Murder In America - EP. 21 IOWA - Gitchie Manitou: The Most Haunted Crime Scene In America
Episode Date: June 26, 2021In 1973, four teenagers were shot and killed in a random burst of violence in the middle of the woods while they were camping. And the thought of those killings would go on to haunt an entire city to ...the present day. Gitchie Manitou State Preserve was already a burial grounds for indigenous tribes, and then there were the murders. Colin (the co-host of the podcast) has investigated this location many times over the years, and in this special episode of the podcast, we not only dive deep into the disturbing murders that took place in 1973, but also the paranormal activity that haunts the ruins of Gitchie Manitou. You're listening, to MURDER IN AMERICA. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
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Warning, the following podcast is not suitable for all audiences.
We go into great detail with every case that we cover and do our best to bring viewers even
deeper into the stories by utilizing disturbing audio and sound effects.
Trigger warnings from the stories we cover may include violence, rape, murder, and offenses
against children.
This podcast is not for everyone.
You have been warned.
Have you ever gone camping?
The kind of camping where you're deep in the woods on a cold,
fall night. You and your favorite people are bundled in blankets gathered around a campfire.
Someone's playing the guitar, you're singing old folk songs, and maybe you're having a few
drinks. In the pitch black of night, all you can see are the people in front of you and what the
campfire's light can reach. Beyond that is the darkness of the forest that surrounds you.
We all take a risk when camping, knowing that there's darkness beyond what our eyes can see. But the
Chances of that darkness entering the light of your campfire is usually pretty low, so we take that risk.
We continue to camp, to laugh, to sing our songs, and enjoy our night.
But occasionally, that darkness does enter the campsite.
And in our case, it's holding a loaded shotgun.
This murder story is brutal.
It has no explanation.
And these murders left a permanent mark.
This is the story of the Gitchie Manitou murders, and you're listening to Murder in America.
Our story starts in Lyon County, Iowa, in the very northwestern corner of the state.
The location is actually just a 15-minute drive from Sioux Falls, South Dakota, where I grew up.
Everyone involved in this case, both the victims and the perpetrators were also from Sioux Falls.
I grew up hearing the story and visiting this location, so this case means a lot to me,
and it really impacted my hometown.
Sioux Falls isn't a very big city and there are still less than 200,000 people that live there and less than a million in the entire state of South Dakota.
If you drive east out of Sioux Falls for about 10 minutes, you'll soon cross the Iowa border.
And before you know it, you're surrounded by green fields for as far as the eye can see.
And as you drive through the fields on the tiny small town roads, you'll come across an unassuming gravel parking lot to your right.
The entrance to the Gitchie Manitou State Preserve.
Back in the early 70s, the Gitchie Manitou State Preserve was a great place to go hang out with your friends.
It was secluded, it had plenty of woods to go wandering through, a huge river running through it for swimming, and a lot of places to set up a campsite.
It even has an old abandoned post office deep on the property, an eerie building where you could go for some sort of thrill.
The preserve nowadays seems fun and harmless, but its history is a lot darker than one way.
would imagine. The land itself is actually an ancient indigenous burial ground, and the name
Gitchi Manitou translates to great spirit, originating from the Inishinaabe tribe. The preserve has a
dark history. No one knows how many indigenous people are buried on its 91 acres, but what we do
know is that these lands were sacred to the people that once gathered there in the thousands
and lived in the area. Tales of indigenous spirits haunting the preserve make for spooky campfire
stories. Stories that I often heard growing up, stories that many people in the area heard while they
were growing up, which made Gitchie Manitou the perfect place for a night of camping back in the
1970s. On November 18, 1973, a couple decided to take a drive through the preserve. It was a Sunday,
just before the holidays, and the drive through Gitchie Manitou was beautiful, perfect for a nice
Sunday afternoon. And as the two are slowly driving, enjoying their time together, one of them sees something
lying in the grass up ahead.
They drive up a little further, put the car in park,
and the two step out so they could get a better look at what's up ahead.
As they step closer, they noticed three men lying in the tall grass,
covered in blood, and clearly dead.
The police arrive on scene and quickly determine that the victims are all teenage boys.
They also observe large gunshot wounds in some of their backs, head, chest, and hands.
Judging by how big the wounds were, officers could tell that the victims had been shot with a shotgun at close range.
As they're processing the crime scene, investigators find a campfire, one that the group had been using right before their deaths.
And just beyond the campfire, investigators find a fourth body.
This male victim, too, had been shot with a shotgun at close range.
They take the bodies to the medical examiner and are later able to identify the victims as Mike Hadrath, a 15-year-old boy,
Roger Essem, who was 17, and two brothers.
Stuart Beatty, who was 17, and Dana Beatty, who was 14.
All four of the boys were residents of Sioux Falls, South Dakota,
and they had all been found murdered in the Gitchie Manitou State Preserve.
Their families were quickly notified about their deaths,
and they were absolutely devastated.
Mike Hadroth's brother later said this.
They were all just teenagers, just out to, you know, spend an evening together,
playing music and and you know what a way to you know unexpected that was a tragedy for for all families
that were involved and it just didn't make sense to anyone they were all young good kids who
never got into any trouble they didn't have enemies so who would have murdered them
the families told investigators that the boys took stewart's blue van out to get you man
that day. But the van wasn't in the parking lot when investigators arrived on scene. So they put an all
points bulletin out, hoping that if they were able to find the van, they would be able to find their
perpetrators. And I say perpetrators, plural. Because as the medical examiner looked at the victim's
bodies, they noticed that the boys had been shot with different gauge shotguns. On the bodies, there was a
12-gauge shotgun wound, a 16-gauge wound, and a 20-gauge wound, which led in front of the
investigators to believe that there was most likely three people involved in this horrendous crime.
But this information wasn't much help to investigators at the time.
The families had no clue as to who would have done this, and there wasn't much evidence at
the scene that pointed towards anyone in particular, and authorities were starting to get frustrated.
Four dead teenagers and no leads in the investigation.
That was, until law enforcement received a call from the Sioux Falls Police Department,
and what they tell them, blows the case wide.
The officer at the Sioux Falls Police Department tells investigators about what had just happened.
A young girl had just walked through the front doors of their police station.
She nervously walked up to the counter and identified herself as 13-year-old Sandra Chesky.
She goes on to tell the officer that she had been at Gitchie Manitou on Saturday night with her friends.
But while they were all hanging out, three men came out of nowhere,
identified themselves as police officers, and separated them.
her from her friends. Sandra had no idea that her friends had been murdered. She assumed that they had
been arrested by the so-called police officers that night. The next morning when she tried to call
Roger one of the murder victims, he didn't answer. And that's why she decided to go into the police
station to try and locate her friends. Investigators knew that Sandra would be the one to help them
solve their case. But first, they had to tell her the terrible news. Her friends were dead.
Sandra was absolutely devastated after learning about the murder of her friends,
especially because one of the victims, Roger Esham, was Sandra's boyfriend at the time.
About a month before the murders, Sandra and Roger had met at the Starlight Drive-in,
a local staple, and the two had instantly fallen in love.
And now she was finding out that her first love had been murdered.
Investigators asked Sandra to walk them through exactly what happened that night,
and she goes on to say this.
It was Saturday, November 17, 1973,
and Sandra gets a call from her boyfriend, Roger.
He tells her that he, Mike, Stewart, and Dana really wanted to head out to Gitchie
Manitou that night to camp, and he wants to know if Sandra can come with them.
She agrees, and later that night, at around 10.30 p.m.,
they all arrive at the preserve in Stewart's van.
They brought with them a guitar, their camping gear, and a little bit of weed.
The group was in good spirits, and they were ready to have a fun night.
Sandra said that they had started the campfire.
They were singing songs, passing the joint around,
and that she and Roger were cozied up next to each other by the fire.
All was well in the world.
The group had only been there about 30 minutes at this point,
but they planned to stay up well into the night.
That was until they started to hear noises emanating from the dark forest that surrounded them.
The sound of the guitar was interrupted by something creeping towards them.
They all paused, listen closely, and what they heard shook them to their core.
It was the sound of twigs snapping beneath someone's feet,
inching closer and closer to their campsite.
And whoever was out there could see them,
but all that the group could see was the darkness of the forest.
Roger yells out.
Hello?
Who's there?
Is there anyone out there?
But he's met with deafening silence.
He then looks at Sandra, gives her a kiss, and says, I'll be right back.
Roger starts to walk towards the woods when all of a sudden a loud shotgun blast rings through the forest.
And Roger drops to the ground.
Everyone around the fire gets up.
Confused and panicked, Mike pushes Sandra behind a tree.
And while Sandra is lying on the ground, she hears another shotgun blast.
Followed by Stewart screaming,
I'm shot!
The next thing she knows, three men appear from out of the forest.
There was a heavyset man, a shorter man, and a tall and slender man,
and all three are holding shotguns.
The tall, skinny man, who the two other men referred to as the boss, yelled out to the teenagers.
Put your hands up. You're being busted.
The men told the teens that they were narcotics officers
and that they had seen them smoking a joint and were there to bust them.
The teens were confused.
The men had no uniforms, no badges, and they had just shot two of their friends.
Is this what narcotics officers do when they see teen smoking weed?
Regardless of their confusion, Sandra was young and truly believed that these men were police officers.
Mike, on the other hand, wasn't as easily convinced.
He stood up and asked the men,
What the hell do you think you're doing?
One of the men then points his gun right at Mike.
Mike extends his arm out in front of his face trying to protect himself against the shotgun blast.
Mike looks down at his mangled hand that the men had just shot a hole through, and he screams out in pain.
The men then instructed the teens to start walking up the trail.
Roger and Stewart were still on the ground after being shot, so they stayed by the campfire,
while Mike, Dana, and Sandra started walking away with the so-called officers.
The six of them walk all the way back to the parking lot,
And next to Stewart's blue van is an old pickup truck.
The man who's considered the boss turns to Sandra and orders her to get inside the truck.
Once she's inside, he gets into the driver's seat and the two of them drive away.
The two of them drive around for what felt like an eternity.
Meanwhile, thousands of thoughts are running through Sandra's head.
And the boss was quite talkative on this car ride.
He was telling her that her friends were going to be okay.
And that the guns that they had used to shoot them were just just,
tranquilizers. Sandra was relieved, thinking that her boyfriend Roger was just asleep back at the
campsite, not dead. He then told Sandra that if she listened to him, he would let her go home and
she wouldn't get in any trouble for smoking the weed. Sandra remained calm listening to the
officer while they drove around for another hour. Eventually, he pulled the truck onto a property,
and up ahead was a farmhouse, with an old white paint job and broken windows.
And in front of the farmhouse is Stewart's blue van.
For a split second, Sandra is relieved, thinking that her friends are on the property.
But that relief soon fades when all she can see are the other two police officers.
The boss gets out of the truck and tells Sandra to stay put.
Sandra sits there, nervously watching the three officers talk to one another.
As they're talking, they keep glancing over at Sandra.
An uneasiness starts to overtake her, and her intuition tells her that something is wrong.
The next thing she knows, the heavyset officer starts walking towards the truck.
He opens up the door, grabs Sandra, and begins to sexually assault her.
After the horrific rape that Sandra experiences, the boss gets back into the truck and asks for directions to Sandra's home.
Sandra tells him where she lives, and surprisingly enough, he drops her off at her house at around 4 a.m.
Before she can get out of the car, he looks at her, and he says,
If you ever tell anyone about this, I will kill you.
Luckily, Sandra doesn't stay quiet about what happened that night,
which brings us to the Sioux Falls Police Station,
where now she is telling investigators exactly what happened.
Unfortunately, she learns that her boyfriend and her friends were not shot with tranquilizers
and that they're all dead.
It turns out that Sandra had been the only survivor of that fateful night.
Investigators then placed a protective order on Sandra,
given that one of the men drove her home and knew exactly where she lived.
Sandra did her very best giving descriptions of the three men to a sketch artist.
But they never mentioned any names or any other identifying information,
so it was still unclear who the suspects were.
Investigators were also able to tell, based on Sandra's account,
that the truck the men drove was a Chevy pickup from the early 70s.
But that's about all the information they could go on.
All that they knew was that three men had brutally murdered 14,
teenagers in cold blood and that they were somewhere on the loose. By Monday morning, the story of
what happened at Gitchie Manitou was all over the news in the surrounding areas.
By Monday afternoon, there had been a break in the case. Stuart's blue van had been located in
Sioux Falls in the parking lot of a truck stop. Crime scene investigators swept the van desperate
to find anything that could lead them to a suspect, but unfortunately they came up with nothing.
No fingerprints, no blood, nothing. So investigators go back.
to the drawing board, and they think that maybe if they locate the farmhouse that Sandra had been
assaulted at, they could possibly get closer to finding their killers. So they bring Sandra in,
and they make a grid of the area surrounding Gitchie. Based on the amount of time that she was in the car,
they estimate that the farmhouse had to be within 50 miles of Sioux Falls. So they assign officers
to different parts of the grid, tell them to drive around, and ask them to be on the lookout
for that eerie white farmhouse. Thanksgiving was approaching and investigators were doing
everything in their power to find the perpetrators before the holidays. The public pressure was on and no one
around town felt safe. They had officers looking for the pickup truck, the farmhouse, and for anyone and
everyone that matched the sketches. They were even driving Sandra around almost every day to see if she
could locate the farmhouse where she was taken, but their efforts were coming up empty.
Sandra spent that Thanksgiving without any answers.
without her best friends and boyfriend,
and with cops watching over her house,
with loaded guns,
to make sure the perpetrators didn't come back to finish the job.
And on November 29, 1973,
Sandra went with investigators yet again to search for the farmhouse.
I'm sure that after weeks of doing this,
Sandra felt a little hopeless,
like this day would be just like every other,
another day without any real answers.
But as they're driving and Sandra's looking out the window,
She notices a white house with broken windows.
And she immediately recognizes the property.
There in front of her is the old white abandoned farmhouse with broken windows.
She calls out to investigators.
That's it.
That's the farmhouse.
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And as they're all standing there in front of the house, they hear Sandra scream.
Suddenly, she jumps into the arms of one of the officers.
Her eyes are wide, and she's pointing at a Chevy pickup driving down the road, screaming.
That's him, that's him, that's the boss.
The other officer runs to the patrol car and immediately pulls over the Chevy pickup.
As he approaches the driver's side window, he asks the man to identify himself.
Defeated, he replies that his name is Alan Fryer.
He was the boss in this horrific story.
The officers asked him to step out of his vehicle and they immediately take him into custody.
And what are the odds that after almost two weeks of officers driving around looking for suspects,
that Sandra would be the one to ultimately catch them at the very moment that they drove by?
I'm sure that that was a beautiful feeling for her.
When investigators take Allen into the interrogation room and start questioning him about the murders,
he adamantly denies ever being at Gitchie that Saturday.
He tells officers that he could never commit the crime that he's being accused of and that
they have the wrong guy.
He continued to claim this innocence for hours, but at some point investigators were starting
to break him down.
Alan eventually admits that he and his brothers, David and James, were out at Gitchie that
night, but that he had absolutely no part in the shootings.
He tells investigators that his brothers were the ones that shot the teenagers.
Investigators ask why they shot them, Alan replies that the teenagers had started shooting at them first,
and they had just returned fire to defend themselves.
But it was clear to everyone that Alan's story wasn't true.
The truth was that Alan and his brothers were evil with a desire to kill.
Alan, David, and James Fryer, the monsters of Gitchie Manitou.
Now that investigators knew their names, it was time to find.
out who they were. Their parents were Lyle and Mildred Friar, local farmers in Sioux Falls, who had a huge
family. Alan, David, and James were just three of the family's seven sons, and in the family
there were also six daughters. The family was known for farming and harvesting crops from different
properties around Sioux Falls. They were also known as people that loved the outdoors, as they spent
a lot of their time outside going hunting and engaging in other activities in the wilderness.
The father, Lyle, was very strict. Like a lot of
farmers, he made his kids work long hours on their property, even referring to them as his
chore boys. And when they wouldn't listen to his every rule, they got into a lot of trouble.
Many kids in the neighborhood saw the way Lyle Friar would talk to his wife and kids, and they
knew not to mess with him. He was scary and intimidating, but that didn't stop his kids from getting
into trouble. The Friar's sisters had a decent reputation around town. They were good and kept
to themselves. But the Friar brothers were known as troublemakers. Alan had always been the leader,
of the brothers. He liked to talk, be around people, and he was always known for his white lies.
Many people claimed that Alan would constantly tell these stories that just weren't true.
I feel like we all know someone like that. And Alan, amongst his brothers, kind of ran the show.
David was the second oldest of the three. And since his older brother had such an alpha personality,
he was the more quiet and submissive type.
He never really talked much
and he kind of stayed in the shadows.
The youngest, James, was a handful to say the least.
He was a very violent individual
and outspoken for most of his life.
James' crime started when he was just nine years old
when he stole a car.
All three of the brothers fed off of each other
when they were together and they were extremely close.
They, in effect, were the perfect storm.
Allen, the boss of the group, would often suggest that they commit crimes around town,
and David and James would be right there by his side ready to partake in the illegal activities.
In 1967, when David Friar was just 16 years old, he was arrested for driving around town
shooting at people with his 22-caliber rifle.
The news of David Friar trying to shoot people didn't come as a surprise to many.
The brothers absolutely loved guns.
People would often see the boys walking around proudly with their weapons, constantly polishing them
and talking about them.
And the two main things that the Friar Brothers had become somewhat notorious for was their affinity for stealing and poaching.
They were constantly taking anything that they could get their hands on.
And when they weren't stealing, they were in the woods, with their shotguns, illegally shooting deer.
It was said that when the boys did get in trouble for their crimes, they didn't seem to have any remorse,
which led people to believe that they would have a long criminal rap sheet in their future.
And boy, did they.
Just six years after David's shooting incident, the friar brothers murdered the four teenagers at Gitchie Manitou.
After Allen's confession to police, it was now time to bring the other brothers into custody.
They were able to quickly apprehend David, who was hiding in his home in Sioux Falls.
When authorities went to find James, however, he was already in jail for robbery.
Interestingly enough, he was supposed to be in jail on the night of the murders.
But the jail officials had let him.
him out on that very day, on a work release, not even a single day out of jail, and he was
already murdering people. And it's sad to think that if they would have kept this man in custody,
that this story may have ended a lot differently. After bringing the men into custody,
investigators put them in a lineup. Sandra Chesky walks into the room and takes a look at each
and every face. When she gets to David, she identifies him as one of the men that killed her friends.
She continues down the line and stops at James.
She then tells investigators that that was the man who had raped her.
During the brother's interrogation, they too, like Allen, denied that they were at fault,
claiming that the teens started shooting at them first.
And I guess the Friar Brothers' blood isn't that thick,
because they all started to point the finger at one another, turning on each other,
and trying to take the blame off of themselves.
After breaking down their stories, the investigators were slowly,
starting to piece together what actually happened that night. And this is what they found out.
With James fresh out of jail for the day on November 18, 1973, the brothers set out to do what they
do best, poached deer. So they headed out to Gitchie Manitou with their 12-gauge, 16-gauge, and 20-gauge
shotguns. And as they're walking through the dark forests of Gitchie Manitou looking for deer,
they see the light of the campfire in the distance. Not only do they see teenagers sitting around the
fire, but they also smell weed. Alan, the oldest,
of the brothers suggest that they go to their campsite and steal their marijuana.
The brothers make their way towards the teenagers, and as soon as Roger stands up from the fire
to confront them, Alan fires his shotgun, killing him instantly. James then points his shotgun at
Stewart and pulls the trigger, severely injuring him. Next, the brothers introduced themselves
as narcotic officers, and the rest of the story unfolds. But there are parts of the
story that we still haven't heard. What happened after Sandra and Allen drove away in the pickup truck?
Well, according to the brothers, Stuart, who had been badly injured near the campfire, had mustered up
enough strength to stand up and walk in their direction. Once he reached the area where his friends were,
James took the keys to Stewart's van and turned it on. The three remaining victims stand there,
unsure of what will happen next. When all of a sudden, James and David appear from out of the van,
brandishing their weapons, and they shoot them one by one.
Weeks of the Friar Brothers being on the loose, they had all been apprehended and would soon face
a trial for murder. But Sandra Chesky was not getting the closure that she had hoped for.
She wanted law enforcement to include rape on James Friar's charges, but they weren't interested
in doing so, saying that first-degree murder was a good enough charge. And although she was
disappointed, she was also relieved. The Friar brothers would be in prison forever, and she would
never have to worry about them again. Or so she thought. David Friar pleads guilty to the charges
against him, wanting to avoid a trial, and with that he is sentenced to life in prison. Alan and
James, however, decide to plead not guilty. Alan's trial came first, but with Sandra's damning
testimony against him, he never stood a chance. The jury found him guilty of first-degree murder
and sentenced him to life in prison.
At his trial, on June 20, 1974.
After his trial, on June 20, 1974,
Alan sits in the Lyon County Jail,
waiting to be transported to the Fort Madison Maximum Security Prison.
Alan and James are both in this jail,
and they create a plan.
Late at night, when they were supposed to be sleeping,
Alan takes apart his prison bed
and retrieves a piece of wire from it.
He then uses that wire to unscrew the bolts in his cell
and somehow manages to free himself.
Acting quickly, Alan sees a pair of prison keys close by.
He grabs them and walks over to his brother's cell.
After many attempts, he's able to unlock it.
And before they knew it, the two had escaped and walked right out of the prison doors.
It wasn't until 8 a.m. the next morning when an officer noticed their cells were empty.
The news of the Friar Brothers escape made national headlines, and there was a huge manhunt set up to find them.
Everyone knew what they were capable of, and people were worried that they would be next.
Sandra Chesky was especially worried after hearing about their escape.
She had finally felt a sense of peace after their arrest.
And now she was fearing that they would come back and finish the job.
Officers sat outside of Sandra's house that night with loaded shotguns,
ready to open fire at anyone that came to hurt Sandra.
It wasn't until the next morning that word spread that Alan and James had been found,
500 miles away in Gillette, Wyoming. Officers had once again apprehended the brothers and brought them
back to jail. James's trial came shortly afterwards in December of 1974. The jury, of course,
found him guilty of first-degree murder, life without the possibility of parole. And with that,
all three Friar brothers would go to prison never to experience freedom again. And that's where they all
three still sit to this day. Sandra Chesky stayed quiet for many years after the murder.
murders. She was ashamed of what happened that night. There were terrible rumors going around town
that she was involved or that she was responsible for the murders. The weight of those rumors are
heavy on a 13-year-old girl. She was a victim that night, raped by men that thought that they
could take control over her life. And the healing was difficult. After decades of staying quiet
and pushing the memories of that night down, Sandra decided to use her.
her story for good and helped write a book called a Gitchie Girl, telling her story of what happened that
night. She is now an inspiration to many victims of rape and violence, and she uses her voice
to help others that have been in her situation. In an interview, Sandra says this.
These boys were the nicest, most respectable kids, and we would have never done anything to bring
this on. I walked with my head down for 40 years.
And I blacked everything out.
I started doing some events, and the outpouring from the public was amazing.
I mean, every librarian, every library, every event, the sheriff's family took me in as one of their own.
I had so many girls come up to me during these events and hug me and whisper in my ear.
I was raped, and you're my hero.
You have to talk about it. Don't hold it in. I felt like I was not good enough.
I started healing because I started talking and people were embracing me.
At the end of the day, I, speaking from personal experience, can tell you that the Gitchie
Manitou State Preserve is indeed haunted in more ways than one. Not only is this property isolated,
but it's dark, it's ominous.
And when you're out there late at night, it's quiet.
If you listen hard enough to the silence,
at times you can almost hear the sounds of a guitar echoing from within the woods.
It feels almost alive.
It has an energy of its own.
And regardless if you believe in the paranormal or not,
you can't honestly say that Gitchie Manitou isn't haunted by something.
It is, after all, haunted.
by those four gruesome murders that took place there on that very land back in 1973.
So if you're ever in Iowa, I implore you. Head out to get you Manitou. Go at night after the
sun has already set. Make that long walk down the gravel road and sit alone in the darkness in that
old abandoned post office. And maybe, just maybe, you'll find you'll find out. You'll find out.
the ghosts that you're looking for.
Hey, everybody, it's Colin here.
Thank you again for listening to this episode of Murder in America.
Courtney's with her family right now, celebrating her birthday.
So everybody go wish Courtney a very happy birthday on social media.
If you want to follow our podcast, please check us out on Instagram at Murder in America.
It's the same on Twitter.
And we just launched our YouTube channel.
So go check out Murder in America on YouTube.
We've already got a video posted there.
But Gitchie Manitou, obviously, is a very special.
place to me. I kind of cut my teeth in the paranormal at this place. And the story is so
intriguing and so tragic. And it's really a timeless story, a spooky campfire tale, if you will,
something that will haunt generations for years to come. And especially with this case,
it has me sitting here, finishing this podcast, wondering the same old question,
and don't talk. Or do they? See on the next one, everybody.
