Murder With My Husband - 187. The Toolbox Killer

Episode Date: October 23, 2023

On this episode, Payton discusses how two like minded criminals became partners in crime to become one of the most feared serial killers in Los Angeles.  Socials, DISCOUNT CODES, and more: https://linktr.ee/murderwithmyhusband “The Toolbox Killers: A Deadly Rape, Torture and Murder Duo” by Jack Rosewood and Rebecca Lo Medium.com - https://medium.com/california-dreaming/norris-and-bittaker-the-toolbox-killers-345825737302 Newsweek.com - https://www.newsweek.com/toolbox-killers-laura-brand-interview-lawrence-bittaker-roy-norris-1631923 The Independent - https://www.the-independent.com/news/world/americas/crime/serial-killer-bittaker-criminologist-execution-b1972389.html LA Times - https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1989-06-23-mn-2460-story.html Oxygen.com - https://www.oxygen.com/the-toolbox-killer/crime-news/who-are-toolbox-killers-lawrence-bittaker-roy-norris AllThatsInteresting.com - https://allthatsinteresting.com/worst-deaths/10 FoxNews.com - https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/toolbox-killer-lawrence-bittaker-laura-brand-documentary-streaming Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello everybody welcome back to our podcast. This is murder with my husband. I'm Peyton Moreland. I'm Garrett Moreland. And he's the husband. I'm the husband. Holy crap. Our live shows this week. He's not a drill. How are you feeling? Are you nervous? I'm excited. Yeah. I'm excited. I mean, I'm a bit. I just wanted to be a good show. And I'm interested to see how a live show goes to see if it's something we want to continue doing in the future in different cities. Hopefully everyone likes it. If not, then I'm sorry.

Well, I won't lie. I've been to podcast live shows before and I had a ball. And they've all sucked. No, they were great. They were so fun. Yeah, we did go to that one together. It was pretty fun. That one.

That one that cannot be named. Yeah, so thanks to everyone who's able to come, sorry to everyone who wanted to come and ticked sold out. Not what we were expecting. Hopefully everything goes smooth and maybe we can do more in the future. Yeah, that's all I got there. So before we get into Garrett's 10 seconds, Garrett, did you see that Natalie Holloway's killer confessed?

We just covered her murder. I don't know. Oh, how long ago? Literally just barely. There's so many I can't, I can't keep up. She was an American student. Oh, yes, okay. Went over.

And then it was very obvious who the killer was. Wait, the killer. He finally confessed. And it was who everyone thought it was? Yes. And over on Rising Crime, my mom is going to be covering the update. So go listen to Natalie's episode if you haven't yet. And if you already just did, go over to Rising Crime

and check out the update. She's going to give you all the deeds on the confession and everything. Also real quick, if you want any bonus content, subscribe to our Patreon or Apple subscriptions. And that'll lead me into my 10 seconds. What's your 10 seconds, gonna be? I'm gonna make it quick and simple.

I am getting a colonoscopy tomorrow. Hopefully everything goes nice and smooth as it should. And yeah, so I've just been doing all the prep beforehand at sucks. It's not fun. Actually, to be honest, it has them in that bad. Okay, but let me preface with the reason Garrett's getting a cooloscopy. So young is because he has some stomach issues and they just want to make sure everything's okay. So these, this prep stomach issues aren't very much different than your normal issues. Yeah, I'm chilling.

I feel like it's just another day in the park, walking around. I've been having some, I mean, I've had IBS and stomach issues personal, by the way. IBS and stomach issues my entire life, the last year and a half, year or so, it's kind of gotten worse. Not gonna go into too much detail, but. It of gotten worse. I'm not going to go into too much detail, but...

It's been crappy. I'm making sure exactly. I'm making sure everything's nice and healthy down there. Fingers crossed. Yeah, I'll let everyone know next week or at the live show if you go. If you want to know. So that's what I got for you guys this week.

I'm just... That's our poop date. I'm just flowing away. Let's hop into it. RKSource is this week. the toolbox killers, a deadly rape torture and murder duo by Jack Rosewood and Rebecca Lo. Medium.com, Newsweek.com, the independent LA Times, Oxygen.com, all that's interesting.com and Fox News.com.

Now, I want to give a trigger warning. This episode features discussions of suicidal ideation, sexual assault and torture. So please just listen with care. This is a pretty heavy case. So we're just going to get right into it. I think it's safe to say we've seen murderers make some pretty ridiculous mistakes when it comes to leaving evidence behind. Whether that's a bad job at ditching the murder weapon, a shoddy cleanup job, a few undeleted emails detailing the crime, it only takes one tiny mistake to get someone caught. And we're often sitting here going, what an idiot.

He planned out a murder but didn't hide the gun. Well, today's case got me thinking that maybe sometimes these people are just so delusional, so narcissistic that they don't think it's possible for them to ever get caught, which is why sometimes they leave evidence behind on purpose or even create evidence as sort of a souvenir. In today's case, one piece of evidence exposed not one but two serial killers, a serial killing duo. And that evidence that led to them was so disturbing, so absolutely psychotic that it literally gave the jury horrific nightmares. So let's get into the case. And of course, it's October 31st, 1979. It is Halloween night, which by the way is why we're doing the case. And of course, it's October 31st, 1979. It is Halloween night, which by the way is why we're doing this case. 1979, there's a house party out in a suburb of Los Angeles,

just north of Hollywood called Sunland. High schoolers are waiting in line for a keg dressed as the occasional vampires on the maybe even president Jimmy Carter. But 16-year-old Shirley Ledford isn't in costume. To be honest, she's not exactly enjoying herself either at this party. She's just come from a long shift of waiting tables at a restaurant nearby, and tonight her boyfriend is driving her nuts. She's exhausted, but she came out just to see him. And throughout the course of the evening, he's either been ignoring her or picking a fight with her. And frankly, she has just had enough.

She pokes around the party, asking if anyone is leaving and headed in the direction of her neighborhood. Like she wants to get out of here. But it's still pretty early. It's barely 10 o'clock on this Halloween night. The party's honestly kind of just getting started. So Shirley chugs her beer, grabs her purse, pushes past the fake doctors and nurses

beyond the silver-skinned aliens and out to the curb in front of the house. She takes in the fresh air, the blasting music now just a hum in the background, and begins walking in the direction of home. Knowing she can never make the entire way by foot, Shirley stops at a gas station and begins looking for a ride home there. Remember it's 1979, hitchhiking is just as normal as healing a taxi or calling an Uber.

But tonight, Shirley gets lucky. A man pulls up in a van with his friend, and it's someone she knows. He's a regular at the restaurant that Shirley works at. He's always been kind. He tips decently. Plus, he's offering to take her wherever she needs to go that night, which is home.

Shirley figures, even though she doesn't remember his name, it's got to be better than a complete stranger, right? Who knows what freaks and weirdos are out cruising around on Halloween night. So at approximately 10.30 pm, Shirley hops in the van and gives the guy her address. Once she clicks on her seatbelt, they offer her a hit of their joint, but Shirley turns it down. She's filling tipsy enough from the party as is. They pull out of the gas station parking lot and hit the back roads of Sunland making their way through neighborhoods dodging the night's final trick or treaters. But then, Shirley realizes they aren't headed in the direction towards her home.

She's some place she's never seen before. They make another turn onto this deserted street and stop the van. Despite Shirley's protests, the men crank up the music and climb into the back. Meanwhile, no one can hear Shirley led for screaming and begging for her life from the inside of the silver van. And I know oftentimes we think, why would you get in the van, did it, but I will say in high school, one time I got in a van with a kid that I barely knew, but I will say in high school one time I got in a van with a kid that I barely knew. And then I said, can you take me home and he drove right past my house? He was years older than me. Yeah.

Drove me up to the middle of nowhere. I got home safe, obviously, but I don't think it's that hard to get into a situation like this. Yeah. So I think something to learn from this is just never ever getting a van. Exactly. Even if your mom drives a van, do protest. Do not get in. We're the time to get a new car.

The next morning as the sun rises, a jogger crunches over emptied candy wrappers on his morning route. Taking in the do soaked decorations around Sunland, he stumbles across one piece of decor that looks a little too lifelike. And the closer he gets, he realizes, it's not a Halloween decoration at all. It's the dead body of a young woman

who's been seemingly left on this random yard in Sunland. And imagine how scary that is, like you're like, wow, they decorated with like a fake body. And you realize it's a real body. Yes, that's horrible. After police arrived, surely is taken in for an autopsy because obviously this is her. Her list of injuries compared to something

out of a Halloween horror film. Compression marks on her neck, blunt force trauma to the head and breasts, genital mutilation, puncture wounds to the hands, and that's just the half of it. Police don't think this will be an easy case to solve. There doesn't appear to be someone else's DNA on her body, her boyfriend has an alibi back at the party, and there are no witnesses who saw surely after she left the party. The police can only think of one thing. There have been several teenage girls who have been reported missing in the Los Angeles area over the last couple of months.

What if LA County has a serial killer on their hand? And it was a good hunch. But what the police didn't anticipate was they weren't just dealing with one serial killer in LA. They were looking for a duo. So let's travel back to the 1940s. When a little boy named Lawrence Bidaker was brought into this world. Lawrence never knew his birth parents and was placed into an orphanage in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania almost immediately after his birth. It wasn't long though before Lawrence was heading home with his new parents, a man named George Bittaker and his new bride. But Lawrence proved to be trouble from a very young age. Before he turned 13, he'd gotten caught for shoplifting. Shortly after, he was busted

for stealing a car. While Lawrence was in above average IQ at 138, he later dropped out of high school claiming the work was too tedious. Instead, he preferred a life of petty crime, getting arrested for everything from evading the police to hit and runs to Grand Theft Auto. Eventually, Lawrence was sent to the California Youth Authority, a juvenile detention center where he remained until he was 19 years old. But that did nothing to set Lawrence on the straight in narrow. After his release, Lawrence went back to his old ways,

going in and out of jail, mostly for robberies. During one of those sentences, Lawrence was psychologically examined and diagnosed as paranoid and borderline psychotic. Rather than get him the help he needed, Lawrence was released back into the wild without any plans for treatments. Meanwhile, his petty crimes turned more deadly. In 1974, Lawrence strolled into a supermarket, grabbed a stake, shoved it down his pants, then

tried to walk out of the store. Wait, like, like to eat like a steak. Yes. Was it a filet at least? I hope so. Grab the steak. What the? But when he was confronted by one of the employees, Lawrence stabbed the man in the test with a knife. Lawrence was charged with attempted murder and shoplifting and soon found himself back in jail. This time at the San Luis Obispo's men's colony prison in California. And that's where he forged a sacred relationship, one that would change his life and the lives of countless others. And I must say, of all the sacred relationships

you could forge, maybe in prison, not one of them. So what do you mean? We're like with the... With another prisoner. Okay, there we go. I was wondering if you got married, opposite sex. You know, he just met someone who it was about to bring out the worst in him and vice

versa. Okay. So much like Lawrence Bittaker, Roy Lewis Norris had an untraditional and challenging upbringing. Born in 1948 in Greeley, Colorado, Roy was in and out of foster care for much of his early life and said to have survived a lot of physical and sexual abuse throughout that process. At the age of 16, after a fight with his biological father, Roy attempted suicide but was found alive by police.

Shortly after, he dropped out of high school and enlisted in the Navy. During his service, Roy was sent to Vietnam, and while he didn't see any combat, he did find himself introduced to new drugs like marijuana and heroin. Instead of coming back with a medal of honor, Roy Norris was discharged and sent home with an ugly addiction. But surprisingly, it wasn't the drugs that got Roy kicked out of the Navy. He had attempted to sexually assault a female overseas. Okay. And when he underwent a psychological evaluation, Roy was diagnosed with schizoid personality disorder, which is slightly different from schizophrenia,

as many cases don't include the hallucinations or delusions typically seen in schizophrenia. However, the Navy seemed to wipe their hands clean of Roy once he was discharged. Because in November 1969, Roy committed another preventable crime. He was in Southern California when he forced his way into a taxi with a female driver and attempted to sexually assault her.

What is up with this guy? He was caught and arrested, but while out on bail, committed a similar offense by attacking a female student on campus as San Diego State University. All right, so at this point, we go, okay. Jill. This guy has a problem. He should go to jail. He's reoffending.

I mean, I don't even know if he should ever get out. Like, it's obviously not going to, he just keeps doing it. Well, he has been diagnosed. So he was sentenced to five years in a state hospital. OK. And by the time he was released in 1975, his doctors told him he no longer needed their care. He seemed to have made a full improvement.

Good decision there. Clearly that was not the case. Because just three months later, Roy attacked a 27-year-old woman who was walking home in Redondo Beach, California. This time, Roy was arrested and sent to the California men's colony. Sound familiar? This is where he met Lawrence Bittaker. Interestingly enough, the pair began getting to know one another during a jewelry making

class in prison. Lawrence looked out for Roy and saved him from more than one attack when other inmates targeted him. Before long, the two were close friends, opening up to one another about their deepest secrets and their darkest fantasies. So I know now this a lot of this stuff is monitored, but as it should be because when two inmates or two people in prison and jail start speaking like this and talking like this, I mean, that's a problem, right? It's a big problem. We see oftentimes that like people who may not have killed just meet the right person and then become killers. And it's kind of like the

perfect scenario in prison when you're taking, I mean, someone who's sexually assaulted, someone who's done petty crimes, grand theft auto, and then putting them together, what do they, what does that pair mean? We're going to get there. At Salesforce, we're all about asking more of AI. Questions like, where's the data going? Is it secure? Are you sure? Are you sure you're sure? Get answers you can trust from Salesforce at AskmoreofAi.com. Are you sure you're sure? Get answers you can trust from Salesforce at AskMoreVi.com.

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on a 5G subscription phone plan. It's the perfect deal for anyone who could use some savings right now. Subscribe today at publicmobile.ca. Different is calling. Over time they realized that they shared a sexual interest in violence. Roy said that he found it stimulating when a woman was frightened out of her wits, and Lawrence confessed to him that while he'd never done it before, he would too be interested

in sexually assaulting a woman. But he would be sure to kill her and hide the body after he was done. Together, the two began daydreaming about hypothetical kills, which eventually became a fully formed plan. Once they were both out of prison, they would meet back up. Target women, particularly between the age ranges of 13 and 19, they even spoke about what sort of vehicle to get, the best methods to lure and attack their victims and potential locations to dispose of their bodies. By the time Lawrence was released on parole in October 1978, the two had dialed in their plans perfectly. And I just feel like, I mean, it's a different time. But if things

were monitored, like I said, there's no way they would let them out, right? Or they would have been like, Oh, wait, they're talking about killing people together. But also how do you know if they don't tell anyone that that's what they're talking about killing people together. And also, how do you know if they don't tell anyone that that's what they're talking about? Well, you just hear it through the cameras, the audio, just think of attention to it. But yeah, I mean, it's a lot to it's a lot to monitor. Right. So Lawrence gets out and he lays low in Los Angeles waiting for his friend.

He gets a job as a mechanic, finds an apartment and waits patiently for his accomplice to be set free from prison as well. The job as a mechanic finds an apartment and waits patiently for his accomplice to be set free from prison as well. Just four months later, in January 1979, Roy Norris was back on the streets in Radondo Beach, less than an hour south of Lawrence Bittaker, and it was time to put their plan in motion. In February of that year, Lawrence and Roy met up for the first time out in the real world. Lawrence had already been scoping out different neighborhoods and beaches looking for the best place they could pick up young women.

Wow, just like an evil person. Then they combined what little finances they had and made their first big investment, a silver GMC cargo van, with no side windows and a sliding door. A scary man van for a repus van, which would make it easier to pull an unwitting victim inside. They even turned the back of the van into a little hangout area with a bed and a cooler for snacks and drinks. They nicknamed the vehicle the murder Mac. Next, the two went out scouting for the perfect location to carry out their sadistic deeds. It was April when they stumbled across a road

out in the San Gabriel Mountains, a place far away from any prying eyes or potential witnesses. Lawrence broke the padlock on the gate and realized they had their own private little street to dispose of the bodies once they completed their crimes. Plus, the local wildlife, everything from bears to coyotes, to mountain lions, would be sure to help them with the decomposition of the remains.

Now the duo just needed to make a few test runs. Lawrence and Roy drove around Radondo in Santa Monica Beach looking for young female hitchhikers who needed to catch a ride. They found that offering them alcohol in marijuana was a huge selling point and a big way for them to earn the teenagers trust. Once inside the van they take the girl's picture on a Polaroid camera, drive them around a bit, and eventually just let them go, without harming a single hair on their head. Wait, so they really did that?

They were testing it out. Okay. For now, Roy and Lawrence just wanted to hone their technique. Make sure they could be seen as cool in front of a group of teenagers. Remember, Roy is about 31 and Lawrence about 39. They wanted to make sure they didn't look like two creepy old men

in a van. They were picking up girls and that would require some skill. But after managing to earn the trust of about 20 women, the men realized it was time for the next step. Oh gosh. Imagine being one of these girls. Yeah. They had been picked up and let go. Yeah. As a final phase of their preparations, Roy and Lawrence purchased a toolbox equipped with everything from pliers to knives to wire to an ice pick. It was around 7.45 pm on June 24, 1979, when Roy pointed out their first target. A 16-year-old girl with blonde hair and blue eyes named Lucinda Lynn Schaeffer, who was leaving her church in Radondo Beach. Roy tapped Lawrence, pointing out the attractive young blonde, and they stopped the van beside her. They asked Lucinda if she needed a ride

home. They could even smoke a joint on the way. But despite their dry runs, Lucinda wasn't charmed by the duo, and she certainly wasn't interested in the free ride. Filling frustrated at their almost immediate failure, Lawrence sped ahead of the girl and parked the van further down the road. As she approached the vehicle, Roy leapt out and grabbed her dragging her back through those sliding doors. Then Lawrence blasted the radio so no one in the neighborhood could hear Lucinda's screams. Roy tied her up as Lawrence took off for that road in the San Gabriel Mountains. There, after taking turns having their way with Lucinda, Roy asked Lawrence if they could

set her free. He wasn't interested in killing the girl. But Lawrence insisted. He followed through with the plan. They had talked about this in prison. Roy began strangling her with his bare hands, but supposedly couldn't stomach it. Oh, these guys are just the worst. There's not even a word for them. He ran off vomiting in the deserted mountains while Lawrence finished killing Lucinda with a wire hangar. After she died, they wrapped her body in a plastic shower curtain and left her just off the side of the road. And two weeks later, they were back on the hunt for their next victim.

It was July 8th when Roy and Lawrence spotted Andrea Joy Hall, hitchhiking on the Pacific Coast Highway. Andrea, another blue-eyed, blonde-haired teenager around 18 years old, certainly fit their mold. But as they approached her, the car in front of them stopped to pick Andrea up. They'd been beaten to the punch, but they weren't going to give up that easily. They followed Andrea's ride back to the Redondo Beach area, and once she got out, Lawrence instructed Roy to hide in the back of the van, this

time trying a new tactic. Maybe, if there was only one of them, Andrea would be more inclined to hop in and hang out, so Lawrence pulled up slowly and asked Andrea if she wanted a cold drink on this hot afternoon. And shockingly, it worked. Andrea took him up on the offer. Then Lawrence hopped out and went around to the back doors of the van pretending to reach the cooler, but when he opened the doors, Roy leapt out and grabbed Andrea pulling her inside. Only this time, their target fought back. Andrea began kicking and screaming, retaliating against her assailants until they managed to

bind her ankles and wrists and place duct tape over her mouth to muffle the screams. They took off for their trusted destination in the San Gabriel Mountains. There the pair took turns sexually assaulting Andrea but eventually Lawrence asked Roy to leave them alone. Roy went off to pick up some beers while Lawrence forced Andrea up a hill to continue his sadistic crimes. While Roy was gone, Lawrence used an ice pick to try and kill Andrea, but when the handle broke off,

he went back to his trusted method, strangling her to death on top of the hill before tossing her body over the side. But not before taking a few polarroids of the naked and terrified 18 year old girl. So I mean, he just like killing people. I mean, he's a game. It's fun.

It's just, gosh, it sucks. No one's seen like them being kidnapped either. And it's, it's just insane that two people can be okay with this together. They're just feeding off each other at this point. The duo took a break from their kills for the month of August, but come Labor Day weekend, they were back on the streets scouring for their next victims. Oh my gosh, how many people this time they came across 15 year old

Jackie Doris, Gilliam and 13 year old Jacqueline lamp near a bus stop in Hermosa Beach. Lawrence and Roy pulled over and asked the girls if they'd be interested in hanging out, smoking some weed in the back of their van, and unfortunately the girls said yes. Without a fight, they hopped into the back of the van together, passed around a joint, even shared a few laughs. The girls only began to panic once they noticed Lawrence was taking them away from the beach. Jacqueline tried to escape out the side door, but Roy grabbed her and knocked her unconscious. Then they pulled into a parking lot near some tennis courts to tie the two women up.

Shockingly, shockingly, they were even spotted by a few witnesses, but Lawrence told them the girls were just having a bad trip and they were trying to calm the girls down. Yeah. Okay. Before anyone could call the police, Roy and Lawrence were back on the road headed to the mountains, but this crime didn't just take a few hours. Roy and Lawrence kept the girls up there alive for two full days. Oh, man, this is, this is a bad one.

It was very similar to the last time taking turns, photographs. This time, they also used many tools in their toolbox to torture the girls, details that I'm not going to get into beyond that. At the end of all of it, Jackie was also stabbed with an ice pick and then strangled before they pushed her body over the cliff. And Jacqueline was killed with a sledgehammer before also being left to the elements. Okay. So, at this point, we have three, four bodies by that cliff.

Like we got to figure something out because this is getting out of hand. Well, by the end of September, Roy and Lawrence were either getting lazy or overly confident in their ability to commit these crimes because on the 30th, that's when they spotted another teenager named Shirley Sanders walking through Manhattan Beach while visiting from Oregon. This is a different surely than the original surely that we started this case out with. The men tried to course her into the van with drugs and alcohol, but surely refused. This time, they leapt out in pepper spray, surely, before stuffing her into the van. I don't know if you're catching on here, but these men are slowly

adding torture tools into their toolboxes and kind of just escalating and playing around with these different ways to hurt women, because they've now added pepper spray to get women. After sexually assaulting Shirley, Shirley found a moment to make a run for it. She escaped to the van and bolted down the street. Shirley went straight to the police station where she reported the attack and gave a detailed description of the van,

a silver GMC cargo van. Unfortunately, she wasn't able to give a solid description of the men who had assaulted her. The slip-up was enough to scare Roy and Lawrence back into hiding for another month. They're like, okay, we had this girl escape. We're gonna cool off for a month. It also got them to change their scouting locations because they began moving north of Hollywood to the area of Sunland that October. And that's where they found the 16 year old Shirley Ledford that Halloween night. This is the same Shirley we started with.

Also, it doesn't fall their MO because they dumped her body just in the grass in the neighborhood. Like you said, they're starting to get sloppy. They didn't go up to the cliff. Right. Shirley's death was also different in a lot of ways. For starters, Lawrence Biddaker seemed to have been stalking her in the days before the cliff. Right. Shirley's death was also different in a lot of ways. For starters, Lawrence Biddaker seemed to have been stalking her in the days before the attack, because he'd gone into Shirley's restaurants several times and the two got familiar with one another. And it worked when it came time to offer her a ride home from that gas station. Rather than take her up to the mountains, though, Roy drove around the suburbs of Los Angeles for a few hours while Lawrence tortured and assaulted

Shirley in the back. They also escalated into recording a lot of this on audio tape. Screams and threats that no one should ever hear were captured and later kept by Lawrence as a twisted souvenir. After her death, Lawrence told Roy there was a change of plans. Instead of driving up to the mountains, like you said, to hide Shirley's body, they should see if they could catch the press's attention. Perhaps by just dumping her body on some random front lawn. Oh, they're just so sick and they don't care.

No. I mean, they're just obviously... Sadistic. Yeah. Well, and the issue is police knew none of this at the time. They were completely baffled by Shirley Ledford's murder and weeks went by with no suspects. With all the other murders. I mean, there are just disappearances at this point.

Bodies haven't been followed. They haven't found those yet. So there's no new evidence. And frankly, Lawrence and Roy might have gotten away with it. If they had followed through with the plan, they'd designed for the others and left Shirley in the San Gabriel Mountains just as they had before. But at this point the duo had gotten so cocky, so self-righteous, and they just had to share their story with someone else. So a few weeks after Shirley's body was found, a man named Jimmy Dalton phoned the LAPD with a tip. He'd recently connected with a former inmate who bragged him about some crimes he'd committed. For the last five months, his friend Roy Norris said he'd been assaulting, torturing, and murdering women all around Los Angeles.

And I feel like we see this happening a lot. They just can't keep it to themselves. They have to have to brag about it. They have to tell someone about it. And that's exactly what he did. And they're stupid because, I mean, good for us because it gets them caught. And I guess not stupid because I feel like telling a former inmate that, I feel like you have a pretty good chance they're not going to say anything. I'm glad this one did, but if you're usually telling another inmate,

I feel like a lot of times we'll be like, I'm going to pretend I didn't hear that. Yeah. He also tells him he had the help of another former inmate, Lawrence Bittaker. When police asked Jimmy why he'd come forward, he admitted he had a 13 year old daughter himself. Okay, that makes sense. And he didn't like the way Roy Norris had been acting towards her. Yeah.

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And once Jimmy told them that Roy and Lawrence had been driving around in a silver GMC van, they perked up. A silver van was exactly what that survivor Shirley Sanders said she'd escaped from back in September. So an officer questioned Shirley with a catalog of potential suspects, including Lawrence Bidaker and Roy Norris. Sure enough, she pointed out each of the two men as her attackers. All right, that's what I'm talking about. Now that police had their two suspects, they waited for the perfect opportunity to move in and make the arrest. They kept them under surveillance for the next several days,

waiting for one of them to violate their parole. And before long, Roy Norris was caught selling marijuana. He was arrested and placed behind bars where police could finally start the real interrogation. Almost immediately Roy admitted to the assaults and murders, but he claimed Lawrence Bidaker was the mastermind behind it all. He felt bullied and pressured into helping him out. Within a matter of hours, Lawrence Bittaker was also in handcuffs. Later, police searched Lawrence's apartment for additional evidence and stumbled upon a massive find. Over 500 Polaroids of hundreds of young women, some dressed, some undressed, some just of girls walking down the beach, others at a local high school, and several of them being tortured in the back of that van and out in the desert.

And picture how eerie this would be as a person to find these pictures. And it's like, ran a picture of girls walking down the street at this high school. And you're like, okay, this is creepy. And then you get to the pictures of girls being mutilated and tortured in the back of this creepy van. I was going to say that it's kind of creepy and kind of scary that today, there's guys, people who still do that. And it's just pictures on their phones. Taking pictures of, I mean, I've seen like on social media,

people catch people just like taking pictures of girls, wherever, like you said on the beach and restaurants? And it's so creepy. It's freaking weird. So some of these Polaroids were also found inside Roy Norris' house, along with Shirley Ledford's bracelet. Investigators also seized their GMC van where they discovered the infamous toolbox that led to the duo's serial killer nickname, the toolbox killers. They also discovered

some of the women's jewelry and most disturbing of all that audio tape they'd recorded of Shirley ledfords death. Remember Shirley was 16 years old, which her mother later confirmed was, in fact, Shirley's voice. Which think of that sentence I just said. Yeah, I can't. That's something no one should ever have to experience. With all of this evidence, Roy and Lawrence were both facing the death sentence.

However, authorities gave Roy an opportunity to trade this possibility for 45 years to life behind bars if he agreed to testify against Lawrence Bidaker. And I think they did this because Roy easily confessed and also they felt like Lawrence maybe had been the aggressor of the two or at least more aggressive than Roy. I'm not defending Roy at all here, but this is why he was offered a deal. And he had to show them where the other bodies had been left. Roy accepted the plea bargain and led officers back to that deserted road in the San Gabriel Mountains. On February 9, 1980, search parties found out eventually coming across two sets of remains. Jackie Gilliam, whose skull was still impaled by that ice pick.

And Jacqueline Lamp, who'd clearly suffered blunt force trauma from that sledgehammer. Andrea Hall and Lucinda Schaefer, however, were never located. Still it was enough to solidify the charges against both of the men. Roy Norris pleaded guilty to four counts of first degree murder and one count of second-degree murder. As promised, he was given 45 years to life with the possibility of parole. Lawrence Biddaker, however, denied all the charges. There were about 26 of them ranging from murder to kidnapping to sexual assault to illegal possession of a firearm.

That's hilarious that like, dude, what's the point of even denying the charges at this point? It's such a comical. The pictures were found like evidence of you torturing these girls were found in your apartment. Yeah. What a what a loser. His trial began in January 1981, but Lawrence didn't take the stand until February 5th. That day, he denied having anything to do with Lucinda Schaeffer's kidnapping and murder. He also claimed that the sex between him and his other victims was consensual and blamed all of the murders on Roy Norris. Problem was, Lawrence had left one critical piece of evidence behind. That audio tape he'd made

of Shirley Ledford's torture and murder. Remember, he's the one doing it. Yeah, his voice isn't it. Yeah. That piece of evidence was all the jury needed. Lawrence Bittaker needed to be sentenced to death. He was found guilty on all charges, and his execution date was set for December 29, 1989. All right, all right.

But as we know, between appeals and other holdups, Lawrence's date kept getting pushed back over the next two decades. However, for those investigating the toolbox murders, the job was far from done. Remember that police had discovered hundreds of women in those Polaroid photos, which meant it was very possible the toolbox killers had more victims out there. It took months, but detectives were able to track down about 60 of those women to find they were unharmed. But there were at least 19 of them that were listed as missing persons. Wow. 19 of those girls in those photos were missing. How many they found? Do you know? Well, the problem was there was nothing tying any of those women to the crimes other

than those Polaroid photos. Yeah. And no way to say for sure if they fell prey to the toolbox killers after those photos were taken. When criminologist Laura Brande heard about the case, she was disturbed by the fact that two of the confirmed victims still hadn't been located, Andrea Hall and Lucinda Schaeffer. So Laura did the unthinkable. She reached out to Lawrence Bidocker in prison and asked if she could interview him. And at first Lawrence declined, but eventually he gave in, likely eager to have some form of visitor. Laura hoped to win over the trust of Lawrence by getting to know him, learning what made

him tick, and she was shocked to find that he was rather sheepish and a timid man. She expected someone cunning, manipulative, or at the very least aggressive. During one of their meetings, Laura asked Lawrence point blank, what makes you a serial killer and not me? His response was, some people wanna eat broccoli and some people don't. The statement was so reductive,

it sent a chill down Laura's spine. Still Laura spent the next five years getting to know Lawrence, learning about his criminal history and what his plans were for the future before he got caught. He described the macabre ways he planned to torture his victims and his next crimes using acid and underground layers. He also told her he'd made his first kill at age 18, although if true he was obviously never caught for that. Laura also found that Lawrence was terrified of getting IVs when he needed treatment in prison. She found the whole thing so baffling and hypocritical.

How a man who could place an ice pick between a girl's ears was unable to get a needle in his own arm. But eventually, Laura's plan of co-zying up to Lawrence actually worked. She got him to open up about the location of Andrea and Lucinda's bodies. And in the fall of 2019, he began drawing her maps to the missing victims. But in December of that year, Lawrence Biddaker, who was still on death row, died of natural causes at age 79. Two months later, the 72-year-old Roy Norris also died in prison. Oh, that's kind of interesting.

Who incidented over there. Meanwhile Laura Brand was left with his final and somewhat incomplete piece of evidence. The maps weren't exactly clear enough to lead her right to the victims. She would certainly need a team and additional help. How far Laura got in her search is a bit unclear, but as of 2021, the bodies are still missing. We don't know how many other women might have fallen prey to the toolbox killers before they were caught. But I do know that one reckless piece of evidence,

that audio tape, has become a crucial tool in stopping future killers like them. Today, Shirley Ledford's final moments are played for students at the FBI's Academy in Quantico, Virginia. They've been using it as a way to desensitize agents for what they're going to see out in the field and reveal some of the inner workings of serial killers as sadistic as Lawrence Biddaker and Roy Norris and that is the toolbox killer's case. That's crazy that he did that because, I mean, I guess it's just a modern,

old version of people that film these days. Oh yeah, but I think because it was such a solid piece of evidence, I mean, it was huge in trial. I didn't really go into it, but it was a huge piece of evidence in the trial and for the jury to hear it, it was just devastating. Like, Jury members could barely stomach it. I think it kind of turns off future killers from collecting that kind of evidence. You know what I mean? Like, hopefully it's an example of, well,

if I don't want to get caught, I probably shouldn't. Dang, I wonder how that's so sad. And I want and who knows how many people he killed. Well, because of... I mean, 19 girls in those plural rides won't miss anything. I think we'll never know. That's crazy. Okay, you guys, that is our case for this week. We will check in next week to let you know how the live show went and to tell you another episode. I love it.

I hate it. Goodbye.