Murder In America - EP. 52 SOUTH CAROLINA - Susan Smith: America's Most Hated Mother

Episode Date: January 25, 2022

In the early 1990's, two children went missing after their mother was carjacked and a random man drove off with the children in the car. No one knew where the kids were, and there was absolutely no trace of the vehicle. While the nation sympathized with the children's parents, David & Susan Smith, Susan was hiding a dark secret... a secret that would shock America to its core. You're listening, to MURDER IN AMERICA. - Fix YOUR back with the Chirp Wheel! Visit https://gochirp.com TODAY and use promo code "MIA" to receive 10% off your purchase! - Get access to the BEST audio entertainment for a WHOLE MONTH for FREE by using our promo code to sign up with AUDIBLE! Just visit https://audible.com/STATE or text "STATE" to 500-500 to sign up! - Improve YOUR mental health AND get 10% off of YOUR first month using BETTERHELP by using our special code! Just click the link! https://betterhelp.com/MIA !! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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and offenses against children. This podcast is not for everyone. You have been warned. We didn't have time because they were in car seats and it was going to take time for me to get them out of the car seat. And they just tell me and said, but I won't hurt. something, and he just took off. But he had a gun, and my big thing is they were screaming, hollering, crying, and I'm just scared

that he just lost his patience or something. I plead to the guy, to the man, me and my wife, plead to him to please return our children to us safely and unharmed. We love our children very much, and we want them return to us safe and sound. Pray even now for their safe return. Thank you. Was last seen wearing a red and white striped outfit and a blue and red coat. In an investigation where the suspect is unknown,

where you don't know where he's liable to turn up, there's not a lot more than you can do is take the complaints, follow up on them, develop your lead, develop your suspects, and rule them out one at a time. It's slow moving. I have to apologize. There's nothing more that can be done for that. But like I say, it's a classic investigation that could not be running any different anywhere else.

...taking care of and that they are safe and that they will return home, safely. I want to say to my baby, that your mama loves you so much, and your daddy, this whole families love you so much. And you guys have got to be strong because you are, I just know, I just feel in my heart that you're okay, but you've got to take care of each other. I'm your host, Courtney Shannon. And I'm Colin Browne. And you're listening to Murder in America. It's October 25th, 1994 in Union, South Carolina, a town nicknamed the City of Hospitality. It was a small town at the time, with a population of around 30,000, and there wasn't much commotion in Union in 1994.

The biggest events in the community at the time revolved around the train tracks and the church in town, but out of its 30,000 citizens, there's one in particular that we're going to tell you about today. It was around 3.30 p.m. on that October afternoon, when a young mother named Susan Smith pulled out of the parking lot of the Conso Products Company, a fabric manufacturing company where Susan worked as a secretary. She left around this time every day to pick up her two children from school, but today was a little different. You see, Susan had been going through a lot recently. Her boyfriend, Tom Finlay, had recently broken up with her, and to make things worse, Tom's father

owned the company where Susan worked. So she was a little sad on this day as she drove to pick up her kids. Life in your early 20s is far from easy, and Susan was learning this the hard way. She was only 23 years old and had recently separated from her husband, the father of her two children, and when she met Tom, she felt like life had finally gotten a bit better. But now, day two were separated, and life was difficult for the 23-year-old single mother. But she does what any single parent does and continues on with her daily schedule, which includes leaving work and driving back to daycare to pick up her two boys, three-year-old Michael, and 14-month-old Alex. But after picking up Michael and Alex from daycare, Susan was anxious, and she couldn't stop thinking about Tom.

Tom and their recent breakup. Where did it all go wrong? And what can we do to make things right again? Susan thought. She loved Tom and she felt like the relationship ended with a lot of unanswered questions. So after picking the boys up from daycare, Susan stopped by the local tavern to drop her boys off with a friend of hers that worked there. She did this because she was going to go talk to Tom one more time. Like anyone who was young and heartbroken, Susan desperately wanted it. answers. So she drove back to the Conso Products Company to talk to him. Unfortunately though, Susan was unable to get the answers she wanted and all she could do now was return back to her boys, Michael and Alex. The three of them went back to their house a little before 6 p.m.

And Susan did her best to pull herself together and make them dinner. But while the boys ate their pizza that night, Susan was still distraught. So much so that she phoned her friend who had just watched the boys to ask him a few questions. The first question was if Tom, her ex-boyfriend, was there at the tavern where he worked. And two, if he was there, had he mentioned her name at all? But Susan didn't get the answers she wanted. According to her friend, Tom indeed was at the tavern. But during his time there that night, he hadn't mentioned her name a single time.

And Susan was understandably upset. In her mind, she didn't do anything. to deserve this. So she decided she needed some time to cool off, to kind of take her mind off of everything. So after dinner, sometime between 7.30 and 8 p.m., Susan strapped Michael and Alex into their car seats in the back of her 1990 Mazda prodigy, and she took off into the night. It seemed to Susan at the time that the drive through the countryside might help her clear her head. After a breakup, everyone needs some time to themselves. A little time. to think, right? After leaving her home and driving around with her kids for a little bit, Susan pulled over

at a local Walmart to pick up some essentials and then drove over to her friend's house to talk and air her grievances. It's a pretty understandable situation, right? Almost everyone has been through a breakup. And if you've been through a rough breakup, I'm sure that you understand that in times like this, you sometimes need to talk to a friend. Susan was genuinely in a tough situation. A marriage ending in divorce with two children in the middle of it all is already rough. But then you're rebound boyfriend ends your new relationship so suddenly and without any answers, anyone in that situation would obviously be confused and heartbroken. Sometimes you just need someone to listen, to understand your problems, and to comfort you. And that's exactly why Susan decided to pay a

visit to her friend that night. But Susan's day would only get worse from here. As she drove to her friend's house on that October evening in 1994, she would stop at a desolate traffic light near the Monarch Mill textile plant in town, just two miles from Main Street Union. It was an average stock, and Susan, with her children in the back of the car, was waiting on the green light so she could hurry over to her friend's house. But suddenly, according to Susan, while waiting at this light, an African-American male approached her car with a gun in his hand, and before she could even react, he started violently breaking into the vehicle.

The armed man entered the vehicle through the passenger door. and he brandished a weapon. Once inside of the car, he pointed the loaded gun at Susan and told her, drive or I'll kill you. Susan was now in a state of panic, and with a gun pointed right at her, she did what she was told. She pressed the gas pedal to the floor and took off in the car with a hijacker and her children still inside of the vehicle. While she was driving, the carjacker held his gun to Susan's rib cage. At this point, Michael and Alex know that something is very wrong, and they both break out into cries. But the carjacker didn't care that there were children in the car.

And according to Susan, he just kept screaming at her to drive east on Highway 49. Susan was terrified as she drove for miles down the road, with a gun pointed directly at her. And she tried to get a good look at the stranger while she was driving, but every time she looked in his direction, he would scream at her, to look away. Her two boys continued to cry in the backseat, but it was to no avail. The carjacker continued to scream at her. Eventually, after driving around for about 10 minutes, the man told Susan to pull off on an access road, which led to John D. Long Lake, a local body of water 80 acres wide used frequently for fishing. So again, wanting to save herself and her children, Susan did what she was told,

and she pulled off of the road. When Susan pulled her car over, the man stuck his gun to her side and screamed at her to exit the vehicle. But as much as she wanted to escape him, she was hesitant to get out of the car because her children were still in the back seat. So she pleaded with him, screaming, please, give me my babies. But he would show her no mercy. But the gun still pointed directly at her.

He then shoved Susan out of the car and hopped into the driver's seat. And then, before she could do anything, the man took off speeding into the night with her two boys, Michael and Alex, still in the back seat of the car. This situation is every mother's worst nightmare, to have your babies taken from you by a stranger. And Susan would go on to say that she was hysterical and frightened to her core. And this was 1994, so Susan didn't have a phone with her, and she was in the middle of nowhere with no vehicle. So all she could do was run. Susan said that she ran for what felt like an eternity until she finally came across a house that belonged to the McLeod family.

Susan frantically knocked on the front door of the home, and the family was shocked to find the young woman in a state of panic, begging them to call 911. Okay. Yes, ma'am. There's a lady to come up at our door, and some guy jumped into a red light with her car

with her two kids in it, and he took off, and she got out of the car here at our house. And he's got the kid? Yes, ma'am, and her car, I don't, and she's real hysterical, and I just decided

I need to call along, get them down here. How the car is it? We need to know something. What's the protege? What color was it? A burgundy-moder protege. Get him going.

Pam, I got two kids. Okay. Realizing the severity of the situation, officers were immediately dispatched to the area to try and find the man speeding away in Susan's car. Five, go ahead. No driving a burgundy protege. Affirmative one of five. Five from one, I understood these were small children. These are her children, and she jumped out of the car, and he took the car with the children, and he's headed toward Chester.

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South Carolina law enforcement division, otherwise known as SLED. And he notified the FBI, and agents were immediately dispatched to union to aid in the search. This was a serious crime, and kidnapping is not something that the small town of union was used to. So they needed all the help they could get. And because of the severity of this crime, nearly every cop in town was on the lookout for Susan's vehicle and her two boys. At some point, while Susan was at the home with the police, she placed a dreaded phone call to her estranged husband, David Smith, to let him know that their children had been abducted. And this call would be forever ingrained into David's mind, and his life from this point forward would never be the same.

David actually wrote a book about his experience, called Beyond All Reason, and in it he describes this moment. How does a father's worst nightmare begin? For me, it all began with a phone call. It's funny how something so ordinary can suddenly shatter your life. But when I think back to that moment now, back to the last time when my life made any sense, What I remember was how ordinary it all was.

I was doing the most typical thing in the world for me, stocking shelves at Winn-Dixie, the supermarket where I work. I was hanging shelf tags on the disposable diapers. It's brain-numbing work, and your mind wanders. I was thinking about my boys, Michael and Alex, because Michael, at three, was about ready to get out of diapers. Like a lot of parents, I was sort of mentally tallying how many pampers I might have to change on him and on 14-month-old Alex

before they would leave them behind completely. The manager's voice came over the stores public. address system. David Smith, please pick up line two. It was a few minutes after 9 p.m. on October 25th, 1994. Susan came on the phone crying, hysterical, jabbering. He's got the kids. He won't let me get the kids. David, he's got the kids. Susan, Susan, slow down. Tell me what. Who's got them? David, I tried to get them, and he's got the kids, and I don't know where they went. I felt panic rising in my throat. Susan was sobbing too much to speak. Another person, a woman, got on the line, and she was pretty incoherent too.

Mr. Smith, your kids, I'm so sorry, but your kids were, your wife is okay, but she got carjacked, and he took the children. They've got the law looking for him. The sheriff's here. Your kids are gone. What, please, what's going on? I could hear Susan wailing in the background. A man's voice came on the phone.

David Smith, this is Sheriff Howard Wells. What's happening to my kids? We're out here at the McLeod's house on Route 49. Your wife has informed us that she was carjacked at the Monarch Mill traffic light. The perpetrator left the scene with the car. The children were in it. Your wife is okay, but at this time, the kids are still missing. Mr. Smith, I think you should come out here.

Do you know where John D. Long Lake is? Yeah, I know where it is. The McLeod places up the hill off the highway, the house on the right, just before the turn off to the lake. After I hung up the phone, I went into overdrive. I ran out of the store with hardly any explanation at all. There was one huge monster thought taking over my brain, and it didn't leave room for anything else.

No emotions, no analysis, no second-guessing. I need to get my boys back. Once David got to the McLeod House, a sheriff met him on the porch and directed him inside to Susan. When David saw her, she was on the ground in a puddle of tears, hysterically crying. She was crying so hard that David had to physically lift her off the ground and carry her over to the couch. And for a moment, all of their differences were put aside. Right now, it didn't matter that they were going through a divorce because they needed each other. Their children had just been kidnapped, and all David could do to try and comfort Susan was to tell her, quote,

they'll find them, I know they're going to find them, end quote. David wrote in his book, quote, at that moment I felt an utter certainty that Michael and Alex were safe and were going to be returned to us, end quote. But unfortunately, by midnight, there were still no leads on their whereabouts. A police helicopter with infrared scanning had been dispatched immediately, but it had picked. picked up no trace of a vehicle or any man or children in the surrounding wooded areas. The kidnapper, along with Susan's car and children, had seemingly disappeared into the night. Susan and David eventually had to leave the McLeod house and decided to go home together that night. Even though they had separated and their marriage was over, they knew they needed to stick together to help find their two boys.

By the next morning, word of the abduction had spread like wildfire. throughout the town of Union and surrounding communities. And there was an absolute media firestorm. Two young boys abducted from Union while their mother was stopped at a traffic light. This type of crime was unheard of in this small town. David and Susan arrived at the local police station early that next morning, Wednesday, October 26, 1994, to provide some details about their children and the abduction. And they were immediately taken into different rooms for questioning.

As David and Susan had separated recently, they were both. both suspects. David, when talking to the police, told them about how he and his wife had recently separated, about how their marriage had been somewhat rocky. And immediately, this set off some red flags. The authorities questioned David about where he had been the night before when the kids were abducted. They questioned him about his marriage to Susan. They asked him time and time again why he was acting so calm when both of his sons were, at the time, missing. But David stuck with the same story, that he had no idea what happened to his children, that he needed help finding them and that his ex-wife Susan would have all the answers.

This initial questioning created a rift between Sheriff Howard Wells and David. Howard was looking at everyone in the case for answers and at the time probably believed that anyone he was questioning potentially could have been involved in the abduction of the two boys, including their father, David. And as frustrating as it is to have people questioning you when you know that you're innocent, this just shows that they were doing good investigative work. In cases like this, everyone is a suspect until proven otherwise. Eventually, Sheriff Howard was done questioning David, and the attention then turned to Susan,

because after all, Susan was the one who had the most details to offer since she was there when it happened. After talking to the police for a while, Susan had provided investigators with an idea of what the perpetrator looked like. But she didn't have a ton of details because he wouldn't let her look at him while they were in the car. But she was able to get a good enough look for them to chalk up a a sketch of the kidnapper. According to Susan, the man who had stolen her car and abducted her children was black and had been wearing a knit cap and a plaid jacket

at the time of the crime. Susan couldn't provide the sketch artist with more details like tattoos or scars, so this minimalistic description was all that authorities had to work with. So the police, the FBI, and SLED took the information they were given and they set out across the state and search for Michael and Alex Smith,

and they knew they needed to act fast. After this questioning, Susan and David went back to Susan's mother's house. It had been a long night for the estranged couple, and according to David, as soon as they got home, Susan fell asleep immediately. But David, David stayed awake. He paced around Susan's sleeping body,

worried for the safety of his two kids, and he stayed up for hours thinking of anything he could do, to help. But eventually he realized that there was nothing he could do, and the fate of his children was now in the hands of authorities. Later that day, on October 26, 1994, a Mazda was seen in the town of Sharon, South Carolina, a Mazda which matched the description of the car that Susan had provided to authorities. However, upon following up on the tip, authorities realized that it wasn't Susan's vehicle. Later that day, the story of the two missing boys became national news, and Susan appeared in front of news cameras begging for the abductor of her two

kids to come back and return her children safe and alive. I can't sleep, I can't eat, I can't do anything, but think about them. And I just want to hug them, I'm sad bad, and tell him I love him. On October 27th, a day and a half had passed since the kidnapping, and still, there were no signs of the two missing boys or the vehicle, but detectives were still hard at work, doing everything they could to locate the boys. They had even brought Susan and David into the station that morning to give them a polygraph or lie detector test so that they could clear them as suspects.

And it was around this time that they got a promising lead in the case. A man who matched the description of the carjacker was captured two hours away in Salisbury, North Carolina, after robbing a convenience store. But when the police investigated the lead further, they found no Mazda and no abducted children. That morning, after their polygraphs, both David and Susan Smith appeared on national television programs. again, begging for their children to be returned to them. Whoever has my children, that they please, I mean, please bring them home. After doing media interviews early in the morning that day,

David Smith was notified by the authorities that he had been cleared as a suspect in the disappearance of his children. But his wife, Susan, wasn't out of the woods just yet. Apparently, she didn't do so well on her polygraph, and she had even told David, that morning that the police thought that she had something to do with it. But David knew that this wasn't true. And he told Susan that he believed her. He knew that she wasn't involved, and he would do everything in his power to bring the kids back home. Later that day, the two once again appeared in front of cameras and begged for their children to be returned home safely. Pray most of all for them, and that they are being taken care of them, and that they are safe,

and that they will return home safely. to say to my babies, that your mama loves you so much, and your daddy, this whole families love you so much. And you guys have got to be strong because you are, I just know, I just feel in my heart that you're okay. But you've got to take care of each other. It was around this time when authorities started to lose hope that they would find the children alive. As you may know, the first 48 hours in child abductions are the most important. And the likelihood of finding the child alive after those 48 hours are slim. So investigators started searching the area for bodies.

And they specifically were looking into the John D. Ling Lake. This lake was near the site where the abduction took place. And authorities thought that maybe they would find Michael and Alex's bodies inside. But after the divers searched, they ultimately, ultimately came up empty-handed. In addition, the FBI searched Susan's home for any leads in the investigation, but again, they came up with nothing. And there was a sense of sadness in the air after the sun had set that evening, knowing that they were no closer to solving the case. On October 28, 1994, just three days after Michael and Alex had gone missing, the search efforts

from authorities intensified. The case was a national story, and the eyes of the world were watching. Mainstream programs like Inside Edition had picked up the story. And Susan and David's distraught faces had suddenly been broadcast to millions of TV screens across the United States. People across the nation were invested in the story of a mother whose two kids had been stolen from her right in front of her eyes at gunpoint. Reports came in that someone had heard a child crying in a national forest in North Carolina, but after searching, authorities were unable to locate a child. And that same day, it was leaked to the press that Susan had failed her polygraph tests. This was a celebrity,

salacious news. Adding fuel to the fire, Sheriff Howard Wells had also gone on the record and stated that some of the stories from family members and witnesses just didn't add up. And soon enough, everyone, not just around Union, South Carolina, but the entire nation started having suspicions about Susan Smith. And here's her response to these allegations. I know right here what the truth is. I can, I can, from some, I can see from their side, why they have to do the things they have to do. But the Lord and myself, I know the truth. I did not have anything to do with the abduction of my children.

Throughout this horrific ordeal, David and Susan had suddenly become reacquainted, and they were spending a lot of time together. They stayed in the same house every day. Both of their families kept coming and going to and from the home, and the ex-couple's bond was suddenly strong again. David Smith wrote in his book, Susan and I were inseparable. If she was at one side of the room and I was over there,

that was too far apart. We wanted to be right beside each other. She would break down and be on her knees crying. Her mother would help her sometimes, but most of the time she wanted me. If I was in the kitchen or someplace, she would send somebody to get me. At night, I would lie close to Susan

in her narrow girlhood bed, stroking her hair. She would turn her face away from mine. But my body cupped around her so that every possible square inch of our skin was touching. As the media grew surrounding this case, the town of Union, South Carolina had become a gathering ground for news reporters. David and Susan couldn't even walk out of their home without a camera being shoved in their face by an overzealous reporter. And the police, family members, and friends were constantly calling David and Susan for updates. But still, days on, they had no answers.

No one had been able to locate the Mazda. No one had seen the black man with the knit cap in the plaid jacket. And more importantly, no one had seen Michael and Alex. At this point, search teams had combed through the lake, walked through the surrounding wooded areas, and questioned every possible witness. But there were still no leads. It was a complete and utter mystery.

The phantom carjacker had seemingly disappeared with the children, playing the role of the boogeyman, a heartless creature that abducts children. and takes them to another realm where they'll never be found. It had been three days since the abduction and hope was quickly dwindling. This podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp Online Therapy. We talk about BetterHelp a lot on the show, and this month, once again, we're discussing some of the stigmas around mental health.

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The people that we have been matched with have been so nice and so understanding. And if you're out there listening to the show and you feel like you need some help with your mental health, please check out BetterHelp. It is an amazing, amazing service ran by great folks. This podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp and Murder in America listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com slash m-I-A. That's B-E-T-T-E-R-H-E-L-P dot com slash M-I-A. Now, let's get back to today's story.

On Saturday, October 29th, 1994, the story of Susan and David Smith and their two missing children appeared on their program America's Most Wanted. On that day, all of the churches in Union County decided to hold prayer vigils for Alex and Michael. Hundreds of yellow ribbons lined the streets, tied on porches, trees, mailboxes, and telephone polls. And after the case was broadcast on America's Most Wanted that day, hundreds of tips came in from across the state of South Carolina and the rest of the country, but none of them panned out. The next day, on Sunday, October 30th, authorities were starting to feel the public

pressure to solve the case, so they searched every square inch of the area where the carjacking took place. They were hoping to find something that they had originally missed, but they came up with nothing. They even searched the lake one more time, hoping to find a lead. But again, they're left empty-handed. And according to David Smith's book, on that Sunday night, he and Susan shared a tender moment in bed together, stating, on Sunday evening, we lay in bed together, talking about the boys. I promise you, she told me solemnly. When all of this is over, we'll be together. I made a promise back to her. When the boys get back, I said we would finally be a family again. She hesitated. Even if they don't come back, you and me can still make it work. Susan, Susan, we'll get Michael

and Alex home. Don't worry about anything else now. 1st, there was a small glimmer of hope when a baby was found in a Seattle motel that matched Alex Smith's description. And the car that had dropped the baby off had South Carolina license plates. And everyone was on the edge of their seats wondering, is it really Alex? Could the search finally come to an end? But to their dismay, it wasn't Alex. Apparently, the man who dropped this baby off had actually turned out to be the baby's father who had moved to Seattle from South Carolina with his wife, and he just left the baby at the motel. And this news was devastating to everyone.

It had now been over a week since the boys were abducted, and it didn't seem like there was any progress in the case. But unbeknownst to everyone, investigators were closer to solving it than anyone thought. You see, shortly after the abduction, investigators questioned Susan's friend, the one whose house she was driving to on the night of the abduction. His name was Mitchell Sinclair, and when authorities gave him a polygraph, he failed it. Now, I wasn't able to find any details on this polygraph or what questions they asked him or what he was lying about, but it was said that detectives did not think of Mitchell as a suspect, but his interrogation did shed some

light on the real story in this case. You see, Susan wasn't driving to Mitchell's house. that night, which is probably a question that came up in their polygraphs. Susan had also originally told investigators that she went to a Walmart on the night of the abduction, but she later changed her story and said she was just driving around to clear her head. Detectives even gave Susan another polygraph and again, she failed it. So what was she trying to hide? Slowly but surely, the truth was starting to reveal itself.

On Thursday, November 3rd, 1994, David and Susan got up early at the crack of dawn. Their story was to be broadcast that day across the nation on morning news shows. Good Morning America, the Today Show, and CBS this morning, to be specific. At a little past 6 o'clock a.m., the interviews with Susan and David were conducted while the couple sat on a couch in Susan's mother's home, one interview after another. The interviewers all wanted to know if Susan was responsible for the deaths of her own children. She adamantly denied these allegations. Here are a few clips from those interviews conducted that morning. We are in Phoenix this morning, but across the country from here,

the kidnapping of two little boys, three-year-old Michael Smith, and his 14-month-old brother Alex, has gripped the town of Union, South Carolina. From the beginning, on October 25th, their mother, Susan, has maintained that she was the victim of a carjack, that her sons were caught in the middle. Right now, we want to go to Union to get the story firsthand from Susan Smith and her husband David. Susan, how are you doing this morning?

Doing okay. Very little sleep last night, but I'm okay. There was some news yesterday and some promising leads in this case. How are you coping with the disappointment of the news from yesterday? It was, I was running around my house yesterday morning. I was excited. I really thought that they had really found something that was, I really thought they had found one of my children and when I got to the courthouse and found out that the lead had disintegrated or there was nothing there. I was very devastated, very disappointed. Got my hopes up and was let down, but I haven't given up hope. That was maybe one of many disappointments, but maybe that's going to be right.

David, where do you think your children are? I have no idea. Do you hold out hope that there's still a lot? Yes, we both do very strongly. This is going to be a little bit difficult to talk about, but even folks in union wonder about the both of you. They wonder if all of the truth of this story has been told. Susan, what do you say to that?

I say that on my behalf the truth has been told. I know right here what the truth is. I can see from their side why they have to do the things they have to do. But the Lord and myself both know the truth. I did not have anything to do with the abduction of money. children. I don't think any parent could love their children any more than I do, and I would, I've never even think about ever doing anything that would harm them. And yes, go ahead. I'm sorry, go ahead, Susan. I was just going to say it's very painful to have the finger

pointing you when it's your children involved. David, this is as equally a difficult question. Are you satisfied that that's true? that what's true? That Susan has told everything she knows? Yes. I believe my wife totally. Susan were led to believe that investigators spent quite a bit of time at your place yesterday. Is that true? Yes, sir. And what do you think they were looking for?

I have no idea. I granted them permission to search my house under the impression that was one of the normalities of the investigation. as far as what they were looking for, what they took, I have no knowledge of that. I'll tell you, but the question that arises and people who have been following this so closely, and certainly you have to know how much emotion that this has generated across the country, is why someone who would be interested

in carjacking or stealing a car, would wanna continue to take a couple of little kids with them. Have you been able to fathom that, Or could you think of why someone would want to kidnap a couple of little kids unless there was some ransom or something involved? No, I have no idea why the suspect has, why he even took the children and why he has not released him yet. We have no knowledge whatsoever.

Susan, what do you think? I think it takes a very sick and emotionally unstable person to be able to take two beautiful children. like that to be able to keep them from their parents, to keep them from where they do belong. I can't imagine why anybody would want to do such a thing as what has happened. David, what message do you have for folks around the country

who are watching right now? That the American people, that this nation, that they don't give up on Michael Alex, that they continue to search for the vehicle, for the children, or for the suspect themselves, and that they keep our family, me and my wife, and our family, but especially Michael Naleks, in their prayers, and keep searching until they are found.

David and Susan, we thank you so much for your time this morning. You're very welcome. After the interviews, the couple returned to their home, and Susan took a little nap. She woke up a little while later and started getting dressed because she needed to drop off a sworn statement to the polygraph expert from the South Carolina Law Enforcement Department. David kissed Susan goodbye, and she headed off to meet the authorities. In the book, Beyond All Reason, David talks about that moment stating, Susan and I ducked out

of the back of the house, avoiding the cameras set up out front. We cut across the backyard and headed to where the sled agent waited in his car. I gave Susan a quick kiss on the mouth and waved as she drove away. It was going to be a quiet afternoon. I was still hopeful of big news about finding Michael and Alex, but otherwise I was content to just be with my family. David and his family hung out all afternoon waiting for any developments, but none came their way. It seemed to be just another day in the search with no leads. But at one point, it was getting late, and David had begun to wonder where Susan was. She was supposed to simply drop off a form to the agents and then return home. So what was taking her so long? And that's when the news

report flashed across the television at Susan's mother's home. Susan Smith has been arrested and will be charged with two counts of murder in connection with the deaths of her children, Michael 3, and Alexander 14 months. The vehicle, a 1990 Mazda, driven by Smith, was located late Thursday afternoon in Lake John D. Long near Union. Two bodies were found in the vehicle's backseat. Identities are pending an autopsy. She needs a psychiatrist. She needs something worse than that. I've never heard anything like this. This is the worst way that Union County could ever be brought on the news. Susan Smith had murdered her own two children. In everything that she had told authorities up to that point had been a lie.

There was no black man who hijacked her car. Susan's car had never been stolen, and she had known where her two boys had been the entire time. And the actual story of this case is way more horrific than the lie she told investigators. According to David's book, Beyond All Reason, here is how he reacted to the news. I just blew out of the house.

I didn't know where I was running to, somewhere to a world where moms don't kill their kids, I guess, waves of blackness, sorrow, rage. I had nausea in the pit of my stomach, a sickening feeling that I had never felt before. Michael and Alex, my world had stopped turning. The two people I loved them most on the face of God's earth were gone. That's when the shock kicked in. I knew they were dead.

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With this massive development in the case, the police, reporters, and the entire nation, was wondering, who is Susan Smith? Well, Susan was born on September 26, 1971, and Union, South Carolina. And she was born into an unstable family. When Susan was only six years old, her father, Harry Smith, died by suicide at the age of 37. And just weeks later, her mother Linda, began a relationship with a man named Beverly Russell, and the two would later go on to marry. was a member of the local union chapter of the Christian Coalition. He was a respected member of society, but it was later revealed that Beverly wasn't the guy that everyone thought he was, because it later came out that he molested Susan when she was only a teenager. And even though

to everyone else, Susan was a popular kid that did good in school, her home life was less than perfect. According to some reports, these sexual encounters between Susan and Beverly her stepfather, they lasted for years. In 1988, when she was still a teenager, Susan found work at a grocery store in town, a job that was only supposed to last a few months. But in that short time span, Susan was promoted to the role of accountant, and once again found herself in hot water. You see, at the time, Susan was allegedly sleeping with two different men.

One man was a co-worker at the same store who was younger than her, and the other man was also a co-worker, but was much older and married. And to make things even more difficult, this was all while her stepfather was still sexually molesting her. At one point, Susan became pregnant from one of these three sexual relationships. Allegedly, when she informed the older married man of her pregnancy, he broke off their relationship. And after finding out that the man was through with her, Susan attempted to take her life by overdosing on painkillers. She was unsuccessful in this attempt, but she had to stay in the hospital for a while. A few years later, Susan met David Smith.

When they initially met, David was already engaged to someone else, but the love and connection that he felt with Susan was so strong that he broke off his previous engagement to be with her. And it wouldn't be long after until Susan became pregnant with David's child. So the two decided to get married. However, the marriage was marked with darkness from the very beginning. Just 11 days before the wedding, David's brother died from complications to Crohn's disease. And this was very hard on both David and his family. Shortly after his brother's death, David's father attempted suicide, and his mother fled to another city to kind of start her life over. But strangely enough, it was through this trauma and sadness where Susan and David really connected.

Susan too had been affected by suicide, and she knew exactly what David was going through. And she was even able to comfort him and help him grieve through that difficult time. which only made their bond grow stronger. Half a year after the pair got married, David and Susan would welcome their first child into the world. Michael Smith. But the couple's relationship wouldn't be strong forever. David thought Susan was extremely materialistic and frequently got frustrated with how often she borrowed money from her mother, Linda. Even though Linda was always ready to help her daughter out with money, in return, she wanted to control how the couple raised their son, Michael.

Only about a year after they got married in March of 1992, David and Susan separated due to reconcilable differences. And during those months of separation, Susan began a relationship with an ex-co-worker. It seemed like men were always a source of comfort for Susan, or rather male attention, when she was going through difficult times. But Susan and David actually worked at the same place, so it wasn't like they were able to easily ignore each other. And they would still sleep together from time to time, despite the impending divorce.

And in November of 1992, Susan and David found out that they were pregnant with their second child. After learning about the new pregnancy, David got back together with Susan, and the two even purchased a home, hoping it would heal their relationship. However, Susan wasn't happy. She was constantly complaining about the pregnancy and just didn't seem to be satisfied with her life. And about a month or so before David and Susan's second son, Alex, was born. David started having an affair with a co-worker. He and Susan's relationship was clearly a roller coaster from the beginning. They were constantly fighting, and it seemed like neither of them were ever truly happy. And just three weeks after the birth of their second son, Alex, David moved out of the house and decided that the relationship was over for good. And it was during this time, after Alex's birth and the couple's final separation, when Susan's mental health really started to spiral out of control.

David and Susan still worked at the same place at the time, which made their breakup extra difficult. So Susan decided that it was time to switch up her job, and she quickly found work as an accountant at the consop person. products, where she worked at the time of our story. But she only worked as an accountant for a short period of time before she was promoted to a much more sought-after job, executive secretary to the CEO and president of Conso Products, a man named Carrie Finley. Susan really liked this job, and she started liking it even more when she came into contact with her boss's son, a man named Tom Finley. Susan found Tom to be very attractive. and to make matters even better, he came from a wealthy family.

So before long, in early 1994, Tom and Susan began an informal relationship. But for most of the year 1994, leading up to the night of October 24th, it was somewhat of a blur for Susan. She dated Tom for a while, then got back together with her ex-husband David, then eventually filed from divorce from David, and then got back with Tom. But the entire time, it seems that Tom was looking for a way out, a way to permanently end the casual relationship that he had started. Tom knew that Susan had two young boys and an estranged husband who was still very involved in her life, and that's not really what Tom was looking for in a relationship. He was still young and had a lot of opportunities ahead of him, and he didn't want to be tied down to a woman with two young children, which leads us to October of 1994.

This was an important period in Susan's life. She had just signed the divorce papers, which legally ended the marriage between her and David, and she was getting excited about her new relationship with Tom. I'm sure that for Susan, things were finally starting to look up. But it was towards the end of the month when Susan received a letter in the mail, and the letter was from Tom, and he stated inside that he basically wanted to end the relationship. relationship with Susan. Definitely not the best way to break up with someone, but in the letter, he explained thoroughly why he didn't want to date her anymore, and he even listed reasons why

she wasn't a good fit for him. In the letter, Tom refers to an incident that had happened recently where Tom walked in on Susan kissing a married man named B. Brown in a hot tub. But more importantly, the main reason Tom didn't want to be with Susan was because of her children. Tom wasn't ready to take on that responsibility. Here are a few excerpts from the letter that Tom sent Susan. I was starting to let my heart warm up to the idea of us going out as more than just friends, but seeing you kiss another man put things back into perspective. I can't let myself get close to you.

We will always be friends, but our relationship will never go beyond that, a friendship. And as for your friendship with B. Brown, of course, you have to make your own decisions in life, but remember, you have to live with the consequences also. Everyone is held accountable for their actions, and I would hate for people to perceive you as an unreputable person. If you want to catch a nice guy like me one day, you have to act like a nice girl. And you know, nice girls don't sleep with married men. Besides, I want you to feel good about yourself, and I am afraid that if you sleep with

B. Brown or any other married man for that matter, you will lose your self-respect. Susan, I could really fall for you. You have so many endearing qualities about you, and I think that you are a terrific person. But like I have told you before, there are some things that you are. about you that aren't suited for me. And yes, I am speaking about your children. I'm sure that your kids are good kids, but it really wouldn't matter how good they may be. The fact is, I just don't want children. These feelings may change one day, but I doubt it. With all the crazy mixed-up things that take place in this world today, I just don't have the desire to bring another life into it,

and I don't want to be responsible for anyone else's children either. But I am very thankful that there are people like you who are not so selfish as I am, and don't mind bearing the responsibility of children. If everyone thought the way I do, our species would eventually become extinct, but our differences go far beyond the children issue. We are just two totally different people, and eventually those differences would cause us to break up. Because I know myself so well, I am sure of this. Again, you will always have my friendship, and your friendship is one that I will always look upon with sincere affection, Tom. When Susan read the letter, she was devastated, and it seemed to be the straw that

broke the camel's back, because she was not only composed. surprised by the letter, but she felt as though she had been betrayed. Tom was supposed to be Susan's one-way ticket to a nicer life, a life of luxury. This was a relationship that really mattered, a new relationship that she could stick with and fight for. But just like that, it was over. And this sent Susan even deeper into the dark depths of her mind. She was now angry with Tom that he would dump her, and without hesitation, she confronted him and told him that not only had she been sleeping with her ex-husband while they were dating,

but she had also had sex with her own stepfather, Beverly. And then, to make matters even worse, Susan told Tom that those weren't the only people she had slept with while they dated. She had also been having sex with Tom's father, the CEO and president of Conso Products, her boss, Carrie Finlay. Susan threatened to make these details public, but Tom had had had had had been in the president of Conso Products, her boss, her boss, Susan threatened to make these details public, but Tom had enough. He saw right through Susan and was starting to get a clear picture of the kind of woman she really was. And it was then when Tom kicked Susan out and firmly reminded her that their relationship was over. And this brings us back to the beginning of our story on October 25, 1994,

when Susan left her place of work to pick up her children from daycare. But we kind of downplayed exactly how upset Susan was actually that afternoon. Like we mentioned, after picking up Michael and Alex, Susan dropped them off with a friend so that she could go back to her work and talk to Tom one last time. But Tom obviously didn't want anything to do with Susan after their last encounter. She had just told him that she slept with his dad and several other men while they dated, but Susan really wanted to go back and talk to Tom because she had actually lied about all of that, or so she said.

She claimed that she didn't actually sleep with his dad, that she just said that to make him mad, but Tom had had enough at this point, and he didn't care what Susan had to say. So when she returned to their place of work, he immediately kicked her off the property before she could explain herself. But in Susan's warped mind, it wasn't her that caused the relationship to end. Her lying to Tom about sleeping with his father had nothing to do with the breakup. To her, the real reason why the relationship was ending was because of her children. They were the main thing keeping her and Tom apart. So in Susan's mind, she needed to be a little bit of her. She needed to do whatever she could to get rid of them.

It was the only way that she might have another chance with the man of her dreams. So she decided right then and there that she had to kill Michael and Alex. And it was here. On that evening, Susan loaded her two boys into the car and drove them to the edge of John D. Long Lake.

Susan made sure that both Alex and Michael were strapped in tightly to their car seats in the back of the Mazda, and then drove the car onto the bus, boat ramp on the edge of the lake. Michael and Alex were blissfully unaware of what was to come. When their mother removed the parking brake, got out of the car, and watched as it rolled forward and crashed down into the water.

Susan sat and watched the entire time from the shore as the car sank deeper and deeper into the depths of the lake. And she didn't leave the scene until every part of the car was below the water line and the water was completely still. The screams and cries for help from Alex and Michael seemingly had no effect on Susan. And she sat there, watching her own children drown before her very eyes, because all she cared about in that moment was Tom, and that the children that were holding them apart were finally taken care of. Now, let's fast forward back to the day of Susan's confession, November 3, 1994. When Susan came in that day, it was clear that investigators were on

her. Her story had not lined up and she had failed multiple polygraphs, and Susan was starting to feel the weight of it all on her shoulders. And she eventually cracked and told investigators everything. There was no black man, no car thief, no kidnapper. It was her all along. After Susan told the authorities the real story of what had happened to her kids, a dive team was dispatched immediately to the boat ramp where Susan claimed she had murdered Alex and Michael, and it didn't take long for the divers to locate the Mazda, which had practically flipped upside down, and landed at the dark, inky bottom of the lake. One diver later recalled seeing a small child's hand still pressed up against the window,

reaching out for help. Alex and Michael's bodies were found hanging from their car seats, with both of their heads slumped forward over their lifeless bodies. Inside of the car, investigators were also able to locate the handwritten letter that Tom had sent Susan, which ended their relationship. It was later determined through autopsies that both of the boys had died by drowning, one of the most horrific ways to die. When you drown, you basically are left screaming and gasping for air, and as your body struggles to gain oxygen, it forces you to take breaths, which in turn fills your lungs up with water.

It was a horrific way for the two children to die, and it showed that Susan Smith wasn't the caring mother she had painted herself out to be in the press. She was a cold-blooded killer. Like we mentioned, authorities had doubted Susan's story from the very beginning. Remember, she failed every polygraph or lie detector test that she had been given, and not a scene. single lead in the investigation into the black man who hijacked her car had turned up any proof of his existence. In addition, the traffic light that Susan claimed the carjacking had occurred at turned out to be a key piece of evidence.

Susan claimed that she had stopped at a red light but there weren't any other cars in the area. And then at that light, she had come into contact with the carjacker. But this was actually impossible. You see, the traffic light at the Monarch Mills road intersection actually only turned red if there was another car waiting to cross the road on the cross street. So on the night that her kids were allegedly abducted, if there were no other cars in the area, as Susan had claimed, the traffic light should have been green and she should have been able to drive straight through it without stopping. And something that Susan told a friend

just five days before the murders also piqued the interest of investigators. Allegedly, Susan had told that friend, I wonder what life would be like if I didn't have kids. Obviously, David Smith, David's family, and Susan's family were completely flabbergasted when they heard the news that Susan had admitted to murdering Alex and Michael. They all had believed her and her story of the abduction the entire time. But as they all sat there in the living room that day, as dozens of news channels talked about Susan's confession, their worlds all came crashing down. The trial of Susan Smith began on July 18, 1995, and lasted for a little over a week. Even though Susan's defense team tried to claim that she suffered heavily from depression,

trauma from her father's suicide at a young age, and PTSD from being molested by her stepfather, the claims of mental illness fell on deaf ears. The prosecution's case was just too strong. They alleged that Susan had killed her children not because she suffered from trauma and depression, but because she wanted to be with Tom Finlay, and she had been willing to do anything to get him back. That letter that Tom sent Susan was used as evidence, and Tom himself provided a compelling testimony and account of the couple's tumultuous relationship. In court, Beverly Russell himself appeared and, shockingly, confirmed that indeed he had molested Susan when she was only 13, and that yes, he had continued this sexual relationship with his stepdaughter throughout

her adulthood. Beverly, however, was never tried for these sex crimes against a child, and the case against him was subsequently sealed and dropped, most likely because he helped out in the murder case, and it seemed that Susan's family members were almost afraid of Beverly, as he was a well-connected and powerful local businessman with strong ties to the Republican Party. But Beverly's account of his abuse against Susan didn't really help her case. To the jury, that didn't even justify or explain why Susan would have killed her own children. And on July 22nd, 1994, Susan Smith was found guilty of murdering Alex and Michael. And six days later, on July 28th, she was sentenced to life in prison with the possibility of parole after 30 years served.

That means that, just a few short years from now, Susan Smith, will become eligible for parole. The years after the murders have been drastically different for David Smith and Susan Smith. Susan has sat in prison this entire time, hopefully thinking about the horrific crime she committed. And in prison, Susan has become somewhat notorious. In the year 2006 years after the crime, Susan was punished after she had had sex four times with a 50-year-old prison guard. During the investigation into this sex scandal, another prison official was found to have sex with Susan as well.

Both prison officials were handed down sentences from the court, and Susan was moved to another correctional facility. And it was at this point when Susan's drug habits began to take hold of her life. Yes, her drug habits in prison. A former cellmate of Susan's, a woman named Christy Smith, who was interviewed for the Lifetime Channel show Cellmate's Secrets, had to say this about Susan. Quote, I've seen Susan do everything. Snort, booty bump, swallow, shoot. I've seen her do it all.

But my main purpose was to bring her pills, end quote. In 2010, Susan was disciplined five different times for a variety of offenses, which included possession of narcotics and marijuana and self-mutilation. But in 2015, after years of deliberation, Susan decided to break her silence, and she wrote a letter to the South Carolina newspaper, the state. In the letter Susan stated, quote, I am not the monster society thinks I am.

I am far from it. Something went very wrong that night. I was not myself. I was a good mother and I loved my boys. There was no motive, as it was not even a planned event. I was not in my right mind, end quote. David Smith, Alex and Michael's father, has killed. completely turned his life around since his two boys were murdered.

In 2003, he married a girl named Tiffany, and the couple welcomed their daughter, Savannah, into the world in 2001. David also had another child after Savannah, a son named Nicholas. David has gone on the record in interview since the murders and has stated that although he hasn't been the best husband, he always tried his hardest to be a great father. And here's what David had to say about losing his kids at the beginning of the book, Beyond All Reason.

I don't want to make one red scent off my two little boys. I spoke those words to NBC interviewer Katie Couric in November 1994, a few short weeks after Michael and Alex had been taken from me. My whole life had just been ripped from its frame. I was shell-shocked and grieving, missing my boys so much. When I told Katie, I never wanted to sell my story to the tabloids, I meant it. Some people might wonder if I'm betraying those words by writing a book. I know the real reason I want to tell my story to the public.

and it doesn't have a thing to do with dollars and cents. What it has to do with is Michael and Alex, whose two young lives were ended in a horrible act of selfishness. As the weeks and months go by since they were murdered, I find myself more and more frustrated. Somehow the focus has slipped away from them, the real victims in this terrible story. When I hear the lawyers talking,

when I hear them holding Susan Smith up as a victim, it makes me angry. For myself, I would have rather stayed silent, but for Michael and Alex, I feel I have to speak. Susan took my babies from me twice, once when she murdered them, and once when she lied about it. She may ask forgiveness of her parents, of the country, of her God, and they may choose to give it, but nobody's grief or sorrow or forgiveness will restore my boys to me. So, I have a simple message. Remember who lost their lives. That's the most important thing I want to remind everybody.

It's why I want to speak out now. To end this episode of the show, I want to end with the little mythology. Have you ever heard of La Girona, the Weeping Woman? While, if you haven't, the legend of La Yirona is a very real one for millions of people. Even though it's thought that the story originated in Mexico, the lore has transfixed parents and children all across the southern United States, especially in the state of Texas where Courtney and I live for years. So, who is La Yerona? Well, here's how the story goes.

Years ago, a poor beautiful woman in Mexico named Maria, married a rich man in her village with whom she goes on to have two children. However, after the birth of the kids, the marriage begins to create. She was a rumble. Maria's husband becomes more distant and eventually one day Maria walks in on her husband sleeping with another woman in their bed. Seeing this, Maria snaps and enters a rage-filled state. Seaving with anger, Maria then takes her children down to a nearby river and drowns them

one after the other, before drowning herself as well, and leaving her rich husband without a wife and kids. Upon trying to gain access to heaven, Maria is asked where her children are. It turned out that she wouldn't be allowed into heaven without her kids. when Maria returned to the river as a ghost to search for the spirits of her offspring, they were already gone. And so the spirit of Maria, nicknamed La Yerona, is now cursed to wander rivers and bodies of water in the southwestern U.S. and Mexico, screaming and crying out into the night in search

of her lost kids. Now, I've studied the legend of La Yerona for years. I even made a whole documentary about this story for my YouTube channel, The Paranormal Files, a few years ago. While filming the documentary, I've visited a bayou in Houston, Texas, where a woman named Wana Tossed six of her seven children into the river, driven by the voices in her head, and two of her children would end up drowning. I also visited Woman Hollering Creek in San Antonio, Texas, where legends state that a mother

drowned her children in the creek to save them from a brutal attack from indigenous warriors. I even traveled to the Rio Grande River, which forms the official border between the United States and Mexico, to see if La Yadona's spirit could be found there. But the most interesting part of my journey was when I interviewed a professor at the University of Texas at Austin, who had done. devoted her entire life to studying La Girona, but she told me shocked me. She stated that, yes, indeed, she does believe in La Girona. She thought that Maria's spirit, or La Girona, was a real entity that's haunting these areas. She felt like she had been visited one night

at her home by the Weeping Woman's Ghost. As on one particular evening, while she was researching the story, a cold chill filled the air, and suddenly she could hear the sounds of quiet weeping emanating from her kitchen, followed by a loud, guttural scream. She even told me of an uncle of hers that had physically seen La Yadona floating above the water in her white dress in the Bay of Corpus Christi, Texas. And the most interesting part of all of this is that in one particular version of the La Yerona legend, Maria drowns her children because her rich suitor in town tells her that she must pick him or the kids.

And so Maria picks the man and kills her own children. But after killing her own kids, Maria watches as their lifeless bodies float in the river, then decides to take her own life as well. Thus the legend was born. When researching for this story, the Susan Smith story, we couldn't help but draw parallels between the old folktale and the tragic murders of Alex and Michael. I mean, it's all right there.

A heartbroken mother, a quarrel between lovers, and two innocent children whose own mother drowned them in a body of water. It's eerie to see how real life in a way seemed to imitate legend. But Susan Smith isn't exactly a la Girona. She's still very much so alive, a broken woman, a living ghost. After Susan murdered her own sons, she didn't take her own life. She actually did something that many would claim is much darker, much more twisted. She tried to get away with it, and she tried to blame her sick and twisted acts on a black man.

And in a world where black people are already discriminated against, Susan Smith took advantage of that, making her even more of a monster than she already is. Some folks in the black community tonight tell me that there will be much healing to be done here, and it's going to take quite a while. Let's listen now to some folks, both black and white, how they feel that this healing will take place here in Union County. They're always accusing black people are doing things that they do themselves. Anytime you say black man and white woman, it's all over.

You know, I mean, that's my opinion. Anytime you say a black man, that's it. And that's why a lot of us are single now. All of our men are locked up. Some of them are innocent. She wouldn't have testified that she's done it. They still would be looking for this suspect. And she could, you know, have got away with it.

Immediately, the American public labeled Susan a number of things. Murderer, racist, child killer, are all names that have stuck with her throughout the years. And it turns out in this case, truth really can be scarier. than fiction and that Susan Smith's crimes will continue to haunt the small town of Union, South Carolina, forever. Hey, everybody. It's Colin here. Sorry to be recording on my iPhone, but I'm editing this episode from El Paso.

Courtney is back. Actually, she's in Houston. She's not in Austin. But I'm so glad that you all are out there listening to our show. And we couldn't be happier to have such a large family of true crime fans joining us every week for these episodes. I just want to give a shout out to our new patrons from this week. Danny Mongeen, Corey, Oracle, Miss Megan 717, Aaron Bounds, Kelly Oz, Jenna, Will Quillen, Richard Welton, Jana Kim, Schofield, Sherry Taylor, Crystal Beattie, Nicole Medling, Jennifer Britt, and Jocelyn Keller.

Wow, that is an incredibly large community. We are growing every single day. You're missing out on the fun on a Patreon. If you're not a patron yet, you can sign up by just going to Patreon.com and searching for murder in America. As always, be sure to follow us on Instagram at Murder in America. We post photos from the cases. We go a little bit deeper into the story and help to illustrate the case to all of you listening. You can actually see the photos of the perpetrators, the victims.

It's a nice way to tie the bow after you listen to these stories. But anyways, y'all, we're back next week with another amazing episode. We have some crazy, crazy stories coming up. I'm actually here in El Paso shooting an episode for my paranormal YouTube channel, the paranormal files about Richard Ramirez. If you didn't know, Richard Ramirez is from here in El Paso. And boy, oh boy, have we dug up some dirt on the night soccer?

But anyways, everybody, thank you again so much. We're going to be back next week. And the family just grows wider and larger every single day. We can't thank y'all enough. And keep asking that same old question. The dead don't talk. Or do they? See you next week, everybody.