Outro Music