Murder In America - EP. 60 NEW JERSEY - The Family Annihilator That Got Away: JOHN LIST

Episode Date: April 5, 2022

A family, slaughtered. A mother, murdered. And a crime left unsolved for 18 years. This is the brutal story of bible-thumping family annihilator JOHN LIST. And you're listening, to MURDER IN AMERICA! - Get 10% off of your first month of professional mental health help by using this link: https://betterhelp.com/MIA - Upgrade your cat's cat food with CAT PERSON! Get 40% off your order and FREE SHIPPING by going to https://catperson.com/STATE and use code "STATE" at checkout! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Life is a journey. I know this. I think we all know this. Some days feel good and other days feel absolutely overwhelming. Whatever's keeping you up at night, it's easy sometimes to feel like you have to figure it all out on your own. But the truth is, nobody has all the answers. And no journey should be taken alone.

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by utilizing disturbing audio and sound effects. Trigger warnings from the stories we cover may include violence, rape, murder, and offenses against children. This podcast is not for everyone. You have been warned. It's November 7, 1971 in Westfield, New Jersey. Father of three, John List, had just spent the afternoon murdering off his family one by one. When he was finished, he looked down

at his nice suit that was now covered in his children's blood. John cared a lot about his appearance, and he didn't like being dirty, so he went upstairs, washed himself off, and changed into a new suit. He had almost everything in order for his escape. The last thing he had to do was write a letter to his pastor, a confession, if you will. So once he was dressed, John grabbed a pen and paper and sat down at the dining room table. Dear Pastor Rewinkle, I am very sorry to add this additional burden to your work. I know that what I have done is wrong from all that I have been taught and that any reasons that I might give will not make it right.

But you are the one person that I know that, while not condoning this, will at least partially understand why I felt I had to do this. One, I wasn't earning anywhere near enough to support us. Everything I tried seemed to fall to pieces. True, we could have gone bankrupt and maybe gone on welfare, but that brings me to my next point. knowing the type of location that one would have to live in, plus the environment for the children, plus the effect of them knowing they were on welfare, was just more than I thought they could

and should endure. I know that they were willing to cut back, but this involved a lot more than that. Three, with Pat being so determined to get into acting, I was also fearful as to what this might do to her continuing to be a Christian. I'm sure it wouldn't have helped. Four, also, with Helen not going to church, I knew that this would harm the children eventually in their attendance. I had continued to hope that she would begin to come to church soon. But when I mentioned to her that Mr. Jutsi wanted to pay her elders a call, she just blew up and stated that she wanted her name taken off the church rolls. Again, this could only have given an adverse result for the children's continued attendance.

So that is the sum of it. If any one of these had been the condition we might have pulled through, but this was just too much. At least I'm certain that all have gone to heaven now. If things had gone on, who knows if that would be the case. Of course, mother got involved because doing what I did to my family would have been a tremendous shock to her at this age. For, knowing that she is also a Christian, I felt it best that she'd be relieved of the troubles

of this world that would have hit her. After it was all over, I said some prayers for them all, from the hymn book. That was the least I could do. Now for the final arrangements, Helen and the children have all agreed that they would prefer to be cremated. Please see to it that the costs are kept low. For mother, she has a plot at the Frankenmeath Church Cemetery. Please contact Mr. Herman Schellis. He's married to a niece of mothers and knows what arrangements are to be made. She always wanted Reverend Herman Zellander, of Bay City to preach the sermon, but he's not well. Also, I'm leaving some letters in your care.

Please send them on and add whatever comments you think appropriate. Also, I don't know what will happen to the books and other personal things, but to the extent possible, I'd like for them to be distributed as you see fit. Some books might go into the school or church library. Originally, I'd planned this for November 1st, All Saints Day, but travel arrangements were delayed. I thought it would be an appropriate day for them to get to heaven. As for me, please let me be dropped from the congregation rolls.

I leave myself in the hand of God's justice and mercy. I don't doubt that he is able to help us, but apparently he saw fit not to answer my prayers the way I had hoped that they would be answered. This makes me think that perhaps it was for the best as far as the children's souls are concerned. I know that many will only look at the additional years that they could have lived, but if finally they were no longer Christians, what would have been gained? Also, I'm sure many will say, how could anyone do such a horrible thing? My only answer is it isn't easy and was only done after much thought.

One more thing. It may seem cowardly to have always shot from behind, but I didn't want any of them to know, even at the last second, that I had to do this to them. John got hurt more because he seemed to struggle longer. The rest were immediately out of pain. John probably didn't consciously feel anything either. Please remember me in your prayers. I will need them whether or not the government does its duty as it sees it. I'm only concerned with making my peace with God, and of this I am assured because of Christ dying even from me. P.S. Mother is in the hallway in the attic, third floor. She was too heavy to move. Signed John List. After signing the letter, John put it next to the gun and ammunition he used to murder his family. Next, wanting to impede the smell of decomposition, he turned the thermostat down to 50 degrees.

As the cool air rushed through the home, John walked room by room, turning on every light in the house, except for the lights in the ballroom, where his four family members lay dead. He did so because he didn't want the nosy neighbors poking their heads. heads in, wondering why the house was so dark and still. To deter the neighbors even further, John walked over to the stereo, which was wired to the home's intercom system, and he put it on a classical music station, turning up the volume as high as it could go. The classical music blared through the home while John ran through a mental checklist. It was almost time for him to go in the run, to leave his life behind forever. But first, he was hungry. So he decided to make himself

a sandwich. He took his time eating it, knowing that life would never be the same after he walked out the front door. He had a long journey ahead of him. Little did he know that journey would last him 18 years until the law would finally catch up to him. This is the story of family annihilator John List. I'm Courtney Brown and I'm Colin Brown and you are listening to Murder in America. In his sandwich, John List walked out of his home in Westfield, New Jersey, leaving his five dead family members behind. Authorities wouldn't discover their bodies for another month, leaving him plenty of time to go on the run, find a new home, and eventually start a new family.

The search for the family annihilator would become one of the biggest manhunts in United States history. But before we get into John's 18 years on the run and his eventual capture, let's take a look into his past and the events that led up to November 7, 1971. the day he murdered his entire family. John List was born on September 17, 1925, to parents John and Alma List. Interestingly enough, John's grandparents emigrated from Germany, and his parents were second cousins, something that apparently wasn't too uncommon at the time.

The couple raised John in a strict religious household in Bay City, Michigan, where they lived with other German immigrants. His mother worked as a nurse, and his dad worked at a general store. And although they didn't make a ton of money, John Sr. worked hard and put a lot into savings, eventually saving up enough money to buy him and his family a 56-acre piece of land. Another huge part of John's upbringing was his faith. John Sr. and Alma raised John to be a devout Lutheran, something that would go on to play a huge role in this story.

On top of being very religious, John's parents were also overly protective of him. It's been said that Alma wouldn't never let John play with his friends. Even into his adolescent years, John was forbidden to play in the streets or go anywhere near the railroads. John would later say that his mother's tendency to be overbearing was because she was a nurse. And instead of making friends and having a normal childhood, John spent the majority of his upbringing hanging out with his parents, spending his free time reading and studying the Bible with his mom.

It wasn't until John was in high school, until he was finally able to gain some independence. For the first time in his life, Alma let him leave. the neighborhood by himself, and he even got a part-time job at the local library. According to the people that John grew up with, he was pretty unremarkable. When they described him, they used words like bookish, tall, religious, a good dresser, and a loner. There wasn't much to say about his personality. John didn't leave any lasting impressions. And one classmate even described him as, quote, just blending into the scenery. When John was in high school, World War II had just started.

and nearly half of his classmates dropped out to enlist. John wanted to follow in their footsteps, but his overbearing mother wouldn't allow it. But as soon as John graduated high school and was able to make decisions on his own, he decided to go against his mother's wishes and join the Army. He was sent to Louisiana, and because of his strict upbringing, John thrived in the Army. He found it easy to follow the rules and discovered the environment was not much different than life at home. A year into his service, his father, John List Sr., who was now in his 80s,

died from a chronic illness. Many people in the List family stated that John didn't seem to be affected much by the death of his father, but these would be some monumental years in John's life. Soon after the death of his father, in 1945, the army would send John off to Europe. It was nearing the end of the war, but during John's short time there, German troops captured his infantry patrol, and for a brief time, John List became a prisoner of war, held hostage by the Nazis. Within days, however, the war was over, and John was released. And because of this ordeal, John was actually awarded a bronze star. By April of that year, John was back in the United States,

and since the Army pays for education through the GI Bill, John decided to enroll into the University of Michigan. He wasn't sure which job he wanted to pursue, but his mother demanded he become an accountant. So that's what he does. During his college years, John didn't have much of a social life, but when he would write home to his mother, he acted like he was popular.

He wrote about many classmates who weren't actually his friends but would pretend that they were. One of these classmates was a man named Robert Clark, whose identity John would steal for the 18 years after he murdered his family. But even in college, John's mother retained her strong grip on his life. John didn't have any friends, and he barely hung out with anyone. In fact, the main person he hung out with in college was his mother. On Fridays, Alma would take the three-hour bus ride to her son's university and stay in a Lutheran-rooming. house on campus, and every time she visited, they would find a nice quiet spot around campus and spend hours reading the Bible. Not usually a college kid's idea of a fun Saturday. But Alma

wasn't the only person John hung out with in school. He was also part of Gamma Delta, a Lutheran student organization. He joined the Army Reserve Officer Training Corps, and during his senior year, he joined Delta Sigma Pi fraternity. But no matter what organization John joined, he never really seemed to fit in. And everyone that ever met John pretty much had the same things to say that he was completely unremarkable. But even though John didn't stand out amongst his peers, he was a really hard worker. By September of 1950, he not only graduated with a bachelor's degree in business, but he was also in an accelerated program to graduate with a master's degree as well. His ROTC participation earned him a commission as a second lieutenant in the Army Reserve. John also

started a position as a junior auditor at a company in Detroit, and he was making a respectable salary. John really had his life together, and Alma was extremely proud of all of his accomplishments. She was even more excited when she learned that John qualified as a certified public accountant, the profession that she always wanted him to pursue. But in the very year that John graduated from college, another war started, the Korean War. So within a few months of him starting his job at Ernst & Ernst, he was called to duty as a commissioned officer. For most of the time, during the Second Army stretch, the Army stationed him at Fort Eustace in Virginia. And this time, John found Army life more enjoyable.

He was able to dabble around in hobbies, like visiting Civil War battlefields, one of his favorite pastimes. John was a history buff. He loved to look at historical archives, study different schools of Army strategy, and he explored the logistics of transporting people during peaceful times and war times. John wasn't interested in the things that most young men his age were interested in. He found dating women to be difficult. Not that he never went out on dates, but he found dating to be more of a competition between men. Anytime there was an eligible girl, every man flocked to her trying to win her over, and John was never aggressive in his pursuits.

But that would all change in October of 1951, when he and his friend Ted, another junior officer, decided to go out for a night of bowling. It was a Saturday. The police was busy, and the men were having a great start to their night. The night would only get better when they noticed two beautiful women in the lane next to theirs. They were sisters, Jean and Helen, and they weren't very good at bowling, so the men decided to show off a bit, hoping to impress them. And it worked.

Before long, the four young adults were striking up flirty conversations. In hindsight, I'm sure Jean wished that she never brought her sister to the bowling alley. Helen didn't even want to go out that night, but Jean insisted. But Jean could have never known that the friendly military man in the lane next to them would go wanted to murder her sister decades later. But John and Helen's love story didn't start that night at the bowling alley. In fact, John originally took an interest in Jean, Helen's sister. But as they talked, John quickly discovered that Jean was married with children and that he didn't have a chance. By that point, his friend Ted had already asked out Helen. John was annoyed that he missed his chance

on a date, but he wasn't very aggressive in his pursuit, so he let Ted have Helen. Helen agreed to go out with him, even though she wasn't really looking to date anyone at the time. You see, her late husband Marvin, whom she was married to for 10 years, had died in Korea six months earlier. And because he died overseas, it took a long time for his body to be transported back for burial. In fact, the day before she met John and Ted, Helen had just had her late husband's funeral. Helen was nervous to start dating again, but she had been a widow for six months now. She figured that it was the perfect time to put herself out there and have a little fun. After a few dates, however, Helen figured out that Ted was married with children, so she quickly ended the relationship.

Maybe that's a sign I shouldn't start dating again, Helen thought. But a few days later, she found herself pleasantly surprised when she got a phone call. It was John List, the other man at the bowling alley. John had heard that she and Ted didn't work out, so he decided to shoot his shot and ask Helen out. A few days later, the two would go on their first date, completely unaware that this was the start of a disastrous relationship. John and Helen quickly fell in love, and she was impressed by all of his accomplishments. Not only was John a respected military man, but he was also a college graduate with a good amount of money, which Helen liked.

And John really liked Helen as well. She was his first real relationship, and over the next few dates, he learned a lot about her. Helen was born in Greensboro, North Carolina, on New Year's Day in 1925, and she was the third of five siblings. From what we could find, Helen had a pretty normal upbringing. But like a lot of young girls, she soon became eager to leave home and find a husband. Helen was just 16 years old when she married her first husband, Marvin Taylor. A year into that marriage, the couple became pregnant with their daughter Brenda. But Helen and Marvin's relationship was far from perfect. When Marvin was sent out to Korea for the war, Helen and Brenda picked up their lives and moved

there with him. But rather than stay with his family, Marvin spent most of his nights out at the bars having fun. Helen was unhappy with her situation and things only got worse when her health started to rapidly decline. She got so sick, in fact, that military officials had to airlift her and her daughter back to the United States for testing. It was here when she found out she had contracted an STD, syphilis, to be exact. Now, when you don't get treated for syphilis, it can have have really negative effects on your body. But Helen had no reason to believe that she got an STD because she had remained faithful throughout their marriage. So with this diagnosis, it was clear that her husband Marvin was the unfaithful one. And unfortunately for Helen, because she went so

long without treatment, her syphilis turned into muscle atrophy. Helen felt as if she had a lot of baggage. When she met John, her illness was still very much a big part of her life. And on top of that, she was a widow with a nine-year-old daughter, but John didn't seem to mind. He liked Helen, and her past didn't change those feelings. The two fell in love quickly, and their relationship moved fast, but that's not to say that John and Helen wouldn't have their own issues. John was more of a passive guy, and Helen was described by Minnie as a hothead. When the two would argue Helen would tell John that her late husband was much more of a man than he was, and constantly compared him to Marvin. Helen was also known to be a bit controlling. Almost immediately after

the two started dating, Helen was getting ready to get married and start a family. Something Something that John just wasn't quite ready for. With this being his first real relationship, he wanted to take things a little slower, but Helen was going to make sure she got what she wanted. Shortly after they had sex for the first time, Helen lied to John and told him that she was pregnant. Back in the 1940s, having children out of wedlock was very frowned upon, especially for a devout Lutheran. So John felt as if he had no other choice, but he did have one condition for Helen if they were

to marry. She would have to become a Lutheran and involve herself in their church, something that Helen was happy to agree to, but it's safe to say she wasn't aware of just how overzealous John was in his faith, a fact she would go on to learn the hard way. The couple would tie the nod on December 1st, 1951, and shortly after, John would adopt Helen's daughter Brenda as his own. They were a happy family, but Helen knew it wouldn't be long until she would have to break the news that she wasn't actually pregnant. But to her surprise, John wasn't even upset when she told him. At that point, he was just excited to be married.

Alma, John's mother, however, was not so thrilled about their marriage. She didn't think that the two were a good match, and she wholeheartedly believed that her son deserved better. She didn't like the fact that Helen was a widow with a child of her own. It also bothered Alma that John didn't come around as much once they started dating. She was used to being the number one woman in his life,

and she always had control over him and his decisions. But now that a new woman was in the picture, Alma had lost some of that control. Throughout this entire story, Alma and Helen never really get along, even when Alma moves in with the family years later. But as for now, Helen and John are newlyweds, and from the outside looking in, they seem to have a great marriage. After the war ended in 1954, John would return back to his job at Ernst & Ernst, near Detroit, Michigan, where again he was making decent money. A year later, on January 8, 1955, the couple would welcome their first child, Patricia a list. The birth of Patricia was a happy time for everyone. John was proud of his job and his growing

family. Helen was over the moon about her new baby. Brenda, who was now 13, was excited to have a baby sister, and Alma even started treating Helen nicely for the first time ever. Life got even better for the List family when John found an even better job at the Sutherland Paper Company in Kalamazoo, Michigan. This job paid a lot more than his last, and the couple was finally making enough money to start saving up for a house, which they needed because their family was growing. Later that year, Helen became pregnant with their second child, John Frederick List, and this pregnancy was a lot harder for Helen. You see, she had a history of miscarriages, and although her previous birth was successful, Helen's health wasn't the best, so her doctor recommended that she focused

on resting. Because of this, Helen spent most of her pregnancy lying in bed, and once her son was born, her mental health started to worsen, most likely due to postpartum depression. If you remember from earlier, one of the reasons John agreed to marry Helen was because she promised to become a member of the Lutheran Church. So one of John's first tasks, once they moved to Kalamazoo, was to find a good Lutheran church in town. John quickly found one that he liked, and within a year of attendance, they made him their treasurer.

And Helen kept her into the deal as well. Every Sunday, she and her two young children would sit with John in the front pew, never missing a service. John felt proud to have his attractive wife and growing family at church every week, and he liked the respect him and his family got from their community. But Helen wasn't as happy about her involvement in the congregation. By 1958, she and John had their third and final child, Frederick Michael. And although she loved her baby, this pregnancy was even harder than the last.

Even after he was born, Helen had a hard time leaving the house. But John still expected her to come to church every Sunday. And it's around this time when we start seeing a lot of conflict within their marriage. John was strict in his faith, and he cared a lot about appearances. He wanted to be the model family, wearing their Sunday best in the front pews. But Helen didn't share those same beliefs. In her mind, getting her and the three children dressed and ready for church every week was tiring, especially given her mental health.

Her idea of a perfect Sunday morning was sleeping in and making a nice breakfast with her family. It seems like when Helen agreed to become Lutheran, she didn't realize just how devout her husband really was. This podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp. People don't always realize that physical symptoms like headaches, teeth grinding, and even digestive issues can be indicators of stress. And let's not forget about the endless doom scrolling, sleeping too little, sleeping too much, under-eating and overeating.

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Had nearly perfect attendance at their church in the beginning, but as her mental health worsened, she started going less and less. She quickly became tired of the Sunday routine, and after a while she would refuse to go. This made John upset, but as we've seen throughout our story, he was a very passive guy. He didn't yell and scream when life wasn't going his way. Instead, he usually bottled it up. On the days when Helen would skip, John would get the kids perfectly dressed, not a hair out of place, and he would bring them to church. He even made Helen's daughter Brenda go as well. Even though when Brenda saw that her mom didn't have to go, she stopped going as well. After all, she was nearing 17 years old at the time. Luckily for her, she would make it out of the list

home before all hell would break loose. But as for now, John felt as if his family was slowly falling apart. Religion was the most important thing in his life, and he knew that God and the churchgoers were judging him now that his wife stopped attending. At least for now, he had control over his children, and he prayed every day that they wouldn't. stray away from God like their motherhead. Helen's physical and mental health continued to worsen, and it started to affect her life more than just on Sundays. The weekdays were hard as well. When John left for work every day, Helen had to care for her three young children and teenager all by herself. Helen was overwhelmed, and to cope with these stressors, she began drinking. But this seemed to only

make things worse. Helen was prescribed medication, which included tranquilizers, and the medicine did not mix well with her new drinking habits. In fact, it made her depression even worse. During this time, John would often come home from work to find the kids by themselves unattended to. He would have to change their diapers and make dinner because Helen wasn't able to get out of bed. But before we make any judgments against Helen and her parenting, I think it's important to consider the fact that depression, specifically postpartum, can be debilitating. Helen loved her children. And yes, most days her mental health affected her parenting. But we never know the severity of what people are going through until we walk in their shoes. Helen knew that her husband judged her. She knew that the church

members had been whispering about her absent, and she even noticed the concerned and watchful eyes of the neighbors. One neighbor said about the List family, those children didn't seem to have a mother, but they had the most expensive clothes in the neighborhood. The playpen alone must have cost more than $100. Well, most families keep playpenes in their home to keep an eye on their kids. Helen would sometimes put the playpen in the driveway, leaving her children outside, unattended for hours. Helen felt the weight of the world on her shoulders. Being a stay-at-home mom to four children when she could barely get out of bed was just too much. And as Helen's condition worsened, she started to resent the person closest to her, her husband, John. Helen felt that John

cared more about work in the Lutheran Church than he did about helping her out with the kids. During John's busy work days, Helen would often call him and ask if he could come home to help around the house. Luckily, his job at the paper company was flexible, and John John was able to come home throughout the day, as long as he finished his work, and he took advantage of this, and he took advantage of this, often going home to help change diapers when Helen needed him. But John always dreaded getting those phone calls. Every time he had to leave work, he knew his peers were judging him. John didn't like having his coworkers know that there were problems at home. He didn't want them to know that his wife resented him.

But it was clear to a lot of people in town that Helen wasn't stable. Brenda, her daughter, even recognized that her mother was spying. spiraling, saying, quote, mom was really boozing it up. She kept saying that she couldn't forget Marvin and that John was nothing compared to him. She was on heavy doses of medication. Daddy couldn't control her, end quote. Members of their congregation attempted to call Helen wanting to help in any way they could, but she wasn't interested in talking to them. John didn't know what to do. He even tried buying her expensive presents to make her happy, but that too didn't work. And it's strange how at this point in our story, you kind of feel bad for John List. He was working hard to provide

for his family, all while taking care of their four children because his wife couldn't. It was said by many for years John played the role of both mother and father, but those feelings of empathy quickly leave when you're reminded of what he does to his family later on in our story. John and Helen's children, Patty, John, and Frederick would eventually grow up and become a little more independent, making Helen's job a little easier. Life for John, however, was only getting more stressful. When he first started his job at the paper company, his employers liked him. They even described John as a neatly dressed man, a polite man. He always wore a hat, walked erect, and kept his clothes pressed and his shoes shined. They said he had a very good

appearance, seems to be well-adjusted, a very capable person with a good personality. And although they liked John as a person, and they valued his accounting skills, they thought he lacked managerial skills. Then, on October 8, 1959, another company merged with the business. This change meant that they would have to lay a lot of people off, with John List being one of them. He was devastated and embarrassed. For a man that cared a lot about his appearance, unemployment was just not a good look. Luckily though, his employer was nice enough to let him stay at the company until he found another job. But John soon discovered that him getting laid off was a blessing in disguise. While searching for a new job, a rising company called Xerox reached out, and they offered him $5,000 more than his previous job.

Xerox's success was skyrocketing, and they spent a lot of time searching for hardworking employees. The company, headquartered in Rochester, New York, offered John $12,000 a year, which today is worth around $113,000. John, of course, accepted the offer and started working there in 1961, and this job would change everything, in ways both good and bad. Now, John had more money for him and his family. They could finally purchase a home, something they always wanted. But on the downside, it also meant that they had to move states. John's schedule was less flexible, and he worked a lot more hours. At his last job, John was able to leave and help Helen when she was having a depressive episode,

but he wasn't allowed to do that here. Helen would have to take care of things on her own, but the job was worth it, especially when John found himself making $25,000 a year with bonuses, which again equates to around 235,000 today. John List was sure to thank God for the unexpected blessing, but little did he know this money would later cause his downfall. One of the family's first big purchases was a ranch house in a New York suburb, and for the first time in years, Helen was excited about the future.

Jean, her sister, had noticed the change right away. Helen seemed to be happier, especially after she would make an expensive purchase. She told Jean that people around town had even started to treat her differently due to their money. Life was good for Helen. She and John's relationship had even started to improve as well. With their influx of money, the couple was able to afford babysitters, giving them much more time to go on dates and rekindle their relationship. Their love had improved so much. Helen had even started going to church with the family again, which made John really happy. But he also couldn't ignore the fact that his wife's happiness was based solely on the fact that John had a good job and their

financial status had improved. This thought would stick with him throughout our story. But in the meantime, the List family was living large. One year, John saved up on enough vacation time and took Helen to Europe, leaving the children home with Helen's mom. The couple visited Ireland, England, and lastly, Germany, where John's parents had immigrated from. He was able to show Helen his family history, and the couple really enjoyed their time together. After that first trip to Europe, John and Helen didn't take any more vacations abroad. Instead, they took their family vacations to spend time with Jean, Helen's sister. But it was during these vacations that Jean recognized she wasn't a big fan of her sister's husband.

She couldn't quite put her finger on it. But one thing that annoyed her was that Helen had too strong of a personality for him. And quite frankly, he didn't know how to handle her. Another thing that Jean didn't like about John was that he had the weirdest way of reading the newspaper. It was a routine from which he never parted. Gene said, quote, He would start with the Sunday paper in a neat stack on the side of the chair. Then, he would carefully pick a section up by the margin of the pages to avoid getting ink on his fingers and read it again.

Every page top to bottom right to left like an automatic scanner. Then he'd put each section down, one by one, right side up, on the other side of the chair. When it got done, it would be lying there on the other side, perfectly rearranged as if no one had ever touched it, like it was new. End quote. Now, this weird fact about the way John Reed's newspapers isn't alarming. in and of itself. But it is interesting because it shows the kind of meticulous person John List was. He was very clean cut, neat, almost like a Patrick Bateman and American Psycho, and Gene was becoming suspicious of her sister's husband. This was a huge red flag for Gene, especially

considering the amount of money he was making. But she decided to let it go. But the one thing that bothered Gene the most was the cash flow problem. She thought that for an accountant, John was lousy with managing his money. On one occasion, he had taken her aside and asked if they could go to the bank to deposit a check. So Gene agrees and takes him to the bank, but when John tries to cash the check, the bank officials wouldn't let him unless Jean could guarantee it with her account. The check was for $40, not a tremendously big sum, a little more than $350 if they went to the bank today. Not everyone would be able to afford that kind of money, but still, Gene agreed. After all, John was an accountant and her brother-in-law, so she trusted him. A decision she would go on to regret, because right before, she would be able to afford. But still, Jean agreed. After all, John was an accountant and her brother-in-law, so she trusted him. A decision she would go on to regret, because right before she would Before the vacation ended, the check bounced. When Gene asked John about it, he denied anything happening with the check, saying the money was in his account and he would be able to take care of it. But Gene could tell that John was lying. And sure enough, he would never pay her back or bring up the subject ever again.

On the outside looking end, John looked like he had everything together, but there were problems at his workplace once again. The top executives at Xerox were not thrilled with his performance. In 1965, John was at the top of his game, receiving the high. highest title he would ever receive, director of accounting services. But he would not rise up any further. Years earlier, when they first hired him, Xerox was on a hiring splurge. The company was doing extremely well because their new photocopier had taken off. Now, with a break in sales, the executives could stop, take a breather, and examine their employees more closely. Upon doing so, they discovered

that some of their employees were not as promising as they expected. John List, being one of them. For the last few months, John could tell that his bosses didn't really like him. But rather than try and improve his performance, John blames his wife for his shortcomings. John was embarrassed of Helen, especially when he brought her around as co-workers. When they would have business gatherings, Helen would drink a bunch before, mostly because she didn't want to go in the first place. Once there, however, she socialized with everyone, and she loved the attention. Helen said what she wanted, not what she thought was appropriate to everyone around her. Her behavior at these gatherings always angered and embarrassed John, and she would often have to get a lecture on the ride home.

But John's co-workers actually liked Helen and thought of her as a genuine human who provided valuable input during the party conversations. It was her uptight husband that they weren't very fond of. John, however, did not see Helen that way. Instead, he saw a humiliating blemish on his career, a career that was quickly coming to an end. Like John's previous employer, he was let go from Xerox and forced to start looking for employment elsewhere. By the summer of 1965, the list family.

would face even more problems. Helen's health was declining. She had cerebral atrophy, and even though summer was her favorite season, Helen was bedridden for most of it. Meanwhile, John was busy sending out his resumes, looking for a new job. Fortunately, hiring recruiters could not see the real story behind the type words on his resume. Joe Sharkey said, quote, the resume by itself reflected one of the realities of his career problems. Xerox, like Sutherland before it was only too happy to send John off with a flowing endorsement to become someone else's problem." This time, the National Bank of Jersey City took the bait and they made John an offer of $25,000 per year, his best paying job to date. In addition, he also got the title that he and his mom had

always wanted, vice president and comptroller. Both John and Helen were delighted with his news, but the new job meant another move for the family. This time to Westfield, New Jersey. Towards the end of 1965, John visited Westfield to find a home for his family, and he had his eyes set on a vast estate called Breeze Noel, a Victorian house that stood on top of 22 acres of land. The land was beautiful, covered in tall trees with steria and honeysuckle, but the house on the land was even more beautiful. It was built in 1825 by a man named John Samuel Augustus Whitke. The mansion had 19 rooms, all with oak flooring. There were 10 fireplaces, some with marble, and some with hand-carved teak mantles. The five bathrooms spread throughout

the home meant that each of his family members could use the bathroom simultaneously. The ballroom was 33 feet long and 23 feet wide, and a stained glass skylight lit the furniture in the room. The mansion also had two living rooms, a dining room, a massive kitchen with a butler's pantry, and a laundry room. There were three floors, with five bedrooms off the second floor's long hall. The third room was its own servant's quarter. It was beautiful. The home that John had always wanted for and his family, but it was definitely a fixer-upper, being that it was nearly 150 years old in the 1960s. The mansion's assessed value was $100,000, but it was on the market for only $57,000. The List family knew that it would be a project, but they were willing to take it on,

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Now let's get back to today's story. Immediately after buying the house, John had a hard time making payments. Like we mentioned, he wasn't very good with his money, so he turns to the only person in his life willing to help. His mother, Alma. John asked Alma for $10,000 to help with the payments, which she agreed to under one condition. She wanted to live there with them at the estate.

At first, Helen couldn't stand the thought of living with her mother-in-law, but she loved the estate too much to say no. So they agreed to let Alma move in, giving her the entire servants' quarter on the third floor. The List family was very happy in their new home, and they loved the community of Westfield as well. It was an affluent town with a population of around 33,000. Before it was known for the brutal quintuple homicide at the Breaznell Estate, people knew it for its high school sports teams, that often won the state championships. Throughout the town, there were 51 police officers, 13 public schools,

and 14 churches. Among those churches was the Redeemer Lutheran, a church that John thought was the perfect fed. They were happy to live there. They worked at making the mansion their home. They had a dream to restore the estate to its original structure. Jean said that it was the happiest she had seen the couple in years. But almost immediately, the neighbors saw something was off. Unlike most new families that moved into town, they quickly realized that John did not like to socialize, and he made that clear to everyone. Wendy Devlin Gates recalled, how her father had stopped by the List's mansion when they moved in, and had brought them a baked pie to welcome them into the neighborhood. But when her dad knocked on the door to their home,

John answered by opening the door just a crack and coldly telling him, we don't socialize, before grabbing the pie out of his hands and slamming the door in his face. So much for love thy neighbor, but this wasn't the only time John was cold to the people and his community. When neighbors would wave at him, he pretended to not see them. When people would approach John, he would begin to walk in the other direction. Another interesting thing the neighbors picked up on was his meticulous way of mowing the lawn, but it wasn't the way he mowed the lawn that stood out to them. It was what he wore. Every time John would pull out the lawnmower, no matter what the weather was like, he wore a suit. Brad West, a friend of the boys who would

sometimes play ball in their front yard said, he was always dressed like that, always. It was always white shirt, dark suit, dark tie. Come hell or high water, summer, or winter. Other town residents noticed, too, not just the neighbors. Members of his church said that John treated the children like they were in reform school. It was clear that he wanted to have control over them, just like his mother controlled him. But as the children grew, he found it harder and harder

to control their interactions with the outside world. They went to public school every day, away from the watchful eyes of their father. They attended Sunday school. At one point, John became a co-leader of a Cub Scout troop. Van Hecky, a local teacher had witnessed John during the troop's annual Pinewood Derby,

where John seemed to be acting like a bully. Van Hecky said, It was just a fun event for the boys. Here's the Martinet, here's the Tin Horn Tyrant barking orders to a bunch of little kids. As if this event was an exercise and discipline. He was a methodical son of a bitch with an arrogance that most people don't possess, a right-wing nut, in my opinion, who stood out in a cosmopolitan town like Westfield. Although the family was happy with their new lavish lifestyle, the novelty would eventually fade.

And because all of their money was going towards renovations, Helen didn't have a lot to spend on her own. And by now, her mental and physical health was at an all-time low. Because of this, her church attendance became a problem once more. Helen didn't want to go, and this time she was much more adamant. She had even asked John to go to the church office and take her name off the roster. This request was horrifying to John. Not only was she spiraling, but now she wants to be completely removed from their church. And it was around this time when John started to complain a lot about how his family was drifting away from God.

And he wasn't just talking about Helen. He felt the same about his three children as well. But John was just being paranoid. His kids were very much still involved in the church. In fact, Patty sang almost every week in the church's choir. Almost all of John Jr.'s friends were from church, and Little Fred was a member of the confirmation class. On top of his growing paranoia about his family being damned to hell, John was having trouble in his work life again too. His new job did not last very long.

He only worked there for a year before they too let him go. Joe Sharkey wrote, what the job demanded was a person with a self-starting ability to seek out new businesses in the rapidly expanding suburbs around the old industrial cities of northern New Jersey. And while John was good at following directions and policy, he just did not have the talent and confidence to be a salesman. And with this termination, John did not receive any special treatment. The bank officials let him go without a grace period to look for another job. John knew he was in trouble and that there would be no way that they could live in their estate without a good paying job. John was so embarrassed about getting fired, in fact, that the only person he told was his mother. He kept it a secret from Helen and the children because telling them would mean they would think of him as a failure.

He'd only had that job for a year, and the kids were finally starting to adjust to their new life. Helen was already going through a lot with her illnesses, and John knew the news of his termination would only make her worse. So he stayed quiet, refusing to tell his family the truth. Every morning, John would shower, put on his suit, grab his briefcase and newspaper, and tell his family goodbye. pretending he was off to work each day. But instead of actually going to his job, John would drive to downtown Westfield, park his car near the train station, and sit for hours thinking about how his life had turned to shambles.

Depending on the weather, John would have his lunch either in the train station or outside in the park. This went on every single day for a good six months in 1967, leaving John a lot of time to figure out how he wanted to fix these problems. But instead of finding a new job, John's thoughts start to get dark, especially when it came time to pay the mortgage. Every month, John would have to use the power of attorney his mom gave him to take out money from her account, money that she had inherited from her late husband.

To make himself feel better about stealing from his mom, John convinced himself that these withdraws were part of his mother's loan and that he would pay her back once he was on his feet, but John would never keep that promise. six months of unemployment and spending his time at the train station every day, John finally found another job, although it was not ideal. He still had the title that mattered so much to him, vice president and comp troller with the American Photographic Company in New York City. But as fabulous as the title was, his salary was $12,000 less than his previous two jobs, and it definitely wasn't enough to pay his bills. But within a year, John had to find a new job because that job was

relocating. From there, things quickly went downhill. Helen was hospitalized again at Columbia, be a Presbyterian Medical Center in New York City. Her condition had gotten so bad that her own sister Jean suggested that John put her in an institution so she could get better care. But John was not going to allow that to happen. He was actually coming up with other plans for his wife and children. In September of that year, John felt the financial pressures even more. He had to take out a loan for $4,000, around $33,000 today at Suburban Trust Company and secured this with a lien on the house. But the money was just not enough, and there was imminent foreclosure in the family's future. The family's expenses were just too much, and at this point, his family

still had no idea that he had been fired in the first place. It's unclear whether or not they knew they were struggling at all. Wanting to keep up the charade, John started selling some of their antique furniture in order to pay the bills. Towards the end, the only remaining furniture included the kitchen table, chairs, file cabinets, and a desk. John sold everything, including the family's second car. He had even recently taken out a second mortgage on their home. And now, more than ever, John felt like a complete failure. He still didn't have a good paying job. They were behind on every bill, and now they barely had furniture. To make matters worse, John had to start driving the family's nine-year-old Chevy pickup that had a red sticker plastered on the windshield, indicating the vehicle

had failed the state motor vehicle inspection. John was humiliated, and he felt like he was no longer the respected, wealthy man that he once was. To make matters worse, his family was straying away from God. An incident would later occur that would solidify his belief. One morning at around the 3.30 a.m., John was sitting in the billiard room, unable to sleep because of the mounting stress. This was John's room, a place where he could go to have a minute alone and sit with his thoughts. There were photographs of his family that lined the walls, military and true crime novels along the bookshelves. John sat there in the early hours of the morning, wondering how everything had gone wrong. That day in particular was a really bad day. A few hours earlier,

John had got a call from the Westfield Police. His 16-year-old daughter, Patricia, had been taken into the station after police found her and her friends walking around after curfew, smoking cigarettes. The officers thought that no one should be walking around at that time, especially young girls. So they took her to the police station and called her parents. When John answered the phone, he was angry. Not only was his daughter participating in ungodly things, But now the police know that the List family wasn't perfect, something that bothered John.

He liked having a good reputation. John would arrive at the police station a little later, and his blood was boiling, which is a normal response considering he was woken up out of bed to get his daughter from the police station. But it was something else that the officers found strange. When John arrived past midnight to pick up his daughter, he was dressed in a suit and tie. There wasn't a wrinkle on his clothing, and they even smelled aftershay. on his skin, meaning that after John got the phone call, he showered, shaved his face, and put on a suit and tie. This was strange to them considering it was near one in the morning.

Patty would later tell her male friend that she was more scared of her father than she was the police. It was clear to everyone in the family that John had been acting differently the past few months. In fact, he had stopped talking to Patty entirely after the two had an argument about her ungodly friends. Patty was scared of her father, and when they arrived home that night, he made a big commotion, waking up everyone in the home, Helen, John Jr., Malma, Frederick, and Helen's mom, Eva, who was on an extended visit from North Carolina. But John didn't mind that they had guests over, and he continued to scream at his daughter, telling her over and over that she was going to hell, something that he had been telling his family a lot lately.

His 16-year-old was acting out, and he realized he was slowly losing control. He could no longer monitor his children's every move. He couldn't control who they hung out with, or how often they prayed, or read their and to him, they were leading themselves down a pathway straight to hell. John ended the night by calling Patty a slut in front of her entire family. Embarrassed and shocked, she ran up the stairs crying, tears running down her cheeks. Helen ran after her, attempting to calm her down, but her mother's words were not of much help. Hours later, John was now sitting in the billiard room, unable to sleep and ruminating in his dark,

disturbing thoughts. He was slowly coming to the realization that there was no way he and his family were going to recover. They had no money. They were up to their necks and unpaid bills, and he was convinced that his children were going to hell. So as John sat there, he started to consider his options. One in particular was to murder off his entire family. John thought about this a lot, every day, actually. And now more than ever, it seemed like the best option. But he also considered other options.

In his memoir, he would later write that he did consider keeping them alive, but that, quote, it would be difficult to get any kind of relief for the family from social services, or so I thought. I thought that a family couldn't receive help if the father were present. In any case, I thought that the family would suffer a permanently destructive traumatic blow. End quote. John also considered suicide, but then stated, quote, if I was to commit suicide considering this moral sin for the first time in my life,

I was certain that I would never get to heaven. And I definitely wanted all of us to be reunited. there." And it's interesting to me how John genuinely thought that suicide would send him to hell, but murdering his entire family and then asking for forgiveness afterwards would reunite them in heaven. Not really sure of the logic there. Another option that John considered was murdering only Helen.

In his mind, she was already suffering with her illnesses and she was pretty much helpless. But then, according to John, quote, if I kill only Helen because of her inability to help the rest of the family, I will cause an awful burden to fall on the children. It would scar them for life, and it might drive them away from the church. This would be unacceptable, end quote. So for months, John considered all of the options. Kill Helen, kill himself, or kill everyone, and reunite in heaven. To him, the answer was obvious. He had to kill them all. John would later write, quote, I know that it's wrong to kill. I admitted in my prayer, except in cases of self-preservation. and this is not such a situation.

Also, if I deliberately kill, can I be forgiven for sinning in such a deliberate manner? Eventually, I concluded that I could be forgiven if I sincerely repented and lived a life that would not cause any more harm to others. And with that, John List started planning the complete annihilation of his family. Hey, everybody, do not skip this.

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We have a lot of amazing patrons. We talk about it at the end of every episode. But we are seriously so thankful for everybody out there. Once again, if you don't follow our Instagram as well, it's at Murder in America. Same on Twitter. Anyways, sorry, didn't mean to be a little annoyance in the middle of the podcast, but I wanted to spread the word, and it's because of you people at home that were growing, and we cannot thank you enough. Anyways, let's get back to today's story. Weeks prior to the murders, John planned out everything meticulously.

He had even begun making ominous statements to his wife and children, asking them questions about whether they want to be buried or cremated. These questions were alarming, especially considering that their father had been acting strangely over the last few months. Why was he asking his children these questions? Aren't parents supposed to die before their kids? Patty confided in a friend that her dad was making her anxious with these questions about her death, but she clearly had no idea that he was actually planning out her murder. John originally had planned to kill his family on November 1st, All Saints Day. But for whatever reason, the killings got delayed, which brings us to November 9th, 1971.

It was a Tuesday, and John waved his children goodbye as they went off to school. He knew that this would be their very last day on earth. Once the kids were gone, the only people left in the home were Helen and Alma, John's mother. The house was quiet. The only noise was coming from Helen making breakfast in the kitchen. A little after 8.30 a.m., the milkman stopped by on his routine delivery to the list household. But as he approached the home, he saw a note from John that read, Please stop deliveries until further notice. My family and I are taking a long vacation.

Like we mentioned, John planned this day out meticulously, even considering the milkman. Once John watched him leave the property, he opened his filing cabinet, grabbed his small 22-caliber weapon and walked into the kitchen. Helen was making tea, wearing her bathrobe, something that always annoyed John. He didn't think it was appropriate for her to walk around the home in pajamas. It's unclear whether or not Helen even saw John in the kitchen that morning, but he eerily watched her as she pulled the whistling kettle off the stove and sat down at the kitchen table. John then slowly walks up behind her, standing a little off to the left. He was calm as he raised the gun up, about 18 inches from her head. It was time, and in his mind this needed to be done.

Helen sensed that someone was behind her and she turned her head ever so slightly. Helen didn't see it coming and as the bullet entered her skull she slowly slumped down onto the floor. As he stared down at the amount of blood pouring from his wife's body, John was pleased with himself, knowing that she had died quickly. But just to be sure, John fired a couple more shots at his wife's corpse. The air in the room was filled with the smell of gunpowder and blood. And now it was time to take care of mother, who was in the servants' quarters on the third floor. lore. John knew he needed to act fast, so he ran up the stairs and barged in the room without knocking. His mother, Alma, was standing in the quarter's small kitchen area waiting by the toaster.

What was that noise downstairs? She asked him. It was clear that Alma had no idea that her son had just murdered Helen. According to John, he replied by saying he wasn't sure what the noise was, and that he came upstairs to ask her about it. Then, John suggests that Alma look out of the window to see if she could find the source of the sound. So Alma does. But as she peered out of the window, John walked over to his mom, aimed the gun at her head,

and pulled the trigger. Alma must have turned her head at the last minute because instead of shooting her from behind, like John claimed, Alma died from being shot point-blank above her right eye. She died instantly, but again, John shot her a few more times

to make sure. Alma's blood started to pull on the checkerboard kitchen tile. The last thing she saw before her death was her son holding a gun to her head. John originally planned to drag his mother's body downstairs, but he soon realized that she was too heavy. Instead, he placed her on a nearby rug

and dragged her through the hallway towards the small storage room. It wasn't even a room, just a small opening where they stored the home's water tank, and it definitely wasn't big enough to fit a human, but it would have to do. John crammed Alma's body into the small space and he tried his best to clean the blood on the floor. Afterward, John walked back downstairs to take care of Helen's body. He grabbed her by the feet and dragged her out of the kitchen and into the family's ballroom,

leaving a long trail of blood throughout the home. John then grabbed three sleeping bags, laid them out, and put his wife face down on top of them. Looking down, John noticed that he was covered in blood. So he went to their bedroom and began a group. aggressively wiping his hands on their bed sheets. It was here when John became sick. With blood still covering his body, he ran to the restroom and vomited,

leaving a bloody handprint on the toilet. It's unlikely that John got sick because he was disturbed by his actions. It's more likely that he was disgusted by the blood. Afterward, John showered, cleaned himself up, and put on a brand new suit. He anxiously peeked out of their windows and was relieved to see that the gunshots hadn't alerted

any of the neighbors. The day was going perfectly, just like he had planned. After John was clean of his wife and mother's blood, he realized that he had an appointment scheduled at 10 o'clock with Burton Goldstein, an insurance agent. John knew that he was going to miss the appointment, so he called and canceled, saying his wife was ill. The next box he needed a check had to do with his children. John knew that after he murdered his kids, their schools would be calling and wondering where they were, so he sat down to the kitchen table and wrote three separate notes. Westfield High School, our daughter Patricia is a student in the 11th grade at Westfield High. She will be out a few days since we had to make an emergency trip to North Carolina. We left after the school was closed so I'm sending this to you to

explain her absence. John E. List. The next one was to his boys school. Roosevelt Jr. High. Our sons John and Fred, 9th and 8th grades, attend Roosevelt. They will be out for several days as we had to make an emergency trip to NC. This happened after the school was closed. John E. List. The last letter was to the KMV insurance office where Patty and Fred worked. He didn't want their employers asking any questions. After writing the letters, John was sure that his crimes would be covered up, at least for a while, giving him plenty of time to go on the run. Now, all John had to do was wait for his children to come home from school.

In the meantime, still wanting to keep up his family's appearance, John decided to go outside and rake the lawn. Afterwards, he made himself a sandwich. So far, the day was going just as planned. That was until the phone rang a little past noon. It was Patty, and she told her dad that she was going to come home early. after school. She was supposed to go to work that day, but she wasn't feeling well, so she asked if her dad could come and pick her up. John agreed and drove over to Westfield High. Patty had no idea when she

hopped in the car that her father had just murdered her mom and grandma, and she definitely didn't know that she was next. The car ride home was silent. When they pulled up to the house, John ran inside ahead of her and quickly grabbed his gun. He hid inside of the laundry room behind a door, waiting for Patty to enter the home. Once she did, he snuck up behind her, pointed the gun at his daughter's head, and pulled the trigger. Patty immediately dropped to the ground, having died without knowing her father was responsible. Like Helen, John grabbed Patty by her feet and dragged her into the ballroom alongside her mother. There was blood everywhere, including all over John. So he washed up again, changed into another suit, and then left the home to run some errands.

The first stop John made after driving into town was to the suburban trust company where he cashed an $85 check. Next, he went to the post office to mail some letters. The first was a letter requesting that the post office hold their family's mail for the next 30 days. He knew that if the neighbors saw their mail piling up, they would surely start asking questions. He considered everything in his elaborate plan to escape. And lastly, he mailed out the letters to his children. children's schools and place of work. Everything was beginning to come together. After this, John drove back to another bank and cashed a second check, this time for $200. But he needed more money. If he was going to go on the run and change his identity, he would need the extra cash.

So he made a final stop at his mother's bank, where they had a joint account. At 1.37 p.m., the teller led John back to the vault where he took the rest of his mother's savings. It was about $2,000. The teller noticed that John was acting strange, but he left the bank without raising any real suspicions. After draining the bank accounts, John returned back to his home where his mother, wife, and daughter lay dead. All that was left to do was murder his two sons. John Jr., the middle child, had just gotten to work at the KMV insurance office at around 3 p.m. John was known to be a very sweet boy who got along well with his coworkers. But once he got to work that day and noticed that his sister wasn't there, he became worried and called home. The two

two work together and Patty never called in sick. A secretary at KMV recalls listening in to John's phone call to his father, where he worriedly asks, what happened to Patty? John assured his son that everything was fine and that he will see him soon once he gets home. After the phone call, John List went to pick up his youngest son, Fred, from his job. Strangely enough, Fred, like Patty, told his employer that he had to leave work early. Now, John List claims that Patty and Fred called out of work on their own free will, which is strange because they never called out of work. A part of me thinks that John may have had something to do with this. He didn't want his children all coming home at once, because then he would have to murder them

one by one in front of each other, which could complicate his plan. The fact that each of his kids came home at separate times worked out perfectly, because then he could sneak up behind, kill them, and then wait for the next child to come home so he could repeat the process and luckily for him his plan was working accordingly after john picked up fred he drove him home and like he did with patty john quickly ran inside ahead of him fred was gathering his belongings as john assumed the position behind the laundry room door once fred stepped inside he started to take his coat off when all of a sudden his father emerged from behind and shot him in the head like the rest of his dead family members fred never saw it coming

and he died immediately john then repeated the same routine dragging his body into the ballroom alongside his sister and mom. By this point, there was a lot of blood in the home. John attempted to clean it off the laundry room floor, knowing that John, his other son, would be home shortly. But as he was doing so, John saw something that would cause him to panic. Outside, walking towards their home, was John, his other son. He had come home a lot earlier than anticipated. There are some varying accounts as to what John Jr. was doing in the hours before the murders. There are some sources out there that claim he was at soccer practice. Other sources say that John List actually went to the soccer practice. to watch his son. But researchers have concluded that this likely wasn't the case. There was the middle

of November in New Jersey, and the weather was just too cold to practice in, so it's assumed that John Jr. just came home a little early after work. Regardless, his unexpected arrival at their home caused John to panic. It was the first time throughout the day where his plan had deviated. And as John Jr. neared the home, John List quickly grabbed his gun and assumed his position behind the laundry room door. And it seems like John knew something was wrong. Maybe the fact that his sister didn't come to work made him suspicious, or maybe he heard someone scurrying in the laundry room as he approached the home. Whatever the reason was, John Jr. was cautious when opening the door. Unlike his siblings who just walked right in, John Jr. immediately looked over to find his father standing behind

the door holding a gun. And before he had time to react, John List was pointing a gun in his face, terrified, the 15-year-old turn to make a run for it as his father pulled the trigger. But instead of the bullet hitting his head, like John had anticipated, it actually hit him in the back as he tried to run away. John Jr. then used every last bit of strength to try and crawl away from his father, panicking. John List recklessly fired off shots into his son's body, but unfortunately, he wasn't dying. Unlike the rest of his siblings who died instantly, John Jr. was trying to get away after being shot multiple times. He even managed to get up on his knees before his father fired a fatal shot.

The events that took place inside of the list home that day were horrifying. But at least for the other four family members, they died quickly and never really knew what happened. But the death of John Jr. is by far the most disturbing part of this story. In those probably 30 seconds, he came to the realization that his father was trying to kill him, something that no child should ever have to face, and he put up a fight before John List ruthlessly, brutally took his life. As you've probably concluded by now, John is an evil human being, and he's also a coward. When he would later write about murdering his son, John claimed that, yes, John Jr. did struggle more than the others, but he said that

his son didn't feel any pain. It just took him a lot longer to die. But based on the evidence at the scene, This wasn't true. John Jr. spent the last agonizing moments of his life in tremendous pain as he watched his father unload a gun into his body. After John Jr. was dead, John List took his body into the ballroom and laid him next to the others. As John looked down at Helen, Patty, Fred, and John Jr., who were lying in dark red pools of of blood, he was pleased.

Yes, his plan didn't unfold exactly the way he had hoped, but it was done. He was free from their financial struggles, the judgments of his wife. And more importantly, in his mind, he had saved them from a true. eternal damnation. At least now, he was sure, they were all together in heaven. And he wholeheartedly believed that he would be reunited with them one day. But as for now, he needed to start his escape. It was here when John sat down at the kitchen table and wrote the confession to his pastor. The letter that we read at the beginning of our story. And the letter goes to show that John didn't feel any real remorse for his actions. In his mind, he was completely justified. He wrote multiple letters

that evening, some to Helen's sisters, one to his aunt, and even some to his business associates. And in every single one, he justified murdering his family, saying there was just no other option. After writing the letters, John makes a few calls, one to his pastor to let him know that he couldn't teach Sunday school for the next few weeks because they were taking an extended vacation in North Carolina. The second call was to one of Patty's friends in her drama club, letting her know that Patty wouldn't be making it to any rehearsals. John truly walked through every scenario, taking care of any loose ends that could affect his plan. John was smart, and he knew that as soon as investigators discovered his family's body,

he would be a wanted man. So to make it more difficult for them to track him down, John walked through his home, destroying every picture of his face. If they didn't have his photo, then maybe they would never find him. John then walks through the home, turning on every light to lessen the neighbor's suspicions.

He turns down the thermostat to keep their bodies cool. And lastly, he turns the home's intercom system to a classical music station. Everything was now perfectly lined up for his new life, for his new life on the run. Before leaving, John said a prayer over his family's bodies, grabbed his bag and $2,500 in cash, and he left, leaving his old life behind forever. Over the next few weeks, there were many whispers around town about the List family, but most of the whispers came from Patty's friends. It had now been nearly a month

since they had last seen her, and her vacation to North Carolina was only supposed to be for a few weeks. So on December 7th, exactly one month after the murders, a few of Patty's friends drive over to the list home to see if she had come back. Once they arrive, they see that the lights are on and that classical music is blaring throughout the home. This was strange because it was late at night. A neighbor nearby was sitting outside her home when she noticed the teenagers peeking through the windows. So she placed a call to the police, thinking that they were trying to break in. But she too had begun to suspect that something was wrong with the List family. Over the last few weeks, she had noticed that the lights never turned off, and one by one, they were

slowly burning out. Over at the List property, Patty's friends banged on the door, hoping that someone would answer. But no one ever came, so they decided to try and get in through an unlocked window. But as they began to open it, police sirens rang out in the distance. The teens quickly assured the cops that they were only there to check on their friend, who they hadn't heard from over the last month. The neighbor who had called the police then comes over and confirms that the List family hadn't been seen for weeks. It was clear to the officers that several people were concerned about the well-being of the family, so they decide to go in for a wellness check. Upon entering, however, the officers are hit with the unmistakable smell of decomposition. They cautiously

walk room to room until they hit the ballroom. and what they find will forever change the town of Westfield, New Jersey. There, lying on the floor in the shape of a cross were four deceased members of the List family, and it was clear by the level of decomposition that they had been dead for a while. Word spread quickly about the mass murder at the Breeze Null estate, and it wouldn't be long until the entire nation was on the lookout for John List. By that point, John List was long gone. He had a month-long head start to change his identity,

and escaped the police. Authorities would later find his car at the JFK airport, but they couldn't find any evidence that John had fled the country. It seemed as though he did that to throw them off. Investigators would spend the next few years looking tirelessly for the family annihilator, but to no avail. And then the case went cold for nearly two decades. Over the next 18 years, John lived in the shadows with a new identity, Robert Clark, the name of a boy he went to school with decades earlier. After fleeing New Jersey, John spent time in New York City. Then after a while, he moved to Denver. First, it wasn't easy for him to find work. His first job was as a fry cook in a hotel. But eventually, after a few years, John was able to cheat the system and somehow convinced a company to let him work as their accountant.

Life on the run wasn't that hard for John. He was used to being on his own. And his life now was a lot like his old life. He was making decent money as an accountant, and he even found a Lutheran church in Denver that accepted him with open arms. It was here at this church where John even met a woman, Dolores Miller, had no idea that Robert Clark was really a murderer who had annihilated his entire. family years earlier. She thought he was a good, hardworking man of faith. And in 1985,

the two would get married and move to Richmond, Virginia. After 18 years on the run, it's likely that John List thought he had gotten away with it. This life as the wanted John List was in the past. Now he had a new life, a new family. But one thing John wasn't aware of was that investigators were still working hard on his case. They hadn't forgotten about Helen, Alma, Patty, John Jr., and Fred. In fact, the FBI had been working with a man named Frank Bender, who was a forensic sculptor. Frank was known among law enforcement agencies for his ability to reconstruct the faces of decomposing bodies so that they could be identified. He could literally look at their bone structure and make an accurate replica of what they looked like before death, and he does all of it

using clay. The only problem was that the most recent picture they had of John was when he was 19 years old. All of the more recent photos were destroyed by John after the murders. But Frank was good at his job, so the FBI paid him to do an age bust of the family annihilator. When he was finished with his craft, Frank brought the 10-pound clay bust to authorities, and he told them, this is the guy you're looking for. Frank was sure of it. So on May 21st, 1989, the TV show America's Most wanted aired an episode about John List, the family annihilator, telling everyone to be on the lookout. They flashed images of the clay bust, encouraging viewers to call if they know anyone that looks similar. Strangely enough, John List and his new wife were among the 22 million viewers

tuned into the episode that night. John started sweating profusely as he watched his clay bust pop up on the screen. It looked exactly like him, but for whatever reason, his wife didn't make the connection. Luckily, though, another person that was tuned into the show that night was John List's neighbor. Upon seeing the bust, she couldn't believe her eyes. It looked identical to the man she knew as Robert Clark, but the resemblance wasn't the only thing that got her attention. In the episode, they mentioned that John List was likely in the United States working as an accountant and a regular at a church. The neighbor was shocked because Robert Clark matched that description to a tea. Unable to shake the thought, she quickly rushed over to her phone

and sent in the tip. Nine days later, on June 1, 1989, investigators were in Virginia knocking on Robert Clark's front door, but he wasn't home at the time. His wife, Dolores, however, was. They questioned her, and it was clear that she had no idea

who she was married to. Her world was shattered that day. When authorities revealed her husband's murderous past, the next stop investigators would make would be to John's accounting office. Just like his victims, John never saw the aggressors approaching, slowly from behind.

He was taken from his place of work and placed under arrest for the murder of his family. For someone who cared so much about his appearance, John was humiliated. Remember, he cared a lot about his appearance. The investigators, however, were celebrating. Finally, after 18 years on the run, John List had been captured, and it was time for him to face the court. John List would go on trial in 1990, nearly 20 years after he murdered his family. And still, while on trial, he showed no remorse for his actions. His defense lined up psychiatrists, who determined his actions could have been influenced by PTSD from his army tours. But the jury showed him no mercy, and he was sentenced to five life sentences in a New

Jersey prison. In 2008, after serving 18 years of his sentence, John would die from pneumonia complications at the age of 82. No one ever claimed his remains. After all, he murdered everyone that ever loved him. Family annihilator cases are always the ones that have that have stuck with me throughout the years. This story in particular is one that comes to mind when people ask me about my favorite cases. Because to me, the cases that are the hardest to understand are the ones that stick out.

How can a father who helped raise his family just flip a switch and kill off his family one by one? John's reasoning for murdering his family was so that they could all go to heaven, and he hoped that by living a good life afterwards and repenting for his sins could one day be re-reviewed. But I have a feeling, in 2008, when John passed away, he wasn't reunited with them. Instead, I'm sure he's spending the rest of eternity paying for his sins.

Thou shalt not kill. That commandment is one of the ten commandments that Christians claim God himself revealed to Moses by inscribing them on a tablet atop Mount Sinai. But this commandment isn't the only condemnation of murder that one can find in the Bible. Take the passage of Matthew 521, for example, which states, you shall not murder, and whoever murders will be liable to judgment. Clearly, according to this passage, John's crimes would open him up to biblical judgment and wouldn't have been easily forgiven. There's also Exodus 237, which states, Do not kill the innocent and righteous, for I will not acquit the wicked. John's family members were indeed both innocent and righteous, which in turn would make John wicked and would make him

ineligible for acquittal. Or there's James 213, which states, judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. For a man who is so obsessed with the Bible, John List certainly chose to ignore certain passages and scriptures when he committed his rejection of one of God's ten commandments, Thou shall not kill. Also, there's Leviticus 2417, which states, whoever takes a human life shall surely be put to death. It's interesting to note that according to most biblical standards and passages, if John List had committed a murder in biblical times, he most likely would have been given a death sentence and would have been put to death for his crimes. But in our modern justice system, he was simply handed multiple life sentences and was allowed to wait for death to come find him

while he sat in his prison cell. Like we said before, although he claimed that he was excited to rejoin his family in heaven, we here at the podcast are pretty sure that that's not where John ended up, regardless of how many times he apologized for his sins. If I were the devil, I would have been excited for John List to come join me down below. I'm sure Satan was making John's bed sharpening his torture tools and counting down the days until John would eventually make his way down to hell. And I feel like there's a special circle of hell reserved for those who kill.

Even though John felt like killing his family would eventually be forgiven and he would be allowed to join them all up at the pearly gates, I'm more inclined to believe that after his death, he was pulled down in a more descending direction to finally face the true eternal nightmare that he had feared his entire life. Growing up, my mom was always the best at handling sticky, stressful situations.

I mean, we have so many crazy family memories, so many things that stick out to me, so many trips that we took and just funny moments. I mean, I remember specifically, One just crazy time when we had jet skis and we took them out. We had rented them for the day and we took them out on this lake. And somehow something got on the engine of the jet ski. Mine stalled.

My dad stalled. And my mom and sister had to come rescue us because we floated to shore on the other side of the lake. We've got some hilarious pictures from that day. But it's just one of those memories that I don't want to let die. And aura frames can help keep those moments alive. So basically an aura frame is like a virtual frame that can dispelior. photos and videos from anywhere. You can upload to the frame, you can share in new photos, you can constantly change the library, and it's really a perfect gift for a family member

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Thank you for tuning in to this week's episode of Murder in America. Like we said before, we have some crazy cases coming up in the next couple of weeks. This one is a mind-bending story. It's crazy that John List was on the run for so long, and he was brought in once again by America's Most Wanted. Crazy that that show actually did so much good for the world. I want to give a shout-out to our new patrons this week, people that include Jesse Hayden, Andrea Quignonis, Tatum Morgan, Machiavelli, and Cheese, Ashley, Emerson Walker,

Aria, Brooklyn Knox, Jeanette Co, Sarah Edwards, Tiffany McEllewich, Taya, Paul Rendazzo, Sarah Jamie, Craig Lister, Fernando Ruiz, Carson Walker, Malachi Moreno, Alex Marston, Sina, Adam Crago, Jamie, Tiffany Childers, Jennifer Eliza, Gene Thresher, Sarah Brislin, Tanya Payne, Kathleen Edinger, Jennifer King, Demetria Moschimer, and Dana Hutchinson, or Dana Huchinson. Or data, sorry. That is a lot of names, people. If you want to listen to our show, ad free, we post the ad free version of each episode on Patreon right as they go live on all other streaming platforms. Go sign up at patreon.com, Murder in America.

Please follow us on Instagram. Once again, in Twitter, we're trying to boost our social following and keep on sharing screenshots of you listening to the show. If you are at any point on your phone and you're listening to Murder in America, take a screenshot, a screenshot, and upload it to your Instagram, Twitter. Twitter, whatever. We're helping, or it helps to grow the show completely organically. And, uh, yeah, we're so happy and so proud to have so many amazing people out there listening. But once again, we'll be back next week. And as always, you got to ask yourself the same old question. And you know what it is too. The dead don't talk. Or do they? We'll see you next week, everybody.