Murder In America - 205: COLORADO - The “Dark Knight Rises” Movie Theater Shooting (PT. 3)

Episode Date: June 6, 2025

In 2012, a violent crime rocked the community of Aurora, Colorado. A heavily armed mass killer had attacked a midnight showing of the newly released film, “The Dark Knight Rises”, and had slaughtered 12 people and injured 70 more in cold blood. But when the smoke cleared and investigators began to piece together what led up to the shooting, they couldn’t believe what they were discovering. - Listen to our new show, "THE CONSPIRACY FILES"!: -Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/5IY9nWD2MYDzlSYP48nRPl -Apple Podcasts - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-conspiracy-files/id1752719844 -Amazon/Audible - https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/ab1ade99-740c-46ae-8028-b2cf41eabf58/the-conspiracy-files -Pandora - https://www.pandora.com/podcast/the-conspiracy-files/PC:1001089101 -iHeart - https://iheart.com/podcast/186907423/ -PocketCast - https://pca.st/dpdyrcca -CastBox - https://castbox.fm/channel/id6193084?country=us - Stay Connected: Join the Murder in America fam in our free Facebook Community for a behind-the-scenes look, more insights and current events in the true crime world: https://www.facebook.com/groups/4365229996855701 If you want even more Murder in America bonus content, including ad-free episodes, come join us on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/murderinamerica Instagram: http://instagram.com/murderinamerica/ Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/people/Murder-in-America-Podcast/100086268848682/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/MurderInAmerica TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@theparanormalfiles and https://www.tiktok.com/@courtneybrowen Feeling spooky? Follow Colin as he travels state to state (and even country to country!) investigating claims of extreme paranormal activity and visiting famous haunted locations on The Paranormal Files Official Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/TheParanormalFilesOfficialChannel - (c) BLOOD IN THE SINK PRODUCTIONS 2025 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode is sponsored by Better Help. Life is a journey. I know this. I think we all know this. Some days feel good and other days feel absolutely overwhelming. Whatever's keeping you up at night, it's easy sometimes to feel like you have to figure it all out on your own. But the truth is, nobody has all the answers.

And no journey should be taken alone. However, having someone with you to listen, to understand, and to support you, can make all the difference. I know that I'm a huge therapy advocate. I've advocated for therapy for years. And if you want to give therapy a try, better. BetterHelp is a great place to start. Better Help therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the U.S. BetterHelp also does the initial matching work for you so you

can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences, and their 12-plus years of experience and industry-leading match fulfillment rate means they typically get it right the first time. And something that I love is if you aren't happy with your therapist match, you can switch to a different therapist at any time from their tailored recommendations. I've personally used BetterHelp in the past, and I think that if you're on the edge, if you're thinking, maybe it's time to start therapy, I say just go ahead and do it. There's literally no downside, because you don't have to be on this journey alone. Find support and have someone with you in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off at BetterHelp.com slash MIA. That's

betterhelp.com slash MIA. I really love to get dressed up every once in a while when I'm going out with my girlfriends or on a date night with Colin. But lately I've been trying to be more intentional with my everyday wear. And I've found that the best options that work for me are good quality, effortless pieces that will last me forever and they still look cute, which is why Quince has always been my go-to. The thing I love about Quince is that all of their fabrics feel elevated. Their clothing always fits me perfectly, and I can just throw on anything from theirs and it looks so put together. but it's so effortless. Now that the spring season is upon us, Quince makes it so easy to refresh your wardrobe with spring pieces that feel as good as they look. I love that they always use

premium materials like 100% European linen, organic cotton, and ultra-soft denim. And everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They also work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen, so you're paying for quality and craftsmanship, not the brand markup. I recently have been on the hunt for a good denim skirt, and so I went to Quince and I ordered their stretch denim miniskirt, and I am absolutely obsessed with it. It is so cute, I've already worn it several times, I have made a ton of different outfits with it, and I could not believe the price of it. I actually had to go back and double check it, because it is such good quality. I could not believe how affordable it was. But that's been my experience with everything I've gotten from Quince. They are so

affordable and their items are amazing. And I know you will love them too. So refresh your every day with luxury that you'll actually use. Head to quince.com slash America for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com slash America for free shipping and 365-day returns. Quins.com slash America. Following podcast is not suitable for all audiences. We go into great detail with every case that we cover and do our best to bring viewers even deeper into the stories by utilizing disturbing audio and sound effects.

Trigger warnings from the stories we cover may include violence, rape, murder, and offenses against children. This podcast is not for everyone. You have been warned. In the last two episodes, we have talked about the Dark Night Rises mass shooting. In part one, we talked about the gunman, James Holmes. And in part two, we walked you through everything that happened on that horrible day in Aurora, Colorado. July 20, 2012.

The day that a gunman walked into a theater of 400 innocent people and began shooting into the crowd. Within minutes, he injured over 70 people, and he moved. murdered 12. It was a day that Americans will never forget, and the effects of that tragedy are still felt today. But in today's episode, we are going to wrap up this story and tell you everything that happened after the shooting, including the fate of the gunmen and where the survivors are today. So this is the Dark Night Rise's mass shooting part three. I'm Courtney Brownen. And I'm Colin Brown. And you're listening to Murder in America. To start our story, we're going to go back to the night of July 20th, 2012.

Now, we aren't going to give you the full rundown of what happened in the theater that night because we already did that in the last episode, but the gunman, James Holmes, would later speak to a psychiatrist about what he experienced that night. Now, we talked a lot in part one, about James' inability to really open up to professionals. And you're about to see a perfect example of that. He answers questions with very few words.

never really revealing much. But after walking out of the theater's exit and getting dressed in all of his tactical gear, he placed a call to the mental health hotline. In this audio we are about to play, he talks with the psychiatrist about his thought process here, why he wanted to call them. In case I wanted to stop the process.

I didn't hear anything for nine seconds, and then it hung up. What do you think would have happened if somebody had answered? I don't know I might have talked to him What might you have said? Told them the situation So you might have told them where you were

And what was going on? Yeah What do you think might have happened Yeah They would have tried to convince me not to Do you think they would have been successful? No, I think it would have been Overruled again

James admitted that even if they would have answered And tried to convince him Not to shoot up the theater He likely would have still gone through with it But James said that from here, he got out of his car and made his way towards Theater 9's exit door. And he recalled, thinking, this. Just that it was really going to happen. From here, James talks about his experience inside the theater that night, after throwing the tear gas into the crowd.

Then I raised the shotgun and saw that people were getting up in the back left corner. So I, like, shot up that direction. and then I don't remember any of the other shots of the shotgun. Any idea of why those people were getting up in the back left coin? Well, they could see me all decked out with my guns and stuff. So you shot in that direction. Do you know whether you hit anything? I heard a scream, but then I threw the gun down and switched to the AR-15.

and I don't remember where I shot those ones either except for like two people who tried to run away and I shot like three shots at them. There were many more people in the theater than the two who were trying to run away. Did they're running away prompt you to shoot them? It made me kind of focus on them or divert my attention to them

because I can't have everybody running away from the scene Tell me what you mean I can't have everybody running away Well because then I'm kind of out of control In the situation How about the sound What did all that sound like?

Well I'd had my music in To drown out Sounds And I guess I didn't hear much How high was the music turned up To its full volume Full volume

So what could you hear Besides the music? I don't remember hearing the gunshots. As you were carrying out the shootings, you were wearing gas masks the whole time? Yes. How well could you see out of the mask? Not well because there were lights behind the theater, which were actually brighter than in the theater. So I'd go from a brightly lit area to a darkly lit area.

Go ahead and have the gas mask with scratches in it. I was trying to remove the scratches, but they weren't coming out. Was it a used mask? No, it was a new mask, but there were still scratches on the visor. That you tried to remove to be able to see better? Yeah. Was the movie still playing when you were shooting? Yes.

I wasn't watching it, though. Had it feel to be really doing it? Then it was an autopilot. Exilaration? No, no of that. Caution or? No. sensitivity to what's around you?

Well, I was looking at what's around me. Are you aware of what was around you? Yeah, I could see people trying to leave and sitting down and under their siege. What do people feel when they're experiencing that? Terror, I would say. Can you expand on terror? Will they be very afraid?

and kind of unbelieving that that could be happening at the moment. What do people feel when someone near them gets shot? That there needs to be help coming. What do they feel when they get shot? Shock. Is there anything else about the experience inside the theater sticks in your mind that you remember vividly? Just one guy in the front row was smiling.

I thought it was kind of odd that he was smiling. At what point was he smiling? When did you see? This was when I was going to leave going towards the exit and just look back and saw that he was smiling. What do you make of that? I think it's probably a stress reaction that he did. James said that at some point during the shooting, his rifle jammed. So he stepped back outside to see if he could go to his car and fix it.

But around this time, the police and Aurora just got word of the shooting at the Century 16 Theater, and they are rushing to the scene. You go outside, you go through that door. Has anyone else gone through the door in front of you? Yes, there were the four people carrying the one wounded guy. They carried them pretty far away on the back exit. So James steps outside, waiting through the blood of the people he'd just shot. But just as he gets to his car, the police come around to the back of the theater.

Now, like we mentioned in the last episode, officers Jason Sweeney and Jason Oviat thought that he was a SWAT officer because of all the tactical gear he had on. But as they followed the trail of blood with their eyes, they realized that the gas mask he was holding wasn't state issued. James was calm, unhurried, unlike everyone else. And in that instant, the officers knew exactly who they were looking at, the gunman himself. I see a car parked along the road. that looks like a police car with their headlights on. So I kind of figured the police were already there. So I went back towards my car and opened the door.

And then I saw two more police, kind of towards the left. I take off my belt and put the handgun on the top of the car. And then the police officers come towards me, and I put my hands up and surrender. Did you put your hands up before they told you to or asked you to? Before, yeah. Then they tell me to show the hands. So I take my gloves off and show the hands. And then get down on the ground and then they handcuffed me on the back.

Did they handle you pretty roughly or not? Or how did that go? It didn't seem that rough. It seemed like they were just doing their job. The officer said that as they handcuffed him, searched him and dragged him to the back of the police vehicle, James had no reaction whatsoever. Officer Sweeney asked, is anyone else involved in the shooting? James responded, quote, just me.

So from there, they take him to the police station. Yeah, they drove me over. There was only one guy in the car. There were flashing lights all around. When it was over, when your shooting was over, how many people do you think, did you think you had hit? I think I hit maybe 20 people and maybe killed only three people. I'm sorry. I wasn't sure I'd actually killed anybody at that time until they said there were people deceased over the police radios.

On the way over to the station, Officer Aaron Blue said that James was fidgeting in the back seat, which made him nervous. He had already checked James for weapons, but just to be sure, he asked him, Do you have any more weapons on you? James says no. But what he says next is chilling. He told the officer that he had, quote, improvised explosive devices at his apartment. Officer Blue felt a ping of panic.

Was Aurora about to experience another mass casualty event that night? He asks him, are they set to go off? But calmly, James responded, quote, if you trip them. From there, while James is brought to the police, station, another set of officers make their way to 1690 Paris Street to begin evacuating the apartment. You see, in James' original plan, he had booby-trapped his apartment so that these explosives would ignite shortly before he started shooting at the theater. Once that explosion had happened, he believed that the Aurora Police Department would send all of their officers in that direction,

and once they were over there, he would begin the massacre at Century 16. Because of the delayed response, James believed he would be able to kill more people. But luckily, his plan didn't work. The explosives at his apartment never ignited. But that just meant that Aurora had a whole different problem on their hands. They didn't know how deadly these explosives were. And it would take them some time to even get inside of the apartment. So for now, they spent the next few hours evacuating the premises

so that no one else would get hurt. But back at the police station, James was brought into an interrogation room. And eventually, at around 2.45 a.m., investigators come in to talk to him. And his demeanor and responses are strange, to say the least. Jim, you okay? I mean, anything we should know about? Are you injured or anything other than some scrapes? Anything?

No. We're here to help, yeah. Yeah. We're just, we're going to make this as easy as possible as we can on you. Okay. And we have water coming here. So other than that, do you need anything? Oxygen.

Oxygen. His responses are off-putting. He's speaking as if he didn't just shoot up a room full of people. But interestingly, James actually brings up something he had noticed. He saw something about the children's victim services, and he wanted to ask them if any children were hurt in the shooting. Science said victim services unit and children something. Uh-huh. Yeah, what about that?

There wasn't any children hurt, what is it? There weren't any children hurt, was there? James didn't know this at the time, but he had brutally murdered a six-year-old little girl. He would later say that he specifically chose the midnight showing because he didn't think any children would be there. But he was mistaken. Did anybody come in to try to interrogate you before you went to bugging? Yeah, two detectives.

I said I wanted a lawyer after the Miranda rights. This may sound like a silly question, but it's really not. Why did you want to lie? To be protected. In what way protected? I'm incriminating myself. It sounds like you had, within the plan, two possible outs, dying, going to prison. Right. A slim chance of getting away that's now gone. Right. In what way did you need to be

protected from incriminating yourself if that was the path that was now there? Well, you're supposed to ask for a lawyer instead of letting them interrogate you. Now even though he had requested an attorney, he did agree to speak with the detectives about the explosives at his apartment. What was the benefit to telling them all about? Well, they originally said children would probably get hurt. And how did that change if it did, the view that you didn't want to talk? Oh, I didn't want children to get hurt, so I talked to them. Now after talking with them about the explosives, James had to wait around at the police station

for hours. He was later asked about his experience that night, and here is what he had to say. You get to the Aurora Police Department, and they do some end processing for you. What's that like? They take your fingerprints, take your photo. How did that feel to you? That's a new experience for it. Well, before that, they take you to the interrogation room, and they left me there for hours and hours. Really? Before they even fingerprinted you and did the photo?

Yeah. What was it like in the interrogation? It's a windowless room. It was like a camera in the corner. There was not much to do. Nothing to do really. They just left you there? Was there anybody outside the door or anybody in the room?

Yeah, they had a guard sit inside the room and at the door too. What'd you do while you were waiting? I was fidgety. In the footage from inside this room, you see James shirtless. He starts playing with the paper cup on the table. Then after a while, he removed staples from underneath the table, and he messes with the outlet on the wall. He's completely been over fiddling with things for like 15 minutes before the police come in and ask what he's doing. Hey, what are you doing?

Removing steeples. Okay. All right. Is that your shirt? It was. It was? How come me not wearing it? Because they cut it.

Oh. Okay. Do you cold or anything? No. Now soon enough, they bring in paper bags to tape over his hands. They do this to preserve any gunshot residue for evidence. And here is their exchange. I know it's kind of weird wearing these on your hands, but just bear it with me. Just leave my mother.

We'll get them off. We'll see if we can, okay? Trust me. Yeah. Yeah. Huh? Just because of those things? What things?

What's this for? Huh? What's this? We just want to make sure that your hands are protected. Yeah. Do you know what this is for? It's really, man. Huh?

What do you think it's for? Popcorn. For popcorn? Yeah. Could be used for popcorn. But now right now. Oh, I'm afraid. Yep.

James would later say this. I thought they looked like popcorn bags. It was like they were going to microwave my hands or something. At some point. While he's wearing these paper bags over his hands, James gets so bored he starts playing hand puppets with the bags. But soon after this, James was booked and taken to the Arapaho County Detention Center. He was later asked what he felt at this time, and here's what he said.

What's going to happen next, I'm going to think? Okay, what's going to happen next? Any other feelings come to mind? Just that feeling that it's finished. By that next morning, the town of Aurora, Colorado, along with the entire nation woke up to the devastating news that 12 people had been murdered and over 70 injured during the midnight showing of the dark night rises.

Here is some footage from the press conference held by police chief Dan Oates. Our suspect's name is James Egan Holmes. Middle name E-A-G-E-N, last name H-O-L-M-E-S, date of birth, 1213 of 87. He resides at 1690 Paris Street in Aurora, Apartment 10. I'll be discussing the situation at his apartment in a few minutes. His history with the Aurora Police Department is one traffic summons for speeding in October of 2011. We have no other criminal history on Mr. Holmes.

With regard to the investigation, I can tell you we know a little bit more about our subject. We know he recently left the University of Colorado Medical School Neuroscience Program on a voluntary, it was a voluntary separation. We know he hails originally from Riverside, California, and attended UC California Riverside Campus. Neighbors report to us that he lived alone and he kept to himself. We evacuated five apartment buildings, including the apartment building of the subject. Those evacuees have been staying at Central High School. again with the support of Aurora Public Schools. With regard to the Paris location,

it is a very vexing problem how to enter that apartment safely. I personally have never seen anything like what the pictures show us is in there. I'm a layman when it comes to bomb stuff. I see an awful lot of wires, trip wires,

jars full of ammunition, jars full of liquid, some things, things that look like mortar rounds. We have a lot of challenges to get in there safely. We decided this evening to postpone action on that until tomorrow sometime. All our folks were pretty well taxed and we needed a break. And we also, with the help of the federal government, we're bringing in some extra resources to consult on exactly how to deal with that problem. Police Chief Dan Oates would later say, make no mistake, this apartment was designed to kill

whoever entered it. Soon enough, using remote control robots, investigators were able to go into James's apartment to try and defuse the bombs. And what they saw inside was shocking. Inside, on the floor of his living room, he had 30 homemade grenades rigged to explode if his door was opened. He had soaked his carpet in gasoline and covered it in a zigzagging white powder, ammonium chloride. In addition to the gasoline-soaked carpet, he filled six two-liter bottles with gas and placed them in a semicircle, which would only add to the destruction of the explosion. Then there were jars of napalm around the apartment. There was a trip wire by the door that would ignite a chain reaction, setting the explosives alight and destroying not only the apartment

complex, but also the buildings around it. The bombs were so intricate that people living at the apartment complex couldn't return home for 11 days. But everyone was just so relieved that this part of the gunman's plan didn't work. Now before we get into the details of James's fate, we want to talk about the hours after the shooting. Hundreds of people from all over America were peacefully sleeping, having no idea that they were about to get a call or a knock on their door

that would change their lives forever. Here is Michaela Medics' sister Amanda and what she experienced that morning. So I listened to the voicemail and my dad said that Michaela had been shot and I left out of bed and I just kept doing this because I couldn't process anything.

So I was like very anxious and I just my mind was racing and I grabbed whatever I could in my closet. I think through flip-flops on and got in my car and I raced down to Gateway High School. I went the wrong way down the street and I'm just thinking, you know, like it's okay, it's okay. Like I'm going to get there. It will be fine. I just need to figure it out. So I got to Gateway High School and my parents were there and A ton of my sister's friends were there, and I just started asking questions, you know, like, what's going on? Who have you spoke to? We got a list of all the hospitals.

My mother had previously been calling these hospitals since one in the morning. So I recalled all of these hospitals, and we knew that there was a bunch of Jane Does or people that hadn't been identified yet. So I dropped my parents off, and I just went to everywhere. Children's Hospital University. I went to Swedish. I went to hospitals that they weren't admitting people to. I went to Presbyterian Denver Health. I thought maybe she'd, you know, like, been shocked and she couldn't, you know,

like she wouldn't be able to describe who she is. And so I just went everywhere and I kept getting called back to Gateway High School to be interviewed by the police and then be interviewed by victims' advocates. And then I'd go back to University. hospital because they would call me and tell me there's a new Jane Doe and I just kept repeating her name M-I-C-A-Y-L-A-M-E-D-E-K. Did you ultimately learn that your sister had been shot and killed? I went back to Gateway High School. I was called in by an officer and he showed me a photo

on his phone of my little sister's driver's license and asked me to identify the photo. And they wouldn't tell me anything. All I did was identify the photo. We went back to my parents' house, and there was over 150 people at my parents' house. Front yard, backyard, in the house, everywhere. Just my sister's friends, our family, our community, people in the church. Is that where you learned, were you at home, and that you learned what happened? We got a call, and two black cars came down there.

end of the street, we were in the backyard, just the family, just the immediate family. And I, all I remember is my knees buckling and slamming into the concrete floor. And that I have a hard time remembering what happened after that. Here's Rebecca Wingo's ex-husband, Robert, talking about having to tell his two young daughters that their mother had died. where I let them know that mom had died that day, not in such a succinct fashion, but the reaction was that my oldest daughter,

who was, I think, nine at the time, absolutely registered and fell apart. The news hit her very hard. My youngest daughter did not quite understand what was really happening and which in itself had its own gravity. Here is Teresa Hoover and how she found out her 18-year-old son, AJ, had been shot and killed. I was sleeping and my dog started barking. So I went and checked to see what she was barking at and his friend was. at the door

and told me to turn on the TV so I turned it on and couldn't find the channel changer and it was chaos and I was in my underwear in front of a child that wasn't mine and I got some sweats on and

we went I grabbed a picture off the wall his graduation picture and then she drove me to Gateway high school I didn't find out until about 16 and a half, 18 hours. I got there about to 1.30 or 2 in the morning.

So I waited at the school with my family. They had a event. I lost Moa and some teachers and AJA's friends helped put it together where they each did their part, put pictures together and had speeches, things like that. It was almost like a pep rally for AJ. Here's John Marmere's mother, Kathleen.

That day, we had a few extra hours. I mean, we're from northeast Illinois, so we had a few extra hours of not knowing anything terrible was wrong. I think it was Beth that put it together that John was at the theater. And then she called Nora, and Nora told me, and it was like 7 o'clock that morning. And so what do you do? The first thing you do is you're first thing you do is you're

flip on, you know, CNN or one of those, and there's pictures everywhere, and it's like, oh, gosh, so we called the police, we called the coroner, we called everybody we could think, we called the military base. Nobody could tell us anything. So they suggested we call hospitals, so we called multiples of us, called every hospital in the area. I asked for supervisor. I used to work in hospitals, so I would, you know, the supervisor, explain my story. Please, please, if you have anybody there, you haven't identified, tell me. No, no, they assured me that they had identified everybody, so they did not have anybody. So the morning drags on, it gets to be partway through the afternoon, and Scott says, you know, we should start letting somebody else know. So

made some of the hardest phone calls, almost the hardest phone calls. the worst ones were after we found out for sure and say, we don't know what happened. All we know is John was at the theater, and now he's missing. And, you know, they mentioned the phone calls, the ringing phones in that theater. John was pretty good about leaving his unvibrate, but it went off a bunch of times between us calling his phone and texting and saying, you know, where are you? Call us.

The Navy didn't, they wouldn't tell me if he was at, work or not if he's supposed to work at 5.30 that morning. Noel finally got somebody to tell him that no, he wasn't there. Eventually, one of John's family members flew to Denver, and once there, he finally called home to tell his family the horrible news. He called us about 8.15 our time to tell us that John was dead. Here is Jonathan Blunk's family member, Shantel. So I was on the porch, and at the time my parents had some house.

they were doing some stuff to the house. Two vehicles pulled up in normal cars, and regular looking people came out, like just jeans and a button-up shirt. I automatically assumed that they were contractors or something for the house, and they'd walked up, and I was about to say hi, and they asked for me.

They said, is Chantal Blancere? And my heart sunk, and I was like, I remember stepping back, like, wait what you know like and I'm looking at my watch to see what time it is and I'm just like and then everything started fogging out and they were telling me that he was one of the deceased they had a counselor or somebody there that I could talk to if I needed and they were just talking to me and I could hear them but I'm not making the connection and I'm just like confused it felt like a dream and you're just like wake up wake up wake up and I'm distracted because they look so normal

you, I don't know what you should expect, but I expected something else, I suppose. And I was just distracted and I can hear them and I was straight to denial. And I said, no, I don't need to speak anybody. And I remember walking past my kids and I just looked at them and I had to go straight to my room and I shut the door and I'm still trying to wake up or make the connection of what is happening and what has happened. And did they say, and I'm trying to remember, did they say if someone's going to I come to my house and tell me he's fine or he passed. Like, I couldn't remember the conversation. So I just went straight into anger and started punching holes in my closet.

And my mom is screaming. And I hear a family, like, banging on the door. And I just, I just couldn't stop. Like, I was not ready for tears. I was all denial. Hey, everybody. Courtney and I have a favor to ask of you. If you love murder in America, you love our show.

please leave us a five-star review wherever you listen to your podcasts, whether that's Apple Podcasts, Spotify. If you love our show and you want to help us grow, definitely consider leaving us a five-star review. Also, it helps the show so much when people share out links to our program. So if you're listening and you're loving what we're doing here, share us on your Instagram story, shout us out on X, post one of our shows on your Facebook, and let the world, your friends, your family know that you're listening to Murder in America. It seriously helps us so much. It helps us grow the show. We couldn't do this without all of you listening at home.

Seriously, thank y'all. But let's get back to the story. Here's Sandy Phillips and the last conversation she had with her daughter, Jessica Gawie. Felt really like I had slept all night for some reason and got up and went out into the living room and thought, well, I'll just text to see if they're still up. And they were. and she told me that they were at the movies. And I said, I'll let you go. We'll talk in the morning.

And she said, Mom, go back to bed, get some sleep. I can't wait to see you next week. I need my mama. And I responded, I need my baby girl. And that was the last time we said anything to each other. I got a phone call about 25 minutes later from Brent inside the theater. And I remember looking down. at it and thinking, it's odd that Prince calling me. Why isn't Jesse? But I took the call and I said,

hey, baby, what's up? And I could hear the screaming in the background going on. Was he able to tell you what had happened? I said, what's going on? And he said, there's been a shooting. And I said, are you okay? And he said, I think I've been shot twice. And as he's telling me this, I'm realizing that Jesse isn't on the phone. And I have. asking where she was. I said, where's Jesse? He said, I tried. And I said, Brent, tell me she's okay.

And he said, I tried. And I said, oh God, Brent, please tell me she's not dead. And I started screaming. And my husband ran out of the bedroom. And this guttural sound was coming out of me. And he caught me as I was sliding down to the floor. Next is Sierra Cowden, the daughter of Gordon Cowden, who was right by his side when he passed away. When the shooting started, he started to get up, he started to move forward, but then he hesitated and turned to make sure that we were coming to.

And like before that, during the commercials, I remember that he, like, insisted on me taking the extra armrest that was in between us. Because he was the left to me, and like, he had his arm up, and without thinking about it, I kind of put my arm up and thumped him. And I was like, oh, but then he, like, put my elbow up because he wanted me to have the armrest. And, like, also during the commercials, there was one Superman commercial. Sorry. There was a Superman commercial, and it was, like, a theater of superhero fans, so everyone started cheering. And we, like, looked at each other in the dark and kind of just laughed just at how, like, excited everyone was. They took us to Gateway High School.

They like brought around some RTDs and they took us to Gateway. Did you know for certain when you were at Gateway High School what had happened to your father? We weren't certain, but like in the theater when I touched him, like I thought immediately that he was dead. Here's Jerry Jackson and the last conversation she had with her son, Matt McQuinn. So he was real excited about it and he said, And Mom, I hear Nick coming home. So we're going to go get dinner before the movie. So I'm going to let you go.

And I said, well, okay. I said, be careful. He said, oh, Mom, nothing's going to happen. And he said, I love you, Mom. Four o'clock. We were woken up about 4.20 in the morning by our son, Stephen. and he said, there's a sheriff at the door. My husband and I got up and answered the door,

and he said, do you know Matt McQuinn? And I said, yes. And he said, there's been an incident with the kids. You need to call Samantha's mom. And so we did. And she said, Jerry, she said, The kids went to a movie and somebody came in and started firing shots. Samantha is at the hospital.

She was shot in the knee. She's waiting for surgery, but we don't know where Matt is. They said that they couldn't tell her, tell Samantha anything about Matt because of the hip belongs. We were trying to call Samantha and we just couldn't get any kind of news. It was probably about, we got out to Denver, probably about 1.30 Denver time. So you just hopped on a plane? Yes. Myself and Sam's mom, dad and stepmom all ended up on the same.

plane and we got you know to the rental car and we were on our way I told them let's go so you can be with Samantha and they said no we're going to find Matt first and my brother called while we were on the highway and he said Jerry this doesn't look good he said I want a friend of mine to come be with you and that was the first that I knew that there were 10 bodies still in the theater. Were you asked to actually go and identify your son at the coroner's office? Yes. We had to, we got a call that said that we needed to come down and identify him.

Did you do that? I did. I went in. The gentleman told me that Matt would be behind a glass window and that we would be in a little room. room. And so we went in and my brother's friend and Samantha's stepmom went with me. And I went in and he was there. And it was my son. And I had asked if he suffered and they said that he was shot in the neck. And it was probably within seconds. Did you say anything to him?

I told him that I loved him, that I was proud of because he saved Samantha's life. Here's Karen Tevis and how she found out her son, Alex, was murdered. Being and Tom was sleeping, and he had to get up early for a conference call to the East Coast. So he got up and I heard him in the kitchen with the phone and something sounded really off. So I got out of bed and walked out, and he had the phone to his ear, but his face was completely white. All the blood had drained out of his face. And I knew then something was terribly, terribly wrong.

What kind of call was it? Amanda was on the other end of the phone. Had she been with him at the theater? She was. What'd she tell you? She said there was a shooting. It was a shooting, and I couldn't, wake Alex up. I couldn't wake him up. I tried and I tried and I tried to take him with me,

but I was pulled out of the theater. And we were like, well, where is he? Where is he? And she says, I don't know. And Tom said, do you have any blood on you? Because we were trying to figure out if Alex was injured. And she says, yeah, lots. I remember panicking, really. bad and getting on my phone to quickly call the police and from there getting no information and calling area hospitals and my sister happened to be on a business trip with her husband here and called her she just happened to be in Denver from New Jersey and she's a nurse so she got in her car and started visiting hospitals when was it that you became certain that your firstborn son had

been murdered. It was hours and hours and hours. Torturous hours. Phone calls and we kind of figured something was really bad because Alex would have dragged himself out of that theater. He would have gotten out. And the only way we knew he would not have made it out is if he was killed and it took 15 hours before we found out that he was indeed murdered. Following the shooting, there were countless stories just like the ones you just heard, where people woke up to their entire world crumbling around them. After learning that their loved one was murdered in a senseless act of violence. Soon enough, James Holmes had his first court appearance.

And for the first time, the world got to see the face of the monster who murdered 12 people in cold blood. In court, he sat by his public defender, with his bright orange hair looking scared and nervous. The judge obviously denied him bail, but during this appearance, some of the victim's family members showed up to court and stared him down. At the time, he was the most hated man in America. Now, the morning after the shooting over in San Diego, California, James' family had no idea what he had done, but soon enough, they were about to find out. and I were asleep in San Diego. We received a phone call from somebody in the media who had said there was a shooting.

And my first thought, of course, was that Jim had been shot. I had never, didn't occur to me that he would be the shooter. Well, once we found out, very shortly thereafter, the media arrived in front of our house, along with the police and the FBI. and then basically I just sent an email to work saying I had a family emergency and then I booked a flight to Denver. Both Bob and Arlene Holmes said that they never in a million years ever expected their son to commit a mass shooting.

Arlene would later say, quote, he was the most responsible person I know. I knew my own son. He managed his own finances. He went to school every day. He did all of his chores without being told. he never harmed anyone ever until July 20th, 2012." She would also say the following.

Were you in any way ever concerned that he would act violently? Never. I was totally shocked that he used a gun. We never had guns in the house. We never were hunters or target shooters. When I heard, I thought, how does he eat? even know how to use a gun. Now, Bob and Arlene did know

that James had been having some problems recently. Like we mentioned in part one, after he had dropped out of school, they received a call from James' psychiatrist, Dr. Lynn Fenton. She told them that James had dropped out and that he had been seeing her for his anxiety.

But according to Bob and Arlene, Dr. Fenton never mentioned anything about how he had been having homicidal thoughts. Arlene would later say this. Did she ever tell you she had concerns because he had expressed homicidal ideation? No, never. Do you wish she had?

Of course I do. I, of course. We wouldn't be sitting here if she had told me that. Would you have been out here the next day? I would have been crawling on all fours to get to him. He's never said that he wanted to kill people. She didn't, she didn't, she didn't, she didn't tell me. She didn't tell me.

Good hair days do more than we give them credit for. When your hair feels healthy, you show up differently. You feel more confident, more relaxed, and you're not constantly checking the mirror. Nutraful supports hair health from within and delivers results over time. So your hair becomes something you enjoy, not something you stress about. Nutraful is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand, and it's the number one hair growth supplement. brand personally used by dermatologists.

And Nutraful's hair growth supplements are peer-reviewed, NSF certified for sport, and clinically tested. It's obviously not a one-size-fits-all approach, and Nutraful offers multiple formulas for men and women, tailored to different life stages like postpartum or menopause, and lifestyle factors, such as a plant-based diet, so you get support for your hair that's actually right for you. And adding NutriFle to your daily routine is easy. You can order online with no prescription needed, with automated delivery.

and free shipping to keep you on track. Plus, with a Nutraful subscription, you can save up to 20% and get added perks like a free Headspace membership to support your hair health journey. I know Courtney and I both have been using Nutraful shampoo and conditioner for years now, and we've been using their supplements for months.

We figured at one point why not try their supplements because we love their shampoo and conditioner so much and, yeah, it's one of those never looking back situations. But you can let your hair become one less thing taking up space in your head and see thicker, stronger, faster, hair with less shedding in just three to six months with Nutraful. For a limited time, Nutraful is offering our listeners $10 off your first month's

subscription and free shipping when you visit Nutraful.com and enter promo code M-I-A. That's Nutraful.com spelled N-U-T-R-A-F-O-L dot com promo code M-I-A. Growing up, my mom was always the best at handling sticky, stressful situations. I mean, we have so many crazy families. memories, so many things that stick out to me, so many trips that we took and just funny moments. I mean, I remember specifically one just crazy time when we had jet skis and we took them out. We had rented them for the day and we took them out on this lake and somehow something got on the engine of the jet ski. Mine stalled. My dad stalled and my mom and sister had to come

rescue us because we floated to shore on the other side of the lake. We've got some hilarious pictures from that day. But it's just one of those memories that I don't want to let die. And aura frames can help keep those moments alive. So basically, an aura frame is like a virtual frame that can display photos and videos from anywhere. You can upload to the frame, you can share in new photos, you can constantly change the library. And it's really a perfect gift for a family member because you can personalize it at any time. And the aura frame is the perfect Mother's Day gift to capture the chaos that you might have put your own mom through and the memories that came with it.

With free unlimited storage, you can add as many photos. and videos to your aura frame as you want. And something that I love is that you can actually preload the aura frame with photos before it ships. And you can keep adding to it from anywhere at any time. Each aura frame also comes packaged in a premium gift box with no price tag. So it's great if you're giving it as a gift. And actually, ORAFrames run off a top rated app. In fact, the app reached number one on the app store on Christmas Day, 2025.

So make Mother's Day special with ORA frames. named number one by wirecutter, you can save on the gifts mom's love by visiting oraframes.com. For a limited time, listeners can get $25 off their best-selling Carver Matt Frame with code MIA. That's A-U-R-Aframes.com promo code M-I-A. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout, terms, and conditions apply. Exema is unpredictable,

but you can flare less with ebbglis, a once-monthly treatment for moderate-tisaphaer, Exema. After an initial four-month-month-longer-dosing phase, about four and ten people taking Ebbglis achieved itch relief and clear or almost clear skin at 16 weeks, and most of those people maintain skin that's still more clear at one year with monthly dosing. Ebglis, Librikizumab, LBKZ. A 250 milligram per 2-millimeter injection is a prescription medicine used to treat adults in children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe eczema, also called atopic dermatitis that is not

well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals or who cannot use topical therapies. Ebglis can be used with or without topical corticosteroids. Don't use if you're allergic to Epglis. Allergic reactions can occur that can be severe. Eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems. You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with Ebbglis. Before starting Ebbglis, tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. Ask your doctor about ebbglis and visit ebglis.com or call 1800 LilyRx or 1,800 545-9779. Now, speaking of Dr. Fenton, she will go on to play a pretty big part in this story because If you remember, she knew that James had been having thoughts of killing people.

During their sessions together, he told her that he had those homicidal thoughts about three to four times a day. He also said that the thoughts were only getting worse. Now back in June when James dropped out of school, Dr. Fenton did notify the school's crisis team, but according to her, she couldn't place him on a psychiatric hold because he didn't meet the criteria for it, specifically because he didn't have a physical. a particular target of who he wanted to kill. So after notifying the crisis team, nothing was done.

Dr. Fenton would later say that on the morning of July 20th, 2012, she was at home asleep when she woke up to her phone ringing. It was Dr. Feinstein, the one who had sat in on her last two sessions with James. Upon answering the phone, he told her, quote, Are you seeing this? It's our guy, Len. He did it. He really did it. She really did it. Jesus, I can't believe it." End quote. Dr. Fenton said she immediately ran to her computer, and there it was. James Holmes killed 12 people and injured 70 in a theater in Aurora, Colorado.

Fenton said that she felt sick to her stomach, saying, quote, This is every psychiatrist's nightmare. End quote. Now, like we mentioned, hours before the shooting, James had actually sent Dr. Fenton that package. In it were those burned dollar bills and his notebook filled with his plans for the massacre. Now, she never actually got the package. The police would eventually retrieve it from the college's mail room, and from there they were able to get a better look into James's mind.

But as you can imagine, this story took the media by storm. Initially, the media played up James as the real-life Joker, who had allegedly, according to them, looked to the Batman villain as inspiration. But in reality, James had little, if any, interest in the Joker or the Batman franchise at all. He did have a Batman mask in his room, but it had been used as a last-minute Halloween costume at one point in his life, snatched up on the night of Halloween from a local store. His dyed orange hair was another source of media frenzy, with everyone claiming he dyed it to emulate the killer clown. In reality, James repeatedly disclosed that he only dyed his hair because he wanted to differentiate the James who shot.

up the theater from the James he had been at every other point in his life. He said he thought it looked cool, which is not something that the real James Holmes ever was. But over the course of the next few months, the town of Aurora continued to hurt. Many of the survivors were still in the hospital recovering from their injuries. Some had extensive brain damage. Paralysis, impaired speech. Some people lost limbs, one person lost an eye. There were countless surgeries ahead for these victims and years of health problems, both physical and mental. And everyone was angry, especially when they learned that this could have been prevented. When word got out that James Holmes had been seeing a psychiatrist for his homicidal thoughts,

everyone had the same question, why wasn't anything done? Dr. Fenton said that in the weeks after the shooting, she feared for her life. People would call her, screaming on the phone, that she was a murderer. She even had to wear a bulletproof vest when she left her home because she feared someone would try to kill her. Now during James's time in prison, he acted completely normal at first. Sure, he was weird and antisocial, but he didn't appear to be insane. Aside from speaking with his lawyers during his visits, he spent the majority of his time sleeping, reading, and eating. He also often made requests. He asked for books. He complained about the prison's food,

and he asked for things like contact lens cleaning fluid. Again, according to everyone, he was completely normal. But soon enough, he would be evaluated by a psychiatrist named Dr. Woodcock. As we know, shortly before the shooting, James had been telling Dr. Fenton that he kept having thoughts of killing people. Then in his journals, he wrote about how he had been having these thoughts since he was a child. So they wanted to evaluate him to see if James was clinically insane. Now, since his incarceration, he had not been on any medication.

So if he was insane, those symptoms should still be there. During his meeting with Dr. Woodcock, he described James as, quote, disconnected and disjointed, but could not be described as acutely psychotic, end quote. However, after a couple months in prison, James' behavior would drastically change. On November 11, 2012, at around 4.30 a.m., footage from inside his cell showed James standing up on his bed. He then allowed his body to fall backwards onto the concrete. As a result, he was put into a padded room, given a suicide gown, and he was monitored 24-7. But what happened inside that cell is, well, disturbing to say the least. James would

later say this. I thought other people were reading my thoughts, so I tried to, like, hide them. So I would say a bunch of colors like red, blue, green, red, and then, like, pointing my cell and stuff in random locations to get them to stop listening to my thoughts, to hide them. Six hours after he was put in the protective unit, James took all of his clothes off and just stared at the wall. When staff spoke with him, he was clearly confused. He asked repeatedly if he was real,

and he begged the staff to touch his hand to prove that he was actually alive. Of course, this was against safety regulations. so the staff had no choice but to deny his request. But from there, things would only get worse. James began running head first into the wall. He continued allowing himself to fall backwards, smashing his head. He started denying food and water, only eating when he could take lunch meat, stuff it between two paper cups, and eat it like a sandwich.

He started licking the walls of his cell, defecating on the floor, and then smearing that feces all over the walls. He would flip a paper cup onto his penis. And for 36 hours, he refused to drink anything. At certain points during this time, he would just freeze in a catatonic pose, staring blankly and moving his lips as if he was speaking, but no words were coming out. James smashed his head against the wall several times,

and when staff arrived to intervene, he screamed at them saying they were shadowed. quickly he was sedated for his own safety and the safety of the staff then from there he was transported to a psychiatric hospital for additional treatment once at the hospital psychiatrist dr Rachel Davis believed that his catatonic posturing suggested he had a schizophrenia-like disorder but to this day his exact diagnosis is still debated but he was given an antipsychotic medication and over the next five days he began to improve in the book

a dark night in Aurora, Dr. Reed explains what happened in those days, saying, quote, He spoke of hearing voices, being suspicious of the jail food, and ramming his head into the wall to get the bad thoughts out, thoughts that he was hungry and thirsty. While he was still delirious, he said he was in jail because I pulled away from the people I knew. I drank their blood. I took the blood that wasn't mine to take. I was selfish. End quote.

Now, in May of 2013, James officially pleaded not guilty. by reason of insanity, and the public was not happy about it, especially the victim's families. We want to call them crazy because we want to make that feel better in our society. But we have to accept the fact that there's evil people in our society that enjoy killing, that doesn't make them crazy. People will disturb by it. And if you're guilty and you murder 12 people and one baby, what do you do as a society? Do we keep letting things like this happen with no puns?

But before James' trial came around, he would have to be evaluated by court-appointed psychiatrists to determine whether or not he was insane. Now, keep in mind, James Holmes definitely struggled with mental health issues. He definitely had intrusive thoughts about killing people. There's no denying that. But that doesn't necessarily mean he was insane. Something else to note is that he was showing signs of schizophrenia while he was incarcerated, like throwing himself off the bed, refusing to eat or drink, talking to himself.

But that was after his arrest. So even if James was insane while incarcerated, his defense would have to prove that he was insane at the time of the crime. So in 2014, he would officially sit down with the court-appointed psychiatrist, Dr. William Reed. We have played some of their interview throughout this episode, but it's important to note that Dr. Reed was not hired by the prosecution or the defense. Not that that should ever matter,

but because the judge appointed him, Dr. Reed would be completely impartial during his evaluation. Now, I went through about 22 hours of footage. And again, I already played some parts earlier in this episode, but here are a few more clips from their interviews that I found interesting.

What brings tears to your eyes sometimes? Uh, just regrets. Regrets. Can you tell me a little more? Usually it's before I go to sleep. Regrets about? About the shooting. James told Dr. Reed that planning the attack was really helping him get out of his depression.

So Dr. Reed said, well, if planning was helping, then why did you carry it out? And James said this. Well, the shootings were supposed to increase my self-birth. So that would get me out of the depression in the end. The shootings were supposed to increase myself for. Can you tell me a little bit about that? I think it was in a text message I sent to GARGI about human capital. Now you can kind of place a value on a life.

And if you take lives away, that kind of adds to your own value. Anything they would have done or... like pursued, gets canceled out and given to me, not based on logic, it just is the way it is. James said that even sitting there years later, he still agreed with that idea, that taking lives added to his own self-worth. Dr. Reed then asked him how he wanted to be remembered. James said this. As a good person. What else? Um, for my achievements. Achievements. Achievements like? I like a successful undergrad graduate degree, good in high school, back in the

as you moved toward the mission and the mission becomes a bigger and bigger part of your life over a month or weeks of you. Do you see any difference in the way you might want to be remembered or the way you're going to end up being remembered? Yeah, it would be remembered in a poor life. as mentally ill or different from the norm

How else? Being successful with the mission At the time just after the shooting you thought maybe you had hit 20 people

and killed three you weren't sure Right Would that have been a success? Three or more in my view would have been a success 12

successful We're on the scale of little success to really big success. Moderate. How about the 50-some-odd-people who are injured? Collateral damage. Does that come under the success column or not? It doesn't play a factor. Does it detract from the success?

No. Is there any level of collateral damage that would detract from the success of 12%? killed. Oh no. A thousand wounded. I'd only count the kills. The collateral damage of damaged families, things that we talked about the last couple of days. Right.

Losing a parent, things like that. Never came under consideration. How about now? Is it count against the kills? No. A slightly different question. Does it matter? Does what matter? All the collateral damage.

Yes How does it matter Well people were Mamed and wounded and injured Yeah we know that part How does it matter to you? To you Well it's not good

In what one In that they had to be injured For me to kill the other people Yeah we know that they were injured for you to kill the other people I'm asking you how it matters to you if it does. You said it matters. It doesn't matter in terms of detracting from the kills.

Right. But you say it matters in some other way. Or ways. Right. Because if I put my shoes into their situation, I wouldn't want that happened to me. If you could have killed 12 people without

the injuries and the family damage and things like that. Then if I had that choice versus another choice, with the wound beat I would choose the one with less wounded. You would have chosen the one with less collateral damage? Yes.

Dr. Reed also asked what effect the shooting had on the community. Here's what James said. I think it made the community more tightly nipped. Over the course of his 22-hour evaluation, Dr. Reed would write about his takeaways in his book,

A Dark Night in Aurora, saying, quote, He had described strongly but somewhat vaguely that committing homicide would somehow stop what he had called depression and keep him from committing suicide. He expressed this odd logic in different ways at different times and to different interviewers and investigators, but that part of his motivation is quite clear. Elivating his perceived depression was one of two main drivers of his mission. The other is belief that he could somehow acquire other people's

human capital by killing them. Holmes didn't consider or care much about the fact that killing others would be trading their lives for his own comfort. As we talked two years later, he was able to see the selfishness of the concept, but not to feel its enormous self-centeredness. He knew that killing others for his gain was against the law, but he told me matter-of-factly. It was necessary to do what was in my best interest. Holmes told me several times that he felt obligated to carry out the shootings, that there was no other alternative. The only one he could think of was psychotherapy, adding, but it didn't work. While looking through all of Dr. Reed's interviews with James, it's hard to deny that there is something

deeply wrong and disconnected with James. At some point, Dr. Reed asks him what it felt like to pull the trigger. James responded, I don't know, I was wearing gloves. Throughout the dozens of hours, he seems incapable of responding to questions about emotions. And it truly seems as though he doesn't understand them. Like his connection to emotions are completely severed. He answers questions very matter of fact, never truly opening up, which is what therapists have said about him

since he was a small child. Now ultimately, Dr. Reed diagnosed James with schizotypal personality disorder. In his words from his book, A Dark Night and Aurora, quote, "'Skytotypal personality is characterized by a chronic persuasive pattern of social and interpersonal deficits, marked by acute discomfort with and reduced capacity for close relationships,

and by distortions of thinking and perception." But despite his diagnosis and clear psychosis following the mass shooting, Dr. Reed's final belief was as follows. James Holmes was mentally ill, but at the time of the Aurora Theater shooting, he was legally sane. Now leading up to the trial, James was assessed by several psychotherapists. In addition to Dr. William Reed, the judge also appointed Dr. Jeffrey Metzer to do an evaluation.

And Dr. Metzer had the same findings. He determined that after the shooting, while James was in prison, he was indeed psychotic. However, at the time of the shooting, James could separate right from wrong. Therefore, he was sane. However, the psychiatrist that the defense hired disagreed. Her name was Dr. Raquel Gur, and she believed that James was acutely psychotic, leading up to, during, and after the shooting, and that he likely suffered from some form of schizophrenia. Dr. Reed spent 22 hours with James, and Dr. Gur only spent 13 hours with him.

And during his meetings with Dr. Gur, he told her that a master power took over him. that the world was coming to an end, that others would be grateful to him for helping them die, that he could rid them of their problems and take them out of their misery. But interestingly, James never shared any of these thoughts with his other psychiatrists. So a lot of people believe that he was just saying all that to play into his insanity defense. In addition, James told Dr. Gher that he picked the theater to commit the massacre because he liked movies. But then he told Dr. Metzner that he chose that location because of the maximum casualty. So, Dr. Metzner actually confronted James about these inconsistencies.

Why did you tell Dr. Ger that you chose the theater because you like movies? James responded. Things changed with time. So as you can see, things got a little messy before trial. Two psychiatrists believe that although James was insane after his arrest, he was sane during the massacre. Then another claimed he was insane throughout all of it. But that would be up to the jury to decide. Now shortly before jury selection, James' parents would write a letter to the court,

asking for them to spare him a trial and the death penalty. In part, the letter said the following. We are Robert and Arlene Holmes, and our son is James Holmes. We have spent every moment for more than two years thinking about those who were injured and the families and friends of the deceased who were killed in the theater shooting in Aurora, Colorado. We are always praying for everyone in Aurora. We wish that July 20th, 2012 never happened. Our son pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity to the charges associated with these shootings.

Defense attorneys for our son first stated in open court in May 2013 that James was diagnosed in Colorado with a serious mental illness. Prior to July 20, 2012, he never harmed anyone and he had no criminal history. We understand that if our son is found not guilty by reason of insanity, he could go to an institution. that provides treatment for the mentally ill for the remainder of his life. This result would prevent any future harm to him and others. We realize treatment in an institution would be best for our son. We love our son. We have always loved him, and we do not want him to be executed.

We also decry the need for a trial. A lengthy trial requires everyone to relive those horrible moments in time, causing additional trauma. In the criminal justice system, the prosecution and defense can agree to a sentence of life in prison without parole in exchange for a guilty plea. If that happened, our son would be in prison the rest of his life, but no one would have to relive those horrible events at a trial the media has permission to televise. We do not know how many victims of the theater shooting would like to see our son killed, but we are aware of people's sentiments. We have read postings on the internet that have likened him to a monster. He is not a monster. He is a human being gripped by a severe

mental illness. We believe that the death penalty is morally wrong, especially when the condemned is mentally ill. Now this letter caused a lot of anger throughout the community, especially for the people whose lives were forever changed by his crimes. Marcus Weaver was in the theater that night with his friend Rebecca Wingo, who lost her life. And here's what he had to say. There's not a day, a minute, or a second, that we don't think about what happened to us. Marcus Weaver says he will never forget what happened on the night of July 20th, 2012. Weaver was shot in the shoulder, his friend Rebecca Ann Wingo, among the 12 people killed inside the theater. And now, more than two years later, we're hearing from the shooter's parents for the first time.

It was really a shot in the arm all over again, but with the letter. The timing was awful. Everything is just, it just feels icky. Weaver says the letter is too late. He is not an advocate for the death penalty, but says in this case he believes the punishment fits the crime. I feel he lost his right for life when he walked in that theater that night. My plea to Mr. Holmes is, and his family is,

just accept what the fate is. If it was decided by the people who you hurt and by the DA's office, it's not going to change. Melissa Cowden, whose ex-husband Gordon died in the shooting, said that the letter was comical. and that she doubted James' insanity plea, which was how a lot of people felt. It was also concerning because,

according to a review of Colorado criminal records, about 60% of murderers who had been found not guilty by reason of insanity were eventually allowed to leave the mental hospitals and move to halfway houses in their community. And just the thought of that potentially happening with James Holmes made people absolutely sick to their stomachs. If you love murder in America, you love mysteries, you love true crime, you love murder stories, and the unknown, that I have a new show for you.

It's called The Conspiracy Files, and it's hosted by me, Colin Browne from Murder in America and the Paranormal Files. On the Conspiracy Files, we explore everything from bizarre deaths to freak paranormal events, pedophile rings, government corruption, rituals sacrifice. No topic is untouched on this show. Everything that we talk about on the conspiracy files is backed up with fact. I release reference sheets with every single episode that we do so you guys know. Everything we're talking about is confirmed to have happened and be real. It's a completely different type of show than anything else you've ever seen about conspiracy theories. Instead of a bunch of conjecture and theories, we're presenting you people with facts,

telling you the story, walking you through the story, just as detailed as we do with murder in America. and then letting the listener decide what they think. Anyways, you should definitely give it a listen. It's called The Conspiracy Files. The links are in the description of this show, and you can find it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And now let's get back to our story.

In December of 2014, jury selection started, and the courts were going to be choosing their members very wisely. This was actually one of the biggest jury pools in United States history. with over 9,000 people summoned. But finally, by April of 2015, they found their members. There were 19 women and two men. Now, we usually don't go over jury selection, but I found this to be very interesting.

Juror 737 was actually childhood friends with the Columbine shooters, Dylan Kleboldt and Eric Harris. Now, by high school, they had drifted apart, but a week before the shooting, this juror had taken one of the Columbine murder victims, Rachel Scott, to prom. So he had been directly affected by a mass shooting. Now Aurora and Columbine are only like 40 minutes away from each other. So when the Aurora shooting happened, it was far too close to home for a lot of people.

And there was another juror who had a connection to Columbine. Juror 535 had a niece who was in the Columbine cafeteria when the shooting started. Her teacher, Dave Sanders, told her to run. And luckily, she would make it out alive, but Dave Sanders ultimately passed. Another juror that was chosen used to be a victim's advocate in Aurora, so she used to counsel people who went through these traumatizing situations. But there were also jurors who worked with people who had severe mental health problems. One was a teacher who had schizophrenic students.

But with that, on April 27th, 20th, 2015, the trial of James Holmes officially commenced. His defense team told the jury that James was insane at the time of the shooting. They talked about how he went to see Dr. Fenton before the massacre because his thoughts of killing people had gotten out of hand. According to them, that was his cry for help. They also talked about his notebook where James went on and on writing down all of his psychotic delusions. And finally, they talked about his family history of mental illness.

As I told you before, schizophrenia is inherited, so it's important that you look at family history to see if there's a history of mental illness. And in Mr. Holmes's case, he was both blessed and cursed by his genetics because he's a very smart person, but he was also loaded for mental illness. The defense told the jury about how James's paternal grandpa had psychiatric disorders. His maternal grandpa had psychotic illness and was diagnosed with atypical psychosis. His paternal aunt had schizoaffective disorder, the same disease that some experts said that James had. So the family history of mental illness was there.

Now the prosecution led by the DA George Brockler was seeking the death penalty, and he told the jury, the James Holmes didn't murder those people because he was insane. He did it for his own personal gain. 400 people filed into a box-like theater to be entertained, and one person came there to slaughter them. His name is James Egan Holmes. He tried to murder a theater full of people to make himself feel better.

During the trial, the prosecution brought forward a number of survivors who would go on to share their experiences from that night. We played a lot of those in last week's episode. They also presented evidence from James' psychiatric evaluations. Two different court-appointed psychiatrists claimed he was sane at the time of the massacre. And again, even though James was having mental health problems at the time, the meticulous planning that went into everything showed that he was not insane. In the months before, James had bought an arsenal of weapons and ammunition.

He practiced shooting those guns. He visited the theater and studied the building so he could maximize casualties. And he even planned his escape for once the shooting was over. He also carefully put together all of those explosives in his apartment, planning every single last detail. The prosecution claimed that that was not the work of an insane person. That was the work of someone with an overwhelming desire to kill. Here are some clips from the prosecution's moving argument.

That moment, that picture's way too lit, but that moment when he stepped in with that tear gas and that gas mask, that 12-gauge shotgun, the 100-round drum clip in his assault rifle, the 40-round magazines on his person. And he stops pulling the trigger only because the trigger stopped working. He knows that his victims won't agree with him. He knows his victims want to live. He knows his victims are going to resist his attempts to kill them. They're going to try to save their own lives. So he leaves nothing to chance.

He's planned for all the contingencies. And all of that planning goes to the intent. With that, after an 11-week trial, the jury left for deliberation. The question in front of them was whether or not James Holmes was sane during the shooting. Twelve hours later, they finally came back with their verdict, guilty of murder in the first degree. There was a huge sigh of relief felt in the courtroom that day. But for many, it didn't change the fact that their loved ones were gone. When Karen and Tom Teaves left court after the verdict this afternoon,

they knew one major part of their life still had not changed. It sucks to have your kid dead. It sucks and it'll never stop sucking. But they know the shooter who took their son Alex's life will never have a chance of being set free. Even though this is a great day, really isn't. Alex is still dead.

All these people are still dead. And all those injured are still injured. Verdict form count one. When the judge read the first guilty verdict, I watched Tom hold himself down in his chair. He spent much of the hearing staring down his son's killer. I don't know if you looked at him in court, but I watched them all the time.

He doesn't care. On Sunday, the Teaves will host what's become an annual beer festival in memory of Alex to raise money for the educational. educational foundation they started in his name. I asked his dad if this verdict changes what Sunday represents. Alex is still dead. All today does is make us not have to worry what we would do if he got back on the street. And the battle wasn't over just yet. It was now time to discuss James Holmes' fate. Would he get life in prison or would he be put to death? That would be

determined during his sentencing trial on August 24, 2015. When that day finally came around, the victim's loved ones got to read their victim impact statements. Here's a sampling of a few of those. My hope is that anyone listening to this, or reading it in the future, will remember that my father was a real man. Even though he is no longer alive to bear witness to this reality, and even though my words cannot do. him justice. I can testify that he was a real man with a real complex, beautiful life, because his love and presence in my life made me the woman I am today.

I want to paint this picture because, to say the least, our first responders were subjected to nothing less than the trauma of war. The images of that night are still haunting. For the investigators, the officers, and the victims' advocates, and the civilian staff, the continued exposure to the sorrow and victimization of the families has had its toll also. Members of our department suffer from a number of problems. Depression, alcohol abuse. We have marital problems going on, and mental and physical health.

problems, all attributed to this event. Our officers and staff continue to receive counseling for an event that is forever seared into the memory of many of us. We know from prior events such as this that we will continue to see effects of this event for years to come. We are anticipating further and ongoing issues in the department, including the possibility of suicide by our own officers. I can't drive by the theater without hearing the fire alarms go.

going off or smelling the tear gas. I still have images of hurt and wounded people leaving the theater, hundreds more in the parking lot in shock. Both of my sons grew up in Aurora, as did I. So everything I see from a McDonald's to a baseball field, to my parents' house, to my sister's house, everything is a constant reminder of my murdered son. Emotionally, I struggle every day.

I continue to go to counseling regularly, but words cannot describe this pain and emotional turmoil. Because of the defendant's crime, Annalise Armando and I will forever live with the sound of human suffering. We live with the memory of the smell, taste, and suffocating effects of the tear gas. It has been burned into every cell of our body. We have to carry the horrific images of what we saw caused by the defendants failed attempt to gain personal power.

My little Avery witnessed the immediate aftermath. My husband had to bring her to the scene to pick up her siblings. She lives with the memories of police officers and guns. the sound of the helicopters, and her mother being covered in blood. When Avery's elementary school does a lockdown drill, she's not like the other children. Avery knows that someone can come to a safe place and try and kill you. My little girl knows that bad people do exist and that you can get murdered on your birthday. This knowledge was gained.

On the day, she entered the fourth year of her life. And to this day, I'm glad I made it out alive. But I can no longer view the world through the same lens that I feel, quote-unquote, normal. People do. And I'll never feel normal again. It makes me sick to know that the defendant will always be a part of my life. I still have lead in my body. I have chronic pain.

I can't form coherent sentences or process long-term memories most of the time. I can't hold down a job. My relationships have suffered because I can't relate to other people. The crime comes up constantly in conversations with people,

especially strangers. And they always look at me like they've just seen a ghost, which maybe I am. I don't know. I don't know what's real and what's not half the time anymore. I guess we have to be. that in common. Family members always look at me as if I'm going to shatter. I feel like their

eyes used to be kind of blinded behind rose-colored glasses and what was done to me, tarnished that for them, despite that, you know, life wasn't easy until it wasn't easy before then. But it's been much harder. And considering that I'm one of the lucky, people, for lack of better words, who survived the theater or shooting. That's pretty awful. The crime made me a target for years after, because even the worst criminals in society apparently have fan clubs. In a perfect world, there would be some sort of sentence that could fully make the defendant

feel the severity of what he inflicted upon others. But since I personally think that he doesn't have that capacity to feel that, and that healing for those affected by the crime is the most important thing right now. I just hope that the maximum penalty will be imposed upon James Egan Holmes for the crimes he committed against humanity. I'm so tired of crying.

I was fortunate enough to have the opportunity to testify about the impact of losing John. So I really don't want to talk too much about that anymore. losing him left in emptiness in a gap that I don't think will ever be filled. Okay. I would like to take this statement in a slightly different direction. Okay.

With the court's order regarding graphic images, one of my big fears was that those types of pictures would end up on the internet and be there forever. Thank you very much for working so hard to preserve the information. integrity of the trial process. Even when I may not have liked the decisions made by the court, I understood why those decisions were made. No one should ever have to see the lifeless blood-soaked body of a beautiful six-year-old girl.

That image will continue to be on the backs of my eyelids for the rest of my life. Many people have experienced survivor's guilt, not able to wrap their heads around the randomness of this tragedy. The illness I was dealing with had me handling the situation in a twisted way. I didn't feel guilty that I had lived. I was jealous of those that died. It took me some time to turn this feeling into something positive. I would be happy to trade my life for theirs, but that is unfortunately not possible.

These 12 lives were taken too soon. If I would be willing to die for them, would I be willing to live for them? This way of thinking helped me press on each day. When I found it hard to carry on, I would think about how badly each of them would want the chances for one more day. So I would push forward and try to make the most

of the life that I still have. I have been blessed to be able to find a way to grow through this trauma. With the help of therapy, medication, and an amazing support system of family, friends, and pets, I have made great improvement and am now a happy, healthy woman. But it took a long time and a lot of work to get to this place. For many months after the shooting,

I was afraid to fall asleep because I wasn't sure I would wake up. And when I did, I awoke from such vivid nightmares that I didn't know where I was or what was real. I know what it is like to have your mind filled with terrible, unwanted thoughts. I know what it is like to see and hear things that aren't really there. I know what it is like to feel so much worse inside than you are letting on because you don't want your parents or your friends to worry about you. I know how it feels to want to seek help, but fear being labeled as crazy.

I know we can never truly understand how someone else's mind works and each person's experience is relative to their own life. I can empathize with what the defendant seems to have been going through at that time, but I know that hurting people was not the answer. We are in a unique and unenviable position in that we cry for James and cry for thousands of people in Aurora. We do not refer to ourselves as victims because we cannot be placed in the same category as everyone else.

We cannot feel the depths of your pain. we can only listen to everything that you have expressed, and we pray for you. We pray for your peace, your peace with the sentence. We pray for your ability to sleep and your ability to find a single moment of happiness, even when happiness seems completely elusive. We are very sorry this tragedy happened,

and sorry that everyone has suffered so much. As for my son, he has said he feels remorse for his horrible actions, but his ability to express his emotions with his face or verbally has been impaired by disease and medication, and we know that that is very, very hard for people to see. see. We want everyone to know that we are seeking ways to prevent future tragedy. We have spent three years educating ourselves about mental illness, and we want to share our knowledge with those who would like to speak with us. I have heard people saying that mass shootings cannot be

prevented. I do not wish to succumb to this defeatist attitude. There are things that we can do. And there are things that our family should have done. I am not proud that I did not know a lot about mental illness. We should have learned more about mental illness. We should have educated ourselves. We should have known our family history better. And we should have realized that signs of mental illness can surface at an early age.

And when a person isolates himself, that can be when the person needs people the most. And I wanted to speak today to promise everyone that we will continue to educate people. Thank you for listening. In the end, James was sentenced to 12 consecutive life sentences without the possibility of parole, plus an additional 3,318 years. It was the longest sentence in Colorado history. He was spared the death penalty by three jurors who could not bring themselves to sentence him to death. One claim that this was due to his mental illness, while the two others didn't believe in the death penalty.

But from there, James was taken off to prison, where he will remain until his dying day. With James in prison, it felt like this horrible chapter was finally over. But for the people directly affected, they still had a long healing. journey ahead of them. They also wanted to make sure changes were made so that this wouldn't happen again. After what was revealed at trial, it felt like this whole thing could have been prevented, especially since the gunman had been telling professionals about his thoughts of killing people. So the main question was, why didn't someone intervene? Now, like we mentioned, Dr. Fenton got a lot of heat after the shooting. Many people were angry that she didn't alert local police after the

school's crisis center failed to step in, but she stuck by her stance that she did all she was supposed to do in that situation. However, Dr. Fenton would later say, quote, These people leak their plans to some degree ahead of time. We can no longer assume that people who say those things are kidding. We need to take vague threats more seriously. There needs to be more scrutiny of social media. If we see concerning behavior, we have to go to the police. end quote. Now following the massacre in 2020, the state of Colorado finally implemented a red flag law, otherwise known as extreme risk protection orders. It's essentially where if someone is exhibiting concerning behavior, or if they are talking about hurting themselves or others, that person's family

members, health care professionals, or law enforcement can petition to temporarily have their guns taken away. As of now, red flag laws exist in 19 states, but at the time it didn't exist in Colorado. Dr. Lynn Fenton would later say, quote, Red flag laws are a good idea, end quote. But interestingly, she said if they had existed during her sessions with James, she probably would have initiated one if it had been an option at the time, adding, quote, In the case of homes, they might have helped.

end quote, Dr. Fenton also made a comment on James's sentence, which she didn't believe was harsh enough. She said, quote, I wish he received a death sentence. He deserved it. End quote. Now, this shooting really caused a cultural shift in America. Up until then, we knew that our schools weren't safe from gun violence. Same with our universities, restaurants, post offices, and unfortunately our places of work. but the idea of a shooting taking place in a movie theater left a lot of people feeling very uneasy. At the time, the movies were really at the center of the social world.

They were a place where people went to relax and enjoy themselves. But following the shooting, even to this very day, people report feeling incredibly anxious when they go in person to see a movie in the theater. And disturbingly, the shooting seemed to have inspired other mass shootings as well throughout the years. Now, 2012 wasn't that long ago. but things were very different back then. Mass public shootings weren't as prevalent in 2012, the way that they are now. Sure, they were on their way to reaching that level of frequency, but that escalation happened pretty fast, and it really didn't happen until after Aurora.

From 2011, the year before the Aurora shooting to 2017, the number of mass public shootings tripled, according to research done by Harvard University's School of Public Health. And as we know, they're only getting more and more prevalent as the years go on. But I think something to take away from this story is that in a lot of these cases, there were and are warning signs. Oftentimes, mass shooters will talk openly about wanting to kill people before they do it, which is why it's incredibly important to report these things if someone you know talks about wanting to harm themselves or harm others.

Now I know we have talked about a lot of heavy stuff in the previous episodes, so we wanted to end on some good that came out of such darkness. Last week, we talked about a man named Alex Sullivan, who went to the movies that night for his birthday. When Alex died, his father, Tom, was devastated. But he decided to channel his grief into action. Tom Sullivan ran for office in Colorado in order to improve mental health resources

and to decrease gun violence. So far, he's been successful in making a change in both of those areas. As of this episode, he serves as a senator for the District 27 in Colorado. Today, Tom still goes to the Century 16 theater every year on Alex's birthday. And every time he does, he tries to sit next to where his son was murder. Tom says that he doesn't feel his son's presence at the cemetery. He fills it there. Alex was such a movie lover, it's like he's getting to watch movies with him, even after death.

But Tom said that he's lucky, because every once in a while, Alex will visit him in his dreams. A lot of times it's the little Alex who comes to me and talks to me and, you know, I can pick him up and stuff. And I'm one of the lucky ones I do have, you know, dreams about him. And, you know, he lets me know how he's doing and is, is there? when I need him. Sometimes he even ages during the time. He starts out as the little guy and is kind of, you know, and then by the end, you know, he gets, and then it's like, I've got to go dad. Do you remember Caleb and Katie Medley? Katie was nine months pregnant at the time of the shooting when her husband was shot directly in the face. And she had to deliver their baby while Caleb was in brain surgery. Like we mentioned, Caleb would go on to

survive, but he was left paralyzed. He lost an eye, and he has trouble speaking. Yet, throughout all that sorrow and pain, there have been distinct flickers of hope. In the years since, the couple has gone on to have another child. They escaped the tragedy together, and despite the troubles, have managed to love one another through the trials and tribulations. Katie would later say that when she married Caleb, she vowed to stick by his side through sickness and in health, which is exactly what they have done. Another couple, Eugene and Kristen Hahn survived the massacre despite Eugene being shot twice. A year later, they decided to get married on the anniversary of the shooting,

turning the date of horror into a date of love and hope. Another survivor of the shooting was a woman named Lassamoa Cross. She was there that night with her fiancé A.J. Boyk, who was tragically killed. Here is what she told Channel 9 News. Someone was stripped from me completely. and I didn't even get to say bye. I think that's what's kind of hard too. It's like I didn't get to say goodbye, you know?

On the night of the shooting, amidst all the chaos, Lassamoa remembered getting help from all the first responders. One in particular was named Cody Lanier. He sat with her outside of the theater that night, trying to help her find out the status of her fiancé. Clearly, it didn't end in the way anyone hoped. But in the years after the tragedy, as La Samoa worked on healing.

She thought a lot about the first responders who helped her, and she decided to write them letters. Here is part of her letter to Cody. Officer Cody Lanier, I know I wrote a letter to the Aurora Police Department as a unit a couple months ago, but I wanted to write one specifically for you. I don't think I made it through three sentences in that thing,

and I'm tearing up. I appreciate all of the work you put forth on July 20th. We lived a traumatic experience that no one person, regardless of their age, should have to deal with. Following this, the two decided to reconnect. And eventually, their friendship blossomed into something more. In 2021, La Samoa and Cody got married. Their relationship has been a cornerstone of their recovery. And together, they honor the victims every year, offering a story of hope and love, emerging from tragedy.

Marcus Weaver had a rough start to life. Years before the shooting, he ended up in a high-speed chase with police. He was looking at 40 years in prison. But around 2008, he pleaded with the judge to give him a second chance. And he did. And by 2012, Marcus had completely turned his life around. He was doing well for himself. And then the shooting happened.

He luckily made it out alive, but his friend Rebecca was one of the victims who died. It would have been easy for Marcus' life to take him. take a turn for the worse, but he decided to use this tragedy for good. Marcus would go on to write a book about his story called Chosen to Forgive. He's now on a board that helps other shooting victims. Marcus said that these groups helped him tremendously in his healing. Another survivor of the shooting was Zach Goldich, who was shot that night. In the years after the tragedy, he was so moved by the first responders that he decided to become a firefighter, and he has since put together a 5K event to help raise money for victims.

Jen Elise Long was another survivor. For eight years, she said she suppressed her trauma, which only hurt her in the long run. But eventually, she began sharing her story in order to heal. And something that really helped her any time she was emotionally struggling with physical activity. She would later tell CBS News,

quote, it helps release those endorphins enough to make me feel level. and if I'm really frustrated or feeling triggered, it's the one thing that will always get me out of my head enough to function the rest of the day. End quote. Genoese would eventually find healing through the nonprofit, pull your heart out.

They use exercise as, quote, an outlet and deterrent to prevent disease, drug addiction, and violence within the at-risk youth and underserved population. She would later say, quote, I feel like it's my purpose at this point, because there has to be a reason I survived it. So I put a lot of my energy into trying to stop these events from happening in the future and also helping people who have experienced trauma, end quote.

Another survivor was Josh Nolan. He was an Iraq war veteran and single father of two when he was shot twice, while shielding friends during the shooting. He spent three weeks in the hospital facing both physical and emotional scars, including PTSD and survivor's guilt. But the recovery of his leg was the hospital. hardest. He would later say, if I can amputate the leg, then there's one more piece I can finally let go of the tragedy, and it's another hurdle in my life I can finally get over. So, in 2018,

he made the incredibly difficult decision to amputate his left leg below the knee. But despite complications, including kidney failure and a hematoma, Josh worked incredibly hard on his recovery. He also got a tattoo to remember the victims. He would later say, even though my injury is a constant reminder every time I look at it, now I have something here to show that I moved forward. It really helps me when I see it. It gives me the extra strength to move forward. Now shortly after the shooting, a makeshift memorial was set up across the street from the theater. It was a way for people to come by and pay their respects to the victims. But in 2018, an official memorial was created, called the 720 Memorial.

It's located inside this beautiful garden, and there's a sculpture. with 83 birds. The first 70 of those birds represent the victims injured in the shooting, and the top 13 represent the lives lost. In the garden, there are also 12 crosses with the names of each victim, their picture, flowers, and special notes from the people who loved them. Following the shooting, some survivors even came together to set up the 720 Memorial Foundation. Their mission reads, quote,

supporting communities impacted by mass tragedy and to celebrate the resilience of our community, end quote. The 720 Foundation has done incredible work. As we know in 2012, mass shootings were not as prevalent as they are today. So over the years, as mass shootings continue to plague our country, the 720 Memorial Foundation was there to reach out to the victims of massacres and offer mental, physical, spiritual, and emotional resources. because they of all people knew exactly what it's like to go through it. The Memorial Foundation also organizes different events to honor victims and survivors,

and they hold a vigil every year in Aurora on the anniversary of the shooting. Today we will be making a donation to the 720 Foundation in honor of the 13 lives lost on July 20th, 2012. Jonathan Blunk, A.J. Boyk, Jesse Childress, Gordon Cowden, Jessica Gowie, John Thomas Larimer, Matt McQuinn, Michaela Medick, Veronica Moser, Alex Sullivan, Alexander Tevis, Rebecca Wingo, and Baby Moser. And also, before we end today's episode, I do want to give you guys a somewhat sad reminder. This is going to be our last show for all of June. This is Courtney and I's summer break where we get to regroup behind the scenes, figure out what stories we want to tell, meet with the team, discuss options and new shows we want to start. And we have some incredibly exciting plans for the near future

that are going to start rolling out in July. But we need some time to work on all that. So Courtney and I appreciate every single one of you who listen. We hope you have a great rest of the month. And we'll catch you all in the first week of July. Hey, everybody. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode of Murder in America. This is such a tragic story. I've said it on the outro of all these

episodes, but Courtney and I both remember when this happened. I distinctly remember where I was when I heard about this shooting. And as someone who has had a lifelong love of movies, my career is film. I went to film school. This disturbed me more than I think almost any other shooting because the attack had occurred at a place that I personally, like I said in the episode, went for comfort. And I'm sure you guys have a lot of thoughts, but I just want to reiterate, thank you all for listening. If you love the show and you want to help support what we do, consider joining us on Patreon. Just head to patreon.com and search Murder in America. On our Patreon, you can get access to early ad-free episodes. And if you love the show and you're missing episodes and you want more and you

haven't signed up for Patreon before, if you do sign up for Patreon, you can immediately get access to a library of over 100 bonus episodes of live. the show. These are full-length episodes of Murder in America with both Courtney and I, full sound design, music, storywriting, everything. But these episodes will live exclusively on the Patreon and they will never be posted on our main feed. Don't forget to follow us on Instagram at Murder in America to see photos from every case that we cover here on the show. And please be sure to leave us a five-star review wherever you listen to this podcast, whether it's Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or somewhere else. Those reviews help us so much.

Anyways, y'all, have a great rest of the month. We will see you guys in July, and I'll catch y'all on the next one.