Mum's The Word! The Parenting Podcast - ELLIE FLYNN: Why We Need To Talk About Infertility, Mothers Returning To Work & Her Favourite Investigations

Episode Date: December 9, 2024

In this heartfelt and insightful episode of Mum’s The Word, Kelsey Parker is joined by broadcaster and journalist Ellie Flynn for a candid conversation about some of the most important and personal topics facing mothers today.They discuss the vital need to have open conversations about infertility and the emotional toll it takes, why the journey back to work after motherhood is a deeply individual experience, and Ellie’s most memorable and impactful investigations as a journalist.Tune in for an honest and inspiring discussion that shines a light on these essential issues that often go unspoken.A Create Podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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as Dexter's inner voice. I wasn't born a killer. I was made. Dexter Original Sin, new series streaming December 13th, exclusively on Paramount Plus, a mountain of entertainment. Welcome back to M's The Word. I'm your host, Kelsey Parker. Today, I'm joined by journalist, broadcaster,

and most of all, mum, Ellie Flynn. On today's episode, we're chatting all about the importance of fertility checks. I didn't really think through what would happen if I did get those results or what it would mean if I couldn't and I just wasn't expecting I think any kind of... Dealing with assumptions about mother's ability to return to work. There's someone that I've worked with before and they'd made a program and I congratulated them on it and they were like, oh we actually wanted to put you forward for it but you were off at the time. And I know that the time it was commissioned in, I know I was back

at work. I think there's this assumption sometimes that you, oh she's just had a baby and so she won't want to do this. And we're going to be diving deep into some of Ellie's biggest investigations. What I really wanted to do was sort of like almost shake people, particularly male viewers and be like this is the reality that women face, like this is what it's like on a night out, this is what happens, like this is how often women are sexually harassed and what it feels like. So grab a cuppa, get comfy and let's jump into a brand new episode of Mums the Word.

So, Ellie, for anyone who doesn't know you, do you want to introduce yourself? Yeah, so I am a journalist, I'm investigative journalist. I make documentaries mostly for Channel 4 and the BBC and also have an investigative podcast where I basically dig into the biggest issues that are impacting women mostly in the UK but also all over the world. I absolutely love it. I actually don't know where to start myself because I'm like so invested in everything. Do you just get like addicted to everything you're doing? Yeah I get properly properly into it. Are you a proper truth seeker? Yeah I think it's like once I like start sometimes I'll just get like one little bit of a story and it's like, or someone will like say something to me and I'm like, hang on a second. And this is always my personality, even when I was at school, you know, when you've got like that friend that like, finds out a bit of information and needs like get to the bottom of like, how, how it happened or like what's gone on. And that's like where my investigation investigation started basically is being nosy about people and everything in my local area. Well, that's it, isn't it?

And you know what? Everyone has a friend in their friendship group. I always talk about my best friend on this podcast who's also called Kelsey. And she is that person in our group. I'm like to anyone, if you wanna know anything about anyone, go to Kelsey. Go to Kelsey, yeah.

Or she will find it. She finds everything. She's in every Facebook group. She literally knows everything. I'm like how do you have time for this? Yeah that's easy to become addicted. It's like part of my personality. I just can't yeah I can't let things go. I have to like get to the bottom of it. Proper truth seeker. Proper truth seeker I think. I love truth seekers. So we're going to get to the investigations. How would you describe your motherhood journey so far? It has been a roller coaster, I would say. So you have one little boy.

Got one little boy. What's his name? His name's August and he is two and a half. What are you short on August to? Gus. Gus. Yeah, as we call him Gus. I do love that.

Yeah, I mean, he's, Gus. I do love that. Thanks. Yeah. I mean, he's so sweet. He's full on. I can't look out if it's just like normal toddler levels of full on or if he's like particularly full on. Right, give me some examples. Give me some examples and I will tell you. He's just like, he always has to be on the move. Like, he's always like jumping off things.

Like, his favourite thing is like putting all of the cushions from the sofa onto the floor and trying to do dives onto the cushions. Just a boy, isn't he? I think so, yeah. How old was he when he started walking? Eleven months. Really random question, I've just come from an event guys and I was just talking to someone about how old the children were when they started walking. So eleven months, yeah.

He's always been on the move, He was way more active than verbal. I feel like they do one or the other when they're little. Yeah, and I do think boys are way more active. That's what I was saying. Like my little boy, he just hissed. He was like, everything, but could like do the stairs and we never had a stair gate for him because he literally completed the stairs straight away.

Yeah, we're the same. We don't have a stair gate, I know. And I think as well, you know your child, like he is the most sensible little boy that nothing, like he wouldn't even go near the stairs to fall down the stairs. Do you know what I mean? I wish Gus was like that.

Is he not like that? He's not like that at all. He's like literally not afraid of anything. I was sometimes just like, I wish you had like a little bit of a little bit of fear in you about some stuff. He's just loves running into everything head in you about some stuff he's just loves running into everything head first. But then you say that, so my little girl's just like gymnastics and she has no fear and sees no danger so gymnastics is like the perfect

sport because she's not gonna be scared to do the backflip she's in there going excuse me can I backflip yet? They're like calm down. Not quite yeah. Okay perfect maybe I need to get him into gymnastics then that's the the way forward. I just think as well, just let them be. Yeah, I think, yeah, you've got to learn who they are and then, like, I think being a parent, I'm such a different parent to what I thought I was going to be. What did you think you were going to be? I think I thought I was going to be stricter. I thought I was going to be, I just had this idea of me being this really wholesome, sort of like home cooking mom who was just like really strict and he'd be like, you know, really pristine

and I've just got this like feral two year old and I think I'm a lot more relaxed than I thought I was going to be, but I think that's because of who he is. Yeah, and I think it's pick your battles as well. Like even with, I thought I'd be really strict and then certain things I just let go and I'm like, as if I'm letting that go, but.

Yeah, I know, you have to sometimes. And I think we're so much more aware now, aren't we, of like the understanding of the children? Yeah. Do you know what I like of their, like she was doing homework the other day and obviously the homework is, you've got this to come. God. So year one homework, I mean I was struggling with it.

Yeah, I feel like it is hard. But it was at my mum's house and she really started getting so angry and I remember how I felt and I was a bit like I would have let her off doing it. My mum was like, just get it done, just get it done. I'm like, but she's getting really upset. Yeah.

But in the end she did actually finish it and she felt happy that she did that but I probably would have been like, let's pause for a second. Yeah, yeah. That's it. I think it's all these different like, I mean, the amount of advice there is on parenting on Instagram is like absolutely overwhelming. But I think there is- Yeah, what about your investigations? How do you feel about that? Honestly, it's like the biggest investigative job I've ever had is trying to work out how

to be a parent. I feel like I get overwhelmed with the advice and yeah again I like I read so much up on stuff at the start and in the early days and before when I was pregnant I was like okay to make sure that I'm always doing gentle parenting and I'm doing this and I'm doing that. Sometimes gentle parenting just has to go out the window. The gentle parenting doesn't work. It does. I'm really trying to be that gentle parent, but I'm not right now. So get in the car! Yeah exactly. Or when they open your car door on a tree or whatever and you're like, it's my car,

can you not like... Do you know what I mean? There's so much. Yeah. And I think that there's so much advice online, but it's each individual, like, you know, your child is not the same as my children. Exactly. So how can there be like someone out there giving advice? I think so many children are different. You can try different avenues and explore different ways to parent but... And that's so true, it's so trial and error. I've

noticed that with my son, just like, you know, like even just like one week something will work and then it stops working and you have to try something different and whenever you read something it's like this is the way to do it, this is the way that you get them to eat or this is the way you get them to brush their teeth and it's like you try it over and over and over again. So why isn't it working with my son? Because it's not working for your son, I think that's ultimately it isn't it? Yeah exactly. But again as well you'll go through a different phase.

So you'll be at one stage and be like, oh wow, this is a dream. He's not crying loads anymore. Then you will bang smack into another phase and you're like, oh, we're here, okay. Yeah, exactly. It's all, everything is constantly changing. I think that's the thing I didn't expect the most from motherhood is sort of how quickly it changes

and how much it changes. And you just feel, you do just sort of feel like you're on this like, Dogems ride it's just like bang it's like okay I took it without the treadmill, you feel like you're just on the treadmill and you're never gonna catch up on yourself, you're like oh my god so what have been your highs and lows so far? so I think actually I think we're in a good spot now you're at high at the moment

I'm at high at the moment I think I have in a good spot now. You're at a high at the moment. I'm at a high at the moment. I think I have found him sort of really developing his ability to say what he wants and his language has just made everything so much easier. And first of all, it's just funny when they start saying things. When you hear yourself repeated back from them, it's kind of scary. Do I sound like that? Yeah, but he keeps calling me because my boyfriend will shout at me from up the stairs.

He'll be like, Ellie. So now whenever Gus is upstairs, he's like, Ellie, Ellie. And I'm like, oh God. But just like the things that he says, he's like properly putting sentences together now. You can really feel his like character coming out. And I think that feels so rewarding and it's just like really nice to see him getting a personality. So I think that's been

a high. Lowes, I mean there's so many on there along the way. There are, that's honest and that's what we're doing this podcast for because it's not all rainbows and unicorns all the time. Yeah I think for me there was a period where, and maybe it was connected, but just as my work got really, really busy, he stopped sleeping and just was waking up like every 45 minutes.

I feel like they know though. They know. They know. It's like, meh! The little devil horns come out and they're like, meh! Yeah, and I think honestly, I think I was also, I knew it was always coming because he was a perfect newborn. Really? He slept from like and I think honestly, I think I was also, I knew it was always coming because he was a perfect newborn. Really?

He slept from like, from so young, I think he was sleeping through the night for like three months. And everyone was looking at him. And so I was this like smug newborn mum, like, it's like, didn't find it that hard. I was just like, oh, it's okay. Like, you know, he's waking up a couple of times,

but I always knew it was coming for me, whether it was in the form of like another child or him in later years. I was like, I know it's coming. It can't be this easy all the time. And then, yeah, probably when he was about 18 months, he just stopped sleeping. So like sleep regression to the max. And for like seven months. Really? Yeah. And I just kept thinking, because we'd never done, because I'd never had to do anything,

I'd never done any sleep training, never done anything to like, he just sort of fell into a routine. I was like, oh, he'll like, he'll snap back out of it. And it was like, you know, a month past and two months, I was like, he's gonna snap out of it at some point. And it got to the point where I was just, I don't even know how it's possible to be that exhausted, like trying to work and then try and having max two hours sleep a night was so, so hard. But you do get on with it don't you? You do. You can't explain it to people you're like you'll be fine you will get on with it So was he in a cot at that point or was he was it when you put him into a bed?

He was in a cot it started off in the cot and then He did start climbing out of the cot then So then we had to, and this was all in one. It was like, it started in the court and then we moved him into his bed and then he was getting out of the bed and then it was really hard to keep him in the bed. So it just went on, I think for such a long time because there was so many things happening

that were changing and yeah, thankfully he's sleeping. But I do feel like that's a boy thing as well because my little girl, she was just a nightmare when she was born. She cried nonstop, non-stop like non-stop and then she then went to like was a perfect sleeper Bodie Slept like an angel and then as soon as he knew he could get out of bed. That was it. That was it I'm not saying here even Sunday night. I mean they were like a tag team Sunday night It was like one got up for water. The other one went back to bed. The next one got up one

Can I have some water? I'm not why why are we all so thirsty? You've only had a roast dinner, it's not like I fed you up with loads of garlic or crap. And then in the end, they both ended up in the bed with me. And then I'm like, right, you're going back into your bed now. Yeah, yeah. That's it. Because I think you just, and also I think they know, we've got that now, he's starting to really push his bedtime where he'll be like, he'll go to bed and he's like, shouts, he's like, I need some milk, I need some milk. So I give they know we've got that now he started to like really push his bedtime We'll be like he'll go to bed and he's like shout He's like I need some milk and it's a milk so I give him a bit of milk

I think it's like I need my book. Can I tell it in bed with me? So it's like you have to give him his book and he needs another toy and in the end you just have to be like Yeah, I've literally given you everything we've been in every 15 minutes. You're going to sleep That's what I mean gentle parent last so long. Yeah, exactly You are going to sleep because I need my time. Yeah, exactly. So, fertility, talk to me about it. So when we decided to have Gus a year before,

I'd had some fertility tests because my mom went through early menopause, as did my nan. How old were they? So, before 40, my mom, my nan and my auntie all had gone through menopause before they were 40. My mom's not sure exactly when hers was because she was on the implant and so it masked the menopause. She doesn't know exactly when it was, but it was at some point. And they all had kids in their early 20s.

That's what I was going to ask. So we didn't know whether anyone could have kids in their 30s because none of them had done. They'd all had their kids before they were 30. And so I was like, my mom, she just always kind of said, she was just like, you know, it might be something that's worth thinking about. I don't know if there's any sort of tests you can do, but just sort of like keep it in the back of your mind. And so I started looking into it and I had a fertility test done.

So this was when I was 27, I think. That's amazing that you did that at 27. Yeah, it was. Yeah, I think it just felt like, I don't know, I just wanted to, I felt like having more information was never going to be a bad thing. And me and my boyfriend had been together for not ages, but not a short amount of time, like two years. We were just like matching more than that. It was somewhere between like two or three years.

Do you want to have a baby with me? Cause I'm gonna go and get tested. Yeah, exactly. But to be honest, I thought that it was gonna be, I just thought it was gonna come back and say like, everything's absolutely fine. And so I went and had test, and then they test two things, they test AMH, which is a hormone, and then they do an egg count. And both of

mine came back as quite low, the AMH was really low compared to what it should be. And then my account was low as well. And how did you feel? Just so shocked people talk about when you get a, when you get sort of bad news from a doctor or when you have that talk and it's like, it's kind of washing over you and you're not taking in any of the information. It's funny because like I'm a journalist and I'm so used to asking questions and I would never just like sit there and take information and not have something to ask. But I just didn't, I didn't ask a single question.

Cause you didn't think that you were was you were shell-shocked I was completely shocked and I was just I think I was just processing it and taking it all in and I was like okay well what does this mean like does it mean and the doctor was saying things like you know it doesn't mean that you're infertile it just means that you know the indicators are low like you might still be able to have children naturally and easily. Just like with this and the history of early menopause, I would basically, his advice was don't leave it. That's what I was going to say, would they like just get on with it?

It was get on with it or freeze your eggs were basically the options that he gave me. And my boyfriend was sort of taking it all in. I just remember him asking all these questions and me not sort of paying attention to any of it. And- Because also you're a bit like, it's me as well. Yeah, yeah, it feels really, I don't know, it just feels really overwhelming, I think, because it's, I think you, because as well,

I always knew that I wanted kids. It was just, it's never something that I questioned, it's never something that I even really had to think about. It was just, I will at some point have children was how I always thought about it. And I did this test obviously to kind of find out whether there was any risk of this early menopause, but I didn't really think through what would happen if I did get those results or what it would mean if I couldn't. And just I Just wasn't expecting I think any kind of that that no Yeah, any kind of negative news negative in a way But negative is in what where you thought your life was going and you yeah, it was gonna be easy

Yeah, exactly. And so then I was just really I was just really really really shocked and so the doctor said And I was and she was then talking about like egg freezing or embryo freezing. And I was just like, this is way too much information. Like I've been with my boyfriend for two years. Like I thought this was all going to be fine. I don't feel ready to have kids. Can I come back? Yeah. I was like, can I just have a minutes process this? And he was like, yep, we can talk again in however long. And then I think I asked if I could have a follow up test just to be sure and he was like, yeah, we can do run the same tests again in a few months time

and we'll see what the results are because sometimes the markers can change. So I did that and it was a bit better, but it was very similar and he was like, my advice doesn't change. And he was saying as well, especially if I wanted to have more than one that he would yet advise that I that I make a decision sooner rather than later. So yeah, that was that. Me and my boyfriend were like, okay, well, shall we do this? Shall we start trying? Yeah. And it was, I think we said we wanted to do one more Glastonbury actually. Yeah, should do one more Glastonbury.

Should do one more Glastonbury. And so we had, or I think there was something that was planned. It wasn't actually Glastonbury. I think it was a holiday. But we were like, right, we'll give ourselves a year and we will then start trying after that and we'll see what happens. And I mean, I was really lucky that I actually managed to fall pregnant quite easily after that and quite quickly, which then in itself was this whole other shock where I was like, I'm pregnant. Yeah.

Like all of a sudden I was pregnant really quickly and I was expecting it to take months and I prepared myself for like potentially this long, difficult journey. So then I had this. But then also it does go on his sperm. Yeah. So he must have super sperm. Which he did to be fair. Is he really proud of himself?

He is so proud of himself. I've got so much sperm. Well, that's what he said because we both got tested at the same time, and when the doctor was giving us our results, he was going through it all. And I remember that night, we'd been talking about it all day, and I was quite upset and quite overwhelmed,

and we were going to sleep. Just when we went to sleep, I think I was about to fall off, and he was like, did you hear what he said about me though? I was like, what? And he was like, did you hear what he said about me though? I was like, what? He was like, really, really strong swimmers. You're like, well you better use it swimmers and get me pregnant as soon as I want you to. Exactly, exactly. So yeah, now he's like super

proud of himself and yeah, we were lucky that it was easy in the end and it makes me question sometimes, you know, it's made me question since sort of these tests and I think you base so much, you put so much weight on them. And, you know, I had to go private, I wasn't available through the NHS, they're not as far as I'm aware available through the NHS except for in certain situations. And I do now have a question around sort of I don't know not the legitimacy and it should we do some investigate I think I sure I'm up for it I bloody love it I am so like I question everything like that and also I'm such a massive

believer in the mindset so you've obviously got a strong mind but someone else they've been given that information that's in their head, that's in their mind. They're not going to fall pregnant because they've been told they're not going to fall pregnant. I'm just so about how we tell people news. Like with my partner, Tom, with a cancer diagnosis, I said to everyone, do not give him a prognosis. He never ever had a prognosis because he would have lived by that. He would have been ticking off on a calendar. Well, they've told me I've only got three months to live, so I'm going to die then. And when you actually look at

it, when the research Tom did, you had six to 18 months to live with his brain tumor. Tom died 18 months to the day. So I'm all about the power of the mind. And I think giving someone that bit of paper and how you deliver news, I think it's such an importance. I just think that the way we do it in this country is, I don't know, I just think wording could be changed. Yeah. And I think you're right, actually. And I think because as well, we understandably trust medical professionals so much. So I think because as well, we understandably trust medical professionals so much. So I think you put so much weight on what they're saying to you. And so when

you have a doctor who is specializes in fertility, for example, and you know, knows everything about it completely like and I trusted everything he said. So when he says to me, you need to start trying within a year, if you want to have more than one child, then I was like, wow, okay, right, that means that that's the only option available to me. And you know, now I question, actually, did I just take that as gospel because it was a doctor telling me that and because I was vulnerable at the time and because I was overwhelmed. Yeah. Honestly, when I was put in the situations I was put in I questioned everything and questioned every doctor and didn't take everything as gospel. I would go back and ask them and if

you'd have asked Kelsey 15 years ago would she have done that she would have just sat in the room and been like yeah. But you know what I mean it makes you you're on a different journey and that's why I'm such a truth seeker now because I think some things just trigger in your head and give you a light bulb moment and you're like, what's the truth in this? Yeah, 100%. This podcast needs to be called Truth Seekers. That's it. The Truth Seekers.

The Truth Seekers. Yeah, it's interesting that I think you're right and now I think I would approach it so differently in that situation again and it almost feels weird when I look back at myself in that situation and how different I was. But what I'm saying to you is that when you're sat there and you're delivered that news you couldn't even speak because God's spoken to you and you don't know what to say but if you went now you would be completely different. Completely different, completely different. It's crazy isn't it?

It really is, yeah. But no, I mean, I'm, I feel like there's so much to look into in that world because it's, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So do you think you'll go again? Do you want another one or are you happy with? No, I think I would like another one, yeah. So I think, yeah, that is hopefully something

that will happen at some point. Because my mum, she had my brothers later on in life and she had an earlier menopause. I mean, how old are you meant to be when you're going to menopause? I think like 50. Yeah, see mum was like, oh, she's like, thanks, Kelce, for this.

I think she had Maxwell at like 41, so she went into menopause then. Yeah, and that's it, and it's like, it is possible. And I think it's, there's so much emotion tied up with pregnancy and fertility and childbirth. It's like, I think it's, I mean, there's emotion tied up with sort of any kind of like medical diagnosis, but it feels very prominent, I think, in this field.

Just because it means so much to people. And it's like your whole idea of your life and what you thought your life was going to look like. And I think that it can feel like that can be shattered in a second. And so I think that it just kind of like blurs that line between medical advice and fact and science, and then also like people's feelings and emotions.

And I think it can make it really, really complicated. I do think it's well that even the advice they like did he say to you the doctor about a diet or how to boost your? No, it's like freeze your eggs Do you have an insatiable fascination with the paranormal? Brace yourself for the supernatural world is about to reveal all of its secrets on the Paranormal Activity podcast. And who better to guide you through this hair-raising journey than myself, Yvette Fielding, renowned paranormal investigator. Every episode of Paranormal Activity takes you on an unforgettable adventure into the unknown. But that's not all. The true heart of this podcast lies in the stories, evidence and questions shared by our devoted listeners. Will you dare

to join me? Listen to Paranormal Activity with me, Yvette Fielding, wherever you get your podcasts from. It needs a master. Featuring Patrick Gibson, Christian Slater, special guest star Sarah Michelle Geller, with Patrick Densey and Michael C. Hall as Dexter's inner voice. I wasn't born a killer, I was made. Dexter Original Sin, new series streaming December 13th, exclusively on Paramount Plus, a mountain of entertainment. So getting back to work after having Gus, how was that? It was pretty wild. So I went back to work. I'm self-employed, I make documentaries, so

I work on a kind of project by project basis. And as you know, it's like when you're self-employed, it can be really hard because you feel like you don't want to let up on opportunities and something comes and it's like amazing, it's really interesting and you feel like you can't say no to that. So then balancing that with like the time that you need off as a new mom was definitely a balance that I had to find. I've been pitching this documentary for ages about sexual harassment and women's experiences of sexual harassment in the UK. And it involved me going undercover on a night out, pretending to be drunk and documenting the kind of experiences that I had, where I was sort of targeted and harassed and in

one case followed back to a hotel room by someone. Really, really scary, really intense. Felt so passionately about it, had wanted to make it for ages. We'd been pitching, we'd been in the pitching process for ages. Then I fell pregnant and- How dare you? I know. Fertility problems then falling pregnant.

I know. It's like. And then, and then, so then I fell pregnant and it was fully signed off, I think, when I was about, I remember going to, I hadn't actually told the exec that I was pregnant. And I turned up to this meeting, because everything had been done online on Zoom. And I turned up

to this meeting, seven and a half months pregnant. And he was like, oh, and I was like, yeah, sorry, I'm going to be out of work for just like a little bit. But then I'll be back to do this. I don't think he just like didn't know what to do. He was so surprised. I was like, look, I need to take obviously a few months off, but I am happy to kind of come back and do this at like three, four months. And I knew that it was gonna be like a... Go girl.

Yeah. I knew it was gonna be, you know, a few days filming. It wasn't gonna take, it wasn't like I was going back to, and that's the benefit I think of this kind of work, is I wasn't going back to a really intense nine to five job. So was able to do it so I said I'd go back and I ended up doing that shoot when Gus had just turned four months old so I was going I went undercover and I was on a night out so I remember walking it was in Liverpool around Liverpool was kind of like main nightlife area and I would do like an

hour of this drunk walk and then I'd have to go back to the hotel room to pump and so I was like and I'd be having this team briefing while I was like pumping and then I'd go back out again and then I had to go back and pump. It was just this sort of mad contrast between the work I was doing, which was like this really intense Pretending to be drunk like. Yeah. And like undercover with like hidden cameras. Yeah, exactly. Yeah worried about my boobs leaking on the kit. And it was so, so overwhelming. And I think as well because like in that period, your emotions are so, your hormones are still regulating, like your emotions are so heightened anyway. So then having those experiences and

doing that kind of like really, really intense undercover work that early on after having him was yeah it was wild. You remember we can do anything us mums. We can do anything. We can do anything. We can go undercover. I just think that's incredible so your boss was fine about it the exec. Yeah he was and you know what I was so so worried I was convinced that that was it, my career was over. As soon as anyone found out that I was pregnant, I was like, well, that's it, I'm never ever gonna be able to work again.

No one's gonna hire me for anything. And actually everyone that I've been working with was so supportive. And you know, they were really accommodating. They said if I needed to bring my baby to the shoot, that they would accommodate for that to happen. Yeah, it was amazing. They were so, I honestly like, that team that I worked with,

I couldn't like have been more supported from them. And they were very much like, we can do this when you're ready, are you sure that you're ready? This is gonna be like emotionally quite a lot, it's gonna be intense, are you, it's completely up to you when you want to do this. Did you feel like you was ready at four months,

or do you reckon you should have done it a bit? Did you need more time, or were you ready to throw yourself back into it? I think because it was just a few days, I was fine with it. I remember about a month before I had a real wobble where I was crying to my boyfriend

and I was just like, nah, I don't know what I'm doing. Why have I said I'm gonna do this? This is terrible. I don't wanna go. And then by the time it came around, I was actually feeling ready for it. And then by six months, I was like,

definitely ready to be working again. And that's it, I think as well, like maternity leave is so personal. I've got friends that were absolutely sure they wanted to go back to work early, and a year into their maternity are like, I don't ever wanna go back to work, I love being a mom. And then I know people who thought, well, like me, I think I expected to be like,

oh, it's going to be so difficult. I'm going to have to like really rethink the way I work and I'm sure I'm going to want to have loads of time off. And actually I was ready to be properly working again at six months. And you just don't know how you're going to feel. I don't think anything can prepare you for any of it and your emotions and your feelings and again it's all personal isn't it? Yeah it really is. And it's what you do especially as self-employed we just have to jump back in and we don't really have any other option but to jump back in. I mean I've done some wild things with not like obviously when I've just had the kids, I've got my own performing arts school, it was literally like, the kids have to come with me,

that's it, so straight away, I think Avalia was like two weeks old and she was willed in, all the kids were like, oh my God, the baby's here, yeah, and Miss Kelsey's back. So. Yeah, I'm back, I'm ready to go, well that's it, and it is, I think when you are self-employed, you feel like you've got to keep going

because you do sort of have to keep going. And I do also think that there are things where, you know, I heard about a program, there's someone that I'd worked with before, and they'd made a program and I congratulated them on it. And they were like, Oh, we actually, you know, we were wanted to put you forward for it, but you were off at the time. And I know that the time it was commissioned in, I know I was back at work. And it's I think there's this assumption sometimes that you, oh,'s just had a baby and so she won't want to do this or like so sure what to be off The choice for me though. Yeah This or not and I would have liked to have done it

Yeah, exactly. I would have done and I think that I mean you feel shame either way, don't you? I think that's like the mom guilt is so, so real. And, you know, I often felt guilty for like wanting to be back at work. And like I was doing it wrong somehow because I wanted to be back at work. But it's a really important part of my life that I really enjoy. I think that's what you can't be prepared for, the mum guilt. And everything you do, we're judged for everything we do. Going back to work too soon.

Not going back to work, Leaving your kids with a child, mind of having a nanny. Going to private school, going to normal school. It's all wrong. State school. Like anything you do, feeding your kids McDonald's,

feeding them broth. Do you know what I mean? It's like, we're judged on everything. Yeah. So that's it, you just have to do you, don't you? Yeah, that's it. You just have to do you didn't know that's it. You do you got to turn off you got to just completely ignore. I just don't pay any attention to I mean, I will say that's part of why I keep my private life

very private. I was gonna ask. Yeah, for lots of different reasons. Partly the work I do. He's not on your social media at all. Not at all. No, actually, this is like the first one I've probably told anyone his name. We can beep that out. That is fine. But I keep him completely off my social media. I keep it really private. I don't talk about it that often. And I think I want to talk about it more because I also, I don't know, I want other people who are mums or becoming mums to know that like it is possible to have different parts

of your personality. Ellie's moving into a different path as well now. She's now gonna be doing some investigations on being a mom. Exactly, exactly. But I think it is important to know that you can have sort of that balance within motherhood. It's not always easy to find, but it is possible.

But yeah, I keep him and my private life very private. And I think that that's part of it as well is I just don't want to open myself up to other people's opinions on it. Judgment and opinions and how they would do it. It's like, well, I'm doing me. So talking of work, what's been your favorite documentary that you have done?

My favorite, I mean mean they're all so intense that favourite feels weird as a word but it's like I think I am most proud of. Yeah most proud. Either the sexual harassment, so I've recently made one on sexual harassment in Magaluf which was similar to the sexual harassment film that I did a few years ago here in the UK. And I think just like what I really wanted to do was sort of like almost shake people, particularly male viewers and be like, this is the reality that women face. Like this is what it's like on a night out. This is what happens. Like this is how often women are sexually harassed and what it feels like. And so we did that using this undercover reporting

in a way that I think feels really stark and you kind of like can't argue with what we capture on those films. And the reaction to both of them has been really strong. I think people feel either, it's funny, I get like women messaging me being like, oh my God, thank you so much. You know, I had this experience, I had that experience.

Like I'm so glad that someone is doing something to show what it can be like. And then I have men being like, oh my god, thank you so much. You know, I had this experience, I had that experience. Like I'm so glad that someone is doing something to show what it can be like. And then I have men being like, oh my god, I had no idea. And it's like interesting because you think, how did you have no idea? We've been talking about it for so long. Do you think some men don't know? They don't know how we feel even walking back on a night. Yeah. Even even now, like you know when you're older and you've got your house and you've got whatever, even when I get dropped off by a cab, like I had a really nice cab driver the other day

and he went, I'm not leaving until I see you walk through your front door. I was like, how nice is that? He was like an older guy. I thought, oh, that's so cute. But he obviously, he's dropping young girls home, isn't he, every night? So he's dropping young girls home, isn't he every night? So he's he's he's seen

I yeah I think some of them just some just don't know at all or don't realize and so I feel like it's I feel like these Two films have really resonated in a way. That's like it makes you feel like you're doing something good Do you feel like when you did Magaluf? It was worse than when you did it in Liverpool because people are on holiday and it's different. What I found about Magaluf is that it felt really coordinated. It was groups of men who I think had gone there together knowing that there were going to be young, drunk, vulnerable girls. We found that younger girls were often targeted more as well in Magaluf.

Like, is it in 18? Yeah, at a young girl. We did a scene where we had another reporter who told people she was 15 and some of the responses were really, really awful. I think A, there's a culture in those kind of holidays I think where people behave in a way that they might not at home and I think they turn a blind eye to things or they think, she's here and she's drunk and so why not yeah exactly I think there's a real problem with attitude and yeah we found that that a lot of the harassment was quite coordinated and it felt really premeditated but like from just normal groups of lads that have gone on holiday together yeah tourists from like all over from all over Europe but yeah normal normal groups of lads that have gone on holiday together. Yeah, tourists from all over Europe. But yeah, normal groups of guys. And that's what's wild

about it. It can be anyone. And I think people don't... People have this idea of what someone who sexually harasses someone looks like or acts like. And it's like, oh, I wouldn't know anyone like that. But the statistics suggest that you might do Ray is never going out or going on holiday or doing anything I know I can't be that parent. Also as a boy mom, I feel like I'm gonna be so intense Conversation last night was like as a boy mom like I am NOT gonna be that deluded mom that's like Oh my son's so perfect. Yeah. I feel like some boy mums are. Oh, I feel like so many boy mums are. Me and my friends always talk about boys and their mums.

And I'm like, part of me is like, I really don't wanna be like that. But as a boy mum, you do. But also, as a boy mum, I'm a bit like that, maybe. There's this real conflict. But I just don't wanna be that mum to to be like, oh my son's so perfect. Yeah, yeah, oh my perfect boy. My mum's not like that, my brothers haven't really had the girlfriends yet, but we will see.

But I feel like even with them I'm not going to be like, oh they would never do that. I'm like, no they probably are. They probably would do that, yeah. Yeah, my brother gets an easier time. We don't think the same as men. No, we don't. This is a whole different topic. Sorry, Tom.

We don't think the same as you. We don't, we don't. Right, tell me more about your podcast. So I've got a new podcast which is out at the moment. It's called the bunny trap and it is a 10 part investigative series looking at allegations of sexual abuse within the glamour industry. So specifically looking at one photographer who reportedly took advantage of a number of models. So it's kind of their story but then it's also a deep dive into

the glamour industry and what it looks like now and how the models that enter that world are exploited. It is really, really shocking. Even if I do say it myself. I just like did not see the things that we uncovered. I just did not see coming at all. It really took me by surprise. And I mean, I've done so much work on women's issues and women's safety. So for me to still be shocked, I think says a lot.

But do you feel like with this and the glamour world, is this like people that have entered it recently or 10 years ago, 15 years ago, 20 years ago, is it like all different? It's recently. So like part of the series is also like, what is the glamour industry now? Like obviously. Yeah, what is it now? We don't have lads mags anymore. So it's- What is it? What is it like all different it's recently so like part of the series is also like what is the glamour industry now like yeah what is it now we don't have lads mags anymore so it's social media and it's only fans basically so I

I actually just can't cope with some people I found someone yesterday and I was watching them on Instagram and I don't understand how their profile is still on Instagram with what the girl was doing but she was so young. I was like, during you're just watching you're like, is this real? But she's obviously got on OnlyFans and she's making a lot of money from her OnlyFans. Yeah, and then she was posting the same stuff on Instagram. I can't believe she's not been taking down.

She had three different accounts. But I mean she was on a plane and she was doing some deeds on a plane Instagram I'm surprised because they're normally really strict. I know I don't understand yeah I was just so you're then down this rabbit hole aren't you? yeah. I'm like how is this young girl thinking it's okay and what sort of money are you actually making? They do make loads of money don't they? Well some do some don't. Again that's something that we look into is like how people are making their money, how much money are they actually making. The magazines, there are still magazines

that exist and they're still a big draw for some people and you know some of the girls will be happy, you know they'll be on OnlyFans, they'll consider themselves sex workers, they will you know be happy doing whatever it might be on OnlyFans. Then you have other girls who just want to be in magazines. And they do still exist in a way that's different, kind of like nuts and loaded or whatever you might remember from back in the day. But the whole industry is still there and still has a massive draw and it is so unregulated.

And nobody is looking looking at those girls. Is it just seedy? It's yeah. And I think as well there's this like, there's so much stigma attached to it that people just don't take the women seriously. And that's what came up time and time again where I was hearing these like horrific stories, horrific allegations. And you know, I would say like, did you, you know, were you going to speak to the police?

Were you going to like, you know, did you speak to anyone about it? And there's so much shame where they're just like, well, what were they going to say? Like, I'm a glamour model. I'm going to be blamed for it. Everyone's going to think it's my fault. So sad. It really is. And that just came up time and time again.

Yeah. It is just shocking, isn't it? Well, guys, go over and listen to that. I'm definitely going to be listening to it for sure I just find everything like that so fascinating yeah it's yeah I mean I feel so lucky to do the work that I do it is really interesting and I think that's also you know why I wanted to keep doing it even after becoming a mum it's like this is so important to me and I enjoy it so much you've got to do what you love yeah exactly and exactly, and I'm lucky to, to be fair.

You've been amazing. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you. It was so nice. And that's a wrap on another episode of Mums the Word. Thank you so much for joining us today. And we were joined by the amazing Ellie Flynn. It was great hearing about her journey into motherhood, the importance of fertility checks

and her experiences of returning to work postpartum and her most important investigations. Don't forget to leave us a review, follow us on socials at mumstheword.com and subscribe to our brand new YouTube channel. Remember to keep sending in your own parenting stories. We can't wait to hear them until next time. I'm Kelsey Parker and this is Mums the Word. And we'll be back with another episode. Same time, same place next week.

Same place, next week. inside of you. It needs a master. Featuring Patrick Gibson, Christian Slater, special guest star Sarah Michelle Geller, with Patrick Dency and Michael C. Hall as Dexter's inner voice. I wasn't born a killer. I was made. Dexter Original Sin. New series streaming December 13th. Exclusively on Paramount+. A mountain of entertainment.