Thriving with Anxiety
00:00When it comes to investing, I think people often are in fight or flight because they're either really excited about something and like aggressive and like, you know, you got that sort of Wall Street energy.Or they're sort of afraid, nervous, you know, apprehensive, running, you know, selling, impulsive, and that kind of thing.That was Dr. David Ross Marion, author of Thriving with Anxiety, nine tools to make your anxiety work for you.I'm Motleyful producer Matt Greer.Now, Motley-Fo analyst, Jason Moser recently talked to Ross Marin about thriving with anxiety and everything from parenting to investing. Enjoy.I'm happy to be joined by Dr. David Ross-Meron today. Dr. Ross-Maron is the founder of the Center for Anxiety and a psychologist at McLean Hospital as well as an associate professor in the Department of Psychiatry at Harvard Medical School.And he's also the author of Thriving with Anxiety. Nine tools to make your anxiety work for you.Dr. Ross Marin, thanks so much for being with us today.
01:11Thanks for having me. A huge honor to be here.You know, it was a fascinating book, and I really got a lot out of reading it.I want to start off with why do you believe that normal or healthy children today have higher anxiety levelsthan the psychiatric patients that you noted in the 1950s?It's an incredible finding, isn't it, that healthy children today have more anxiety thaninpatient psych hospital patients from the 1950s in the United States.Now, I want to be clear, that's only in the United States.So if you go to third world countries, you go to low-income, middle-income countries, they do not
01:46have as much anxiety.And the reason is because, well, kids today think that if they have anxiety, then somethingis wrong with them, and it takes them down the tubes.The reality is anxiety is part of life, and our culture tells us everything to the opposite,which is creating an anxiety epidemic.Interesting.And you also described in the book, Anxiety.as a false positive fear response.
02:09You know, in a world of seemingly real threats every day, right?I mean, we just went through, I think, a very anxious time for many of usover the last several years with COVID and whatnot.But in a world of real threats,how do we distinguish between a misfire and a legitimate alarm?I think Warren Buffett said it best.He's my psychologist.You know, when people are fearful, get greedy.
02:31And often we misinterpret anxiety as a problemwhen in fact it really is an opportunity.And that's not only the case fiscally,which I'm sure we're going to talk aboutbeing the nature of the podcast,but it's also the case emotionallyin terms of our relationships,in terms of others,
02:46there are things that are going to set you off.That's not a bad thing.It means you're humanand learning how to mine those opportunitiesis really what this is about.Well, I'm glad you brought up Warren Buffettbecause obviously we're focused on investingfor the most part of here, The Motley Fool.
03:00But let's dig into that a little bitbecause emotions are one of those things,You know, we can't avoid them. And yet when we talk about investing, we really try to make sure we keep our emotions at bay, right? We don't want to let our emotions guide decisions. How do you do that? Right? I mean, it's a bit of a squishy topic. I think some of us are probably given a little bit more of the ability to do that than others. But it is difficult in life, but investing as well to sort of keep our emotions out of the equation. What are some ways that we can actually work on doing that?I think the operative word that you said is try.And to be perfectly honest, it's trying in a futile way.It's not going to happen.You're human.And it's money.
03:41It's going to get to you.If you care about funds, which almost everybody listening to today's episode is, otherwiseyou wouldn't be tuned into this topic, it's going to get your emotions.Your relationships are going to get you.Your money's going to get you.It's just this important stuff.You're a human being.So I don't think the goal is to get it out of the equation.
03:59I think the goal is to learn how to harness it and learn,when to listen to it and when when to know that it's just noise.But getting it out of the equation, that's superhuman.I actually don't think it's possible nor beneficial.Right. Well, I think that's it.The emotions, you can't turn them off, right?They just are.It's learning how to manage it.
04:16Yeah, that's interesting.You know, I think many of us are familiar with fight or flight.That's something I think many of us understand.You also talk in the book about this rest and digest system,which I thought was interesting.Can you expand just on the physiological importance of this systemand why trying to suppress anxietyactually prevents that rest and digest system from kicking in?
04:39Yeah, there is a compensatory,or I should say, an opposite processto the fire or flight system,which is called rest and digest.It's mediated by a chemical in the bodycalled the Seocoline.If you really want to geek out,you can look that one up,
04:52which is in some ways the opposite sort of of adrenaline,which I'm sure is something you've heard of.Those are your sort of two processes,you know, adrenaline for fight or flight,and then your Cetocoline, which is mediating this rest or digest system.Now, you know, when it comes to investing, I think people often are in fight or flightbecause they're either really excited about something and like aggressive and like, you know,you got that sort of Wall Street energy or they're sort of afraid, nervous, you know, apprehensive,
05:21running, you know, selling, impulsive and that kind of thing.And, you know, channeling the rest and digest system means accepting that you are going to feel anxiousat times and not letting it get the better of you.It's not getting rid of it.If you're going to try to get rid of it,you're going to end up making bad decisions.Rather to know, like, you're going to get walloped,it's going to happen, boom, like adrenaline's going to go off.
05:45It's going to happen.You're human.And then once you accept that and give yourself a minute, five minutes, maybe 10,the acetylone will actually move through your system and you'll start to come.But if you try to get rid of those feelings or be impulsive in order to deal with them,God help you.Like, then they're going to stay.The old adage goes, it isn't what you say, it's how you say it,
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07:12So as a reminder for listeners, what is exposure therapy first?And then secondly, why is it more beneficial to be uncomfortable during treatment?Yeah.So in order to, I would say, overcome clinical anxiety, which is an issue,You know, we've been talking about anxieties and emotion, which all human beings have and can be very adaptive and functional and healthy and positive.At a certain point, anxiety does get the better of you.We call that clinical anxiety or clinical anxiety disorders.That's when anxiety interferes with your day-to-day.
07:45If you have a clinical anxiety disorder, then it's not just about fully embracing and moving into it.I mean, it kind of is, but it's more about going to a professional and getting some sort of help to take things down a notch.At a certain point, anxiety does get intense and gets in the way of your life.That's the line that we're talking about.The problem we were speaking about before, just to be really clear, is that we interpretany anxiety as a problem, and that's not the case.That just means you're human.But at a certain point, there is validity to that.
08:15It does get in the way at a certain point for certain people.Then you're looking at exposure therapy, and this is challenging, where you actuallyface the anxiety head-on in therapy with a code.or a therapist who's going to take you throughand you're afraid of driving, you're getting in that car.Yeah.You're afraid of losing money.You're going to be writing out a script
08:36about what it's like to be dead, poor,and actually going over it in your mind.And it's not fun.But that does build resilience.So, yeah, that's exposure therapy, in a nutshell.Yeah, facing your fear, I guess.That's something we are taught as kids.And, yes, sometimes it's not so easy,
08:53but it can certainly be effective.In the book, you mentioned Stephen Covey's 90-10 principles.Can you talk a little bit about what that is and why that can help someone with social anxiety better understand their interactions with others?Yeah, you know, almost all the time when interacting with other people, it's nonverbals, right?Like most of the stuff that gets communicated, it's not in the words.And this is one of the biggest problems we're having today.I don't know about you and your business, but email communication is like so exhausting today.the number of words that we are just seeing on a screen in front of us.
09:29And, you know, what I started doing, you know, really after the book is, like,giving out my cell phone number and I put it in the bottom of all my emails.And I'm like, if something's not clear, text me or call me.And I hop on a call in three minutes, I hear the nonverbals.I hear the pregnant pauses.I know where people are at.And like, it just smooths over the relationship.So now you can actually get back to business.
09:52Yes, there is a time for that 300 word email.when you're documenting or, you know, stuff's going to get shifted around to lawyers.Like, we all have that.That's fine.But, like, you're dealing with humans.So 90% of our interactions are really not just verbal or not, you're more than that.They transcend it because it's about connection.That makes sense.
10:11There was an interesting case study in the book, I thought, with Madison and her issuewith self-loathing.In your experience, why is it the people who seem to have things going their way, right?maybe they're wealthy or they're successful or they're good looking, but things are going theirway? Why are they often your most challenging clinical cases? It seems like they've got it made,right? Why is it such an issue? That's exactly the issue. And I want to be really clear forthe audience today. The hardest cases that I have ever seen in 25 years of working in this field,they all have the same profile. They are the best looking, best educated, smartest children of
10:49super wealthy parents. And the reason I think,think is because of imposter syndrome. They just, they're never good enough. They never feel likethey've earned it. And often they haven't. They feel like they're, they've never had to actuallyexperience anxiety. And all of a sudden, they're facing some adversity and they're like, I can't. I justcan't. So they change their major. Or they take a leave of absence. Or they go on a gallivanting trip aroundEurope or Asia or wherever in order to escape. Now, often,those kids will come back and they'll work hard and they'll face the anxiety and they'll recognizethat if you're going to do big things in life, it's going to suck emotionally at some point.
11:32And they accept it.And their parents have accepted it and that sort of institutional, I should say, generationaldata can transfer that it's a hard lift.And they can be the most rewarding cases in the world, but also the most challenging.Yeah, you said imposter syndrome.I think we've all probably been there before.I felt that way before as well.there is a section in the book called Anxiety is a Compass.
11:55What do you mean by that?Sure.What are you anxious about?Me?Well, I mean, not to get two-princi-all.You know, I always said when I talk with people and they're getting ready to become parents, right?I'm the father of two daughters in college now.The one thing I realized the second my first child was born, I am never not anxious.
12:17I'm never not worrying about that child.It is just constant and get ready to worry for the rest of your life.Right.And what does it say about you as a father?Well, hopefully it means that I care and I love them very much.Yeah, right.Isn't that a beautiful thing when you think about it?It is.
12:33It's greatest thing ever.And also, when people think about, by the way, it's not always so simple.Like, let's say people really care about money.Why?They want to support their family.They want to have some security.So that way they can bring their best self to their relationships.They want to be able to go on a vacation and actually enjoy.
12:49people's company together and not worry about stuff because they've seen somebody else whodidn't have all that.Like often there's really a very wonderful aspect about it that you care about.It's not always just like, you know, greedy, you know, try to pad your bank accounts.It can be, there can be something else beneath it if that's what makes you anxious, whichis often the case.Yeah.Well, I mean, it's the old added, right?
13:11Money maybe doesn't really necessarily buy happiness, but it affords you a lot of opportunitiesto pursue happiness and be happy and not worry as much.Which is true.And well, sticking with the parenting theme then, I think this worked out very well, what is lawnmower parenting?And how does that contribute to societal anxiety?Yeah.So, I mean, everybody's heard of helicopter parenting.Sure.
13:32Where you sort of hover and wait and, like, the minute there's a problem, you swoop in and, like, pick the kid up.And, you know, that often happens, I would say, in high net worth families, where parents don't want their kids to fail because they had the means and they feel.and they feel that in every other area of their life they're successful,so their kids should have that success too,which often creates some of the dynamics that we spoke about before.Lawnmore parenting takes things a step further,where you're actually paving away in front of that said childby mowing the lawn in front of them.
14:06They don't have to cut through brush.They don't even have to walk through a unmanicured surface.They can simply go behind the lawnmowerand be able to walk on,grass that's, you know, perfectly two inches tall and tickles your feet as you walk, which obviouslydoes not build resilience, does not build self-confidence, does not build a sense of identity,and it doesn't build the ability to withstand the adversity and the vicissitudes of life,which does not bode well in general. You can see how that would be a problem. It also creates
14:38loneliness, because when children are walking behind that lawnmower, so to speak, they're walkingalone, maybe with a sibling, but they're not walking with friends. They're embarrassed. And that lackof connection creates a crisis of loneliness, which is kind of ubiquitous today. Yep, absolutely.There is a part of the book here that really took me into my investing mindset. And you're talkingabout decoupling efforts from outcomes. And it makes me think of how we as investors, we very much,we try to stay focused on the process and focus less on the outcome, right?And investing, we're not going to bat a thousand.We're going to get some things wrong.
15:18But if we can nail down a really good process, that really gives us a chance for consistentand positive outcomes.It's not 100%.But again, this decoupling efforts from outcomes part of the book made me think about thatway.And I wonder, why do you feel like that is a necessary step for reducing chronic worry?The truth is we're human and you cannot predict the future.And that's never going to change.
15:42And, you know, I guess for some that might have a spiritual,frame to it, but even just from a psychological standpoint, that's the truth. We live in thepresent. We do not live in the future. We might live in the past sometimes, but we cannot predictthe future. We do not have a crystal ball. At least I don't. And that means that some degree ofanxiety will be there unless we simply accept that that uncertainty is part of the package and wemarch forward into the darkness, not knowing what will be guided by our values and our principles,as opposed to trying to predict the future, which is futile.And that creates a disparity or a chasm between our experience,
16:22which is being guided hopefully by principles and by methodor an approach in investing or in anything,versus the ability to control it, which we just don't have.Yeah, I'm glad you made that point about predicting the futurebecause investing is very much a forward-looking exercise, right?The market is pricing these stocks based on what they think these companiesare going to do in the future.It's not as much about what they did in the past.
16:45And that's why I feel like for investing, I'm sure, in all walks of life, it is, it's nice tohave that sort of process down.And you don't have to worry about the outcome when you have a solid process.I come from a bit of a finance background.My dad is in finance.I have a brother in finance.And my father always told me, a guaranteed investment, run.Don't walk.
17:05Because it's just a lie.And that guarantee is intended to create a less anxiety in the short run.And it might.but really in the long run, that vulnerability is going to get exposed.Absolutely.These days, I'm all about quality over quantity, especially in my closet.If it's not well made and versatile, it's just not worth it.That's honestly why I love Quince.
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18:23Quince.com slash motley.You write in the book about the power of prayer and how that is a perspective shifter rather than a way to sort of manipulate outcomes.And I wonder, how do you feel like this helps a secular person understand the utility of spiritual?practice. First, something fascinating I've found in my research at McLean Hospital in the HarvardMedical System, which is that over 80% of our patients, and this is in eastern Massachusetts,right, the least religious enclave in the entire union of the United States of America,are using prayer in some way to cope with their distress on a regular basis. And those arefairly consistent, even in the general public, I mean, if you look at the Gallup Pole,
19:07if you look at other, you know, National Pew Forum, if you look at other nationalsurveys that people often do resort to prayer. It's not 100%, it's not even 90, but it's a lot. Andcertainly the statistical majority of people in the United States of America, less so in Europe,even more so in South America and, you know, culturally. But that's sort of the baseline.Part of it is an actual direct spiritual experience of speaking to whatever somebody believes in.But there's another piece of it that I think is just very human. And as you said, not religious,maybe even secular, which is appreciating and embracing the uncertainty and the lack of controlthat human beings have and being okay with it. It's kind of like when I get on a plane.
19:52I'm not flying the plane. The armor door is closed. I'm not going into that cockpit.I'm sitting in my seat. Do I relinquish control at that point to whoever's driving the plane,right, you know, flying the plane, that will greatly improve my experience of flying.If I can just sort of like, okay, time to get a ginger rail and enjoy the ride.And that, I think, is really a psychological aspect of prayer in addition to the spiritualor even religious pieces of it.There is a section in the book called Everyday Heroes.And I wonder, can you talk a little bit about what that means and then why you feel like
20:33some level of anxiety is required in order to live a meaningful life.You know, I ask this question to a lot of people.What's something in your life that you are the most proud of that you accomplished?Oh, well, I mean, I've always said it's my family.Getting married and having my kids, that's the most important thing I'll ever do.Yeah.Getting married, having kids.And is that on the list in the top five things of what has made you anxious?
20:59Yes, I would say.Yes, absolutely.Like I was saying, I never stopped worrying about my kids and the things that are closest to you that you love the most, probably also bring a little bit of worry.Almost always. What you care about will make you anxious.And if you want to be a hero in a certain area, you're going to have to face that adversity and that anxiety.I've never met a super successful person who did not have significant anxiety about their success.And that's often what fuels them because they are really embracing the uncertainty and able to push forward and able to tolerate it.And nevertheless, moving through the universe with that perspective in mind, it's just a healthy way that we have kind of lost in the United States.
21:41I think the more we try to control our feelings, and the more we try to control uncertainty and get our hands around the universe as opposed to sort of accepting our place, doing the best we can.I'm not saying to just leave it all the chance, of course, but doing the best we can with principles and with values in place and then moving forward from there, not trying to control our feelings.or the outcomes, it's just that more healthy approach to humanity.Yeah.Okay, last question before I let you go, and I'm going to kind of put you on the spot here.I have a feeling I know what the answer is going to be.It's kind of like trying to pick your favorite child, I guess, but you have nine toolsthat you talk about in the book, right?
22:17Nine tools to make your anxiety work for you.Now, I feel like all nine tools are meant to work together as a system.But if there were one, if there was one tool out of those nine that you talk about in thebook, is there one that stands out to you as more effective or essential or yourfavorite, so to speak?I'll tell you, the entire thing is really about connection.The first three tools are about connection with yourself.Can you accept your anxiety or do you force it out?
22:44Can you push through the difficult feelings or do you let them defeat you?It's about your body and your soul.The second three are about our connection with others,using it to connect with other people to understand them,to tolerate difficulties, difficult people,and to remain connected to them.And the last one is about our spiritual connection,Learning to really embrace uncertainty and the limits of our humanity and nevertheless move forward in the universe.
23:09But in all three domains, it's about not being isolated and not being alone.And to me, that's really the pinnacle of dealing with anxiety, of thriving, and of being successful.This is really where wellness and leadership kind of come together.Well, he is the author of Thriving with Anxiety, nine tools to make your anxiety work for you.Dr. David Ross-Maron, thanks so much for being with us today.Thank you for the great conversation.Really appreciate this.As always, people on the program may have interest in the stocks they talk about
23:40and the Motley Fool may have formal recommendations for it against.So don't buy ourselves stocks based solely on what you hear.All personal finance content follows Motley Full editorial standardsand is not approved by advertisers.Advertisements are sponsored content and provided for informational purposes only.To see our full advertising disclosure, please check out our show notes.For the Motley Full Money team, I'm Mack Greer.Thanks for listening.
24:03and we will see you tomorrow.
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