Murder With My Husband - 161. Jacqueline Bartlam - Fiction or Reality?

Episode Date: April 24, 2023

On this episode of MWMH, Payton and Garrett discuss 14-year-old Daniel Bartlam’s ability to murder his own mother for fun.  Rise N Crime Podcast: https://linktr.ee/risencrime Social Media links and Bonus episodes: https://linktr.ee/murderwithmyhusband Case Sources: BBC News, “Nottingham fire death: Boy ‘beat woman with hammer,’” no author provided, January 23, 2012   BBC News, “Nottingham fire death: Boy admits killing woman and burning body,” no author provided, January 31, 2012   BBC News, “Nottingham hammer death: Boy guilty of murder,” no author provided, February 9, 2012   BBC News, “Daniel Bartlam, 15, detained for mother’s hammer murder,” no author provided, April 2, 2012   Dailymail.co.uk, “Coronation Street killer was ‘fascinated by horror DVDs and violent games from age eight and it was all too easy for him to get hold of them,’ says victim’s former partner,” by Andy Dolan, April 2, 2012   Dailymail.co.uk, “Stepfather of Daniel Bartlam tells of teenager’s bizarre behavior before ‘Coronation Street’ killing,” by Ruth Styles, January 30, 2014   Mirror.co.uk, “Corrie copycat killer: Lad watched soap villain’s hammer murder then butchered mum the same way,” by Louie Smith, April 3, 2012   Mirror.co.uk, “Tragic mum beams as she’s pictured with Corrie killer son Daniel Bartlam – who would grow up to murder her,” by Ben Griffiths, February 14, 2013   Mirror.co.uk, “Mum of Coronation Street copycat killer could have been saved if she’d got son help,” by Martin Fricker, May 10, 2016   Nottinghampost.com, “The chilling story behind the Nottinghamshire boy who killed his own mum,” by Rebecca Sherdley, October 18, 2020   Nottinghampost.com, “Jacqueline Barlam murder: My agony over our grandson, 14, who killed his own mum,” by Nottingham Post, July 31, 2017   Nottinghampost.com, “When Nottingham’s most notorious criminals are due for release from prison,” by Rebecca Sherdley, August 14, 2021   The Evening Standard, “14-year-old boy charged with woman’s murder,” no author provided, April 28, 2011   The Guardian, “Teenager Daniel Bartlam jailed for killing mother with hammer,” by Sam Jones, April 2, 2012   Medium.com, “The Coronation Street Killer,” by Jacob Wilkins, January 7, 2021   Findagrave.com, Jacqueline Bryant Bartlam   Express.co.uk, “You were a special mum. I still miss you every day,” article by James Fielding, April 8, 2012   Crime Traveller, “Daniel Bartlam: A Teenage Boy Convicted of His Mother’s Murder,” by Fiona Guy, June 14, 2022   Dailystar.co.uk, “Fear Coronation Street ‘copycat killer’ who murdered mum at 14 could be FREED,” by Emily Hall, April 14, 2019   Google maps   IMDb.com   Assisted research and writing by Diane Birnholz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Yes, you energy, energy for everything. Cast the banner now to learn more. Hey everybody, welcome back to our podcast. This is Myrtle with my husband. I'm Peyton Moreland. No, I'm Garrett Moreland. And he's the husband. I'm the husband.

All right, we're just going to hop right into it. Just kidding. I just wanted to get everyone's attention because we have pretty big announcement. So when we were first starting the podcast, we actually did a two-part case on the Lori Valo case that was happening in Idaho. I would say it was our first case that was a huge deep dive

and it ended up just kind of being a pretty big case for us. We had my mom on and she was a fun little thing. She's actually the only guest we've ever had on Murder With my husband. Well, the Lori Valow and Chad daybell trials have started over in Idaho. And we have just been receiving tons of messages about what are the updates?

Are you gonna be covering the trial? Like listeners are wanting daily coverage. In general, in True Crime nowadays, there is something happening every single day. Whether it's update to cases, update to court cases, update to hearings, I mean anything. And it's actually been pretty hard for us to figure out, do we cover this case? Do we just stick to our regular murder with my husband episodes? So we just decided why not do both.

So surprise, oh no media, which is our network is actually dropping a new podcast to bring you not only updates on the Lori Valotryle, but just updates on True Crime News in general. And Peyton's mom will be hosting this. Of course, we wanted to keep it in the murder with my husband family and we are so excited. It will be twice a week updates on true crime news. So you no longer have to scroll through your TikTok for you page, looking for that next update on the hot new true crime case because my mom will be covering it for you over on rise and crime.

Our new podcast again, the new podcast is called rise and crime twice a week every Monday, every Thursday. The first episodes will drop May 1st, and it's going to be everything in true crime today. Again, hosted by my mom, and it will just be the place for you to go and check out what is happening in true crime news that week. The first episodes will actually be about Lori Valow. If so, if you want a recap and review of everything that's going on, then go check it out. There'll be links everywhere, whether that's in the description below on podcast and YouTube or descriptions on Instagram, any of our social medias, they will be there.

And on that note, because I tricked everyone, I think I would disregard my 10 seconds, and now we can jump right into it. All right, so our case sources for this murder with my husband episode are BBCNews, dailymail.co, mirror.co.uk, noddinghampost.com, the evening standard, the guardian, medium.com, findagrave.com, crime traveler, daily star, and express.co.uk. So this week, our case takes us across the Atlantic Ocean to England in Nottinghamshire. Now, Nottingham is the biggest city in Nottinghamshire, a non-coastal landlocked county in Central UK. This area of England is known as the East Midlands.

Now, one of Nottinghamshire's claims to fame is that it's the location of Sherwood Forest, home to the legendary Robin Hood. The heroic outlaw who would steal from the rich and give to the poor. The town of Red Hill is about four miles from the city of Nottingham and it's where our case takes place. It's a small suburban town with a population of only about 2,000 people. Now Red Hill is part of the larger town of Arnold. There's a quiet cul-de-sac in Red Hill called Georgia Drive, where the detached houses are close together side by side. It's a nice neighborhood for a family, quiet and safe, with fields close by.

So it's 2011, and the Bartlam family of three lives on that Georgia Drive cold assack in Red Hill Jacqueline Bryant Bartlem who goes by Jackie is the mom and she's 47 years old She's divorced and she lives with her two sons Daniel who's 14 and Dominic who's six Along with their family dog Meg now. She and her ex-husband Adrian divorced in 2005, shortly after Dominic was born. So she has custody of her two boys, although dad Adrian is still involved and picks up the boys for outings from time to time.

Now just to give a little background, Jackie Bryant and Adrian Bartlam got married when their older son Daniel was three years old. He's in the wedding photo, a cute little boy with a flower pinned to his chest just like his dad. The following year though, Jackie's family was struck by a terrible tragedy when Daniel was only four years old and Dominic hadn't even been born yet. Jackie's younger sister, Michelle, and Michelle's son, Mark, were killed in a car accident by a drunk driver. And unfortunately, this wouldn't be the last tragedy

in the family. In May of 2008, three years after the divorce, Jackie meets a new man named Simon Madders. They both are working for the land registry where Simon is a commercial manager. They hit it off and they begin a serious relationship. Simon will spend an increasing amount of time with Jackie and her two sons. His name is Simon matters. Because Simon matters.

No, I'm not going to make the joke. Keep going. I think you already did. So it's not clear if at this point Simon is living full time with Jackie and her boys in 2011, but in any event, he's spending a lot of time at their house on Georgia Drive. So it's the wee hours of April 25th, 2011. It's Easter Monday, which is a holiday in the UK. And like the name suggests, it's the day after Easter Sunday. Simon is out of town for two weeks on a business trip, leaving just mom and two boys home alone.

At a little after 1am that Easter Monday, the neighbors on Georgia Drive are awoken out of their slumber by the terrible sounds of children screaming. The neighbors rush to look out their windows and run outside to see that the Bartlem's house is fully ablaze. Older brother Daniel is outside the house yelling and screaming for help. He's holding his little six-year-old brother Dominic in his arms and Dominic is just wailing. Daniel is somehow also managing to hold the family's dog megh. So teenager Daniel is just completely saving the day with a child in one and a dog in the other. These houses on Georgia Drive like I said are all very tall and close together and flames

are shooting out from the right-hand bedroom of the Bartlem House upstairs. Neighbors call 999, this is the British equivalent to the US's 911, and firefighters arrive on the scene very quickly. The whole right side of the second floor of the Bartlems house is burning. Now while the firefighters are inside fighting to contain the fire, Daniel is urgently telling the neighbors that a masked intruder was just inside the house and that he's afraid the man has hurt his mom who's still in the house. Daniel says something about a hammer and that the intruder fled out of a window. While the house is on fire? Yes. Jackie's boys have made it out of the burning house,

but Jackie, like I said, is nowhere to be seen. The police are now arriving on Georgia Drive as well. While firefighters continue getting the fire under control and looking for Jackie, Daniel tells the police that he saw the man in the house. He says the intruder set the house on fire and that he might have heard his mother. Daniel has calmed down enough at this police that he saw the man in the house. He says the intruder set the house on fire and that he might have heard his mother. Daniel has calmed down enough at this point that he's able to tell him what happened. Jackie's parents, Daniel and Dominic's grandparents, get the middle of the night call that everyone dreads about a fire at their daughter's house and they rush to the house as well. They live pretty close and it's still a raging

fire when they get there. Grandma Shirley and Grandpa Jof see Daniel and Dominic outside. Younger brother Dominic is still crying at this point. Daniel then tells his grandma, again, he saw an intruder in the house and that he thought that this man had heard his mom. Grandma Shirley is begging and pleading with everyone for her daughter Jackie to be okay and for her to be rescued from the burning house. And you have to imagine like how stressful this is to have the boys and the dog outside but they're just looking around going mom is still inside the burning house. Please go in and get her. However though, Jackie couldn't

be saved. When they first went inside the house, the fire crews were shocked to find the body of a woman inside the right hand upstairs bedroom. This is the bedroom that seems to have been the epicenter of the fire. They don't immediately tell the family what they found, but after about three hours, the authorities tell Jackie's parents that Jackie's body has been found.

That's like a long time, I think. Daniel's grandparents take Daniel back to their house and the police accompany them. Meanwhile Dominic, who's only six, and the dog are taken to a different location to Jackie's sister's carols house. The police are heavily involved from the very beginning as they know this is no ordinary or accidental fire. Firefighters and police had discovered more than just Jackie's body. They had also found a hammer next to Jackie's burnt body. Okay. An investigation begins immediately into the source of the fire and into the identity of the intruder who did this. They talked to Daniel. They're only eyewitness at his grandparents house. And how old is

Daniel again? He's 14. Okay. that's right. So that's good then. He's definitely old enough to be able to participate this. Right. He says that he got up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom. And while doing that, he was confronted by the intruder inside of their home. The man, according to him, was wearing a mask over his face.

Different sources actually give slightly different accounts of what happens next according to Daniel, but apparently Daniel saw a hammer lying on the floor and threw it at the intruder to scare him off. Daniel says that he, Daniel, then runs to his mother's bedroom where he finds her there on the floor with her bedroom burning. So the attack had already happened when Daniel wakes up and the fire has already been started. According to the Daily Mail, he said he panicked and fled with his brother and their dog.

So Daniel is essentially a hero for going and waking up his little brother, scooping him up and getting the dog and getting outside. Jackie's body is burned so badly that it had to be identified through dental records, almost immediately a home which kind of goes back to them waiting the three hours to confirm to the family that it was her because if it was burned that badly, they can't just say, oh hey, we found her. For sure. So almost immediately a home office pathologist performs a post-mortem on Jackie's body.

And incredibly, despite how badly her body has burned, the medical examiners and forensics investigators are able to determine a cause of death. It's not from the fire, and it's not from the flames, and it's not from smoke inhalation. Jackie was murdered. She was beaten to death, and it's consistent with having been done with a hammer. However, the home office pathologist comes up with some unexpected results. The pathologist determines that Jackie was not murdered by the hammer that the firefighters and police had found next to her body by her bedroom window. That was a lump hammer. Her injuries tell a different story. Her injuries

are consistent with having been savagely attacked by a different kind of hammer, a claw hammer. Her injuries tell a different story. Her injuries are consistent with having been savagely attacked by a different kind of hammer, a claw hammer. How amazing is it that you can tell like, which hammer it is? Right. Just by the... Absolutely amazing. Wounds. Yeah. So her injuries show that someone had left a false clue at the murder scene. Someone had planted that hammer there, but it wasn't actually the murder weapon. Yeah. And the authorities believe they've already actually the murder weapon. Yeah.

And the authorities believe they've already found the claw hammer. Once the fire is out, they're able to search the entire house, and this search includes older brother Daniels room, 14 year old Daniel. It's there in Daniels bedroom that law enforcement is met with violent drawings, violent stories, and violent posters all over the walls. Okay. And it's also there that they're met with the terrible discovery of a claw hammer and a bottle of cleaning fluid hidden in Daniel's room, either in his closet or under his bed, depending on the source.

Cleaning fluid. So within just a few hours after the fire and after hearing Daniel's story and after doing some initial investigating, police go in and take Daniel away. I mean, it's safe to say they're pretty suspicious at this point. Which is weird because Daniel saved his younger sibling and dog.

Right. So the post mortem reveals that Jackie was hit with a claw hammer a total of seven times, which is so brutal. And that she was smashed over and over again with the hammer in the head and the face and the jaw. So it's not even like she's the body. This kind of reminds me of the episode,

if you haven't listened to it, I wanna say don't listen to it because it's, in a awful episode. Yeah, I think you're talking about Tyler Hadley who murdered his parents. I think that it was episode 130 Yes, anyways, it kind of reminds me of that a little bit It's just a brutal way to kill someone in a brutal way to die very very brutal this show is sponsored by better help Have you ever found yourself at a crossroads unsure of which direction to take in life?

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promo code husband. And again, not only have the police found the claw hammer, the murder weapon, hidden in 14 year old Daniels room, and all sorts of images of violence there. They also quickly determine that Daniels story about the intruder has inconsistencies and holds in it and points that just don't really make sense. His story also varies from the evidence before them and from other witness accounts, including perhaps his own six-year-old brother's account of what had happened. The police begin talking to anyone they can find who knows the family. They need to learn the family dynamic, they need to learn more about Daniel and what's going on here. So once they track him down, one of the first people they talk to learn more about Daniel and what's going on here. So once they track him down,

one of the first people they talk to is Simon Matters. This is Jackie's boyfriend. He's been around for a little bit. They also talk to the neighbors. Everyone at this point is wondering, how could a 14-year-old have possibly done this to his mother? The police conduct many interviews and start piecing together Daniel's history. Simon Matters in particular is a valuable source of information as he knows the family dynamics. See, Simon does matter. Simon does matter. Simon has been acting as a sort of stepfather to Jackie's two boys for the past couple of

years. Simon tells police that he was away at the time and that he first saw a story on the news about the fire in Nottinghamshire. So he's like not even contacted. As soon as it mentioned the name of their street, Georgia Drive, he feared that it was Jackie's house and he feared in his gut that Daniel was responsible. So like from the very first thing that he hears about this, he thinks it was Daniel. There was always signs and it's just not that they're obvious, but I feel like you always

look back and you're like, Oh, I think it's so hard to see in the moment, but it's just, it's crazy that it seems like there's always some sort of sign going on. Right. Because it's like the drawing and the movie teenager. Yeah, I know. The line is just so it is. It totally come blur 100%. So when he saw this report on the news, he actually called Jackie repeatedly, but he couldn't get through to her.

Then he heard that a 14-year-old boy had been arrested and he was sure that he already knew the truth. You see, he knew some dark stories about Daniel. The police learned that at first, Daniel grows up as a relatively normal boy. As a younger kid he's known to be friendly and lively and likes to play with other neighbor kids. This will change over time though. By the time he's 8 years old he's begun watching violent movies. He's becoming obsessed with them.

He enjoys nightmare on Elm Street, Scream, and Evil Dead. He's also playing pretty violent video games. His enjoyment goes beyond what's considered normal, even for young boys who enjoy violent movies and video games, and over time, it turns into more of a full-on fixation. When he's nine, shortly after his younger brother is born in 2005, Daniel's parents separate and divorced,

like we talked about. At this point, Daniel had attended prep school and then went on to attend a private boys school. He's forced to switch schools though when his parents divorced and it became too difficult for them to carry on with the private school tuition. So reportedly, the tuition at the private school

was 9,000 pounds per year. So Daniel at this point begs not to switch schools. And Jackie reportedly manages the private tuition a little bit longer, but eventually she has to switch him to a less expensive school. He then attends a Catholic school, Christ the King's school, an Arnold, but he has difficulty with the transition. He's been taken away from his school friends,

and he has trouble adjusting to all the major changes in life with his parents getting divorced. So at this point, Daniel's relationship with his mom begins souring. The mom and dad have very different parenting styles. According to Express.co.uk, friends said that while successful businessman, Adrian, tended to spoil his two sons with lavish gifts,

Jackie, who has custody, was the stricter of the two parents. She does her best to provide for her sons, although she may be more financially strapped than her successful ex-husband. Daniel, at this point, moves on to additional rated R movies like Halloween and the torture-themed Saw movies, and in 2008, his mom meets Simon Matters. Simon will spend an increasing amount of time with them, and Simon says he initially gets on well with Daniel, and that Daniel was friendly and normal and smiled a lot. He says he wasn't a kid who soaked. However, when Daniel turns 12, he starts to spend more time alone in his room, he begins being even more obsessed with these horror movies, and

begins playing Grand Theft Auto. It said he would often stash cans of red bull energy drinks under his bed to drink so that he could stay up. And he's just becoming more increasingly withdrawn. So in February 2009, when Daniel is 13, Jackie moves her boys to a different home. They're moving to the house on Georgia Lane and while they're packing to move Simon matters makes a Disturbing discovery in Daniel's room. So he's in with Daniel helping him pack and he finds bags of Jackie's underwear

And a bowl of Star Wars figures that had been hacked up and peed on What? and a bowl of Star Wars figures that had been hacked up and peed on. What? The backs of his mother's underwear. None of that makes sense. No, no, no, no, no, that's insane. When you see the figures that have been cut up and peed on, like, peed on, you got to go, you got to go, you got to take them in. That's insane.

Yeah. So Simon apparently for the first time also notices a whole bunch of horror movie tapes on the shelves in Daniel's room Like he's been collecting them and then it was also around this time that Simon is changing his clothes in the bedroom When he catches Daniel filming him with a video camera So he asks him what he was doing, but he just kind of like shrugged it off. It seemed odd to do at such a young age, but again, relatively harmless. And the new neighbors also noticed some odd behavior on Daniels Part 2. He was climbing into other people's yards and gardens.

He'd never do any damage, but he just like to like hang out around there. I'll tell you what, the starboard is in ping on them. That is not normal teenage behavior. No. We're just going to say it right now. And even if it is, what's the harm in like going and getting it checked? You know what I mean? Like you go get them checked and then they're like, oh, nothing's wrong that we can see.

And then you go home. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe it's expensive to go get one of those tests. And I don't know, but I don't know. I mean, I'm not victim blaming here either. I'm just saying if we're looking for red, red flags, I'm blaming the kid that's peeing on his Star Wars stuff. And then in May of 2010, when he's still 13, Daniel has a very disturbing

episode in class at school. He shouts at the tie he's wearing, which he refers to as Fred, and claims that the tie is trying to harm and strangle him. This causes a big disturbance in class. He's then referred to a school counselor after what's described as the violent outburst. His outfit that day was just a normal school uniform with a normal school-issued tie. Daniel goes to counseling, although it's not clear for how long and he tells the counselor that he's hearing voices and that he's feeling depressed. He says that he's angry and that he's

having nightmares. Okay. These voices he hears tells him to hurt people. So Daniel just like clearly needs help and he's just asked for it. At some point before the murder, arguments between Daniel and his mom escalate. Simon tells police that he physically defends Jackie during these arguments and that he tries to prevent Daniel from hitting her. Simon admits to police, you know, there was a weakness on Jackie's part to kind of stand up to her son. There was probably a bit of whole in the parenting he says, but then he's like, who am I to judge? I'm just this stepfather who's trying to come in. So it's a hard situation. He doesn't feel like it's his place to try and Parent or discipline Jackie's kids plus teenagers are just notoriously difficult to discipline

Also around this time Daniel starts doing things around the house to damage things like one day when they painted the floors He walked through the floors on purpose and then like tracked the paint throughout the house. He starts damaging the gardens, damaging the flowers in them. He also at this point starts hitting his younger brother. Okay. And Daniel also begins writing graphically violent stories and then proudly shows these stories to his family. But it gets even worse because according to Simon, Daniel also begins urinating and using the bathroom in his own bedroom, then uses towels to clean up the mess

and then hides the towels instead of just going to a bathroom. So there is, there's obviously some issue, I mean, obviously issues. Like you need help. Like you need help. Yeah, he needs help. Something is going on.

Right. Something is clearly not right. Yes. So within a couple days of Jackie's murder, the police are busy analyzing something that will prove key to their investigation. Although the house had broken out in fire, the police are quickly able to retrieve, seize,

and search through Daniel's computer. A computer that is biological father, Adrian, had bought for him. They want to see if they can find any evidence and they do. For one thing, they find multiple Google searches showing an obsession with murder and murderers' infictional stories. They find a search in the history of, quote, people who get away with murder in shows, and another two searches are, man kills wife and makes it it and how to get away with murder. So basically, OJ Simpson. Where did that come from?

OJ Simpson didn't do that. Yeah, he killed his wife, didn't he? Well, yeah, but he wasn't googling how to get away with murder. And he read a book, how I killed my wife, I'm not away with it. Okay, yeah, I guess, I guess, I guess I get where you're drawing this parallel from.

I just didn't see it coming. This is why I am the true crime genius and you are the novice Police keep searching Daniels computer and they find a file that was deleted just a few days before the murder With some work though the authorities are able to retrieve it the file is a story essentially a script written before Jackie's murder and essentially a script written before Jackie's murder and eerily it lays out the exact scenario of Jackie's murder written there on Daniel's computer. Okay you guys we are getting into an ad. I know you guys have both heard the story about how Garrett and I were both paying separately for peacock and then we used rocket money and realized

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husband. The story is of a boy named Daniel Bartlam who kills a character named Jackie, the boy's mom, and the murder occurs in the story just as it will happen in real life. It's got a pretty elaborate plot in the story though. The murderer Daniel Bartlam gets away with the murder of his mother and he goes on to become a famous star of a soap TV show. Why his mom? Yeah. Does it say, like does he, does there any explanation?

Well, I don't think it says, but they have been fighting pretty significantly at this point. And also in the story he writes, it details him rescuing his younger brother. And it also mentions the main character successfully making up a story about a masked intruder coming in. So I mean, this is open and shut. But you have a 14 year old here. So you're going to need to do a mental health evaluation, obviously. So two days after the murder, Daniel is arrested. The police have now read Daniel's script, and they believe this is a clear-cut copycat murder from the script.

Please continue investigating the case by talking to anyone they can find who knows the family. Daniel is sent to a secure unit, apparently, for young psychiatric offenders. While there, he threatens to kill another patient, just like, quote, I killed my mom. Oh my gosh. Despite the initial tell of a murderous intruder, once he's confronted with all the evidence

against him, Daniel changes his story and says, no, there wasn't an intruder. He admits to making that entire part up. He now says that he and his mother had an argument and that her abusive behavior forced him to kill her. This isn't direct contrast to when he first talked to the police at the scene of the fire and how he had told them that he was on good terms with his mother. Once caught, he claims a type of battered child or abused child self-defense. He says that during a big argument with his mother, she called him a freak and so he begins spreading claims that his mother was a bad mother basically dishonoring the memory of the mother that he just

Murdered to death with a hammer. Yeah Everyone who knew Jackie Strongly contradict Daniel's account of his mother's character and her behavior and how she was as a mom and a person Daniel is charged with murder and he appears before a magistrate Because Daniel is a minor, the media is ordered not to publicly report his name or his mother's name. It won't be for a year until April 2012 that the judge lifts this restriction. Daniel pleads not guilty and in February 2012, Daniel's case goes to a jury trial.

I cannot believe that whoever his attorneys were in hand, they played not guilty. I don't know. I guess I probably could have looked up the rules on because I know if this was here in America most likely, they would have gone through within a mental health evaluation. And I don't even know if this case would have gone to trial considering that he was saying he was hearing voices. Probably not. And I think because he's so young, he probably would have just been sent to a hospital hospital correct on February 9th 2012 the verdict is unanimous for guilty Daniel is convicted of his mother's murder at the sentencing on April 1st 2012 judge mr. Justice flocks imposes a life sentence to 14 year old dad

While they're clearly were arguments between you and your mother He says not on typical between mother and their teenage children, I'm quite satisfied that there was no physical or verbal abuse by your mother, such as you alleged in your evidence at trial. So he basically says, because you came in saying that your mother was abusing you, I am now sentencing you to life in prison because I don't think that was the case.

Daniel is 15 years old at the time of his sentencing. The judge orders Daniel to serve a minimum at the time of his sentencing. The judge orders Daniel to serve a minimum of 16 years in prison. After all of this, as reported in Express.co.uk, in April 2012, Jackie's younger son, who's only six years old, leaves flowers and a poem at the house for her. And it says, thinking of you and sending a very special prayer that God will bless you, keep you safe and tend you with great care for you. Or such a special mom in every single way.

And I still miss you very much. And I think of you each day. But I know you are in heaven now. So happy and carefree with angels watching over you as you watched over me, which six years old like that is just absolutely. It's just sad because his brother took his mom away. And now what does that do to the eye? It's heartbreaking.

There is so much more than just killing someone. The mental damage it does to a variety of people is, it's like, there's always more than we've ever lived. So I guess the question in this case remains why? Like, what happened here? Why does this happen? How does this happen? The lead detective sums it up pretty well, she says.

The level of violence, degree of planning, and extent of his lies is not only shocking, but it is also chilling that a boy of 14 years old could do this. This murder has devastated everyone involved. There is only one person who knows why it happened and Daniel has lied consistently throughout making attempts to kind of ruin his mother's character. Everyone who knew her new she lived for her children and was a warm, loving mother. Maybe one day Daniel will tell the truth

as there are several gaps that only he can fill. The motive is that there is no motive. Daniel has showed no remorse. He has never explained his actions or attempted to offer a motive. Maybe he is just a psychopath at 14 years old. As one of her loved ones will say, I just hope one day he realizes that his mom loved him very much and didn't deserve what he did to her. And that is the story of Jackie Bartlem. I feel like we could do like a whole nether episode on just like my thoughts. And I think sometimes of a hard time like mixing my personal opinions with the episode and keeping it respectful all at the same time.

But I just, I will not, I just don't understand because there's obviously something wrong with him. So I, I don't have sympathy for him, right? Like I can't. I don't think I can physically have this sympathy because he killed people. But like there was all these signs, like there's obviously something wrong with him. Like, couldn't, can that be fixed? Can it not be fixed? I don't know. I, I don't know if anyone actually knows the answer. I mean, maybe you could speculate and say, maybe, maybe not,

maybe there's a percentage of a chance that it, it could be, it's just, I don't think it's comprehensible. Like you can't comprehend a lot of it. I don't know. I don't think you can either and I think that's what makes true crime so fascinating. Because I just don't think you can comprehend why people do what they do. Oh, it just makes me mad though

because I think majority of people, obviously majority of humans, 99.9% of them, they, I mean, at least I don't. Like when I'm mad or something, of people, obviously majority of humans, 99.9% of them, they, I mean, at least I don't, like when I'm mad or something, like I have never ever, killing someone has it never crossed my mind. And it never will.

Right. At least I hope so. But, you know, like it just won't, like that's my brain is, I would assume not capable of doing that. Unless it's in self-defense or something along those lines. But even then it's hard. Even then yes, I'm sure.

And it just like do you believe Daniel could be, I don't like the use of this word but fix? I don't know if I want to get into it because I think it's just opening up a can of worms. Right. Personally, I don't know. I don't know. I think an extreme case like that, I don't know if that can be quotations fixed wherever you want to call it. You know, there's this criminal minds episode where this mom brings her teenage son in because

he's come to her and said, mom, I'm fascinating about like killing women. Oh, you told me about this. Yes. And the profiler say, it's not if your son is going to kill, it's one. One, yeah. And I think that you see this profile, right? Like, it's just so hard. And like you said, it's so hard to get into.

So I guess we'll just leave it at that today. That was our case. And don't forget to listen to Rising Crime coming out this week. I love it. I hate it. Goodbye.