Mum's The Word! The Parenting Podcast - SECRET LIFE OF DADS: Post-Natal Depression as Dads & Navigating Difficult Situations As Men

Episode Date: April 6, 2025

In this candid and illuminating episode of Mum’s The Word, Georgia Jones is joined by Matt and Lawrence, hosts of the Secret Life of Dads podcast, for a refreshing take on fatherhood that often goes untold.Together, they open up about the challenges they faced with postnatal depression as dads, exploring how it can manifest differently than the maternal experience and the importance of seeking support.They also share their honest feelings around not instantly bonding with their newborns, tackling the guilt, fear, and expectation that can come with early days of parenthood. Finally, as proud “girl dads,” Matt and Lawrence discuss navigating difficult conversations with daughters, from body image and friendships to setting healthy boundaries. Tune in to hear how these dads are embracing vulnerability, redefining traditional fatherhood roles, and forging stronger family connections every step of the way.A Create Podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

FanDuel Casino's exclusive live dealer studio has your chance at the number one feeling. Winning. Which beats even the 27th best feeling saying I do. Who wants this last parachute? I do. Enjoy the number one feeling. Winning. In an exciting live dealer studio. Exclusively on FanDuel Casino. Where winning is undefeated. 19 plus and physically located in Ontario. Gambling problem? Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca. Please play responsibly. Welcome back to another episode of Mums the Word. I'm Georgia Jones and I'm so excited to be joined

in the studio by an amazing duo. Joining me today is none other than the incredible Matt Carter and Lawrence Price from The Secret Life of Dads. We've got so much to chat about. We debunk some of the biggest myths about fatherhood, the truth about postnatal depression from a dad's perspective, and how they handle parenting disagreements.

So grab a cuppa, get comfy, and let's jump in to a brand new episode of Mums The Word. Hi boys! Hello! Lads, lads, lads! You've got two dads in the studio! I know, I feel worried!

Is this a first? It's not a first, but you're my first straight dads. Ah! Yes. Representing the straight dads. Representing the straight dads. Men that are married to women. Yes.

And have a heterosexual relationship. That's right. Thank you for the definition. There we go. That's a good start. This is what these boys are. So for anyone, The Life of Dads, this is your podcast. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And for anybody that doesn't know, tell us a bit. So we've got Matt, we've got Lawrence. Yeah. Well, Lawrence. And for anybody that doesn't know, tell us a bit. So we've got Matt, we've got Lawrence. Yeah. Well, Lawrence, do you want to go first? Secret Life of Dads is an exploration of the modern father as he is plucked out of obscurity and placed into modern times and has to navigate the ever-changing landscape of which the ground is constantly moving beneath his feet. And is this, am feet and is this what we're doing?

Yeah, that's fine. I don't know what we're doing with this podcast. You look quite frightened. That's why I love doing a podcast with Lawrence because I never know what's going to come out of this now. But yeah, essentially we started the Secret Life of Dads because we just felt a little bit lost in this role of fatherhood. Trying to understand what it is to be a dad in the modern world, because the roles of dads, I think, have changed a bit. Like since our dad's generation, traditionally, dads would go out, mums would be at home, everybody knew their roles, and now there's

a bit of a cross. So that's essentially where the podcast started from. And then also like a form of therapy as well, like for both of us, for me in particular, because I found the first year quite challenging, which I'm sure we'll go into today. Yeah. Talking about like modern fatherhood, parenthood. Do you ever feel like you revert back to a bit of like caveman instincts though, when you do first have a kid?

Because it's kind of like, well, I felt as a man, I have to go and provide, I have to make sure we have enough money as a family, and then the woman is obviously at home with the baby initially. Did you feel that pressure? Did you feel like you had to provide? Yeah, I did massively. And Matt and I had slightly different experiences

in the first year or two after becoming dads, but mine was very much that. It was almost like this blunt instrument just hit it as hard as I possibly could and showing up to as many kind of work opportunities as possible, getting massively into hustle culture, pushing myself, not getting much sleep and then it all coming to a head where the threshold was breached and I kind of exploded into this anxious ball, this anxious kind of mess. So yeah, that was very much my, my reaction and it wasn't really thought through. It wasn't considered. I know now that I was also going through a whole

host of different hormonal changes, which I didn't even know dads could go through when they become dads as well. Oh yeah. Just like George. You've done your research by. This is all the stuff now that in hindsight that we are, we're finding out through exploring it through the podcast to our own experiences, but having spoken to a whole host of different experts

over the last year as well. So yeah, we're discovering and learning a lot in hindsight, but it's quite useful for us to reflect upon that first year or two of fatherhood and to understand a little bit about our behaviors and why we behaved, you know, how we did. Because it's a real shock the first year, isn't it? I think equally for the relationship, but you individually,

because there's a sense of kind of grief for your old life as well. I remember when my daughter Rayda first came in, there's so much friction in terms of, oh, God, I miss when I could just get up and not be screamed at and trying to understand these new roles. And then equally trying to understand the new roles in your relationship because in that moment everything changes in your relationship. So yeah, Lawrence had a very different kind of first year. Lawrence is very much, as he just said then, straight into work 110 miles an hour. I found it very difficult to connect with Aurelia within the first year. And I think, as Lawrence said,

so hormonally dads will have a 20% drop in testosterone, which for us, yeah, so it's essentially to traditionally back in the day that it would mean that dads would bond more and stay within the unit. Okay. And also give the woman a bit of a break. Exactly. Yes, exactly. Pretty much. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We had an amazing guest on who spoke about this, like the evolution of fatherhood and how dads would assess, she used the term dad saved the human race.

Yeah, we're not obviously arguing. So basically, that's for the win. Yeah, the Lord of Isis just went down there. Yeah. But the science behind it was is that as our prefrontal cortex, our brain got bigger, toddlers, children were really hard to control and manage and mums couldn't do it by themselves. So that's when dads kind of stepped in to help with the nurturing and everything like that. The exploration for us through the pod is understanding that, oh yeah, we also go through hormonal shifts. We go through physical changes, we go through psychological changes. But this was

something that we didn't know before, because we were very much in that previous generation of fatherhood of it's you keep storm, you keep quiet, dads will do this, moms will do that. And because the lines are blurred now with dads staying at home a lot more, dads want to spend three times more with their children than previous generations are doing, I think it's difficult for dads. Equally, it's difficult for moms. The script is with moms going the other way now, moms wanting to have a career and maybe not be at home so much.

So it's a really interesting time to be in the parenthood space. It is, isn't it? Because I just don't think either that we talk and vocalize. Like, I certainly didn't go in, I do want to work though, so I want to have a career. I think you never quite know either. So when you're in the thick of the pregnancy and it's all exciting and you've never had a baby before

and it's always like, oh, we're gonna have a baby, then you have the baby. And it's always like, oh, we're gonna have a baby. Then you have the baby. And it's just like, everything changes. Your roles in life completely change. So did you boys feel that? Yeah, I think there's that. I definitely within the first year, that sense of you go to the bottom of the pecking order.

Yeah. And it's like overnight that happens as well. And it's like, oh wow. But equally it's really hard to go and ask for love at the same time because your partner's going through it all physically. And I think that's just where dads might find it hard in the first stages because physically it's all happening to mom, like everything that you can see. Yeah. But equally, there's so much going on within dads. We've spoken about this on the podcast about dads who they find out they're going to be a dad and part of them is like, shit, I don't even know if I was

ready to be a dad. The unexpected fatherhood role is a huge part. Yeah. Now I think I was anticipating that and I was very much supportive of that as well for my wife and for my daughter to be the priority and to take president and for me to sit into the back seat. But I think in hindsight, I was probably replacing a lot of the love that I wasn't getting with purpose around my work and keeping busy. And that's probably where I found that outlet of purpose, which again, there's a dosage, which is healthy, but I probably went past that threshold where it became unhealthy. So that's not a great response to either. Somewhere in the middle, I don't know where that middle is.

Yeah, cause it's funny, cause like you say with the work thing, did your wife ever say to your partner, ever say to you, you're never here? And then were you like, but I'm doing this for us. Yeah, totally. And actually I pushed that even further and looking back, you have chapters of your life,

particularly when it comes to parenthood in the early years, we were like, how did we get through that? Yeah. But I'd often- It's a blur, isn't it? I mean, so we weren't married at the time, but we are now, but my wife found out that we were pregnant after a week of moving out of London to Hampshire. So I was still very much working in London, that's where all my work commitments were.

So during the first year of our daughter being born, I was spending two or three nights sometimes staying away from home. So it was challenging for her because she was essentially being a single parent. And then I was just completely absorbing myself in as much work as I could possibly find. So it was a weird kind of detachment. And then we would come together for the other two or three nights of the week and try to be like a real family nucleus. So there was togetherness, but separation, she would have found it incredibly tough, you know, a number of nights a week. I would have felt like I was just out there on this crazy man mission to provide. And then when my son was born two years later, that was for us the line

that we wanted to draw in the sand where I shift completely out to working at home, then I'm at home 24-7. And we try and learn a little bit from the challenges of our first child. So you learn from their first child. And also our first child was very challenging. She still is, to infinity, but she was very, very challenging. And also not very affectionate as well, at the start with me or her mom. She was just like this ball of energy. Did you find that hard not having that affection from your child? Yeah, I think I surrendered to it pretty early.

I know, I remember waiting and wanting to have those moments of connection. Yeah. And they probably didn't come till she was about two or three, two months. And then she started to get very interactive with me. And then now she's like hugging me, kissing me on the lips, won't let me leave before, you know,

she's incredibly affectionate. But in those early years, that't let me leave before, you know, she's incredibly affectionate, but in those early years that wasn't the case. So I suppose I just kind of held out and maybe created a bit of a joke of that with my partner, just saying, at some point she's gonna love me. At some point she's gonna love me. I did that with Ches so much, like so much of that.

It's like, it's a bit tongue in cheek, isn't it? It's like, oh, I can't wait till I get a kiss or a hug. Like, would you all both always say it a little bit jokey though? Because I think that's a problem. Oh, not problems so much. It's just a bit of an issue with dads is that the way they sometimes say things to their partners

is jokey. So we kind of just go, oh, they're fine. They're fine. You know, we're the ones that have had the baby. And this comes from no bad place for me. I totally understand. Like I actually don't think there is enough support for dads, especially in terms of mental health

after having babies. But I don't know, I think, cause we just think you're the strong ones and you're gonna be okay. Which is a complete misconception of men. You're not, you don't always have to be strong and you don't always have to be okay. That we, when you do then come and say something to us like,

oh, one day they'll love me, but joking, we don't realize it's actually something that maybe is affecting you a little bit. Like with you, Matt, you found it quite hard to actually connect with Aurelia, didn't you? Yeah, I did. I think the first year, especially, as Lauren said, I think I had this idea of what being a dad would be,

kind of coined maybe from Hollywood and what I'd seen in the press and the media. And it happened. And then you kind of get through the first 48 hours or so with just adrenaline. You just, yeah. And you're like, okay, shit, this, this, and that, that's all the blur.

And then I just remember going through this, this really long period of not feeling a great connection. Like it just, it wasn't there. And then in doing so, I then went down this path where I built my own narrative story in my head of, right, is there something wrong with me here that I'm not feeling this connection? Is that what you felt then?

You felt rather than going, I'm probably not doing very well mentally, you went, is there something wrong with me? Yeah, but that's where eventually I went. So I remember with postnatal depression, we'd talk about it, we've spoken about it a lot on the show. And that is what you have. Well, that's, I mean, it made sense.

Yeah. Right, so 10 to 15% of moms will get it, in the UK, five to 10% of dads will get it. That's quite a lot. Which is a lot. That's not a big difference. Yeah. Well, exactly. And then part of me thinks as well that, you know, probably I haven't seen many dads speak about it. And I remember I was going through the internet one day, I came across an article about postnatal depression in women. I just started reading it. This is probably like a year or so after. I remember being on the sofa with chest at time.

I remember seeing, oh yeah, there was something at the bottom of the article about dads having it too. And for me, I was like, holy shit, that is what I had. That's what it was. And for me, the diagnosis is, it gave me that sense of, oh, okay. It was that sense of, it was okay to feel that during that period.

But I wasn't aware that dads could have it. So equally- And you weren't aware that you were feeling that that's what it was. Well, no, I was just like, shit, is this now my life? Am I just gonna be just, and I just remember our relationship at the time because of it was testing. And when you have a child for the first time,

you're very much like, we found we were just like passing ships in the night. Okay, your turn with the baby now, your turn. You go do your shift and then you forget about the core, the relationship, which everything is built upon. But it's not, you know, we've started to have more conversations and because of the secret life of dads, we've had, you know, in our inboxes, we get messages from dads, which is really, I find it really rewarding. And really, really empowering. And I remember we did a TikTok about it.

And there was, I always remember there was one comment in the TikTok that just said, holy shit, that's what I had. That's what I had. And just the idea that dads have got to find out about this at the bottom of a TikTok, or in some article somewhere on the backend of the internet. Yeah, it should be, it should be talked about.

But it's the same with, we're only just starting to talk about men's mental health. What are the suicide rates of men? It's ridiculous, isn't it? It's staggering. And I think dads find it really hard to talk about because everything physically is happening to mum. And I think the work that we're trying to do

is just understand the hormonal shift that dads are going through as well, equally as moms. I always feel like it shouldn't be one side against the other. And I feel like the social space does that with moms and dads one side. So it's not like you're taking one from the other. It's just giving a sense of like empathy.

Yeah. Did you feel guilty? Oh yeah. Yeah, massively. What about me? Yeah, massively. I remember so I started therapy because of it. And the therapist said, I've spoken about this before, but you know, ask your wife what it's like to live with you. And it's a really

powerful question. And I remember going back thinking, Oh, God, I'm not looking forward to this. And I think this was in the thick of it where I really been struggling and I knew I had to go. But essentially, I said, you know, I asked that question and that's kind of where I feel like chess and my marriage started. Yeah. Yeah, and it was a really nice moment of like, we were close to like, I don't know.

Like she said, I don't know if I want another child with you. Yeah. That's where we got to. Yeah. And I was like, I just don't know if I can go through this again. It's been lovely actually, cause it's been quite, you've both been quite vocal about it online.

It's incredible how having a baby can sometimes be for part of your relationship, the worst thing in the world. Like it makes you realize like, you know, when people have a baby to fix their relationship, you're like, wow. You're like, no, what are you doing? Why would you do that? Yeah, but we spoke about this recently.

It's like, we've got like a lot of our friends are starting to have kids now. And this is part of me that's so excited for them because I don't wanna like be the, you know, like baddie and say kids are the worst. Like I love fatherhood. I think it's amazing. Like I really started a first day at school the other day

and seeing her in a uniform, it's just the capacity for love I have now is huge. It's monumental. But equally the challenges that I know that my friends are gonna go through. There is part of me that's huge, it's monumental. But equally, the challenges that I know that my friends are gonna go through. There is part of me that's like, it's really difficult to navigate that conversation when people first find out they're pregnant.

Cause you don't wanna be negative too. You don't wanna go, oh. You don't wanna go, you're fucked. But I think there needs to be that support system in play. Like when the child comes into the world, I think there should be something that focuses on the relationship. Like we've spoken about that with Anna on the podcast.

Look, the challenge that your relationship is gonna go through, and there are things that they do in the States. I don't think they've done it over here, where parents will have like a eight or 10 week course that's just focused on their relationship as opposed to the baby. Prior to baby or after baby?

After, yeah. That's a great idea. I think it's great, because the baby can kind of take care of itself. It's focusing on you and your partner, and has been monumental. Lawrence, when Matt was in the thick of it and probably hadn't quite realized himself

that he had postnatal depression, as a best mate, did you see this big shift in him? Strangely enough, he was so good at hiding it. So we would meet up and actually I thought the opposite so now I believe that he was probably overcompensating for what he was feeling internally and his masking was to the point where he seemed really jolly when I'd meet up with him and then eventually he asked to meet up that we went out for dinner because we were

gonna discuss podcasting matters and that's when he just laid it all on the table about what he'd been going through. And I had absolutely no idea. And I was someone who's closest to him. So it's just another example of how men, like you were saying earlier, can use humor in particular as an avoidance to actually mask and cover up deeper underlying issues, which of course is dangerous. At the time, it feels like a nice way to defer attention from confronting a hard topic and having that hard conversation, particularly with our partners at home. But eventually, whether it's resentment, whether it's a depressive or anxious state that builds up inside you, there's a threshold that comes out. And I'm just so glad that he mentioned it and had that conversation. Well, honestly, this guy, he's helped me so much. And it's literally,

for us, it is very much like just going down to the pub with your mates. And I think for me, that was a big part of my outlook for this year was actually like less therapy, more time with my mates. Yeah. Because that is a huge part that nobody tells you about when you become a parent, like the focus that moves away

from your friendship groups. And I think dads in particular, they really need that space. I agree. And I was then very like, oh, I can't do that because of the kid. But then equally going forward, if we're lucky to have a child again, like part of me is just we know now what we need, how to keep our cups full. It's like, no, you go have that time with the guys tonight.

It's really important. But I think a lot of dads and a lot of men in particular, they'll shut themselves away because it's easier not to start the conversation. So saying that the confidence that I've got back in my life, in myself since beginning conversations, and it's all really started with this man. He's honestly, he's been... Right, plus Lawrence. Yeah, Lawrence. He's been a great friend.

Well, I just truly think that on the flip side of that, one of the most sacred things that men can do is just hold space for each other and And not trying to fix or shift or change, it's just hold that space non-judgmentally with compassion and just be there. And not be like, not joking. Like you see all these men being such lads and I can totally see how it would be difficult to then open up to a friend that's like a proper laddie,

you know, laddie lad, well, you'll be all right, mate. Because that's kind of like how men have kind of grown up to be. Like our parents' generations, it's all like slap on the back, you'll be fine. What's depression? Growing up, like I had barely heard of it because it just wasn't a thing in Yorkshire.

I mean, it was, but people would just skirt over it. And I think when you grow up of that generation, that's what you're taught to do. I think our generation has made such a huge leap forward, haven't we, in terms of mental health, which hopefully means our kids are going to be pretty level-headed. Watch them all be absolute nutters now.

I would be like, so that's working. But even navigating that space as a parent now, right? Of talking to our kids about what emotions they're feeling and everything. And equally, I don't know if that is, don't think our parents did that. And that's not against them. It's just something that wasn't the norm then.

They didn't do that. So now it's like, look, what emotion are you feeling today? Like happy hands, that, you know, it's really interesting navigating that space as well but we're the first generation I think really mainstream now as well with films like inside out it's almost like a table you know yeah topics for us to explore so it's very much normalized you know for for our children to talk about what or what weather system they're feeling inside in the early ages and then they can start to understand that it's very natural. Thunder. Yeah, to thunder. Tsunami.

Tsunami, yeah. Tornado. Again! For the fourth day in a row, Kube came home with some homework actually, it was really sweet because they don't tell you and I took it out and it was what made him feel certain feelings. So it was like, what makes you feel sad? Homework.

I was like, oh my gosh, you are so innocent because the things that made him happy and excited and sad were all like going on my scooter. I was like, oh God, stay home. Stay home. Stay home. Stay home, essentially. We've just started like the homework stage.

Like just, I mean, it's little things of bringing books, but yeah, it's funny. We had a funny day at school today where I really had to go in and like a green t-shirt. It was like a house coloring day. Oh, okay. And I was like, oh God. And then my wife was away.

So I was like, I have no idea where a green t-shirt is. So I found this white jumper that had broccoli on it. And I was like, nothing. I don't know if that kind of worked of worked. Talking about not knowing where. Broccoli. Talking about broccoli. Let's hope because my child's got the most age-diet you've ever seen. Do you have an insatiable fascination with the paranormal?

Brace yourself for the supernatural world is about to reveal all of its secrets on the Paranormal Activity podcast. And who better to guide you through this hair-raising journey than myself, Yvette Fielding, renowned paranormal investigator. Every episode of Paranormal Activity takes you on an unforgettable adventure into the unknown. But that's not all. The true heart of this podcast lies in the stories, evidence and questions shared by our devoted listeners. Will you dare to join me? Listen to Paranormal Activity with me, Yvette Fielding, wherever you get your podcasts from. FanDuel Casino's exclusive live dealer studio has your chance at the number one feeling, winning, which beats even the 27th best feeling saying I do.

Who wants this last parachute? I do. Enjoy the number one feeling, winning, in an exciting live dealer studio, exclusively on FanDuel Casino, where winning is undefeated. 19 plus and physically located in Ontario. Gambling problem? Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca. Please play responsibly. Talking about not knowing where things are, right? This is a question from me as a wife, as a mother. Why do us as women seem to know where everything is?

But you guys who have been parenting the exact same amount of time as us, don't. Why do you think it is? Do you think it's just because we're wired differently? Do you mean things around the house, like items? Green t-shirts. Would you know where Aurelia's socks? Yes.

Right, okay, you would. I would, yeah. You would. Yeah, because she's thrown them at me many times. You wouldn't necessarily know where Aurelia's socks? White, okay, you would. I would, yeah. You would. Yeah, because she's thrown them at me many a time. You wouldn't necessarily know where to find a green t-shirt or her gloves. Yeah. Her gloves.

I'm actually pretty good with stuff like that. Okay, right. You take it back then. Because I spend, I would say, 50-50. Yeah. In the first couple of years, definitely didn't. But now we're in a really different stage of parenting and I'm really fortunate that I get to spend

as much time with her as I do. But that green t-shirt I couldn't find for shit. Yeah. What are you going to do? No, no, I am terrible. There's this weird thing that happens where I could be looking for something for the kids or for myself.

I'll open a drawer, it's not in the drawer. And I'm looking, I'll close the drawer and I'll say to my wife, I'm really looking for this thing, where is it? She'll open the drawer. It's not in the drawer and I'm looking I'll close the drawer and I'll say to my wife Miranda I'm really looking for this thing. Where is it? She'll open the drawer that I was just looking in and literally grab it from the center of the drawers if I was looking Past and then able to see it and it's a really strange phenomenon and it literally happens in the bathroom with toothbrushes Toothpaste and sorry toothpaste. I see I thought that was a Welsh thing. I thought you would have said That's one of my Welsh words.

Wow. So one of my best mates is from Cardiff and she says Tuth. So I'm from Cardiff too. He's from North Wales so we're slightly different. Sorry for looking at you like that. But that thing astounds me, right? Because I like to think of myself as quite a self-aware person about really tuning into presence and being like, okay, I'm looking for this thing.

Where is it? And it happens all the time. I don't want to sound like a cliche, but it looking for this thing. Where is it? And it happens all the time. I don't want to sound like a cliche, but it's a real thing. It's a real phenomenon. And it sounds as women as well, you know, cause we were just like, how? Yeah, I think we should start a charity or a fund for dads. We should start a charity for dads. There must be an organization for this. It is a serious condition. If anyone's listening. Mine is names. I'm so bad with new names. Especially in the school. I'm like, I've forgotten teachers names and I'm just going, you're right mate.

Yes. You would call everybody a mate guy. I can't call the female teachers mate. No, it's difficult for us as women because we don't really do mate. So it's like, hon. What's your go to? It's not a teacher. But to me, go to school. Right, hon. But yeah, anyway, sorry. Going back, you said something for far Lawrence and you use the word fixing it. I can't avoid it in what context, but I did want to ask about fixing it. I think it's a very masculine trait or masculine energy. It's like the doing energy, the fix things, the kind of make things happen, take a problem, find a solution. Whereas I guess the more feminine

energy is about compassion, holding space and that loving energy, which we've all got within us. This is not separating men and women. This is just when you feel that masculine energy, it makes you very much want to fix things This is just when you feel that masculine energy, it makes you very much wanna fix things. I find when I feel that feminine energy, I can slow down and I can hold space with a little bit more love and compassion. But yeah, I think, I don't think I'm alone in saying this

as a dad, particularly in the early stages, where there's a lot that fixing ain't gonna work. You can stand there and you can try and find as many solutions as possible, but it's not gonna work. And again, it's probably why I was trying to find or make myself useful in the first year or two of my first child is just go out into the world and fix loads of things and make loads of things happen and force it and force it. But just easing back into that space, somehow letting go of that urge and desire

to fix things as a man is sometimes the best thing we can do, I think. Yeah, because it stops that pressure on yourself. I mean, from a man's point of view, you feel like you're doing something useful with work because in so many ways you are, you're creating security, shelter, and all those basic needs. But also, it is definitely a form of avoidance as well,

because it's a lot easier to step out the door and go to something you know than it is to stay at home and be there where your logical concept of fixing things is no longer quite so. Yeah. So we had an amazing guy on called Alex who runs this group called the Dad Shift. Yeah. And it's all about paternity leave in the UK and that paternity leave is, yeah. And so it's the worst in Europe. It's like two weeks at like 180 quid a week. Like it's horrendous, but they're really starting to change this

because I think dads, they do really want to spend more time with their children. They want to be there. But then again, for- Yeah, they're doing a great one campaign at the moment for dads that are self-employed as well, because dads that are self-employed get absolutely nothing.

Yeah. So for us, hopefully, you know, being able to come up into a world where that is a thing, but at the moment, you just, you don't know, a lot of dads just don't have any choice. You know, I've got to go back to work. As well for like you and Ches, both self-employed. Like, I don't know what your wife says, Lawrence, but.

Oh, sorry, my wife's a teacher. Oh, okay, so, you know, she would have had some maternity pay, but like we had nothing. So I can understand those pressures of, but I think it's just that it boils down to the not talking. And working together as a team, rather than the separation of you versus me. And also considering the other person's cup again,

I think that expression you used earlier, I think you get to the point where both partners in the couple have poured their cups out and they're both on empty, and they're both going into this debate or argument about who's got the interest. Point scoring. Yeah, exactly.

But if we can, as couples, look to find little ways to fill up the other person's cup, you know, the classic take the baby out for a walk, you know, give your partner a couple of hours of just freedom, whatever it is. Without being asked. I think that's it. Just do it.

No asking, just do it. Yeah, exactly. Because I think if you get to the point where you're having to be asked, from the other perspective, it signals a lack of appreciation or understanding for your situation, which is almost more hurts more than the actual challenge of being tired of having all of these needs put upon you. So like, like again, like compassion and open conversations and being able to reach that

viewpoint as a unit rather than two separates is, it seems to be a theme that crops up all the time. Yeah, I do think we're wired differently as well. So I think women think a certain way and men just don't think the same way, which is fine. We are different, you know, like we are. So I think that's the problem is like, we both need to realize that the other one doesn't think that way.

Like I sleep with the bedroom door open, even though the landing light's on for Cooper and it might disturb my sleep, I want to make sure that I definitely hear him if he wakes up. But now I couldn't sleep knowing that I might not hear Cooper. What about you boys? Yeah, I mean, I'm guilty of that myself, I have to say.

And I will fall asleep and I think it happened today. I woke up and I was in the kitchen with Miranda. We were chatting and she was like, yeah. So, you know, Ivo was up three times last night with this Romney was up, you know, with that. And I was like, Oh, I had no idea. Seven hours of his sleep. So the thing is, I've always been the other way.

I'm super vigilant to Aurelia. I think part of that is where I struggled so much. Her screaming in the night for me was like a trigger. And it was like, and I think again, Ches has always really struggled with her sleep, but we were both and you kind of, you know, in the first couple of months, you just went, when they transitioned to their own room for the first time and you're just like, there's kind of one ear open and you're waiting, you've almost got that anticipation. That's what I had, yeah.

So I was probably wired a bit differently. I think you and me are very similar, and you know I had postnatal depression as well, which I didn't know. So same as Matt, like I knew I felt a certain way, and I felt shit that I felt that way, and I felt like a terrible mother, an absolute failure, what's wrong with me?

And it's only afterwards, isn't it? It's only when you're out of the thick of it that you go, oh, I think I might've had that. And then if someone tries and tells you, you're like, no, I'm fine, I'm fine. It's so hard to have self-awareness or separation or to view yourself with any kind of separation and compassion when you're in something like that. Whether it's depression or anxiety, you're just, it feels like you're just in this, you're being turned around this washing machine

of challenging emotion. And then the story just gets heavier and heavier. Like for me, it was kind of, I really got into running, but for me, it was not really the running, but it was like the escape. Yeah. And then I even found spending so much time in my head running was like, I was like, Oh my God, that's kind of when my whole therapy process had to start. I was like, I couldn't even go out for a run anymore. The story and the narrative in my head was getting so heavy for me. It's just loud, isn't it? It's just loud. Yeah. It's very busy. But the best way of, of quieting down the noise

is opening yourself up and being compassionate. I think equally if you're a dad going through that or a mom going through that, speak to your other moms, to your other dads, because it's so important. I think as Lauren said previously, if you've got somebody going through it, just be there to listen as well.

And we always ask, like on our show, is your best piece of parenting advice. A lot of the time it's just being present for them, just turning up. Just checking in as well. Not pushing an agenda on them, just listening to what they're going through. Yeah, I think it's important.

I think like for dads, I think to just say to their other dad mates, are you actually okay? Are you doing as well as you make out that you're doing? On social media. Yeah, and that's the thing with social media. You can make it look like you're having a bloody whale at the time and behind closed doors,

it might just be a completely different story. It's like today, so we're recording on Valentine's Day and I'm seeing all these Valentine's Day posts, I'm like, are you that happy now? Yeah. Are you sure? Well, there is actually new research out that suggests the more photos that you take with your partner,

the less in love that you are. So there was this whole really interesting study on social media that if you're posting loads of photos of you and your partner all the time, you're not actually that happy. So it's the ones that never post. I mean, again, no judgment. And if someone's listening and done this, great. And there's nothing to do me. Wonderful. But when. But when couples who live with each other, right on Facebook, happy Valentine's Day, darling, I love you so much.

It's like you're probably in the same room with them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I agree with you, completely. Just quickly to touch on the fact that you are both, I know Lawrence, you have a boy and a girl, don't you? But you both are girl moms. Yes. How do you feel about being dads of girls

in the world we are currently living in? I mean. Are you worried, are you scared or? I'm, mine's slightly younger, the Lawrence is. I'm slightly, where my worries and anxieties probably lie is understanding, dealing with tech and smartphones and social media. I'm actually starting to get really confident

in understanding more about the women's hormonal cycle and periods. And I want to be able to have, I saw a really interesting post about this is like, if it does, when it comes to happen with a radio, knowing where tampons are in a shop and just being really confident around that. Being okay to buy them.

Rather than just like sniggering about it and giggling and going, oh, speak to your mom about that. I don't really think we've got a generation of dads now who want to understand more about that. I mean I still can't do her hair that's where I struggle. Tutorial after tutorial. I've looked at them. I've looked at them. Yeah so my daughter again not to classify or label her in any way, so I won't, but she makes the decisions at lunchtime to play football with all the boys. She's the only girl that does.

Okay. So she, and she's very physical and she's very into that. And all the indications I'm getting at the moment is she's very assured in real world situations, in real life situations. So that's something I can have eyes on and help to nurture. Obviously, as we move forward, where it gets a little bit sticky and I get a little bit nervous is further down the line in the teenage years when social media starts to come into

it. Because I think back about when I was growing up and I was, if there were cameras around to film some of my behaviors that could then get repeated and shared I mean like I don't know how I would cope with that. So it's just gonna be a podcast with you, man Generally like that is that is a big so we've got a slow walk to that phase in life But by the time we get there in another five years time or so, I guess in life, but by the time we get there in another five years time or so, I guess, I'm hoping that we as a society have more boundaries in place and a better understanding of how to protect our teenagers, particularly at that age. I think it's a really challenging

stage in life, particularly with social media. So that's my impending kind of cloud on the horizon. Do you worry more about your daughter than yourself? Yeah. I mean, like in many ways I do, but I've never been a girl, so I don't know what it's like to grow up being a girl. So I just have assumptions about that and I'll obviously communicate with my wife as much as possible to understand.

Luckily, she's a teacher, so she understands the way of, the playground and everything else. But I'll also be super vigilant for different reasons and aware with my son and make sure that he understands how to grow up in, you know, in a healthy way as a man and as a boy and to navigate the world around him as well. I always ask girls ID, how old are you?

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think you know equally. That always worries me as a boy mom, it's like. And the bravado as well, I mean, most of the bravado that you hear, I would say, if you could filter through it, 90% as a teenage boy is bullshit as other people. Yeah, pushing you on.

And so you have this completely distorted paradigm about reality that comes from a hyper masculine angle, doesn't really consider the other side of it as much. So just trying to cultivate and nurture a really balanced approach to that is gonna be challenging, but worth putting the time in with our boys. Hope there's gonna be lots of like help books and things by the time we get to that stage.

I'm sure, but kind of equally, I feel like with the information overload that we do have now as well, it's I feel like there's something new to try every day with our children. I don't know if you feel that sense as well, but I think there is something to the older style of parenting still.

I mean, there's parts of it that I wouldn't take, but equally there is parts of it that I'm a big fan on. And I think a lot of parents' struggles comes from knowing too much rather than just feeding off instinct. The notion that you have to have some sort of information from another form. I did say to Koopoo that I actually talk about

like old school parenting, he held the door open for me and I went, oh, thank you, sir. I was like, that's a really nice thing to do for people, you know? And he was like, is it? And I was like, yeah, it's like gentlemanly. And as I said it, I was like, is this, do we, are we teaching kids this still?

Like being, like doing, holding doors open for women? I think holding doors open for women and men and anyone and everyone. Nobody wants a door in their face. No, and again like. Exactly, that's what, and it's just a nice thing to do. We don't need to gender open our doors. No, exactly, yeah.

I think it's one of those things that we went, I think as men we went to a think, as men, we went to a stage of not knowing if we were coming across condescending if we did that. But then just knowing that if we're coming from a place of respect and truth that we would actually courteously hold the door open for anyone and everyone, then that's all good. I think it's probably the lingering eye contact and staying there is the one we've got to say, I might be wearing drawl-line. Or somebody doing it at your front door.

You may leave now Lawrence. Lawrence, I really didn't need you to follow me on the whole. No blood off me, but thank you. Wow, such gentlemen. But boys, we're nearly, guys, men, we're nearly at the end of our show. Our talk like young people. We'll join you if you want.

We'll talk and mum's the word presenters. But what you're doing with the Secret Life of Dads is incredible and moving forward in this world with men having babies and needing somewhere to go for that support, what you're doing is incredible. So well done for that. Thank you. That's amazing. Thank you.

If anybody needs to find you, any men, or actually women that are listening who might want to like push their husbands in the direction of your job. That's where a lot of our first listenership it started again from moms passing it over to dads just because dads aren't seeking that space. So if anybody does want to listen is the secret life of dad's Spotify, Apple podcast and then same on social media as well. Boys it's been a pleasure thank you thank you so much for the work that you do as well it's great it's amazing yeah and how cool is it that we can team up or we have dad's podcast mum's podcast and we come together like this and have open conversations exactly really

really bloody marvelous. Bloody marvelous eh? Toothpaste. I'll see you on yours next week yeah. I'll see you on yours next week. That's a wrap on this episode of Mums the Word. A huge thank you to Matt and Laurence for joining us today. We hope you found it as enjoyable as I did chatting with them both. Stay tuned for more episodes where we'll continue diving into the realities of parenting. Don't forget to leave us a review, follow us on socials at mumsoeword.com and subscribe to our YouTube channel. Until next time, I'm Georgia Jones and this has been Mums the Word. And we'll be back with another episode, same

time, same place, next week. A chance to win with every spin and a guaranteed winner by 11 p.m. every day. 19 plus and physically located in Ontario. Gambling problem? Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connexontario.ca. Select games only. Guarantee void of platform or game managers occur. Guarantee requires play by at least one customer until jackpot is awarded or 11 p.m. Eastern. Research and supplies. See full terms at canada.casino.fandio.com.

Please play responsibly.