Murdaugh Murders Podcast - Cup Of Justice Bonus 1: Will The Murdaugh Murders Trial Happen In January?

Episode Date: September 11, 2022

Disclaimer: This episode contains language that some people may find offensive. In our first ever “Cup Of Justice” bonus episode of the Murdaugh Murders Podcast, Mandy Matney, Liz Farrell and Eric Bland unpack some big questions in the Murdaugh double homicide case.  When will the trial for the murders of Maggie & Paul Murdaugh actually happen? What’s Dick Harpootian’s strategy?  Why was Eric Bland working on a case with Dick Harpootlian and where does that stand? What happens next in the murder case? What about the evidence? In other BIG NEWS! since publishing this episode, Cup of Justice launched on its own feed and hit #1 on Apple on the first day!!! Please consider giving our newly launched Cup of Justice a 5 star review on Apple & Spotify to help us in our mission to expose the truth wherever it leads!! COJ on Apple: https://apple.co/3HHT9av COJ on Spotify: https://spoti.fi/3WMKkAI We all want to drink from the same Cup Of Justice — and it starts with learning about our legal system. What questions do y’all have for us? Email [e-mail] and we'll do our best to answer your questions in these bonus episodes. Consider joining our MMP Premium Membership community to help us SHINE THE SUNLIGHT! CLICK HERE to learn more: https://bit.ly/3BdUtOE What questions do y’all have for us? Email [e-mail] and we'll do our best to answer your questions in these bonus episodes. SUNscribe to our free email list to get alerts on bonus episodes, calls to action, new shows and updates. AND by sharing your email, we'll send details on exclusive content only available from our SUNScription email list - CLICK HERE to learn more: https://bit.ly/3KBMJcP And a special thank you to our sponsors: Microdose.com, VOURI, and others. Use promo code "MANDY" for a special offer! Find us on social media: https://www.facebook.com/MurdaughPod/ https://www.instagram.com/murdaughmurderspod/ Twitter.com/mandymatney YouTube Support Our Podcast at: https://murdaughmurderspodcast.com/support-the-show Please consider sharing your support by leaving a review on Apple at the following link: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/murdaugh-murders-podcast/id1573560247 *The views expressed on the Cup of Justice bonus episodes do not constitute legal advice. Listeners desiring legal advice for any particular legal matter are urged to consult an attorney of their choosing who can provide legal advice based upon a full understanding of the facts and circumstances of their claim. The views expressed on the Cup of Justice episodes also do not express the views or opinions of Bland Richter, LLP, or its attorneys. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

From the creative team behind the Brutelist and starring Academy Award nominee Amanda Seifred in a career best performance, Searchlight Pictures presents The Testament of Anne Lee. With rave reviews from the Venice Film Festival, this bold and magnetic musical epic tells the story inspired by a true legend. Anne Lee, founder of the radical religious movement, The Shakers, The Testament of Anne Lee. Exclusive Toronto engagement January 16th in theaters everywhere January 23rd. This week, we covered a lot of ground, but we want to do more to truly change these systems that have held up the good old boys for so long. The legal system is complicated, and we want to make these super complex issues in the podcast more easy to understand. So we're excited that we will be teaming up with attorney Eric Bland for bonus episodes to answer your questions about our justice system.

and we want to give you the public the tools to help fix these systems so we all can drink from the same cup of justice. I don't know how many bonus episodes we're going to do, but we have a really good one in store for y'all today. Hello and happy weekend, Murdoch Murders podcast fans. My name is Mandy Matney and we have an awesome episode in store for you today. There are been a lot of really exciting things happening with us at the MMP team. And today we're starting a little experiment with these new bonus episodes called Cup of Justice. The concept of all of this is simple. A year ago, this week actually, I called Eric Bland for the first time when I heard that he was hired by the Satterfield family to represent them. In the last year, Liz and I have spent

probably hundreds of hours on the phone with Eric, as we've all been trying to sort through this Murdoch mess and makes sense of all of it. And Liz and I both realized that Eric is just really good at explaining these incredibly complex legal issues in a way that's really easy to understand, which is just so important. So in this week's podcast, I did something that I wasn't really supposed to do, sorry, but I was really excited about this project and I got a little too specific about what we were going to talk about. My bad. I did mention Carmen Mullen and the 14th circuit, which we're going to get into all of that. But we have some other really great topics to cover today. And also, I want to say thank you so much to all of the fans who submitted questions.

We are going to cover as much ground as possible to get all of these legal questions answered. And please send us your questions to info at Murdochmurterspodcast.com. So these episodes are going to be unscripted and a lot different from the regular episodes. you're going to get unfiltered versions of the three of us and a lot more vocal fry from my end. So if you don't like it, don't email me about it. You know, we just don't have that much consumer protections for people in the legal world, especially in South Carolina. Yeah, and I was thinking about this.

Like, I didn't, I don't think I knew what a personal representative was before all of this. Or a conservator and the difference between that. So I don't blame the Satterfields for having this all to happen. I don't blame any of these people because it's, these subjects have just been like a, oh, let your lawyer handle it. And it's like, well. And again, these are people that like, you can trust because everybody knows. Yeah, you should be able to because everybody knows who they are. But conservator, like, I mean, the Britney Spears thing was a crash course for me.

I didn't know too much about it. I just knew that it existed. So knowing the differences of that, I think is important. But just as we go forward because we know, you know. the boat crash case is particularly complex. And then, I mean, you guys have all seen like the what goes on in the courtroom with Dick and Jim, there's going to, we're going to need somebody with some knowledge to help us through some pieces of that. And, you know, after those things happened, Mandy and I are always talking to our sources who in some cases, you know, are legitimately

our friends now, just like you would about like a football game or something, I guess. Like, we talk about what happened and like, you know. Whoa, that was crazy. Right. in those phone calls. Yeah, exactly. So we wanted to share that with you guys too, because there is a lot to learn from it. And, you know, there's so much that goes on. You just don't necessarily, I think when we were doing the commenting on the last hearing in the murder case, we realized, you know, like people were having difficulty hearing.

But when we're in the courtroom, we also have difficulty hearing. So it's nice that we are able to now record it and get so close up to the judge. And we can replay it. and look at actually what was going on and not miss things. I feel like it's so easy to miss things. Yeah, there's just every week we say there's a lot to unpack and there really is. And we're all getting to the point where there's so many cases going on. It's impossible to stay on top of everything.

However, with just bonus episodes, I think it'll make these subjects a lot easier to understand and not so overwhelming. And just really empower people and give them the abilities to understand. understand the law in their own lives. Eric, one of my favorite things about you is in that I thought of you as a different person when you sent that picture of you as a teenager to Liz and I, and you are very, like, scrawny. I know. You should probably say it a different way.

I just thought of you as a different person after that because I was like, that is where this guy came from. Right. Not like. I was the proverbial guy that got the sand kicked in his face at the beach. I was the proverbial guy if he was going to the bathroom in the urinal. Kid would come up and kick me in the back and push me in the urinal. And I got tired of it.

I was right. I got tired of it. I had a lot of friends and they used to have to stick up for me. If I was being abused in the lunch line or, you know, after school, you know, when we were playing sports. If I was getting picked on, I had a lot of bigger friends that stuck up for me, because I had a math and everybody liked to be around me because I had a big math. And I finally said, you know what, I'm going to start working out. So when I was about 15 years old, I started working out. And within two years, I went from like 98 pounds to about 170. Oh, my God. And then when I

graduated high school and went to college. I became a bodybuilder. I went from 170 to 235. So I found Liz, I found out that not only my voice made people listen to me, but the bigger I got, the more people would stop and listen. Yeah. People don't listen to small guys as much as they listen to bigger guys with a big mouth. Interesting. You say that. Doesn't apply to women. Yeah. I was going to say. Yeah, it's interesting you say that doesn't apply to women. Also, I think that we've heard. little man syndrome a lot when we're talking about the Murdoch cases. The Murdoch, Alex, very tall, but some of the guys in the case are, have little man syndrome.

Dick Harputlian's been accused of having little man syndrome his whole life. Not Dick. He has his buttons out there that say little dick. Vote for little dick. I'm serious. I'll show you the buttons, photos. I've gotten him. You really do? He gave him to me when he was running for state senator. So he's been accused his whole life of having small man complex and that's why he has this acid tongue. And if you really talk to a lot of people that are friendly with him and is socialized with him, he'll cut you down. Like if I walk into his office now,

and this was like a year ago, and I look bigger, somewhat built, somewhat built. He'll say, why do you work out? You're almost 60 years old. Why do you look like a muscle head? Or will say to me, you know, why do you wear your hair sticking up like that? It looks stupid. So it's a cut down. That's what he insults you. He insults you all the time. That's horrible. I'm not kidding.

I'm telling you. That's how, that's how you can get ahead of the conversation. Yeah, I say, look, Dick, you look like shit. I say, look at you. I say, look at you. Your guts hanging over your belt. You know, your teeth look like or, you know, go get your teeth whitened. You know, I give, no, I honestly, I gave it back to him just as hard as he would try to give it to me. I mean, I don't tolerate it. And everything's a joke with him. If you're in with a client really on a serious matter about murder, he makes a joke about everything. And some things aren't appropriate where you would joke when somebody's sitting in front of you in charge with murder. He doesn't really think there's a lot of humor. Ask around.

Ask Joe McCull. He's got an extremely sharp tongue, a very dry. sense of humor. He's witty. Eric, is he likable? Do you think people like him or they're just afraid of him? No, they're not afraid of him. No, he has a lot of people that like him. And there's a couple close friends that he has where he's not quite the dick,

you know, dick, dick move all the time. But when he's in public, he tries to make himself funnier than he is. It's a quip. It's a joke. And the older that he's gotten, he tells a lot of war stories when you're, in a meeting or you're in chambers. And, you know, some people like war stories, some people don't. But no, he will tell you he's not

a likable person. There's people that want to be around him because he's a power mover. I mean, he's a powerful person. He's the third person that Joe Biden will call on the phone. I mean, he's that powerful. And we will be right back. I had worked with

Dick Harpoon for the better part of the last 24 years that predated the Murdoch case. We had a lot of clients in common, whether it was catastrophic personal injury clients or criminal defendant clients. And it just so happened to Greg Leone matter was a client that both of us had represented for a long period of time. Greg's a long-term client and friend of mine, and I represented him on all his civil and business interests. He owns a lot of Mexican restaurants. And Dick represented him on a number of criminal matters. They were white collar criminal matters.

just so happened. So you got along with Dick then before all those? I did. I did. You know, I wouldn't say we were friends, but we were definitely colleagues. And I was on the inner circle where, you know, he would take my call. And if I had a client that needed to be referred, he would, he, he would represent that client. And the Greg Leon matters, a tragic matter, because he's such a great guy. And on Valentine's Day, on 2016, unfortunately, he caught his, wife in a very compromising position in a car in a parking lot and he was threatened by his wife's lover and in turn he felt his life was threatened and so in self-defense he shot the man three times and he was charged with murder attempted murder on his wife discharge of a felony in a car and then

aggravated battery four charges and because dick is six years ago six years ago six years ago. This happened six. And so obviously, he's still waiting trial. He predated the murder on matter. He's still on trial. It was supposed to go, it is going to go to trial in January. Dick was going to try it in January. I originally was co-counsel with Dick

on the case, but the state indicated that they were going to name me as a witness because on the night of the murder, I was the one that delivered Greg to law enforcement and handed him over. And there were a number of different things that happened that night.

that they want to put me on the stand for probably to show that there was evidence of Greg's guilt or flight. I think it's an absolute travesty that he was charged with murder. I don't believe it was murder at all. I think if you look at the video and see the time delay from when he opened the car door to when the flash of the gun went off, it's clear that there was a discussion between him. and his wife supports the self-defense aspect of this case. But it's just tragic that on a Valentine's Day after he took his wife out to dinner, he found out that his wife was cheating on him.

And it's a highly emotional case. And I don't think the solicitor in the 11th Circuit, Rick Hubbard, is going to be able to get 12 people to convict him of murder under those circumstances. The reason it's so relevant in the case now, is because Dick up until a week and a half ago was his lawyer and was telling the court and the client that I'm trying your case in January. And we do know this January date's a real important date because Dick's been throwing it around in the Murdoe matter. And he was going to be trying the Murdoch case as soon as possible. And it's very, very difficult for a lawyer to get ready for two murder trials.

And it's almost impossible for them to try two murder trials in the same month. especially after. Though he has had six years to prepare for this one. He did. There was a number of times where it was called for trial and then it didn't go forward. But he was prepared to try this case actually in August. It was scheduled originally to go to trial last month. But Greg was charged with attempting to bribe allegedly a witness in the case.

And Dick used that as an opportunity to get himself off as Greg's attorney. And that is something that's causing, in addition to the existing conflict that I have with Dick and the existing tension, this is just raised it to a really high level. I'm pretty upset with Dick about doing it. I don't think he should have recused himself. More importantly, he got paid a tremendous sum of money to represent my client friend, and now my client friend has to go out and hire Jack Swirling. And Dick is not giving him any of his money back, which I don't think is right. Can he do that? That doesn't seem right. No, it doesn't seem right. Dick can do anything he wants. The question is, is the client going to do anything about it? I think right now the client's focused on, you know, getting his new lawyer up to speed, Jack swirling and focusing on getting ready for trial.

I think what I have spoken to you about and what's like fascinating to me and what I think people don't really understand right now is that first of all, Dick has been very adamant about, I want to try this case in January, this double homicide case. He was saying that, by the way, at the same time he was representing Greg Leone, and Greg Leone's trial was in January. Okay? Exactly. And he was still representing him at the time. Correct. So, and now we have all this, they got the evidence two weeks ago, week and a half and a go, whatever it was. And we've heard nothing. from Dick demanding a trial in January. Or you also haven't heard Dick say they're holding back evidence.

I haven't heard that either, right? That's true. Do you think that's what his move would be? Sure. Somebody would say, look, there's not this blood evidence. You didn't give me this. Or I know there's other things because this investigative agency came in and did this testing. usually there's some kind of disagreement in what has been turned over.

It would appear that we haven't heard from Dick in two weeks that the state gave a full, complete production. I mean, Dick, Dick believes in momentum, Mandy and Liz. So he had momentum. He had the public mic. He had, you know, the microphone. So if he had an opportunity to keep it going, because the state produced. less than what they should have produced,

I'm sure there would have been another press conference. Yeah, exactly. And I mean, I just keep going back to that entire show. I think that's what we can all call it. Actually, it wasn't court. It was just a show. Yeah. Of him demanding a trial in January and just,

Eric, you as a lawyer, and the trials that you have done, how far out does planning involve and preparation? Well, I mean, Greg Leone's preparation, Dick had been doing for five years for a murder case. Greg Harrison, I tried a murder case. It took us a year and a half of preparation before we were capable and felt capable to go to trial. I mean, Dick now is into gutting in October and he just got the forensic evidence.

He has to line up a ballistic expert. he's got to line up a blood expert. He's got to line up a pathology expert on the cause of death who died first. He has to have his own technological expert for the triangulation of the phone. He may have to have a human factors expert that would contradict why Alex when he called 911, you didn't hear him screaming into the phone like, answer the damn fuck. already when it was ringing. You know what I'm saying? So how do you get all these experts? You just can't call one on the phone. You got to meet with them. You got to see if they'll give an opinion

that is favorable to your client. All these things have to be prepared. You have to talk to witnesses. You have to make a decision. Are you going to put your client up on the stand? There's so many different things. And by the way, a lawyer just doesn't have one case. You know, Dick Harputley is a successful lawyer, and he's got a lot of different cases going on. So is it realistic to think that this is going to be tried in January? The answer is no.

Is it possible? Sure. Sure, it's possible. Alex may want that trial as soon as possible. But why does Alex get his trial and all the other people that have been sitting in jail for four years on murder charges, haven't gotten their cases called. I'm sure if you guys look in Colleton County,

there'll be some murder defendants that are waiting for trial or serious armed robbery or aggravated assault with high aggravated nature that had been sitting in jail because of COVID, there wasn't any trials for a year. Why does Alex get to go to the front of the line? Is that the different cup of justice that he drinks from? I don't know. So for me, the Satterfields are victims. They lost a sister. The Plyler girls are victims. They lost a mother and brother. So the state chose to bring all these other financial crimes first. Why do these people have to wait for their day of justice against Alex? Why does Alex get to get his murder case tried first? Those are questions I have. And we'll be right back.

So the other thing is, why aren't they trying Alex on the Labor Day shooting charge, insurance fraud and attempted murder charge? There's zero proof of insurance fraud happening here. Right, right. That's why they were in... Because that was a stupid move by SLED. It was a contrived shooting that didn't really work, obviously, between Cousin Eddie and Alex, and Alex wanted to probably show the world, my goodness, there's crazy people out there that were really trying to kill me and my family. Didn't work. Backfired.

Literally. Right. It backfired. No, but I think that the thing that a lot of people, I think a lot of people following this case are under the actual impression that it'll happen in January. Well, no judge has said that, Mandy. Yeah, I know. I know. I know. But Dick Hart-Putley and says it very confidently, so the media believes in that.

Usually the solicitor is the one that calls a case to trial, not a defense attorney. The solicitor controls their criminal docket in every county. Now, this is different because it's a state grand jury charge, but the local murder charge is on Colleton County. And so that would be the solicitor-court. calls the case when they're ready to try the case. Now, has the state said, we're ready to try it in January? I'm not sure. Is it going to be Judge Newman? I'm not sure. Is it? Do you know? I mean, they change their mind all the time. Right. I think it looks good from Dick's standpoint

that he's screaming, I'm ready to go to trial. My client wants to go to trial so we could find out who the real killer is. Now, two things. One, he said, the state has to show motive. The state doesn't have to show motive for murder. So it's not, that's not a burden of proof on the state. But Dick just took on a burden that he shouldn't have took on, which is, we're going to find the real shooter. And he also said at a different hearing, my client's innocent. Different standard to say your client's innocent as opposed to not guilty. That's a completely different standard. So, I don't know. You know, it's, it's a big case to try by January.

What does that mean when you have a burden to take on for saying that you found the other shooter? Well, if your affirmative defense is self-defense, then you as a defendant have a burden of proof. It shifts to you. The state has the burden of proving your guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. And we talked before, beyond a reasonable doubt, the way I like to look at it, it's a football. field and they catch the ball at your 20. You don't have to cross the end zone to the other side, but you've got to get pretty close, like the three-yard line.

In a civil case, civil lawsuits that I have sued for Alex and I've sued Russ and I've sued Palmetta State Bank, it's a preponderance of the evidence standard, which is more likely than not, just the tip of the balance of the scale. You look at that football field, all I ever have to do is cross the 50-yard line. All Mark Tinsley has to do in the Mallory Beach case is show more likely than not Parker Convenience Store was responsible for Mallory Beach's death. Just crossed the 50. I think Mark's going to be able to just cross the 50.

I think Mark's going to get close to the end zone, although that's not what his burden of proof requires. But for a criminal case, it's beyond a reasonable doubt. You must have, it must be a reasonable doubt, not all doubt. You don't ever have to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt. But if you have a reasonable doubt that Alex is not guilty, and there could be one juror. You know, all Dick has to speak to is one juror.

Now, what is Dick going to do between now and January if the case goes to trial? He's going to hire a jury consultant, Mandy and Liz. he's going to do a shadow jury trial. He's going to hire two or three jury consultants who are going to pick the typical juror that you would want as a defendant. As a defendant, I think Dick would want somebody younger, somebody that is not so educated that Dick could connect to and is malleable. you definitely don't want some old World War II guy you don't want a teacher

that's smart and going to be analytical you wouldn't want somebody like Liz and Mandy on that jury who are really smart and can see through smoke so they're going to tell Dick the perfect juror to get and they're going to canvas those

county the county and they're going to see yeah it's going to be a 28 year old or a 20 six-year-old, this is what you're going to want. And so then these companies go out and they hire these type of jurors. And they bring them into a room and Dick will give them a forecast of what the trial will be like. And somebody will play the prosecutor, whether it's Creighton Wooders or somebody is going to play a witness. And Dick would cross-examine them.

And then they'd get feedback. So Dick's going to have to do shadow jury trials. In addition to prepare for the trial, you actually, in these kind of big cases, you do a focus group jury, a shadow jury, to see what arguments resonate and work and which arguments don't. So it is a tremendous amount of work. And Dick Carputinian is a little long in the tooth. You know, you're talking about a 73, 74-year-old guy.

this is 24-hour-a-day work to get ready for the trial of the century. You know, Dick can't just go in there and try it off the seat of his pants. This has to be expert-driven. It has to, you know, be choreographed. These, this is, this doesn't happen. It doesn't get baked out of a cookbook or anything like that. It takes a lot of skill in time. But do you think that like the, and his whole thing,

about demanding for the evidence and whining and crying about how things were being unfair? Do you think he was establishing something there? No, I think it was an empty barrel screaming the loudest. You know, empty barrels make the loudest noise. I think it just was to create momentum, take the attention away from the heinous nature of this crime. Remember, for a year, there's not been one other suspect. You know, you guys are pretty good at what you do. There has been no other suspect for a year. And if there was, you guys would have found it out.

Because you found out everything. Yeah. You haven't been wrong on one single thing you two. You're batting a thousand. Liz and I went back and forth and back forth on a million things. But at the end of the day, all of our sources led all roads to out. Alex, like there was no other way of getting around that. Right.

The only other, like, semi-distraction was that CB Rothing. You know, law enforcement's a lot like doctors. They do a differential diagnosis. Doctors eliminate, well, this isn't this. It's not this. It can't be this. It can't be that. It's got to be this.

And that's how they get your diagnosis. They don't immediately say you have appendicitis. They eliminate, well, it's not gas. your kidneys, it's not this, okay, it's your appendix. Well, law enforcement does the same thing. They don't just start with Alex. Yes, they have them in his mind, but they say, okay, who else was an enemy of Paul? Who else was an enemy of Alex? Could it have been Buster? No, Buster had a good alibi. Could it have been anybody that worked at the farm? No, they weren't there. Could it have been a brother or a sibling? Were they fighting? No. Did Maggie have money problems? No.

They eliminate, and it always comes back to Alex. That's how it works. In our, I mean, my other main theory was just like, if it was somebody else, then law enforcement would have done something by now. But anyways. Well, let me ask you a question, Mandy. Yes. Do you think Dick is doing what he needs to do

to educate a potential jury pool in Colleton County to get at least one or two jurors to say he's not guilty. Because that's what Dick's doing, right? Dick isn't doing this for the world. He's doing this for those jurors in Colleton County who are going to sit on that jury. Which is ironic because he was the one pushing for, we don't want to taint the jury pool before.

Yeah, where did it go from a gag order to having a press conference? And then a complete show of a hearing. That was a performance. It wasn't a court hearing. It was just a performance. Liz, do you think the evidence is going to be overwhelming for guilt? Yes, I do. Is it going to be irrefutable and it's going to be scientific evidence

that another expert isn't going to be able to criticize by saying, well, the chain of custody got interrupted. The evidence is tainted or contaminated. I think with Maggie's phone, you're talking about, they didn't actually need the phone for evidence because they could have, you know, gotten a warrant for that through her carrier. So I don't think that that's, you know, necessarily going to be a big deal. The, yeah, I mean, I think that's, if you're talking about chain of custody, that would be the one, right?

Okay. Let's take a vote right now. Guilty or not guilty? Oh, we can't. Oh, my gosh. We can't do that. We can't do that. However, because people are going to give us shit.

Yeah, for sure. They'll be fine with your choice. But also, we haven't seen that. It's a totality of evidence, right? So no matter what... And we have to wait for it. It's good. It's a totality of evidence is what law enforcement calls it.

But, you know, what Dick's going to call it, obviously, is already that it is a circumstantial evidence case. So it all depends on the way you're looking at it. So from my perspective is somebody who's, you know, covered law enforcement. for so long. The totality of evidence is strong in this case, from what I understand. So that's important. I think the combination of the types of evidence is going to be, are going to be good. And I think the fact that they got independent review is going to weigh heavily as well. So like you said, the fact that he's been silent is telling. And certainly, you know, I can almost hear them saying, uh-oh.

Let me tell you my fear, and then we can close us down. My fear is that the public now has great mistrust in justice system and the government and law enforcement agencies. I think there could be a number of jurors in Colleton County who possibly question authority and question law enforcement and walk in with a bias now against the government. And that's a shame. But I do think there's a bias. I've been a lawyer for almost 35. years. I'm here because I've made my life about seeking justice for those that don't get justice or being mistreated or don't have the ability to speak up for themselves. But I'm actually here on this podcast because I think in combination, Mandy Liz and I have a lot to say. We have a lot to say about

justice in our state, justice in our country. But there's a lot of people out there that want to know about the legal system. They want to learn about it. They know that at different times of their life, they're going to be participants. And it's our goal to educate people when they have to get lawyers or they're involved in the legal system, that they can be participants. I have learned with seeing the Satterfield boys and seeing the Plyla girls and seeing all the other victims of Alex, that they were moved around the board like that they were chess pieces. We want to educate people who need lawyers and hire them that they can't be manipulated, that they're going to be able to to ask the right questions. They're going to say, send me the document. Show me what the settlement was.

Show me proof that you charged my file $10,000 for an expert. Why did you need the plane trip to Omaha? Why is that getting charged to me if there was one day a deposition? Why did you charge me for four days? Just to have a more informed client, no different than when you're buying a house that you become an informed home purchaser. So that's my goal. Stay tuned, folks. The Murdoch Murder's podcast is created by me, Mandy Matney, and my fiancé, David Moses.

Our executive editor is Liz Farrell. Produced by Luna Shark Productions.