Mum's The Word! The Parenting Podcast - ‘It’s the Longest Relationship of Your Life’ Catherine Carr & Georgia Jones on Siblings, Favouritism & Why Birth Order Isn’t Destiny

Episode Date: June 14, 2026

This week on Mum’s The Word, Georgia Jones sits down with award-winning broadcaster and Relatively host Catherine Carr to talk about the relationship we rarely know how to talk about: the one with our siblings. Her debut book, Who’s The Favourite?, busts the myths and shares the science behind the brothers and sisters we love and occasionally want to throttle.Why might siblings be the longest relationship of your life?Why is no child ever born into the same family?And why do labels like the golden child, the funny one or the baby follow us into adulthood?Catherine and Georgia get into birth order, the truth about only children, whether firstborns really are cleverer, sibling rivalry, and the stat that 74% of parents admit to having a favourite.Plus the beautiful idea that reframes it all: that family isn’t a hierarchy, it’s a constellation.Find out more: Listen to Catherine’s podcast RELATIVELY Get the book WHO’S THE FAVOURITE? Follow Catherine on Instagram @tall.lady.carrGrab a cuppa, get comfy, and tuck in.A Create Podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back to Mum's the Word. I'm your host, Georgia Jones, and today I am joined by the brilliant Catherine Carr. She's an award-winning broadcaster, documentary maker and host of hit podcast relatively. And she's just written her debut book, Who's the Favorite? A deep dive into the relationships that shape us most, the ones we have with our siblings. She's here to bust the myths, share the science, and help us all make a bit more sense of our brothers and sisters we love and occasionally want to throttle. So grab a cupper, get comfy, and let's jump in to a brand new episode of Mum's the Word. Catherine, welcome. I've been chatting to Catherine already and I think I've fallen in love with her. So this is great, great start. Thanks for having me. Thank you for coming on. So I have already done a little intro about you and everyone knows that you have written a book called Who's the Favorite?

Yeah. So give us a brief synopsis of give us a lowdown. Tell us about it. Well, I had the idea to make a podcast, actually, originally about siblings in 2020, when someone said to me on a phone call, just chatting away, blah, blah, blah, blah. I was thinking, what could I do? I make a podcast about my sisters, the drama. I'm in the middle of three.

The drama's untold, and I'm less dramatic. And she said, don't make a podcast about your sisters. But make one about siblings, because did you know it's the longest relationship of your life? And it was like someone had just slapped me around the face. Is it? It could be. Yeah, of course, because, yeah, right, okay. It could be a 95-year relationship.

Yeah, it could well be. Before your friends, before your lovers, after everyone else has gone, whatever, they might still be there. Your mom and dad have already lived part of their life. Yeah, right. And I thought, right, everyone must know this, I must be late to the party. I was today years old, etc.

No, no. And so then I made this podcast and I was invited to write a book. And it turns out it's probably the first one to actually ask people as adults, although it has so much relevance for parenting, what it is that siblings mean and how to make a good sibling relationship and what it might mean to have a relationship

with another human to whom you're related for nine, eight, nine decades. It's wild. So that's where it came from. I mean, I love it because when I was doing some research prior, I was like, God, this is so true. We don't really, like we talk about, you know, becoming a new mum.

We talk about relationships with our partners. We talk about mental health, perimenopause, men are parses, all these different things. There isn't really anything where we talk about our siblings. No, and I think it's like we're illiterate. Like we don't have the language. You go to the pub and you talk about your husband, your partner, your kids, your mum. You've kind of got the language to say, oh, this thing's happening.

Oh, yeah, I know that thing. And you can describe it, like your husband's being annoying, your mum's being overbearing. I'm not saying that's normal, you know, whatever. And then it comes to your siblings, we don't really have the right words because we don't know the phenomenon. We don't know the research. but interestingly, health visitors that I've spoken to since the book came out said that worries about sibling dynamics is like one of the number one things that they get asked about

by parents who've had their second child. That's interesting. So when they have bring the second bundle home and you're on, you know, you're on the sofa at home in a total days, health visitor or whatnot comes around. Apparently one of the first things that they say is we don't want to recreate what happened in each of our families or how can we make sure that these two. get on. Yeah. And that's so surprising to me. Because you almost think it's almost a given that, well for me, because I have a good relationship with my sister. So you almost, for me, I only

have one child, but if I had another, I would almost think, oh, well, they're going to just be best mates. Yeah. Whereas I suppose if you had had a different experience, you might be thinking, oh my God, I hope they're not like me and my sibling. So what was it like, so you've got two other sisters, did you say? I've got two other sisters. Yeah. One who, I always get it wrong and my mum tells me off. Let's say she's two years older than me. And then a baby sister who's six years younger, so there was like a big old gap. Okay. And we grew up for part of our childhood in the Netherlands. We moved to Holland because my dad had a job over there. And then when I was 11, my older sister was about 13 and the baby was six.

My parents divorced like lots of parents do. Yeah. But what they did that was perhaps less normal is that when they split up, they also split us up. Why? Did they do that? I don't really know. No. Not really. Because now I'm a middle-aged woman myself. I know what marriage is and what a long marriage can look like. I know how hard it can be and how wonderful. And I know that the decisions you make when you cause pain to other people, I mean, they're really hard. They live with them. Yeah. They didn't know what was going to happen, how it was going to feel, whether staying together was better or, you know, any of the eventualities. How old were you at the time? 11. 11. Okay, quite, yeah, quite young. So my mum left, which is also on you. usual and took the baby and then left me and my older sister with my dad and then quite quickly maybe a year or so later it's a bit hazy i think memories that are difficult to hazy we move back to the UK so my dad my older sister and i lived in the UK and my mum the baby and her new partner stayed in holland right so i had this very odd sort of nature nurture controlled experiment

yeah like you get brought up there in that country by that parent and we'll do the same over here and then we visited in between. And have you seen a stark difference then in your baby sister compared to you and your eldest sister? It's funny with siblings, like you said, you expect them to get on, but you don't expect everyone in the world to get on and be the same. You sort of think, well, genetics and environment will mean that you're sort of similar. So in our case, obviously genetics are shared, environments are not shared. So yeah, you're right.

We had different upbringings, different cultures. you're surrounding us different schooling. So in some ways we are different. But actually the mind-blowing thing about siblings is that you could grow up in the same house and have the same parents and be hunky-dory. And you don't have the same childhood anyway. And you don't have the same environment.

You're never born into the same family as your sibling because your parents are older or younger, richer or poorer, moved house, dogs dead, dogs alive, granny and granddad. All these variables that surround the arrival of each child mean that your experience is unique. So why are we surprised then that people are so different or that siblings might not get on?

I used to be surprised. So I remember I used to say, how are they so different when they're not the same parents? But you are so right. Like they're never the same parents. No. Never. Like I would be a completely different parent now to a new child

than I was to Cooper because it was eight years ago. Yeah. Like I've learned a lot. You've learned a lot and you're, I don't know, busier or tired of, I don't know, wiser or more, optimistic less. I don't know. And also, the next child won't be Cooper. It'll be another little personality that will, like with your friends, you know, draw out different parts of your personality. And I think that's where the title of the book is so clever because favouritism can feel like a

like a poisonous idea in families. And it really is. But I think it gets to the idea that you're allowed to have distinct relationships with your children. Yeah. Because one might need you more or like this kind of reassurance or encouragement. And the other one needs totally different things. So you're not going to just parent like a robot. No. And it's so true, really, when you think about it. Because me and my sister are completely different. Right. We're super, super close.

Like, I am so lucky that I have her as my sister. But she's an intellect. She's a doctor. She's very, very smart. So are you. Come on. In my own ways, which is what my mum and dad used to tell me when I was a little girl. I'm really good at arts, okay?

Even though I knew that wasn't true But I was like, okay, I'll take it Because I don't know what else I'm good at Star of the week Yeah But it's so funny because I was Listen to a few of the things that you've said on You know, podcasts and whatnot

And about how certain children can be, Have different roles So like, you know, I feel like my sister is almost the protector And I don't know whether that's because she's the older one or because she just naturally went into that role for some reason. Yeah. Whereas I'm the little princess. Oh, okay.

I was waiting to you what you were going to say. Yeah. And it makes me sound a bit of a wanker saying that. But I am. I'm like the one that is maybe a little bit more precious than my sister and a bit more divas not the right word, but I know how to work my dad. Oh, okay.

So I know how to wrap him around my little finger. However, my sister. is very close to my dad. I'm a bit of both. I'm like, mum, mum is like proper mum. Dad is there, like, with good advice. Yeah. Really great advice.

So is it true that there are these roles, whether you are the eldest, middle, youngest? And do we fall into them naturally? I think it's more complicated than that. And that gets back to the language idea. I think you say siblings to people and they go, oh, birth order, oldest middle baby. And then they stop.

and then that's all they want to talk about. And I think that's great. I think birth order is really interesting. But I think the next question is like, what comes with birth order? So let's say you're the oldest. Culturally, what does that mean? I would say is the oldest daughter that often means you're a bit more responsible. You might be asked to take on emotional sort of caregiving of the younger siblings,

which is a bit gendered and a bit rubbish if you think about it. You might not do that with the oldest boy, discuss. And then in other parts of the world, not the West, you might be asked to do much more parenting roles as a girl. And as a boy, you might be sent out to work really early. Yeah. If you lived in a country where it's developing and you need to contribute to the family purse. So what goes along with your birth order culturally, number one?

And then number two, there is this sort of, I don't know if it's evolutionary or what, but this thing that kids seem to naturally grasp and why wouldn't they, which is I need a USP. So if the oldest one is responsible and blah-de-blah telling me off like a second. mom, whatever, well, that role's being fulfilled. I can't be another responsible bossy older sister. Tick. So what can I be? Like, how am I going to get a share of this attention? What's my kind of niche going to be? So then they subconsciously, consciously, sometimes think, right, then I'll be the artist, or I'll be the messy one, or I'll be the funny one or the creative one. And you might have noticed with friends, you've got more than one kid, when you have a toddler and then you have a

baby, you're not as wrapped up in entertaining the baby, because frankly, the toddlers. requires more attention, but you'll notice when you're making train tracks or Play-Doh or whatever you're doing with the toddler, if you happen to catch the eye of the baby who's been sort of put in the car or the bouncy chair in the corner, they will work that icon. They're literally jazz hands, smiling, like, so you can see quite early on that they're like, how do I get a share of that? Interesting. That's really interesting because I think I am that baby. There you go.

But it does do jazz hands because not any fault to my mum and dad because they were always very, very even with their love. Legal disclaimer. Yeah, legal disclaimer. If you're listening to my dad, my sister definitely listens. Dad doesn't listen. But Lauren was kind of golden girl quite rightly because she was winning all the awards

and getting things published. You know, she was just great. Being Lauren. Yeah, being Lauren. So I think I did do all the things. Well, I was very, very shy. Really? Yeah, very, I know.

Very shy because I think I was in her shadow. Okay. And I didn't know what I could do. I didn't know what my thing was. And then I found it. And then she arrived. Yeah. And then I became the loud one.

I became, my rule changed in our, in mind and my sister's relationship. It went from me being the quiet one to her actually being the slightly more quiet one. But I think it was because she, didn't find her space at school because she was so clever, I think, and so literal with everything in a lovely way. And kids aren't, you know, a lot of kids aren't like that. It's more just like being silly and having fun. Yeah. I really noticed that with us growing up. Yeah. It did definitely

change dynamics. Yeah. And it does. Yeah. And it has to, right? Because it's so long. I'd take a couple of things about that. Number one, as the baby, it's important with birth order to recognise a truth, although a lot of it is stereotype and not deterministic. I think there is something in it. And all the therapists I spoke to said, oh, it's not true, but it's always kind of true. So the eldest is born into an adult environment. So Lauren was born to adults, lived with adults, not a family. And then you pitched up, it was a family. So that's different. And there's another child. And three people giving you attention, not just two. But the environment it was different. It wasn't an adulty environment that you came into with just their attention.

And the other thing to say is that the baby is never replaced on their mother's lap. So you can see why babies sometimes might, and you said it not me, be a bit divory or princessy. Because they've never been turfed off to make room for the new bundle that's arrived from hospital. They're like, I am the baby and shall ever more. Whereas everyone else, me included as a middle, we had to change from baby to middle to middle to second middle. Do you feel like middle have the hardest time then? I think very ironically, middles, they're not dying out, but fewer families. Midsils are dying out.

Fewer families are having three kids. So middle children are becoming less common. Well, you've got to change a car. I know, exactly. So then we're like, well, there's the irony. We never got attention. And now people are talking about it's in the newspapers because we're endangered. So ironic.

And the other thing I would say about what you said is the idea of the golden child. I think that's as a parent, one of the things. didn't set out to write a parenting book. And as I kind of wrote the end, full stop, I thought, oh God, I've just written a book that's really useful for parents. Yeah. Because what I realized is that a lot of the ideas like golden children and being the clown or the princess or the baby, all of these things, they can be quite tricky labels. If a child feels they're doing really well and winning prizes, and I'm sure it wasn't the case in your family, but that they only got affection and attention from their parents because of that. Yeah. That's a really transactional, not very nice golden case.

to put a child in. Yeah. Because they might feel if they, you know, messed up on a spelling test, that all of a sudden that lovely warm affection might be like, that's gone now. So I think as a parent, we want to say to our children, you're really good at this and you're really good at that. But the only bit of advice, and I'm not really in a position to give advice,

but from writing the book and reading the evidence, the only bit of advice I can think to give is like maybe allow children, as you say, to change and to grow and not to put them in boxes of, oh, you're the funny one. Oh, you're this. Because they might feel a bit sort of squashed after a while. And trapped and like, I don't want to be that one anymore. I don't want to be that person anymore. Particularly when you go off to uni or college and then you all of a sudden discover like new music, financial independence, that you're actually quite responsible and tidy. Yeah. To come home and always be sort of said, oh, well, you've always been the messy

one. And what are you doing? Ha, ha, ha. It's like, well, maybe I'm 24 now and not 11. And I'm not actually the messy one. It's so true because as well, like with things like nicknames that you get from when you're a little, little child, I'm not going to stay on here what mine and my sisters are because actually, when you think about it, they're terrible. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, like they could have really affected us mentally. It doesn't seem to have, by the way, no. No, it hasn't. I mean, my sister more than me, but it's because of we were different children. But it is, it's things like that. Yeah. When you're little, that you get, you get labeled, right? You get a name, you get a nickname. And that lives with you forever more. And it's a little.

still does. We still get called those nicknames and it doesn't bother either of us, but it could with some people. And I think what that can do, like that's all within the home, like with the parents still around. But actually, those roles, if they become squashy and constraining or mean or whatever, they can prevent the siblings from becoming close independently of like where you grew up with your parents. And then when you, I'm older than you, when your parents start to get old and mine are well still, but there will come a day when they're not and we'll have to put the back signal up, you know, convene all the step siblings and siblings and be like, what we're going to do? If you haven't moved beyond those like childhood labels and roles and jokes, really two-dimensional,

oh, plain one, pretty one, clever one, little silly nickname, how on earth are you supposed to act as a group of like competent adults to organise wills, care homes, funerals, grieving, clearing houses? You know, I've heard people be like, well, you know, my brother, he, of course he wasn't going to help with the care of my baby brother, he wasn't going to help. And you're like, he is a 57-year-old CEO. I think. He's not that little boy that was incapable of doing certain things anymore. Yeah. I think he's the head of a multinational corporation. He might have had some useful skills. On that, though, because some friends of mine, siblings have had an argument recently because one of them has kind of always been a certain way, terrible at, you know, getting back to people

and whatnot. But he's always been that way. And his sibling knows he's always been that way. Okay. Is the sibling a girl? Yes. Okay. Yep. And as the older they've got, I feel like the more that's then affecting their relationship.

Yeah. But then it's always been that way, but that goes back to kind of the, now you're a CEO of a company. Do you think because they're now a grown adult, they shouldn't be that way? Maybe they shouldn't be that way. I think there's also this funny thing we do with siblings. Just like you said, if you had another child, in your mind, you're like, they would be best friends. Yes.

We want that. We probably, most of us want that with our siblings ourselves. But I think what we do, because we don't look into it deeply, have the language, read the research, blah, blah, blah, blah, is we're quite simplistic about siblings. So we do birth order and then we do like best friends. And we do even say that in films and stuff, I loved her like a sister.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the closest you can be. Actually, sibling relationships are really complicated. And sometimes someone doesn't want to be close to their sibling or they don't know how to be close or they're wired differently. They don't do emotions and communication and da-la-la-la-la. And there's a lot of pain in sibling relationships of mismatched desires and what they think a good relationship looks like.

There's an awful lot of estrangement. There's a lot of upset and cut-off and arguments. And I think by putting siblings in this funny, special relationship box where we allow young children to whack each other and it's okay because they're siblings, that is very strange. And then Alderson, very good point. Would you let anyone else whack anyone else? No. No, sorry, just interrupt quickly. Before I forget, I swear to God I'm going through a perimenopause. And Cooper is, so he's an only child. And my dad often says, oh, he's not used to rough and tumble because he hasn't got a sibling. And I'm like, no, to be honest, even if he did have a sibling, whether I'd want him to be like rough and tumbling, like, scruff, full-blown, squapping. Yeah. So, So yeah, it's interesting that you say that. Yeah, it is interesting.

I think, again, only children is a whole chapter in the book. Yeah. Because we don't talk about siblings, generally, we don't get to all those things like only children, sibling violence, sibling, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, rough and tumble is a part of having boys. If you have two boys, they will be a mind wrestled. Yeah. But it was wrestling.

Yeah. We had a very clear rule you hit you lose. That's the end of the argument. Having an argument, did you hit him? You've lost the argument. I'm sorry. Yeah. That's not a way to communicate.

But often it's like, well, they're brothers. It's okay that they've, you know, smacked them around the forehead with a brie-air train. You think, and it's really not specific. I like it. Not that I've been there. Whereas only children, if you look at the research, you know, some of the stereotypes are like, oh, you know, they're a bit delicate or spoiled. They can't compromise. They can't share.

That's what I get all the time. And it's not true. Yeah. It is not true that actually the research shows they're better friends because they don't take anyone for granted like siblings do. And once they've made a good companion, they do what we do with our friends. They like... Keep them. Yeah, they respect it and foster it.

And they're very much better at compromising than siblings are. Do you know, that's interesting you say that because Cooper does get very emotional when like one of his friends may be, because all his friends have siblings. Yeah. So when one of his friends is like, decides to play with somebody else that day, he does come home and he's like, well, he doesn't want to play with me anymore. And he's quite hurt by it. which, so I'm assuming that's probably because he's not used to, like, you know, having a...

Maybe, and the research shows by age 12, they've kind of caught up, they've had the edges knocked off emotionally or whatever, but I would say beyond that, perhaps we could learn from only children. Like, would it not be a good thing to have a more emotionally literate child, like an only child who's a bit more sensitive and looks at siblings yelling and screaming and pulling each other's hair and thinks, no, thank you, that does not look fun? It's because I, with Cooper, I was always in turmoil because me and my husband, we decided quite quickly after having Cooper one and done. Yeah. You don't want another one. But it hurt me because it pained me for him not to have that sibling and not to have that person that he could go to if there was something up with mum or dad. Yeah. Because I always feel like that's like one thing with siblings is when there's something.

wrong in the family, you turn to each other? I mean, not every, not hashtag, not all the siblings. But, yeah, yeah, I'm sure that might be true at certain times in his life. But what I would say, from the research I've done, is that there's this really simplistic idea that having a sibling can rescue you from being lonely. And I don't think the research bears that out. So many people in sibling relationships are unhappy. And people are lonely generally quite a lot of the time. I don't know about you, I get lonely. Lots of friends and sisters. Yeah.

Why are we squeamish about that? And the idea that you might look at an only child who's struggling with something or feeling lonely and saying it's because they don't have a sibling is actually like nonsensical. Having a sibling cannot rescue you from everything that's difficult about life. It might be that when, you know, you're older and he's older, he might wish sometimes that he had someone to talk to. But I'd also say, look at the way that DNA works.

He might share as much DNA with, cousins if he has any or other people as he would with a there you go you can share as much DNA with a first cousin as you do with a sibling really yes in the way i'm not going to explain it because i only understood it when i typed it and triple checked it and that was it that's like me understanding maths i'm like i think i've got oh god don't talk to me about math yet no so that's why i think i get on very well with my first cousin jessica we're very very very sim like very sisterly similar yeah so he has that and the third thing i'd say is birth rates are falling everywhere there's going to be so many more they probably already are in his class.

They're going to show us a new way of doing chosen family and support as you get older. Yeah. We're going to learn from them. Like, great friends. You're someone describing this Chester's chosen sisters. I don't know what brother version is. Yeah, but, I'm not going to try. I'm not attempting.

So, you know, that's not the same. Your urban family is going to be your, and I have an only child, one of my very best friends is an only child. Her dad is declining. It's very sad. We have a group. We are her sisters. She can phone us in the middle of the night. She can tell us all and everything.

We're there for every detail of every phone called social services. I'm in. And he will have that. Yeah. Because he's good at making friends. Yeah, I really hope so. And I think hopefully throughout his life is going to be good at talking because he's good at, you know, expression, expressing his emotions.

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Oh, she's odd because she's an only child. Yeah. She's only had a self, oh, that sounds dodgy. She's only been able to play by herself on her own. Yeah. So she just, that's why she's socially awkward. Yeah. That came from a 19th century psychoanalyst.

Was he a psychonalyst? Did he? Yeah, called someone or other hall. Can't remember his name. So it was a study? Not a real study. The study is hilarious. It literally is, I'll give you the short version,

looking at animals, big litter of piglets and being like, look how happy they are. There's so many of them. Oh, maybe people with more brothers and sisters might be happier, part one. Part two, this chap went over to America. There's a contemporary of Freud, a pal of Freud, went to America, sent loads of letters to schools in America saying, I want to gather data, and I use this term very loosely, air quotes,

on peculiar and exceptional children. And this was in Victorian times, children who might have a cleft palate, a squint, be gluttonous, nervous, thin, all these funny Victorian terms, which we would not and should not use now and probably should not have used then to talk about children. He got all of this quote-unquote data.

None of this is scientific. And then he looked at how many of those peculiar and exceptional children were only children. And he made some absolutely bad shit conclusion, which was, oh, a lot of them are only children, these peculiar and exceptional children. Therefore, only children are more likely to be peculiar and exceptional. And that was like, I can't tell you how many times that has been disproved,

like almost every decade since. And yet that stuck like super glee. Yes, always stuck in my mind. And it is not true. True. I was like, oh no. It is not true. And it's so in the minds of people that studies with only children,

they ask them, do you think you're more selfish, weird and da-da-da-da. And they're like, yes, I do. And then they prove, no, you're not. And they're like, oh, but everyone, it's just in the air. Yeah, well, it is. It's just kind of like a thing. It is changing. The people who work in that area say that they see attitude in their research

and the work that they do in communities. It is changing. And it will because people are having fewer and fewer babies. Right. So they'll prove us wrong. Because it's so hard when you're in your new mum. And everyone's like, oh, when are you having your next? And also rude, never ask anyone.

You should never ask anyone on that. No. But it is and it's hard because I was like, oh God, maybe I should have another one. But I knew it wasn't the right thing for me or my husband. You know, I wasn't well mentally when I had Cooper. I never want to go back there, to be honest with you. I don't want to do a newborn again. And you shouldn't have to even say what you're saying now.

You should just be allowed to not have one lovely boy. Not doing it. Yeah, I think you should almost, I mean, look at people at the school gates whose kids are like revolting to each other and be like, yes, why wouldn't I? Because of this. This looks like absolute paradise, having fun. Loads of fun. I mean, I really do think it will change.

I think there'll be a sort of inflection point. And as I say, I think we'll learn from these lovely only children who'll grow up and show us a slightly different way. Why not? Why not? Other research you did. You looked into like sibling rivalry. I did, yes.

Tell me a bit about sibling rivalry. Because I feel like you can have sibling rivalry but still be really close. Yeah. To a point. Yeah, you can. And I mean, weirdly, Freud, he hated his little brother when he arrived, although he never used the word sibling, I don't think, in any of his research. But it was all about your mother's affection and being replaced.

And that's basically the heart of sibling rivalry. The idea, and as a mum, your listeners will know it's hard if you do have a second child to imagine that your heart could be divided in half or grow or, and it just does. It just does. But as a child, when the next one comes along, you're like, are you sure? You're going to love me as much, like when the next one comes along. And so recognising that someone else is also your mother's child is like the psychoanalytical sort of roots of it all. And then it goes back to, as we talked about, four resources, like this idea of being known and getting attention and love and time and money,

whatever the resources look like for you compared to your brother or sister. And that idea of roles, like, are you being treated differently because you're being treated differently because you? you feel like you have to act a certain way to get those resources compared to your brother or sister who seems to just glide through without being demanded of. Yeah. And, you know, that can be very real for people. And then it can come about because those resources need to be shared

for difficult reasons. So I did an event recently at a literary festival. And I'm not joking, this 73 or four-year-old woman took the microphone to ask a question. And she was in tears saying, I have resented my sister my whole life because she was poorly as a child as a baby when I was a little girl. And so my mother, all of her time and attention resources,

went on to this poorly baby. And I've never got over it. And I've never talked to her about it. So I think the way we divide resources is always dictated by what's going on. And sometimes that's a serious and difficult thing. And all of these things can kind of add to this feeling of competition, which is kind of what you're talking about. Yeah, yeah.

And part of competition can be healthy. hometown. I suppose, yeah, if you're competing for your parents kind of love and affectionate. If it's dysfunctional, if your parents are not kind of dealing with it properly, yeah, it can be really toxic. And we saw, I don't know if you watch the bear, the TV series. No, about the chef. Is it about the chef? Yeah. But there's an episode in that Jamie Lee Curtis plays the mum who's a full on monster. Amazing. And the Christmas scene, so everyone's proper adults out in the world, and then they go back to this environment where she reigns supreme. and you see them all fall into this terrible dance of appeasing and pleasing.

It's so toxic and awful, and it's really cartoon bad. Like, it's so exaggerated. But it does make you think, oh, yeah, as parents, we're never going to be perfect. And we will create environments where children are feeling sometimes that they have to do this to get that. I think being aware of it and having that language again to be like, oh, I'm doing that thing. Putting them in boxes, let's not do that. So do you think parents should step in? sometimes say if they can see like the siblings kind of like, you know, vying for attention.

Do you feel like parents should step in and be like, guys, like, we love you both the same? Like, chill out. Well, now my boys are older. They're like 19 and 17. They know I wrote a book. They're not stupid. They've even read bits of it. And so sometimes I say things like, you don't have to be this good in order for me to.

They're like, yes, I know. Written a book. But yeah, I do think you can be explicit with your children, can't you and say, you did really well, like at the swimming. I was so proud of it that you came second. or whatever. But if you hadn't, I would be just as proud of you. Yeah, yeah. I love you. Yeah. Like, and if you decide one day you hate swimming, that's cool. Yeah. That's equally cool. You don't have to carry on doing swimming training in order for me and dad to turn up and think you're all the bees' knees. Suppose some parents can be like that though. Well, yeah. I mean, there's a bit of a problem, right? And that is exactly that. Some families have a

narrative about this is who we are. We are academics. We all go to Oxford and Cambridge. We all. Well, that's why my sister went. There you go. And you are there for a failure or less or whatever if you're not upholding this weird standard. I think there is a real issue around that because as discussed, DNA is shared weirdly, environments aren't shared, all siblings are different. Why would it follow that they're all going to be identical and want to strive for academic excellence in one way and not excellence in another? It makes no sense. Do you know, you know when you were talking about how no kid is born to the same parents? Yeah. Was there any evidence?

to prove that, like, say, because obviously firstborn, you know, you're doing all the flashes of it and you're like teaching them. Baby Mozart. Yeah, yeah, you're doing all the things. And then the second one, it's just kind of like, I mean, I didn't have a baby book. My sister had a baby book. Yeah, of course she did. Yeah. Fingerprints. Yeah, everything. And then I was like, so where's the evidence that I was actually born to you too? Because right now it doesn't seem like a lot. Pretty common. Yeah. And you know it'll hand me down. Yeah. You're my really, really ratty little club. No, mum used to dress as the same.

Oh, oh, yeah. On traps. Yeah, she, well, I think it was my grandma that enjoyed doing that. And then mum just did it. But is there any evidence from your research that, so my sister, obviously is, you know, academic, me not so much. Is there any evidence that, because all that attention gets put into the firstborn, that they often do achieve higher? In studies, firstborns tend to score ever so slightly higher on IQ tests. Right.

But I'm not going to tell my sister to that. She's going to listen to them. But not always. It's not deterministic. That's what I'll say. It's not like you are the firstborn therefore, you're cleverer. To my point about different cultures, if you lived elsewhere in the world, the firstborns would not because they'd have been sent out to work.

And the secondborn would, quote, unquote, be cleverer because they'd stay at school longer. Right. What is interesting is in a big study they did in Norway, where the firstborn child had very sadly passed away and the second born became the de facto firstborn, they did go on to achieve the few points higher in IQ tests. But it's really important to say that sibling studies, for all the reasons that we've said, are so difficult to do. You and your sister, you'd be great for a sibling study. Two, two girls, that's it. We're only 14 months apart. There you go. Imagine a family of five kids.

Where on earth do you start studying that with all of the variables I've discussed? And actually when you look at oldest children of much bigger families, sometimes that can be they're born to parents in a different socioeconomic class, either really wealthy, eight kids off to boarding school, thanks very much, or not so much. And those firstborns don't really get studied so much. The other thing to say is, so it's not deterministic, it's cultural. And most of the studies show, yeah, the resources,

that you're given are also balanced out by the fact that the subsequent children have attention and resources from other people. So if you, for example, if you're a younger sibling, they've shown that you get lots of advantage having an older sibling to be like a, you're, you're their apprentice and you learn a lot of things just by watching, which the oldest child doesn't have an older sibling. So it's very hard to say which is the bigger advantage. It's just too many things swilling around. But you're right. Most firstborn children. children, all other things being equal, although people get across on the internet, imagining it's easy having one child, we know it's not easy having any children, but they do tend to

have more adult attention for the first few years. Also, the other thing that's really interesting, and I hadn't realised this until I read the book. I read the book, I wrote it, wrote the book. You wrote the book. You don't do self-disservice. You don't just read it. And this I hadn't ever thought about, right? So if you have standard age gap two, three years, take some time off with each kid, the oldest child might get three maternity leaves. Oh yeah. Of course. I'd never thought that. Three times where they get like a year of their mum. Of mum being around, not dashing off to work, you know, leaving at nursery or whatever.

Nursery's fine, great. But that's a different thing, right? And then the third born gets one, but they also get two people to be their mentors. So it kind of is a very interesting 3D kind of puzzle. Yeah, it's an interesting, like, the dynamics different for each child there, really, isn't it? But the maternity leave one, I thought, with my boys, who are like you and your sister 20 months apart, I was like, oh yeah, Theo got two.

Yeah, you got more of me. You got two, yeah, you got two years, more or less of me. And what do you feel? So I, probably normally every year, buy either my mum or my dad a birthday card that says, from your favourite daughter. Solid, yeah. In jest, obviously, but I just think it tickles me because it always makes some squirms, basically.

Yeah, they're like, oh, you know we love you both the same. Like, they don't love me more. And so you show. And that's the rivalry, you know. But what do you feel like, do you think some parents do have favourites? Yeah, I mean, the studies show that something like 74% of parents admit to have it. Oh my gosh. But only one in ten would say it.

But what favourism means, I think. think is actually worth unpacking. Does it mean, it can mean lots of things, does it mean that it's the more amenable child? So the child where you're like, could you empty the dishwasher please? Done it. Yeah. Man, you're easy to have around. Does it mean the one that's performing and getting straight A's and because you're the family that likes to boast about your children at dinner parties? Does anyone have dinner parties? I don't know. You know, family emails at Christmas, whatever toxic, hideous nonsense that is. Is that great to you that they like, they're the doctor? And so they're the favourite because they did the thing that you wanted them to do is about fulfilling

expectations or is it just that you find them easier to get on with because of the mix of DNA that you get. Yeah. But that will change. My son at eight, my oldest, was a grump. He was a sullen grump. And then that testosterone spike thing. And he is like, Mr. Sunshine, pure sunshine now.

So we all change. Yeah. And as I say, that's the thing. You've got to allow people to change. So who's your favourite now? Might just be the person that empties the dishwasher quickly. Oh, yeah, yeah. But I think as well, like, some children can very much be like a certain parent as well.

Like, in terms of me and my sister, my sister is very my dad. Right. I am very my mum. Right. Which is probably why I actually get on really well with mum. We all get on the world together, but it's probably why I'm kind of like really 50-50 with my dad. Because obviously dad fell in love with my mum, didn't he? And I'm like my mum, so he sees me in, sees her in me.

Yeah. Whereas my sister is very matter of fact like my dad, very straight down the line, not a worrier like me and my mum. Which is probably why dad can really relate. And my sister can really relate to it. My dad's supposed to can't really be a doctor and be a massive warrior, can you?

I don't know, but I think that's really common. The idea of taking different roles because you see one's being taken, so you're like, oh, it's called de-identification or differentiation. And often in sibling pairs particularly, one goes, you know, like more like mum and one goes more like dad. Right. Because it makes sense.

It's like, well, kind of guaranteed some A-star attention if I develop an interest in gardening or whatever, like just to. So yeah, that can, that can happen. And I'm not underplaying favouritism because for some people it's in dysfunctional, not nice families. It's real and it's helpful. Yeah. And it lasts.

And I've read accounts from people whose brothers or sisters were kind of lavished with lots of and lots of praise and lots of time and lots of compliments and they were given horrible kind of nicknames or roles or called the language that was used about and was really hurtful and that lasts. But what I would say about some of the accounts is that in real life because we only live in our families altogether for a short time being kind of a gilded favourite, adored person with a path strewn with rose petals doesn't do many people a lot of favours when you get into the real world

So I have read accounts from people who said actually, ironically, being the favourite, has made their life really difficult because people don't just fawn all over them in the office or sort of let them have the choice of which restaurant to go to automatically or whatever it is. And treat them, you know, a weight on them hand and fun. Yeah. Whereas the slightly more maybe neglected or kind of out of the sunshine child, it's not a nice way to build resilience. I don't really like the word resilience and I wouldn't advertise it as a method. but some have told me, you know, I can cope with the knocks that life bring because I knew it wasn't a paradise to start with. Now that's a bit of a sad story, but I don't think you do favours to your children. We know this by telling them.

Yeah, by sugarcoat and everything. Yeah, you want to tell your kids, don't you? You are amazing to me. And, FYI, you are one of billions of children in the world. So you better do your best to kind of advocate for yourself out there because you're not necessarily brilliant and amazing to the rest of the world. Yeah, and you do have to teach them that. You know, they have to, their skin has to be a little bit thicken, really.

Like with Cooper, for instance, like, you know, when I've come back from parents' evening, I'm like, I'm so proud of you, you've done amazing, you've done this well, you've done this well, spelling could be a little bit better and this could, and this could be a little bit better, but I am really proud of a good job, well done. Just so he knows, you know, like, I don't want to come on and go, well done, perfect. Perfect. Everything's perfect, well done, wonderful, the end. Yeah, because they just be entitled then. Exactly.

Who wants that? We don't want to bring up an entitled child. No, thank you. Not for me. Have you read the book? The Blue Sisters? No. Because this is all about siblings.

So there are four sisters. I think I've seen, is this a recent novel? Yes. I've seen it around. You'll have seen the full cover it. Yes. Like artists. I have.

I have. Pated like a girl's face. No, I haven't got to the end. And I wouldn't spoil it anyway. But that is all about sisters dynamics and sisters roles. and it was really interesting and I spoke to my sister about it because I said reading it, it made me a little bit sad for my sister

because I always feel like my sister holds everything together for me. Oh. So that she, I always feel like she's my protector. And she does come to me with her problems. We've actually got a little bracelet, it's got a little aicorn on, which means strength. And whichever person needs it, gets it. So she handed it back to me.

a while ago because she felt like I needed it. And it's just that little like a bit of strength that we like to give to pass back and forwards to each other. But it did. It made me feel sad reading in the book because you see the sisters and they've all got their roles. One of them's very similar to me, like going off doing her own thing,

like almost a little bit unaware of things. Whereas you've got this, the eldest, and she is so caring and almost not looking after herself. Yeah. Not, a bit hypervigilant. Yeah, and just so aware of how everyone else is and making sure she's the strong one. And, you know, especially with Lauren, with her job, whenever it's anything in the family that's health-related. Oh, God, do they all phone her up.

Oh, we do, yeah, yeah, we do. Pictures of rashes on the family once. Yeah, Lauren, so, yes. From this love. Bless, she's a typical doctor, she's like, it's not my field, go and see a GP. When I was having a baby on the other hand, that was great. But yeah, so I feel like she is, she's our, she's actually the family's rock. Yeah.

And I do worry about that sometimes because I don't want her to feel like it's all, you know, on her. But I do feel like her job plays a massive part in that. Yeah, of course. When there's ever anything wrong, it's like, Lauren, what should we do? And she helps and she goes into doctor mode as well. Yes. Rather than daughter or sister. Medics do that.

They go to a special part of their brain. Yeah, go to a different place. And it's funny because sometimes mum's like, like, is she just very matter of facts about it? I'm like, well, yeah, Mom, because Lauren's just trying to like, calm you down. Give you the facts. Give you the facts. Yeah.

Black and white. You know, it's as simple as that. But yeah, it's those dynamics, isn't it? It is. It is. And I think one of the most, like, slap me around the face moments was when I spoke to somebody about, you know, got birth order, it's oldest middle baby. It's vertical.

So it's hierarchical, naturally hierarchical. So she was a capable 18-month-old. When you turned up, she was saying a couple of words, walking. She could pick up a raisin. She could do amazing things. That skill. She was probably saying the after that. And you were like a little, like, you know, a sort of little thing that came home.

But now you're nearly 40, so she's nearly 42 or whatever she is. There's no reason why it should be vertical. And the aim, really, with siblings, is to get to horizontal. So you've sort of done it with your bracelet, right? Yeah, I suppose so. It's the aim is to be on a level peer-like plane so that when problems do come, you're not reverting to, you know,

the 57-year-old baby brother CEO. You're all like, okay, we're fully functioning grown-ups out in the world. Some of us are academic doctors. Some of us are like incredible broadcasters and podcasts. It's really empathetic. We've got all these other skills.

Some of us are financial with kids. We're grown-ups. We're equal. Yeah. Let's face this together. Yeah. And I think you lose sight of that, the fact we're all grown.

ups now. Yes, it should be, and sometimes it reverts and it feels comfortable and nice to do funny jokes and whatever. Yeah. But not all the time. No. Come on. When you're like, I don't know, my mum and her sister, they're both 70-something.

It makes absolutely no sense to be talking about oldest and youngest. What? Yeah. What? You know, and it's so incredibly simple, but when you say it out loud, it's so correct. Yeah. Like, what? What are you talking about?

And also, you know, it happens with idea, one of the favourite chapters in the book to write was about memory and who remembers what and who gets the right to say what happened, which is actually rubbish. No one can say what happened because memory is as slippery as mercury. But often the oldest one is like, I'll tell you what happened because I was older. And it's like those sorts of things are maddening

and must be left in childhood. Yeah, because obviously someone's memory might be better, even if they're younger or... Right. Or things feel different to you when you're a baby. Yeah. That is a memory. Yeah.

The feeling is a memory. Being scared of something when you're small, even if it wasn't very scary if you're a bit bigger, it's true to you. Yeah, of course. They can't tell you it's not true. No. So all of those,

and that is one thing that a family therapist said to me, that is one area where birth order can be a little bit tricky is when the oldest sort of automatically assumes author rights or like, I'll tell you how it is or how it's going to be because. And it's like, actually, her description I loved so much was that the family's like a baby's mobile. So you're all connected and sort of wobbling around. And if one person changes, you know, you're ping a mobile.

All the pieces must move. But you're a unit. There's freedom to move and change and everyone will accommodate it. Oh, I love it so much. I love that. I love that. It's so true. And once you think about it like that, the boxes and the rigidity and the birth order

and it's gone out the window. It's a constellation. Yeah. What great note to end? I could have taught you for Esther. Oh, I love it. We got deep. I'm going to take that through my life now and say that to everybody.

That's a great, a great analogy. Thank you. So if we want to find your book, is it available in all good books? All good bookshops. Who's the favourite? It's called Bright Orange Cover. Okay, that's good to know. Bright Orange Cover, great.

You can't miss her. Love it. They know what you need. That's a cute of a good book, making visible. My publisher was like, we're going to call it this. and I advocated for orange. I really love it. Oh, it's just about to say it.

I really love orange. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then she was like it needs to pop. It pops. Oh, great. Okay. I'm going to keep my eyes peeled. Sorry, now.

Catherine, it was wonderful having you on. Thank you so much. So much. And I will be reading that book very soon. Thank you. That's a wrap on another episode of Mum's a Word. Thank you so much for joining us today as we were joined by the amazing Catherine Carr.

Don't forget to leave us a review. Follow us on socials at at Mum's the Word underscore pod and subscribe to our YouTube channel where you can watch our episodes in full. Just search Mum's the Word. Until next time, I'm Georgia Jones and this is Mum's the Word

and we'll be back with another episode, same time, same place next week.