Murder: True Crime Stories - UNSOLVED: The Murder of JFK's Lover 1

Episode Date: March 25, 2025

In the early 1960s, Washington, D.C. socialite Mary Pinchot Meyer seemed to have it all: a fabulous home, a successful CIA agent husband, and a close group of friends that included the President of th...e United States, John F. Kennedy. But Mary’s life wasn’t as perfect as it seemed, and after her marriage fell apart, she found comfort in a new lover: the president himself. When Mary was found dead in 1964, the public wondered: did the US government have something to do with her murder? Murder: True Crime Stories is a Crime House Original. For more, follow us on all social media, @crimehouse To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Starting point is 00:00:00 This is Crime House. No matter who you are or where you're from, one thing is true. Sometimes you have to go through some serious trauma to find yourself. And no one knew that better than Mary Pinschow Meyer. In the mid-1900s, Washington, D.C. was a boys' club. Important decisions were made by men in smoke-filled parlors, while their wives gossiped in the powder room. At one point, Mary was one of those ladies. But after a toxic marriage and the death of her son left Mary heartbroken, she picked
Starting point is 00:00:50 up the pieces and moved on. By the early 1960s, she was on the cusp of reinventing herself. She dropped acid, experimented with radical therapies, she even took on a lover, the President of the United States himself, John F. Kennedy. But just as Mary was finally turning the corner, her life was cut short. To this day, no one knows if her death was an accident or an assassination? People's lives are like a story. There's a beginning, a middle, and an end.
Starting point is 00:01:40 But you don't always know which part you're on. Sometimes the final chapter arrives far too soon, and we don't always get to know the real ending. I'm Carter Roy, and this is Murder True Crime Stories, a Crime House original show powered by Pave Studios. Every Tuesday, I'll explore the story of a notorious murder or murders. I'll be bringing awareness to stories that need to be heard, with a focus on those who are impacted.
Starting point is 00:02:11 And for more true crime stories that all happened this week in history, check out Crime House, the show. Each episode covers multiple cases unified by the same theme. So every week, you get something a little different. At Crime House, we want to express our gratitude to you, our community, for making this possible. Please support us by rating, reviewing, and following Murder True Crime Stories wherever
Starting point is 00:02:38 you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly matters. And to enhance your Murder True Crime Stories listening experience, subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode ad-free, and instead of having to wait for each episode of a two-part series, you'll get access to both at once, plus exciting bonus content. This is the first of two episodes on the 1964 murder of 43-year-old artist and Washington DC socialite Mary Pinchot Meyer. Today I'll introduce you to Mary. I'll walk you through her privileged childhood and transition from outspoken journalist to the wife of a CIA agent. When her marriage fell apart in the late 1950s, Mary decided to devote herself to her true
Starting point is 00:03:31 passion, art. But before she could fully find herself, somebody murdered her in cold blood. Next time, I'll take you through Mary's winding murder investigation. What initially seemed like an open and shut case was turned on its head when a new theory emerged. One that connected Mary's death to the highest levels of the US government. All that and more coming up. I've got some exciting news. Crime House Studios is launching a new original show called Killer Minds.
Starting point is 00:04:15 Hosted by licensed forensic psychologist Dr. Tristan Engels and Crime House's Vanessa Richardson, each episode features a deep dive into the psychology of a notorious murderer. From serial killers to cult leaders, deadly exes and spree killers. Killer Minds is a Crime House Studios original. New episodes drop every Monday and Thursday. Follow wherever you get your podcasts. details at phys.ca. When you let aerotruffle bubbles melt, everything takes on a creamy, delicious, chocolatey glow. Like that pile of laundry.
Starting point is 00:05:09 You didn't forget to fold it. Nah, it's a new trend. Wrinkled cheek. Feel the aerobubbles melt. It's mind-bubbling. In the late 1800s, the Gilded Age completely transformed America. With rapid expansion and industrialization, urban centers like New York City boomed, the
Starting point is 00:05:34 upper and middle classes grew, and so did the need for specific commodities, including high-quality wallpaper. A New Yorker named James Pinchot took advantage of this opening. In the late 1800s, he grew his family general store into a wallpaper empire. In the process, he became a millionaire. James funneled those profits into the logging industry, and by the time his granddaughter Mary was born in 1920, the Pinchot family was incredibly wealthy. As one of four children, Mary and her siblings knew nothing but luxury growing up. During the winter, the family lived in their Park Avenue apartment in New York City,
Starting point is 00:06:26 in their Park Avenue apartment in New York City, hosting dinner parties for the city's elite. In the summers, the Pinchos vacationed at Grey Towers, the Pennsylvania State Mary's grandfather had built in the middle of a 3,600-acre forest. There, the children passed the days by horseback riding, swimming, and playing tennis. Still, while the Pinchos enjoyed enormous privilege, their wealth was matched by a deep sense of civic responsibility. Mary's dad, Amos, was a lawyer who used his family money to help create the American Civil Liberties Union. He spent his life fighting the evils
Starting point is 00:07:05 of big business and corporate monopolies. Meanwhile, Mary's mom Ruth was a journalist for The Nation and the New Republic magazines. It was especially impressive considering few women had careers at all in that era. Amos and Ruth encouraged their children to follow suit and become independent free thinkers, which meant getting them the best education money could buy. Sometime around 1932, when Mary was 12, she started at a private girls' school on the upper east side called Brearley. Back then, most elite girls' schools were focused on preparing young women to become partners to brilliant men. Instead, Brearley took what was considered a radical approach and focused on preparing female students
Starting point is 00:07:59 for meaningful careers. It was a perfect fit for Mary. She excelled in her classes and had a great group of friends. By her senior year, Mary was attending a whirlwind of debutante balls as boys vied for her attention. At one dance, she could barely get a word into her date because a handsome young man named John F. Kennedy kept asking her to dance. But Mary's world as she knew it soon came to a halt. In 1938, when Mary was 17, her older sister Rosamund died by suicide.
Starting point is 00:08:39 Everyone was shocked, but Mary's dad took Rosamund's death the hardest. Mary spent the summer before college trying to comfort Amos however she could, but eventually the summer came to an end, and it was time for Mary to go off to college. In the fall of 1938, 18-year-old Mary started at her mom's alma mater, Vassar Women's College in upstate New York. She made a few good friends while she was there, but after her sister's death, Mary had changed.
Starting point is 00:09:15 She wasn't the happy-go-lucky girl she once was. Instead of spending her free time socializing, Mary preferred to be alone. One acquaintance called her a quote, independent soul. Her behavior might have had to do with her family. Not only were they still grieving Rosamund, but Amos was struggling. After her death, he fell into a deep depression and in 1942, during Mary's senior year, he tried to take his own life as well. The topic of suicide was heavily stigmatized, which meant Mary couldn't really talk to
Starting point is 00:09:54 anyone about what was going on, so she kept her pain a secret, even from her closest friends. Life only became more hectic as World War II ramped up, and the U.S. officially joined the fight in December 1941. By the time 22-year-old Mary graduated from Vassar the following spring, the war was in full swing, and with it came some unexpected opportunities. Since most young men had been shipped off to the front lines, it opened up more jobs for the women left behind, including Mary. After graduating, she decided to follow in her mom's footsteps and become a journalist.
Starting point is 00:10:42 Soon she started writing a column for the United Press. Mary's colleagues described her as defiant and fearless. Like her mom, Mary didn't shy away from controversy. She wrote about things like sexually transmitted infections and sex education, topics that most people didn't even discuss until the sexual revolution in the 60s. But Mary was interested in more than just the risque. Among her group of friends, she was known as a serious thinker. Like Amos, who was an outspoken critic of war and interventionism, Mary was deeply concerned
Starting point is 00:11:23 about geopolitics. It wasn't long until she met someone who knew the importance of these issues first hand. In 1944, when Mary was 24, she met a handsome Marine lieutenant named Cord Meyer. Cord was the same age as Mary and had a similar background as her, too. He was Ivy League educated and came from a wealthy East Coast family. When Mary met him, he'd just returned from serving in the South Pacific and was still getting used to his new glass eye. Shrapnel from a Japanese grenade had shredded his old one and nearly killed him. But Cord considered himself lucky, since the marine next to him had died instantly.
Starting point is 00:12:17 From that day forward, he swore he'd never let his fellow servicemen's deaths be in vain. The only fight he'd take up from now on was the fight for peace. Mary was immediately attracted to Cord's passion and conviction. Soon they were staying up late into the night talking about the meaning of life, death, and their hopes for a better future. Even though the war was still raging, there was reason to be hopeful. Around the time Cord and Mary got together in September 1944, the United Nations was being created. The UN's goal was to ensure a global conflict like World War II never happened again. If Cord wanted to fight for world peace, this seemed like the best place to start. The first ever UN conference was set to take place on
Starting point is 00:13:13 April 25, 1945 in San Francisco, and one of the delegates for the US needed an assistant. Ahead of the conference, Cord traveled from New York to Washington, D.C. to interview for the position. But before Cord went in for the interview, he called Mary. He had a very important question. If he landed the job, he knew it might change things between them. He'd be busier and traveling a lot. He wanted to know if the woman he loved was in it for the long haul.
Starting point is 00:13:51 Cord proposed to Mary then and there over the phone, and she said yes. Sure enough, Cord landed the job, but there wasn't much time to celebrate. Less than a week later, Mary and Cord left for the conference. Little did the couple know, the dream that had brought them together was about to tear them apart. Hey everyone, it's Carter with an exciting update. Crime House Studios is launching a new original show called Killer Minds. Hosted by licensed forensic psychologist Dr. Tristan Engels and Crime House's Vanessa Richardson, each episode of Killer Minds features a deep dive into the psychology of a notorious murderer. From infamous serial killers to
Starting point is 00:14:46 ruthless cult leaders, deadly exes and terrifying spree killers. Along with Vanessa's immersive storytelling full of high stakes twists and turns, Dr. Engels will be providing expert analysis of the people involved. Not just how they killed, but why. Killer Minds is a Crime House Studios original. New episodes drop every Monday and Thursday. Follow wherever you get your podcasts. Not many newlyweds would consider a work trip to be the perfect honeymoon, but Mary and Cord Meyer weren't most couples.
Starting point is 00:15:34 After the two were married on April 19, 1945, they left for the first ever United Nations conference in San Francisco. Cord had high hopes for the UN. After seeing friends die in front of him during the war, he was desperate for another way to solve global conflicts. But almost as soon as he and Mary got to the conference, Cord realized the people at the UN weren't different from other politicians. He watched as attendees made backdoor deals and lobbied colleagues for favors. It's not clear if Mary shared Cord's pessimism about the organization, but she probably had a better time at the conference than he did
Starting point is 00:16:19 because she ran into an old friend, John F. Kennedy. The schoolboy who tried to steal her away for a dance was now an up-and-coming politician. But Mary and John didn't have much time to catch up. As the conference came to a close, Cord got a terrible phone call. His twin brother Quentin had been killed in Okinawa, Japan. It should have been a happy time. Mary was six months pregnant and looking to the future, but Quentin's death cast a dark shadow on her and Cord's life. While Cord sank into a deep depression, While Cord sank into a deep depression, Mary was left to deal with the logistics of their growing family all on her own. But Mary wasn't one to sit idly by.
Starting point is 00:17:13 She encouraged Cord to channel his grief into action, and before long, he found a new cause to fight for. After becoming disillusioned with the UN, Cord set his sights on a different organization, the United World Federalists. The mission statement was to create a world government, one that was more effective, transparent, and accountable than any single country could be on its own. When 26-year-old Mary gave birth to their son Quentin in 1946, named for Cord's late brother, Cord was more motivated than ever. He spent the next year spreading the word about the UWF, and in May 1947, all his efforts
Starting point is 00:18:02 paid off. That month, Cord was elected the organization's president. Just a few months later, the Meyers' second son, Michael, was born. Sadly, Cord wasn't the most hands-on father. As president of the UWF, Cord was constantly traveling for work. At one point, a friend joked that Cord probably didn't even know how old his sons were. It must have taken a toll on Mary, but she refused to show anything but support for Cord. After all, she was also a believer in his cause.
Starting point is 00:18:41 Still, it meant Mary had to put her own ambitions on hold. Mary completely devoted herself to her children. After the birth of their second child, she gave up her journalism career and became a stay-at-home mom. The only thing she did for herself was take a few art classes here and there. When 30-year-old Mary gave birth to their third son, Mark, in 1950, life only became more hectic. Through it all, Mary held onto hope that the UWF would start a New World Order. But despite her faith in the organization, Cord was becoming less certain that peace was possible. It was hard to argue for a united global government when the world had split in two.
Starting point is 00:19:34 East vs. West. Communism vs. Capitalism. Lines were being drawn, and Cord started to think that maybe a cold war was one battle worth fighting for. And there was one organization that seemed poised to bring the US and its allies to victory, the Central Intelligence Agency. Thanks to Cord's family connections, it wasn't too difficult for him to get in touch with the man in charge,
Starting point is 00:20:05 Deputy Director Alan Dulles. Before long, Cord landed a coveted interview with the agency. Dulles offered Cord a job on the spot. But there was a catch. The position was so top secret The position was so top secret, he couldn't even tell Cord what it was until he accepted. Cord didn't hesitate. Whatever the CIA was doing, he wanted in. If 31-year-old Mary had any questions or concerns about her husband becoming a government agent, she didn't show it. By this point, she'd been a stay-at-home mom for four years. Her feelings about the CIA weren't clear, but it seemed like Mary was willing to follow Cord wherever he went.
Starting point is 00:20:58 So in 1951, the Myers packed up their family and moved from New York City to Washington, D.C. To succeed in the CIA during the Cold War, a man needed certain qualities. For example, a hatred of communism, a flexible interpretation of the law, and an appreciation for good scotch. It was just a matter of time until Cord Meyer had all three. Being in the CIA must have been thrilling, initially at least. While Dulles couldn't tell Cord what his actual job title was during the interview,
Starting point is 00:21:40 it quickly became clear. Cord was a spy. Mainly he was tasked with infiltrating academic groups and labor unions and steering them toward capitalist ideals. Whether that meant taking over leadership, bribing the group, or keeping tabs on people who sounded like dissidents, well, it was all in the name of keeping the country safe. Officially, Cord's department was called the Department of Plans. Unofficially, it was called the Dirty Tricks Department.
Starting point is 00:22:18 But Mary didn't know any of that. While she was aware Cord was in the CIA, his role as a spy was confidential. It's not clear if Mary ever caught on, but given how clever she was, it's hard to believe she didn't have at least some idea of what Cord was doing. Either way, when they first moved to DC, it seemed like things were going well for the Meyer family Although cord was still busy at work. He was able to spend more time at home with Mary and the boys plus they gained a new set of familiar neighbors a little while after the Myers came to DC John F Kennedy and his wife Jackie moved in next door
Starting point is 00:23:10 for whatever reason, Cord and John didn't get along, but Mary and Jackie hit it off right away. Beyond the Kennedys, the Myers built a tight-knit circle of friends. The group included James Angleton, chief of counterintelligence at the CIA, James Truitt, an eccentric journalist for Newsweek, and his wife Anne, an accomplished sculptor. Anne introduced Mary to DC's thriving art community, and before long, Mary was at every gallery opening in the city. She started taking art classes from a professor at American University and befriended some of the abstract expressionists.
Starting point is 00:23:48 Friend said Mary quote, came alive when talking about the arts. But Mary's bliss was short-lived, because in August 1953, Cord was faced with a major predicament at work. He was accused of being a double agent. Cord was told the FBI had been investigating him for months. Because of his ties to the UWF and their desire to create a world government, Cord was thought to be a communist sympathizer. He was forced to resign until the investigation was complete and he was cleared. Or worse, blacklisted. To Mary, this was all one big misunderstanding. The idea that her husband ever worked with
Starting point is 00:24:40 the Reds was laughable. She told Cord to relax until it all blew over. Cord didn't see it that way. He was outraged. After everything he'd worked for, being accused of something like this was humiliating. Still, Mary was right. Three months later he was cleared of all charges. Even then, Cord didn't calm down. In fact, the experience radicalized him. He vowed that no one would ever question his loyalty again. After his brush with the FBI, Cord became extremely paranoid. His co-workers said he became anti-communist to an alarming degree.
Starting point is 00:25:31 Accusing people left and right of sympathizing with the Soviet Union, he started drinking a lot and his temper flared. Cord had always been argumentative, but now he was literally jabbing his fingers into people's chests once he lunged across a dinner table to strangle a man. Not only was his behavior embarrassing, but it was exhausting to live with. By 1954, 34-year-old Mary was losing patience and preferred to paint in her studio rather than spend time with her husband. Eventually though, she couldn't get far enough away from Cord.
Starting point is 00:26:14 Mary needed a break. Her younger sister, Toni, was also going through a rough patch in her marriage. So in the summer of 1954, the sisters decided to head to Italy for a getaway. Mary and Tony probably went to Europe hoping to lose themselves in the beauty of the Italian countryside. Instead, Mary fell into the arms of a handsome Italian man. He was warm, carefree, and gentle. Qualities cord seemed to have lost a long time ago.
Starting point is 00:26:50 Mary's sister also had her own summer romance. Their mutual friend, Washington Post reporter Ben Bradley, happened to be in Europe at the time, and he and Tony connected. Tony and Ben remained close after that, and when Mary returned home to DC, she continued to distance herself from Cord. She spent more and more time taking art classes and continued to exchange love letters with a man from Italy. Cord suspected something had changed after Mary's trip, but he was too busy obsessing over work to press the issue. By the fall, Mary knew she had to make a change.
Starting point is 00:27:33 She confided in her friends, James and Ann Truitt, that she was thinking of leaving Cord. The Truitts had seen how Mary's marriage was falling apart. They told her it was time to tell Cord the truth for both of their sakes. On Mary's 36th birthday, October 14, 1956, she sat Cord down. She told him she wanted a divorce and custody of the kids. Cord flat out refused. Despite everything, he insisted they could still make things work. Mary pleaded with him, but Cord was firm, so Mary agreed to give him another chance. But there was no rescuing their relationship. there was no rescuing their relationship. By the end of 1956, Mary and Cord were so unhappy together, it must have seemed like nothing could make their marriage worse.
Starting point is 00:29:07 Then the unthinkable happened, and Mary's life changed forever. all day about streamlining manufacturing processes. Because at Desjardins Business, we speak the same language you do, business. So join the more than 400,000 Canadian entrepreneurs who already count on us and contact Desjardins today. We'd love to talk business. Do you love stories about con artists and scammers, people pretending to be someone they're not? I'm Javier Leyva, the host of Pretend, the podcast where I interview real con artists and uncover why they do what they do. Like the family, who claimed that they were being stalked, only to find out that the messages
Starting point is 00:29:38 were coming from their own house. Yeah, they were the stalkers. It's ridiculous when I get death threats about him wanting to go and blow my husband's head off, and then I get accused of having a split personality and maybe you're doing it and you don't realize it, that's ridiculous. Or the true crime author accused of harassing the very same victims that she was writing about. I am being honest with you. I am not. Fetish master. I don't know what to say,
Starting point is 00:30:07 but I am being completely honest with you. I don't know what's going on. These are real people with real stories. If you love podcasts with a good twist, subscribe to Pretend wherever you're listening to right now. Pretend. Stories about real people pretending to be someone else. and stories about real people pretending to be someone else. On December 18, 1956, Marion Cordmire's middle son, nine-year-old Michael, was hit and killed by a car. With Michael's death came the death of Mary's marriage. Shattered by grief and unwilling to take on the burdens of a man she no longer loved,
Starting point is 00:30:48 Mary separated from Cord less than a year later. By 1958, the divorce was finalized. After thirteen years, 38-year-old Mary was officially starting over. It was a bitter sweet moment for Mary. It took a tragedy to convince Core to let her move on, but now she was finally free. With her two remaining sons away at boarding school, Mary moved into her own townhouse in the Georgetown neighborhood of Washington, D.C. With the money from the divorce and her
Starting point is 00:31:25 trust fund, Mary didn't have to worry about finding work, which left her plenty of time to get serious about her art. She enrolled in a class with famous abstract painter Ken Nolan, and what started as lessons about his color-field style technique, quickly turned into more intimate conversations. Before long, Mary and Ken were casually dating. They continued to see each other until 1959, before things fizzled out. After that, Mary and Ken stayed friends and kept panning together, and soon, Mary had another man taking up her time.
Starting point is 00:32:07 After the trip to Italy, Mary's sister Toni also divorced her husband, but her Italian fling with Washington Post reporter Ben Bradlee was more than a summer romance. Toni ended up marrying him. It just so happened that Ben was close with another one of Mary's friends, John F. Kennedy. Both Mary and John were regulars at Ben and Tony's dinner parties. Despite John's years-long marriage to Jackie, friends noticed he and Mary had a special kind of chemistry. They both had a wry sense of humor and a casual approach to the elite world they inhabited. And before long, their friendship extended all the way to the White House.
Starting point is 00:32:53 On January 20, 1961, John was sworn in as the President of the United States. With John and Jackie Kennedy at the helm, Washington, D.C. took on an air of sophistication. Jackie was famous for hosting elegant parties at the White House. Mary was always invited to these events, and the president was eager to turn their subtle flirtations into something more. According to sources, John first propositioned Mary at a party in November of 1961. Mary turned him down, but he wasn't going to let her go so easily. Ten weeks later, he called Mary and offered to send a White House limousine to pick her
Starting point is 00:33:39 up. This time, Mary didn't resist. Soon, she was in bed with the president. While most Americans had no idea about his womanizing ways, John's serial infidelity was an open secret in D.C. Usually there was an attempt to hide away John's girlfriends if they came to the White House, but Mary was a special case. White House aides would later say John seemed to trust Mary in a way he didn't with most people. He never
Starting point is 00:34:13 asked Mary to leave the room when he needed to be briefed on business, and he never shied away from telling her the truth. Between October 1961 and August 1963, Mary's name appeared 15 times in the White House logs and, according to Mary's friend James Truitt, Mary saw John at least 30 times during this period. But it seems like after the summer of 1963, things between them came to an end. Still, Mary maintained a genuine relationship with him and Jackie. She continued going to White House events. It seemed like she'd become a true friend of the Kennedy family. But all of those fancy dances and dinner parties came to an abrupt end on November 22nd, 1963,
Starting point is 00:35:06 when John F. Kennedy was assassinated. Mary, along with the rest of the country, was in mourning. With John's death, Mary endured yet another loss. But this time she didn't let herself fall apart. another loss. But this time she didn't let herself fall apart. Since her divorce from Cord, Mary had regained much of the confidence and self-reliance she'd lost during her marriage. As the counterculture movement made more progress in the 60s, people started to turn to psychedelics to expand their horizons. Mary embraced the changing tides and leaned on mind-altering drugs like LSD to fully reinvent herself. She even befriended the leader of the psychedelic movement, Harvard
Starting point is 00:35:55 professor Timothy Leary. With her new lease on life, Mary started to take herself less seriously. Friends described her as courageous and foolhardy. She enjoyed skinny dipping, sunbathing nude, and one winter she went skating on thin ice across the local Old Chesapeake and Ohio Canal. By that point, Mary was very familiar with the C&O Canal. By 1964, at 43 years old, she developed a routine. She'd paint in the mornings, then walk along the path between the canal and the river in the afternoons.
Starting point is 00:36:34 By then, the area was overgrown and neglected, but Mary found beauty in the trees and wildlife around it. And unlike many other women in Georgetown, Mary wasn't afraid of the drifters who hung around the area. At around noon on October 12, 1964, Mary decided she was satisfied with the work she'd done on her most recent painting. She hung the canvas to dry, put on her favorite blue sweater, and left for her daily walk. But she wasn't the only person on the path that day.
Starting point is 00:37:12 And whoever was watching Mary was determined to make sure she never made it home alive. Thanks so much for listening. I'm Carter Roy and this is Murder True Crime Stories. Come back next week for part two of our series on the murder of Mary Pinchot-Meyer. Murder True Crime Stories is a CrimeHouse original powered by Pave Studios. Here at CrimeHouse, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on social media at CrimeHouse on Instagram. Don't forget to rate, review, and follow Murder True Crime Stories wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference.
Starting point is 00:38:07 And to enhance your Murder True Crime Stories listening experience, subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode ad-free, and instead of having to wait for each episode of a two-part series, you'll get access to both at once. Plus exciting Crime House bonus content. We'll be back next Tuesday. Murder True Crime Stories is hosted by me, Carter Roy, and is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. This episode was brought to life by the Murder True Crime Stories team Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benedon, Natalie Pertsofsky, Lori Marinelli, Sarah Carroll, Nick Gogger, Sheila Patterson, and Russell Nash. Thank you for listening.
Starting point is 00:39:07 What drives a person to murder? Find out from a licensed forensic psychologist on Killer Minds, the Crime House original podcast. New episodes drop every Monday and Thursday. Follow wherever you get your podcasts.

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