Motley Fool Money - Small Cap Investing 101

Episode Date: August 13, 2022

This is the fun part of being a stock investor. Ricky Mulvey and Bill Mann, Director of Small Cap Research at The Motley Fool kick off their series on small cap investing. They discuss: - Why small cap investors have an opportunity to beat the market. - The metrics that really matter for small caps. - Spotting B.S. from younger companies. - One small cap trend catching our attention. Stocks mentioned: ANET, RDFN, CWH, NFLX, AMZN, CHD Additional resource: 4 Steps to Find Small-Cap Stocks (fool.com) Host: Ricky Mulvey Guest: Bill Mann Engineers: Dan Boyd, Tim Sparks Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Some of the most profitable investments you will ever make are companies that don't seem like they are growing very fast, but they are growing very consistently. The lower the raw growth rate, the more I would want to see a company that if it disappeared tomorrow would be painful to the consumers that buy it. I'm Dylan Lewis, and that's the Motley Fool's Bill Mann. Today we're kicking off our series on small cap investing. It's kind of the secret sauce of what we do here. Producer Ricky Mulvey caught up with Bill to talk about why smallcaps can help investors beat

the market, the traits of great leaders in the space, and why it's even more important to watch these CEOs, and one investing trend that has some serious stang power. Today we're kicking off a series on Small Cap investing. Joining us now is Bill Mann. We don't normally do the full titles at the full, but you are the director of Small Cap research here, so it does seem appropriate to establish that. Thanks for doing this. It's no problem. You're right. We don't do titles. And I'm glad we don't. But in this case, hopefully I've got something to say. Well, we got about a half hour. And if you have nothing to say, it's going to be a very difficult podcast. Hey, Ricky, so what do you got?

If you're new to this, why do you like small cap investing? Why is this stuff more fun than the other kind? I love the fact that you've described it as fun. And it really is. Small cap investing is where you get to go treasure hunting. The reality of small cap investing is that when you bring up these companies at cocktail parties, at softball games, wherever it is that you go and interact with other people, a lot of times you are not going to get the same level of a response from people than if you say, oh yeah, I own Apple or I own Berkshire Hathaway. These tend to be companies that very few people have heard of. It is fun to me. because it is also an area where you can truly go on a treasure hunt.

And there are fewer people and less money fishing in these waters. One of the things we're going to talk about in a little bit is why individual investors actually have a structural advantage when it comes to smaller companies. Let's do that now. I mean, this is kind of this, look, we've got to do a daily show here at Motley Full Money. So we got to talk about a lot of things. But this is, I mean, this is kind of the secret sauce, right? Find a small company if they have products customers like, if they got the right numbers on them.

Like, and you do and you buy enough of those companies, you can probably, I shouldn't say probably, you can possibly beat the market over a long stretch of time? I'd say probably. Can I say probably? We're not going to get the podcast, please, aren't going to come down on us if we'd say, probably. It is, in order to invest in small caps and to make it a large, component of your portfolio, you do have to have the right mindset. You are going to be wrong

more often. I mean, that's just full stop. There is less information on them. You are not going to be able to find much in the way of institutional research on these companies. It doesn't make any sense for the big banks to go out and research them because it doesn't make any sense for them to go out and buy them. The money is not there for them. And so, you know, if you are committed to owning a larger number of companies and if you are committed to recognizing the fact that you're going to be wrong a lot and just embrace it, you're going to be wrong a lot even more often with small caps, then there is a path there to making a tremendous return over time. You know, small caps have historically constituted the lion's share of the returns for the Motley Fool from our

recommendations, by which I say, you know, so for example, one of the companies that we have done best on is Netflix. I know Netflix has had a hard stretch in 2022, but we invested in it as a small cap. We invested in a company called Marvel that became Disney, and it was a small cap. David Gardner recommended a little tiny company called Amazon in 1998 and never wavered. And it was a small cap when he picked it. And I understand, Ricky, that that's a little bit of gilding the lily, pointing out those three companies right away. But the great thing about small cap investing is that you can be wrong often.

But if you're right once and you have that tenacity to hold on, it will make a little bit. make all the difference. Let's go to the flip side because it is, you know, we can play the hits, but, you know, you talk about how you have to be comfortable losing. Yeah. And that's probably even more so the case with this than the large caps. But, you know, can you think of a time that maybe you got burned with a small cap company with big promises?

Oh, gosh. There are a bunch. The one that was probably most embarrassing for me. And I use the term embarrassing because, you know, I do have to tell a little bit of a story behind it. But in 2001, I was invited as an expert witness to testify before the U.S. Senate banking committee after the collapse of Enron as an expert. And I sat there before these senators and explained to them exactly why it was that some investors were able to see what was happening with Enron. So I felt like a million bucks. This was at the point in time the greatest honor

that I had had as an investor and as a follower of the markets. That same day, I returned to our offices. We were down on Pitt Street in Alexandria, Virginia, and I came in and a company that I had recommended, not just invested myself, I had recommended, and it was called ACLN, and it was a small cap company that was a car carrier company based in Belgium. And its stated business was that these car carriers would come from Korea or they would come from Japan and drop cars off in Europe and the U.S. and they would go back empty. So, ACLN said, hey, yeah, so what we're going to do is we're going to fill these car carriers with used cars and we're going to take them to Africa, which is a huge used car market. This all sounds awesome. And it also sounds like the kind of thing

that, one, really needs to happen and two is actually happening. And all of those things were true except for the is actually happening part. It was a complete and utter fraud. So the same day that I was being held up as an expert in finding fraud, I fell into one absolutely directly and very, very publicly. So, you know what they say, if you want to be laid low, first be made proud, right? So that happened awfully fast. It happens in this segment. And you've got to be able to recognize the fact that that sort of thing is, maybe not that. I mean, that was somewhat spectacular. But companies disappointing you in this segment is a reality.

Yeah, that's one reason it's more challenging. You have to get ready to lose more often. You have thinner information. You're dealing with younger companies. I'm trying to think any general reasons that this is, let's say, harder than picking, ooh, I like Microsoft and Ford. Well, I have a friend named Ian Castle who runs a site called the Microcap Club. And he put out a book called The Intelligent Fanatics Project. And it was, I love the framing

of the term intelligent fanatics. And it actually was coined by Charlie Munger, who is the vice chairman of Berkshire Athaway. And it talks about the types of business leaders that they want to see running companies. And one of the most important things in why small cap investing offers so much promise and so much challenge is that unlike, you know, the American Express of the world or the master cards or the apples of the world, small caps are almost by definition driven by great management. The quality of the management means so much in this segment. It is a much more important factor in smaller companies than it is in larger companies. larger companies, I mean, they've got staffs of hundreds, if not thousands, doing, you know,

and doing all of the things. And, you know, in some ways, in some ways, the people at the top of the business don't have any idea what's going on in large parts of the business. If that's happening at most small-cap companies, the company is probably on its way into the rocks. Let's focus on leadership in a sec. I feel like I'm doing an ad break now, but I do think we got to knock out some of the allocation stuff. Okay. Fair enough. Let's take our spinach. Let's do the quick allocation. We always say at the Motley Fool, you got to own 25 to 30 stocks. Do you think that number increases if you're playing the small cap game? Well, it kind of depends on how you do it. And specifically, I would say this, if you are going

to, if you're going to buy small cap companies, you need to be fairly sure that your companies are internally diverse. So it's easy enough to say 25 to 30, but if you own 25 SaaS, companies and then a biotech company for diversity, you're not actually diverse. I don't care what the number of companies that you own. Yes, I would absolutely positively encourage to own on the high side of smaller cap companies in terms of the number. But at the same time, you do also have to make sure, I always think about my portfolios, you have a risk on a company basis, but you also have a risk on a thematic basis. So if you own all Chinese companies, that you are exposed 100% to China, right?

And it doesn't matter that you own two companies or 50. You still are absolutely positively exposed to something exogenous to any of the individual companies. So, yes, I would suggest that you own more smaller cap companies. I would suggest that you give yourself the grace to know that in any case, owning more companies means that you will be able to study them less. We all have the same number of hours in the day. Therefore, you are likely to be wrong more often.

And in smaller cap companies, you are also likely to have, even if you have the best source of knowledge that there is, sometimes these companies are going to disappoint you. It's not the number of slices on the pie chart. Not just that. It's the colors on the pie chart. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Right. Like, hey, I've got 17 shades of green. Is this a rainbow? No, it's not a rainbow. I also, I've heard this from Jason Moser. I've heard it from John Ratanti. The idea is, when you're playing the speculative game, make sure you essentially buy, for each speculative company, you buy like one that's not going to keep you up at night. Right, exactly. And we've been talking about small caps as if they are some sort of like monolithic

beast. So maybe put a little bit of definition around what a small cap is. And that would be helpful. What's that? I said that would have been helpful if I did that at the beginning of the episode. Yeah. So what are we talking about here? We are talking about essentially at this point in time, companies that are $8 billion in below. So $8 billion, it turns out if you are the only owner of a company worth $8 billion, you have $8 billion, which is a lot of money. But from a company perspective, it does not, an $8 billion company barely moves the needle for the S&P 500, for example, for the index that it's in. So, anything sub $8 billion, I would consider to be a smaller cap company. Now, you can definitionally go smaller than that and say between $300 million and

2 billion as a small cap company, which is absolutely fine. I wouldn't get too wrapped up around the definitions, but I really, to me, the ceiling is about $8 billion. And the way I come up with that number, Ricky, is that that is the market cap of the 490th size company in the S&P 500. And we picked 490 for which reason? Because there's always companies that are within the S&P 500 that are so, deeply impacted that they're going to be pulled out. Gotcha.

Right. There are companies at all times that are in the S&P 500 that are on their way out because they are something deeply, deeply wrong. So, again, don't get to spun up on the, you know, that's not a scientific number. It just seems like a good rough cut. When you're talking about small cap companies, you have to recognize a couple of things. One is there are small cap banks. There are 30 tiny banks in the state. of Indiana that are publicly traded companies. There are also revenue-less biotech companies that are small-cap companies. There are SaaS companies that are biotech companies. There are

manufacturing companies that are small-cap companies. So it is a segment that is defined by being smaller, but you need to be careful about taking too much in the way of rules like small-cap That means this, because some of these companies are small caps, have been public, have been small caps for 50 years, and to the extent that they will survive, will always be small caps. There are other companies, like when we were talking earlier about Amazon. I mean, at a trillion plus in market cap, it's obviously no longer a small cap. A lot of small cap companies are on their way to being something else.

that something else is a much bigger company. So, that's an extra minute before I get to answering the question that you asked, which was Jason Moser's point and John Rotati's point about buying something that's speculative and matching it against something that is much more dependable. So like, for example, a biotech company in a bank, I think in some ways you have to know yourself, right? Like, you need to make sure that to the best of your ability, that you are buying risks that are compensated for, right? You don't want uncompensated risk in any single company. That doesn't mean that things aren't going to go wrong. But if you are someone who is not comfortable with your portfolio going down 30 or 40 percent, you absolutely need to make sure

that you are much more loaded with companies that aren't going to do that, right? Which doesn't mean that Because if you look at, I know, 2020 has been painful for a lot of people, but even in years like 2020, small cap companies, you just look at their 52-week low and they're 52-week high, and they're usually 70 or 80 percent apart from each other. These companies move a lot. And to the extent that you're comfortable with that, you can take a little bit more risk with the companies that you're putting in your portfolio. To the extent that you're not, you should be a little bit more conservative. I want to go back on a point you made about how, yes, this is a market cap.

This is a definition of market cap, and there is an impossibly large number of sectors within that. When we had a conversation earlier, you said essentially a good beginning point, if you're looking at small caps, is what problem does this company solve? Do they have the resources to do so and then also house their leadership? Yeah. Yeah, it's a good way of thinking about it. And just to put a little bit of, to put a little bit of meat around this concept, in the U.S. stock market, small caps, and I mean, companies that are smaller than mid and large caps make up 90% of the number of companies in the market. So, that goes all the way down to microcaps. But it only makes up about 7% of the total market cap of the U.S. stock market, of the major exchanges. So, you are talking

about a large number of companies, but a smaller component of the market. Let's get even smaller. How about some leadership as small-cap companies? Among these small-caps, who are some leaders that you particularly admire right now? So, we talk a lot at The Motley Fool about Arista Networks, which is a company that is incredibly important to the development of cloud computing. They are a network company, and their CEO is a a woman named Jay Sri Ullal, who when she and Andy Bechtelstein founded Arista, they took no money. They didn't, by they took no money. They obviously got paid as human beings, but they didn't go out and do huge amounts of capital

raises once they became a public company. They have grown in a very, very intelligent way. They've never reached out. And it's interesting because, you know, in a lot of times you look at these companies that are based in Silicon Valley, and it really seems like they're being, you know, being run like a fraternity house. She has made sure that the culture at Arista is incredibly accommodative, you know, to the extent that she's just said that, you know, what she wants from herself and her employees is that she just knows that human beings all crave. appreciation and they want to be recognized for having done a good job. I've heard that in a few interviews, which is, you know, I had a conversation with Bill George on last week's show. And, you know, he had this theme of look for the we leaders.

And I hear that in Jay Shree's interviews where she's very quick to point out, like, the members of her team and who's doing what well. And it's, it's kind of taken the spotlight away from her. And that's, that's something you like to see. She has actually interacted quite a bit with The Molly Fool. She's been wonderfully giving of her time. but she actually really, really doesn't like for herself to be in the spotlight. And you know, it's funny, you can pick this up. And this just takes a few minutes to do with any company that you're interested in. And I mean, especially with small caps, one thing that you can do, and it doesn't take more than five minutes,

is read the letter from the CEO or the chairman in the last annual report. and you will see that in spades. Now, first of all, one thing you have to make sure of is, you know how you can kind of tell when something's been written by a committee or it's been written by a professional. Like, look, they're good writers. A lot of mission statements. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

But you can still, you can kind of tell. But one of the real tip-offs for me is that exact thing. You're looking for a we CEO. And you are also looking for someone who, In the course of the single most red document that they will produce, that they both give credit for things that have gone well, but then they also take blame for and don't make excuses for things that have gone poorly. Ricky, every company in some ways is dysfunctional, but some companies dysfunction in a positive direction. Every single company faces

challenges. Every company has things happen both internal and external that impact their operations, impact their trajectory. How do they respond to them and how do they communicate them? It's so, so, so important. You look at a lot of small-cap companies, and I would also say that in our interactions, you seem to have a pretty good BS radar. Let's talk about spot in some of the BS among leadership. I mean, when does your radar spike when you're reading those letters, you're listening to a quarterly call, and just maybe a yellow flag goes up. So, for example, and I'm not saying, oh, gosh, we're getting, we're about to get in trouble. Are you ready? Let's go. Get your hand on the button. I am not saying that a lot of companies have not been impacted by supply chain

issues and in particular by the Russian invasion of Ukraine. But if you are a small cap bank, you know, in Indiana, and you make the excuse that the invasion of Ukraine has somehow impacted your operations. Like, it is, you should always have your detector, you should always have your detector up and understand that even the great communicators, even the ones, you know, they are, they're trying to put their best foot forward. But if the best foot is always, hey, we've got complete control, that to me is a red flag. And again, Again, I'm going to give just a tiny bit more homework because one of the ways that you can find this, and there's a CEO of a company that's really struggled this year, but I think the world

of him, Glenn Kelman at Redfin, if you go back and you read three years of his letters to shareholders, just three years. So we've gone now from five minutes of homework to 15 minutes of homework. you will see that he is talking about the same exact goals. He's not saying on this year, we've done great because of the number of houses we've sold, and the next year we've done great because of the revenues, and the next year we've done great because our price to phone number is really low. He's absolutely consistent. He's responsive to things that are happening, but he's not changing what he wants you to

look at to show, hey, this is a super successful company. So, companies just don't succeed all the time. And it's fine. It's really, really okay. And the CEOs at small cap companies who embrace that are the kinds of ones that you just, you can trust them more. If you're looking to dig into some small cap companies, four metrics to watch is you're looking through to see if the company is healthy, if it's sustainably profitable. Number one is company sales. Is that one that you have a cutoff for? I mean, it ranges based on, are you looking at a consumer goods company or a biotech company? But is there a general level in which you're just like, you know what? This is a biotech company with no sales, falls outside of my circle of competence. No,

thank you. You hit on the exact right, the exact right term. So for me, you don't want to listen to me about biotech companies. You just don't. So for me, I own, one biotech company in my portfolio, and it's because my daughter does this, and she was the one who recommended it to me, but it's not an area where I'm going to be reaching out over my skis. Some of the most profitable investments you will ever make are companies that don't seem like they are growing very fast, but they are growing very consistently. The lower the raw growth rate, the more I would want to see a company that, if it dissipation, tomorrow would be painful to the consumers that buy it. So, like, for example, in 2001, I actually

had the opportunity to have a conversation with Warren Buffett, and I pitched a company called Church and Dwight to him. And Church and Dwight is Arm and Hammer baking soda. It doesn't know a number of other things. It's bought other companies along the way. But it was, it didn't grow very fast, but it had an unbelievable franchise. If you go to the market and Armandhammer baking soda is 79 cents and off-brand baking soda is 59 cents, you're paying that 20 cents. Full stop. I mean, that's how it goes with no real expectation that it's going to perform better,

but you just do. So, company sales, to me, I do like to own profitable companies. I do like to own companies that are currently. showing growing sales, but I don't really need to see that big of a number if I believe that the company's franchise and its moat is big enough. So it's a question beyond just the sales and net profit margin. I think a lot of investors kind of get wrapped up a little too much of saying, I want a company that's growing at 25%. And then so, suddenly, if a company is growing 23%, like, is that good enough?

You know, so I made the mistake of selling Starbucks in 1999, and it's grown 23% a year since then. Would that have been okay? I think that would have been just fine. And then, you know, minimum share price, daily dollar volume. Are those the kind of thing? Are you checking boxes on those? Or is that a skim over? So, no, I think that that's a really interesting point.

And it doesn't exist so much anymore. But generally speaking, the target price range for a U.S. company used to be about $10 to about $100. When companies got above $100, they would split. And that all had to do with the mechanics of trading. And I don't really know that we need to get into that. But it is still the case. It's still the case that companies that are trading below $10 a share have something that has gone wrong or has something that the market has perceived as having gone wrong. So when you get into the lower and, you know, and Ricky, I know, I know, there are a lot of people who say, well, if the shares are price lower, I can get more of

them. But it's not really the way it works. For me, if a company is trading below $10 a share, and you said seven, and I actually think that that's actually a great number that I'm now going to embrace wholeheartedly as being scientific, you need to understand that something has probably gone wrong or is going wrong at the company. and you should sort out what it is. It doesn't mean you should stay away from the company, but knowing what the risks are is super important. And ignoring risks doesn't mean that the risks go away. You've been listening for a while. We've been talking a lot about how to do this. Let's get to some meat and potatoes. What's a trend in small cap investing you're excited about right

now? Something you're watching out for is the director of small cap research. One of the great things is that we are starting to see every once in a while, there's kind of a turnover in brands. And brands kind of happen, they happen in waves. I mean, it is not for nothing that Chipotle and Buffalo Wild Wings and a number of other restaurant styles sort of exploded onto the scene in the mid-2000s. And I think that we're seeing that now as well in other areas. So, like, for example, one of the big trends that happened during COVID, but it was all, already happening was that people in this country were going out and buying RVs. And they're down with camping, not getting on planes as much as they have in the past. So, I stopped and

thought about this and said, well, who are the best operators in this business? And perhaps the best operator is Marcus Lamanus and Camping World Holdings, which owns dozens of gigantic sales sites for RVs all around the country. So, I think that we're beginning to see a changeover in habits. And maybe some of it's been driven by, some of it's been driven by the pandemic. I think some of it's probably been just changed by as we're moving into the dominance of the millennials and the fade out of us, Gen X-Exerts. I think that that is a huge area of exploration, the new brands that are coming along.

Bill, man, thank you for your time. Hey, maybe we'll see you for part two. If I did okay, I hope you have me back. As always, people on the program may have interests in the stocks they talk about, and the Motley Fool may have formal recommendations for or against. So don't buy or sell anything based solely on what you hear. I'm Dylan Lewis. Thanks for listening.

We'll see you tomorrow.