Murder With My Husband - 9. Hinterkaifeck Murders - The Axe Slaughter

Episode Date: May 13, 2020

In this episode of Murder With My Husband, Garrett and Payton cover the Hinterkaifeck Murders. This German true crime case is an unsolved murder of an entire family. Please excuse the pronunciation throughout the case, we sadly don't speak German. LIVE ONLINE SHOW TICKETS HERE! https://www.moment.co/murderwithmyhusband Follow us on our media platforms at: https://linktr.ee/murderwithmyhusband  Case Sources: https://allthatsinteresting.com/hinterkaifeck-murders https://www.ranker.com/list/hinterkaifeck-farm/cat-mcauliffe https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/502044/chilling-story-hinterkaifeck-killings-germanys-most-famous-unsolved-crime https://www.unsolvedcasebook.com/hinterkaifeck-murders/ https://darkideas.net/true-crime-articles/from-the-dusty-archives/the-hinterkaifeck-murders-horror-on-a-bavarian-farm/ Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/murderwithmyhusband) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Music Welcome back to the... Welcome back to that. Welcome back. Hi everyone. Welcome back to our podcast. This is Murder with My Husband. I'm Peyton Moreland. And I'm Garrett Moreland.

And he's the husband. I'm the husband. Does anyone else dance to our intro song or is that just me and Garrett every single time at place? Probably just us. It's catchy. It is catchy. I like it. I like it too. Okay, so I anything

you want to go for? I don't think so. I'm trying to think. I don't think so. I think I have anything specific. Thanks to all of our listeners, I guess. Okay, awesome. Let's jump right in. I'm just going to give credit to the sources. I had all that's interesting.com, rinker.com, mentalfloss.com, unsolvedcasebook.com, and dark ideas.net. Dark ideas.net. I know, that's kind of sketched out a little, but it looks more like a blog. It sounds like you were in the dark web. I know.

That's crazy. Kind of scary. But no, it was actually like a really good website. I got a lot of the information from that one. So yeah crazy. Kind of scary. But no, it was actually like a really good website. I got a lot of the information from that one. So yeah, this is, okay, first of all, some of the, some of the best sources in this, from this case are actually German sources because this is a German murder and I obviously couldn't read them because they were in German.

So a lot of the sources I used were American, so please tell all, and by all I mean our only German listener, forgive me if some of the details weren't translated over correctly, because apparently this murder is very well known in Germany and is infamous in Germany. It's kind of similar to how the zodiac killer or Ted Bundy is to America. It's like their big case. And like Payton just said, we do have a German listener.

So if there's anything you want to add or, I don't know, anything. Please tell us if we got details wrong because like I said, the translation over is probably hard. But this is, and I, once again, in warning you, I am most likely going to slaughter every single German word that I say. So I'm just going to sound it out like it's spelt. And let me know if I'm wrong if you speak German or if you're from Germany. Do you think all countries have, like, famous murders that we don't know about?

Oh, yeah. How we're familiar, we, you are familiar with the famous murders. Like you've heard of the zodiac killer, you've heard of Ted Bundy. Yeah, I've heard of Ted Bundy. You don't know the zodiac killer. I've heard the zodiac, I've heard that before, but you don't know what he did.

I don't know what he didn't know. Oh my gosh. Maybe I'm just not cultured. You uncultured slime. I knew you were gonna say that. That's so embarrassing for you. That is kind of sad. I'm like, youd. You're a cultured swine. I knew you were gonna say that. That's so embarrassing for you. That is kinda sad. I'm just kidding.

You'd think I would know actually, I'm gonna have heard the Zodiac Killer but I don't know the thing about it. You're like movies about it. That's why I've heard it. Oh. Okay, anyways, this is the Hinter K. Fec murders. There you go, that's all, that's what I think.

It sounds good to me. Okay. So, H's all, that's what I think. Sounds good to me. Okay. So, Hinterkfeck was a farm that was located north of Wade Hofen, 50 miles north of Munich in Germany. I know Munich, so it's 50 miles north of Munich. The farm was settled just on the outskirts of a village named Gorban. So there's this village and then the farm's kind of like on the outskirts of it. And between the two was a cluster of trees that was called Witches Woods. And I just had to add that detail because it's not even important to be caped at all, but Witches Woods, they lived right next to Witches Woods. And before we continue, in case you guys were wondering why paint has now been very excited about witches twice in rows because

She kind of likes witches. I don't know how to say it. Not in a weird way. I'm not saying I'm a witch But I'm also not saying I'm not a witch. Well, I have not a witch I just fill it in my soul. Okay, let's go. In March of 1922, the family that lived at the Hinter K-Fec farm consisted of Kazzilia and Andreas Gruber, who were married. Kazzilia had inherited the farm from her former husband. People think that this is actually what attracted Andreas to Kesilia, considering she had nine years on him. Caesilia at the time being 72 and Andreas being 66. Why does it matter though? Does this just let people love who they love, who cares if there's 20 years in between? Am I right? Yeah, exactly.

There only surviving daughter Victoria, who was 35 at the time of this story, was also living at the farm that she had actually now inherited from her two living parents. So like in the US, normally you don't inherit something unless the person who owns it has passed away and left it to you, but her parents are living and they gave her the farm, but they still live at the farm with her.

We're in 1922, so like families also live together and stuff like that. Victoria also had two kids, Kazzilia Jr., who was seven, and Joseph, who was two, and they also lived at the farm with their single mother. Maria Baumgartner, who was 44, had also just been hired as a new maid for the family.

So Andreus the father did not have a very good reputation around town. He was known to be argumentative and rude. And it was rumored that Victoria, Casillas and Andreas old-doll daughter, had actually had two sisters growing up. But at the hands of the dad, Andreas abuse, the other two sisters didn't survive

to adulthood like Victoria, leaving her and only child. So they had three children, but at the hands of the abuse, he killed two of them. But Victoria doesn't know this right now, correct? No, she's 35. Oh. They're all adults that the mom's like 70

and they're all living at the farm. So she knows that she had the two other sisters. But their dad, their dad just had a bad reputation and he was crazy. Wow. Yeah, I don't know. I don't, I mean, I don't understand how he could not be in prison. Yeah.

If they died at the hands of the abuse, but they didn't give any details. So. I also don't know how strict I guess if that's the right word, our justice system wasn't the 20s. Well, we're in Germany. Yeah, but yeah, but still. Just in general, in the 20s? Well, we're in Germany. Yeah, but still, I guess. Just in general, in the 20s, I don't know how strict they need. Plus World War I was going on.

True. If that makes a difference, but that's a good point. So it kind of seems like this farmhouse was an unhappy and turbulent one long before the events that unfolded in 1922. Victoria had gotten married to a man named Carl Gabriel and bore her first child, Kazeela Jr. with him. He went off to World War I soon after and supposedly died in battle, leaving Victoria a widow and single mother. She became fond

of a neighboring man to the farm named Lorenz Schlittenbauer. That was in bad, I feel like I feel like I could get on that one. And she planned to marry him. Victoria's father, Andreas, stepped in and forbid the marriage, leading to the breakup of her and Lorenz. Victoria found out she was pregnant, shortly after, with her son Joseph, and things got pretty complicated for her at this point. Lorenz Schlittenbauer's name was on the birth certificate of Joseph, and Victoria claimed that he was the father. The problem with this was,

Lorenz would go back and forth claiming he was, and then that he wasn't. On the times that he didn't want to be Joseph's paternal father, he told people around town that Victoria's own dad, Andreas, was the actual father of her son. Oh my gosh. This isn't too far off because back in 1915 only one year after Victoria's husband was killed in action both Andreas and Victoria were

sentenced to prison for incest. Andreas serving one year and Victoria serving one month. I guess it makes sense then the whole sexual abuse thing you're Abuse thing you were talking about earlier with the other two sisters. Mm-hmm. Wow. So at this point Like everyone around town doesn't know who Joseph status because these two have gone to prison already for having an Incessial relationship well into their adulthood years. I mean he's 60 and she's 35 yeah, and years. I mean, he's 50 60 and she's 35. Yeah. And so when Lorenz is like, Oh, no, we broke up because of him, but also that's not my kid. That's Andreas's kid. Then people are like, Oh, they do, they're still doing it, you know, yeah. It was said that Victoria had actually paid

off Lorenz behind her father's back to claim that he was the father to even go as far as putting his name on the documents. Wow. So yeah, she was like, Oh, I don't want to's back to claim that he was the father to even go as far as putting his name on the documents. So, yeah, she was like, oh, I don't want to go back to prison or I don't know the reason, but people said, oh, she was just playing Lorenz to be the father on the birth certificate and to tell people that so others didn't know about her relationship with her father. So, a lot of this next information came from Dark Eye Dizz.net. Nice. So on March 31st, 1922, this complicated family turned down for the night, not realizing the tragedy that was about to accompany them. The newly hired maid, actually, this was her first night, in fact, Sagabite, her sister,

and turned down for bed. So they just hired her that day. Sorry, Sagabite, her sister. So her sister, sorry, that was confusing. Her sister had been over at the house. Got it. The farmhouse. And then she left. I think she was helping her. But this made was a live in made and the sister was going to go home. So they had two mates. I think so. I think that the sister was helping her. Got it. But this she was like going to sleep at the house. And this was their first night. Okay.

So around 11.30 p.m, a neighbor walked past the farmland, noticed that the outside oven on the property was lit, running and smelled awful. So it's like 11.30 and he's walking by and they, you know, how they used to have like outside ovens and stuff. So it was like lit and going and then it just smelled so bad. And then around 3.30 a.m. A cyclist who was heading home from his night shift ran into two teenage boys who he said were acting suspiciously.

There was no further comment on that. As the morning came around, two cells men hit up the farm, but no one answered. The postman stopped by and left the male at the door. The next day was Sunday and it was unusual that the family didn't actually show up for church that day and it didn't go unnoticed. When Monday rolled around and seven-year-old Kazzelia didn't show up for school, people around town started talking but neighbors reassured everyone that there was smoke coming from the farmhouse

chimney and that the farm animals were being fed and that the family must just simply be keeping to themselves for some reason. It's strange that no one would just go over and knock on the door and see what's going on. Yeah, I don't know. So, I mean, it's only been two days. So as the postman came around that day, he actually noticed that Saturday's Mel

had still not been brought inside, which he thought was weird. And then the next day, a repair man showed up to the farm for a previously scheduled job. He waited for a while for someone to let him in, but no one came. And the only thing that was happening was the farm's dog was running around and barking and like they'll be yard or whatever. But after an hour passed from their like time that they were supposed to start, and no one showed for their scheduled appointment

He just made his way into the shed that he knew he was supposed to be repairing and just did his repairs like he was like I guess I'm not gonna talk to him when I'm just gonna go and into it So when the repairman finished his work He began his walk back to his car and he noticed that the farm's dog had had been tied up to a post and that the barn door Was closed that he had previously seen open when he showed up that the farm's dog had been tied up to a post and that the barn door was closed that he had previously seen open when he showed up. So he yelled for someone like, they're here, like obviously someone took care

of this while I was gone, so he yelled and no one answered. Also, someone's obviously there because the dog moved. Yeah, and the neighbors have seen the fire going. They've noticed that the farm animals are being fed. Weird, okay. Jumping into an ad and it is native.

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Okay you guys, we are getting into an ad. I know you guys have both heard the story about how Garrett and I were both paying separately for peacock, and then we used rocket money and realized how dumb we are and are so happy rocket money helped us stop doing that. Rocket money is a personal finance app that finds and cancels your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending and helps you lower your bills all in one place. And like Payton said, I'm always on it, checking things out, seeing what's going on, seeing how many Amazon packages Payton are buying. Is that how you find out about my Amazon packages? No, I just get emails. My email. Over 3 million people have already used Rocket Money saving the average person of the 720 lbs a year. Imagine what you could do with that extra

cash in your pocket. Stop throwing your money away, cancel unwanted subscriptions and manage your expenses the easy way. By going to rocket money dot com slash husband. That's rocket money dot com slash husband, rocket money dot com slash husband. So the same two salesmen that stopped by at the farmhouse a couple days earlier stopped by at the neighbor's house, Lorenz, slot and Bowers house and mentioned that the quietness that they had experienced at the farm, Lorenz, feelingtenbauer's house, and mentioned the quietness that they had experienced at the farm. Lorenz, feeling suspicious at this point, noticed seeing that, okay, I know we've seen

smoke, but like, it's been a couple days, like, I think it was like almost a week now and no one's seen actually them. So he gathered two other neighbors together and walked the short distance to the farm to check on the family. When the search party showed up to the farm, they found that the main house was locked, so they went to the barn, knowing that they could get into the main house through the stalls. As they walked through the barn, they noticed a foot sticking out of a pile of hay that was in the corner.

No way. Lorenz, completely unbothered, uncovered the foot and discovered Andreas' body. Upon further searching in the hay, he also uncovered the bodies of Caesilia, senior, Victoria, and Caesilia, junior. So all four of them were dead, covered up in the hay and the barn. But that's confusing, right? Because the animals and everything we're still being taken care of. Okay. So realizing once discovering them, that little two-year-old Joseph wasn't with them in the barn, the trio went through the stalls and into the farmhouse.

So apparently like the farm connected to the farmhouse, and if you went through the stalls, you could get in through door that went to the kitchen of the farmhouse. So they go in and they walk straight up to Victoria's room, and they find that Joseph was dead in his crib. He too had been covered up, but not with, hey, with one of Victoria's dresses.

Okay, so every single person the family has now been killed. Correct. Okay, I just wanna make sure I got that right. Keep in mind, Lorenz that's found them is also the dad that's written on the birth certificate. Yeah. So unaware that the family had hired a new maid that night. Lorenz was surprised when he,

upon further searching the house, comes across Maria Bumgartner's body and it too had been covered up this time with that sheet. So she was dead in there too? Mm-hmm, on her first night being hired. And her first night sleeping there. Sucks as her sister's gonna come back and see that she's dead as well. Yeah, man

And I mean like the sister obviously didn't come back So maybe she didn't actually work at the farm every single day. I just know that night she had been there with her. Yeah, so Lorenz offers to stay at the house while the other two neighbors go run to the police because you don't have cell phones or anything And so they had to actually run into town to get the police. So once the police showed they quickly called in more advanced police from Munich. This type of brutal murder especially in the midst of World War One was completely overwhelming and devastating to this small town. So the cops were like, yeah, I can imagine. They called in the Munich police which were a little bit more advanced. All the

30 going on and the Munich police took which were a little bit more advanced. All the 30 going on. And the Munich police took five photos at the crime scene that you can still go back and see. And this is in 1922. And so that's crazy because back in that day, they didn't take photos. Yeah, I was gonna say, so five photos is probably a lot. Yeah, because it's crazy now because they record

like on video and then they take hundreds, even thousands of pictures now at crime scenes, depending on what the scene is. Yeah. So when they wrapped up at the house, the police assumed that maybe this was just a robbery gone bad. The autopsy confirmed that all the victims had been killed with a maddoch, which is basically a pickaxx. This was truly a slaughter. Every single person in that family was killed with an X. Oh, I'm just trying to think because, I don't know, I mean, there's five of them.

I'm surprised that he was able to kill all five of them, right? Exactly. So the police think that too. Okay. So, Kazzilia the elder had signs of strangulation and seven blows to the head. Andreas had been attacked to the face. So, Kazilya was to the back of the head and Andreas was to the front of the face. Victoria's skull had nine wounds and her face had been hit with a blunt object.

I'm thinking maybe the handle of the pickaxe because it wasn't the axe itself. It was a blunt. It sounds like every single one of them was hit multiple, multiple times. Cazilia, Jr. the seven year old, she had been sliced in the jaw and the neck. Okay. Well, I know while the older victims died instantly from their severe wounds, the doctor concluded this seven year old

Cazilia, most likely fell down after being struck near her family's dead bodies and then actually died several hours later from shock. She laid there still alive because her wounds weren't fatal and laid next to her dead family members for seven hours and the only reason they know this is because they found clumps of hair in her hands, concluding that she was in so much shock or stress or like in such a bad place that she started ripping out her own hair. Oh, that makes me sick.

I know. So Maria, the maid, had also been hit in the head, the back of the head. And Joseph, the two-year-old boy boy was hit in the face. I find this weird because when predators normally cover their victims up after they kill them, it usually means that they're showing signs of remorse or inability to face what they've done. So for the killer to not care, which way his victim was facing when he hit them

with a pickaxe is strange to me because he couldn't look at the victims after he had done it, but during even to a two-year-old, he didn't care that it was their face that he was shoving an accent to. That makes sense. Normally, I would think they would turn them around, flip the baby over because you don't want to look at the face, destroying someone's face. Yeah, so my initial response would be, it must be someone that's angry at them. That's like, that's a really upset.

That knows them, right? That's what a lot of people think. So my Payton's conclusions on this is that maybe there were two people, one who did the killing and then one who cleaned it up. Because then they put, because that would make, if they didn't actually do the killing,

they might actually, okay, I'm going to cover them up with the hay, they were all lined up in and line covered in hay and I'm going to cover them made and I'm going to cover the two-year-old because the, the killings don't seem remorseful. Yeah. They don't, they don't show, like, the fact that they didn't care if someone was, if they were destroying someone's face doesn't show remorse to me. Okay, that makes sense. The granted, I'm sure there's exceptions and certain murders, but yeah, that totally makes sense. The police also conclude that it looks as if each family member had been lured to the barn one by one, like you said. How could that have been? I swear, all these are like movies, or not all these, but there's another another one that's it seems like these murders that are older are more

Movie-ish if that makes sense to me and I think some some part in that is that the stories get exaggerated as the time Right, yeah, but I mean so the police are sitting here going There was no defensive wounds displayed on any of the family members, which means not one of them fought back. But within acts, how did he kill four people without one of them fighting back? So they think in their head, for sure, they were lured one by one out of the house to the barn. Which would make sense. To be slaughtered, because there's no way, unless there was more than one killer,

or there was more than one person there. Okay, yep. So the kids' wounds also showed no remorse. They were just, they were hit just as hard if not harder than the adults. That's horrible. I know, which also makes me think that they knew them because it kind of feels like that's an attack

against Victoria to me. And well, what kind of surprises me, though, is by the mate dead. I mean, maybe it's just because they didn't want her to tell anybody. You're literally saying every single thing that the cops are thinking. Yeah, man, maybe I'm a detective at heart. So the pick the pickaxe that was used was found much later in the floor boards of the house, and it matched all the wounds. So they did end up finding the murder weapon.

Okay. The initial report, what? Which, sorry, babes in a wrap, which is weird too, that the murder weapon is there. Because why wouldn't, okay, I'm just going to keep listening. Go ahead. So the initial report of robbery made less and less sense as the investigation went on. There were very valuable things left in the farmhouse, and the only room that looked like it had even been picked through it all was victorious. So at first they concluded robbery, but then as the investigation goes on, they're like, feels a little bit more personal than robbery. Police think that whoever had committed the murders knew the family. They came to this conclusion after discovering that the suspect had stayed and lived in the house for almost four days after the murder

They had taken care of the animals. They had done the farm chores. They had started fires in the fireplace etc. They knew that's right etc etc They knew whoever did the killings knew their way around the farm and what to do Yeah, which makes you feel, okay, they knew the family because they knew that the cows needed fed at this time. They knew that this needed happen. You know?

Yeah, exactly, 100%. And it's also weird that someone would stay and live there for four days. Yeah. So, some people debunk this theory though, stating that if it was someone local who knew the family, four days would be way too long to come up with an alibi. That's true. this theory though stating that if it was someone local who knew the family four days would be way too long to come up with an alibi. That's true. Like if you're

missing for four days in your local resident people would have known. I also was thinking about if someone was really living there I feel like they could have just entered the door when the people were there and said hey I'm just filling in or I don't know whatever it is to try to make it last longer. One thing I thought about that I couldn't find in any of the sources was, why didn't they bring the melon? Yeah, it's an exactly. It almost feels to me like they weren't trying to like make an alibi for the family.

They weren't trying to cover up. Nope. Like, oh, I'm going to start a fire so people think the family still are. I think they were like truly just living there. Yeah. Like, I think they just like truly just living there. Yeah. Like I think they just didn't have anywhere to go. I mean whoever did it, they obviously sounded a little crazy. So I'm sure that he didn't care about the whole alibi situation.

But exactly the male answering the door, all of that. Another thing that could debunk, they knew them thing, is that they also find the fact that they covered Maria up as well would be contradictory if they knew the family because they wouldn't have known her so why would they have been remorse there. I'm not sure about these theories. This is just what's scouting around. So I'm just letting people know.

Upon further investigation, police found evidence of some strange happenings that had actually occurred before the murders. Andreus had told neighbors days before the murder that upon arriving home, the family had found fresh footprints in the snow that led from the forest. I think it's the witch forest, that led from the witch forest to the house, but no footsteps retreating back to the forest.

So the whole family comes home right from, I don't know what they're doing, maybe eating it, red robin or something. And then they come home and they come home, the whole family comes home right from, I don't know what they're doing, maybe eating it, red robin or something. And then they come home and they're like, oh, look at those footprints, they're coming from the forest to the house and there's no footprints that leave. So they search the house and they don't find anything. Yeah, that's weird. They also said that the reason they needed to hire a new maid was because the old maid that had been doing

all their stuff quit. Right before the murders, after claiming that the house was haunted and that she could hear voices coming from the walls. They had also heard footsteps in the attic, but every time they would go up and check they could never find anything. Andreus also claimed to have found a newspaper in the farmhouse that he didn't buy. And their second set of keys to their property had gone missing days before the murder. This sounds like a horror movie. Just so everyone knows, I hate, hate, hate, hate scary movies. I just

don't, I don't enjoy them. I don't really love on me there, but I don't mind watching them as much as Garrett does he won't watch them. Yeah. Um, the key thing matters because the pickaxe used in the murder was actually locked up in the tool shed that those keys would have needed to open. So these keys go missing and then the murder weapon is actually locked in. But these keys go missing and then the murder weapon is actually locked in. But these keys go missing days before they're murdered. But how do you know that? Because Andrea is told the neighbors.

Oh, I got it. Okay. So all of these facts mean that most likely whoever did the killings had actually been living in the attic of the house for at least six months if you go as far back to the old maid's accounts of the haunting. I was going to say maybe it was Andreas, but if they think that someone there's no way it could have been him. Oh, so they did, they do, they go, maybe it's like a murder suicide, right? Like maybe he killed his whole family and then suicide, but they discover that all of

the wounds on every single one of them could not have been self-inflicted with the pickaxe. Oh, okay, I got it. So they ruled that out pretty fast. Okay. that all of the wounds on every single one of them could not have been self-inflicted with the pickaxe. Oh, okay, got it. So they rule that out pretty fast. Okay. But they do think after going through all this, whoever had done the killings, lived in the house for four days after,

but also lived in the house for months beforehand without them knowing. So creepy. That is like my biggest fear. It's so creepy. My biggest fear. So more than 100 suspects were questioned after like they finished looking through all of the evidence and they even questioned the teenagers that the cyclist ran into that

night. They questioned like everybody basically. Police checked out every rumor and suspicion that rang through the town after the brutal murders. One of the most popular theories that seems pretty out there to me is the theory that Victoria's original husband and father to Cazilia Jr., who had passed while serving in the war, had actually not died and had come back for vengeance after hearing about Victoria's second baby with either her father or Lorenz. Okay. So he being presumed dead, lived in their attic for months

because no one thought he was missing. Like he was just... But didn't you say they went and check the attic? Yeah. So I wouldn't you see somebody in there, right? I mean, I don't know unless he was hiding. Yeah, I guess, but I feel like... I mean, the farm was kind of big.

Like, the pictures it was kind of big. So I feel like their attic was probably bigger than most. Okay, okay interesting like people Actually were didn't love the family because The wife had inherited that from the 70 year old Kazeela Kazeela Deenier had inherited it from her husband who had passed and it actually like was one of the nicest houses Like making them have the most money but they actually weren't like successful before that. Okay, got it. So before we're just a little jealous. Yeah. Okay. So people think that he being

presumed dead lived in their attic waiting until the perfect day to strike. He would also stay after and take care of the things because he had nowhere to go and he knew all of their daily routines. So weird. So and he would also have had remorse and covered up. So to combat this theory, police searched around his German site that he served in the war and found actual statements from his fellow soldiers that claimed to have actually witnessed his death saying that he had stood on a mine and lots of men had seen him die. Therefore, the police are pretty sure he's dead and that it wasn't him. Okay.

The next theory that was suggested by many people and even the police after reviewing his behavior at the farm is that Lorenz Schlitten Bauer was, I'm like really good at saying that name, I feel like, was the killer. He was the potential father of baby Joseph, and if not, he had lied about it for her at times. He also wanted to marry Victoria at one point, but couldn't because of Andreas. It might have been that Victorian and Dres were in love and using Lorenz as a cover, which would have triggered him or that Victorian Lorenz were in love, but she had chosen to keep her father happy over following their dreams of love.

And so this also could have triggered him. Yeah, I mean, I'm surprised they didn't consider Lorenz earlier. They did. Okay. They did consider him pretty fast. Because I feel like he'd be one of the first people I like. Okay, we need to see if it's this guy.

Because Lorenz had also tried to report their incest pretty fast because I feel like he'd be one of the first people that like, okay, we need to see if it's this guy. Because Lorenz had also tried to report their incest again after Joseph was born. Oh, okay. He went to the police claiming that they hadn't stopped after they had served their type of person and then they now actually bore a baby out of it, but it didn't go anywhere, like they didn't get arrested again. And that's why there was the rumors of her paying a mob. Yes.

Okay. So stories around town's surface so that Victoria was talking about suing Lorenz for child support for Joseph before the murder. And that because his name was on the birth certificate, he owed us money. And I mean, I'm going to be honest, I've seen brutal murders for less motive than that. Yeah. So in the police theories, Lorenz was one of the people to find the bodies and he moved them all extensively like he pulled them all out of the hay. And when they asked him why he had done that, he said that he was looking for his son, the two-year-old Joseph, the son that he claimed multiple times wasn't even his son.

Wasn't with Lorenz to, wasn't Lorenz with two other people. And both of those people went to the police and said that they think he did it. Oh, that's how strange he was acting. Okay. And he also like showed no repulsion at the scene. Like a lot of people that went in couldn't, I mean, it was a, okay, you got killed by a pickaxe.

Like, they said there was brain matter all over the, like, well, there were six people dead. Yeah. And he was like no biggie getting his hands all dirty in it, like no repulsion on his face. And remember that is not a good way to dictate whether someone is guilty or not.

You never know how someone's going to react in trauma, but people still do it and so do the cops. And so like that was something that weirded people out. Thinking if he did it, he'd already seen it. And so he was in that repulsed by and my thoughts, personal thoughts, didn't read this. He only lived like a little bit of ways. So for him to come back and make it look like the family was there by feeding the, you know, like he could have come back and started the fire.

He could have easily, he lived right down the street. I still, I still as much as it's kind of weird that the other people he was with think that he did it. It's still a little strange to me that he was able to kill all of them with just no defense. That doesn't make any sense. He's been a suspect for many years, but he was never convicted of the murder.

It makes sense why there's so many theories behind everything, because there's so many loopholes. Yeah. The last theory is that it was someone that the family didn't know who came across the barn and for whatever reason chose the family to ambush. It's just a random act of killing, which is the scariest thing out there.

Yeah. So there were actually some similar crimes that occurred between 1919 and 1922 close to enough to the family's farm, but this information wasn't actually discovered by police. Police didn't make this connection, but internet sleuths later on, like in more recent years, have gone through German articles and linked the cases. Wow. Like, oh, only 10 miles away, there was two people brutally murdered in their home with

no strings attached. So then, like, it might be just a serial killer. And my heart goes out to those internet sluice. That is so cool. Yeah, that's awesome. They made this connection. Yeah. So, this murder has never been solved.

Then I'm sorry. I know people hate that. But this case has actually been reopened many, many times. And the last attempt confirmed was by a group of new police who claim that they actually have evidence now of who the murderer is, but they refuse to release the information because the suspect has since passed. He's no longer alive. And they're trying to save the family members who still live in the town and who are alive from harassment

Which I actually do respect like make it make sense unless there's her other family members But there's no living family members who need or I don't know But it's not like the family members are killing other people. Yes, they might not even know that they did it and so I get I guess they they haven't like Clear the cases solved it's not solved in their records But they say they know who did it and that he sense he or she I guess his sense passed and they're not gonna tell anyone who it was That's an interesting one. I don't think I can form an opinion on who did it because there's just too many loopholes I know at least anyone in the story. I just don't. I know. I don't know.

That's exactly how I feel. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know what happened the night of March 31st, 1922. I'm sure that there has been exaggeration on the details over the years, but it doesn't take away the fact that that night was a brutal night. Yeah. I truly don't have an inkling on who I think did it, which is rare. Normally I feel like I know. I feel like it might have been random, because like you said, there's just so many loopholes. Whatever it was though, Andreus, Kazilius, Senior, Victoria, Kaziliusas Jr., and Joseph and Maria did not deserve what happened to them that night. And that is a hint or K-Fec murders.

Wow, that was a crazy one. I know. Ann unsolved. Yeah, that was... I just think it's so strange that someone stayed taking care. Yeah, I don't like thinking about that. That's so scary. Like, how scary is this? So remember the repairman I went.

So he was working in a shed that was attached to the barn. Like I looked at a picture of it. And he walked out of the shed and back around. And the barn door was now closed. So he walked past the barn with them sitting in the hay dead. And someone while he was repairing came out and closed the barn with them sitting in the hay dead and someone while he was repairing came out and closed the barn door and tied the dog up and then went back inside.

This is so weird. It just seems also freaky. You know what I'm saying? I know. Like was it one of the witches? I don't know. I know. Yeah, you know what I'm saying?

No, witches aren't bad. You know what I'm saying? I know what you're saying. I know what you're saying. It's weird. It's like, Yeah. That's creepy. I know. I just, I can't imagine that repairman after figuring out, oh crap. Yeah, I'm gonna. They were all dead. I'm gonna get out of here. And yeah, and I he worked in there for like a long time. That's for you. Whoever killed in the house right next to him easily easily could take care of him

Yeah, I know that's crazy and honestly if Lorenz did it he He did a good job covered it up Covered it up even now. I mean he was suspected but like he didn't leave any evidence to show that it was him Yeah, there were no fingerprints on the pickaxe to show that it was him. There were no fingerprints on the pickaxe, which I think is very strange for 1922, because it's only more recently that people have realized the amount of DNA you leave

at a crime scene. So for a crime scene to have absolutely no DNA, it's kind of crazy. And not only was there no fingerprints, wouldn't you just take the pickaxe and... Well, I think they lived, they stayed there after so they just put it in the floorboards. That's right.

Oh, I forgot to tell you, the house was after they cleared the crime scene and everything, they demolished the house. Oh, really? They tore it down and that's when they found the pickaxe because they tore the house down and they uncovered it and the floorboards. So they did try to hide the pickaxe. But in the floorboards. So they did try to hide the pickups. Mm-hmm.

But in the floorboards. I know. Yeah, so the house is not demolished and there's just a little memorial for the family. It's so strange. They would try to hide it in the floorboards. I know. Huh. Yeah.

Kind of crazy. Yeah. Kind of crazy. Yeah. Well, I think we are heading back to our place of living this week, coming out of quarantine to our place of living. What do you want to call it? To our home.

To our home. To our house. Yeah, we're heading back. So we're going to keep doing every Wednesday and every Sunday. Yep. It is a lot, but you know what? We're going to, okay, I say that, but my wife's the one doing all the research and stuff and editing the podcast.

And also speaking of research, if you guys have any murders that you want me to cover that you've either heard and you wanna hear and Garrett's opinion on or you just want me to cover it, please, please, please send them to me. You can email us, our email link is in our bio. You can just comment it, you can DM me, slide in those DMs, because sometimes I'm gonna be honest,

like I'm pretty picky about the murders I've been doing, I want them to be a good story, which is probably why Garrett's like, oh, these are always like a movie, because I'm trying to find murders that are like that. And so it kinda does take me a long time to find a murder that I think is good enough to cover. And so if you have one, please let me know. Yeah, so send it our way.

Yeah. Or her way. Yeah. And follow us on social media. We're at Murder with my husband on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter. And I think that's it. I love it. And I hate it.

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