Mum's The Word! The Parenting Podcast - FERNE MCCANN: Why I'm So Passionate About Breastfeeding

Episode Date: December 1, 2025

This week on Mum’s The Word, Georgia Jones is joined by former TOWIE star, I’m A Celeb favourite and all-round powerhouse Ferne McCann for a warm, honest and inspiring chat about mum life, personal growth, and everything she’s been building behind the scenes.Ferne opens up about why she’s so passionate about breastfeeding and breaking the stigma around it, reflecting on her own experiences and the pressure so many mums still feel.She also celebrates 10 years since her iconic I’m A Celeb jungle journey, sharing what she learned from the experience and why it still means so much to her.Georgia and Ferne dive into her booming wellness and lifestyle projects, including Shoorah and Food With Ferne, and how she juggles it all with being a mum to fussy eaters at home (with plenty of relatable stories!).Ferne also speaks candidly about how therapy changed her life, helping her grow, heal and show up as the best version of herself.And of course, they chat all about her brand-new podcast Every Cloud, which is set to inspire and uplift listeners everywhere.A heartfelt, honest and motivating conversation for every mum who’s navigating the chaos and trying her best.A Create Podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back to Mum's the Word. I'm your host, Georgia Jones, and today I am joined by the amazing Fern McCann. You all know her through her time on The Only Way is Essex, and I'm a celebrity, but she has a real love of food, health and beauty, and most recently, with a passion project app, Food with Fern. Fern co-founded Shura, the wellness app that promotes personal growth and mental health, and it is now one of the most successful. apps in that genre. And she also hosts her own podcast, Every Cloud, where she has honest conversations about lifestorms and silver linings. So grab a cup her, get comfy and let's jump in to a brand new episode of Mum's the Word. Fern, welcome to Mum's the Word. Thank you so much for having me. It was a long time coming. Yes, I'm so happy that we're finally here. Me too. Sat down having this chat. She's the enigma and she was just going from place to place because you're a busy girl.

Busy, busy. Yes, we had it locked in and then the date had to be moved and yeah. But I just feel like it's divine timing. Like everything is supposed to happen exactly as it should. I'm a big believer in that. Yeah, so do you know what? So am I? More and more the older I get, I'm like, look, listen, what can you do?

Yes. It's meant to be. Divine timing. Divine timing. So we're going to get straight into it. We're going to talk about a topic that actually now, for some reason, and I don't know why, is taboo breastfeeding. Yes. So the most natural thing in the world, but for some reason, people like to get on their high horses about it, right?

So your journey, tell us about your breastfeeding journey. Actually, with both your kids, you've got Sunday, who is A and Finti, who is Howard, too. She's two. So, yes, it's a deeply controversial topic. And I get it. I get it for so many reasons. You know, people, mothers who, you know, couldn't do it, who wanted to, they find it triggering when they see something on social media and lots of different reasons. Of course, when you have a baby, there's this force, which I like to call the mum police, that come out and they're like, I remember having Sunday actually.

And I posted her all the time on social media. Someone's like, you know, you're not holding her head. properly. You're not supporting her neck. That baby needs a hat on or she's wearing a coat in the car seat and all of this. You're like, whoa. And I think people are just incredibly passionate about how they think you should pair your child. But of course, I just think whatever floats your boat and for me, yes, I am passionate about breastfeeding, but that doesn't make me anti-formula. No. With Sunday, I breastfed until she was six months. And then because of like, circumstances she had to go to nursery there was only so long i could bring her along with me

and obviously we had my reality show so a lot of my work consisted of me being a single mom so she come with me everywhere but then it got to a stage where it's like right okay i couldn't turn up to this morning with sunday as she was getting older so i had to stop but it just made complete sense i always knew that i wanted to do it because especially being a single parent And I think a lot of people like, oh, they have that dilemma. I'm not sure if my partner. My partner wants to be involved, hence why they do the bottle feeding. But for me, it just made complete sense.

Yeah. And I do feel like with how, not always, but I find that how your mum, you know, my mum's very involved in the best way. She's brilliant. But she breastfed me and my sister. And I just always wanted to do it. So, yeah, that was a really. really easy transition of course like when your milk comes in it is wild i couldn't get my head

around i feel like every mom that has breastfed or not because your milk comes in regardless has got that mirror selfie i was just so i was like i really hope she says a picture of their tits yes i really hope that's what she's going to say i was being conservative but yeah a picture of your tits that look like boulders yeah and you send it in your girls WhatsApp group like what on earth have a look can you believe it? Can you believe these are my boobs? I looked like Pamela Anderson. I was so loving it.

But like then the amount of milk that actually drips out, I was like, no, this can't be normal. But anyway, Sunday was a really great journey. I was a nervous breastfeeder because the relationship with my boobs and how I, you know, I was a, I guess, I felt young. I was 27. Yeah, that is young. Yeah. And I just felt like, oh, I felt so embarrassed to breastfeeding in public. I remember being at Blue Water Shopping Centre and going to the toilets and all of that.

And then when it come to Finty, I was just like, we've got a six, eight year age gap. I was so excited for it and just so looking forward to it. And it was slightly more problematic because she had a really fast delivery. I mean, she shut out that canal. Did she? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We had a home birth and the midwife didn't even make it.

Oh my gosh. Yeah, we had an ambulance turn up, which all sounds really dramatic. But as soon as the paramedics walked in, I released and just, yeah, let go. And she came. It was really quick. Wow. Because me and Laurie was sitting, sorry, I'm digressing here, but me and Laurie was sat in the Thai restaurant. And I was like, right, having contractions thinking, okay, was Sunday, I had the full day.

So I'm just going to just have some nice spicy Thai curry and just, and yeah, had to literally leave. Did your waters break at all? Or did you see, your contractions just started? I can't remember with Finty if the water, with Sunday my waters had to be popped when I went into hospital and I was eight centimetres dilated and she'd come two hours later. Wow, right. I done the majority of my labour like at home.

Yeah. Me and my mum, Jilly, we went on a hike. It was all, yeah. Oh, so your mum was your birthing partner first time round. Yes, with Sunday. And then with Finty, it was my mum and Laurie, which was just all kind of comical. Oh, so you had your mum there as well?

Yeah. Yeah. Was Laurie happy with that then? Oh, there was, I had to convince him. Did you? Yeah. And I had, I have no question. Look, like I said, whatever floats your boat, each to their own.

But I find it's strange when people don't want them. Yeah, yeah, no, I do know what you mean. And they're like, they just want it. You and your partner. I'm like, I couldn't think of anything worse than just me and Laurie. It's funny because I was like, just, it should be something just for me and, not Cooper, me and Danny. But actually, when I really think about it, whenever I'm ill or,

or something hurts or I need a cuddle. It's always my mum, my girl, too. Absolutely. So it seems quite strange not having her there when you're probably in the most pain you'll ever potentially be in in your life. Exactly. Exactly. And my mum and Laurie, to be fair,

but they are, I would want to be in the trenches with them. Like my mum is in a crisis and I guess not that giving birth is, but it is a trauma. Yeah. That she is just so calm and she's a sports therapist. She was, like, massaging my back and just absolutely heavenly. But, yeah, I did have to convince him. And I had to convince him to have a home birth, but it was one of the best things that I did.

Did you have a pool at home? Oh, I didn't make it. There was Lorry blowing up the pool, setting the ambiance, and then I got out of the bath. And then, you know, gravity took its course. And I was, like, bent over the sofa waiting for the paramedics. And then... Did you give birth, like, on your knees then rather than on laying... Yeah, both times.

like almost over the back of a chair. Yeah. So, yeah. I went primal. I went like hands and knees. Yeah, it's nice. No part of me wanted to lay on my back. Because you're not meant to, are you naturally?

No. You're not meant to lay on your back. Now, don't quote me on this, but I feel like this. You've got to say about Henry O. Yes. Oh my gosh, yeah. Apparently he wanted to see in its full glory. Yeah.

But I don't know how true that is. Well, I've heard that as well. Like it's a per. It's from like the king. being, not the current king, just FYI, King Henry the 8th, wasn't it? Being like a pervy old man. Yeah. Wanting to watch the women give birth by that.

Or just all for his own, you know, to have the best view. Yeah. Actually, it's like, you know, thinking of himself instead of the women. Of course. But yes, with the extreme fast delivery, we learned with having a breastfeeding specialist. Yeah. Because she just wasn't latching. And of course, there's no, you can't.

can't compare no matter how many videos I watch and the rugby ball hold and then this and that and then trying to get the nipple up to the roof of the mouth and I was like she just slips off and then we found that actually her jaw because we went to see we went to get her cranial therapy. Oh yeah. With a not a physio it's a an osteopath path and and her jaw was so tight because of the fast imagine like that you're the head yeah exactly so she she she They checked for tongue tie and all of that. And they had like two, she had two sessions. It's the cutest thing.

And then, you know, obviously now we've had a very successful breastfeeding. Both were successful, but I'm still breastfeeding. I can't quite believe it when I say it out loud. Still breastfeeding. Do you get people making nasty comments about you still breastfeeding? Because she's two now, right? Yeah. She's two and a quarter.

And I get the, it's always from this one lady, but I just don't rise to it. I've seen it all. and I get the controversy and how it mixes up different emotions and I had to have a conversation with myself because I always caveated every post where I say, you know, like I understand that this is triggering for something and I'm like, what am I doing? Like we're not going to please this post.

I'm really sorry if you had that experience but this post is for the breastfeeding community that maybe expect mothers want to explore breastfeeding. They've never thought of it before. those that want to throw in the tail because it is bloody hard and I don't think that there's enough education about the hurdles, especially in the first few months of those hurdles that you have to leap over to eventually really reap the rewards of breastfeeding because, you know, you could develop mastitis. It's the sleepless nights. It does feel like it's all

on you. The crack nipples. It can be toe-curlingly painful. It can be, you know, the cluster feeds, the latch. It's a lot. And especially if you've got other children, it can feel like a full-time job yeah and team with exhaustion like anything seems harder when you're knackered doesn't it like everything is so much harder and they don't tell you about all these things that come with breastfeeding no in this like lovely world you just expect that just to pop your little baby on the boob and that's it and it's as simple as that yeah and it's not honestly i could not believe i had blisters on my nipples oh however i can feel the pain oh god can you remember that Oh, I mean, you're still doing it.

So, yes, you can't. Well, not now. But it's not hurt now, right? Because your body does get used to it. Like, I could, the only way I could describe it was like, you know, when you're wearing a new pair of shoes and they give you blisters to start off with. And then eventually, they stop giving you blisters because you've worn them in. But this is a really good point. And what I would say to people that, you know, oh, I tried and I couldn't do it after two weeks.

Yes, it's hard. Yes, it is bloody hard in those first few months. however it is a skill that you and your baby need to learn now you wouldn't give up on your baby if they don't get potty training which we're currently going through at the moment you wouldn't give up on you know when they're trying to crawl or trying to say you you're full of encouragement so it's that skill that you need to to continue and then you will get to the other side yeah but it's like anything that is is worth having and worth you know reaping the benefits It's always difficult at the beginning.

Yeah, it is. Like I, and that's the thing, like, and it is difficult because we do. As breasts, as mums that did breastfeed, we feel guilty that we could do it and that other people can, which we shouldn't because everyone has their own journey. And, you know, if you can't do it or you don't want to do it, that's also fine. And like it is, it's funny, isn't it? Because you do feel like you've got to caveat it. But as a breastfeeding mum, I would say that was one of my favorite, actually one of my favorite experiences.

Also, I would say also one of my least favourite, purely because Cooper wouldn't take a bottle. So Sunday had this. I had the lovely connection with him when I had that time with him where I just was fully focused on him. But then also I had that time where I'm like, I just need a break and I need to be able to leave for longer than half an hour. Because he was a hungry baby as well. So he was constantly feeding. And I couldn't. So then I had that level.

of like feeling trapped as well. Yes. But what we didn't do was give up on trying to give him the bottle. So that's like what you were saying. Did you get it in the end? Four months in. Yes. He got it.

It's the same as Sunday. And I, because that as well, sucking from a bottle and sucking from a breast is again, two different skills. Yeah. But exactly the same as Sunday. She eventually got it. With Finty, I knew I wanted to introduce a bottle quite soon. And the community midwife was like, I mean, have you ever heard such a thing.

She's going to get nipple confusion Oh my God, honestly I swear to God I wish I'd never been told about nipple confusion because I was so concerned about nipple confusion that I did that thing

that were like, wait six weeks before you try a bottle which I did, I did everything by the book oh god yeah I introduced a bottle two weeks and I did just want to just announce this I did try her with formula

because I wanted to do the mixed feed and then she projectile vomited and I gave up, I thought. Nope, she don't like it. But look, I mean, the whole formula breast feeding thing, all I will say, and there's this whole thing that breast is best, and then people argue that fed is best, ultimately, and I'm not just talking about breast milk versus formula,

there is nothing on this planet nutritionally that comes close to breast milk. Nothing. It is entirely unmatched. And for that alone, I encourage as many expectant mothers to try it. A, the convenience, B, the benefits are profound and also it's free. Yeah.

Like it's so, it's completely free. I know, I always, and sterile instantly. Like that's it, you don't have to do all the sterilising of bottles. I remember when Cooper did eventually take a bottle. I was like, wow, this is a job in itself, sterilising all these bottles. And then it gets, gets like, however long down the line, you're like, Should we just shove them in the dishwasher? Should we just...

Surely that's sterile? And then they all turn orange because you put it in with like spaghetti bolognais pans or something. That's like our Tupperware. Me and Fern were having a great conversation about Tupperware before this podcast started. Oh gosh.

That really does. It's like a sign that you're getting on when you start to talk about Tupperware. Like the drawer is getting out of control and our conversation reminded me that I need to have a good clear out. Yeah. She's going to send me a piece. picture of a Tupperware covered later. I can't wait. I'm excited. It's overflowing.

Fern, what I think about to touch on actually was, so obviously we, I feel like there's quite a few things in our lives that have been a bit parallel. So you did I'm a slab. Yes. My husband did I'm a slab. How was your experience being in there? And because you would have had Sunday at that point, but did you have Sunday? No. You didn't have Sunday. So I did the jungle 10 years this year. Stop it. I did it in, um, 24. 15, I did it. Right. Yeah, I was 25 and now I'm, obviously, I'm 35.

Oh, my goodness. And if you should, Sunday. Yes. Yeah. So she can't watch when I ate the spider and the snake. She is just complete. I mean, it's all low behavior, isn't it? The jungle made my phobia of and fear of spiders and snakes even worse.

Did it? And that has rubbed off on Sunday. Stop. Did it really make it worse? Yes. Yes, yes. Because it's the opposite for Danny. Oh.

And the opposite for Cooper. So Cooper used to be really scared of, like, insects. Since Danny was in the jungle, it's the other way around. He's now not scared because he saw his dad doing it. Yeah. But the jungle, how fab, did you get to spend the three weeks in the Vazarchi Hotel? We didn't get the Versacee. We got the...

Oh, you're joking. No, no. It was a very nice hotel. I must say that was a nice hotel. Maybe budgets have slipped. No, it was a nice hotel. However, it's at right. For anyone that doesn't, like, realize this,

it is a job in itself being out there as a family member. Yeah, because you've got to go into the jungle every day. Oh, you've got to get up at 4.30 every morning to them be in the jungle by 5.30, because obviously it's all being shot live back in the UK, isn't it? Who was out there with you? Was your mum there? My mum, so this is hilarious.

My mum got offered, you get offered two people to go in economy or one person gets to fly business. and my mum was like, I'll go by myself, thank you. So she had the life of luxury. She spent three weeks in the Vazachi Hotel. Yes, going into the jungle every day, but then you get back, you've got the rest of the day, living our best life.

I mean, you say that, but I'd just done a house move, and I had Cooper with me. Yeah, entirely different. Who was jet-lagged, and I couldn't keep that child awake, and then on a night time, that was it, wide awake. So I was so on my knees. And Danny, I remember. I remember Danny saying, you didn't cry when you came into the jungle to surprise me. I was

exhausted. So I'm really sorry I didn't cry, but I was on my knees at that point. Did your mum come into the jungle then to see you when you were in there? Oh, did you not do that? No, they didn't know. They didn't do that. No. But that was an experience. Oh, right. So that's really interesting that Sunday now has a fear because you did. Yes. Well, were you, I can't remember, were you quite screaming when you were in there. So screaming, and I've done loads of trials because we had Lady C. Iconic. Oh, iconic. No, she is wild.

Like, what a character. And I just feel like it was such an iconic year. But I had this really surreal moment where, because I was actually like a substitute, I didn't know I was going in until two weeks before. Were you? Do you know who you substituted? I do, but I would never say publicly. But, yeah, they, you know, they do psych tests and medical tests.

have you. So I went in with Spencer Matthews from Made in Chelsea, me from TOWY and Vicki Patterson from Julie Shaw. Yeah. So they did this trio rivalry reality TV shows at the time. And we went in as latecomers and it honestly changed my life. Like I was able to leave Taui, which I really wanted to do. Yeah. Yeah. Just completely propelled my career. I was in there till the end. You came third. I came third. Absolutely smashed it. And it was just brilliant. And I just was in there.

Like, this is a show that I've watched growing up. And it just felt so surreal being on that hammock and just, yeah, like, Lady C. I felt like I was watching the TV show when she'd go to Tony Hadley from Spandau Valley. He was like, you piggy oink. And to Duncan Bannetheim, the dragon. She was like, you picky, like just to having argument. And it was bizarre. Yeah.

And then with Annette coming in. I really was sort of in my element, not necessarily starstruck, but just dazed and just like, wow, this is just crazy. Yeah, because when do you ever have an experience where you all live together in a jungle doing really random tasks? Yeah. And have that amount of time, just you with a load of other celebrities. Oh, I had the best time. Yeah. I had the best time.

And I'm so inquisitive by nature. Like I'm an ex-hairedresser and I'm, you know, loved a small. talk so I just lapped it up and was like moving from person to person and chatting to them and it was honestly amazing I look I cannot believe it's been a decade but I look back at that time and I just it's just filled with fond memories that is so lovely to hear like it's so so nice that you look back at something and you're like that actually was the making of me yeah change my life change your life isn't it lovely when you like realize something's done that to your life you're Like, that was the making of me, I sure.

We talk about divine timing. I was meant to be there because, you know, sometimes things happen and you can't quite explain it. My agent got a call. I was a very keen person on Towey. I always wanted to be amongst it. Yeah. I loved the showbiz element of it.

I always wanted to be famous and had this desire to be in the limelight. So when I got on that show, anything like, oh, do you want to do the PR or we've got a press day or do you want to go? coming to the ITV, what it used to be on the South Bank. And I was like, yes, just said yes to everything. And I was a massive fan of I'm a celebrity and Joey was doing it the year before.

And I was doing a press day with him. I wasn't even meant to be doing the press day, but one of the TOWY girls was like, hung over, couldn't be bothered. You don't get paid for these things. And I was like, if we send you a car, do you want to do it? And I'd not done it for very long.

I was like, yeah, I'd do it. Yeah. And just was there, was in the room and then got talking to the producers. and was just enthusiastic. And so I'd talk to them about the jungle and I was like, oh gosh, I've watched it since I can remember Yuri Geller

when he bent the spook, all of this. And then I got invited to go out there on the after show with Laura Whitmore. Yeah, yeah. Oh God, I was doing it, yeah. That was my first live TV experience and I was absolutely pooping my pants and it was just amazing

and I just knew like I had this in and knowing Like, I love this. I love this world. And yeah, a few years later, ended up on the show. So, yeah, divine timing. Yeah. Well, you do the world very well. You come across very well in this world of celebrities that don't...

Oh, thank you so much. Always come across that well. You definitely are exactly what you see. Thank you. Online. That's very nice. So, well done for you. Thank you.

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So you're also, let's not miss the fact that Fern is an app queen. She has, you've got two apps. I do like developing. She loves to. She's a developer. I wouldn't recommend it because it's bloody hard work. Yeah. So we launched Shirar, our mental health, well-being, We initially we launched it, which I had to learn all these terminology, B to C, which is business to consumer.

Right. But now it's business to business B2B. So it primarily, I mean, you can still download it and use all the features anyone can. Yeah. But that was a real learning experience because I had this idea. I'm very spiritual and into my well-being, mental health, affirmations and all of this. And I wanted to create something. And my partner, Laurie, is a real tech head.

And he now develops, yeah, health tech, digital health tech businesses. Oh, wow. That's his thing. So he's got loads of different projects. So we did that. And then it's evolved into an absolute beast that he has just run with. So when you say business to business out, does that mean like businesses use that app within their? Exactly that.

Right. So it's called EAP. I mean, this is. is probably really boring for like, I've, I found it boring. That's all right. I'm allowed to, yeah. No, we don't have to find every bit of our job. No.

Here's the thing, okay, the app and what it represents, and I'm still very much involved, but it's Laurie's baby now. You know, I was a founder, but I'm not doing the day to day. Because having a startup, you know, initially you don't earn any money. So I said to Laurie, I was like, you're on this full time. My time is now stressed. I want to get back to like being the creative and being on TV and doing all my affiliations and creating content.

Yeah. And I had other desires and projects that I wanted to do after finishing my reality show. So I'm still involved with the partnerships and like the face. Yeah. But not the day to day. But EAP is like employers assistant programs. So it's like to look after, you know, big corporate company, any, any company look after their, their staff's mental. health so i mean it's it's incredible and we're very proud of it but it really is lorry who has

turned it into you know just the success that it is and now obviously i've got my food app you've got your food one which i'm really interested yes actually because i have a very fussy eater okay yes so you tell us a bit about the app okay so the app is called food with fern I was a bit like Is the name quite like self- I love it It does exactly what it says on the tin Because you know

I feel like I have self-doubt all the time And then I'm like Are you sure this is right Like and getting everyone's opinions My Instagram's called the Georgia edit I cringe whenever I love that Yeah but I'm like what Who does she think she is

That's quite self-indulging Doesn't it like Fuba Fern To the Georgia Edit I head of everything It does what it says on the tin It is my library of all of my exclusive recipes. And I'm really proud of it because for so long, you know, food is my absolute top hobby.

It's my love language. It's my soul. You've been on a cooking show? I did do Best Home Cook. Did you? Yeah. Did you do it with Harry? You didn't do with Danny's bandmate.

Harry did you? No. No. Maybe that wasn't what he was on. Did he do master chef or something? Danny did MasterShare. Okay. Yeah.

I mean, I'd be brilliant on that show. Oh my God. I'm blowing my own tram. I think that's your next show. Would you do it? Yeah. I mean, I am, I am, I'm gringing. I am a really good home cook.

That's incredible. Oh my God, you need to do it. I am such a good home cook. I'm not a chef for it. It's completely entirely different. Yeah. And that is what Master Chef is. It's more.

Oh, I don't know. Danny, Danny, he's really good at cooking. But his is also similar to you, like home cooking, not like bougie, you know. But yeah, love to cook growing up, food was always that the centre of the kitchen was like the heart of our home. Yeah, yeah. And my sister's brilliant, my mum's brilliant, my dad's amazing. And I love, like I said, it's my love language. I love throwing dinner parties.

I love feeding my friends and family. I love going out for dinner and eating good food. I'm a bit of a food snob. I know good food from bad. And I just, I love cooking. And it is my, like, therapy and meditation. And all the recipes for, are they family, for like, you know, the whole family, the recipes that you do? There's recipes for absolutely anyone and everyone.

Right. We've got vegan, veggie, family friendly, barbecue, hosting. It's just all of my recipes in one place. Oh my gosh. Because people can say and bring out a cookbook, do something. And I just wanted to sort of bank them all in one place. Yeah. I think it's great to have it on an app actually because not many people have cookbooks, physical cookbooks.

anymore like if i want to find a recipe i google it i don't go now where is page 52 this recipe book exactly yeah oh my god i can't wait to go on it and give it a little look and probably well attempt to cook danny's the cook in the house now because he did master chef i don't really have a leg to stand on but maybe with your wisdom on your app i can teach myself yes a bit more home cooking for sure any advice for pussy people with fussy yes yes So Sunday was a fussy eater. Was she? Not anymore.

She's still quite particular, but there's no way I'm letting either of my children be fussy. But I said that. No, and so did I. And it pains me when they push away their plates. Like Sunday was just a joke. But I, like, completely like, I mean, I was in denial. And Laurie, when I met him, he was like, no, she's a fussy eater. And I'm like, no, she just likes what she likes.

Yeah. And he's like, she's a fussy eater. Oh, no. I think with Sunday, it's all about control. With Finty, we, she's such a foodie. But she is now getting to a stage where she's like rejecting stuff. I think you just got to continuously try. I, with Sunday, started to get a list and just build upon that list.

And then, like, for example, the other night, I cooked a recipe. Like, if I do something for me and Laurie, she's like, oh, can I try that? And then she's like, I prefer that. And I'm like, well, just stop being. difficult because, you know, I end up doing everything really plain and I said, it tastes boring and not very nice. If you allow yourself to try, then you, I know you'll like it. You kind of like it, yeah. So the other night I made, I posted it on my, um, did I put, yeah, I posted it on my, my Instagram. It's like flat breads with just like lamb cofters and a

delicious minty yogurt and with a Greek salad. Sunday doesn't like cheese, so I didn't add the better but I was like let me assemble it as me and lorry would eat it yeah and try if not i'll do it all on the side and then like and she loved it and then the other day we had it was just like a an egg fried you know stir fried rice and she wanted her egg fry her egg there the rice plain a little bowl for the soy sauce and the vegetables on the side i was like okay i'll do it but i want you to try out because you're having it all separate and she tried it. So I literally got our plate, scooped it all in and she was like, I liked it. So I think

just don't give up, stick to what they like and then just build upon that. I think that's what I need to, I need to do that and I need to be a bit stronger with it as well. Because Cooper's just been back at mum and dads. And mum went, he tried something different. Every night I was like, no, he did not. And she's like,

no, no, he had shepherd's pie. I was like, he can't have possibly had shepherd's pie because he hates mince. And she's like, no, no, he ate it all. I was like, no. Oh, he's playing me. But that's fascinating because it's a relationship with you. Yeah. And that is fascinating.

And I think as well, one of the big things is because Danny's away a lot, like he's just done a two and a half month tour, I think I've said this about 20 times on this podcast now. Just as anyone didn't know that. I'm tired. And he, when he's away, I think because I'm so exhausted and I've got so much on, I don't have that last bit of energy to argue over food. I get it.

So I just go, do you know, just eat what? Whatever. Whatever. What does he eat? Oh, shit. Is it like chicken nuggets and juice? Yeah, yeah. He does that, but I make, Joe Wicks did these like broccoli top things.

Yeah. And I have made them ever since he's been little and he loves them. So there's broccoli in him. He likes beans. You know, he does get, and he likes fruit. So he does get his nutrients. Yes. Other ways.

It's just I don't want him to be a kid just full of processed food. Does he eat, because I'm fascinated by this, Does he eat, would he eat a roast dinner? No. Okay. No. But however, he has. Because I feel like that's such a good one to build upon because then it could, because it is actually all separate.

Yeah. I think what I'm going to do soon is try him on a roast dinner because I know for a fact at school because he has school dinners and he's asked for a pet lunch every day for about a year. And I've said absolutely not because I know that he has to eat that food at school. Yes. And that's salisers him. What have you had to? today, I'd be like, oh, I had a chicken curry. I'm like, did you eat it?

Yeah, I get a bit of it. I'm like, okay, right, so I know you're eating chicken that's not breaded. Yes. I know you're doing that. Yes. So I might try them on a roast, actually. It's just waste as well. I think you'd just go, what a waste of food?

Yeah. Such a shame. You know, my kids are like little mini carnivals. Finty, I swear to God. And we didn't even, it just happened so organically. We'd be having these, like, delicious minted lamb chops. she come over, Finty have some. So Laurie just gave it to her and she was just like totting about with the lamb chop and I'm like, well, there you go.

Isn't it weird how some kids are so different? Yes. But I always remember someone saying to me because I'm always like, I don't understand how you can have two little girls and it can be different in, you know, in the way they are. And the person said to me, they were like, but you're not the same person. No. Like Fern eight years ago is a different Fern to Fern two years ago when you had Finty. And I'm like, oh my God, that's so true And I never really think about it like that

Well, yes, Gabor Maté says it You know, he's amazing And he's like, there's never the same parents Even with the same sibling Yeah I mean, with Finty There was a six-year age gap I'm not only a different mum

I'm an entirely different person And I believe that we can all change Yeah, yeah Like for sure, like our cells Rejuvenate or whatever the word every seven years like we change yes yes wow we we're entirely different like and i and i look back to when i was pregnant with sunday and the person that i was how i thought how i responded how i everything about me is just entirely different to who i am now so of course we're going to have different

children and and of course you learn from what you do before don't you yeah what you got wrong and i think was Sunday she started off really well with food and then they start pushing back and it's the whole control and I did give in whereas with Finty I've persisted yeah because they go through little phases and like if they're poorly or if they're you know going whatever they're going or growing through and then they they might stop eating but then I've just continuously you know put the veg on the plate or just just just keep just keep trying yeah you're inspiring me I'm going to I'm going to do better and try hard. Try harder. Dan is back now, so I've got a bit more time to actually. It is hard because it is a battle. Yeah. And it's who's going to win. Yeah. Because if you, I've never

been that person where I'm like, you just want your kid to eat. You're not like, well, they get nothing. And I know lots of people do that. Yeah. My mom and dad were like that. When we were younger, like, you eat that or you don't get anything else. And I'm like, oh, God, just doing that to Cooper. I'd be so upset with myself. Do you know what I'm devastated about? I'll say to Sunday, you're, you're missing out, honey, on your mother's very good cooking. Yeah, it's so true. You don't know what you're missing.

Like, you are depriving yourself from just like every, yeah, great food. Great food. And it's like, and I think because as well, it is, it does feel like a dagger in the heart when, because like, you know, it's love when you make, you know, even if you make your own chicken nuggets and you do your hidden veg this and that. Yeah. And you give it to them and they push it away. Yeah. It's insulting. Yes, because you've taken time.

Yes. I have slaved over an oven for you to create this meal. I have hand-chopped these vegetables. And I went to the supermarket this morning when I didn't want to go. And you feel like a super mom and then they just don't, they don't bloody eat it. I know. It's a constant battle. I think a lot of us feel it, though.

It's nearly time to go. But before, I know, we've taught and talks and top. Yep. Just quickly, I wanted to just touch on your. podcast. Yes. Which is quite new, isn't it? Yes. Every cloud has been launched and live for I want to say about five, six weeks. Yeah. Because we've had about, yeah, five, six episodes. But I am incredibly proud of it. I just, I have thoroughly enjoyed the process. It's, it was entirely different going from my reality show and making TV to then actually producing a podcast. But it's

been brilliant. It was born out of my therapy journey. Yeah. And we have guests who share their silver lining moments. And then also I'm joined with psychotherapies, psychologists, life coaches and they're like what I like to call our expert episode. Yes. Yeah. Where we don't have a guest, but we unpack any sort of life topic from grief to showing up as your true authentic self to rage. Rage. I saw the Rage. Rage. Learned behaviors. And And I think through my own therapy journey, I developed a passion for psychology and why we behave in certain ways, why we are drawn to certain things, whereas somebody might not. You know, we all have different reactions.

And yeah, I just, I love it. I love learning about psychology and self-development. And it really is like, if you listen to the episodes, you'll go on your own journey of self-discovery. I wanted to have that professional with me because I will always be like it's very honest from my perspective and I share a lot. I think I'm that way inclined. I wear my heart my sleeve. But I'm not the expert. Yes, I can have a passion for it. But I wanted people to get tangible tips that they can genuinely apply to their life so they can go out and lead a better life and have more of an understanding of themselves. Yeah. And the name is very symbolic. Every cloud,

you know, it's a recognisable quote. Every cloud has a silver lining and I really stand by that because we all go through, everyone will go through some sort of, and I don't use this word lightly, but trauma in their life. And however that looks like to you,

you know, something that you might find traumatic, somebody else might not. So it's all very personal and individual. But we're all going to go through something and life, you know, throws its ups and downs and it's how we deal. with that and I wanted to learn from through others their silver lining moments because when we're in the thick of the storm it can feel very consuming and I've lived out some of those

moments quite publicly although you know you don't get the full story from reading a headline of course you don't yeah and I know yeah and then you know you go you go through it in your own home and I I really sort of found a lot of healing through therapy yeah and ultimately had silver lining moments. So was that your silver lining, do you think? Therapy? I think every time I've gone through something I've learned so much about myself. Yeah. And I absolutely, therapy has been so transformative for me. Like it has completely changed my life. We speak about therapy on the show because there's a lot of therapists out there that aren't, you know, anyone, I found this so insightful that anyone, you and I, Georgia, we could do this tomorrow. We could add

it into our Instagram bio, we could call ourselves psychologists. Could we? We could. Why? It's quite tempting, isn't it? But yeah, it's not governed. I mean, there is a board. But yes, of course, there's psychology degrees and there's legit ones out there. But, you know, anyone could be a life coach these days. I've even done my life coach course and passed years ago. I done that when I was pregnant with Finty. So ultimately, you need to find the right therapist. And for me, I had a very successful therapy journey and I can't see my life without it. I initially started when I was going through something and my mum suggested it and I was just in complete denial. I was like, there's nothing wrong with me. I did exactly the same

thing. Yeah, because I think that there's stigma and the connotations around it like seven years ago, it was like, especially in this country, it's like it felt so taboo and like you was having a breakdown. Yeah, yeah. Quite possibly I was having a breakdown. Yeah. Quite possibly I was having a breakdown. But I just didn't want to admit it. Yeah. And yeah, there's been times where it's saved my life. Yeah. Yeah. Saved my life. And I feel so mentally and emotionally grounded. I feel, yeah, really quite proud of myself and what I've been through in, you know, going on that journey is a lot of stuff that people don't see. Yeah. And when you're in the public eye, you sort of want to shout it from the rooftops, but, you know, the work is done behind

the scenes. So hard, isn't it? Because there's so much you would want to shout from the rooftops and be like, that's not true, this didn't happen, so and so. And you would almost love people to see you at home in the fetal position, sobbing or, you know, like, so they can see you're hurting. Yes. But the minute you do something like that, you just look, it's a shame because people would be like, oh, they're just trying to get attention and they're trying to do this. So you don't. You suffer in silence, basically. But yeah, therapy, honestly, it changed my life as well, first.

Wow. How long have you done it for? Oh, years. But I did it on and off and then I found one lady and she was just incredible and she was my person. Yes, you have to find.

Yeah, she got me. And for anyone listening that's scared of starting it, it is a journey, isn't it? Like, and you unearth things that are hard and it almost gets harder, doesn't it, before it then gets better?

Sure. Which is difficult. Yeah. But you've kind of got to push through the hard. I mean, there's been so, on so many, occasions that I haven't wanted to sit in that chair. Yeah, yeah. Because therapy makes you take accountability.

You have to look at your uglier sides and take responsibility. And that can be deeply painful. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, it was, I've had, yeah, I describe it as a successful therapeutic journey and just the lessons and the wisdom. And I wanted to create something that was really aligned with who I am now. it has felt like a bit of a transition but I'm I guess on that journey yeah on my every cloud journey on my podcasting journey and well done you well done you for creating something that is

no doubt going to help other people but then it's the end I don't want it to end yeah I've had the loveliest time chatting with you should we meet up outside of because we had the tapperware chat and then I was like no we're gonna we're gonna have to start recording and then I feel like the conversation is just... I know, I know. We'll go for a wine or something. Yes, Defoe. Let's do that.

Oh, thank you so much. Thank you, Fern. This is a gorgeous environment. Thank you. Kudos to you. Thank you. That's a wrap on another episode of Mums the Word. Thank you so much for joining us today

as we were joined by the amazing Fern McCann. Don't forget to leave us a review. Follow us on socials at at Mums the Word underscore pod and subscribe to our YouTube channel. where you can now watch our episodes in full. Just search Mum's the Word. Until next time, I'm Georgia Jones, and this has been Mum's the Word.

And we'll be back with another episode, same time, same place next week.