Murder: True Crime Stories - MYSTERY: The Sleepwalker Murder featuring Payne Lindsey

Episode Date: March 6, 2026

In January 1997, Scott Falater appeared to be a devoted husband, father, and successful engineer living a quiet suburban life in Arizona—until his wife, Yarmila Falater, was found brutally stabbed and drowned in their backyard pool. Scott was discovered nearby with blood on his clothes, yet he claimed he had no memory of the attack, insisting he was sleepwalking during the murder. In this episode, Up and Vanished’s Payne Lindsey introduces us to the case and discusses what makes this case so fascinating. We explore the shocking crime, the rare “homicidal sleepwalking” defense that divided experts, and the chilling question at the center of the case: was this a calculated act of violence, or a tragic nightmare carried out unconsciously? The Scott Falater story remains one of the most controversial and unsettling murder trials in modern history. If you’re new here, don’t forget to follow Murder True Crime Stories to never miss a case! For Ad-free listening and early access to episodes, subscribe to Crime House+ on Apple Podcasts. Murder True Crime Stories is a Crime House Original Podcast, powered by PAVE Studios 🎧 Need More to Binge?  Listen to other Crime House Originals Clues, Crimes Of…, Serial Killers & Murderous Minds, Crime House 24/7, and more wherever you get your podcasts! Follow me on Social Instagram: @Crimehouse TikTok: @Crimehouse Facebook: @crimehousestudios YouTube: @crimehousestudios To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Carter. If you're enjoying murder, true crime stories, there's a new crime house show for you to check out. It's called The Final Hours hosted by Sarah Turney and Courtney Nicole. Sarah is an advocate for missing and murdered victims whose own sister disappeared in 2001. And Courtney is a true crime storyteller who has seen firsthand how crime can change a family forever. Together, they bring lived experience to every case, examining the moment. moments just before a person disappears, the routines, the timelines, the small details that often get overlooked, because every disappearance has a moment where everything still feels normal until it doesn't. Listen to and follow the final hours on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon music, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes drop every Monday. This is Crime House.

44 stab wounds, a swimming pool full of blood, a witness who saw it all happen, and a man who had no idea he'd just become a killer. Memory can be tricky like that. We've all been in a situation where we completely forget something we've done. Maybe your parents told an embarrassing childhood story you don't remember, or your friends had to fill you in after too many drinks. For the most part, these realizations are harmless, sometimes funny even. but for Scott for later, they were horrifying. One night in 1997, Scott's life was shattered when he learned that his wife of 20 years

was brutally murdered in their backyard. Scott said he was fast asleep when it happened. Then things took an even darker turn when police told Scott he was the one who actually did it. Welcome to the sleepwalker murder. People's lives are like a story. There's a beginning, a middle,

and an end. But you don't always know which part you're on. Sometimes the final chapter arrives far too soon, and we don't always get to know the real ending. I'm Carter Roy, and this is Murder, true crime stories, a crime house original powered by Pave Studios. And today I'm joined by Payne, Lindsay, the host of the Up and Vanished podcast. Thanks for having me, man. Yeah, so glad you're here. And now, before we dive in, make sure to go and follow Up and Vanished. if you haven't already. Every season, Payne covers a different cold case. His coverage has led to some remarkable results and put an important spotlight on stories that need to be told. Trust me, you do not want to miss it. Today, Payne is going to introduce the case we're covering and explain

why it's one he hasn't been able to get out of his head. Then be sure to stick around at the end as we sit down for an extended conversation about these shocking events. Yeah, this is a This is definitely a case that sticks with me personally because it's just weird. Today Carter is going to tell you all about Scott Follator, also known as the Sleepwalker Murderer. In 1997, Scott's world came crashing down when his wife was found dead in their backyard. She'd been drowned and stabbed repeatedly. Scott had no idea what happened until he was in handcuffs.

What followed was one of the most controversial trials in U.S. history, and I can see why. Story shows how complex our minds really are. It makes us question how well we really know ourselves. All that and more coming up. Where are my gloves? Come on, heat. Winter is hard, but your groceries don't have to be. This winter, stay warm.

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shower thoughts, pivotal hallway chats, or big ideas. People do. And people, when given the best AI platform, they're freed up to do the fulfilling work they want to do. To see how Service Now puts AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com. Scott Follater learned the art of compartmentalizing at a young age. He was born in Illinois on September 14, 1955, the eldest of five kids. He was raised in a middle-class Catholic household where his mother, Lois, was a nurse, and his father, Frederick, was an HR manager. Even though the Philators were devout Catholics, their house wasn't always a peaceful one.

Behind closed doors, Frederick was reportedly a heavy drinker with a sharp temper. He and Lois fought a lot, and things often got violent. Frederick also abused his children emotionally and physically. As the oldest boy, Scott usually got it the worst. But he never complained. His main priority was taking care of his siblings. And despite the chaos and violence, Once at home, Scott excelled in school.

He played the clarinet and loved classical music. As far as anyone could tell, he was a happy and well-adjusted kid. They had no idea that behind that cool demeanor, Scott was struggling. The stress of dealing with his father manifested in some concerning ways that Scott seemed to have no control over. When he was around 10, Scott started wetting the bed. Not long after, he was sleepwalking, too. He never had any memory of what he did during these episodes. He only heard about it from his family. At first, Scott would just stumble around the house, and even though his eyes were open, he was completely asleep. But it wasn't long until these episodes got more intense. One night when he was around 12 years old,

Scott came out of his room, butt-naked, walked into his parents' room, and told them he was ready for school. Frederick got out of bed and placed his hands on Scott's shoulders to try to guide him back to his room. Scott pushed back with alarming force. His father couldn't get him to move at all. Frederick was stunned, and Lois was disturbed. The strength that Scott displayed was border. line aggressive. His parents weren't sure how to help him after that, and they were worried about triggering him while he was sleepwalking. Their hesitation was understandable, but it only made things

worse. Not long after this incident, Scott left the house naked and walked to school in the middle of the night. Clearly, Scott was having a hard time coping with his home life, and unfortunately, things only got more difficult when he was a teenager. At some point, his father abandoned the family. Lois was now a single mom, raising Scott and his four siblings alone. Even though Frederick had tormented Scott and the others for years, he was still Scott's dad, and he couldn't help but feel a huge sense of loss. A few years later, when Scott was 18, he experienced another devastating loss when one of his friends died in a drunk driving accident. All that grief had a huge impact on Scott, and soon his sleepwalking went from unsettling to violent. One night when Scott was around 20 years old,

he walked into the kitchen, partially clothed, and tried to open the back door. His sister Laura was in the room at the time. She knew that Scott was under a lot of stress because of his final exams, So when she noticed her brother's trance-like state, she could tell what was happening, and she didn't want to let him wander off outside. Laura reached around Scott and tried to secure the deadbolt to stop him from leaving. A moment later, Scott turned and looked at her with an expression that Laura later described as demonic. The look sent a chill down her spine. But before she could do anything,

Scott grabbed her, lifted her up, and threw her across the room. Fortunately, it doesn't seem like Laura was badly hurt, but after this incident, Scott was aware of the harm he could inflict while unconscious. Still, Scott's mother and siblings knew he would never intentionally hurt them, so whatever happened at night stayed between the family. Keeping his sleepwalking a secret meant Scott could still. have a normal academic and social life, and his social life was thriving in high school. Scott met his first and only girlfriend, Yarmala.

Scott, who was pretty soft-spoken, was drawn to Yarmala's confidence and dry sense of humor. The more they got to know each other, the more they realized how much they had in common. Yarmala was the eldest of her siblings and was raised in the Catholic household. We don't know if Scott told Yarmala about his sleepwalking, also known as Parasomnia. But if he did, it didn't bother her. Yarmala saw a future with Scott, and nothing was going to change that. After high school, they went to college 50 miles apart, but they didn't let the distance get in the way of their relationship. They visited each other every month and supported each other's dreams.

Yarmala studied microbiology while Scott did electrical engineering. He also worked part-time to start saving up for their future family. Despite how busy they were, the young couples stuck it out, and soon they were ready to take the next step. In 1975, during the summer before their senior year of college, Scott took Yarmala to her favorite restaurant and proposed. Yarmala said yes. They planned to get married after they each earned their master's degrees. But before that could happen, they made another big decision.

One day in 1976, a pair of Mormon missionaries knocked on Scott's door. They started chatting, and Scott was surprised by how much their words moved him. He and Yarmala were both raised Catholic, but neither of them felt. deeply connected to the religion. But when Scott spoke with the missionaries, he realized the Mormon faith called to him. He and Yarmala were still long distance, so Scott started going to Mormon services on his own. Soon he was making new friends there and regularly attending church events. He told Yarmala how much his new faith meant to him and asked if she would be willing to convert as well. Yarmala was skeptical at first, but eventually her fiancé persuaded her.

That same year, they were both baptized in the Mormon church and later got married. The next few years were pretty uneventful. The couple was happy as could be, and their careers were taking off too. In 1980, when they were both in their mid-20s, they left Illinois and moved to Melbourne, Florida, to start new jobs. Scott became an electrical engineer, and Yarmala worked in a medical lab. Soon they were able to buy a house, and one year later, they welcomed their first child, a daughter named Megan. A few years after that, their son Michael was born. Scott and Yarmala were living a fairy tale. Their friends in Florida couldn't help but notice how happy they were together. They never fought or complained about each other at all.

Even better, Scott was an incredibly loving father. It seemed like he wanted his kids to have the kind of dad he'd always hoped for. He and Yarmala took active roles in their kids' lives, taking Michael to Cub Scouts and Megan to piano lessons. Megan and Michael always knew they could count on their parents. Eventually Yarmala quit her job so she could be there for her kids around the clock and while she stayed home, Scott's career skyrocketed. He was the kind of steady, family-oriented guy that his colleagues admired,

and soon his reputation helped him land a new role in Minnesota. Yarmala and their kids were happy for him. The only problem was that they'd have to leave behind the community they built in Florida. When they got to Minnesota, they realized it didn't have as much tall. offer. This was mainly because their local church was smaller. Since Yarmala stayed home, this affected her more than anyone. Soon she began feeling isolated and resentful. Scott could see how unhappy she was, so he looked for solutions. In 1987, Scott got a new job in Phoenix, Arizona. Not only was it a corporate level management position, but Arizona had a much large,

larger Mormon population than Minnesota. Once they were in Phoenix, the philaders quickly found a strong church community. Soon enough, everyone in the family was feeling at home, and Yarmala was feeling like herself again. She even got a part-time job as a teacher's assistant. She loved it so much that she planned to go full-time when the kids were older. But she and Scott decided that Arizona was where they wanted to settle down for good. And thanks to Scott's performance at work, they were even saving up for retirement. Within a few years, Scott was leading some of the company's most important projects. But in the late 90s, things got more complicated.

One of the product lines he was in charge of wasn't performing well. If things didn't get better, Scott would have to be the one to lay people off. To try to stop that from happening, he started pulling all-nighters to get more work done and hopefully save people's jobs. Soon, Scott was showing up to work, bleary-eyed and tired, and even falling asleep in meetings. And despite his Mormon faith, which prohibited caffeine, Scott started occasionally taking caffeine pills to stay awake. One pill apparently had twice the caffeine, as two cans of Red Bull would have to do. day. And in the end, it was all for nothing. Eventually, Scott's boss told him they were having a department meeting on January 17, 1997. That's when he would have to break the news to several people

that they were being let go. Scott did not take it well. By then, Yarmala had seen him sleepwalk a handful of times, but nothing serious ever happened. Usually he woke up in the living room or even on their bedroom floor with no recollection of how he'd gotten there. But the more stressed he became, the more often it started to happen. And Yarmala was getting worried. To try to take his mind off work, the philators took a trip to Sedona, Arizona on December 28, 1996. While there, they took in the canyon views and spent quality time together. At one point, Yarmala turned on her video camera and captured 41-year-old Scott with his arms around 17-year-old Megan and 12-year-old Michael. The fallators had no idea that would be one of their last home videos because just a couple of weeks later, one of them would be dead.

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We'd love to talk. Business. In December of 1996, 41-year-old Scott Velaider and his family vacationed in Sedona, Arizona. And the trip was mostly for Scott's benefit. He was under a ton of stress at work. In just a couple of weeks,

on January 17, 1997, he was supposed to lay off several of his employees. Scott had been dreading it for a while. and even though the trip to Sedona did help him decompress a bit, once they were back home, he was already back on edge. But as the meeting got closer, Scott did his best to stay calm. When he got home from work on January 16th, he had dinner with Yarmala and the kids,

and then he got ready for the church youth class he taught. After that, Yarmala reminded him that the filter in the pool was broken. Scott said he would go out of the school. outside and see if he could fix it. At around 9 p.m., he went into the backyard, flashlight in hand. When he looked at the filter, Scott noticed part of it was rusty. He grabbed his hunting knife to try to dislodge it, but it was stuck. By 9.30 or so, he decided it was too dark to get anything done,

so he went back inside where Yarmala was asleep on the living room couch. Scott woke her up, gave her a kiss, and said he'd try again with a filter the following day. Then he headed upstairs, changed into his pajamas, and was asleep by 10. But Scott didn't stay in bed for long. Around 10.30, Scott and Yarmala's neighbors, Greg Coons and Stephanie Reedhead, heard some strange noises coming from their yard. It sounded like faint moaning. Then Stephanie thought she heard a woman say something like, Please help or please stop.

Greg and Stephanie were friendly with the fillators and wanted to make sure everything was okay. So Greg went outside to investigate. He stood on a planter and peered over the concrete fence between his house and the fillators. It was pretty dark outside, but Gray could see, a woman lying on her side several feet from the fillator's pool.

She was groaning and moving just a little. Greg didn't recognize her and figured she must have drunkenly stumbled onto the filator's property. But then a light went on inside the fillator's house. Greg spotted someone moving in a second floor window. His eyesight wasn't great and he could only make out their silhouette. but he watched as they entered the kitchen, where it looked like they washed their hands, then they went out into the backyard. That's when Greg realized it was Scott in his pajamas.

Greg watched as he walked over to the woman and stood over her for a few minutes, then went back inside. Soon, Scott reemerged from the house through a side door wearing a peasant, hair of black gloves. He went into the garage for a moment. When he came back out, he motioned to the family dog to stay quiet as he closed the door. Scott walked back over to the woman, who Greg now believed was Yarmala. Scott crouched down, grabbed his wife, and dragged her to the edge of the pool. Then he pushed her in. He held her head under the water until she stopped moving.

Greg ran back to his house and immediately called 911. He told the dispatcher that his neighbor had thrown his wife into their pool and was holding her down. The dispatcher asked if they had been fighting. Greg said he didn't know but that he was, quote, concerned. Shortly after, a pair of Phoenix police officers arrived. They hopped the wall between the two houses into the fillator's backyard. All the lights on the property were off, but what they could see stunned them. The 911 dispatch had alluded to a possible drowning.

The officers had expected to perform rescue CPR, but there was clearly something more sinister going on. Not only was an unresponsive woman floating in the pool, but the water was completely red. And that wasn't all. Officers also noticed a flashlight shining on the pool pump, which was surrounded by blood. As one officer pulled Yarmala out of the pool, another searched the premises. He went into the garage and found a blood-stained t-shirt. hanging out of the trunk of the fillator's Park Volvo.

When he opened the trunk, he saw a plastic container full of more blood-soaked clothing, including jeans, socks, and an undershirt. There was also a garbage bag with blood-stained gloves and leather boots inside and a hunting knife. It was clear that something gruesome had happened at the filator home, earlier that night and back outside, his partner realized the same thing. As he looked more closely at Yarmala, it became obvious that she hadn't just been drowned. She was also covered in stab wounds. The officer checked for a pulse. He couldn't find one. Yarmala was declared dead at the scene, but where was her killer? Soon the officer. The officer was

other officer joined his colleague by the pool and a light flickered on inside the house. Through a window, the officer saw Scott walking slowly down the stairs. His demeanor was odd, slow and measured, not the typical body language of someone who had just killed their wife. The officers rushed inside through a sliding glass door, which had been left ajar. They noticed a pebble at the foot of the staircase. It looked just like the ones around the pool and it was smeared with blood. Clearly, the killer had been inside the house,

and the officers believed that person was walking right toward them. They pointed their guns at Scott and told him not to move. He had a blank expression on his face, which flashed to Sir. surprise, then fear. Before he could do anything, the officers ordered him to the ground. Scott did as he was told. At the same time, he asked the officers what was going on and why they were in his house. He seemed genuinely confused, which made the officers wonder if they had the wrong man or if he was playing dumb. Well, more importantly, they needed to know if anyone else was

hurt. They asked Scott how many people were in the house. He told them there were four, including himself, his wife, and their two children. At that point, Scott seemed to realize that someone was hurt. He begged the officers to make sure they were okay. He claimed that everyone should. He claimed that everyone should be in their bedrooms, but that he didn't know for sure, because he had been asleep since about 10 p.m. and just woke up. To the officers, Scott's behavior was beyond strange, and they were used to suspects being argumentative and defensive, but Scott seemed genuinely worried and confused. Still, with all signs pointing to him as his wife's killer, Scott was put in handcuffs and escorted out of the house through the back door.

He still didn't know where his family was, but by now backup had arrived, and he could see more police gathered near the pool. No one was telling him anything. He felt groggy like he was still dreaming, but he could make out some of the officer's hushed conversations. That's how he pieced together that you, Yarmala was somewhere in the backyard and she was hurt. Soon he was at the station being led to an interrogation room.

Scott knew something was seriously wrong, but the panic didn't set in until he realized which unit he was in. The sign above the door read, homicide. Stories about survivors. The most dangerous planet. Family, retribution, murder, prophecy. Beer and propane. Panthe.

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It's called The Final Hours. and it's hosted by Sarah Turney and Courtney Nicole. Sarah is an advocate for missing and murdered victims whose sister disappeared in 2001. And Courtney is a true crime storyteller and investigator who witnessed firsthand how crime can change a family forever. Together, they bring lived experience to every case looking not only at what happened but what led up to it.

Each episode examines the moments just before a person disappears, the routines, the timelines, and the small details that often get overlooked, because every disappearance has a moment where everything still feels normal. A text that doesn't raise concern, a routine that goes unchanged, a door that closes just like it always has, until it doesn't. The final hours puts those moments under a microscope, because when it comes to justice, there's no such thing as over-analyzing. Listen to and follow the final hours on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen.

New episodes every Monday. On the night of January 16, 1997, 41-year-old Scott Fulater was arrested in Phoenix, Arizona, on suspicion of murdering his wife of 20 years, Yarmala. When he sat down in the interrogation room across from Detective John Norman, Scott placed his head in his hands and began to cry. Detective Norman didn't react. Instead, he read Scott his Miranda rights, which Scott waved. Then Norman assured Scott that his two children, 17-year-old Megan and 12-year-old Michael, were okay, before asking him to explain what happened that night. Scott was hunched over and visibly upset as he told the detective he couldn't remember.

Norman pressed harder, but all Scott told him was how much he loved his wife. Detective Norman thought Scott was intentionally avoiding the question. So he explained how Greg Coon said he saw Scott drown Yarmala. Norman also listed all the evidence the officers had found at the scene, and finally he explained that Yarmala was found covered in stab wounds and that the pool had been filled with blood. Scott froze. He knew his neighbor wouldn't lie, but he still insisted that he didn't remember anything. Since Norman wasn't getting anywhere, he shifted his line of questioning.

He asked Scott why there was blood on his neck, as well as a fresh cut on his hand. with a band-aid on it. Scott looked at his hand, then touched his neck. He looked surprised and told Norman he didn't know any of that was there until now. This only made Norman more suspicious. At the same time, Scott didn't deny killing Yarmala. He just couldn't give Norman any information about what led up to the murder or tell him anything. else about how it happened. Eventually, Detective Norman gave up. If Scott didn't want to talk,

it didn't matter, because Norman was certain of what he did. He led Scott to a cell. Shortly after, the medical examiner concluded that Yarmala's official cause of death was, quote, multiple stab wounds with drowning. In total, she had sustained 44 stab wounds. Investigators charged Scott with first-degree murder. If convicted, he'd be facing the death penalty. When news spread of Scott's arrest, his family and friends were as shocked as he was. Everyone knew him as a devoted, god-faring family man who made an honest living. Not to mention, they knew how in love he and Yarmala had been.

It didn't make sense. that he would kill her. No one seemed more certain of Scott's innocence than his children, Megan and Michael. Police had ushered Megan and Michael out of their home on the night their mother died and made sure they didn't see her body. But they still heard about all the gruesome details, and no part of them believed their father was capable of such violence. Scott's children stayed with loved ones while he was behind bars, and they visited him faithfully while he awaited trial for two years.

They were even there one day in 1999 when reporters came to the prison to talk to Scott. The interview aired on 2020, and it was the first time the public heard Scott's explanation for what happened. He said he didn't mean to kill his wife. because he was sleepwalking when he did it. The public had mixed reactions to the interview. Some didn't trust him and were sure he was lying. Others were sympathetic. They thought he was a victim too.

Wherever people fell, one thing was certain. Scott's trial was sure to make waves. And when he stepped into the courtroom in May of 1999, it was clear that this case was unlike any other. On the stand, 43-year-old Scott stuck by his story. He killed his wife while sleepwalking. He said he didn't mean to do it and had no memory of it. The prosecutor, Juan Martinez, wasn't buying it.

He believed Scott was wide awake when he killed his wife and that he was only pretending he didn't remember it. According to Martinez, at around 10 p.m. on the night of January 16, 1997, Scott attacked Yarmala with his hunting knife in their backyard. He used one arm to muffle her screams and the other to stab her 44 times. Martinez said that after that, Scott stashed all the evidence in his Volvo, which is why his clothes were clean by the time the police arrived. After recounting what happened that night, Martinez called the Falator's neighbor Greg Coons to the stand. Greg laid out everything he witnessed that night, from seeing Yarmala writhing in the yard, to Scott standing silently over her and eventually pushing her into the pool.

Greg also explained that he called 911 after Scott began holding Yarmala's head underwater. But there was one thing Greg couldn't explain why he watched this scene play out for so long before doing something about it. The defense suggested Yarmala would have had a better chance at survival if Greg had tried to stop Scott. At the same time, the prosecution wondered if Greg was in shock or if he didn't want to put himself in harm's way.

Despite all these possibilities, Greg had no explanation, and while his testimony may have raised a lot of questions, it also sharpened the image of Scott's calculated methodical killing. He laid out details like how Scott seemed to be washing his hands in the kitchen, put on a pair of gloves, and even told his dog to be quiet, all before drowning his wife. After Greg spoke, Juan Martinez called a sleeping expert to the stand. They explained that based on what Greg had described, Scott must have been awake. According to the expert, Scott performed at least 65 actions that were uncommon for a sleepwalker. And they said that some of Scott's actions required fine motor skills that simply weren't characteristic of sleepwalking. This included quieting the dog, changing his clothes, stashing the evidence, and applying a band-aid. The experts also claim that even if Scott had started out asleep, his wife's cries or the freezing cold pool water probably would have woken him up.

And by that point, it seemed clear that Scott had, in fact, killed Yarmala, but the prosecution still couldn't come up with a strong potential motive. Still, Martinez tried his best to convince the jury that Scott and Yarmala's marriage had been struggling leading up to her death. He explained that Yarmala wasn't wearing her wedding ring when officers pulled her body from the pool. This alone wasn't that alarming. People take off their wedding rings all the time. But then Martinez called one of Scott's former colleagues to the stand who claimed that Scott had once complained about Yarmala's appearance. However, when the defense pushed further, Scott's colleague admitted things were being taken out of context. In reality, Scott had said that even if Yarmala wasn't considered conventionally attracted by some,

he thought she was beautiful. And just like that, it all circled back to whether Scott... wanted to kill his wife. When Scott's attorney, Michael Kimmerer, took the floor, he detailed Scott's long and troubling history with sleepwalking. Scott's mother and sister testified about the aggression and violence Scott displayed during his sleepwalking episodes when he was younger. They said they knew he never meant to behave that way and that he never remembered the things

he did. based on their claims, Kimmerer argued that Scott did murder his wife but that he truly didn't mean to. He was asleep the entire time and only woke up when officers shattered him from the bottom of the staircase. And Kimmerer had an expert witness of his own who could bolster that argument, a psychologist named Dr. Janet Tatman. According to Dr. Tatman, Scott's act, that night actually did fit the profile of a sleepwalker, especially since there was more to the story. The whole timeline involves Scott trying to fix the pool filter before he went to bed.

The altercation between him and Yarmla broke out almost immediately after he entered a sleepwalking state. But according to Dr. Tatman, Scott likely entered the sleepwalking state, then went back outside. to try to fix the filter again. Just like when he was awake, he used his hunting knife to try to loosen the rusty piece of equipment, and just like before, he gave up. At some point, Yarmala woke up and noticed her husband wasn't in bed. She probably hurt him outside, so she went downstairs to check on him. But when she approached him, Scott became frightened and attacked her. Tatman explained that sudden confrontations can trigger violent episodes in sleepwalkers. And Scott wasn't the only person to lash out like this while unconscious.

Kimmerer explained that about 12 years earlier in 1987, a Canadian man named Kenneth Parks had killed his mother-in-law and attacked his father-in-law while sleepwalking, then turned himself in. Parks was eventually acquitted. Kimmerer wasn't just telling the story to Garner's sympathy for Scott. He actually called in one of the experts from the Park's case. Dr. Roger Broughton testified on Scott's behalf. Broughton said many sleepwalkers can perform coordinated and complex actions. He gave examples of sleepwalkers who climbed under rooftops without losing their balance.

According to Dr. Broughton, Scott's behavior was even simpler. Many sleepwalkers are known to navigate familiar spaces, avoiding furniture and other obstacles. So Scott telling his dog to keep quiet also wasn't unusual. Dr. Broughton even had an explanation for why Scott stashed everything in the trunk of his Volvo. He wasn't hiding evidence. He was going through another set. of familiar motions. His kids said he regularly kept his work clothes and tools in the trunk. Dr. Broughton was definitely convincing, but Scott's lawyer seemed to realize his testimony wouldn't

matter unless they believe Scott really was asleep when he killed Yarmala. So they called neuroscientist and professor Dr. Rosalind Cartwright to the stand. She explained that sleep sleepwalkers possess a genetic defect in the brain that affects the transition from deep sleep into dreaming sleep. Apparently, both of Scott's children were known to possess this trait. In a way, the defense was implying that Scott's actions on the night of his wife's death were inevitable, like there was a glitch inside of him that was always going to lead him down this dark path. After listening to everyone pick apart his brain for nearly a month, it was finally Scott's turn to speak.

He addressed the court on June 16, 1999. He began by saying he understood the jury's dilemma. He said that initially even he questioned the sleepwalking defense. He kept thinking that maybe Yarmala had died because of a burglary gone wrong. But with no evidence for that explanation, he had to accept reality, which was why he'd volunteered to do something called a polysomnia, also known as a sleep study. The test measured Scott's brainwaves and muscle action over four nights of sleep. It was his way of proving to himself whether he had really killed Yarmala in his sleep.

Scott's test results showed reduced slow wave activity, which meant his brain wasn't getting as much deep sleep as it should. At the time of Yarmelah's death, he was losing sleep because of his stress at work. That made his brain more unstable at night and more likely to slip into a sleepwalking episode. In addition to his sleep study results, Scott said he'd been diagnosed with something known as non-insane automatism. This is a state of sleep in which a person has no control over their actions. Once Scott learned these things about himself, it was like he woke up and saw the truth of what happened to his wife.

In the end, Scott's grief was all he had left. To him, all the scientific jargon and diagnoses were beside the point. He expressed his utter devastation at the loss of his wife and said her murder would haunt him forever. He loved Yarmala more than anything, and he didn't know what to do without her. His eyes were filled with tears as he described dreaming about her every night. He hurt for his children too, who would now have to grow up without a mother and possibly without a father. As he spoke, Scott looked at his children from the stand. He begged the judge and the jury to let him reunite with them.

After Scott delivered his emotional testimony, it was time for jurors to decide his fate. On June 25, 1999, after six weeks of testimony, the jury convened for eight hours. In the end, Scott's, emotional outpouring couldn't change his fate. He was found guilty of first-degree murder. The verdict wasn't a surprise, but what happened next was, apparently the judge had received dozens of letters over the last few weeks. Scott's and Yarmala's friends, family and congregation had written about his good character.

Yarmala's mom even asked that his life be spared. But it was Megan and Michael's letters that influenced the judge the most. They begged to save their father's life. Thanks to them, Scott avoided the death penalty and was sentenced to life without parole. Over the years, Scott's lawyers have filed multiple appeals, and they argued that new developments in sleep science could offer more proof that Scott had no control over his actions, but it seems like the courts still think Scott is a danger to society. Every request for an appeal has been denied.

Today, Scott remains at the Yuma Prison Complex in San Luis, Arizona, where he teaches professional development courses to fellow inmates. He even created a program that helps incarcerated people prepare for reintegration into society. Meanwhile, Michael and Megan, have gone on to lead fulfilling lives. Megan is a respected historian, serving as an awards chair

for a well-known historical association. Michael is a successful attorney in Nevada. Michael has spoken to the press a few times, expressing how much he misses his mother. He says he wishes she could be with the family today and that she could have met his own children. The case of Scott, Flater is a haunting one. It forces us to consider what our own minds are capable of. If it's

true that Scott was asleep when he killed his wife, it means that the boundary between our waking selves and our unconscious minds might be thinner than we ever believed, or that monsters can exist anywhere whether we realize it or not. Thanks so much for listening. I'm Carter Roy, and this is Murder True Crime Stories. Thanks again to my guest, Payne Lindsay, for joining me. And remember coming up, we have our extended conversation. Murder True Crime Stories is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios.

Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on social media at Crimehouse on TikTok and Instagram. Don't forget to rate, review, and follow Murder True Crime Stories wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference. And to enhance your Murder True Crime Stories listening experience, subscribe to Crimehouse Plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode early and ad-free. We'll be back on Tuesday.

Murder True Crime Stories is hosted by me, Carter Roy, and is a Crimehouse original powered by Pave Studios. This episode was brought to life by the murder true crime stories team. Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benadon, Natalie Protofsky, Lori Maranelli, Emma Lehman, Sarah Camp, and Russell Nash. Thank you for listening. Thanks again for listening to today's episode. As promised, Payne and I are going to discuss the case a little bit more in-depth

and get into why this one has left such an imprint on both of us. Yeah, so before we dive into sort of the legal side of the case, have you ever experienced sleepwalking or know someone who has? And if so, does it feel scary? I mean, thankfully, I have not slept walk, at least that I know of. No one's told me I have. I have had a couple weird things happen. I mean, are you familiar with sleep paralysis? Yes. And that kind of thing. Yes. So I've never had the traditional sleep paralysis, but there was a couple of times. this happened where I was really stressed and tired and hadn't slept in a long time. And I would lay, I laid down to go to sleep one night. All of a sudden, I heard what sounded audibly to me like the loudest train horn I've ever heard inside the room.

It was an actual auditory thing. And I snapped out of bed. I was like, oh my God, terrified me. Went back to sleep again. Happened again. I literally didn't sleep the whole night because I was terrified. height of that sound happening to me again. I ended up looking it up later and I think it's called exploding head syndrome. What? And it's this thing where sometimes when you fall asleep or right

before you fall asleep, you'll hear some kind of really loud noise and your brain interprets it as real. And I also read that one of the ways to prevent it is to not sleep on your back or something, which is how I preferred to sleep. So for a long time, I was really terrified to sleep on my back. I do now, but if I ever feel myself in that really tired state and I'm on my back, it was honestly so terrifying that I don't ever want to experience it again, and I'll sleep on my side forever if I have to. Wow, right, right, really, yeah, kind of got to your traumatic.

I mean, this is so small potatoes, but so funny it happened. Today, I was awake. I kind of dream about it, and I was like, There's some bugs, and it wasn't a bad dream. It was like, oh, this is interesting. And then in the dream, I was outside walking around. I looked down at a bug on my arm. And I was like, ugh.

You know, and so like, in the dream, I'm startled pushed away. I realized that my cat had just been sleeping by my side. And I'd fully knocked it. You know, like, in my like, get off of me, bug. I'd fully hit him because he's looking at me like, what, dude? Why did you just swat me? And, you know, obviously, it's not a big deal. He's fine.

But you're like, oh, that's not even sleepwalking. That's just a tiny thing. but it shows like your mind thinks you're doing one thing, perfectly capable of doing something that you don't feel responsible for. Right. You were probably already having a weird dream, and then your cat nicked your arm a little bit, and then that became a part of your dream, and now you have these bugs,

and then you see the bug. Your cat probably touched you again, and then you wake up, oh, that's a weird series of events. Totally, and that's, you know, can happen anytime. And then if you think about in Scott's case, he's, like, stressed, exhausted, has been leading up to the murder. And I mean, how much do you think that that probably plays a part,

like the lack of sleep and exhaustion in that state? I mean, I guess really, and I think this is probably how it played out in trial too, I mean, at least in the court of public opinion, is he just saying this or did he really not remember doing this? Either one is concerning, right? if this was premeditated and he killed his wife. I mean, he did, that's the thing. He did kill his wife.

We know that. So it's, did he intend to? And then it kind of opens the conversation more like existentially. Like if someone didn't intend to do something, is it the same thing? But then on the other side of the coin, if someone's capable of killing people when they're sleeping, that's not really safe for everybody either or anyone. Yeah, I mean, I think of you being like, okay, I can't sleep on my back. If this is what's going to happen, be like, yeah, well, if you're going to kill somebody,

probably shouldn't be maybe sleeping in public, right? There's that question. Right? Yeah. I mean, do we, does he get out of prison and get a new wife? And does that happen again? I mean, that, like, truly, it's totally. Like, if you can't control it.

And it does, like, it's like, oh, it might change how I feel about how I think of him, like a premeditated murder versus an accident of that kind. It's like, oh, I feel differently. but societally are the consequences that different. I'm like, well, is this person a danger to society? And clearly, yes, you know, this did happen regardless of what event. And if you were sitting on the jury now that you know everything, yeah, what do you think you would have done? I mean, it's tough.

I mean, if I try to imagine, I mean, this is a horrible imagination here, but if I tried to imagine myself in his shoes where I did something that awful, and I really didn't know I did that, and I did it to someone I loved. I would feel so terrible about that. It would just be the worst, and then to be punished for it again and ruin my life too.

My life would already be ruined, and now I'm just behind bars too. Yeah, it's tough because the moral side of me wants to feel a little bit bad for him if in fact it's true that he didn't know he did this and it's some freak incident. But at the same time, that's a dangerous condition he has. And I don't know if that enters the realm of some sort of psychiatric medical diagnosis, probably.

And maybe that would play differently today in 2026. but either way, he's capable of killing his wife and not knowing it. So what else? Right, how different. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's premeditated and then there's not knowing. Like, oh, how much better is it to not know you're doing it, but still do it. Yeah.

And, I mean, I found it fascinated. You know, what the neighbor sees. You know, it's like, and again, I'm not an expert. I know very little about it. So it's not like, I know, but it's. so I can imagine like, okay, maybe there's a sleepwalking scenario and like clearly has some history of maybe acting. It seems that his system is maybe suppressing some things from childhood.

So the violence comes out then. But then the like the putting clothes in the car, the meticulous nature of the aftermath. You're like, can you really sleep through all of that? Is there a moment? Is it possible that he was sleepwalking? And then it was like, oh no, what have I done? Now I want to cover it up. Even though I didn't premeditated.

Like that line is so blurry. It gets so hard to feel what one should feel right about. Right. I mean, when I think of sleepwalking as a non-expert on this, I think of waking up in the middle of the night and going to the fridge and grabbing something to eat or something. And even that being a bizarre series of events of knowing how to get there. And, you know, am I seeing things consciously and like,

registering that or is it more of a I remember how to get there because I do it all the time from my bed to the refrigerator. The whole going outside and basically committing a murder and going through the act of cleaning things up, that's just that's a lot of steps whether you're sleepwalking or not. Completely. No, and I find it fascinating that like, right, the experts, you know, obviously the prosecution's like, yeah, that's outside the zone of like, oh, I just accidentally went to the fridge to get a sandwich. And then others are like, well, if it's putting clothes away, you know, I guess it goes to like how deep the condition kind of goes, which I think kind of back to your point, it's like, well, if it goes that deeply, that you can do that many things without

knowing that's a real danger if someone's just like I might. That's essentially like, well, I could just black out for an extended period of time and operate and how responsible I am for those actions in there. I mean, if this were to happen, to a loved one of mine, I would not accept the idea of, oh, he didn't mean to, so let's just drop it. You know what I mean? It's okay. Just because you didn't mean to, you still did and you're still capable of doing it probably again, especially if you didn't mean to.

I know, and I feel so much for his kids, too, who I know are, you know, out in the world and have to live with it both because, you know, it's like, wow, if you really didn't, you know, if it was an accident, like, they lost their mother. and their father and their family and one night. And at the same time, you can't, you can't, yeah, look away from what he did and be like, oh, well, for the sake of the kids, we let him go. And, yeah, to your point, is he, is he, what danger is he posed still? Especially if the condition is a suppression that leads to it, like, well, now it's going to be

suppressed. There's even more, yeah. And I know it's a real thing. I've seen videos of people who have confirmed sleep. walking disorders. I mean, I've seen them on TikTok and stuff, or they'll post a night vision camera of themselves walking around at night doing weird things, nothing violent, but stuff that they don't recall in the morning. You know, I think for me, I'd be curious your thoughts.

Like, I sort of feel like the certainly taking the death penalty off seemed reasonable in case he really was sleepwalking. It's like, okay, you're in prison, you know, a murder's been committed. we're not letting somebody get away with it, but a little bit of a middle ground maybe. Right. I mean, try to find like a more benign analogy for this. Let's say that I was driving a car sober and I swerved to not hit a deer and then I accidentally hit a pedestrian and they died. That would be a mistake on my part.

I did that. I didn't mean to do that. and there was nothing I did illegal to have influenced me. A little bit cleaner of a scenario there. But to go murder someone is a completely different ballpark. Yeah, totally. You're not swerving from a deer than pulling out a knife. Like one's an accident, and you can understand how that could have accidentally happened,

even though I was the cause of the death. Accidentally, this, you know, murder is rarely an accident, or is it ever an accident? That is, I think, the very heart of this case that every listener will have to grapple with on their own. And, well, thank you so much, Payne, for joining today and coming on the show and giving us some insights and, yeah, being a part of this case. Of course. Hopefully, you don't have any sleepwalking incidents anytime soon. And let me know if you have any more bug stories. I will, yeah, keep those train noises quiet, lay on the side. And if today's conversation got you thinking, you'll definitely want to check out Up and Vanished.

Pain takes a deep investigative approach to cold cases, often uncovering new details and perspectives along the way. You can follow it wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks, Carter. I had a great time, man. Thank you. Hi, it's Carter. If you love murder, true crime stories, check out the new Crime House original about disappearances. The Final Hours hosted by Samp.

Sarah Turney and Courtney Nicole. Listen and follow the final hours on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes drop every Monday.