Murder In America - EP. 106 CALIFORNIA - FIRE CAPTAIN KILLER: California's Deadly Arsonist

Episode Date: April 14, 2023

In the 80's and 90's, California was rocked by an astounding number of arson attacks. Clothing stores, grocery stores, forests... nothing in the state was safe. But when one of these attacks eventually took the lives of four individuals, the attention of the authorities was captured, and the manhunt to catch the killer arsonist began. Little did the authorities know, however, that the killer was hiding among them, like a wolf amongst sheep... - Listen to HOW TO FIND ZODIAC, the new audiobook that aims to unmask the Zodiac killer, on Podium now! https://www.audible.com/pd/How-to-Find-Zodiac-Audiobook/B0BX4NMCGG - This episode is sponsored brought to you by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/MIA and get on your way to being your best self. - To learn more about Microdosing THC, head to https://www.microdose.com and use our special code "MIA" for FREE SHIPPING and 30% off your first order! - Sign up for HelloFresh today at https://www.hellofresh.com/state50 and get 50% off your order and free shipping on your first box! - Stay Connected:  Join the Murder in America fam in our free Facebook Community for a behind-the-scenes look, more insights and current events in the true crime world: https://www.facebook.com/groups/4365229996855701 If you want even more Murder in America bonus content, including ad-free episodes, come join us on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/murderinamerica Instagram: http://instagram.com/murderinamerica/ Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/people/Murder-in-America-Podcast/100086268848682/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/MurderInAmerica TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@theparanormalfiles and https://www.tiktok.com/@courtneybrowen Feeling spooky? Follow Colin as he travels state to state (and even country to country!) investigating claims of extreme paranormal activity and visiting famous haunted locations on The Paranormal Files Official Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/TheParanormalFilesOfficialChannel - SOURCES: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcNN6gNldt0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G2PT82ckYM&t=2s Season 9, Episode 21: Point of Origin – Forensic Files  Ex-Fire Investigator Gets Life Term in Fatal Arson – LA Times Manuscript Adds Fuel to the Fire in Murder Case – LA Times Firefighters searched the rubble of a gutted hardware store… – UPI Ex-Fire Captain Charged in 4 Deaths in 1984 Store Blaze : Arson: Once acclaimed investigator, now serving a 30-year sentence for setting six fires, could face death penalty if convicted of South Pasadena crime – LA Times Burning Ambition – People History in flames – Glendale News-Press United States of America, Plaintiff-appellant, v. John Leonard Orr, Defendant-appellee, 977 F.2d 593 (9th Cir. 1992) United States of America, Plaintiff-appellee, v. John Leonard Orr, Defendant-appellant, 29 F.3d 636 (9th Cir. 1994) Arson: The Scorched-Earth Obsession – Newsweek https://www.frontlinewildfire.com/wildfire-news-and-resources/california-wildfires-history-statistics/ https://www.savethechildren.org/us/charity-stories/california-wildfires-how-to-help-facts-faq#:~:text=More%20than%205.7%20million%20acres,began%20on%20July%2029%2C%202022.  Fire Lover: A True Story  https://anca.org/remembering-the-1990-college-hills-fire/ https://www.healthline.com/health/pyromania#definition https://www.aetv.com/real-crime/john-orr-arsonist-father-firefighter-murderer-family-lori-orr-kovach Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This week's episode is sponsored by Hocum, the new film that critics are calling Damian McCarthy's most unnerving horror yet. From the director of Oddity, Hocom stars Adam Scott, in a deeply monstrous horror that bloody disgusting called pure nightmare fuel that holds you firmly in its grip. Don't miss Hocom, the groundbreaking new horror from Damian McCarthy, now playing in theaters. I really love to get dressed up every once in a while when I'm going out with my girlfriends or on a date night with Colin. But lately I've been trying to be more intentional with my everyday wear. And I've found that the best options that work for me are good quality, effortless pieces that will last me forever and they still look cute. Which is why Quince has always been my go-to. The thing I love about Quince is that all of their fabrics feel elevated.

Their clothing always fits me perfectly, and I can just throw on anything from theirs, and it looks so put together, but it's so effortless. Now that the spring season is upon us, Quince makes it so easy to refresh your wardrobe with spring pieces that feel as good as they look. I love that they always use premium materials like 100% European linen, organic cotton, and ultra-soft denim. And everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar. brands. They also work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen, so you're paying for quality and craftsmanship, not the brand markup. I recently have been on the hunt for a good denim skirt, and so I went to Quince and I ordered their stretch denim miniskirt, and I am absolutely obsessed with it. It is so cute, I've already worn it several times. I have made a ton

of different outfits with it, and I could not believe the price of it. I actually had to go back and double check it because it is such good quality, I could not believe how affordable it was. But that's been my experience with everything I've gotten from Quince. They are so affordable and their items are amazing. And I know you will love them too. So refresh your everyday with luxury that you'll actually use. Head to quince.com slash America for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E-D-E-D-R-E.com. For free shipping and 365-day returns. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.

Life is a journey. I know this. I think we all know this. Some days feel good and other days feel absolutely overwhelming. Whatever's keeping you up at night, it's easy sometimes to feel like you have to figure it all out on your own. But the truth is, nobody has all the answers. And no journey should be taken alone.

However, having someone with you to listen, to understand, and to support. you can make all the difference. I know that I'm a huge therapy advocate I've advocated for therapy for years. And if you want to give therapy a try, BetterHelp is a great place to start. BetterHelp therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the U.S. BetterHelp also does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences and their 12 plus years of experience and industry leading match fulfillment rate means they typically get it right the first time. And something that I love is if you aren't happy with your therapist match, you can switch to a different

therapist at any time from their tailored recommendations. I've personally used BetterHelp in the past, and I think that if you're on the edge, if you're thinking maybe it's time to start therapy, I say just go ahead and do it. There's literally no downside because you don't have to be on this journey alone. Find support and have someone with you in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off at BetterHelp.com slash MIA. That's BetterHELP.com slash MIA. Warning, the following podcast is not suitable for all audiences. We go into great detail with every case that we cover and do our best to bring viewers even deeper into the stories

by utilizing disturbing audio and sound effects. Trigger warnings from the stories we cover may include violence, rape, murder, and offenses against children. This podcast is not for everyone. You have been warned. One of the most destructive things on this earth is fire. And since the beginning of time, humans have used that to their advantage.

For punishment, we used to burn people at the state. In wars, it's been used to wipe out the enemy. Fire can reach up to 3,000 degrees Fahrenheit, and it spreads fast, destroying everything in its path. It can travel up to 14 miles an hour. It can take out entire cities, kill-off populations. And in the U.S. alone, roughly 3,500, hundred people die by fire every year.

Most of us are afraid of it. But in our population, there's a small group of people who are drawn to fires, and it consumes their mind, so much so that they have an impulse to start fires whenever they can. The name of this disorder is pyromania. And often, these people feel arousal, lighting a match, and watching something in Gulf and flames. And these people can be very dangerous because they're often unable to control their urges. And in some cases, people will die because of it. Throughout the 1980s and early 90s,

cities across California were being attacked by a serial arsonist. And within a seven-year period, this person is suspected of starting over 2,000 fires. These attacks caused a, millions of dollars in damage and took the lives of four people, making him one of the worst serial arsonists in our country's history. And his identity would take everyone by surprise. This is the story of California's deadly arsonist. I'm Courtney Browne. And I'm Colin Browne. And you're listening to Murder in America. The state of California has the perfect climate for wildfires. It's dry, windy, and there are flammable plants that cover the landscape.

Because of this, thousands of wildfires tear through California each year, destroying homes, people's lives, and millions of acres. The state currently spends billions of dollars towards fire prevention. But even then, fires there seem to be inevitable. And a disturbing fact is that a large percentage of these fires are started by humans, whether it be an unattended campfire, a discarded cigarette, or an act of arson. Back in the early 1980s, cities all across seven, Central and Southern California were being affected by these wildfires.

There were thousands of them, and investigators were sure that someone was starting them on purpose. So the Glendale Police Department and Fire Department actually created an arson investigation unit, just so they could try and track down who this arsonist was, but finding them would be difficult. You see, arsonists usually act alone, and a lot of the time, the physical evidence at the scene is destroyed, but not all the time. At the site of one of these fires, arson investigating. John Orr found an incendiary device, which is what the arsonist used to start the fire. It was three matches attached to a cigarette with a rubber band.

And as John Orr studied this device with his colleagues, it's clear that whoever created it is pretty smart. Because the way the device works is the arsonist will light the cigarette, throw it down on the ground, and then walk away without anyone noticing. It'll take the cigarette about 10 minutes to burn down, where it will eventually ignite the matches, which will then set the brush on fire. And from here, the fire will spread fast, destroying all of the land around it. So when the arson investigators found this device, they knew that they had an arsonist in their community. And based on the amount of fire started in the area, it was clear that this person was very dangerous.

However, years and years would pass and they were never able to find their perpetrator. But the arson investigation unit continued to investigate suspicious fires in both Glendale and surrounding communities. In October of 1984, they would get called to the city of South Pasadena, California. In the middle of the day, during business hours, an employee at an Albertson store was stalking the show. when all of a sudden, they saw thick black smoke coming from the potato chip aisle. Now, luckily, firefighters came and put the fire out before any real damage was done, but seeing that there was nothing around to ignite the fire, they decided to call John Orr from the Arson Investigation Unit.

And I'm sure at first everyone thought that it was just some teenagers that came in and were playing some sick kind of prank. But as John Orr begins looking through the ash and debris, he stops in his tracks. There, among the burned potato chips were three matches attached to a cigarette using a rubber band. It was the signature device of the person that they had been looking for for years. And John knows that this is their serial arsonist because the device looked identical to the device found at the wildfires. So not only is the arsonist in the area, but it's also clear that he's escalating. Shortly after the fire at Albertsons, investigators are alerted to another fire in South Pasadena at a store called Vaughn's Market.

And just like at Albertsons, someone set a display of potato chips on fire. So the arson investigators rushed over to that scene, but the display was so burned, they weren't able to locate the incendiary device. But it was clear that this was the work of their serial arsonist. And as John Orr studies the scene, he concludes that their suspect is not only smart, but he's also knowledgeable about fires, and that he likely chose to set the potato chips on fire at both stores because of their oils and flammable packaging. Now, unbeknownst to everyone, the fire at Vaughn's Market is not the last time the arsonist

will strike that night. In fact, just a few blocks down the road, another store in South Pasadena will erupt in flames. In the busy suburban neighborhood of Raymond Hill, there's a popular outdoor shopping plaza. And one of the shops there is this huge 18,000 square foot department store called Olai's Home Center. And it was just like any other department store. They had all of your home improvement needs and tall shelves of supplies going all the way up to the ceilings. On the night of October 10, 1984, Billy and Ada Deal arrived at Olaise at around 7.30 p.m. with their two-and-a-half-year-old grandson, Matthew Trioto.

And on their way in, Matthew notices a basket robin's nearby, and he wants to go there to get ice cream. So Billy and Ada tell him that they just have to run into Olaes really quick, but afterwards they can go get ice cream together. So they head into Eda. inside of the store and put Matthew into a shopping cart. Then he and Ada go to the paint department while Billy runs to a different aisle to grab some lumber. And there weren't many people in the store at the time. One, because it was near closing. And two, because the World Series was going on that night. 17-year-old Jimmy Satina was an employee there, and he was a very talented baseball player at his high school. So as you can imagine, he was eager for his shift to end so he could go

home and watch the game. Another employee there was 50-year-old Carolyn Krause, who was a mother of two and wife to an LAPD lieutenant. But at around 8 p.m., as the remaining customers finished up their shopping, a young employee named Jim Obdom sees thick, dark smoke coming from a display rack near the front of the store. So Jim and the other employee Carolyn began going through the aisles telling everyone to make their way towards the exit. But no one was panicking just yet.

As they were looking down all of the aisles, Jim spots Ada Deal and her grandson Matthew, and he tells them, Don't be alarmed, but everyone has to leave the store. Jim then starts to run towards the exit. But when he turned around, Ada was still lagging behind. So he runs back and says,

You have to leave the cart here and follow me. Take the kid and let's go. Jim starts to head towards the exit again. But when he turns around, Ada and Matthew are nowhere to be seen. And there's a huge wall of fire consuming the building. Billy Deal was still in the lumber department when someone yelled out that there was a fire.

He quickly ran towards the paint department where his wife and grandson were, but as he did, he was met with a huge cloud of thick black smoke, making it to where he couldn't breathe or see anything. So he began to yell out Ada's name, but there was no response. And he thought to himself that maybe they had already made it out of the building, so he made his way towards the exit.

Now it's around this time when the lights to the store go out. Employee Jim Optum was still trying to get customers out of the building and now he was in the middle of the store in complete darkness. And the smoke is so bad he can't breathe. So he holds his breath, gets down low on the floor, and begins feeling around at the merchandise to try and find which way to go. But the temperatures were brutal and he could feel his skin burning off. At one point he thought to himself,

that he couldn't go any further, and he figured he was going to die there. But luckily, he pushed forward because just six feet ahead was an exit. As Jim bursted through the door, he fell to the ground. His arms and neck were covered in second and third degree burns, and parts of his flesh were actually falling off of his body, but luckily he made it out alive. Billy Deal had made his way outside as well, but to his horror, his wife and grandson were nowhere to be found. The responding firefighters made it to the scene just minutes after the fire started, but the entire building was already engulfed in flames. Billy quickly approached them and told them that his wife and grandson were still inside, and he begged them to go inside and find them. Several of the firefighters tried to go inside, but it was truly unlike anything they had ever seen.

What was once a department store lined with aisles was now one big flame. There were no aisles, no merchandise, nothing, just fire. It was so large the nearby apartment complexes were evacuated, and a large crowd gathered to help those in need. 125 firefighters would respond to the scene, and it took them hours to finally get the fire under control. Once they did, all that was left of the department store was ash and debris. Law enforcement quickly made their way inside, where they would find the remains of four people. Two employees, 17-year-old Jimmy Satina and 50-year-old Carol Krause, and two customers, Aide a deal and two-year-old Matthew Trioidal.

And now we're going to take our first ad break. We're thrilled to share this new and compelling angle on the highly debated case of the Zodiac Killer. The newly released audiobook How to Find Zodiac, written by Jarrett Kovic, and performed by award-winning narrator Scott Brick, encourages you to forget everything you think you know about the infamous killer, as it reinvestigates what's possible within the case and poses a new suggestion of who's to blame. A mystery that's been at the forefront of American culture for decades. The title and the information within this audiobook will continue to be a large topic of discussion within the true crime community for a while, I'm sure of it.

Fans of true crime, hey, that's you guys, will be instantly hooked to learn who the real Zodiac most likely is. Alan Moore, author of From Hell, praises this new take on the Zodiac investigation as, quote, a scruffy masterpiece of criminology. It seems to me that either Kaubeck's painstaking deductions are correct, or we must urgently revise the laws of probability, end quote. This audiobook is really compelling. I know the Zodiac Killer case has been one that's interested Courtney and I for a while now, for years.

And listening to this audiobook is honestly mind-blowing, so if you're interested in this case, you love a true crime, be sure to check it out. And if you're interested in diving into the case further, you can listen to the audiobook now on Audible, brought to you by Podium Audio. Visit this episode's page or click the link in our description to learn more. That's how to find Zodiac on Audible. And now back to today's story. Three fires in one city, all within a couple of hours of each other.

And they all occurred at stores during business hours. When the Glendale Arson investigators heard about the fire at Olais, just a few blocks down the road from Vaughan's Market, they all made their way over to find a truly devastating scene. There was nothing left of Oles' home center, just ash, debris, and the lingering smell of smoke. So John Orr and John Allen began walking through the scene looking for signs of arson. In a normal fire, you'd look for the area that's the most damaged, and that's where the fire started. And from there, you'll look for a spread pattern.

In arsons, you'll see a number of different spread patterns, but a common one is the classic V pattern. When someone intentionally sets a fire, it will often burn up and out, creating a V shape. And that's exactly what was seen here. Another suspicion that they had was that this fire spread way faster than a normal fire. Now, John Orr tried to tell Sergeant Jack Palmer about these arson suspicion. but he didn't seem very interested in looking into it. Even though there were two arson attempts in stores hours earlier, it seemed like he was more focused on recovering the bodies inside,

which is understandable in a sense, I mean the families of the victims had come to the scene and were sobbing out front knowing that their loved one was trapped inside, burned to death. And everyone just wanted to get them out of there. But at the same time, if this was the work of an arsonist, then they needed to treat it as such. But again, the sheriff's department didn't seem interested,

and they were quick to go against the arson investigator's findings and rule it out as an accidental electrical fire. And both John Allen and John Orr were very upset about this. They were some of the most respected people in their field and they had dedicated their entire lives to identifying arson and no one was listening to them. And given the arson activity in the area, it seemed like it was pretty obvious that the fire at Oles was arson, but no one was taking them seriously, even after four people died. And since the sheriff's office was ignoring his findings, John Orr decided to call other arson specialists in the area to see if they would assist in the investigation. He was sure that someone in their community was setting these retail stores on fire, but he didn't seem to get much help.

And more arson fires were just around the corner. Just a few days after the fire at Oles, another one broke out at a department store in North Hollywood. It was discovered that someone had walked through the store and somehow set fire to a section containing polyurethane foam. Now, this foam is used in a number of things like bedding, furniture, carpet, different types of packaging, and it's highly flammable. So seeing this, or and the other arson specialist go back to the Oles department store to see if polyfoam had been ignited there. But by the time they got to the scene, a wrecking company had already come in and cleared all of the debris. So they had nothing to work with.

And everyone was really upset. This arsonist had killed four people. And because of the sloppy investigation, it looked like they were going to get away with it. Now, it's clear that whoever the arsonist was knew more than the average person about fire and how it works. In two of the known fires they started, they chose a very specific material to start the fire on. In Albertsons in Vaughn's Market, the arsonist started it on potato chips, which have a lot of oil and flammable packaging.

And at the North Hollywood fire, they started it on bar. poly foam, which is extremely flammable. And even further than that, the device used to start the fire was perfectly created. By the time the arsonists lit the cigarette and put it on the material, they had nearly 10 minutes to walk away before anything caught on fire. Then they can sit in the background and watch as all of the chaos unfolds. And that's the rush they would get from setting these fires. Here is John Orr describing the arsonist. This type of arsonist is an attention getting or gets a sexual gratification from watching the fire and gaining an inadvertent attention from being in the crowd and the only one

that knows how the fire started. He gathers attention from that. John Orr would dedicate his life to studying these arsonists and his findings in the Glendale Wildfire Arsons would really earned him respect in his field. After working these fires and studying the behavior of their suspect, he would eventually be promoted to full-time arson specialist, and he was the perfect person for the job. He learned everything there was to know about the subject, and he really dedicated his life to his work. And once John was brought onto the Glendale Arson Investigation Unit, they were clearing about 21% more arson cases than the national average because he was so good at his job. On their own arson investigations, they were working because he knew everything.

He even got some of his work published and respected firefighting publications, and he would teach seminars about his arson research. So the fact that the investigators at the Olai fire weren't listening to him was upsetting to say the least. Two months after the oil fire that killed four people, employees in another oil store would see smoke emanating from a display wreck containing poly foam, which, again, is one of the most flammable materials in these department stores. Luckily, this time they were able to put it out and found in the ash was another incendiary device. The exact same one used in all of the other arsons, a cigarette and three matches attached with a rubber band. The scene

was eerily similar to the other old fire, except this time they were able to put it out in time and there were no casualties. But this just confirmed even further that the first old fire was indeed arson. But even then, investigators didn't see the connection, and they were adamant that the first old fire was accidental. But it wouldn't be long until the arsonist would strike again. On January 13, 1987, in downtown Fresno, California, an employee at a pay less department store noticed a display of sleeping bags suddenly erupt in flames. Now, luckily, their building had an overhead sprinkler system that activated once the fire started, so everyone made it out safely and no real damage was done. But the following day, thick black smoke started a billow from the

Hancock Fabric Store, located right across the street from the Payless. And as the old saying goes, when there's smoke, there's fire. Inside, a customer was shopping when all of a sudden they looked up to see a huge wall of flames that came out of nowhere. All of the customers quickly make it out, but within seconds, the store is completely engulfed in flames. Firefighters quickly arrive on scene, but the fire has already spread tremendously, and it's going fast, suspiciously fast. They arrived just four minutes after the fire alarm went off, so they were there quickly, but the damage had already been done. Once they got control of the fire, they begin their investigation, where they find that the origin of the fire was a bin

of polyfoam pellets people used for storage, the most flammable item in the store, and at the bottom of the ash and debris, investigators find an incendiary device, a cigarette attached to three matches using a rubber band. But this time, it's wrapped in a yellow piece of notebook paper. This paper was likely used to hide the incendiary device when the arsonist walked through the store. Now, these investigators have no idea the amount of damage this arsonist has done throughout California, but they do know that he's hit two different fabric stores in Fresno within 24 hours. And as they were figuring this out, he would hit another one just down the street. The third fabric store was called House of Fabrics, and during business hours, an employee

saw smoke coming from a bin of polyfoam pillows. Luckily, the fire actually put itself out, but when the employee looked in the bin, they found a cigarette attached to three matches, folded up into a yellow piece of notebook paper. Now, from here, the arsonist decides to move to Bakersfield, California, about an hour south of Fresno, and they stop at an outdoor shop and set a display of sleeping bags on fire. They get the fire under control, but as soon as you, his investigators arrive on scene, they get word of another fire just down the road. This one was at a thrift store. The store's manager was in the back doing inventory when suddenly he smelled smoke.

Then shortly after, someone yells out, fire! And luckily, he was able to quickly grab a fire extinguisher and put out the flames before it could spread any further. And again, when investigators arrive on scene, they find the arsonist's signature incendiary device. So the Bakersfield investigators call in Captain Marvin Casey to help them in their investigation. Now, they hadn't yet got the news about the other fires in Fresno, so still no one knows how dangerous this arsonist is. But Captain Marvin Casey is determined to bring this person down, so he carefully takes in the incendiary device as evidence. Now, eventually, Captain Marvin Casey learns about the fabric store fires in Fresno, and he's in disbelieve. This arsonist is targeting cities all over California.

and the MO is the same across each city. Large department stores using that same incendiary device on highly flammable material. And even more concerning is that this person is starting these fires in broad daylight with witnesses all around. So they know that they have a very dangerous person on their hands. And since he's starting fires in multiple jurisdictions, This is now a federal case, and it's now in the hands of ATF. They work with Captain Marvin Casey, and the best piece of evidence they have is the partially

burned incendiary device recovered at the Bakersfield fire. So they examine it, and surprisingly, they find a fingerprint on the yellow piece of paper that held the cigarette in matches, and this is huge. In a fire, evidence like that usually doesn't make it through, but they have their fingerprint. And surely, whoever this arsonist is has likely spent some time in jail, so they figure they're right around the corner from learning their identity. But unfortunately, that wouldn't be the case. They run the fingerprint through the national database, but there's no match, meaning this person

has never been to jail. And investigators are back at square one. So Captain Marvin Casey decides to start looking into other fires around California that were similar. And he finds an alarming amount. Two of them were a long route I-99, and they were arson fires involving that polyphone we keep mentioning. But then he comes across the fires in South Pasadena. And he's shocked to see the exact same incendiary device he found was at one of those fires as well. Then he sees the fire at Oles, the one that killed four people. And like John Orr, he's shocked that they ruled it an accident when two other arsons occurred in the city shortly before.

So he wants to talk to Orr to pick his brain about the fire and learn, kind of where it all went wrong. Casey ends up going to a fire conference in Glendale where John Orr is teaching a seminar, and he asks him about the 1984 oil fire. Now, Casey knows that Orr is one of the best in his field. In fact, Orr was the teacher that got him state certified. So Casey knew he's reliable.

But they meet up at this seminar. and Casey asks him why they didn't rule the 1984 oil fire as arson. And Orr says, I tried my best to tell them that it was, but we were never able to find an accelerant or an incendiary device so they refused to look into it. It seemed like they were more focused on body recovery than they were protecting the crime scene.

So after this conversation with arson specialist John Orr, Captain Marvin Casey is convinced that the same person who is setting stores on fire in Bakersfield is the same guy responsible for the 1984 fire. So he adds it to the long list of fun. this person is responsible for. But in the meantime, the arsonist would strike again. This time, he set four more retail stores on fire

along Highway 101, in the cities of Paso-Robles, Atascadero, San Luis Obispo, and Morrow Bay. And again, they find the signature incendiary device. Then, shortly after that, along Pacific Road, he burns two more stores completely to the ground. And it seems like each time this arsonist strikes, it's even more intense than before.

And unfortunately, years would be able to be. pass, hundreds of more fires would be set around California, and still, no one was able to find who this person was. Then, in June of 1990, the arsonist would strike again, this time in College Hills, California, but it seemed like maybe they were taking a break from department store fires, because this one was another wildfire, the most destructive yet. A woman named Catherine Yassan wrote a piece for the Armenian National Committee of America, where she described what she went through that day. It was June 27, 1990, and the temperatures in college, hills were rising. On that day in particular, it reached about 109 degrees, and it was one of the

windiest days of the year, perfect conditions for a wildfire. Catherine's daughter was supposed to have a swimming party that day, but the parents ended up canceling because of the heat spell. In the article, Catherine writes, quote, I drove home. Since it was so hot, I didn't even put the perishables in the refrigerator. I just left everything on the counter and rushed to take a shower so I could cool off. I was toweling off when I received a phone call from a friend who lived nearby. I was trying to find an excuse to cut her short because my groceries were still lying on the counter. At that moment, I heard sirens. I asked her, do you hear the sirens? And she said, yes, there must be a huge fire. I can see the smoke from my window. When I got closer to the window and looked out, I saw smoke

was right below us. I shouted, my gosh, the fire's in our street. I need to hang up. That was a good excuse. And I hung up even though she insisted on hearing more details. In the five years we had lived in that neighborhood, fire had broken out at the foothill a few times. Each time the firefighters put it out quickly. After the fact, I had heard from the neighbors about the fire. This time my curiosity consumed me. I decided to drive down the street below our home to watch the spectacle. I told my daughter Tina to jump in the car and come with me. How stupid. As soon as I pulled out of the garage, I saw the thick smoke and realized immediately that it was a mistake to drive down. Then I noticed the flickers of fire had reached the hill behind our house. Not until that moment

did I sense the depth of what was happening. It was far more serious than I had thought. The fire had already leaped frog from below to the upper hills. I hurriedly pulled into my garage, close the garage door, and rushed to make a call to my husband, whose office was just a few blocks away. He said he'd be home in a minute. In the rush and confusion, I had little time to think about what to do.

But I remember that while in college, we were asked to write an essay about the first thing we would grab in case a fire breaks out. I ran upstairs to get my family photographs. Now I hear from downstairs my Spanish housekeeper screaming, Signora, signora, the firefighters are here. We must leave. I ran down with my fur coat on a coat hanger. At the door there is a woman wearing a uniform, a dark blue skirt, a blue shirt, and high heels.

with a walkie-talkie in hand. She tells me that my husband couldn't make it home because the streets were blocked. She says take the kids, valuables, money, and a bucket of ice water. Drive down Verdugo Road because the other side is blocked. With my calculation from the minute I arrived home and had taken my shower to the minute the woman showed up at our door could not have exceeded more than 30 minutes. In that short period of time, our neighborhood had become an inferno. While we were driving down the hill, I noticed a guy that had his mouth covered with the

handkerchief and was running door to door to make sure people were aware of the fire. A few houses down, I saw a neighbor, putting paintings into the car to save them. Their house got major fire damage, but they saved the paintings. That's all I remember while leaving the neighborhood. Next, in my mind's eye, I see we're all gathered outside of my husband's realty office, and a shopping center a few blocks down from our house. And we were watching the flames consume the homes. Thick smoke was billowing over the hills, and flickers of fire were dancing on the slopes.

We could see the houses burning to pieces. The helicopters were hovering and dropping huge buckets of water. It was a surreal and extremely intense situation. End quote. This fire that the arsonist started was so intense. It spread across an eight-lane freeway. And at the end of it all, 64 homes were destroyed, and there were over $50 million in damages.

And at the time, everyone thought that it was just a natural disaster. No one had any idea that it was intentionally set. Now, luckily, there were no casualties, but losing your home in a fire is incredibly traumatizing, even if everyone makes it out a lie. My childhood home actually burned down back in 2008. Luckily, I wasn't there at the time, but it was during Hurricane Ike, and my dad was home. And because it was during a hurricane, we didn't have power. And the generator, he was using surged, and it caught our home on fire.

And by the time he noticed, most of our home was already gone. But I remember him calling me and I'll never forget the panic in his voice. And like Catherine said in that situation, you immediately think, what do I need to grab? And you only have a few minutes to do it all. So in my house fire, my dad started running through and throwing our photo albums out of the window. Also, I'm not crying. My voice is just gone and I can barely speak. But yeah, this was back in 2008, so we didn't have social media where you have albums of photos of your families and everything.

So all you have are these photo albums. Luckily, my dad was able to save them all, but we did lose everything. Our house was a complete loss, and we even lost my dog in the fire too. I just remember standing in the ashes of my house and realizing that all I have are the clothes on my back. And it is incredibly difficult to lose your home in a fire. And the fact that 64 families were homeless because of this incident is just heartbreaking. And I can't imagine how infuriating it would be to not only learn that you lost everything, but that someone intentionally started the fire.

And now we're going to take our second ad break. In life, I'm always learning new things about myself. It's actually crazy being married to Courtney because she is constantly pointing out things that I do that I don't even realize that I do, things that I do that might have a deeper meaning. And getting to know yourself can be a lifelong process, especially because we're always growing and changing.

I know that I'm a lot different than I was a couple of years ago, and so is my mind. Therapy is all about deepening your self-awareness and understanding, because sometimes we don't know what we trust or why we react the way we do until we talk through things. That's why Courtney and I love BetterHelp. BetterHelp connects you with a licensed therapist who can take you on that journey of self-discovery from wherever you are. Like I've said before, I love therapy. Therapy is one of the best things that I've ever done for myself. If you haven't ever enrolled in therapy or tried it out, I would highly suggest it to everybody, even if you're at the most happiest, most amazing.

amazing time in your life. Therapy can really benefit everybody. And if you're thinking of starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try. It's entirely online designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule, and all you have to do is fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist.

And one of the things I love about BetterHelp is that you can switch therapists any time for no additional charge. So, discover your potential with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com slash MIA to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P-com

slash M-I-A. And now, let's get back to today's story. Now, they weren't able to find an incendiary device at first because the fire was so intense, but they did see abnormal spread patterns. Normally, in a brush fire, it'll spread in all directions.

But here, it's spread in that infamous V-shape, which is evidence of arson. They also found that there were about 10 separate brush fires set in college hills that day, so clearly someone wanted to watch it burn. And after learning that the College Hills fires of 1990 were the work of California's serial arsonist. Investigators were more eager than ever to find their perpetrator.

Here's arson specialist John Orr speaking at the press conference. You know, was generated by the fire itself. We're extremely toxic. About a five-block area had to be evacuated. Knockdown was moved after about two and a half hours and full extinguished after about 1 a.m. Now, after a while, investigators do end up finding the ignition source to the College Hills fire, and it's a despise.

disposable lighter that has this piece of metal jammed into the depressor, which is that little part you pushed down. And that piece of metal made it to where butane was just freely flowing out of the lighter. But when Captain Marvin Casey and John Orr look at this device, they're sure that it's the same guy that's been setting fires all over California. And they know this because the piece of metal on the lighter is attached with a rubber band, the arsonist's signature. So John Orr and a detective from Glendale PD went to the location of where the fire started, and they started asking around if anyone saw anything suspicious around the time of the fire. One lady said she saw a man standing near the fire's origin, who was around 510 with dark hair.

But that was about all they had. Now, from here, a profile was made on their suspect, and it turns out that they were dealing with a pyromaniac rather than an arsonist. An arsonist is someone that sets fires with malicious and criminal intent. A pyromaniac, on the other hand, is someone dealing with impulse control. And oftentimes, before they start a fire, they'll feel a lot of tension. But as soon as they start the fire, all that tension goes away, and they feel a huge release. And sometimes they even feel a sexual release. Following the College Hills fires, the suspect's tension was rising, and the impulse to start another fire was stronger than ever before.

So within three hours, they set five different stores on fire in Englewood, Laundale, and Redondo Beach. And again, these fires were in broad daylight, while customers were in. inside. And these fires were huge. In fact, a number of people almost died being trapped inside of the buildings. But luckily, everyone would make it out alive. Then, from December of 1990 to March of 1991, there would be 19 more arson attacks around Central and Southern California. And they were all at department stores in the middle of the day. And the fires started on highly flammable material with the arsonist signature device. Captain Marvin Casey and the ATF Task Force working the cases are shocked that out of all of the fires this person had started,

they still only have one piece of evidence. That single fingerprint from the Bakersfield department store fire. Now it had been years since they had put that fingerprint into the system. And since there had been some advancements and technology, they decided to send it off to a lab in LA where they would analyze the print and submit it to the Department of Justice. And what do you know, finally, they had a match. And the name on their screen would shock everyone. The fingerprint belonged to arson investigator John Orr, the very man that had been at the scene on a number of the cases. And the reason it showed up now was because law enforcement officers also have to submit their fingerprints, and when they ran it through again, his name came up.

Now, when the investigators learned this, they thought that it had to have been some kind of mistake. Like maybe his fingerprint got on it when he was investigating the scene. But Captain Marvin Casey assured them that John Orr was never at the Bakersfield scene during their investigation. And the only way his fingerprint would have been there is if he was their suspect, Now, Captain Marvin Casey had suspected that the arsonist was a firefighter for some time now, and he shared this theory with a number of people, but he had been dismissed. And the reason he came to that conclusion was because he noticed that a lot of the arsons were happening in the same city that these arson seminars were taking place.

And if you remember, John Orr would speak at a number of these seminars. So Casey begins cross-referencing. And every time there was an arson, he looked at the attendees that were at the seminar in that city. And he ended up with a list of about 10 people. And John Orr was on every single one of these lists. So as they were coming to this realization, everyone is in shock.

They had been looking for this arsonist for nearly a decade. And he was one of their own the entire time. And even more surprising, John Orr had recently been promoted to fire captain in Glendale after making a near perfect score on his written exam. He truly was one of the most highly regarded people in his field. Many of the people investigating his crimes had attended his training seminars, and they had taken notes on his knowledge of arsonists and pyromaniacs. As we mentioned earlier, once John joined the arsonist,

investigation unit, they were solving 21% more arson cases than the national average, likely because he knew exactly how these arsonists worked. And even more disturbing, as the investigators are looking into these cases, they see that John was often the first person to respond to the fires. And in hindsight, it's because he was the one starting them. Now, as you can imagine, was a lot to take in, and everyone wanted to make an immediate arrest, but they can't just yet. They have to have more proof. Now, in the following days, John Orr was set to attend a five-day training seminar in San Luis Obispo, and based on what they know, an arson fire will likely occur that week as well.

So they set up 24-hour surveillance on John, watching his every move. And just in case they lost track of him, they placed a tracking device on his car. On the day before the seminar, nearly a dozen detectives watch as John gets in his vehicle and makes his way towards San Luis Obispo. They're following close behind, but not close enough to arouse suspicion.

But before they know it, John takes off down the highway at a high speed. He even used his emergency lights on his vehicle just so he could clear the lanes. Luckily, they had aerial surveillance because the investigators on the ground eventually lost track of him. But John went straight to his hotel

and didn't make any stops along the way. They eventually catch up, to him and continue their surveillance. John laid low the first day of the trip, but the following day detect his follow him to a convenience store. One of them goes inside and pretends to be a customer as they watched John go to the counter and purchase two packs of cigarettes. But interestingly enough, John wasn't a smoker. Now, the surveillance on John didn't end up turning out the way they thought it would. During the first four days of the training, he didn't do anything to raise suspicions. But the detectives did note that he never once took a smoke break, and there weren't any cigarette butts

in his hotel room either. Maybe John suspected they were on to him, or maybe his urge to start a fire just wasn't as strong this time around. But on the last day of the seminar, detectives watched as John walked outside and began looking under his car, and after a few seconds, they see him pull off the tracking device. Unfortunately, it was one of those devices with an antenna and a lot of wires, and they didn't conceal it as properly as they should have. And this was really disappointing because now he knew they were on to him. From here, John gets in his car and drives straight to the police department, and the

surveilling officers are freaking out thinking that they've blown their cover. But as it turns out, John Orr has no idea that it's a tracking device. The officer he spoke to even told him that he could contact their bomb squad, but John said that that wouldn't be necessary and that he would take it himself to the nearest explosive disposal range. Now, when the surveilling officers heard this, they quickly called the range and told them that their arson suspect is on his way over, and he's going to bring you a tracking device. so we need you to play along with it and pretend that it's indeed a bomb. And they agree.

John shows up and they set up this fake operation like they're taking a bomb off his car. And they assure John that the device was harmless, but they'd send it off for testing anyways. But before John leaves, he takes a picture of the tracking number on the back of the device. And investigators are a little nervous about this, because that tracking number will trace the device back to the ATF. But after this, John goes back to the last day of the training seminar and acts like nothing ever happened.

and this entire operation ended up leading investigators to a dead end. John never tried to start any fires, and many people believe it's because he suspected someone was on to him. But despite this, the task force continues to surveil John, and during this, fires in the area decreased significantly. It was obvious that he was laying low, so the task force decides to take another approach. They print out his picture and put it in a photo lineup. They then took the lineup to a number of witnesses from the various arson fires and asked, them to identify anyone that was there at the time the fire broke out. And what do you know? A number of these witnesses said that John was either a customer in the store before the fire

broke out or that he was in the area shortly before the fire started. They also checked the Glendale callout sheets and found that John was unaccounted for every single time there was an arson. And this was huge, so much so that they actually started gathering all the evidence to bring to a federal grand jury. And as of now, they really only had enough evidence to charge him with the Fresno and Bakersfield arson spree, the one where his fingerprint was found on the incendiary device. But investigators were working to get a search warrant on his home to hopefully find more evidence of the 2,000 other fires he was suspected of starting. And during this time, they found out that John Orr was actually writing a novel titled Points of Origin, and it was the story of a serial

arsonist firefighter named Aaron Stiles. And John's made-up character was eerily similar to himself. Both were firefighters, both non-smokers, and they both used incendiary devices to start fires. In one part of the novel, he wrote, The time-delay device would ensure a clean escape. He had nothing to worry about. He planted the device five minutes earlier and panic ran through the store. Customers would surely be trapped in the flames. John wrote all about the sexual release Aaron would feel when he committed arson,

and the scenes in which he described this sexual gratification. were nearly identical to the scenes of the arson fires happening throughout California in real life. And a lot of the stuff he was writing about wasn't even in the public record. So the fact that he was recounting real arson stories, when he wasn't even working these cases, proved that he had knowledge that only the arsonist would know. And in the book, just like John, his character, Aaron, would always use an incendiary device to start fires in large fabric or hardware stores, and he always picked polyfoam or other highly flammable materials to start the fire on.

And lastly, his character would start fires every time he attended an arson seminar. In another part of the novel, he writes, He was a loner and insecure. His fires gave him the much-needed attention he craved. He was, after all, the only one who knew how the fires started. To Aaron, the fire was beautiful, causing his heart rate to quicken and his breathing to come in shallow gasps. He was trying to control his outward appearance and looked normal to anyone around him.

So as you can see, John Orr was basically writing a biography rather than a fictional story. Now, even with all of this evidence, they still didn't have enough for an arrest. And by now, authorities had been surveilling John for about seven months. And even though he had that tracker on his car, it seemed like John had been on his best behavior. That is, until November 22nd, 1991. On that day, a large fire broke out in Burbank at the Warner Brothers studio while they were filming a movie. And it was clear that it was arson, so the investigators actually called. called John Orr for his assistance, having no idea that he was being investigated as a serial

arsonist. Now, Glendale to Burbank is about a 15-minute drive, but John Orr just so happened to be in the area when they called, so he said he'd be right over. And apparently, the location of where the fire started was really hard to get to, so they told him that they would meet him outside and lead the way. So they're waiting for him outside of the gate when they get word that John was somehow able to find it, all on his own. Which was strange.

Now, when the task force gets word of this, they immediately check his tracking device. which showed he was near the studio when the fire broke out. So finally, after seven months of surveillance, John slipped up. It seems like he truly couldn't resist his urges any longer. And with that, they issued a warrant for his arrest. On December 4, 1991, as John was at home walking to his vehicle, investigators approached him, yelling for him to put his hands in the air. John truly didn't see it coming, and by the look on his face, he was scared.

Officers from LAPD and the ATF task force quickly placed him under arrest. Following this, he was brought in for questioning, where he adamantly denied his involvement in the fires. At some point in the interview, however, he defeatedly asked how many of his fingerprints they found at the arson scenes. It seems like he knew he had been caught, red-handed. Following his arrest, police searched his home where they found cigarettes, matches, rubber bands, and yellow notebook paper that were identical to the ones that started the arson fires around California. They also found a flyer that the ATF had put out, hoping to catch their arson. It seemed like John wanted to keep it as a memento of sorts.

And now we're going to have our third ad break. I know that we've talked about this on the show in the past, but I have to bring it up again, microdosing. Microdosing is something that Courtney and I are so obsessed with, and let me tell you guys, it is one of the best things that you can do for your mind and your body. So if you don't know, microdose and the concept of microdosing are commonly associated with psychedelics, wellness, performance enhancement, and creativity. And if you microdose, you can have a creative boost, you can enjoy the moment more, you can sleep better, you can have pain relief, anxiety relief. Microdosing can even help you in the bedroom.

And if you think that there's a stigma behind microdosing, there isn't. Just know that all sorts of people, professionals, college students, parents, they're all microdosing daily to feel healthier and perform better. Our show today is sponsored by Microdose Gummies. Microdose Gummies deliver perfect entry-level doses of THC that help you feel just the way. amount of good. I am a hardcore multitasker and microdose gummies help me slow down, put my phone to the side, and help me really enjoy where I am and what I'm doing. I love how they help me kind of get into the book that I'm reading or take in more of the beauty around me when I'm on a hike. So if you want to try it out, I would highly suggest trying it out with microdose gummies. Microdose is available

nationwide. And to learn more about microdosing THC, just go to microdose.com and use code MIA to get free shipping and 30% off your first order. The links can be found in our show description, but again, that's microdose.com with code MIA. And now let's get back to today's story. Another disturbing fact about John Orr's crimes is that he often photographed the fires he started as they were burning.

And he always said it was for educational purposes, but in hindsight, it's clear that it was all for his own sick pleasure. Even more disturbing is that he photographed the 1984 Olay fire as four people were dying inside of the building. And investigators even found some photos of the buildings before they were set on fire, meaning he photographed them knowing he would come back and burn it down. And lastly, found at his home were letters to literary agents. One read, quote, My novel is a fact-based work that was,

follows the patent of an actual arsonist that has been setting serial fires in California over the last eight years. He has not been identified or apprehended and probably will not be in the near future, as in the real case, the arsonist in my novel is a real firefighter." Now, as you can imagine, when word got out that California serial arsonist was the Glendale fire chief, everyone was shocked, especially his colleagues who had worked with him for years. But you know how sometimes you'll find something out and everything kind of starts making sense? Like you're finding connections that you didn't know before. Well, his colleagues are connecting all the dots and they are positive that he was responsible

for the 1984 fire that killed four people. and the reason he was so pissed that they ruled it an accident is because he wanted the credit for that fire. I mean, John himself said that the arsonist loved attention. I played this clip earlier, but let me play it for you again. Here is John Orr describing the arsonist. This type of arsonist is an attention getting or gets a sexual gratification from watching the fire and gaining an inadvertent attention from being in the crowd.

and the only one that knows how the fire started, he gathers attention from that. Even further, he once wrote in the American Fire Journal, quote, The fire becomes a friend they can relate to. The fires bring attention, friends, admiration as heroes, self-esteem, like a drug addict, one good score leads to the desire for another, end quote. Now, John adamantly denied his involvement in the Olai fire, but interestingly enough, in his book, he writes about a fire that broke out at a hardware store, where five people would die, including a three-year-old boy named Matthew and his grandma.

Sound familiar? He also wrote about how the character in his book wanted credit for the fire, saying, quote, Aaron wanted the fire to be called arson. He loved the inadvertent attention he derived from the newspaper coverage, and he hated it when he wasn't properly recognized. The deaths were blotted out of his mind. It wasn't his fault, just stupid people acting as stupid people do. End quote.

Another quote from his book was about the victims who died in the fire. And it reads, quote, The last thing she heard was a tremendous rule. as the fire burned through the roof and vented to the outside. The smoke momentarily lifted, but then was replaced by solid fire as the entire contents of the annex exploded into flames. Their last breaths were of 800 degree heat that seared their throats closed. End quote.

And that part of the story just makes me sick to my stomach because he's reliving these people's last moment. and a fire that he started. And it's clear that he felt no remorse about what he did. And then the fact that he was taking pictures outside that night just proves that he truly is a monster. Investigators combed through John's entire novel and they were able to match the stories to several other fires throughout California.

It was truly more of a confession than a manuscript. And now it's suspected that he committed over 2,000 fires throughout the 1980s and early 90s. Then we'll get to his trial in a bit. But first we want to talk a little bit about John's family. On the outside looking in, John Orr was a family man with a loving wife and two daughters. As you can imagine, they were devastated

when they learned the truth about their father. A&E actually did an interview with his daughter, Lori, and we want to read you some of the things she said. The interviewer asks, were you proud of your dad when you were a kid? My sister, Carrie, and I looked at him as our hero. We would go to school and tell all of our friends he was on the news. We would go to his work and he seemed important and highly respected.

Everyone liked him. We were proud of him and we loved being with him. What did you think when he was arrested for arson? He told me this is a mistake. There is a firefighter lighting these fires but it's not me. I know who it is and we will get it all worked out. Looking back, were there clues? My dad said he had the matches, paper, and cigarettes in his briefcase when they raided his house.

And he said it was because they would do training classes, and he would show students the devices people used. He had an excuse for things. And my sister and I were young enough that we didn't know any better. We just took it all at face value. We loved our dad. He was a hero. Why wouldn't we believe him? We'd never caught him lying to us before.

When did you really start doubting him? When he was arrested, I kept saying, if I was being charged with something I didn't do, I'd say, you've got to believe me. I didn't do this. He never did any of that. All of these little things kept popping up that were bothering me. Over time, I read my dad's novel,

and the book Firelover, a true story. I talked to a family member who told me about catching him with cigarettes and confronting him because he didn't smoke. My dad told that person that he was lighting brush fires, but not to worry because no one was getting hurt. That, to me, was the smoking gun. I was like, why didn't you tell me that sooner? On July 21st, 1992, John's trial would start for the arson sprees in Fresno and Bakerfield. At the end of it all, the jury would find him guilty. on three counts of arson. At his sentencing, John continued to declare his innocence, reading to the

court. Your Honor, my life has been dedicated to the fire service and law enforcement for over 22 years. I have personally been trapped by fire and smoke on three occasions. I know the panic, the terror, and the helplessness that even a well-equipped professional firefighter can experience as a fire advances out of control. I know how those witnesses felt. My heart went out to them. I don't wish that kind of experience on anyone. And I feel helpless and frustrated because the person responsible remains at large. I have fought fires, performed rescues, and carried the bodies of men, women, and children who have died as the result of fire and smoke. But the judge didn't seem to have much sympathy, and he told John, the evidence was substantial. You are guilty on each

of these counts, and what I must say to you as a sworn law enforcement officer is that the proof of your guilt then establishes that you betrayed the highest trust that was placed in you to the public from the terror you have described. Following this, John Orr was sentenced to 30 years in prison, and he was ordered to pay the victims of his crimes over $225,000 in damages. And if for whatever reason you're listening to this and questioning John Orr's guilt, it should be noted that the fires around Central and Southern California dropped 90% after John was arrested. And now we're going to take our final ad break. You guys know how much we love HelloFresh, and once again, we have to spread the gospel of Hello Fresh T y'all because once you sign up, I don't think you will ever,

what would you call that? Un sign up, unsubscribe, whatever it is. Hello Fresh is one of our favorite products and our favorite services that we've ever talked about on the show. But what is it? With Hello Fresh, you get Farm Fresh pre-portion ingredients and seasonal recipes delivered right to your doorstep. You can skip trips to the grocery store and count on Hello Fresh to make home cooking easy, fun, and affordable. That's why it's America's number one meal kit. One thing that we love is that that HelloFresh takes the hassle out of meal time and delivers those pre-portioned ingredients and easy to prepare recipes right to your door. It's awesome because Courtney and I don't even have to leave the house to go grocery shopping. We're so busy. It's amazing to have

HelloFresh just shipped right to us. The recipes are simple. They're easy to make and they are so delicious. Once again, I can't tell you how good enough the food is from HelloFresh. And if you're looking for more ways to save money this spring, I just have to tell you that Hello Fresh is cheaper than grocery store shopping and 25% cheaper than takeout. You can spend less time in the kitchen with quick and easy meals like HelloFresh's fast and fresh pineapple chicken tacos or falafel power bowls, meals that are literally ready in 15 minutes or less. And HelloFresh keeps your taste buds on their toes with 40 recipes and over 100 seasonal

and convenience items to choose from every week. With so much variety, there are options for everyone and every lifestyle. Like I said, Courtney and I have been signed up with HelloFresh for a long time. We love the food. It's so much fun. We have a little date night three times a week cooking our meals from HelloFresh, and it's amazing. So go to Hellofresh.com slash State50

and use code State 50 for 50% off plus your first box ships free. Once again, just go to Hellofresh.com slash State 50 and use code State 50 for 50% off plus your first box ships free. HelloFresh, America's number one meal kit. And now let's finish out today's story. Now, John Orr's time in court was far from over. The following year, he was facing eight more counts of arson, but he ended up making a plea deal where he pleaded guilty to three of them.

And while all of this was happening, the task force was putting together their case on the 1984 oil fire. And five years after the first trial, he was indicted on one count of arson and four counts of murder for the oil fire. He was also charged with arson in the Warner Brothers fire and 16 counts of arson for the College Hills fire that he started. And additionally, three other counts for fires around the Glendell area. So this was a huge trial, and John was now facing the death penalty.

His daughter would end up testifying for the defense, and A&E would later ask her about what that was like. Her response was, I was in 100% save my dad's life mode. When I was walking through the very full courtroom and didn't recognize anyone, I looked at him. He was the only person I knew in there, and he just stared at me. I thought he would at least mouth, I love you, or something. But there was nothing. That's one of the little things that bugged me at the time, but not enough to question his innocence. They then asked her, was he grateful for your time?

testimony? To which she responded, no, not at all. He never said a word about it. He didn't even ask us. His attorneys asked. In the closing argument, the prosecution said he was as much a killer as someone who shoots their victim face to face. Only how John Orr did it was with so much more terror and deception. Under the guise of being the protector of good, John Orr was in fact the perpetrator of evil. Now, the jury would end up finding John Orr guilty of all the arson charges and all four counts of first-degree murder. During the victim impact statements, Matthew Trialel's mother and Ada Deal's daughter, Kimberly, would say,

I frequently feel the way a cat looks when you hold it by the scruff of the neck in mid-air, with arms and legs and everything going everywhere. And it is trying to get some kind of perch, but it can't. Because when I lost my mom, I lost the person who held my hand when I learned to walk. I lost the person who put the veil on my head when I got married. The one person who I probably would have turned to, who could understand the mother's loss of a child, was my mom. but she wasn't there to comfort me.

And in losing my child, I have lived with that guilt and the shame of it every single day because I know how afraid he was of dying in that horrible place. I know he saw that mommy would come and save him because that's what mommy's do. And I never came. During his sentencing, the jury voted against the death penalty and he was sentenced to four life sentences,

one for each of the lives that he took. Following his trial, John was brought to a California state prison where he remains to this day. And since then, he has maintained his innocence, stating that the only reason he took that plea deal was because there was the best deal he was going to get. And he continues to claim that his book was entirely fictional. It was all a big misunderstanding.

But it's safe to say that John Orr is a liar. And in reality, he's one of the worst serial arsonists our country has ever seen. I really wanted to tell this story on the podcast because I thought it was so interesting. A man sworn to fight fires to protect people from the flames. A trusted official that behind closed doors was starting all of the crimes that he was working on solving. And I think at the end of the day, it really is safe to say that John learned the hard way

that if you play with fire, you're eventually going to get burned. Hey, everybody, it's Colin here. Thank you for listening to this week's episode of, of murder in America. I'm sorry we had to take a break the last week because Courtney and I have had the flu. We've actually been really, really sick. We lost our voices.

Mine was gone for almost a week. Courtney's is still healing right now, as you can probably hear in this episode. But we're so thankful for all of you guys who are out there listening and to those of you who joined us for our live stream on Instagram last week, which was awesome.

But I want to shout out our new patrons this week, Ashley Luzour, Christa Liarguz, Scarlet Roche, Nathan Sumpton, Chris, baby rums, Brian Tripadina, Natasha Adkisson, Zachary Simpson, Jordan Dennis, Garrett Mills, Lindsay Cook, Lacey Powell, Dustin Burrell, Tammy Goodson, Ravenna Kelly, Steve Dahmer, Sloane Nehouse, Agent Nuggies, Robin Brewer, Heather Marie, Minty Green, Oscar Castillo, Kayla Hall, Carol White, Nick Kemmler, Andrea Finlay, Dania Rojas, Kathy Martinez, Maddie Gassar, Danny Winn, Phoebe, Belinda Lively, and Heidi Rodriguez. Oh my God, guys. Once again, I'm so sorry if I slaughtered any of your names, but thank you all so much for being patrons and for

becoming patrons. If you don't know what that is, all you have to do is sign up to become a patron at patreon.com. Just go search Murder in America there. We post the ad-free versions of every episode that we air here on the show on our Patreon as soon as the episode drops on all streaming platforms. So if you don't like the ads, head to Patreon. We're working on getting some bonus content up there too. If you want to follow us on Instagram, head to Murder in America on Instagram. We post case photos from every case that we cover here on the show. And I just wanted to tell you guys one more how appreciative we are of you all and how much we love you from here in philadelphia i guess we will see you guys next week have a good one growing up my mom was always the best at handling sticky

stressful situations i mean we have so many crazy family memories so many things that stick out to me so many trips that we took and just funny moments i mean i remember specifically one just crazy time when we had jet skis and we took them out we had rented them for the day and we took them out on this lake, and somehow something got on the engine of the jet ski. Mine stalled, my dad stalled, and my mom and sister had to come rescue us because we floated to shore on the other side of the lake. We've got some hilarious pictures from that day. But it's just one of those memories that I don't want to let die. And aura frames can help keep those moments alive.

So basically, an aura frame is like a virtual frame that can display photos and videos from anywhere. You can upload to the frame. You can share new photos. constantly change the library and it's really a perfect gift for a family member because you can personalize it at any time. And the aura frame is the perfect Mother's Day gift to capture the chaos that you might have put your own mom through and the memories that came with it. With free unlimited storage, you can add as many photos and videos to your aura frame as you want. And something that I love is that you can actually preload the aura frame with photos before it ships and you can keep

adding to it from anywhere at any time. Each aura frame also comes packaged in a premium gift box with no price tag, so it's great if you're giving it as a gift. And actually, Aura Frames run off a top-rated app. In fact, the app reached number one on the App Store on Christmas Day, 2025. So make Mother's Day special with Aura Frames. Named number one by Wirecutter, you can save on the gifts Mom's Love by visitingoraFrames.com. For a limited time, listeners can get $25 off their best-selling Carver Matt Frame with code M-I-A. That's AURAFrams.com promo code MIA.

Support the show by mentioning us at checkout, terms, and conditions apply. USAA knows dynamic duos can save the day, like superheroes and sidekicks or auto and home insurance. With USAA, you can bundle your auto and home and save up to 10%. Tap the banner to learn more and get a quote at usa.com slash bundle. Restrictions apply. You're great at protecting your data, but lots of places could still expose you to identity theft. I thought it was safe. If that happens, LifeLock gives you a U.S.-based restoration agent who will stick by your side from start to finish.

Phone calls, filing documentation, preparing insurance claims, your agent handles it all. In fact, we're so confident restoration is guaranteed. Pour your money back. Isn't it nice to have someone like that on your side? Save up to 40% your first year at lifelock.com slash Spotify. Terms apply.