Murder: True Crime Stories - HOLIDAY SPECIAL: The New Year's Murders 2 with Vanessa Richardson

Episode Date: January 1, 2026

The investigation into the disappearance of Olivia Hope and Ben Smart intensifies in this second episode, following detectives as they seize on 26-year-old Scott Watson as their primary suspect despite mismatched witness descriptions, a missing boat, and no bodies ever found. Carter and Vanessa examine the controversial forensic hair evidence, disputed scratch marks, shifting witness identifications, jailhouse informants, and the prosecution’s improvised “two-trip theory,” all of which led to Watson’s conviction in one of New Zealand’s most divisive murder cases. As key witnesses later recant and public skepticism grows, the episode explores decades of appeals, wavering public opinion, and the families’ painful search for closure—raising the haunting question of whether the truth about what happened to Olivia and Ben has ever truly been uncovered. If you’re new here, don’t forget to follow Murder True Crime Stories to never miss a case! For Ad-free listening and early access to episodes, subscribe to Crime House+ on Apple Podcasts. Murder True Crime Stories is a Crime House Original Podcast, powered by PAVE Studios 🎧 Need More to Binge?  Listen to other Crime House Originals Clues, Crimes Of…, Killer Minds, Crime House Daily and Crimes and more wherever you get your podcasts! Follow me on Social Instagram: @Crimehouse TikTok: @Crimehouse Facebook: @crimehousestudios YouTube: @crimehousestudios To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, Crime House community. It's Vanessa Richardson. Exciting news. Conspiracy theories, cults, and crimes is leveling up. Starting the week of January 12th, you'll be getting two episodes every week. Wednesdays, we unravel the conspiracy or the cult, and on Fridays we look at a corresponding crime. Every week has a theme. Tech, bioterror, power, paranoia, you name it. Follow conspiracy theories, cults and crimes now. on your podcast app because you're about to dive deeper, get weirder, and go darker than ever before. We've all heard about the five stages of grief, denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and

acceptance. A step-by-step guide like this sounds comforting, but anyone who's lost someone knows it's not that simple. Grief is a process, and it's different for everyone. And for those people who have lost a loved one, that list that Carter mentioned misses a crucial step, closure. Unfortunately, that's not always so easy to find. In 1998, the families of 17-year-old Olivia Hope and 21-year-old Ben Smart learned that the hard way. Olivia and Ben had gone missing after a New Year's party and were presumed dead. The police had a suspect in mind, but one very important piece of the puzzle was missing. Their bodies.

People's lives are like a story. There's a beginning, a middle, and an end. But you don't always know which part you're on. Sometimes the final chapter arrives far too soon, and we don't always get to know the real ending. This is a special New Year's episode of Murder, True Crime Stories, The Crime House Original. I'm Carter Roy, and I am joined today by my friend and fellow member of the Crime House family,

Vanessa Richardson, host of Conspiracy Theory's Cults and Crimes. Hey, Carter, I'm so excited to be back. Thanks for having me. At Crime House, we want to express our gratitude to you, our community, for making this possible. Follow conspiracy theories, cults, and crimes, and murder true crime stories wherever you listen, and subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts for ad-free and early access to each two-part series. This is the second of two episodes on the disappearances of 17-year-old Olivia Hope and 21-year-old Ben Smart on on New Year's Day, 1998. Last time, we covered the final night of Ben and Olivia's lives.

After a huge New Year's Eve party in the Marlborough Sounds in New Zealand, the young couple vanished without a trace, and before long, the case went from a missing person's investigation to a homicide. Today, we'll continue the investigation and discuss the main suspect. 26-year-old Scott Watson. In June of 1999, Scott went on trial for Ben and Olivia's murder. What came next was one of the most controversial verdicts in New Zealand's history. All that and more coming up.

By January 12th, 1998, 17-year-old, Olivia Hope and 21-year-old Ben Smart had been missing for almost two weeks. Since then, their case had been upgraded from a missing person's inquiry to a homicide investigation. Even so, the authorities still needed to find Ben and Olivia. They were last seen near the Forno Lodge, a hotel and bar on the coast of New Zealand's South Island. Ben and Olivia had attended the Lodge's annual New Year's Eve bash, ringing in the new year with 1500 other attendees. By 4 a.m. on January 1st, 1998, the couple was ready to call it a night, but they didn't have a place to sleep. They hitched a ride on a water taxi, driven by 32-year-old

Guy Wallace. Guy told police they accepted another passenger's offer to spend the night on his boat. Guy dropped the three of them off at the stranger's ship, a 40-foot sailboat with two masts, painted white with a broad blue stripe along the side. That was the last time anyone saw Ben or Olivia. Since then, police had been searching the more than 160 boats that had been moored at the lodge that night. None matched Guy's description. And lead detective Rob Pope had started to believe that Guy made a mistake,

especially since they'd found a suspect, 26-year-old Scott Watson. Scott's boat, the blade, was much so. smaller than the one guy had seen. It had one mast, not two, and it was painted red the night of the party, though Scott later painted it blue. And Scott didn't quite match the mystery stranger guy described. While the man guy saw was scruffy with long hair and a beard, Scott was clean-shaven with short hair. But even though his boat and appearance didn't match, police thought his personality did. Scott had an extensive juvenile criminal record. Some of the other people, people at Furneau Lodge distinctly remembered him being drunk and rude during the party.

He was spotted aggressively hitting on women and picking fights. And last but not least, his boat was moored in the same area Guy dropped Olivia and Benoff the night of the party. Given all of that, the police thought Scott was their man. But it was all circumstantial. They still needed to find hard proof. On January 12, 1998, detectives searched Scott's boat, blade. At first glance, there weren't any obvious blood stains or fingerprints. In fact, it looked a little

too clean, like Scott had scrubbed it extensively after the party. Police hoped he hadn't destroyed all the evidence. They collected what samples they could, including a large blanket with a picture of a tiger on it that was covered in hares. Then they sent it all off for analysis. At the Institute of Environmental Science and Research, a scientist named Susan Vintanur found over 400 hairs on the blanket. Investigators hope this would be a slam dunk that the fibers belong to Ben or Olivia. It wouldn't be that easy, though. Most of the hairs were brown. Since both Scott and Ben were brunettes, this didn't really narrow things down. It would take a while to determine whose hairs were whose, but there was also some blonde strands, and Olivia was blonde. So to save time,

Susan focused on those. After days of analysis on January 22nd, she found 11 strands that were similar shades as Olivia's. It looked promising. But genetic testing quickly dashed those hopes. None of the hairs were a match for Olivia's. It was a crushing blow for police. So far, they hadn't found any physical evidence that Ben and Olivia were on board the blade. No traces of blood or fingerprints, and now no hair, which was a problem. So far, the investigation had focused almost exclusively on Scott. If he wasn't the culprit, Detective Pope had no idea who was.

So in early March, Pope ordered investigators to go through the blood. a second time. That's when an officer noticed the hatch leading from the ship's deck to the bedroom below. The outside of it was steel, but the inside, which was only visible from below, was cushioned by a thin layer of insulation. It was made of a spongy material similar to a yoga mat. Up close, the officer could see dozens of tiny indentations in the material, like they'd been made by fingernails. The investigator's blood ran cold. as he counted 176 marks. They looked to him like someone had been clawing at the insulation,

trying desperately to get out, as if Ben or Olivia were trapped inside the boat. That wasn't all the police found on their second sweep. Like most boats, the underside of the blade's hull was covered in algae, but toward the rear of the ship, police found a few spots that were completely clear of growth. Experienced boaters often scrape their hulls to reduce drag, which helps the ship go faster.

Maybe that's what Scott had done. But detectives thought there might be another explanation. If Scott dumped Ben and Olivia overboard, their bodies might have rubbed the algae away. Still, this was just a theory. Investigators needed forensic evidence to convince a jury, so they decided to take another look at the hair found on the tiger blanket. On March 7th, three months after Ben and Olivia went missing,

scientist Susan Bittner looked back through the 400 hairs taken from the tiger blanket. This time, she noticed two long blonde hairs she hadn't found back on January 22nd. She labeled these hairs samples 12 and 13 and sent them off for genetic testing. All of the tests run on sample 13 were inconclusive. The lab determined it had been contaminated at some point and contained the DNA of at least two people. This meant that the hair could have been Olivia's, but there was no way to tell. Number 12, on the other hand, was viable. And it still had the root attached, meaning it could be used to test for DNA.

The lab found that sample 12 was 28,000 times more likely to belong. to Olivia's maternal line compared to a random person. In other words, there was a high chance that the hair was Olivia's or her sister Amelia's. Susan Vittner had single-handedly saved the police's case. Finally, they had some evidence placing Olivia Hope on the blade before she disappeared. Detectives were more confident than ever that they'd found the killer. But it's still wasn't a sure thing, and Scott Watson hadn't given up the fight. On March 7, 1998, a forensic scientist matched a hair found on Scott Watson's boat with Olivia Hope. Police finally had hard evidence that Scott had contact with Olivia

before she and Ben Smart went missing on New Year's Eve. But the case against Scott was still far from airtight. And when police went to question him again, he had convenient explanations for everything they'd found during their second search of his boat. Detectives pressed Scott about the scratch marks on the inside of the ship's hatch. The police theorized the marks were made by Olivia

when Scott had trapped her inside the boat. But Scott claimed they came from his two nieces, who were on board the blade in late December, weeks before Ben and Olivia disappeared. According to him, his nieces were picking at the insulation on the hatch while he and his sister cleaned the boat. Scott pointed out that the scratch marks were all over the inside of the hatch, including on the extreme edges. Those edges were inaccessible when the hatch was closed, meaning they couldn't have been left behind by someone who was trapped under the hatch. and for that matter, the hatch only locked from the inside. If Scott had locked Olivia and Ben in, they could have easily gotten out. Scott's sister and the rest of his family corroborated the story about his nieces scratching up the insulation.

He was apparently pretty upset about the damage at the time, but the authorities weren't swayed, especially because the scratch marks looked like they were made by adult nails. Scott's nieces were two and four. Besides that, Scott and his family were close. They'd been on his side since the very beginning, so investigators had a hard time trusting anything they said. And there were the suspiciously clean areas of the blades stern. Police believed Ben and Olivia's bodies had rubbed against the boat

while being dumped overboard, scraping off algae and weeds. However, Scott claimed he had cleaned the hull prior to New Year's. It seemed like he had an answer for everything, except the hair samples. He told investigators he had no idea how they got on the boat. He insisted Olivia never came onto the blade, which meant the experts had made a mistake, or the hair had gotten on board some other way during the New Year's party. So this is called secondary transfer, and strictly speaking, it was possible. people naturally shed up to 100 hairs every day.

Hypothetically, Olivia may have bumped into Scott during the party. Her hair could have gotten stuck to his jacket or his shoe. Then it might have rubbed off onto the tiger blanket on board the blade. And technically, the DNA test only proved the hair belonged to someone in Olivia's family, so it could have even belonged to her sister Amelia. However, Scott insisted he hadn't seen Olivia or Amelia at the party. But to police, it seemed highly unlikely the hair could have gotten onto his boat accidentally. It was much more plausible that Olivia herself had shed the hair on board the blade just before she disappeared.

Since the physical evidence was so thin, the police hadn't yet arrested Scott. They'd hoped confronting him with the hair would make him confess. When he doubled down, they decided to try a new tactic. Knowing how tight Scott was with his family, police thought one of them might know more than they let on. So investigators bugged the Watson's home, their neighbor's house, and even a payphone across the street. All day, every day, the police listened to the family's private conversations. They also had one of Scott's ex-girlfriend's call and asked him about the case as they listened in. The two of them discussed his boat, the New Year's party, and how he was.

handling all of the negative attention from the media. The operation didn't get the authorities the evidence they were hoping for, but they did learn that the Watson family hated the police. Scott's mom and dad had a particular dislike for lead detective Rob Pope. In the privacy of their home, they made vulgar jokes about how much they despised him. They discussed whether it would be better to shoot him or stab him. They even openly wondered about how much it would cost to put out a hit on him.

The Watson's later insisted this was all in jest. They needed to let off some steam. Journalists had been swarming their house for months. Scott's mom had to leave through the backyard and hop a fence to avoid them. She and the rest of her family accused the police of sicking journalists on them and spreading nasty rumors. Some newspapers even reported that Scott had an incestuous relationship with his, sister. It was just rude gossip, but the Watson's felt it was another tactic in the smear campaign against them. The police denied they had any role in that. Even so, the wiretaps

affected how the investigators viewed the case. Rob Pope must have listened to their conversations about putting a hit out on him, and it's hard to believe he could dismiss those comments as innocent jokes. Chances were, this only intensified the police's efforts to build a case against Scott. They felt that the hair from the tiger blanket and the scratches on the hatch were convincing forensic evidence. But they still faced a problem when it came to their witnesses, specifically 32-year-old Guy Wallace. Guy was the water taxi driver who saw Ben and Olivia just before they disappeared. And so far, he had refused to identify Scott Watson as the scruffy stranger who Ben and Olivia had left with. He still claimed the mystery man had longer hair than Scott and was unshaven.

The police had shown Guy multiple photo lineups in which he failed to pick Scott's picture out of the pile. The same went for another witness, a bartender at the New Year's party that night. Roz McNeely told the authorities that she remembered the scruffy man who Guy Wallace described. Though she hadn't seen him on the water taxi with Ben and Olivia, she had spotted him earlier while serving drinks. She told investigators that the man's eyes stood out to her. They were very narrow, but when detectives showed a photo lineup, she failed to identify Scott Watson as the person she'd seen. Here was a credible witness trying to give the police more information

to help them catch a killer. But the detail she gave didn't match their number one suspect, so instead of finding a man who matched her description, police took a different route. trying to make their old suspect fit the new evidence. On April 20th, the police put together a fresh photo lineup for Guy and Roz. These pictures were all close-ups taken from the chest up. They included Scott Watson and seven other men who looked similar to him.

But the photo of Scott they used was a new one, and it was noticeably different from the ones they'd picked before. The photographer had caught Scott mid-blink, making it look like he had narrow eyes. When presented with this new lineup, Guy Wallace spent several minutes examining the photos. Finally, he tentatively pointed to the one of Scott Watson. He said that while he couldn't be sure, the man in that photo looked the closest to the mystery man he remembered. He specifically said they had similar eyes. eyes. Roz McNeely also chose the blinking photo of Scott, but she was clear that the picture

didn't exactly resemble the man she had seen. Still, Roz could tell from the way the police were acting that they already had a suspect in mind. When she pressed them to tell her who it was, an officer admitted it was Scott Watson. Ross remembered reading a newspaper story months earlier about Scott, which mentioned there was a picture of him taken during the New Year's party. According to the article, the photo showed him clean-shaven with short hair. Roz had never actually seen that picture. She had only read about it, so she asked to speak to Detective Pope personally. She was adamant that if she saw a photo taken during the party,

she could definitively tell the police whether Scott was the scruffy man she served at the bar. However, Detective Pope refused to show it to her. Pope assured Roz that his team had it all under control. Her help with the photo lineup was more than enough. But Roz went home that night feeling a vague sense of doubt that would haunt her for years. While she was uncertain, the police were ecstatic. Finally, after more than four months of investigation, they had witness testimony they could use against their number one suspect. Even with their misgivings, both Roz and Guy had picked Scott out of a lineup. Combined with the forensic evidence, the authorities had everything they needed to make an arrest. Scott Watson was going down.

And I'm Natalie. Have you ever had an experience so strange, maybe even frightening, that you just couldn't explain? Strange noises in the night, shadows moving in the corner of your vision, or that chilling sensation that you aren't alone as you walk into an empty room? Well, over at Ghosties, we like to drink tea while spilling the tea on all things paranormal. So if you love the thrill of a good scare, you can join us every Monday and Thursday for a new episode of Ghosties wherever you get your podcasts. On June 15th, 1998, 27-year-old Scott Watson was arrested in Rangaria, New Zealand. He was charged with the murders of 17-year-old Olivia Hope and 21-year-old Ben Smart. Though Scott maintained his innocence, he wasn't blindsided by the arrest. For months, the police had been laser-focused on him.

When they finally slapped the cuffs on him, Scott had just two words for the officers booking him about time. Olivia's father, Gerald, was relieved to finally have Scott behind bars. The authorities had promised him in both families that Scott was guilty. They were hopeful that the trial would finally bring them the closure they desperately needed. On June 10, 1999, the proceedings began. It was one of the highest profile cases in New Zealand's history. By then, Olivia and Ben,

had been in the news for 18 months straight. Almost everyone in the country had an opinion about the case, and few of them had sympathy for Scott Watson. Even so, going into the courthouse, Scott's defense team was pretty confident. They knew the police had some forensic evidence and witness testimony on their side, but all of it was circumstantial,

meaning it didn't conclusively prove Scott's guilt. And most importantly, neither Olivia nor Ben's bodies had been found. Still, Scott's lawyers planned to focus on the timeline, which they thought was the weakest part of the state's case. Guy Wallace and the other passengers on the water taxi claimed Olivia and Ben boarded between 4 and 5 a.m. But Scott insisted he was already on his ship, the blade, by 2 a.m., hours before Ben and Olivia went missing. Several passengers on neighboring boats corroborated his story. They remembered Scott, drunkenly waking them up to try and keep the party going.

It wasn't a pleasant memory, but it backed up his alibi. This was essential to the defense, and they were prepared to use these details to their advantage. But the police threw them a curveball. In courts, prosecutors introduced what came to be known as the two-trip theory. This was exactly what it sounded like. They claim that Scott did indeed return to the blade around 2 a.m. Then, at some point after that, probably around 3 o'clock, he came back to shore.

The prosecution argued that Scott could have hitched a ride on another passing boat. They had no witness testimony to corroborate the theory, so it was only speculation, but the police didn't need details. All they cared about was proving to the jury that Scott could, have returned to the lodge, which would give him just enough time to take the water taxi back with Ben and Olivia at 4.5 a.m. This new theory wasn't the only secret weapon the prosecution had in store. They also had two separate jailhouse informants. Both of them claimed that in prison Scott Watson had openly confessed to murdering Ben and Olivia. In general, juries are cautioned to

take these stories with a grain of salt. Oftentimes, they're testifying in return for a favorable deal with police, but in Scott Watson's case, the informants had a major effect on the jury. Their identities were protected, so we'll call them Witness A and Witness B. Witness A told the jury that Scott showed him exactly how he'd strangled Olivia Hope. Witness B didn't have the same level of detail, but did testify that Scott had confessed to the murders. The defense did their best to undermine the informant stories. During the trial, Witness B admitted to having his sentence reduced because of his cooperation. Not only that, but police gave him a cell phone and a car to use once he was

released. Even so, the jury seemed to believe both informant's testimonies. And then there was the physical evidence. The prosecution made sure to highlight the scratches found on the blade's hatch. Scott's lawyers blamed the marks on his nieces, but the prosecution proposed the marks were made by Olivia, and the image of her desperately trying to scratch her way out of the boat was a powerful one. Then there was the strand of Olivia's hair that was found on the tiger blanket. Scott Watson still didn't have a good answer for how it could have made its way onto his boat,

So in court, his defense tried to question the credibility of the scientist who found the hair, Susan Bintner. On the stand, she admitted that cross-contamination from her lab coat was possible. And she acknowledged that there was a small slit in the Ziploc bag containing the reference hairs from Olivia's brush. While she didn't find it likely, she said it was possible for reference hairs to get mixed up with the hairs taken from the blanket. it. Susan Vittner told the jury she was confident in her findings. The hair was Olivia's. It was up to them to decide where it had come from. In the end, the jury sided with the prosecution. On September 11, 1999, they convicted Scott Watson of two counts of murder. He was sentenced to life in prison with the possibility of parole after 17 years.

Initially, the decision was met with celebration. The families of Ben and Olivia supported the outcome and Scott's sentence. But in the days after the trial, critics emerged to challenge the police's narrative, and suddenly the case didn't seem so cut and dry. A few weeks after the verdict, Roz McNeely, the bartender at the New Year's bash, finally saw the photo of Scott Watson the night of the party. After taking a long look, she was sure that the scruffy man she remembered was not Scott Watson. She told the media she'd been proud that her testimony helped put a murderer behind bars.

Now she was afraid that she'd locked an innocent man in prison while the real killer still roamed free. Raws wasn't the only one. After Scott's conviction, Guy Wallace publicly retracted his testimony. He agreed with Razz, the man who was on his water tax. that night wasn't Scott Watson, and the boat he dropped Ben and Olivia off at wasn't the blade. Within a year, jailhouse informant A had also retracted his statements. He claimed he fabricated his testimony entirely in order to avoid jail time for an unrelated crime. Witness B never recanted his testimony. During the trial, he claimed he struck up a close relationship

with Scott in jail. But afterward, it came to light that the two of them never shared a cell, which made people wonder if they were really as close as he claimed. All of these revelations had a major impact on the families of the victims, especially Olivia's father, Gerald Hope. He started to speak out saying he had doubts about Scott Watson's guilt. Though he still believed Scott could be the killer, he thought the police had mishandled the investigation. In particular, he believed they didn't focus enough effort on finding the blue and white boat that Guy Wallace claimed he saw. He was also unsure about the two-trip theory. It felt like the police had spent all this effort getting

the facts to fit one suspect rather than following where they led. And Scott's lawyers agreed. A year after the trial, in April 2000, Scott appealed his case. His attorneys focused extensively on the two-trip theory, which they argued had come out of nowhere. Under New Zealand law, a prosecution or defense team can present information that was not previously disclosed so long as it does not result in an unfair trial. Scott's lawyers claim that by suddenly presenting the two-trip theory, the prosecution had skewed the case. The state disagreed. They ruled that Scott's defense team should have anticipated that kind of argument, and since no additional evidence had come to light since the verdicts, there was nothing

to justify a new trial, which meant Scott would remain in jail. But not everyone was giving up on him. Several documentaries and books were written about the case, and some of them called the police investigation into question. This completely altered how people viewed Scott. In 2002, a survey found 59% of New Zealanders believe Scott was guilty of murder. By 2007, that number had dropped, to 42%. This change prompted Scott to file a formal request to be pardoned by the Governor General

in 2008. The Ministry of Justice appointed an attorney to review the evidence and look into the case. But in 2013, his application was officially denied. Since then, Scott Watson

has had a rocky time in prison. He was reprimanded at least four times for misconduct. He failed two drug tests and beat a fellow inmate unconscious during a fight. None of this has helped him in his bids for freedom, and since he's always maintained his innocence, he has refused to participate in any rehabilitation programs. As a result, Scott's come up for parole four times and been denied each time. Still, in 2025, a court agreed to re-examine the evidence in Scott's case one more time. By then, Scott was 53 years old and had been in prison for almost half of his

life. His lawyers argued that the hair analysis and the eyewitness testimony from Guy Wallace were both flawed. According to them, neither should have been admissible in the original trial. But on September 9, 2025, a court ruled against them. In a 291-page decision, they found that the hair analysis was presented properly to the jury back in 1999. Scott was once again sent back to prison, and as of this recording, he has few, if any, appeals left. It's a disappointing conclusion to a grim story. In the years since Olivia Hope and Ben Smart's disappearance,

the investigation into Scott Watson has frequently taken center stage, and as the public became more convinced of his possible innocence, his story has overshadowed Ben's and Olivia's. For the Hope and Smart Families, this has been the biggest tragedy of all. They're still desperate for answers, but because of the way the police handled the case, it's difficult to know what really happened that New Year's Day. Back in 2016, Gerald Hope spoke with Scott Watson,

in prison. During their discussion, he wasn't fully convinced of Scott's innocence. But he did tell Scott, quote, we never got the truth. We haven't got the truth yet. Hopefully, one day, they will. Thanks so much for listening. I'm Carter Roy here with special guest Vanessa Richardson, and this is Murder True Crime Stories. Come back next week for the story of a new murder and all the people it affected. Thanks, Carter. Murder True Crime Stories is a Crimehouse original powered by Pave Studios. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on social media at Crime House on TikTok and Instagram. Don't forget to rate, review, and follow Murder True Crime Stories wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference. And to enhance your murder true crime stories listening experience, subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode ad-free. And instead of having to wait for each episode of a two-part series, you'll get access to both at once, plus exciting bonus content. We'll be back on Tuesday.

Murder True Crime Stories is hosted by me, Carter Roy, and special guest Vanessa Richardson, and is a crime house original powered by Pave Studios. This episode was brought to life by the Murder True Crime Stories team. Max, Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benadon, Natalie Pertzowski, Lori Maranelli, Sarah Camp, Terrell Wells, Molly Quinlan Artwick, Honeya A Said, and Russell Nash. Thank you for listening. Looking for your next listen? Hi, it's Vanessa Richardson, and I have exciting news.

Conspiracy theories, cults, and crimes is leveling up. Starting the week of January 12th, you'll be getting two episodes every week. Wednesdays, we unravel the conspiracy or the cult, and on Fridays we look at a corresponding crime. Follow conspiracy theories, cults, and. crimes now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen.